NEWBIE 1693 />_ TO_ARCHIVE

[Pants98]

VOTE: PhantomColbat

Did scum really claim at the start of the game.

[Pants98]

I honestly really doubt that scum claimed at the start of the game.

.

Why would he have claimed scum then? It's either a townie who has no idea how to play this game. Or a noob scum. Noob scum is more likely.

[Pants98]

Why would he have claimed scum then? It's either a townie who has no idea how to play this game. Or a noob scum. Noob scum is more likely.

He is provably not brand new at the site, so both of your theories seem to have a hole in them - does that concern you?

Not really. Why should it?

[Pants98]

Why would he have claimed scum then? It's either a townie who has no idea how to play this game. Or a noob scum. Noob scum is more likely.

He is provably not brand new at the site, so both of your theories seem to have a hole in them - does that concern you?

Not really. Why should it?

Unvote: Grendel
Vote: Pants98

Well, let me break this down, and my reasons for the vote change, which is a very real and meaningful vote, shall be explained therein.

Your claim is that, if he is town, he "has no idea how to play the game"
And if he is scum "he is n00b"

I have a few issues with this.

1. You are actually saying the same thing here - that he is too new to know what to do well, so you are presenting a situation "he is new" admitting it applies equally to his action regardless of his alignment "he is new scum or new town" and then are voting him over it. It would be like if I claimed scum would have a red avatar and town would have a crimson avatar and then voted someone with a scarlet avatar over it - even if I was right, I'm saying nothing (or intentionally faking saying something to look good). I don't buy the concept that "n00b" scum is somehow more likely, especially with the ability to research his other games.

2. I was able to present factual evidence that he is not actually new - attacking the basis of both of your cases. Now, I suppose you could argue he's still "new enough" but, y'know, we can look at his other games (did you?) and assess pretty quickly that, yes, he actually does understand basic game concepts, and is highly unlikely to have made a mistaken claim as scum or to think that is the only way to play as town.

3. You did *nothing* to change you views with this revelation - which suggests to me you're not thinking critically about your thoughts, but are just attacking something that, without thinking about it, looks scummy. It's a safe attack because, hey, he claimed scum! But you don't actually care to think why it's scummy or not scummy - you just care that it superficially looks scummy, and is easy to attack - which makes you look scummy.

1. I don't know what you're point is here.
2. When I wrote that I didn't realize he was an SE. That was a mistake on my part.
3. I'm assuming that this "revelation" that you are referring to is that he isn't a newer player. I no longer believe he is scum. UNVOTE: CP I'm not attacking him. If I was my previous post probably would have attempted to convince you he is scum.

[Pants98]

1. I don't know what you're point is here.
2. When I wrote that I didn't realize he was an SE. That was a mistake on my part.
3. I'm assuming that this "revelation" that you are referring to is that he isn't a newer player. I no longer believe he is scum. UNVOTE: CP I'm not attacking him. If I was my previous post probably would have attempted to convince you he is scum.

1. I'm pointing out that your logic for it being a scum tell is identical to your logic for it being a town tell, and vice versa. Like, i could literally flip around town and scum in your sentence, and it would make just as much (or little) sense as it did the other way around - which means I'm reading it as a fake tell.

2. Why did I need to repeat myself for you to realize this changed things? I feel like you're trying to appease me now that I have a valid case for your scumminess.

3. All you tried to do in your response was duck discussing the logic of your case until I forced you to. That's scum mentality to my mind, I think you knew your case was weak but didn't want to admit it.

1.I don't know the mafia lingo. What's a fake tell?
2. I realized the first time you said it. I was referring to the original post I wrote about PC, not my response to you're question.
3. I hate to do this again but what is duck discussing?

[Pants98]

1. I don't know what you're point is here.
2. When I wrote that I didn't realize he was an SE. That was a mistake on my part.
3. I'm assuming that this "revelation" that you are referring to is that he isn't a newer player. I no longer believe he is scum. UNVOTE: CP I'm not attacking him. If I was my previous post probably would have attempted to convince you he is scum.

1. I'm pointing out that your logic for it being a scum tell is identical to your logic for it being a town tell, and vice versa. Like, i could literally flip around town and scum in your sentence, and it would make just as much (or little) sense as it did the other way around - which means I'm reading it as a fake tell.

2. Why did I need to repeat myself for you to realize this changed things? I feel like you're trying to appease me now that I have a valid case for your scumminess.

3. All you tried to do in your response was duck discussing the logic of your case until I forced you to. That's scum mentality to my mind, I think you knew your case was weak but didn't want to admit it.

1.I don't know the mafia lingo. What's a fake tell?
2. I realized the first time you said it. I was referring to the original post I wrote about PC, not my response to you're question.
3. I hate to do this again but what is duck discussing?

[Pants98]

Sorry for the double post. I think it was a glitch with my phone. I should probably use my computer.

[Pants98]

1.I don't know the mafia lingo. What's a fake tell?
2. I realized the first time you said it. I was referring to the original post I wrote about PC, not my response to you're question.
3. I hate to do this again but what is duck discussing?

1. Seems like your question should be, what is 'a tell', in this instance I am using what is basically defined here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_%28poker%29
Except replace poker with Mafia.

A fake tell means I think you're faking belief in a tell you don't actually buy into.

2. If you realized it the first time I said it, and said it didn't change anything - then why did you unvote just now? My perception was you did so because of awareness of him not being a newbie - but now that doesn't seem to be the case.

3. Replace "duck" with "evade" and I feel my meaning will come across.

1. I understand that I said the same thing twice. I guess I was being stupid when I wrote it.
2. I'll get to this in a minute.
3. I'll also get to this in a minute.



Now it's time for the fun part.





VOTE: Thor665
This is not an OMGUS. I will explain my reasons for this vote below.

A: In post 40 the question you asked and the question you seem to want me to have answered are different. The way you worded it ("does this concern you?") asks if I'm concerned. As in scared or worried. Of course it didn't scare me that two theories I made were wrong. Why would it? But what I see in you're newer posts implies you asked me "Does this change anything?". If you wanted me to answer that question then why didn't you ask it? Of course I didn't tell you that my opinion changed because the answer to "does this concern you?" is not "I don't think PC is scum anymore,". It's either "Yes it terrifies me." or "No it doesn't.". I think you asked me "does this concern you?" because you wanted me to give the answer I did. You tricked me. I gave an answer that didn't change my opinion. You made sure I wouldn't by giving a question that didn't warrant one. After that add a few mistakes I made like saying he is noob scum or noob town instead of just saying he is noob, and you have a pretty solid case that everyone will believe.

B: The vote hopping. First you voted col mongoose without providing any real evidence (and you claimed DayCop but I can't tell if that was a joke). Then you voted Grendel without providing any reason at all. Both of these times we were WAY out of RVS. Then you voted me with the evidence I explained in the A section. I'm not the person who's noticed this"

Unvote Phantom Cobalt

Vote Thor665

My reason for this is while PC may have claimed scrum. Thor has claimed he is a day cop and the set-ups that we have available to say the cop's ability is activated at night for investigation while this may be Metaing a little bit I can speculate that he is trying to draw the heat off of his scum associate by first claiming that I was scum and now has switched his vote to Grendel without much of a valid argument.[/b] So if one or both of them is scum we can quite quickly claim a victory for town.

[Pants98]

*I'm not the only person who's noticed this:

Typo

[Pants98]

Pants is now agreeing that I have pointed out issues with his play that are true and factual.He is voting me because I moved my votes around (which is scummy...how? He doesn't say, apparently movement of votes is inherently scummy somehow).
He is also voting me because when I asked "does this concern you?" I wasn't clear enough that I wanted him to assess how it affects his read - and even though i was right in noting that it should affect his read, yet didn't, because I used the word "concerned" as opposed to "change" it's scummy because...it's unclear what I meant...even though I am correct in noticing it makes no sense that his vote remained.

Very happy with where my vote is right now.

That's all I can think after reading this.

Pants is now agreeing that I have pointed out issues with his play that are true and factual.

A I said earlier: Yes I do agree with you that I said "he is noob" twice. How could I deny that and how does it matter?

He is voting me because I moved my votes around (which is scummy...how? He doesn't say, apparently movement of votes is inherently scummy somehow).

Did you even read the entire thing? I pointed out how the first few times you hopped you didn't provide any reason.

He is also voting me because when I asked "does this concern you?" I wasn't clear enough that I wanted him to assess how it affects his read - and even though i was right in noting that it should affect his read, yet didn't, because I used the word "concerned" as opposed to "change" it's scummy because...it's unclear what I meant...even though I am correct in noticing it makes no sense that his vote remained.

You didn't say it should affect my read until after I responded. As I said earlier your question manipulated me into giving an answer that lets you make me look like scum.

[Pants98]

That's all I can think after reading this.

Yeah, if I was you I'd try to avoid addressing the issues raised there as well.
If I was scum.

A I said earlier: Yes I do agree with you that I said "he is noob" twice. How could I deny that and how does it matter?

It matters because it makes your case equally valid as a case for him being town as a case for him being town - I've said this to you already.
How is that confusing you?

I pointed out how the first few times you hopped you didn't provide any reason.

Ignoring that there are fairly clear implicit reasons for both votes - how was my lack of reasoning scummy in those twonces exactly?

You didn't say it should affect my read until after I responded. As I said earlier your question manipulated me into giving an answer that lets you make me look like scum.

Yes, I understand this is your story.
As I already stated in my last reply post to you - I don't buy it, and I discussed my reasoning. if you'd like to debate that info, I'm willing, but if all you want to do is repeat what I already take as a cover story to me - there's no point. I'm aware that is your initial response, and have responded to it already. I am now at the stage of trying to get other people to look at it and understand it as the scummy dodge I see it as.

"It matters because it makes your case equally valid as a case for him being town as a case for him being town - I've said this to you already.
How is that confusing you?"

So bad case = scum. Seems legit

"Ignoring that there are fairly clear implicit reasons for both votes - how was my lack of reasoning scummy in those two instances exactly?"

We were out of RVS and you gave absoulutely no reason to vote. I have no idea why you are saying you gave a reason.



I don't want to debate that with you. I don't see anything coming out of that.

[Pants98]

In post 89, SugarJan wrote:
Now then, to look at this another way, PC claimed scum and suddenly everyone jumped on him for it. These four players were: Monogarden, Col Mongoose, Micc, and Pants98 in that order. This brought him to L-1 astonishingly fast. There are two mafians in our little group of 9, and I’m pretty sure that at least one of these four would be scum. I claim this because I’ve actually done the exact same thing when I started playing mafia. A cop (who was insane) happened to claim that someone who was a townie was actually mafia. The mafia jumped on the chance to suddenly have so easy of a town lynch and the town turned around and used that against us since that was their plan all along. They got two of my mafian teammates using that method. It’s certainly not to say that I’m certain that I’m correct, but it is certainly a good place to start observing.

Why are you not voting one of these four/questioning their motives if you believe there is a higher than random chance of one of them being scum?

I don't feel that I have enough information to vote for any one of them with the degree of certainty that I like to have.

However...

@Monogarden Col Mongoose Micc and Pants98
Why did you all place votes onto PhantomCobalt? Tell me the real reason and not "I thought he was really claiming scum". I believe someone claimed him as not trustworthy for that if he was town. Why? What about that post (other than the fact that he claimed role blocker) makes him not trustworthy as town?

The real reason is I thought he was claiming scum. I have no clue what else you think it could be.

[Pants98]

I did a bad job reading how to put votes in correctly so my vote never actually went through

VOTE: Grendel

Hope this works better!

Did I miss something? Why are people voting Grendel?

[Pants98]

Monogarden thinks my first two posts are contradictory enough to merit a vote. Cobalt voted me after I said that he is likely to be lynched, and I guess voted me out of annoyance?

Personally I would like some more elaboration from you two on why you both have a case on me. Because both reasons seem kinda vague.

Uh... I don't have a case on you.

[Pants98]

Uh... I don't have a case on you.

No, I mean Monogarden, and Cobalt.

You haven't said anything about me one way or the other until just now. So Why would I ask you?

Derp.

[Pants98]

I'm going to have to do some re-reading. I'll be back in a few hours..

[Pants98]

Micc is scum in my gut

VOTE: Micc

Uh.... wanna provide actual evidence? If you're right why should anyone believe you?

[Pants98]

I'm going to make reads. I'll post them soon.

[Pants98]

I'm a PR you don't want to lynch me

All scum roles have power.

[Pants98]

Alright. If you mess up I will hammer you.

[Pants98]

10 minutes or I hammer you

[Pants98]

2 minutes

[Pants98]

Times upVOTE: PC

[Pants98]

Well I'm at L-2 right now. Not surprised at all.

Well let me make a few points to defend myself.

A: I truthfully thought he was scum when I hammered. I realize I can't really prove this so you just have to take my word for it. I also realize you have no reason to do so.

B: Why would I kill Micc? He was the only person who thought I was town. If I killed him I would have a death wish.

C: And now for the big elephant in the room, the hammer. Now I realize it totally looks like I was taking a free myslynch, but you have to put yourself in my situation. There was a wagon on me and I thought this guy was scum. At least one of the people voting PC (Orange) intended to relocate the vote. I was probably gonna be lynched. Now the reason I only gave him 10 minutes was because I didn't want anyone to come on. I also checked and he was actually online so he should have answered.

[Pants98]

Alright, today is catch up day.

mmmh, i expect scum to be lynched today

*salutes*

Prepare for dissapointment.

[Pants98]

I can't understand 85% of what I just read.

[Pants98]

I can't understand 85% of what I just read.

What don't you understand?

The page and a half of "Lolz" that RC wrote.

[Pants98]

What?!

[Pants98]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

Uh.... RC this isn't what you want to here but I'm a VT.

[Pants98]

I never feel the need. Can you explain why you think Grendel is scum.

[Pants98]

I would prefer to wait for that as well, yeah.

But like if he's not going to produce any content I'd like to see him replaced ideally.

I'm working on those reads you asked for. They should be up today, but if not they will definitely be tomorrow.

[Pants98]

Grendel I would lynch either me or Thor before Mono so that we know exactly what the scum team is.

Though I will still vote them for pressure. I'll probably unvote if someone else votes her.

[Pants98]

Oops I probably should have actually voted her.

VOTE: Monogarden

[Pants98]

Why are you surprised I'm not hammering Thor? I haven't shown any suspicion and if I intended to hammer I would have stated it and given him a chance to defend himself.

[Pants98]

Yeah consider how likely it is that you will get NK's I'd just reveal it now.

[Pants98]

This isn't going anywhere and we barely have two days left. I feel like if Thor really doesn't convince us soon we should just hammer him.

[Pants98]

If Thor hasn't responded by when there is 24 hours left I will hammer.

[Pants98]

UNVOTE: Monogarden

VOTE: Thor

It's been 24 hours and nobody has posted yet?!? Whatever it's done.

[Pants98]

Reads up soon

[Pants98]

RC if you're so set on a Grendel lynch then you should give us the case already.

[Pants98]

RC if you're so set on a Grendel lynch then you should give us the case already.

What happened to your reads that you almost had ready?

20 minutes or lynch me.

[Pants98]

Reads:

Town:

RC: Despite not starting it he was the "leader" of the Thor case which makes him look like town. All of his interactions with Thor support this.

LeanTown:

Grendel: I see absolutely nothing wrong with him. All his posts had good explanations and just seemed fairly pro town. Also he started the Thor lynch which gives him instant town points.

Null:

LeanScum:

While I find Orange himself super difficult to get a read on (he would be null) Col appeared pretty scummy. His reasoning was poor (I'm being generous) and whenever questioned he would come up with the excuse of "Lolz ima newb".

Scum:

Monogarden: While I don't agree with most of Grendel's case on her, I really don't like the way she only voted Thor after Grendel pointed out her inconsistencies regarding him.

So my top scum read is Mono but I won't vote her because that would put her a L-1. I will VOTE: RC until he gives us the Grendel case.

[Pants98]

I have no plans of doing any rereading while you're alive.

Only two people want Grendel to be lynched. If you want to convince one more you need to give us the case.

[Pants98]

UNVOTE: RC

VOTE: Monogarden

Screw it. I'd rather lynch scum than put pressure on someone who won't comply.

[Pants98]

That makes sense. I won't vote until Grendel says something.

[Pants98]

I'm still not voting Grendel. Why bother when Monogarden is scum anyways? Also I would really like to hear something from Orange.

[Pants98]

We haven't heard Orange's opinion on anything related to D3.

[Pants98]

Pants, do you have a reason I'm scum other than my vote timing?

A:To start you and RC are the only people who would benefit from killing Hobbes, and we both know RC isn't scum.

B:On D1 you thought Grendel was scum. On D2

[Pants98]

Thanks Windows 8 for posting while I'm typing something. Let me try that again.

[Pants98]

A:You and RC are the only people who would benefit from killing Hobbes, and we both know RC isn't scum.

B:On D1 you thought Grendel was scum. On D2 you had Grendel as your top town read with no explanation for the change. On D3 you posted this:

Weird ass NK.

Agreed.

VOTE: Grendel

You and Hobbes were my top two choices for Thor's partner. So this makes my first vote easy.

Last time I checked they were tied for your top town read.

C:When questioned about your vote you would always change your vote to what the person who questioned you wants. Like when you voted Thor or Unvoted Grendel. I'm pretty sure you unvoted PC because people were looking at everyone who voted him.

We haven't heard Orange's opinion on anything related to D3.

Maybe he's just sad his buddy got killed.

Orange, seriously though, I'd like to hear where you stand.

If you actually scum read Orange I'm incredibly interested to hear why.

[Pants98]

I won't unvote because no scum should be dumb enough to hammer and think they can somehow avoid being lynched this late in the game. I'll respond to #595 soon.

[Pants98]

On my iPad so I'm not going to quote, but to respond to pants.

A. Walk me through how we benefit? Because he was scum reading me? So was Grendel. I think it's just as easy for scum to kill someone who likes them as it is to kill someone who doesn't. Then they can point to them and say "see, their reads were SO GOOD!!!" Or scum could be hunting for the last power role. Or they could be pointing randomly.

B. On D1 when I voted Grendel, you and he were the two people I wanted to pressure and I voted him since you had a ton of heat already. But I liked the response he gave me, so I backed off. Really, Grendel never did anything to make me suspect up him so much as thors actions did. The refusal of thor to vote him or make a case and Grendel removing his vote once Thor was in danger was what put Grendel on my radar.

I think thor tunneled you pretty hard all D1 and D2, pants. It is very difficult for me to see you as his partner. RC was the one who mostly built up the case on Thor. Possible for him to be hardcore bussing, but I think it's unlikely. That leaves Grendel and orange. And as I said, thors interactions with them. Ames me focus on Grendel.

C. I'll check later when I'm on a computer, but I don't think so. I invoked PC originally because I didn't want him to be hammered on page two. I invited Grendel because I liked his response. The. I out my vite back in PC and held it there through his death. You can check, I don't remember if I voted anyone else in D2 other than Thor. But I as I said, I had already voiced my suspicions of Thor and was just waiting for a vote count to make sure he wasn't at l-1 already. I didn't want to hammer unexpectedly. Once I saw the votes and Grendel removed his, I was free to out mine in and hold it.

The orange comment was a joke

A:I think Grendel explains this pretty nicely:

Hobbes death wasn’t random imo. If you checked what Hobbes said and did yesterday you would ascertain that not only was he leaning town on me, but was leaning scum on Monogarden. Or at the very least thought she’d be a viable scum buddy to his prime suspect Pants. Post 485 is a good example of Hobbes's opinions, and was one of his last posts too.

I think I could believe Mono on scumteam over Orange.

....

As to the whole "Thor/RC/Grendel/Mono" thing, uh...

I like and agree with Grendel's case on Mono. RC still hasn't posted their case on Grendel, so I'm still not seeing any reason to see Grendel as scum. Thor and RC... I'm not viewing either of them as particularly scummy, and honestly I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out what exactly the cases they have against each other are, but I think I'd put Thor as scummier than RC at the moment. Could switch if RC never actually posts their full cases.

So. Pants is still my prime suspect, then Mono, then Thor. Orange, you're fairly null now, slight town lean. RC and Grendel both seem fairly town, but that's a grey area until I know RC's case.

Now with Thor flipping mafia I’m much less inclined to think Pants is scum. The two don’t seem to be a viable scum team to me.

But back to the main point, I’d wager that Hobbes was pretty sure i’m town. Whoever night killed Hobbes didn’t want him defending me today, as at that point Orange, and Pants were getting null reads from me, but Hobbes thought i was fairly town putting me near RC as a town read. So the last mafia wanted to have people around today who weren’t pro-grendel so I’d be easier to lynch. Who was the one who went right after me today? Yep, Monogarden. That, and the fact that Hobbes listed Monogarden as a scum lead of his pretty much solidifies my feelings on Monogarden. Monogarden would have to pull some mighty fine smooth talking to get past my radar at this point. There is nobody else I find nearly as scummy.

B:Why didn't you bring that up during D2? What about Hobbes? Why was he your top town read in D3

[Pants98]

And it happened again. I'll get back to writing it now.

[Pants98]

B:Why didn't you bring that up during D2? What about Hobbes? Why was he your top town read in D2 and in D3 you say he and Grendel were your choices for Thor's partner?

C:That's not what I meant. You never said you were unvoting because people are looking at voters. You would be lynched on the spot for saying that. But I do think its why you unvoted him. When you unvoted Grendel it wasn't because he passed your test. It was because Grendel pointed out that he passed your test but you were still voting him.

[Pants98]

Crap I just saw your new post. If MG is lying I suggest that the real PR should CC now.

[Pants98]

UNVOTE: Monogarden

I don't think somebody will CC. I'm totally out of ideas. Maybe I'll ISO everyone and decide who looks the scummiest. I hate to say it but I think our only option is to lynch Grendel.

[Pants98]

Why do you feel I'm the only option Pants?

Well my original thought was that you were the best option because RC wanted you dead. Now that I think about it I'm going to go with who I've had a gut scum read on since D1:

VOTE: Orange

I'll post an ISO of him soon.

[Pants98]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Grendel

[Pants98]

UNVOTE: Grendel

I don't care what RC says. I did a little thinking and I figured it out. I'll explain later.

[Pants98]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

Probably Pants, and then RC.

How could you possibly think I'm scum after Thor flipped scum?

[Pants98]

VOTE: Orange

Reasons later.

[Pants98]

My laptop is updating so I have to use my phone for a few hours. That's why I can't post anything large.

[Pants98]

What?! Well that was unexpected.

[Pants98]

So we won. I sucked it up pretty bad though.

[Pants98]

@Thor: Thanks! I'm probably going to be more careful with hammering from now on.

@Grendel: Your welcome... I guess? I think you played pretty good near the end of the game.

@ShadowMod: Thanks for modding! Will you release the Night chat?

[Pants98]

Orange didn't you kill Hobbes?

[Pants98]

I mean RC.

[Pants98]

According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyways. Because bees don't care what humans think is impossible