Newbie 1691 - Game Over

[Ircher]

Heklo, I will catch up todqy

[Ircher]

Welcome guys!

Ircher if you're town, I want to see townIrcher from the mini, not townIrcher from the newbie game please.

Agreed, the TownIrcher in the Newbie didn't work out too well.

[Ircher]

UNVOTE: Aero

[Ircher]

I prob. won't finish catching up today, but I'll try.

[Ircher]

You guys post a lot of long posts, but I like it.
I'll give my notes when I'm finished, but I'm currently at the end of 4 I believe.


Current Reads:

UTL, Summer, Aero, KAAG are town.
Ryu, Yawn are a bit scummy.

And I'm null/neutral on everyone else.

[Ircher]

@Mod Can we have like an extra 24 hrs?

Like, I mean you guys really go in-depth. I have literally read only 1 page in the time since my last post. My notes posts is already 20 points in length which is a lot. I want time to discuss my thoughts & for us to debate, so yeah, an ext. would be nice, but I understand if one isn't provided.

[Ircher]

2/3 of the way through. Starting to get quite suspicious about mhsmith's motives, though I have nothing concrete right now on that respect

[Ircher]

Getting close! We need to deal with the lurkers in this game.

[Jackal711]

Spoiler: Newbie 1692 - D1 Catchup Notes

0. Players: Summer, Yawn, mhsmith/fire, Green/Aoto, Egg/Ryu, Ircher/hex, KAAG, UTL, Aero

1. Aeronaut needs a new IC color; one) It's the mod color and 2) It's too dark for me to read (MafBlack theme fyi) (Referenced - 7. Also, under etiquette, you state "Never Self-hammer". While I understand you are the IC and what you say is true as you know it, what I've been taught is that it's ok for scum to self-hammer, just not town.

2. 8 - That color is much better.

Mod Note: For clarity I edited Post 7 to use the purple he's used in all other IC text

3. A wagon is forming already Day 1.....  Ryu votes UTL in 5, Aero votes UTL in 9, and Summer votes UTL in 19. -

Meh, it's a nebie & UTL isn't in danger of being lynched. I just hate wagons that form quickly during RVS. Oh, and on the flip side, wagons may be more dangerous in newbies in case there's that one newbie who doesn't understand you state intent to hmmer before lynching. -

Null-Indicative

4. 22 by Aero asks 3 questions to get the game going. (Bit weird, but not unheard). My responses -

1) Job of Town is to lynch scum. 2) Lurk, opportunistically join wagons, fakeclaim, WIFOM 3) Definitely Aero, though I'm biased, as I replaced in & could see all who was prodded/replaced -

Null-Inicative

5. Aata's responses in 24 - 1) Town start moving (aka, get active, scumhunt, etc) 2) Distract from relevant convo (includes a note about self doing same as Mafia) 3) Gut = Summer for using vote/gif while confused -

I have mixed thoughts here. The first answer makes it seem more likely that Aata is new to the site whereas the third option makes me think he's newer in general. His second answer catches my attn. about how he would do what he said as Mafia, but I would prob. do the same, so null there. Still a -

Null-Indicative

- I guess..

6. Aero votes KAAG in 29 for too perfect of a post. -

I'd say I disagree with Aero and agree with the evidence in Aata's post that KAAG pointed out, but not the conclusion. (Oh, and PS - Drixx was my IC for my first *ahem* real game of mafia (I played 2 small forum, pr heavy games before on a site totally unrelated to mafia) - He was w pretty good IC; firsthand account /comment over) At worse, I'd say KAAG was being opportunistic and trying to frame a newbie for newb mistakes/etc, but I have no reason to come to that conclusion yet. "Too perfect to be town" is not a valid argument as it suffers from the same logical fallancies as "too town to be town" and "too scummy to be scum" do; all of those depend on the player, outside circumstances, luck (as in inspired some days, whereas others you have nothing to say), interest, and many other factors. In other words, unless a player's

meta

strongly indicates otherwise (but do note -- metas can change & metas can be manipulated), there are too many unknowns for anyone to make any conclusion about such a post on that premise aside from null indicative. -

Null-Scum Indicative

7. 35 - KAAG votes Hex for not posting within the first 12(?) hrs of the game despite being an SE -

Before I state further, that's literally what he said: "For no posts yet as SE" (Timestamp = Tues, March 8 6:25 AM) First post was on Mon, March 7 11:49 PM (almost midnight) - So, actually, that's only 8 hrs. RBS or not, that's lousy reasoning for voting a person, as some people may either 1) Be asleep during that time or 2) At work/school. That's why prod guidelines are 48 hrs -- For timezone diffs & so people juggle mafia to their RL schedule. KAAG compounds this poor reasoning by making the assumption that SEs should be more likely to post then newbies. I beg to differ; again, playstyle-relate not-alignment indicative stuff. So, even when making RVS votes, please, PLEASE give it a reason that would actually make some sense. OMGUS is fine. Jokes are fine. Stupid reasons like not posting in

8

hrs is ridiculous. -

Null-Scum Indicative

8.

@Summer in 44 - As Aata is also new(er?) to the game, I find his comment null indicative. Sure, it sounded kinda scummy to me. But, one thing you will learn here is that meta (the way a player plays) can have an adverse effect on how you read a person. Too often, scum get their mislynches in newbies by targeting the player who makes the most newb tells (generally scummy things that newer players tend to do). So with those 2 points in mind, I cannot make a statement on Aata's alignment from that info alone.

9.

@UTL - In regards to 51 - On the contrary, I'd say its null indicative unless you have strong evidence to believe otherwise, as "Too Townie to be Town" is a logical fallancy.

10. Aero mysteriously townreads Ryu in 65 -

I don't see any evidence of you having a townread there, so my question to you (

and I do want an answer

) is why do you have a townread of Ryu at this point. I understand your other reads. The ones I disagree with are Ryu who should be null imo, and Summer who I slightly townread. -

Null-Indicative; Possible Ryu Association (?)

11.

@Yawn in 67 - I have no clue where you get 1/5 from in terms of random lynching scum. Without prs, its simply 2/9; with PRs doesn't change much; 1=1/4 while 2=2/7. I don't like the way you think we are almost guaranteed to mislynch. I actually find it scummy, though I cannot express in words exactly why I find this scummy. -

Null-Scum Indicative

12. UTL votes Yawn in 68 for 1) Defeatist attitude and 2) Yawn thinking pressuring only KAAG / UTL would be effective -

Overall, I concur with UTL, but I would like to address a slight... disagreement I have about point 2. While it's true Yawn could pressure anyone, pressuring someone does not work if that person isn't around to respond. At the time, Yawn must've concluded UTL and KAAG were the two most active, and therefore the best people to pressure. The caveat and why I agree with UTL's reasons in general is Aero was posting a good bit too as was Summer, so pressure applied there would've also been worthwhile. Overall, I'm at the following reads: Town = Summer, UTL, KAAG, Aero; Scum = Yawn, Aata; everyone else is null. -

Towm-Indicative (for UTL)

-

Addendum: 69 is practically where I stand right now, except I townread myself (role pm).

13. In 74, Ryu expresses an FOS (fingers of suspicion; like a vote, but not one) on Yawning Angel) -

Any hopes of a Ryu townread at this point has completely vanished to be replaced by a decent scumread. First, in the post I referenced, I dislike the way it's worded. It seems rather contrived to me, and as UTL/Aero stated earlier, it does not feel like it comes from the heart per se but rather feels opportunistic/bussing in nature. This is compounded by the fact he simply leaves an FOS without any indication that he intends to vote Yawn. Classic scum technique is to throw suspicion on your partner yet not be willing to commit to their lynch (exception = bussing).
Another post I want to look at by Ryu is 72 which probably biased me to think negatively of 74. First of all, he mentions some kind of joke ith UTL (I didn't see it). He also mentions an attempt to fit in. Fitting in is what scum try to do (though I acknowledge that it is a common newbie mistake to assume that to be townread, you have to fit in. They then overfocus on fitting in instead of scumhunting & inevitably get lynched. Don't worry about fitting in per se but rather scumhunt & express your reads. People will pick up on your playstyle pretty quick so you have nothing to worry about). The last sentence of that paragraph makes no sense at all to me: "I'm trying to use my head but at the same time trying to sound organical." Lastly, we have the part about Yawn - Agrees with Yawn only to contradict himself 2 sentences later. Ridiculous! Could be newbie (though this is an SE slot isn't it?) though I'm leaning towards scum when I think about the possible motives behind the posts. -

Scum-Indicative

14.

I'm seeing town motivated posts from Summer, such as 80 and 88 -

Town-Indicative

15. UTL wants to better understand Ryu's playstyle in 94 -

I find this to be more town-motivated as scum *generally* would not make such an effort (unless it's a buddying attempt; kinda like bussing, but opposite) to work with a player. It would be easier for them to form a mislynch case against them, but that's largely my opinion. Just, whenever you make reads like this, don't forget this golden rule:

One size does NOT fit all.

-

Town-Indicative

16. Looking at KAAG's readlist in 98 -

Really like the stuff stated here. Few comments though. First, AtE, while a logically fallancy, is imo null indicative unless you have strong reason to believe otherwise. I have used it in my first two games here, both of which I was town in. I prob. used it some in Newbie 1682 too. In general though, town will prob. seem more authentic in their AtE, but unless you're good at reading the difference, I'd say leave it as null unless that's practically the only thing they've done the entire game. Same goes for defending oneself. The other thing I wanted say is that the style KAAG has used is I believe originated from Ranger (the bracket stuff). Personally, I find it too compact and doesn't express my thoughts (you'll see mine later, but do note that it is color coded and for best results, use the MafBlack theme) but like KAAG said, that's your own choice & the style doesn't matter quite as much as long as the content is there and reasonable. -

Town-Indicative

17. This game looks to be a fun one! Already at 17 & I'm not finished reading page 5 yet. I really like the effort that is going into a lot of these posts; hope this continues!

18. Mhsmith has some problems with UTL's responses to the RQS questions. -

Yeah, I kinda thought about that 1st point for a sec, but ultimately concluded that was simply poor reasoning rathe than scum trying to help themselves. Not the best answer imo, but I can understand a town PoV behind it. As to the other part, I'm kinda bad about doing that when I have no solid opinions about who's scum. Surprisingly, in my first two games here, 1 of the scum was a lurker, so scum do have a habit of lurking more often. Tbh, lurking is again a meta thing & while your point def. holds true about lurkers being easy lynches, town have some incentive into prodding lurkers just as scum do. (In town's case : Not participating = Cannot form read; this lack of info really hurts town imo). Overall, pretty nice conclusions, so I'll start with a townread of your slot. -

Town-Indicative

19. Aero addresses a few points Hexboy had made in Aero's 112 -

I agree with your second part of your explanation (reason why I mention it specifically cuz I didn't understand what Hexboy was saying) and the majority of the post. The only part I have a real problem with is the last part of the post. I dislike how Aero claims Hexboy is being selective for 2 reasons 1) He just replaced in at that point and 2) He was skimming & his computer was low battery. -

Null-Indicative

20.

116 - @Summer - Defending oneself can be seen as a scummy action, as in reaction tests, but my general feeling is it all goes back to that player's meta. Idk Aero's meta, but the way Aero is trying to help town & scumhunt makes me kinda townread him despite the few occasions where he becomes overly defensive. Also, defensiveness def. can come from town, don't let anyone tell you town don't overreact or react poorly to situations. (I got lynched just for that by *idiot* town led by a Werewolf in Micro 590..... Only time I had a PR too.....) -

Null-Town Indicative

21. 119 - KAAG points that TvT occurs all the time. -

Just wanted to say that imho, 90% of all in-thread fights are TvT. -

Null-Indicative

22.

Ah, I love the quote of 121 that UTL quotes in 123. You can be wrong, you will be wrong (at times), and you can still be town despite that. Here, what I think is Motives speak louder than words. If the player seems town-motivated, I give townread and vice-versa.

23.

I'm gonna say this now and you better listen:

Do not use plain spoiler tags (

Code: Select all

[spoiler][/spoiler]

in Mafia games.

1) Some mods consider it as hidden text (I most certainly will)  2) Some people on mobile devices like an Ipad cannot read the blackout text 3) Spoiler= is imo much better and should be used 100% of the time. This is in reference to Aata's 133.

24.

I really, REALLY like how mhsmith is trying to get town to be proactive and accountable. I doubt I'll meet that explanation - I'll prob. get somewhat lazy after this post - but this rings town to me. The more scumhunting, participation, and scrutiny occurs, the harder it will be for scum to blend in & get away with stuff. So yes, could be a scum tactic but more likely town-motivated. -

Town-Indicative

25. Mhsmith has an interesting case against UTL in 142 -

Personally didn't see it that way, but I'll keep that in mind. My meta with scum UTL suggests that scum UTL would be way less active though. - [b}Null-Town-Indicatove[/b]

26.

I agree with the conclusions KAAG came to in 146 -

Null-Indicative

27. KAAG in 153 mentioned that scum can sometimes detract from the game by discussing mechanics instead of the game itself -

Hmmm... Very interesting point, albeit I think I've gone on the theory side quite a bit in this post. Nonetheless, I am going to keep a close eye on mhsmith as mhsmith has done quite a lot of game theory and mechanics posts so far. Still it's an overall townread for mhsmith as mhsmith has presented a scum case for UTL and seems to be scumhunting. -

Null-Indicative (KAAG); Null-Scum Indicative (mhsmith)

28. In 175, Yawn writes "if the balance of my strong player reads are in favour." He later writes in 177, "I mean I'm happy to vote if the balance of my town reads are in favor." -

The clarification is rather vague and makes no sense to me. Skimming through, I see that the "English" translation of what you are saying is in 186 - You have to be clear in what yiu say. It has to be readable for other players and cannot be ambiguous. While occasional typos may alter meanings significantly, you should strive to avoid such. When someone asks you to clarify, restating what you just said verbatim prob. isn't going to help: in fact, clarification is generally requested when someone doesn't understand someone, not because of other reasons. Overall, I'm starting to like Yawn's posts a bit better, but for the parts I highlighted here, it's simply -

Null-Indicative

29. Mhsmith expresses a decent townread of Ryu in 202 (by decent, I mean not weak but not strong) -

I kinda dislike your read here. It reads fairly well to me as towards the town direction, but in terms of it being your top read, I disagree. Ryu hasn't really done anything noteworthy and he definitely has not earned himself a townread. People always get focused on one specific person who really sticks out, in this case it was mainly Ryu with a side of Yawning. So, in other words, I think you are expressing a strong townread on Ryu for non-alignment reasons & I feel that Ryu most certainly shouldn't be your top townread at this point. This is a pre-flip association, but this reads as "Ryu & I are scum. Ryu is under heavy suspicion and has decided to kinda lurk to avoid more unwanted attn. Since Ryu has cast a lot of wifom, I will be able to call the cases on him weak & use this to support an otherwise unusually strong townread on this slot." You said stuff about holding people accountable; I agree and feel you are not holding Ryu accountable for his actions. -

Scum-Indicative

30. Mhsmith is pushing meta arguments against UTL -

First of all, I take this as null for mhsmih. But one thing that I want to initially address, as I think I'm starting to see evidence of this happening forming, is that tunneling aka conf bias is bad for town. Mhsmith seems to be too keen on scum UTL despite her pretty decent defense. The use of meta exacerbate the extent of mhsmith's focus on UTL. Tunneling isn't alignment indicative in most cases, but that doesn't mean it hurts town. Always keep in mind that a player can be town unless the mod specifically tells you otherwise.

Now, as I have recently played a newbie with UTL (who was town cop), I would say that UTL has seemed to take a bit more under-the-radar stance as she did in Mini 1755 (where she was scum). But, I am of the suspicion that D1 is rather weak for her and she truly cannot keep up, so overall, I'm still reading that null. I see a willingness to help which means a good bit to me. -

Null-Indicative

31. 232 - KAAG finally explains something that has been bothering me for a bit but I didn't note -

This is the PRIME example of where ambiguity can be very confusing. What KAAG originally wrote sounded like a contradiction s mhsmith pointed out: it sounded as if KAAG had found the overall motivations to be *at*least town-motivated. This was not what KAAG was saying, but only now does it make sense: What KAAG meant was HBG's motivation for his post was the least towniest; aka the scummiest. -

Null-Scum-Indicative

- for not realizing the ambiguity of the post despite being asked 5+ times.

32. Summer provides a readlist in 234 -

Looks authentic to me, but one thing I find weird is you included UTL twice with two opposite reads of her. Can I ask why that was the case? I have a feeling you were trying to emphasize a point when doing so rather than trying to manipulate/WIFOM us. -

Town Indicative

33.

Food for thought: I think that we can agree that lurking, in general, keeps you out of people's sight. But, could the opposite be true: could posting too much be a tactic to avoid attention. If you post a lot, people are more likely to skim you, and what few mistakes you do make make go unnoticed. Aka, lots of posting can act as a distraction. Keep this in mind, specifically @Mhsmith.

34. Mhsmith continues to push  case against KAAG in 249 -

Which is it: scum trying to push a mislynch or town guilty of confirmation bias? It is quite evident to me though that you still don't understand what KAAG said, which reads a bit.... off to me as KAAG was pretty clear in his latest clarification on that. Your case also seems to revolve around that point, which makes it weak to me. -

Scum-Indicative

35.

I think I'm gonna conclude the latter, cuz of 250. I would say a miracle just happened; I was starting to develop quite a scumread of mhsmith, but mhsmith just totally flipped it. The reaction seems extremely authentic & mhsmith's reactions & interactions with KAAG on this new page are solidifying my town read of KAAG.

36. 269 by Summer -

Reminds of a few situations I've been in here. I don't have any scum meta yet, but really reads to me as newbie confusion. -

Town-Indicative

37. 280 by UTL questions a lot of things Summer has recently done -

All of the points mentioned really read as newbtown. Also, about the pinging of one's radar -- I would take that as a scumread too. -

Null-Indicative

38.UTL's now stuck in a Summer tunnel -

I really, REALLY hope you reconsider. Remember how we dealt with MeNow in our last game together; I would prefer not to see something similar happen to Summer. A lot of the things you've pointed out to me read as newbie: OMGUS, inadvertent contrdicting oneself, general confusion & uncertainty about what to do, etc. I'd advise you back away from your tunnel & reconsider.(/i]

39. In response to UTL's 293 -

I will try. I think I will be a bit more... active & useful here as this one is a bit more interesting.

All spoilered info from me like above is required reading. It has been spoilered for your convenience (so as to keep the thread short), but almost all of the important stuff I say are contained within spoilers. You don't have to read them in their entirety immediately. But, I hold you accountable for whatever I write in them; blatantly ignore them at your own peril!!!

@UTL & Anyone else who this is relevant to: I apologize if I get the gender pronoun wrong. I use "he" generically, partially because it is the shortest. Also, I tend to *ahem* not pay attention to the proper pronouns.

Tada, srry it took so long *blames mhsmith for wall after wall*. I'll post reads later.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
Mhsmith (95%) - A lot of this gets covered in my notes. The thing that really makes me townread Mhsmith though is when he finally realizes what KAAG was meaning to say. He couldn't see it past his tunnel.
KAAG (93%) - Nice early game & is engaged and trying to solve the game.
Summer (92%) - I see Summer doing lots of stuff that either a) I've done myself or b) Are common things newbies do. This is more than just a newbtown read though, I see a willingness to help out and to scumhunt.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
Aeronaut (65%) - The lurking has really dropped my confidence in this read. Overall, you seem to be scumhunting, so I'll lean town for now.
UTL (75%) - Tbh, a bit mixed here, but gut says Utl is town.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Yawn (-40%) - I really want to say this slot is town like Summer, but I don't see the same level of commitment as I do from Summer.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Green (-75%) - Has yet to post; I am very suspicious of a slot that replaces out multiple times. (Njac of Newbie 1666)

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Egg (-90%) - This slot has not been useful at all. I've seen zero scumhunting here and I don't understand why people are townreading this slot.

[Ircher]

While scum could certainly be among the active (Summer, UTL, KAAG, mhsmith); I believe there's w high prob. of one of the lurkers to be scum (Egg, Green). Then, my slot & Yawn & Aero are kinda rpthe so-so activity. Out of all the lurkers, Egg's slot sticks out as the slot putting the least effort in this game. All of the posts the slot have posted (very few btw) have been defensive. Moreso, I don't see any evidence of scumhunting from the slot, unlike Yawn. Aatami/Green is a wildcard sloy imho.

[Ircher]

And, yes, it's a genuine scumread

[Ircher]

VOTE: Green

Egg is already L-2 and quite frankly, a slot that literally does nothing the entire game should be a pretty good clue in a newbie game (elsewhere, its not alignment indicative, but in newbies, scum newbies have a higher replace out rate than anyone else)

[Ircher]

You know, I've known about the ISO button for quite some time now, but I didn't know you could do combined ISOs. That might be something the IC should consider mentioning in future games, as it looks like a pretty useful tool.

Something seems off about Aero, not quite sure what.....

Spoiler: D1 Combined ISO - KAAG & Aero

1.

You know what I find interesting? It's the fact that Aero never answered his own questions in 22.

2. In 29, Aero votes KAAG for the too townie argument -

Speculation -- Pins it on a gut read. Kinda seems like an overreaction; those answers seem sensible from any town player, esp. an experienced one. I'm not pushing associatives here, but you think this is genuine town Aero or scum Aero trying to subtlely misdirect us?

3. 40 - Aero says a post of KAAG's reads as newbie; since KAAG is an SE, sends out red flags -

Even with the combined ISO, I have no clue what you are referring to. All of KAAG's posts read as someone with experience to me imho.

4. Aero votes Yawn in 63 -

I just... don't get the right sort of feel here. The case at first looks decent, but if you look deeper, did Yawning really do something scum would do? The point about pessimistic attitude really doesn't hold up well and the fact Aero paints it as scummy as can be kinda seems strange. I play as I always do, yet I always expect a slightly larger margin of error with newbies because they don't have the on-site experience to guage the proper way of doing stuff.

5. KAAG states he sees town motive in Aero's posts -

I don't know... I'm starting to doubt that view. One thing to keep in mind is that a scum IC is unlikely to make the typical newbie scum mistakes & def. will be hard to catch. While in some ways, it may SEEM town-motivated; I'm starting to get the feeling this a scum IC who is involving town as part of his role as IC.

6.

Anyone else have the feeling that Aero is playing to a scum win con while fulfilling his role as IC? That's what I'm seeing. It may also partially explain why he's been prodded twice (busy ofc being the other half)

No real associations I see with KAAG, but nonetheless, Aero's slot is starting to read suspicious.

[Ircher]

I think UTL is scum at this point- everything she has said with our conversation points to that.
I hope everything ends up being ok with her
I am going to look at Yawing now- this entire game I have had a hard time reading him so I am going to try to come up with something concrete.
as for Ryu I said my thoughts in my read. I wouldn't want him gone day one I don't think just because lack of info and his posts did not point me at scum. Eggman yet decided on- not enough info.
I am pretty sure Aeronaut asked me why I saw aatami as leaning town so I will find the posts that I liked.
Sorry for not posting too much lately- I have been swarmed with essays. Finals suck aha

Hey Eggman
if you want to make some of your own judgments on UTL look at the conversation between me and her.
This is where I became convinced she is scum.
I will probably post a full thing to everyone else why I think this all in one post.
I have explained to her why I think that- you can read and see but I will type up something more to make it clearer.

I find it more TvT with conf bias on UTL side. I may be wrong though!

[Ircher]

@Everyone
Do not follow the IC's activity rate; it is BAD to be prodded in game, much less 3-time ON D1 *as the IC*

Out of all the people to replace, why. , *WHY* does the IC let himself get so busy that he cannot handle his responsibilities? Shameful imo, but I won't ask why, it is prob. a semi-decent reason.

Anyway, as analyzed above, Aero is acting pretty sketchy, so
VOTE: Aero

[Ircher]

@mod: please replace aero. This is prod #3 for him.

That would be hard for the mod to do fyi

[Ircher]

This thread died.....

[Ircher]

I was thinking about doing an UTL reread, but I'm satisfied with Radja's replace in to the extent that can wait.

As far as Radja's readlist looks, looks pretty good to me (and it does coincide pretty well with my thoughts. Except, my read of Aero has prob. changed since my readlist).

I think that when Radja stated something about Egg & a VT claim, he merely misworded or ambiguously worded that. If he was SURE Egg was a VT, then he would HAVE to be Mafia. Basically, one mustn't be too keen on the way things are worded; generally, it's the underlying motive that matters more (scum most likely wouldn't say that they KNOW a person is a VT and then proceed to try to lynch them).

[Ircher]

Fyi, I'm supporting only an Egg or an Aero lynch today. The former because its rather scummy, the latter because it is *ahem* suspicious and would also be a good info lynch.

[Ircher]

Skimming Ryu/Egg's ISO, I see the following things:

Ryu

- 1. Poor communicator 2. Did a semi-decent job; equates to a neutral read I guess....

Eggman

3. His opening post 224 is self-contadictory. Has Aero and Mhsmith on the same tier as himself for what basically equates to gut reads. (As his Aero read is based on Aero being an IV). If Egg flips scum, that would suggest an assoc. with Aero. Says KAAG puts in a lot of effort, yet leantown?! Compared to a gutread, I would think that a read based on effort is >= a gutread. The UTL read is also basically gut (same basis as IC being town), so his reads are not coinciding with what he says in that post. He also leaves SIW out. Prob. a newbie mistake/oversight, but still... SIW was one of the more active ones.
2. Askes about fakeclaiming cop - Newbie trying to breadcrumb cop role.... Unlikely, as he later as he later claims VT
3. Claims VT when things begin looking bad - Antitown, but not neccessarily scum motivated
4. Seems to be acting newbie -- Generally not a tell EXCEPT when you ask how many VTs there are despite it being stated in post 0 or 1 of all newbie games.
5. Jumps on Radja for ambiguous terminology- Shame on KAAG for seeing that as a scumslip in the first place, but perhaps opportunistic in nature? I'm not sure....

Overall, pretty confident scumread here.

[Ircher]

See #7 in 428.

[Ircher]

Eh, it doesn't matter. The scumslip part had more to do with Egg anyway.

[Ircher]

VOTE COUNT 1.8

SummerInWonderland (0) -
YawningAngel (2) - mhsmith0, UpTooLate
mhsmith0 (1) - Aeronaut
GreenNope (0) -
Eggman (2) - GreenNope, YawningAngel
Ircher (0) -
KickAssAndGiggle (0) -
UpTooLate (2) - SummerInWonderland, KickAssAndGiggle
Aeronaut (1) - Ircher

Not Voting: Eggman

Activity Notes:
Replacing UTL per request
GreenNope has been prodded.
Aeronaut is due a 3rd prod and will be replaced.

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Tuesday, March 22nd 2016 at 11:45 pm PDT or in (expired on 2016-03-22 23:45:00)

[Ircher]

Also,

@Mod Update VC Please

[Ircher]

We need to decide on who we're lynching. No lynch is NOT an option.

[Ircher]

Let's hammer the scum:

VOTE: Egg L-1

Anyone who hammers without giving 24 hrs intent will be a prime suspect for tomorrow's lynch.

[Ircher]

Greetings all, I'm the new Aero.

I already see a lot of newbie brainwashing that I dislike, so will probably intentionally choose to gak with you all for that.

Let's start with a speed hammer for lulz.

Unvote: mhsmith0
Vote: Eggman

Mjolnirtime!

I have no idea what the case on him was, but it seemed funny to do.
In other news I mildly townread Shannon unless Egg flips scum, then I'll mildly scumread her.

@Ircher - what was the case on Eggman? You seemed for this lynch, so you can probably explain it well to me.
@Yawning Angel - besides deadline, what is wrong with Shannon's vote on Summer?
@KickAndGiggle - why are you giving up on your prime suspect with over three days left in the game before deadline?

YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!

I want a new IC who won't lolhammer people!

[Ircher]

So who joined the lynch most opportunistically? I'm going to say Thor/Aero. Thor could easily have said 'Hey, I'm new, I don't know about this, I'm keeping out', but instead went and made a big song and dance about hammering Egg for 0 justification. Maybe this is his play style, maybe it's covering for scumminess. I can't tell yet.

Then there's Ircher saying that 'no lynch is not an option' in 480, and then going to L-1 Egg on 483. He has given an explanation for his actions that is theory/rule-based rather than player-behaviour based. *And* he says that whoever hammers without 24 hours notice is next to be lynched, which like 'lynch the lurker', is supposed to appeal to our sense of how the game should be played. So now I'm a bit suss on Ircher for this reason *and* per my post 501 I'll have more reason to investigate him as well.

If Egg flips mafia, I reckon Ircher has a bit to answer for.

You better start doing some explaining, as I'm not seeing how my move is very scum indicative

As far as I can tell Eggman was not hammered. Shannon changed her vote to me.
@thor any way you can take a look at my UTL/Radja? I think this is our bet.
Also shannon asking someone what they think is working together with my town reads. I am not asking someone to save me. (I will continue to get into your case against me as I go)
I don't think Eggman is a good lynch- he is a lurker and I don't think there is too much content where with UTL I actually see solid stuff.

Hopefully

[Ircher]

So who joined the lynch most opportunistically? I'm going to say Thor/Aero. Thor could easily have said 'Hey, I'm new, I don't know about this, I'm keeping out', but instead went and made a big song and dance about hammering Egg for 0 justification. Maybe this is his play style, maybe it's covering for scumminess. I can't tell yet.

Then there's Ircher saying that 'no lynch is not an option' in 480, and then going to L-1 Egg on 483. He has given an explanation for his actions that is theory/rule-based rather than player-behaviour based. *And* he says that whoever hammers without 24 hours notice is next to be lynched, which like 'lynch the lurker', is supposed to appeal to our sense of how the game should be played. So now I'm a bit suss on Ircher for this reason *and* per my post 501 I'll have more reason to investigate him as well.

If Egg flips mafia, I reckon Ircher has a bit to answer for.

As far as I can tell Eggman was not hammered. Shannon changed her vote to me.
@thor any way you can take a look at my UTL/Radja? I think this is our bet.
Also shannon asking someone what they think is working together with my town reads. I am not asking someone to save me. (I will continue to get into your case against me as I go)
I don't think Eggman is a good lynch- he is a lurker and I don't think there is too much content where with UTL I actually see solid stuff.

No, I'm saying that you're a candidate for scumbuddy. You voted for him when you knew it was already almost over, which is what you might do if you were bussing. Also maybe you can count (!) and knew that your 'hammer' wouldn't actually kill him, because I had voted SiL and the posts about vote numbers were inaccurate.

I absolutely knew I wasn't hammering him - but you're arguing that my vote was "opportunistic".
I can see why it would be opportunistic if I was scum and he was town (or, frankly, if I was town and he was scum)
But if we're both scum - either I thought he was at L-1 (or L-2) and I'd just shown up.
The *only* "opportunity" I see in hammering him is...well...actually I don't see one, because if it was real, it got me nothing, and if it was fake it got me no distance.
So, what is it?

I think Ircher may have used the deadline and lurk as an excuse, in the absence of any substantive reason, to join the bandwagon and bus Egg. I don't see why a townie would vote for someone inoffensive but useless when they could be trying to use the last of our time to vote for someone who is actually mafia. And Ircher doesn't say that Egg is mafia, only that he's failing to participate.

Yeah, I can see why a scum Ircher would do it to a town Eggman - but you said that if Eggman was scum you'd want to look at Ircher.
I still don't get why - you think that's what a bus should look like?

Still am asking about your overall Mafia experience - you missed that question.

1) If you are both scum, the opportunity is for you to look not-scum by hammering someone that was already being voted down. And, you knew (and a lot of us didn't seem to realise) he wouldn't actually be lynched from it. The method of doing it (I don't care, I'm hammering now!) also made people second-guess their Egg votes. So when SiW reminded us that the wagon was one vote short, instead of someone adding to it (as they otherwise might have), people changed their minds because you had made the Egg vote look reckless. (Note: I think the Egg vote *was* reckless, but that's beside the point). I can't clearly tell whether you did this from a pro-town angle (Save Egg! Find the real killers!) or whether you did it from a pro-Mafia point. (Save Egg! Find a real townie! Or at least, make myself look Townie if this wagon keeps on rolling).


2) Yes, I'd still look at Ircher for scum if Eggman is scum. Ircher may have known, as you did, that his vote was actually L-2 not L-1, aka not dangerous. It also gave him a way to stay with the town (vote Egg), while not having to say anything that would make people look too closely at him. If you don't offer a substantive opinion, no one can offer substantive criticism.

3) I answered last post, but I've not played forum mafia before.

I'm not avoiding any questions I'm just struggling to keep up! If I miss something you think is key, please link me back to it. (While you're at it, how do you link to posts? I know how to quote but not how to do the thing where the post number shows up as a link).

My vite was right after the VC, so unless the mod messed something up, that was def. L-1. Also, are you accusing me of not having an opinion this game? I would like to see what you are calling "zero content" from me.

[Ircher]

YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!

I want a new IC who won't lolhammer people!

Would you like to fake any other emotions as long as I'm here?
Ircher is now also an acceptable lynch in my mind.

It was genuine; I forgot Shannon was on the wagon & switched votes.

[Ircher]

It was genuine; I forgot Shannon was on the wagon & switched votes.

And, in your blinding rage that obligated you to immediately call me an idiot - you had no need to, y'know, clarify you were wrong once it was pointed out that it wasn't a hammer?

Nah man, that looks super fake - or weirdly rude.
I'm taking it as fake.
Why do you think it should read as honest? You don't think that looks weird on your part?

Cuz I always read in chronological order & my responses are based off that.

[Ircher]

Skimming Ryu/Egg's ISO, I see the following things:

Ryu

- 1. Poor communicator 2. Did a semi-decent job; equates to a neutral read I guess....

Eggman

3. His opening post 224 is self-contadictory. Has Aero and Mhsmith on the same tier as himself for what basically equates to gut reads. (As his Aero read is based on Aero being an IV). If Egg flips scum, that would suggest an assoc. with Aero. Says KAAG puts in a lot of effort, yet leantown?! Compared to a gutread, I would think that a read based on effort is >= a gutread. The UTL read is also basically gut (same basis as IC being town), so his reads are not coinciding with what he says in that post. He also leaves SIW out. Prob. a newbie mistake/oversight, but still... SIW was one of the more active ones.
2. Askes about fakeclaiming cop - Newbie trying to breadcrumb cop role.... Unlikely, as he later as he later claims VT
3. Claims VT when things begin looking bad - Antitown, but not neccessarily scum motivated
4. Seems to be acting newbie -- Generally not a tell EXCEPT when you ask how many VTs there are despite it being stated in post 0 or 1 of all newbie games.
5. Jumps on Radja for ambiguous terminology- Shame on KAAG for seeing that as a scumslip in the first place, but perhaps opportunistic in nature? I'm not sure....

Overall, pretty confident scumread here.

My "case" on Ryu/Egg - Somewhat ambiguous (may be bad town) but compared to everything else, it's pretty strong & would be if this wasn't a newbie.

[Ircher]

I just quoted a case on Scum Egg yet you ignore it........
VOTE: Shannon

Thor's slight townread and your entrances make me suspicious of both of you.

[Ircher]

Cuz I always read in chronological order & my responses are based off that.

Oh, absolutely you read in chronological order - I'm not suggesting anything else.
I'm just wondering why you didn't react to the realization that it wasn't a hammer - especially when you'd been so violent when you thought it was, weren't you relieved? Weren't you at least thinking I was less of an idiot? Anything?

Apparently not, since you didn't add anything else.

But, after the level of initial response, the lack of followup reads weird - and that's what makes it look fake to me.
Liek if I just punched someone for sleeping with my girlfriend, and then found out he hadn't I'd, y'know...react to that new info. If I didn't it would be weird.
Like what you did.

My "case" on Ryu/Egg - Somewhat ambiguous (may be bad town) but compared to everything else, it's pretty strong & would be if this wasn't a newbie.

Your case is literally full of you admitting that the issues aren't really scummy - even right now, you're admitting it might be a good case if not on a Newbie, but then, y'know, noting it's on a Newbie.
It's really unimpressive to me.

What's your read on Yawning Angel?
Wanna lynch him instead?

Yawn and Summer right now are prob. newbtown. I'm pretty sure the YA case is worse than my Egg case

[Ircher]

Chief suspects right now are Shannon and Thor.

The Thor case - Fake lolhammer, suspicious predecessor (which I summed up earlier), Association with Shannon, and trying to find scum motivation in a reaction to a fake lolhammer.

Shannon - Association with Thor, misrepping me in order to try to get me mislynched

[Ircher]

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

[Ircher]

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

ok so you think it is a good case... but is weakened by some mysterious conf. bias.
please direct me to this because apparently there is a lot of it that you see.

This is something you learn through experience. Do you know what muscle memory is? It works the same way as muscle memory -- The more times you see stuff like that, the more likely you will be able to understand what's happening.

Anyway, conf. bias isn't one of those things you point out; you can tell by looking at how the players respond. In this case, UTL seemed overky focused on you and keen to point out the slightest errors you made. But, I have a good feeling that she truly thought you were scum and didn't realize she was tunneling you.

[Ircher]

See, Egg ISN'T TRYING. YA IS.

See the difference? Same can be said for SIW.

[Ircher]

Why? That's no case. I've called people idiots before (not in Newbies myself...but it happens) and there's no emotion behind it. Choosing CAPS is just style, not AI.

He admitted it as an emotional reaction already, so that defense is out the window.
The question now is if it was faked emotion or not - I think it's fake, do you think it looks real?

You've seemed rather logical in most posts, I like it...but not this one. (Note: I don't think you're an idiot! But wrong here.)

Good, I've fooled you.

Let me ask you Thor: Who

wouldn't

be genuinely angry with

an IC

who decides to

lolhammer

(or fake it) a player despite another player

just

stating

not

to do so?

That

, fake or real, is

bad

IC play. And quite frankly, 75% of the playerlist thought it was genuine and found it attrocious.

[Ircher]

Also, caps is a bit of a style thing too -- I use them for emphasis when I'm too lazy to type the actual bbcode.

[Ircher]

I've read the Utl case and it primarily consists of SJW/Utl, but there is evid. of Conf. Bias in the case, which weakens it s value. I prefer an Egg lynch, or even possubly a Thor lynch.

[Ircher]

Err... what? Our IC laid out the case for doing this literally within the last 48 hours. I presume he wouldn't do that if it were terrible advice to give (seems contrary to the spirit of the thing), and I certainly assume he wouldn't do it if it were factually incorrect (if twilight doesn't last at least long enough to post, then there's a major hole in his argument that the town would have nothing to do save consider other lynches in the time remaining on the clock.

Confscum.

See this is why Thors play is poor -- It sets a very bad example for newbies.

[Ircher]

By hammerring Radja adpfter having it bolded TWICE that you state intent first. Plus, we have Thor's ridiculous precedent, so the reasn of newb is out. It was a lolquickhammer intentionally fone to cut our discussionshort

[Ircher]

But, a pr claim means we DONT lynch conf tow n.

I made it clear that you state intent. KAAG did too. You hammered in 6 or so posts after Kaags warning

[Ircher]

Infi is IMPORTANT for town, More time = More info. You have cut day short by yout hammer.

[Ircher]

If Radja is town, YA is guaranteed scum.
Radja scum meabs high possibility that ya is scum.

[Ircher]

[line][/line]

As far as I know twilight seems to be dangerous for town.
I don't think we should be putting all of our thoughts out there because we will soon find out if Radja is scum or town.
Giving free information to scum is bad.
saying things like "if he is town I will think or if he is scum I will think" is just giving out free information with no gain to town as far as I can see.

I think scum will NK *either* some one who is consistently on the right track, or someone who is currently on the wrong track but who is a persuasive leader. (Because being a good leader would become dangerous to scum if that person ever gets the *right* idea in their heads). They'd be fools to pick someone wishy washy, who is neither right nor persuasive, because that person isn't hurting their chances so much.

I don't know whether there is a habit of scum thinking this way? (Experts can you chime in?) But if so, I'm worrying about NKs for people like KAAG, Msmith, Summer, and Thor. They're all either good reasoners, good leaders, or both. If we have any doctors or protective types in the game, these are the people I think need protection. Anyone else have an opinion?

Unless they believe summer is a pr, they arent nking summer. Thor prob. isn't being nked. I'm surprised hou left me off the list tho.

[Ircher]

Final reads:

Town

msmith
KAAG
Ircher
Summer
Eggman
YawningAngel
Shannon
Thor

Scum

Yeah, that sums up my current stance though I'm kinda mixed with the bottom 3; all of them have done stuff that makes one extremely suspicious of them.

[Ircher]

You don't seem like a guy who gets his kicks out of lying to noobs and your points made sense so I took you at your word. I considered waiting on a claim, but gaming it out in my head it didn't seem like anything he could say would make much of a difference. A VT claim doesn't disincentivize a lynch at all, and PR claims are just as attractive for scum as for actual town PRs (who are highly likely to die that night in many setups anyway).

I know you read my discussions about proper play Day 1 - no where in there did I remotely suggest a hammer without a claim was a good idea.
So...if you don't think I'd lie to the point of wanting to leap ahead with a shorter day, why did you overlook the, y'know, other thoughts I had about how to do it?

[line][/line]

As far as I know twilight seems to be dangerous for town.
I don't think we should be putting all of our thoughts out there because we will soon find out if Radja is scum or town.
Giving free information to scum is bad.
saying things like "if he is town I will think or if he is scum I will think" is just giving out free information with no gain to town as far as I can see.

I think scum will NK *either* some one who is consistently on the right track, or someone who is currently on the wrong track but who is a persuasive leader. (Because being a good leader would become dangerous to scum if that person ever gets the *right* idea in their heads). They'd be fools to pick someone wishy washy, who is neither right nor persuasive, because that person isn't hurting their chances so much.

I don't know whether there is a habit of scum thinking this way? (Experts can you chime in?) But if so, I'm worrying about NKs for people like KAAG, Msmith, Summer, and Thor. They're all either good reasoners, good leaders, or both. If we have any doctors or protective types in the game, these are the people I think need protection. Anyone else have an opinion?

Unless they believe summer is a pr, they arent nking summer. Thor prob. isn't being nked. I'm surprised hou left me off the list tho.

I just reviewed your ISO very quickly. I left you off the list because I don't think you're persuasive, and you don't stick with one target all that long. I've colour coded because I'm a visual person.

377 - Vote

Green (my slot)

but say

Egg is suss

390 -

Aero reading suss

392 -

Vote Aero

439 - R

adja's reads of others look right

443 - Supports lynch on

Egg

or

Aero

483 -

Votes Egg to L-1

538 - Angry at

Thor(new Aero)

for (faux) lolhammer on Egg
553 - Vote

Shannon

due to my interactions

with Thor

556 - Summer and YA both newbtown, so others' case for YA is not as good as his

own case for Egg

557 - Chief suspects

Shannon

and

Thor

559 -

UTL(Radja)

case has merit but hampered by confirmation bias
590 - Prefers

Egg (1)

or

Thor (2)

lynch over

UTL/Radja

*YA hammers Radja*

675 - If

Radja is town

,

YA is guaranteed scum

.

If Radja is scum

,

YA is still probably scum

Based on this, can you confirm whether your best suspects are currently YA, Egg, myself, or Thor?

I need to look at you closer. My initial read of you was... poorly evidenced, yet some of the things you did gave me poor vibes. The seemingly easy yet slight townread Thor gave you, who I was suspicious of, caused me to see a possible association between the two of you.

I had already done a review of Aero and had concluded that Aero was acting strange/suspicious but not neccessarily scummy, per se. When Thor came along with his fake lolhammer and then jumping on my reaction to it seemed off. I will need to investigate Thor a bit closer tbh. Overall, the read there was strengthened by Thor's entrance, but it's still not definitive yet.

At first, I was thinking YA was pretty much newbtown after considering whether or not I'd do the same things if this were my first game. The main thing that struck me as super scummy was the hammer: I gave a warning about hammering without intent. Thor proceeded to pretend to do the exact opposite as a reaction test, yet he knew he didn't actually hammer, so that's forgivable. KAAG proceeds to remind people not to hammer before giving ~24 hrs intent prior, esp. without a claim. And YA in less than 10 posts (I think) goes and just hammers Radja.

Considering the recent events, Egg is prob. now a neutral read leaning towards scum now as the case was fairly weak (albeit imo better than the YA case at the time). PoE is a strong tool for town and that's why this read changed.

[Ircher]

Also, I rescind my earlier statement suggesting that Radja town = YA guaranteed scum.

Considering YA's defense, while the move was still very scummy and definitely poor (as town), I think that a lack of explaining why just hammering is poor is part of the reason why YA executed the hammer.

Therefore, a town Radja flip has a high probability of YA scum and a scum flip has a moderate chance of YA scum.

[Ircher]

I will, he's at the top of my prio.

[Ircher]

Probably gut though I cant say for Radja obviously.

Again, the slot hasn't been blatantly scummy, but one can see that a more covert motive may be behind the posts.

[Ircher]

I don't see a problem with Radja posting his final reads and assessments. If he's town, he'll do it anyway as it still plays to his wincon. If he's scum, I highly doubt there's going to be anything valuable in it. We have two days of twilight to discuss matters.

Just noticed this:

When a player is hammered, the game enters twilight. Most mods let you post during twilight; however, you should not count on a long twilight period as twilight ends as soon as the mod is able to get back to the thread. Twilight does NOT extend to the deadline.

[Ircher]

Also, Shannon replaced GreenNope I believe.

[Ircher]

Thor665,

Vanilla Townie

was killed Night 1!

VOTE COUNT 2.0

SummerInWonderland (0) -
YawningAngel (0) -
mhsmith0 (0) -
shannon (0) -
Eggman (0) -
Ircher (0) -
KickAssAndGiggle (0) -

Not Voting: Eggman, shannon, mhsmith0, Ircher, YawningAngel, SummerInWonderland, KickAssAndGiggle

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is Friday, April 8th 2016 at 10:30 pm PDT or in (expired on 2016-04-08 22:30:00)

Wifom?

It was very likely Thor was going to be today's lynch -- why kill him?

[Ircher]

VOTE: KAAG

Let's start here:

What's your thoughts in terms of the kills?

Why do you think Thor was NK'd and what is your opinion of Radja's final readlist?

(A warning to town: While Too Townie to be Town is a fallacious argument, one must also know that it is quite possible for scum to become the "town leaders". KAAG seems like a skilled player, and while there's no evidence to back up that's the case here, it's something to be cautious of.)

[Ircher]

@YA

You do know what bussing is, right?

[Ircher]

@Mhsmith
Reaction test.

Definitely not serious, although do keep in mind my warning.

[Ircher]

UNVOTE: KAAG

[Ircher]

I'm a Brit, so I understand "taking this piss" as a phrase! (PEDIT: Aha! )

However, it's utterly nonsense. I mean utterly. There is not a single post by Thor that comes across as a joke. Not one.

Thor has never expressed a belief in

Ircher

as scum (in fact Thor's choices were all popular targets, Radja,

Egg

, YA), so I'm finding it difficult to believe that Ircher had motivation to NK Thor. Ircher I think is townish.

What are your reads and why?

You scum, for reasons stated.

Ircher

, scum, for reasons stated.

Egg

town, for reasons stated.
Shannon, slight town, for reasons stated.

I read him as being really dry, droll, and funny. Is this not what I should be getting from him? What does everyone else think? (Surely someone being so superficially aggressive is actually joking?)

It's late here (1:00). I'm going to let the others weigh in and catch up with all this after some shut eye. I'm interested to see others' perspectives.

For anyone who's thinking of going crazy with the hammer, please don't!

I think he was serious when he said I was scum. Now, in terms of evidence, I would find it rather thin, but nonetheless, he was serious as far as I could tell.

[Ircher]

(I'm halfway through a wall post on the voting analysis, because my first attempt got sidetracked into discussing the hammer. But Ircher raises some points I'll respond to first.)

VOTE: KAAG

Let's start here:

What's your thoughts in terms of the kills?

Radja's lynch was highly unfortunate, but I am not going to pretend that I don't stand by the analysis I made on D1. I cannot get my head around UpTooLate's play in the last dozen posts she made as she was a towny. If you look at my read lists as they shift through D1, I had her at fence-town for quite a while, but then she imploded. Radja just didn't do enough to fix it for me.

I brought up a couple of times that while the UTL case had the most objective evidence to support it, the way the evidence could also have been interpreted made me felt the case wasn't strong enough for a D1 lynch. Did you ever consider the TvT possibility between UTL and SIW? As far as Radja goes, I can understand why he didn't really change your mind. As far as fence town goes --> Scum, that is true.

Now the Thor NK is interesting. There are generic possibilities:

- Thor has 28,000 posts (ish) on this forum. In Mafia, experience is no

guarantee

of skill but there is obvious correlation. Any scum team might have considered him a threat. I don't necessarily buy your "he was very likely going to be today's lynch" argument myself: a dead towny's reads should be respected but I'd have needed to see a lot more scumminess to join the wagon. Let's say I was NK'd instead, or mhsmith0, and you guys HAD lynched Thor (mislynched), you'd be taking Eggman into LYLO, which is worrisome as he barely makes any reads. So I'd have been super cautious myself.

That's only a problem if Egg was town. If Egg was scum, then we'd go to 3p LyLo. While your point about experience is valid, I don't see scum generally nightkilling players for it. They generally get rid of PRs first, then highly townread players, then finally skilled players. (Active players are tied with skilled players)

- Thor was scum-hunting without complacency, and openly admitted to not having read the early days. Any town-cred built up was irrelevant to him, meaning mhsmith0, SIW and KAAG (me!) could all have a motive as we were, I suggest, widely town-read. A good scum-hunter gets better as the game goes on as the % of players who are scum left in the game goes up.

What was the point here?

- Thor shook up a quiet, lurky game. Inaction benefits scum more than town, and he was making action.

This is valid.

And there are non-generic possibilities. Thor leant scum on you (Ircher) and YA. But you were his preferred lynch:

I've read the Utl case and it primarily consists of SJW/Utl, but there is evid. of Conf. Bias in the case, which weakens it s value. I prefer an Egg lynch, or even possubly a Thor lynch.

You're currently voting Shannon.

Are you scum forgetting your fake pushes, or are you trying to compromise off Shannon for some reason?

Unvote: Yawning Angel
Vote: Radja

Also still good with an Ircher lynch.

hey thor!
I am just wondering why are you voting Radja now?
I put my case out there for you a while ago and KAGG did a bit after that too.
You were questioning others throughout that.
so yea basically why now?

I am voting Radja because I don't scumread Yawning Angels as much and, for some weird reason, there is zero support for the idea of lynching Ircher.

Valid point. Nonetheless, if I were scum, I would've been more inclined to night kill you (assuming your town) as like I said earlier, I would've pushed the Thor lynch today.

Hopefully it will become clearer which reason is more likely as the day continues.

...

what is your opinion of Radja's final readlist?

Well...it's wrong at the very bottom, we know that now. I was surprised to see you above SIW, more because of how towny I perceived her to be than anything on you. I'm also somewhat surprised at the position of Eggman, because as you'll see when I finish my Vote Count Wall (tm) , he was Radja's top scum pick for a good old while.

If we were looking to start investigating based on the deceased town reads, I'd say we look at:

{YA, Ircher, Shannon, Eggman, SIW}

I am almost definite there is at least 1 scum in that group, probably two

(In no particular order)

I suspect you will protest, but one issue we have is that Thor did not really provide town reads (which is why mhsmith0 that I feel they are at least as important as scum reads). I think he leant briefly town on shannon in one post and that was it. So the only town reads we have are Radja's.

...

(A warning to town: While Too Townie to be Town is a fallacious argument, one must also know that it is quite possible for scum to become the "town leaders". KAAG seems like a skilled player, and while there's no evidence to back up that's the case here, it's something to be cautious of.)

No argument with the fact at face-value: I've seen people do exactly this. But it is pure WIFOM: if I AM town and I AM skilled (I offer no opinion on that!) then it is in town's best interest. If I AM scum, it wouldn't be, of course. But the act of me doing so tells you nothing.

Obviously, I'm not pushing a case on you for just that. I just thought that would be useful to remember. As you said, it's pure WIFOM as I believe I implied by mentioning the Too Townie to be Town fallancy

...

PEDIT

Yes, shannon, you should definitely look at me. However there are some things that I think you do slightly misrepresent:

When I asked how we made such a big mistake he deflected blame by saying 'you joined willingly too', which I thought was weird. Yes, I joined willingly, but I think an appropriate answer would have been that factors A, B, and C convinced him, and a towny thing to do would be to push the rest of us for explanations too.

I presented an 8 point list in the thread, going into full reasoning on my decision. I did not re-post it when replying to you, but it's easy to find: post 565.

I took a look at KAAG's ISO and since 430 it's been a little light on scum hunting. There are lots of posts about game mechanics, and about how he would see other people if certain things happened, or rehashing old stuff (c.f. 448, 565). He has been committed to the Radja vote for ages but I can't see meaningful attempts to find the second scum. Then it's KAAG who in 682 decides to take control of the next scum hunt by saying he will look at Radja's votes in order. Radja's scummiest vote is for Thor, who gets NKed.

Trying to find associates without a flip is a hard and dangerous game. Regarding Radja...I had that sinking feeling he was going to flip town, and dead townies want their reads taken account of. I'm sure you will in this game and any futures games too. I am happy to follow the lead of someone who makes a good case on somebody, I don't have to lead. All you get is grief when you're wrong!!!

KAAG has asked Summer and MH for their reads (706), because he says they're the strongest towns. If this is correct, it means the townies according to KAAG are himself, Summer, MH, Radja (proven VT), Thor (proven VT), Egg (claimed VT) and the scum are some combination of myself, YA, Ircher.

Not Eggman, no. His claim is Null to me. As above, neither Radja nor Thor seemed as blown away by town!SIW as me, so I'm prepared to re-look. Only myself and mhsmith0 are in my personal "clear as glass" category. YMMV.

Responses are in bold. Only the top one do you need to answer.

[Ircher]

One thing I've got flagged to follow up is @Msmith's post 125 that "If there's a two-veteran (vet loosely defined as IC/SE) scum team, I feel like we're going to have a much harder time finding scum slips". The two we've got left are KAAG and Ircher, neither of whom have really been proposed as candidates for mafia.

Ircher

Spoiler:

Ircher at [689] has his bottom three as me, YA, and Thor, and ultimately voted YA. Thor got NKed, and at 559 Ircher was preferring to lynch me or Thor over UTL/Radja. If Ircher is scum, he may have NKed Thor since he couldn't get the lynch. Thor is obviously a dangerous player who asks lots of tough questions. But Ircher didn't really push the lynch, even though he might have got it in the immediate aftermath of the LOLHammer. Thor has never expressed a belief in Ircher as scum (in fact Thor's choices were all popular targets, Radja, Egg, YA), so I'm finding it difficult to believe that Ircher had motivation to NK Thor. Ircher I think is townish.

KAAG

Spoiler:

KAAG I'm having a harder time with. He had been on the Radja/UTL bandwagon for a while, and at 650 takes responsibility (along with Summer) for pushing it originally.

When I asked how we made such a big mistake he deflected blame by saying 'you joined willingly too', which I thought was weird. Yes, I joined willingly, but I think an appropriate answer would have been that factors A, B, and C convinced him, and a towny thing to do would be to push the rest of us for explanations too.

I took a look at KAAG's ISO and since 430 it's been a little light on scum hunting. There are lots of posts about game mechanics, and about how he would see other people if certain things happened, or rehashing old stuff (c.f. 448, 565). He has been committed to the Radja vote for ages but I can't see meaningful attempts to find the second scum. Then it's KAAG who in 682 decides to take control of the next scum hunt by saying he will look at Radja's votes in order. Radja's scummiest vote is for Thor, who gets NKed.

KAAG has asked Summer and MH for their reads (706), because he says they're the strongest towns. If this is correct, it means the townies according to KAAG are himself, Summer, MH, Radja (proven VT), Thor (proven VT), Egg (claimed VT) and the scum are some combination of myself, YA, Ircher.

TL;DR (but it wont make sense if you DR):

Obviously I know I'm town, and I think Ircher is, so I want you to consider whether there's a scenario in which it makes sense for any of us (me+ YA, me+ Ircher, YA + Ircher) to be a scum team. I would argue that there's no case to be found, I think we should look at whether KAAG is scum himself.

I think KAAG is a skilful enough player to buddy someone obv-town without us noticing, and it's possible he's done that with Summer. I think his decision to make an authoritative sounding post attributing YA's hammer to a mistake could be a way of getting us to direct the next lynch to a target he considers harder. *And* I think that his taking control of the scum hunt now is a good way for him to direct it, if he himself is scum.

VOTE: KAAG

This vote is based on experience WIFOM as I will call it, and therefore is rather weak and kinda opportunistic in nature.

We don't know the distribution of roles to experienced versus not experienced players. It is entirely possibly we have a team consisting solely of newbies. Yet, you seem to be basing your vote on this wifom and this wifom solely.

VOTE: Shannon

[Ircher]

I didn't get anything from the reaction test. He simply responded to my questions without even mentioning my vote on him.

[Ircher]

Tbh, I have not been working too hard for this thread.

The assoc. part mainly had to do with Thor's mysterious townread of Shannon.

Concerning #1: Pretty strongly, but after Thor's ahem lolhammer, I no longer saw it as a lynch that would occur,

#2: See above. Also, Thor/Aero ......seemed off. I was debating the possibility of town Egg & Thor/Shannon scumteam. That obviously is not the case, and right now, my lynchpool is {YA, Egg, Shannon}. Also, I actually do a lot of wagon hopping for fairly small reasons... It's just something I do, I temd to vote the one who has mostly recently and consistently given me scumvibes. I also have a very open perspective, which also explains some vote hopping.

[Ircher]

No, I'm saying that you're a candidate for scumbuddy. You voted for him when you knew it was already almost over, which is what you might do if you were bussing. Also maybe you can count (!) and knew that your 'hammer' wouldn't actually kill him, because I had voted SiL and the posts about vote numbers were inaccurate.

I absolutely knew I wasn't hammering him - but you're arguing that my vote was "opportunistic".
I can see why it would be opportunistic if I was scum and he was town (or, frankly, if I was town and he was scum)
But if we're both scum - either I thought he was at L-1 (or L-2) and I'd just shown up.
The *only* "opportunity" I see in hammering him is...well...actually I don't see one, because if it was real, it got me nothing, and if it was fake it got me no distance.
So, what is it?

I think Ircher may have used the deadline and lurk as an excuse, in the absence of any substantive reason, to join the bandwagon and bus Egg. I don't see why a townie would vote for someone inoffensive but useless when they could be trying to use the last of our time to vote for someone who is actually mafia. And Ircher doesn't say that Egg is mafia, only that he's failing to participate.

Indecisive? Perhaps, but that's just me. No substantial reason -- Actually, I expressed my thoughts about Egg earlier, even if I didn't give a definitive stance. As, when evaluating reads, there are two parts: objective (the facts (posts)) and subjective (personal vibe, metas, other unexplained reasons, interactions perception). If you looked at all the cases D1, only 1 case objectively pointed to scum: the UTL one. But, I had a subjective reason for strongly believing Utl wasn't scum: SIW/UTL fight looked TvT to me. So, no, this is invalid & part of what I was referring to in terms of misreps: I most certainly do have opinions and I have substantial reasons to believe them, some being objective, others being subjective.

The other part -- Not saying Egg is mafia but failing to participate -- not true. Both can be true, in this case, that's how I've perceived it, BUT your replace in and YA's lolhammer has made me reconsider. For the record, I'm 99.9% sure there is atleast 1 scum in {Egg, Shannon, YA}. So, please don't say what isn't true; I had VERY clearly marked Egg as my *

top

* scumread in my readlist (following my catch up) in 361. The former I could perhaps excuse, but failing to notice that was the only one in red text at the bottom of my readlist should tell you I think he was scum. And, if your excuse is you didn't read everything upon replacing in, well that's on you. And, if you perhaps didn't see it cuz it was in spoilers, well, that's on you, cuz the post preceding it told you that some of the most important stuff I say all game is enclosed in spoilers to save space. (Don't tell me you skimmed past that, I made that as large and blatant as I could.)

Yeah, I can see why a scum Ircher would do it to a town Eggman - but you said that if Eggman was scum you'd want to look at Ircher.
I still don't get why - you think that's what a bus should look like?

Still am asking about your overall Mafia experience - you missed that question.

1) If you are both scum, the opportunity is for you to look not-scum by hammering someone that was already being voted down. And, you knew (and a lot of us didn't seem to realise) he wouldn't actually be lynched from it. The method of doing it (I don't care, I'm hammering now!) also made people second-guess their Egg votes. So when SiW reminded us that the wagon was one vote short, instead of someone adding to it (as they otherwise might have), people changed their minds because you had made the Egg vote look reckless. (Note: I think the Egg vote *was* reckless, but that's beside the point). I can't clearly tell whether you did this from a pro-town angle (Save Egg! Find the real killers!) or whether you did it from a pro-Mafia point. (Save Egg! Find a real townie! Or at least, make myself look Townie if this wagon keeps on rolling).


2) Yes, I'd still look at Ircher for scum if Eggman is scum. Ircher may have known, as you did, that his vote was actually L-2 not L-1, aka not dangerous. It also gave him a way to stay with the town (vote Egg), while not having to say anything that would make people look too closely at him. If you don't offer a substantive opinion, no one can offer substantive criticism.

You need to stop skimming. My vote was literally right after a VC. How can you possibly miss the fact that I knew my vote put Egg at L-1. Also, that's just stupid -- on purposely OVERcounting the number of votes; why would scum want to do that? I addressed the last part about nit having substantial opinions above.

3) I answered last post, but I've not played forum mafia before.

I'm not avoiding any questions I'm just struggling to keep up! If I miss something you think is key, please link me back to it. (While you're at it, how do you link to posts? I know how to quote but not how to do the thing where the post number shows up as a link).

@Mhsmith
That was the main post(s) that I was referring to. I prob. exaggerated a little bit originally, but I think I will actually stand by statement.

[Ircher]

Ugh. The whole dumping language in the middle of quotes without being explicit on who is saying what is super annoying. Anyway...
1) Ircher on Egg in his vote:

Egg (-90%) - This slot has not been useful at all. I've seen zero scumhunting here and I don't understand why people are townreading this slot.

2) Shannon on Ircher:

I think Ircher may have used the deadline and lurk as an excuse, in the absence of any substantive reason, to join the bandwagon and bus Egg. I don't see why a townie would vote for someone inoffensive but useless when they could be trying to use the last of our time to vote for someone who is actually mafia. And Ircher doesn't say that Egg is mafia, only that he's failing to participate.

...
1) If you are both scum, the opportunity is for you to look not-scum by hammering someone that was already being voted down. And, you knew (and a lot of us didn't seem to realise) he wouldn't actually be lynched from it. The method of doing it (I don't care, I'm hammering now!) also made people second-guess their Egg votes. So when SiW reminded us that the wagon was one vote short, instead of someone adding to it (as they otherwise might have), people changed their minds because you had made the Egg vote look reckless. (Note: I think the Egg vote *was* reckless, but that's beside the point). I can't clearly tell whether you did this from a pro-town angle (Save Egg! Find the real killers!) or whether you did it from a pro-Mafia point. (Save Egg! Find a real townie! Or at least, make myself look Townie if this wagon keeps on rolling).
2) Yes, I'd still look at Ircher for scum if Eggman is scum. Ircher may have known, as you did, that his vote was actually L-2 not L-1, aka not dangerous. It also gave him a way to stay with the town (vote Egg), while not having to say anything that would make people look too closely at him. If you don't offer a substantive opinion, no one can offer substantive criticism.
...

3) My take: Ircher technically didn't SAY that Egg was scum, but it was implied by the 90% scum odds. OTOH, Ircher didn't actually come up with specific scummy behavior, only identifying the slot as "not been useful at all" with "zero scumhunting".
Frankly, that's policy lynch territory. Uselessness may be scum-indicative, but it's FAR from scum-confirming. So when Shannon reads you as not calling Egg actual scum... I think that's an over-statement and/or lazy read, but I'm struggling to see it as an actual distortion.
As far as her #2 above, I would think that scum trying to use distortions to smear someone to get them lynched would be a LOT more careful than being lazy on easily refuted factual statements. Heck, as you say yourself "You need to stop skimming". So no, I'm not buying that story as a vote-worthy distortion.

4) wrt 539, shannon had basically said (poorly) that you were weakly justifying your position based on policy reasons rather than really doing much reading of the slot. Which... she has a point.

5) So when I ask you:

How strongly did you think Egg was scum?

you answer:

Pretty strongly, but after Thor's ahem lolhammer, I no longer saw it as a lynch that would "occur"

The question remains: did you think Egg was scum? If yes, why move your vote away from a plausible lynch? If no, why not either move your vote to a more plausible lynch or make an active effort to get shannon lynched? Your vote move here just seems weird, and I'm really struggling to see how it was a sincere effort to actually get anyone lynched OR a sincere effort to take a stand against the existing wagons.

Instead it seems more like you wanted off the Egg wagon for whatever reason, but at the same time didn't want to be on the Radja wagon OR to be actively lobbying for a lynch of shannon. Which makes me want to know what you WERE trying to accomplish EOD1.

PS @SIW: We're not doing terribly. Obviously getting the right lynch would have been awesome, but failing that, not losing any PR's means that we have a better chance to get something useful out of N2. And it's ENTIRELY possible that we got a useful PR result last night (cop investigation or tracker investigation), and that whoever got that result is slow-playing it (AS THEY SHOULD BE). Losing a town SE/IC does suck, though. But just think of it as a challenge!

[Ircher]

@KAAG
Egg, definitely.

A slot that gets replaced several times in a newbie game btw should be suspicious.

[Ircher]

Ugh. The whole dumping language in the middle of quotes without being explicit on who is saying what is super annoying. Anyway...
1) Ircher on Egg in his vote:

Egg (-90%) - This slot has not been useful at all. I've seen zero scumhunting here and I don't understand why people are townreading this slot.

2) Shannon on Ircher:

I think Ircher may have used the deadline and lurk as an excuse, in the absence of any substantive reason, to join the bandwagon and bus Egg. I don't see why a townie would vote for someone inoffensive but useless when they could be trying to use the last of our time to vote for someone who is actually mafia. And Ircher doesn't say that Egg is mafia, only that he's failing to participate.

...
1) If you are both scum, the opportunity is for you to look not-scum by hammering someone that was already being voted down. And, you knew (and a lot of us didn't seem to realise) he wouldn't actually be lynched from it. The method of doing it (I don't care, I'm hammering now!) also made people second-guess their Egg votes. So when SiW reminded us that the wagon was one vote short, instead of someone adding to it (as they otherwise might have), people changed their minds because you had made the Egg vote look reckless. (Note: I think the Egg vote *was* reckless, but that's beside the point). I can't clearly tell whether you did this from a pro-town angle (Save Egg! Find the real killers!) or whether you did it from a pro-Mafia point. (Save Egg! Find a real townie! Or at least, make myself look Townie if this wagon keeps on rolling).
2) Yes, I'd still look at Ircher for scum if Eggman is scum. Ircher may have known, as you did, that his vote was actually L-2 not L-1, aka not dangerous. It also gave him a way to stay with the town (vote Egg), while not having to say anything that would make people look too closely at him. If you don't offer a substantive opinion, no one can offer substantive criticism.
...

3) My take: Ircher technically didn't SAY that Egg was scum, but it was implied by the 90% scum odds. OTOH, Ircher didn't actually come up with specific scummy behavior, only identifying the slot as "not been useful at all" with "zero scumhunting".
Frankly, that's policy lynch territory. Uselessness may be scum-indicative, but it's FAR from scum-confirming. So when Shannon reads you as not calling Egg actual scum... I think that's an over-statement and/or lazy read, but I'm struggling to see it as an actual distortion.
As far as her #2 above, I would think that scum trying to use distortions to smear someone to get them lynched would be a LOT more careful than being lazy on easily refuted factual statements. Heck, as you say yourself "You need to stop skimming". So no, I'm not buying that story as a vote-worthy distortion.

4) wrt 539, shannon had basically said (poorly) that you were weakly justifying your position based on policy reasons rather than really doing much reading of the slot. Which... she has a point.

5) So when I ask you:

How strongly did you think Egg was scum?

you answer:

Pretty strongly, but after Thor's ahem lolhammer, I no longer saw it as a lynch that would "occur"

The question remains: did you think Egg was scum? If yes, why move your vote away from a plausible lynch? If no, why not either move your vote to a more plausible lynch or make an active effort to get shannon lynched? Your vote move here just seems weird, and I'm really struggling to see how it was a sincere effort to actually get anyone lynched OR a sincere effort to take a stand against the existing wagons.

Instead it seems more like you wanted off the Egg wagon for whatever reason, but at the same time didn't want to be on the Radja wagon OR to be actively lobbying for a lynch of shannon. Which makes me want to know what you WERE trying to accomplish EOD1.

PS @SIW: We're not doing terribly. Obviously getting the right lynch would have been awesome, but failing that, not losing any PR's means that we have a better chance to get something useful out of N2. And it's ENTIRELY possible that we got a useful PR result last night (cop investigation or tracker investigation), and that whoever got that result is slow-playing it (AS THEY SHOULD BE). Losing a town SE/IC does suck, though. But just think of it as a challenge!

3. Ok, true. But, the Egg hasn't been helpful all game, and it was definitely better than lynching YA and I have expressed several times why I disliked the Radja wagon. PoE is a powerful tool and that's basically how some of my reads form. You're right -- I will conclude and concede that I was exaggerating when I stated it was a misrep.

4. It's hard to lynch someone who doesn't do much. Look in all my completed games except the micro - one of the lurkers were scum.

5. Or, how about 1) The Egg lynch basically died cuz of Thor 2) Deadline was quickly approaching and I didn't have a lot to say about Shannon that would make a good case 3) I was 99% certain Radja/Utl was town. So, basically, I wouldn't conclude anything except I absolutely did not support the Radja wagon. Yes, I saw him as scum. But no, I no longer saw him as D1 lynch because of Thor's fake hammer.

[Ircher]

Also, assuming we mislynch today, D3 is LyLo.

[Ircher]

Hence my warning earlier, but that warning is more relevent tomorrow; we should be lynching in the following pool today:

{Shannon, Ircher, Egg, YA} in no particular order. Doubting our townreads isn't going to help us at all for today.

[Ircher]

How about taking what I say at face value?

Does it really seem THAT absurd for a townie to behave the way they did?

[Ircher]

Also, I expressed numerous times why I thought the Radja/Utl case was flawed on D1, so you can rule out the option that I was scum trying to force a ML on Radja.

[Ircher]

I have not put as much effort into this game (much like Newbie 1682), yet my meta will clearly show that this behavior is rather typical of me. I am being sincere in my posts.

[Ircher]

Ircher, you have 48 hours to convince me not to vote for you or I will vote for you, EVEN IF if is a hammer. You MUST do at least one of the three:

1) role claim without a counter claim (IF HE ROLE CLAIMS NO ONE COUNTER CLAIM UNTIL I DISCUSS THIS FURTHER)
2) successfully defend yourself against the accusations, both from me and others
3) find an even stronger lynch candidate

Consider this advance warning of intent to hammer. You have PLENTY of time to see this and react accordingly.

NO ONE HAMMER IRCHER BEFORE MY DEADLINE IS UP. ESPECIALLY NOT YA.

Here's my defense:

I am being sincere. While sincerity leads to trouble (see N1666), it's still sincere & therefore I'm town.

[Ircher]

How about taking what I say at face value?

Does it really seem THAT absurd for a townie to behave the way they did?

Yes. It really does seem THAT absurd for a townie to behave the way you did. At face value, you thought that UTL/Rad was a clear mislynch (99% odds), and just tossed in a couple of comments here and there against it as opposed to making any kind of genuine effort to derail it.
Note: your "efforts" here seemed to mainly be:
559

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

566

Anyway, conf. bias isn't one of those things you point out; you can tell by looking at how the players respond. In this case, UTL seemed overky focused on you and keen to point out the slightest errors you made. But, I have a good feeling that she truly thought you were scum and didn't realize she was tunneling you.

674 (post hammer)

If Radja is town, YA is guaranteed scum.
Radja scum meabs high possibility that ya is scum.

So when you say

Also, I expressed numerous times why I thought the Radja/Utl case was flawed on D1, so you can rule out the option that I was scum trying to force a ML on Radja.

it simply doesn't fly. You tossed a bit of doubt onto the lynch, but if you were THAT sure that UTL/Rad was a mislynch, you needed to do most or all of the following:

- clearly and aggressively state that you thought it was a bad wagon;

I'm not aggressive, but I clearly explained why -- evident confirmation bias from Utl

- attack the logic of the people who were voting there;

The case is factually sound, but doesn't consider motives and the like. Aka, people ignored the logical possibility that it could be TvT with confirmation bias mixed in. Which, again, I did address D1.

- be on a plausible counter wagon at EOD (in this case, nearing EOD it was super clear that Egg was the ONLY plausible counter wagon);

This is a fair point. Okay, so a bit of an expansion on my switch to Shannon : 1) I already thought the wagon was derailed by Thor (yes, tech I did kill it) 2) Shannon's replace in struck me as scummy 3) I was being lazy and didn't feel like making cases. I'm better at reading town and PoEing scum

- clearly and aggressively sell the Egg wagon even after the fake hammer stuff (or do the same for a different counter-wagon).

Not my playstyle, and with such a low content slot, very hard to get anything besides pl level stuff on ir. Lurkers can be scum. Stop forgetting that lurkers have a habit of being scum, ESPECIALLY Newbie games cuz of the number of newbie scum flakes (hence the DayTalk experiment)

Instead you were

0/4.

2/4

- If you were being fair to me, you'd at least give me 2/4.

You say you thought it was a clear mislynch, yet your efforts amounted to shrugging and saying "hey guys, I

kind of

think you

might possibly be

are

making a mistake here". And the most meaningful thing you did with respect to the UTL/Rad wagon was ABANDONING THE COUNTER WAGON. When push came to shove, your vote was simply not where it needed to be given your stated opinions of the game state.

See my confession above. Yes, the vote move was wrong, but cannot fix mistakes you know.

Seriously, that's horrendous townie behavior. MAYBE I could consider giving a pass for a total newb town

A meta dive will help you read me.

pulling that kind of crap. But you're not. So no pass here. Or am I misreading you? If so, please explain how.

Meta: Seen as an easier mislynch target, generally, this stuff happens unintentionally and I don't realize my mistake til well after. I've gotten better, but my work ethic here has decreased resulting in scummier behavior as I don't take the time to expand on things.

PPE I guess I'll have to dig into your meta since you can't excuse your behavior on the face of it. I will say that if you're town you seriously need to work on upping your game. Because what you did, given what you state your perspective was, was outright horrific.

Give me some slack, will you? Ok, maybe what I did D1 wasn't the best play (or even good play), but nonetheless, it could've been worse. I don't intentionally do stuff that gets me mislynched. I just post without thinking of all possibilities & therefore get mislynched. I am still very new to Mafia. I have a very small amount of experience elsewhere (2 games on a non-mafia related forum), so all of my experience playing has been on this site.

Stuff in bold

[Ircher]

Ircher, you have 48 hours to convince me not to vote for you or I will vote for you, EVEN IF if is a hammer. You MUST do at least one of the three:

1) role claim without a counter claim (IF HE ROLE CLAIMS NO ONE COUNTER CLAIM UNTIL I DISCUSS THIS FURTHER)
2) successfully defend yourself against the accusations, both from me and others
3) find an even stronger lynch candidate

Consider this advance warning of intent to hammer. You have PLENTY of time to see this and react accordingly.

NO ONE HAMMER IRCHER BEFORE MY DEADLINE IS UP. ESPECIALLY NOT YA.

Here's my defense:

I am being sincere. While sincerity leads to trouble (see N1666), it's still sincere & therefore I'm town.

I don't find this terribly convincing. Even as town, sincerity that gets you into trouble isn't amazingly productive - if you get mislynched, you've effectively allowed the scum two kills (your mislynch and a subsequent NK). While you should of course try to provide accurate and complete information, doing so in a way that ends with substantial suspicion on you isn't desirable.

Literally, rthat is my meta. I've yet to have a scum game, but nonetheless, you read players based on their playstyle which generally means having an idea of their meta.

I infer metas fyi and I'm usually pretty good at it. But, some people have to do the meta dives & I'm sure I'm a bit of a wildcard that would neccessitate it. But, the first step to finding scum is to communicate with your scumreads in a way that does not include conf bias.

[Ircher]

So, you don't believe me?

Tough luck; town will lose this. And no, I'm not a bad player, I am a unique player.

[Ircher]

And, the lack of a scum game means little.

Sure, no one has seen scum me, byt one would imply that it be similar to town me with a few changes I shall not divulge. Regardless though, I'm saying that if you don't understand the way I play, you will read me wrong every single time. That's how Radja was able to read me (correctly); he modded N1682 and therefore had a general idea of my playstyle.

[Ircher]

@Mhsmith

Learn a little more about my playstyle, then ask me any questions you still wish for me to answer.

[Ircher]

...
Here's my defense:

I am being sincere. While sincerity leads to trouble (see N1666), it's still sincere & therefore I'm town.

I don't find this terribly convincing. Even as town, sincerity that gets you into trouble isn't amazingly productive - if you get mislynched, you've effectively allowed the scum two kills (your mislynch and a subsequent NK). While you should of course try to provide accurate and complete information, doing so in a way that ends with substantial suspicion on you isn't desirable.

@YA: Do you find Ircher sincere here? Why or why not?

From someone besides my own perspective, I would find it null & could go either way tbh.

[Ircher]

A meta dive will help you read me. pulling that kind of crap. But you're not. So no pass here. Or am I misreading you? If so, please explain how. Meta: Seen as an easier mislynch target, generally, this stuff happens unintentionally and I don't realize my mistake til well after. I've gotten better, but my work ethic here has decreased resulting in scummier behavior as I don't take the time to expand on things.

Okay so basically you say a meta dive will help get a read on you...
you also say you get mislynched- but even though you have gotten better you havent put much work into this game- okay you have been posting quite a bit! wait your defense is basically you are a bad town player???? like that is all you got?

Not at all what I'm saying. You can tell when I'm putting a lot of effort into the game; you already have evidence of such when I replaced in. Post count has luttle to do with effort; here's how you see how much effort I'm putting in: look at the number of spoilers I make.

Give me some slack, will you? Ok, maybe what I did D1 wasn't the best play (or even good play), but nonetheless, it could've been worse. I don't intentionally do stuff that gets me mislynched. I just post without thinking of all possibilities & therefore get mislynched. I am still very new to Mafia. I have a very small amount of experience elsewhere (2 games on a non-mafia related forum), so all of my experience playing has been on this site.

again you are just saying you are a bad town player... oh a bad new town player

Not bad, but yes, new.

Literally, rthat is my meta. I've yet to have a scum game, but nonetheless, you read players based on their playstyle which generally means having an idea of their meta.

okay so you want people to meta dive but you havent had a scum game.... like...how can someone meta read you if you have never played one of the alignments. That makes no sense.

I see other people who lurk as their playstyle and they get away with it. Just lost to that guy in fact TWICE because he has a meta of lyrking and not contributing enough. So, what you are basically saying is that my meta means absoluteky nothing and everyone should play the same way? No, I know you are better than that and simply do not understand what you said. Meta is a tool. You learn how people play by looking at it. Once you understand a player's playstyle, you can better guage their alignment. So, even if meta is null, it is still important to have an idea or else you cannot have an accurate of a player.

839- YA- this seems like a weird defense. this is a stawman I think- you are saying his approach is bad when that is not what smith argued- you are defending Ircher for bogus reasons that I don't believe you believe.

Not sure if YA is being Sincere but I lean towards is. And his reasoning is quite frankly not bogus, but again, not sure what to make of it. He obviously would realize that buddying to me as scum would be a poor choice since the defense isn't spectacular, so I lean towards Town YA here.

[Ircher]

YA is being open as is mhsmith0.

That unfortunately leads me with {Egg, Shannon} for lynch canidates for today's lynch. While YA could be scum buddying me, I'm not seeing that as the case. And, despite the hammer, I think it was a misunderstanding at this point, so grats YA, you've earned a townread from me me.

Which, leaves me by PoE Egg and Shannon.... Go figure......

[Ircher]

Also, @YA
Here's the good part about this exchange even if I get lynched:

Town can still analyze it and see why people were on the wagon, why people were off, and determine motives for player's stances. Which is exactly what Mhsmith has done in regards to the Radja lynch and me. I just am simply requesting that mhsmith gets to know my playstyle better that way we're on the same page & mhsmith understands that there may be town motive behind my actions. Aka, I'm not using meta as a pure defense even if it seems like it, I am simply bringing it up so people do not guage me wrong and mislynch me simply cuz they don't understand how I play. Basically, you have to have a fpundation or basic guidelines to base your read on, and in my opinion, meta fulfils this purpose.

Takes from this convo:

Mhsmith0 is very likely town. He has seen a problem in what I've done and is addressing is. He is in addition willing to look at what I say rather than simply disregard everything I say as scum creating WIFOM.

YA's defense of me makes him likely towm. While he could be trying to buddy me, that would really look bad on him later if I were mislynched as my defense tbh is not spectacular (but do note that it is plausible & reasonable). It isn't just a random townread/not scum read either. He has given his jystification for what he has said, and is willing to argue it, even if he is wrong.

I am interested in @Kaag and @Shannon's take. I would like @Egg opinion too.

[Ircher]

@SIW
Now, I cannot say for sure for Egg since he doesn't have a meta yet, but generally in newbie games, the less cooperative newer players are more likely scum versus the newer players who just cannot understand what is going on. Lurking's a valid (scum) tactic, but I highly frown upon it as it becomes ridiculously difficult to read those slots and make convincing arguments against them.

Scum will sometimes stay quiet/remain uncooperative when they're found which generally just make it even more likely for them to be lynched, so if you are scumread, the number one thing you shouldn't do imo is lurk/refuse to attempt to answer questions.

The above is my general thoughts on the matter & may or may not be accurate.

[Ircher]

Last newbie game I played, I (and the rest of town) encouraged one of the first time newbies to just say whatever they thought and the person took the advice. This flip flopped my earlier scumread on the slot, and in the end, the slot was town. (Town won that day). On the other hand, the day before was a scum lynch on a newbie who practically said nothing and the only attempt the newbie made to getout of trouble was to fakeclaim bulletproof.

So, that explains why I feel this way.

[Ircher]

Am I reading this correctly, that Ircher thinks we should lynch from a pool that includes him?

Yes, you read it correctly.

[Ircher]

Well, right now, my vote will lie on Egg for two reasons: 1) PoE; I sorted YA today in regards of his defense of me 2) Egg is more likely scum than Shannon right now.

VOTE: Egg

L-2

[Ircher]

Only YA was naive enough to hammer by acident :p (no offense)

[Ircher]

If YA is scum and you're not, he'll quick hammer again and happily take us to LYLO with his partner a TBD item. Pass on that possibility, thank you very much.

And, YA would make him conf scum if he did that, now that we explained how lynching, twilight, and hammers work, and etc. I don't fear a qhammer from him unless he wants a lynch sentence.

[Ircher]

Fine with me.

[Ircher]

I will respond once I finish catching up.

[Ircher]

My view is:

Ircher should NOT claim

We keep the pressure on Ircher to defend the case.

We cajole Eggman to get involved, or we hope for a replacement.

We take our time.

I will support an Ircher lynch closer to the deadline, if nothing significant changes.

I agree with KAAG; I refuse to claim.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: The Case Against Lurkers aka Why mhsmith should not be advocating my lynch in the following 48 hours and why Eggman is probable scum

Which quite frankly, I don't think anyone should be lynching me until we sort Eggman.

Cuz, while YA and I may be advocating a "PL" on Egg; it isn't quite as radical as some of you people believe.

1. Scum have a reason to lurk & not say anything at all.
2. Scum have a reason not to put effort into scumhunting
3. Newbie scum replace outs is higher than town replace outs. Daytalk has helped here. With that said, Shannon and Egg have a higher chance of being scum: 1) Shannon's slot has been replaced twice (bad sign) 2) Egg's slot has been replaced onced but this "Egg" I'm seeing resembles almost exactly the "Njac" I saw from Newbie 1666 who was scum.
4. Egg is obviously trying to stay out of this mess. If he were town, I would imagine he would actually offer his opinion on this matter in a post that is longer than 1 line. He has yet to do so: he continues to lurk and avoid participating in behaviors that benefit town.
5. In addition, since he is the counterwagon to me, by stating out of the way, more attention and focus will be directed towards me and less will be directed to him.
6. I am 0-2 currently against a certain player who practically always lurks (as his meta); in addition, every game I've lost except the micro had at least 1 scum that lurked a lot. People should not just dismiss lurking as demonstrated here as non-alignment indicative. People should question lurkers and pay more attention to them; this is how lurkers win:

1) Lurker posts a few posts here and there
2) A townie notices this lurking and tries to get town to pay more attention to the lurker/try to get the lurker involved
3) Town ignores the townie, under the premise that lurking is not neccessarily alignment indicative
4) Someone accuses townie of seeking low hanging fruit and claims that as a result, that player is active lurking (which is considered worse than lurking)
5) When townie is forced to make a case against lurker that excludes lurking, the case is impossibile to make due to the very low number of posts by the lurker
6) Townie ends up being mislynched.
7) Lurker is never mislynched as no one questions their lack of substance (and if they do, that person is lynched) and no one can construct a case against them cuz there is nothing to piece together a case with.

Now, I'm not saying Egg cannot be town, but with this level of lurking & low content, it is very likely Egg is scum and if we, as town, do not force lurkers to participate, we will lose to them every single game. If the lurker is truly town, the lurker will begin to actually put some effort into looking town, finding scum, and playing the game. A great example of a redeemed townie is Broo from Newbie 1682 - Got scumread fairly early on, ended up lurking cuz of pressure & cuz he felt the situation was hopeless, town convince him to post more, town sees an evident change in the newbie's perspective and town wins.

Don't be fools and just let lurkers get away with stuff, force them to participate; threatening to lynch them (and I mean a real threat) will offer incentive to participate. We, as town, need to take a stance against lurkers. Simply asking them to participate won't make them participate, we must force them to participate. Not all lurkers are scum, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them completely.

If town is so ignorant as to ignore this call to action, then go right ahead and lynch me. But, if town wants to win, they will greatly consider what I said even if it doesn't change their scumread on me.

[Ircher]

(agh im sorry, this board moves super quickly and class is long)
Hey Ircher! Let me ask you some questions.
1. At post 755, you call Thor's townread of Shannon "mysterious". What was your opinion of Shannon at the time?

Gut stating Shannon was scum; the unexplained townread of Shannon by Thor just exacerbate it.

2. Post 785. Ryu did not get replaced "several" times, it was him then me. Was this an appeal to emotion of some sort, and if so, why? Is it just to throw some extra shade at me because I swear I have enough

I explain this in my one of my latest posts. Please read it, albeit I did not address this earlier.

3. You haven't been putting in effort? I don't think that's a very good thing to admit, and I'm pretty sure you should not use "my meta tho" as a defense.

You have put in 1% effort this entire game. I really don't think you should be commenting on that. As far as meta goes, I was emphasizing the importance of reading a person based on their play rather than by a "one size fits all" standard. Yes, it was a defense, but you missed the entire point of it.

4. Your big defense to Smith is that you're being sincere. But, uh, that's the perils of online Mafia. How do we know this? Can we trust you?

Simply AtE. Aka, I had no way of proving that, BUT I was not lying when I said that either. It was also some kind of joke btw.

@KAAG: what is a "proper case", and can you point me to an example of one in this thread?

@Smith:

Townies: Smith, KAAG, Me

Neutral: SiW, Shannon

I think these would be good lynches: Me, YA, Ircher

I want to see more posts like this, but I also want you address more than what is asked. Give better opiinions on smith, KAAG, SIW, Shannon, and YA too,

[Ircher]

@Ircher there is nothing remotely radical about policy lynches, that's why they're called 'policy' lynches and not 'I'm going to do this just because since I'm crazy' lynches

You say that, yet have you looked at what mhsmith, Shannon, and KAAG has thought so far as to PLing Egg? One can exaggerate; exaggeration is not a scum tell.

[Ircher]

Your post Eggman, is a good start. But you should not be in your own lynch pool: you are confirmed town to you, right? Why should we lynch a confirmed town?

I like the questions to Ircher.

Have you ever considered actual logical reasons why he may do that?

Including yourself in a lynchpool is not a scumtell. Claiming mafia is not a scumtell. Self voting is not really a scumtell, but it is frowned upon. See the pattern?

[Ircher]

The fact that mhsmith, Shannon, and KAAG underrate policy lynches is not a persuasive argument so far as I'm concerned.

Also, lynching lurkers imo is

not

policy lynching as I outlined in the spoiler.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Quote Wall

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
Mhsmith (95%) - A lot of this gets covered in my notes. The thing that really makes me townread Mhsmith though is when he finally realizes what KAAG was meaning to say. He couldn't see it past his tunnel.
KAAG (93%) - Nice early game & is engaged and trying to solve the game.
Summer (92%) - I see Summer doing lots of stuff that either a) I've done myself or b) Are common things newbies do. This is more than just a newbtown read though, I see a willingness to help out and to scumhunt.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
Aeronaut (65%) - The lurking has really dropped my confidence in this read. Overall, you seem to be scumhunting, so I'll lean town for now.
UTL (75%) - Tbh, a bit mixed here, but gut says Utl is town.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Yawn (-40%) - I really want to say this slot is town like Summer, but I don't see the same level of commitment as I do from Summer.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Green (-75%) - Has yet to post; I am very suspicious of a slot that replaces out multiple times. (Njac of Newbie 1666)

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Egg (-90%) - This slot has not been useful at all. I've seen zero scumhunting here and I don't understand why people are townreading this slot.

While scum could certainly be among the active (Summer, UTL, KAAG, mhsmith); I believe there's w high prob. of one of the lurkers to be scum (Egg, Green). Then, my slot & Yawn & Aero are kinda rpthe so-so activity. Out of all the lurkers, Egg's slot sticks out as the slot putting the least effort in this game. All of the posts the slot have posted (very few btw) have been defensive. Moreso, I don't see any evidence of scumhunting from the slot, unlike Yawn. Aatami/Green is a wildcard sloy imho.

You know, I've known about the ISO button for quite some time now, but I didn't know you could do combined ISOs. That might be something the IC should consider mentioning in future games, as it looks like a pretty useful tool.

Something seems off about Aero, not quite sure what.....

1.

You know what I find interesting? It's the fact that Aero never answered his own questions in 22.

2. In 29, Aero votes KAAG for the too townie argument -

Speculation -- Pins it on a gut read. Kinda seems like an overreaction; those answers seem sensible from any town player, esp. an experienced one. I'm not pushing associatives here, but you think this is genuine town Aero or scum Aero trying to subtlely misdirect us?

3. 40 - Aero says a post of KAAG's reads as newbie; since KAAG is an SE, sends out red flags -

Even with the combined ISO, I have no clue what you are referring to. All of KAAG's posts read as someone with experience to me imho.

4. Aero votes Yawn in 63 -

I just... don't get the right sort of feel here. The case at first looks decent, but if you look deeper, did Yawning really do something scum would do? The point about pessimistic attitude really doesn't hold up well and the fact Aero paints it as scummy as can be kinda seems strange. I play as I always do, yet I always expect a slightly larger margin of error with newbies because they don't have the on-site experience to guage the proper way of doing stuff.

5. KAAG states he sees town motive in Aero's posts -

I don't know... I'm starting to doubt that view. One thing to keep in mind is that a scum IC is unlikely to make the typical newbie scum mistakes & def. will be hard to catch. While in some ways, it may SEEM town-motivated; I'm starting to get the feeling this a scum IC who is involving town as part of his role as IC.

6.

Anyone else have the feeling that Aero is playing to a scum win con while fulfilling his role as IC? That's what I'm seeing. It may also partially explain why he's been prodded twice (busy ofc being the other half)

No real associations I see with KAAG, but nonetheless, Aero's slot is starting to read suspicious.

I think UTL is scum at this point- everything she has said with our conversation points to that.
I hope everything ends up being ok with her
I am going to look at Yawing now- this entire game I have had a hard time reading him so I am going to try to come up with something concrete.
as for Ryu I said my thoughts in my read. I wouldn't want him gone day one I don't think just because lack of info and his posts did not point me at scum. Eggman yet decided on- not enough info.
I am pretty sure Aeronaut asked me why I saw aatami as leaning town so I will find the posts that I liked.
Sorry for not posting too much lately- I have been swarmed with essays. Finals suck aha

Hey Eggman
if you want to make some of your own judgments on UTL look at the conversation between me and her.
This is where I became convinced she is scum.
I will probably post a full thing to everyone else why I think this all in one post.
I have explained to her why I think that- you can read and see but I will type up something more to make it clearer.

I find it more TvT with conf bias on UTL side. I may be wrong though!

I was thinking about doing an UTL reread, but I'm satisfied with Radja's replace in to the extent that can wait.

As far as Radja's readlist looks, looks pretty good to me (and it does coincide pretty well with my thoughts. Except, my read of Aero has prob. changed since my readlist).

I think that when Radja stated something about Egg & a VT claim, he merely misworded or ambiguously worded that. If he was SURE Egg was a VT, then he would HAVE to be Mafia. Basically, one mustn't be too keen on the way things are worded; generally, it's the underlying motive that matters more (scum most likely wouldn't say that they KNOW a person is a VT and then proceed to try to lynch them).

Fyi, I'm supporting only an Egg or an Aero lynch today. The former because its rather scummy, the latter because it is *ahem* suspicious and would also be a good info lynch.

Skimming Ryu/Egg's ISO, I see the following things:

Ryu

- 1. Poor communicator 2. Did a semi-decent job; equates to a neutral read I guess....

Eggman

3. His opening post 224 is self-contadictory. Has Aero and Mhsmith on the same tier as himself for what basically equates to gut reads. (As his Aero read is based on Aero being an IV). If Egg flips scum, that would suggest an assoc. with Aero. Says KAAG puts in a lot of effort, yet leantown?! Compared to a gutread, I would think that a read based on effort is >= a gutread. The UTL read is also basically gut (same basis as IC being town), so his reads are not coinciding with what he says in that post. He also leaves SIW out. Prob. a newbie mistake/oversight, but still... SIW was one of the more active ones.
2. Askes about fakeclaiming cop - Newbie trying to breadcrumb cop role.... Unlikely, as he later as he later claims VT
3. Claims VT when things begin looking bad - Antitown, but not neccessarily scum motivated
4. Seems to be acting newbie -- Generally not a tell EXCEPT when you ask how many VTs there are despite it being stated in post 0 or 1 of all newbie games.
5. Jumps on Radja for ambiguous terminology- Shame on KAAG for seeing that as a scumslip in the first place, but perhaps opportunistic in nature? I'm not sure....

Overall, pretty confident scumread here.

I just quoted a case on Scum Egg yet you ignore it........
VOTE: Shannon

Thor's slight townread and your entrances make me suspicious of both of you.

Cuz I always read in chronological order & my responses are based off that.

Oh, absolutely you read in chronological order - I'm not suggesting anything else.
I'm just wondering why you didn't react to the realization that it wasn't a hammer - especially when you'd been so violent when you thought it was, weren't you relieved? Weren't you at least thinking I was less of an idiot? Anything?

Apparently not, since you didn't add anything else.

But, after the level of initial response, the lack of followup reads weird - and that's what makes it look fake to me.
Liek if I just punched someone for sleeping with my girlfriend, and then found out he hadn't I'd, y'know...react to that new info. If I didn't it would be weird.
Like what you did.

My "case" on Ryu/Egg - Somewhat ambiguous (may be bad town) but compared to everything else, it's pretty strong & would be if this wasn't a newbie.

Your case is literally full of you admitting that the issues aren't really scummy - even right now, you're admitting it might be a good case if not on a Newbie, but then, y'know, noting it's on a Newbie.
It's really unimpressive to me.

What's your read on Yawning Angel?
Wanna lynch him instead?

Yawn and Summer right now are prob. newbtown. I'm pretty sure the YA case is worse than my Egg case

Chief suspects right now are Shannon and Thor.

The Thor case - Fake lolhammer, suspicious predecessor (which I summed up earlier), Association with Shannon, and trying to find scum motivation in a reaction to a fake lolhammer.

Shannon - Association with Thor, misrepping me in order to try to get me mislynched

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

ok so you think it is a good case... but is weakened by some mysterious conf. bias.
please direct me to this because apparently there is a lot of it that you see.

This is something you learn through experience. Do you know what muscle memory is? It works the same way as muscle memory -- The more times you see stuff like that, the more likely you will be able to understand what's happening.

Anyway, conf. bias isn't one of those things you point out; you can tell by looking at how the players respond. In this case, UTL seemed overky focused on you and keen to point out the slightest errors you made. But, I have a good feeling that she truly thought you were scum and didn't realize she was tunneling you.

See, Egg ISN'T TRYING. YA IS.

See the difference? Same can be said for SIW.

I've read the Utl case and it primarily consists of SJW/Utl, but there is evid. of Conf. Bias in the case, which weakens it s value. I prefer an Egg lynch, or even possubly a Thor lynch.

If Radja is town, YA is guaranteed scum.
Radja scum meabs high possibility that ya is scum.

Final reads:

Town

msmith
KAAG
Ircher
Summer
Eggman
YawningAngel
Shannon
Thor

Scum

Yeah, that sums up my current stance though I'm kinda mixed with the bottom 3; all of them have done stuff that makes one extremely suspicious of them.

You don't seem like a guy who gets his kicks out of lying to noobs and your points made sense so I took you at your word. I considered waiting on a claim, but gaming it out in my head it didn't seem like anything he could say would make much of a difference. A VT claim doesn't disincentivize a lynch at all, and PR claims are just as attractive for scum as for actual town PRs (who are highly likely to die that night in many setups anyway).

I know you read my discussions about proper play Day 1 - no where in there did I remotely suggest a hammer without a claim was a good idea.
So...if you don't think I'd lie to the point of wanting to leap ahead with a shorter day, why did you overlook the, y'know, other thoughts I had about how to do it?

[line][/line]

As far as I know twilight seems to be dangerous for town.
I don't think we should be putting all of our thoughts out there because we will soon find out if Radja is scum or town.
Giving free information to scum is bad.
saying things like "if he is town I will think or if he is scum I will think" is just giving out free information with no gain to town as far as I can see.

I think scum will NK *either* some one who is consistently on the right track, or someone who is currently on the wrong track but who is a persuasive leader. (Because being a good leader would become dangerous to scum if that person ever gets the *right* idea in their heads). They'd be fools to pick someone wishy washy, who is neither right nor persuasive, because that person isn't hurting their chances so much.

I don't know whether there is a habit of scum thinking this way? (Experts can you chime in?) But if so, I'm worrying about NKs for people like KAAG, Msmith, Summer, and Thor. They're all either good reasoners, good leaders, or both. If we have any doctors or protective types in the game, these are the people I think need protection. Anyone else have an opinion?

Unless they believe summer is a pr, they arent nking summer. Thor prob. isn't being nked. I'm surprised hou left me off the list tho.

I just reviewed your ISO very quickly. I left you off the list because I don't think you're persuasive, and you don't stick with one target all that long. I've colour coded because I'm a visual person.

377 - Vote

Green (my slot)

but say

Egg is suss

390 -

Aero reading suss

392 -

Vote Aero

439 - R

adja's reads of others look right

443 - Supports lynch on

Egg

or

Aero

483 -

Votes Egg to L-1

538 - Angry at

Thor(new Aero)

for (faux) lolhammer on Egg
553 - Vote

Shannon

due to my interactions

with Thor

556 - Summer and YA both newbtown, so others' case for YA is not as good as his

own case for Egg

557 - Chief suspects

Shannon

and

Thor

559 -

UTL(Radja)

case has merit but hampered by confirmation bias
590 - Prefers

Egg (1)

or

Thor (2)

lynch over

UTL/Radja

*YA hammers Radja*

675 - If

Radja is town

,

YA is guaranteed scum

.

If Radja is scum

,

YA is still probably scum

Based on this, can you confirm whether your best suspects are currently YA, Egg, myself, or Thor?

I need to look at you closer. My initial read of you was... poorly evidenced, yet some of the things you did gave me poor vibes. The seemingly easy yet slight townread Thor gave you, who I was suspicious of, caused me to see a possible association between the two of you.

I had already done a review of Aero and had concluded that Aero was acting strange/suspicious but not neccessarily scummy, per se. When Thor came along with his fake lolhammer and then jumping on my reaction to it seemed off. I will need to investigate Thor a bit closer tbh. Overall, the read there was strengthened by Thor's entrance, but it's still not definitive yet.

At first, I was thinking YA was pretty much newbtown after considering whether or not I'd do the same things if this were my first game. The main thing that struck me as super scummy was the hammer: I gave a warning about hammering without intent. Thor proceeded to pretend to do the exact opposite as a reaction test, yet he knew he didn't actually hammer, so that's forgivable. KAAG proceeds to remind people not to hammer before giving ~24 hrs intent prior, esp. without a claim. And YA in less than 10 posts (I think) goes and just hammers Radja.

Considering the recent events, Egg is prob. now a neutral read leaning towards scum now as the case was fairly weak (albeit imo better than the YA case at the time). PoE is a strong tool for town and that's why this read changed.

Also, I rescind my earlier statement suggesting that Radja town = YA guaranteed scum.

Considering YA's defense, while the move was still very scummy and definitely poor (as town), I think that a lack of explaining why just hammering is poor is part of the reason why YA executed the hammer.

Therefore, a town Radja flip has a high probability of YA scum and a scum flip has a moderate chance of YA scum.

Some quotes I selected.....

[Ircher]

The fact that mhsmith, Shannon, and KAAG underrate policy lynches is not a persuasive argument so far as I'm concerned.

Now, I will policy lynch a lurker if I have to, but it's never a strong case.

Ask me again if no improvement in 4 days: I'd rather give him a chance to get involved.

Your post Eggman, is a good start. But you should not be in your own lynch pool: you are confirmed town to you, right? Why should we lynch a confirmed town?

I like the questions to Ircher.

Have you ever considered actual logical reasons why he may do that?

Including yourself in a lynchpool is not a scumtell. Claiming mafia is not a scumtell. Self voting is not really a scumtell, but it is frowned upon. See the pattern?

In Eggman's case, I'd say I'm 99% certain the answer is inexperience. I am simply trying to help him, I made no comment on his motivation.

In that case, don't be agreeing with mhsmith's quicklynch advocation on me and give Egg some time to post & help us decide his alignment. Aka, the exact reason why I posted that case/info.

[Ircher]

I haven't been very useful all game so I wouldn't be opposed to being lynched.
That said, I believe that Ircher would be the better lynch today, 'cuz scumhunting! If he is town, at least I tried!
I'll try to go into more detail and make a case later, because I have to do homework now.

Better be good.

[Ircher]

The former sounds like Zombie from N1666, the latter sounds like Broo from N1682. Both of those players were town, but radical difference in how they were perceived in the end.

Ofc, there's option c: "I'm scum and am hoping I can avoid a lynch by AtE."

Not neccessarily saying either is the case.

@Kaag
I don't want you to even be thinking about lynching anyone until we have sorted Egg, okay? If Egg puts a lot of effort, 48 hrs may be reasonable in terms of lynching me. But, the crucial factor here is Egg; my lynch (if it occurs) can and should wait until Egg is sorted.

@Mhsmith0 - This esp. applies to you.

[Ircher]

Are you implying I haven't, cuz if so, that's rather untrue. I'll provide a readlist soon tho.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
KAAG (95%) - Fair, unbiased, open, and actively participating and being good town. (Vague, but basically it).
Mhsmith (88%) - Similar to KAAG, but I do have a qualm with the initial speed he was advocating my lynch for. Overall, working this game out.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
SIW (80%) - Newb town; with Utl/Radja town, the TvT assoc. strengthens here.
YA (65%) - His defense of me seems natural and not opportunistic. His hammer yesterday seemed to be a newb mistake that is the result of misunderstanding how things work, making it null. More on his def: YA/Ircher was scumteam, then his defense of me would basically be suicide. If it was Egg/YA, he'd get called out for trying to bus Egg and would benefit more from trying to lynch me for the association becomes weaker. So, likely newbtown here who miswords some stuff, etc.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Shannon (-63%) - PoE amongst other things. Gut says scum, though I haven't looked through the ISO.

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Egg(-82%) - I outline the reasons why in my "The case against lurkers...." spoilered post. Yes, its cuz of lurking, but lurking isn't policy material, it can be scum indicative, so pls don't discount this as an invalid reason.

[Ircher]

Anyway, my take is we get more out of Egg, then we discuss whether or not I'm being lynched. So, looking forward to Egg's case against me; I've done enough interacting for today.

[Ircher]

@Ircher: One clarifying question: that vote that I keep harping about: was "I just quoted a case on Scum Egg yet you ignore it........" directed at Shannon or Thor? First read I'd thought Shannon, but it seems like you were mainly talking to Thor around that point.

Ok, that was a bit ambiguous, I had to double check myself

But, despite voting Shannon. that part of the post was directed to Thor. I specified very vaguely the reason why I voted Shannon after the vote.

[Ircher]

@KAAG assuming no vote changes between slots, I would need to take further advice from the more experienced townies about which is the better play. My gut says that Egg is going to be useless going in to LYLO so we may as well lynch him now, but I worry that we won't get much useful information from doing so. (And you know, I can't tell whether he's lazy town or lazy scum, the slot claimed VT before, and I'd rather lynch scum over town, no matter how little the town is helping). I feel pretty good about Ircher being scum, but we need to give him an opportunity to defend himself properly. So honestly, I don't know.

I would very much appreciate an expansion / elaboration on what you mean here, @Shannon.

Specifically, what is your Egg stance and why?

This suggests to me that you are trying to avoid lynching Egg, yet at the same time, you think Egg is a good lynch. I need to have a more definite stance; you cannot be two polar opposites at the same time (in contrast to a mixed stance which I'm not really seeing).

I'll clarify the problem in my next post.

[Ircher]

Shannon's Reasons for not Lynching Egg

1. Lack of useful info
2. Cannot tell if lazy scum or lazy town
3. He claimed VT earlier and you'd rather lynch scum over town (?)

Shannon's Reasons for Lynching Ircher

1. Egg reads as unhelpful town (?)
2. Gut (!)

Here's my problem: Shannon is being very vague in his stance and apparently, his gut read of me is enough to lynch me on (I know mhsmith has more elaborate reasons, but this is what I'm seeing from Shannon). It REALLY looks more like Shannon is trying to avoid getting heat from my lynch, and despite thinking that Egg would be problematic in LyLo, simply drops the scumread by lazy town and the VT claim. That's what really isn't making sense -- the fact Shannon is against lynching Egg cuz of the VT claim.

If a player claims VT, one should avoid automatically assuming that a player is town. Scum can just as easily claim VT as town, so the claim is only useful for scum who are pr hunting. Discussing timing is simply inviting players to base reads on WIFOM.

Maybe I'm being biased, but what I am basically seeing is that Shannon is using Egg's impromptu VT claim as a reason to not lynch Egg. And it also seems to me that Shannon has a decent scumread of me, yet he only specifies what amounts to gut in his post. And yet, Shannon is undecided on who to lynch.

I can

absolutely

see town motivation for what Shannon has done;

however

, with the way this thread is going and the total lack of benefit of the doubt, I see quite some scum motivation in the post. (And, I crossed out the town part cuz this thread doesn't appear to believe in that being a possibility, so.... go figure....)

[Ircher]

Fyi, I have nothing more to say right now, other than I am waiting on Egg's case.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Ryu/Egg ISO #2

1. In 13, Ryu asks what happens when 3 different alignments remain. -

Very strange question to ask, especially when the possibility does not exist, but nonetheless, nothing meaningful can be made of it. -

Null Indicative

2. In 25 and 72, Ryu emphasizes the fact that the UTL vote was a joke -

The only way I can say this is scummy is if I knew what prior experience Ryu had concerning forum mafia. Ryu made an RVS vote, yet then proceeds to emphasize it was RVS for strange reaons. If he had prior experience, I could definitely say that is scum indicative due to the fact he is trying to disassociate himself from the hammer. If this is his first time though, then it makes more sense, though then the question arises about emphasizing it twice. That however is answerable, as Ryu later explains he is a poor communicator. If I give Ryu the benefit of the doubt, then that means I can also take the trying to fit in part as null. -

Null-Town Indicative

(Considering the evidence, I don't think he has forum mafia experience, and if that is the case, then everything else about the posts concerning this make perfect sense.)

3. 74 - Ryu also puts an FoS on YA saying it's simply gut -

Except this part. Again, I have to weigh in the poor communicator aspect. Someone needs to remind me what the VC was at the time. If the VC was less than 3, this is

Null-Scum Indicative

; else, it is

Null-Town Indicative

. This one needs to be kept in mind though it tells little by itself.

4. 92, Ryu states he has played EpicMafia as mafioso before -

Whoops, scratch that earlier conclusion (2) and replace that with -

Scum Indicative

as I am sure there is RVS on EpicMafia.

5. Ryu End Result ===> Neutral (-45%)

6. Egg gives read list in 224 -

Nothing alignment indicative here. There are a lot of "effort" reads, but I tend to make such an association a lot too. The only thing weird is the Aero read which is based on Aero being the IC, but I don't think it's a tell in and out of itself. -

Null-Indicative

7. In 275, Egg randomly brings up fake cop and asks why is it frowned upon. -

Another "noise" question that is completely irrelevent to the conversation on hand.... This is a bit of a stretch, but is how I perceive it -

Null-Scum Indicative

8. 371 - Egg does 1) VT claim 2) State he's useless 3) Unvotes YA, his only scumread........ -

This post is by far the worse post this slot has made. The VT claim & useless comment is akin to giving up - bad start. But, the worst part is the unvote of YA, his main and only scumread, with no reason other than "I'm, uh, not feeling it anymore" - Seems VERY opportunistic in nature (isn't this about when the YA wagon began to die?) and the utter lack of confidence he expresses in his unvote makes me think he isn't really committed to it; in fact, this post gives townie points to YA since Egg opportunistically got off the YA wagon with a half reason that isn't even confident! -

Very Scum-Indicative

7. 383 - Egg is asking others about the UTL slot, etc. -

Not sure what to label this as; really, I can go either way. Scum -- Doesn't want to take an active stance & wants to avoid any blame for a possible mislynch. Town -- Confused townie who isn't good at mafia. Oh well, I guess I have to go with -

Null-Indicative

8. More newbie questions in 384 and 429 -

Really hard to tell; genuine, or is it a false newbie facade to try to cover up his lack of content? I haven't really like the amount of effort so far, so I'm leaning toward the latter:

Null-Scum Indicative

9. Readlist at end of D1 by Egg in 697. I will come back to this, but the interesting part i I'm a townread.

10. By 787, Egg provides an updated readlist with me as Weak Town and.... votes me??? -

Now, look at #9 again. There is no mention of me by Egg at all between the posts, but I'm suddenly deserving a vote? No, that doesn't cut it for me; when making that drastic of change of read, you need an actual reason, even if it is gut or PoE (neither of which you specify; you simply say Shannon is ranked lower (but interestingly enough have YA on the bottom tier), omgus me, and say I have an aggressive playstyle (not at all, it's analytical)) - Omgus in this case is very weak, weaker imo than gut. And what you said does not seem to match up with what you do. We can also add in the town lose attitude (we should lynch Ircher D2 then me D3 which is a town loss if you are town), we can safely conclude -

Very Scum Indicative

11. Asks me some decent questions in 935, but now I'm in the bottom rung..... -

This time, Egg is being more consistent with doing what he says, so I must -

Town Indicative

12.

Combine that with the lurking and defeatist attitude and what I perceive as not trying -

Null-Scum Indicative

That still leaves me with a strong scumread on Egg AND, it is a huge improvement over my earlier case and is imo lynchworthy.

[Ircher]

And another listed that as a reason I scumread him. Maybe I hinted once or twice, but no irrationale conclusions please.

[Ircher]

And, though assoc. tells can be useful down the road, one can still be scum without providing obvious associative tells.

So therefore, even though Egg currently lacks a likely partner via association, you shouldn't just rule out the possibility he is scum.

[Ircher]

yea that is totally understandable!
but we need to try to find the motive behind actions.
what is the motive? why is the buddy okay with this? and so on.
I think these are important questions to be asking.
we don't have to be looking for a particular scum buddy BUT if he is scum we know he has one.
since you are pushing this case I want to know what you think about it! so possible motive, scumbuddy ect?

My guess for a buddy is in {mhsmith, shannon} tbh.

Mhsmith has the possible assoc. for pushing my lynch which Egg is the counterwagon to. I highly doubt that the scumteam is YA/Egg. And SIW doesn't really fit in all, but I gotta keep an eye there. KAAG I still extremely townread & just don't see scum there.

[Ircher]

I do think my updated case on Egg has some good evidence to back them that does not exclusively relie on his lurking.

Egg promised a case/big post and has not upheld it.

Finally, I ask mhsmith to give me til 24h 20m after this post, as I have school still at 5 Pacific (Im in EST)

[Ircher]

So when and if I am lynched, I can give any final 2 cents I may want to give. Is that not protown to allow a townie a final chance to speak?

If I'm Mafia, you can dismiss what I say as wifom

I'm asking for until 4PM EST (GMT-5) tommorrow if that's when you are making your final decision.

On the other hand, if you want to lynch me right now or very close to now, then feel free to do so.

[Ircher]

I refuse to roleclaim as that's a lose situ for town.

Basically, if I think of anything between now & then, I don't won't to be hammered before I get to speak.

I don't have anything right now though, I just don't want to get cut off for no good reason. You can hammer me now as I am prob. not going to contrib anymore, but I want that possibility open if I decide to. Understand?

[Ircher]

Fine, I claim VT.

Its lose cuz if I don't get lynched, scum aren't nking me & will prob. be able to deduce who's the pr at this point.

[Ircher]

Also, I am asking that smith either hammer now or give me 24 h, but not something inbetween; its an ultimatum.

[Ircher]

Your last read list:

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
KAAG (95%) - Fair, unbiased, open, and actively participating and being good town. (Vague, but basically it).
Mhsmith (88%) - Similar to KAAG, but I do have a qualm with the initial speed he was advocating my lynch for. Overall, working this game out.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
SIW (80%) - Newb town; with Utl/Radja town, the TvT assoc. strengthens here.
YA (65%) - His defense of me seems natural and not opportunistic. His hammer yesterday seemed to be a newb mistake that is the result of misunderstanding how things work, making it null. More on his def: YA/Ircher was scumteam, then his defense of me would basically be suicide. If it was Egg/YA, he'd get called out for trying to bus Egg and would benefit more from trying to lynch me for the association becomes weaker. So, likely newbtown here who miswords some stuff, etc.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Shannon (-63%) - PoE amongst other things. Gut says scum, though I haven't looked through the ISO.

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Egg(-82%) - I outline the reasons why in my "The case against lurkers...." spoilered post. Yes, its cuz of lurking, but lurking isn't policy material, it can be scum indicative, so pls don't discount this as an invalid reason.

Still good?

Maybe move Shannon to neutral, but yes for the most part.

[Ircher]

Where Egg's case.....

I think he is simply stalling til I'm lynched; AlwaysInnocent did the same thing in N1666 on D3 when I was mislynched in LyLo.

[Ircher]

Ircher, I'll give you the 24 hours you requested, although at this point it's mainly just an extended twilight due to the possibility that you might be town having a terrible game, since given your VT claim, unless you have a HELL of a case on someone else, the lynch isn't moving.

This is rather typical of a game for me. Sometimes I get deathtunneled like here, but typically, I survive a few days til death.

[Ircher]

VT claims are useless cuz mafia can fakeclaim VT very easily. Furthermore, there are at least 5 VT in this setup.

[Ircher]

Yes, which is why I refused to claim earlier. But everyone insisted......

[Ircher]

I've tried to put together a case, but I'm not sure what to say or what to quote that hasn't been quoted by someone else already. So, here's some stuff I don't think anyone has harped on yet.

Also it takes me a while to write this stuff because I'm not good at it

I actually do a lot of wagon hopping for fairly small reasons... It's just something I do, I temd to vote the one who has mostly recently and consistently given me scumvibes.

This feels like a fishy excuse to try and get out of the heat of that question in particular.

Fair, but not really convincing if you looked at my meta

Hence my warning earlier, but that warning is more relevent tomorrow; we should be lynching in the following pool today:

{Shannon, Ircher, Egg, YA} in no particular order. Doubting our townreads isn't going to help us at all for today.

794, this was right before SiW voted Ircher. Why do you have yourself in your own lynch pool? Do you think you're scummy? Are you the mafia? Were you subtly encouraging SiW, Smith, and KAAG?

I've done stuff like that as town before. Take N1666 for example.

Fine, I claim VT.

Its lose cuz if I don't get lynched, scum aren't nking me & will prob. be able to deduce who's the pr at this point.

...You do know, VT claims are pretty much worthless 'cuz both mafiosi can claim the exact same thing

(says the guy whose only defense was claiming VT... let's move off of that)

.Going back to matrix6, if you were actually VT that means that {Smith, KAAG, Shannon, SiW} would be the pool for mafiosi and PRs.

And your point? Also, whats with the strike through? Ive presented more of a defense than that and Ive written a case on you. Forcing me to claim gives mafia a high chance of night killing the pr.

[Ircher]

It doesn't; only if you dont lynch me.

[Ircher]

I stand where I was.

Plus you know full and well Ive been busy.

You can hammer whenever.

[Ircher]

Yes, lynch Egg tomorrow. Ive already outlined why.

Also, if we still have an investigative, they should roleclaim tomorrow as they will be limited use afterward.

[Ircher]

If we are actually going to be in LYLO/MYLO (I still think not but I guess we'll see), then I'd say the following:

1) NO ONE QUICK VOTE. DO FOS OR THE LIKE. A BAD QUICK VOTE LEADS TO TWO SCUM ON WAGON LEADS TO GG AND SCUM SWEEP.

2) We probably need to have everyone role claim. This should be in order of most to least suspicious. My suggestion would that everyone picks whoever they think is LEAST suspicious and that person gets to make the list of who has to claim in which order. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though; what is the proper LYLO strategy is a useful discussion to have if/when we're actually in it.

Since I'm flipping, let me make that list:

KAAG
mhsmith0
SIW
YA
Shannon
Egg.

Whoops, thats opposite; flip it.

[Ircher]

So, role claim in this order:

Egg
Shannon
YA
SIW
mhsmith0
KAAG

[Ircher]

@Egg Really? You had to remind them?

[Ircher]

And again,

Do not vote in LyLo. Scum can take the opportunity to possibly hammer during that time. Vote only at concensus (deadline).

[Ircher]

@KAAG Now you understand what I mean to an extent about my mislynch rep.

So, for tommorrow: Roleclaim, analyze investigative results (if any) and then pressure Egg in to participating much more. He's still kinda sliding by imho.

[Ircher]

I'm nulling my Shannon read, so quite frankly, YA, Shannon, or even SIW could be Eggs partner. KAAG & smith might be too, but I find it less likely.

[Ircher]

[Ircher]

Wait, Shannon tracked me N1 yet still was ok with my lynch? Shannon -- While the tracker doesn't clear me, it should make you think twice about lynching me.

[Ircher]

You had it D3... While its not all Almost50's fault, that tunnel after replacing really changed this from possible town win to unlikely town win.

[Ircher]

Another loss for me... How disappointing...

But KAAG did imo deserve a win (Clumsy/YA meh)

[Ircher]

Yes. Had I not been lynched D2... When Egg would've been a better lynch & the fact the Tracker tracked me and got an inno (though ofc, not absolute, still something to consider)

[Ircher]

^ Agree with that

[Ircher]

@Smith
You were great D3. The KAAG lynch fyi was superior to a YA lynch D3 imo.

[Ircher]

I think it may have to do with my meta and playstyle. This is my tenth completed game; town all ten games, and avoided ML only twice. In both those games, town won.

[Ircher]

Nope. Its disappointing tbh.

And, I have yet to been NK'd in a completed game.

[Ircher]

Some Quick Facts about me, esp. since Newbie 1691 just ended:

1) I have 10 completed game
2) Out of those 10 games, I've been town 10 times and scum 0 times.
3) Out of those 10 games, I've been mislynched 7 times
4) Out of those 10 games, I've never been NK'd
5) Out of those 10 games, I've been endgamed once
6) Out of those 10 games, I've lost 8 times and won only twice.
7) Out of the 2 games I've won, I wasn't lynched or killed.

[Ircher]

But, @Smith

Not having absolute confidence/doing things carelessly is quite common for me. I voiced my opinion even if not well.

[Ircher]

True... If I saw what you did D3 though, my mind would've changed quite some.

[Ircher]

I do try to do better ya know, but still... Playstyle is playstyle & miracles dont happen.

[Ircher]

1 of them was a Dayvig actually. And, I'm not sure what I did wrong in the Modified Greatest Idea game......

[Ircher]

No, but you should've been more catious in voting me.

[Ircher]

*cautious

[Ircher]

@Mhsmith
What would you say my strengths are?

[Ircher]

I dont know what made you tunnel smith.....

[Ircher]

Its fine smith.

[Ircher]

Sounds like me to a lesser extent tbh.

[Ircher]

Read scumchat. Also, SIW protected smith both nights.

[Ircher]

Regarding the fakehammer by Thor:

It was genuine reaction. I had forgot about the Vote Change, so I thought you truly hammered.