Open 634: Sharing is Caring (Game Over)

[Persivul]

Cakez has been on site today and made a few posts, but not a whole lot.

[SirCakez]

That's because my phone service has gone to shit recently and I can't make big posts like the ones I'm about to make from mobile.

[SirCakez]

This is pretty silly though. A hammer wasn't going through without both you and Anen voting. Witholding my vote just so I could hammer as scum would be pointless.

Not really, and I saw ChilledTea explaining it later.

I still don't understand this, "not really" isn't very helpful.

It was sarcasm if the rolling eyes didn't make it obvious.

Still a null at best.

I wasn't arguing it was indicative of anything so ok?

Cakes, do you know that persivul is scum, or do you feel that persivul is scum?

Both

At this state of the game this made no sense.
ChilledTea is not scum, nor me. So if SirCakez is town he

must

know Persivul is scum (and vice versa).

I know he is scum, and I feel he is scum. That's why I was pushing him mainly the whole day even before you and chilled became conf town. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm aware the hammer is important lol. I'm saying it's mostly irrelevant due to the fact no lynch was going through without both of you regardless.
And it wasn't me vs Persivul solely until a day or so ago also, you two weren't 100% confirmed town until then.

I don't think NoLynch was ever considered seriously as an option.
And the lack of your vote is indeed concerning.
Persivul was examining me as a possibility and I was a real option for ChilledTea for a long time. We can't rule out that you wouldn't have turned against me if a vote for me had arrived.

I think it was, there was a big discussion about who the nightkills would point to.
I was hard townreading you the whole day and you think I would have turned against you if you had gotten votes on you? Hell no.

Yeah but you were pretty confident of anen and I wasn't. What were you waiting for before voting? You weren't even trying to figure out anen (or me) all you did was try and figure out persivul. Your actions have been regarding persivul only so you should have either voted him or you should have been doubtful of anen.

Also that.

I responded to this already pretty sure. Basically I was focusing on Persivul because he's the one I thought was scum. I'm not going to branch out and "investigate" a hard townread.

Because I was trying to sort out the two remaining scum rather then pressuring specific people, it's clear from my ISO that day.

Show me those posts.

I'll grab quotes in my next post.

I too have a question, both for Persivul and SirCakez.
If you were scum, whom would you have targetted at Night1 for the Kill and why?

Probably you since you were a consistent townread for me the whole day

[SirCakez]

My lynch pool today was going to be (Max, Chilled, Clumsy) but I think Ranger's right that that was a crumb clear. I remember thinking it was a bizarre townread at the time, makes much more sense if she had a clear on him.
So then yeah Max or Clumsy is fine for the lynch today.

I could see Persivul as a busser on Shotty. He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself.
Maybe Max/Persivul?

Anen I'm not ruling him out, I just saw the Max/Persivul pairing more likely then, for example, Clumsy/Persivul or Clumsy/Max from the VCA you did.

I haven't received much pressure, true.
I really think Anen is town here though and Max's case on him doesn't read well to me at all

Clumsy what are the "good points" of the wall?

I am very sure Anen is town here, especially after these last few posts. Max's defense is just making me more confident that Anen's right here.

Quotes for Anen

[SirCakez]

This is horrible.
SirCakez and Persivul are just mirroring each other. When Persivul's pressurized, SirCakez does almost nothing. When SirCakez gets pressurized, Persivul does almost nothing.

You know what's horrible? When chilled votes cakez, you said he ninja'd you, indicating you had been planning on voting cakes. You wouldn't be putting someone at L-1 if you weren't comfortable with lynching them. Yet, he remains unlynched.

Taking your time to make a decision is fine, but putting someone at L-1 in mylo implies that you've made a decision, and saying that you ninja'd his vote implies that he was going to put cakez at L-1. I get that it's tough to be the one pulling the trigger, but regarding this:

SirCakez and Persivul are just mirroring each other. When Persivul's pressurized, SirCakez does almost nothing. When SirCakez gets pressurized, Persivul does almost nothing.

I have 180 posts and cakez has 140. I can't speak for cakez, but it seems to me that enough information is there from the course of the game, and the beginning of this day. Lack of information isn't the problem. What we do at this point when the other is "pressurized" is insignificant compared to what's already out there.

@anen: Here's an idea...let's lynch cakez and win this thing...

Wow you sure are eager for a lynch, huh?

[SirCakez]

I have no idea, other then presumably Tex checked you night 1 from the crumb clear post she made Day 2.

Why no idea? When you're a cop, do you (or would you, if you've never been one) target people at random? Presumably not. You have various criteria you use to select a target, and you could have applied those criteria to this situation and drawn some conclusions.

I don't know the mind of Texcat, why would I know who she thought seemed like a good target (other then crumbs like the Chilled one)? This is just shade throwing.

[SirCakez]

Ok caught up. Persivul's play now reeks of scum who's managed to reverse a predicament into an advantageous situation and is desperate for a win. Don't fall for his "lynch Cakez NOW and win" crap please.

[Persivul]

Wow you sure are eager for a lynch, huh?

Ok caught up. Persivul's play now reeks of scum who's managed to reverse a predicament into an advantageous situation and is desperate for a win. Don't fall for his "lynch Cakez NOW and win" crap please.

I figured you'd spin those comments that way, and you didn't disappoint. Yes, I'm eager for a lynch. Why shouldn't I be? This has gone on long enough considering pigeon's ninja comment. It's time for some rope.

[SirCakez]

Because if you were town, you would want to actually give the confirmed town time to make a decision instead of trying to pigeonhole one comment into "hurr durr you should have lynched him by now".

[Persivul]

1. They've had plenty of time.

2. More time isn't necessarily town. My job as town isn't to play by some stock town playbook. My job is to try to win the game. In mafia in general, and in mylo/lylo in particular, people tend to second-guess themselves as time goes by with little activity. I have to weigh the chance that pigeon and/or chilled will find my pushing scummy against the chance that chilled will second-guess himself as this drags on. In my estimation, pushing for a decision is currently the correct play. I know it may backfire, but that's the way it goes.

[Aneninen]

Taking your time to make a decision is fine, but putting someone at L-1 in mylo implies that you've made a decision, and saying that you ninja'd his vote implies that he was going to put cakez at L-1.

Wrong.
I've never said that I'd have voted for SirCakez if I hadn't been ninja-ed.
Also, by that time it had been clear for me that ChilledTea's a player who changes his thoughts whenever new information comes.

I have 180 posts and cakez has 140. I can't speak for cakez, but it seems to me that enough information is there from the course of the game, and the beginning of this day. Lack of information isn't the problem. What we do at this point when the other is "pressurized" is insignificant compared to what's already out there.

Pointing out this at a point when SirCakez seemed to be the more likely lynch is another thing I didn't like.

Already noted that in her case this is incorrect, as she didn't crumb chilled in her first post that day, and we all agree that she did crumb chilled later in the day. You have to move past the cliches and look at the individual.

Why do I feel that you're trying to manipulate me?

I think it was, there was a big discussion about who the nightkills would point to.
I was hard townreading you the whole day and you think I would have turned against you if you had gotten votes on you? Hell no.

Hmmmmmmmmm...
That would be a terrible gameplay if I were scum. And it would cost the game for the town.
But I think this answer was coming from a townie.

Quotes for Anen

Got it.
That was important.
By reading those posts something got very clear for me.
SirCakez's read progression included NO mislynch plan at all. 961 and 1034 were the most important posts. He didn't care about Clumsy's death, he simply went along following his reads.

[Aneninen]

I've made my decision.

Persivul's been trying to manipulate me and his latest posts have shown it clearly. (Eg. the fact how hard he's been trying to make me end the game with lynching SirCakez.) His gameplay is much more "gamestate-sensitive", I mean he's trying to exploit everything and turn everything on his side.
Meanwhile, SirCakez's gameplay is much slower. His reactions are silly sometimes, but still, he only follows his own "path" through the whole game. This would be terrible, really terrible if he misread players at MyLo/LyLo (or being close to it), but fortunately, in this particular game this is not possible.

VOTE: Persivul

[chilledtea]

Cakes is scum anen. Pretty sure of it.

[chilledtea]

UNVOTE:

We definitely need to talk about this. I agree that persivul has been attempting to manipulate, he has been doing that since the beginning of this day. Unfortunately, some town members tend to play that way as town. They think manipulating other members of the town gives them a better chance of surviving and this is sometimes not differentiable.

Persivul wouldn't have been this blatantly scummy if he was scum. He is not reserved, he is completely ruthless in his approach. That is town carelessness.

Cakes is slower? He knows he doesn't have to do much to get a win. If he plays it quietly he wins.

Why is persivul town? Because of day 1 - he pushed a lot of people and has generally been pro-active with his reads. He was pushed by shotty as a counter wagon. His interaction with shotty doesn't seem scum vs scum.

He has analysed the situation always. He doesn't reach a conclusion without reason, like cakes does all the time. Cakez is basically "Hey, these are my reads. It should be obvious why - " Persivul is "Hey these are my reads and this is the reason why - "

Remember the texcat question? Persivul gave the right answer. He is analysing the game and is town. Cakez is not in a position to analyse because he is scum.

Cakes waiting on his vote is a far bigger alarm than persivul trying to get his opponent lynched. Persivul's outburst was town.

[chilledtea]

Actually, I will keep my vote on, anen, just remember to give intent before hammering if you do hammer cakes.

VOTE : Sir Cakez

[chilledtea]

Oi pers, come here with your best defence coz you are gonna need it. If you can't convince anen then I would have no choice other than to lynch you.

[chilledtea]

I guess we could no lynch too. We might have to consider that as well, since we disagree with each other.

[Persivul]

Oi pers, come here with your best defence coz you are gonna need it. If you can't convince anen then I would have no choice other than to lynch you.

You made a nice summary of the main points above - and

I

don't need it, town needs it.

In reviewing my ISO, I don't know how anyone could read my D1 and think I'm scum. I was an asshole. There's no way I play scum like that. I even showed my two most recent games. I was salty in the town game, but pleasant in the scum game.

Today I've been pretty transparent in my thinking, while cakez is playing a very safe, close to the vest game.

The problem is that

pigeon already knows these things

. In

1284

he mentions my D1 play: "But I definitely felt the same about his gameplay on Day1." In

1188

he said regarding cakez, "Secondly, he broke down Persivul's posts but most of his answers lack real content." I could give more examples. So, how do I convince someone who is seeing my points and agreeing with them, but not making the right connections?

Unfortunately, I think the answer is in 1279: "Namely, if we lynch Persivul and SirCakez gets away with it, noone will blame us. But if we lynch SirCakez and he flips town, we won't be called good players for a long time..."

[Persivul]

Wrong.
I've never said that I'd have voted for SirCakez if I hadn't been ninja-ed.

That's what ninja-ing means - someone came and did what you were going to do before you did it.

[Persivul]

Persivul's been trying to manipulate me and his latest posts have shown it clearly. (Eg. the fact how hard he's been trying to make me end the game with lynching SirCakez.) His gameplay is much more "gamestate-sensitive", I mean he's trying to exploit everything and turn everything on his side.

And?

As I see it, you're interpreting the facts through this: "Namely, if we lynch Persivul and SirCakez gets away with it, noone will blame us. But if we lynch SirCakez and he flips town, we won't be called good players for a long time..."

So, yes, I need to try to manipulate you. Logical arguments don't overcome emotional impediments.

Plus, I can only work with what I have. You said the cakez vote ninja'd you and I'm working with that. If you didn't really mean it, then my arguments based on it aren't going to be accurate.

[chilledtea]

The observations that persivul is making comes from town, anen.

Saying "I think max/persivul is the most likely pairing" like sircakez said is one thing, however analysing why sir cakes is town and why maxous looks bad because of the shotty lynch like persivul did at the end of day 4 is another.

[Persivul]

The observations that persivul is making comes from town, anen.

Saying "I think max/persivul is the most likely pairing" like sircakez said is one thing, however analysing

why sir cakes is town and why maxous looks bad

because of the shotty lynch like persivul did at the end of day 4 is another.

Excellent point, and for another reason. We didn't know that Ranger would vig Clumsy.

If I were scum at that point, I would have been planning for two more lynches after max

- one with 5 people left, then one at 3 person lylo. The people I had to choose from:

Anen
Cakez
Chilled
Clumsy

Clumsy was being scum read by others and so was an easy choice, BUT...I still would have needed one more lynch to win. Where would I get that?

Anen - I put a town read on him in 1003
Cakez - I put a town read on him in 1007
Chilled - cop crumbed

I didn't leave myself another lynch after clumsy.

Here's a mafia PT showing that I do plan out NKs and lynches when I'm scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=62220

QED mothafuckas!

[Persivul]

This is the smoking gun. Scum knows that if Max goes, they need two possible mislynches. Clumsy is one. Chilled is basically conftown. Anen has been widely town read. That means scum!pers needs to start setting up cakez, or scum!cakez needs to start setting up pers.

Cakez is town. Check his D1 play. Decent pressure on multiple targets, first person on shotty, plenty of chances to move if the shotty pressure was just distancing, interactions with shotty don't read as SvS.

Here I say straight out that cakez is town. Scum!pers at best would have said something like

I'm not sure about cakez

. More likely he would have said

cakez pinged me in a couple posts, but I think max is scummier

. There's no way he can afford to give cakez a full town read here.

can nobody hammer until KT gets replaced anyway please?

shotty and pers are both fairly strong town-reads at the moment.

Why? Shotty is strong scum for me obviously and Pers is nullish town, not very strong.

haven't put together a readslist yet and think I should

(Blacle)
(Anen, Persivul)
(Maxous, texcat, chilledtea, Clumsy)
(wgeurts, Kuroi)
(Masquerade)

I could see Persivul as a busser on Shotty. He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself.
Maybe Max/Persivul?

Cakez begins setting me up out of the blue, after having me as a town lean previously.

Your thoughts Anen?

[SirCakez]

UNVOTE:

We definitely need to talk about this. I agree that persivul has been attempting to manipulate, he has been doing that since the beginning of this day. Unfortunately, some town members tend to play that way as town. They think manipulating other members of the town gives them a better chance of surviving and this is sometimes not differentiable.

Persivul wouldn't have been this blatantly scummy if he was scum. He is not reserved, he is completely ruthless in his approach. That is town carelessness.

Cakes is slower? He knows he doesn't have to do much to get a win. If he plays it quietly he wins.

Why is persivul town? Because of day 1 - he pushed a lot of people and has generally been pro-active with his reads. He was pushed by shotty as a counter wagon. His interaction with shotty doesn't seem scum vs scum.

He has analysed the situation always. He doesn't reach a conclusion without reason, like cakes does all the time. Cakez is basically "Hey, these are my reads. It should be obvious why - " Persivul is "Hey these are my reads and this is the reason why - "

Remember the texcat question? Persivul gave the right answer. He is analysing the game and is town. Cakez is not in a position to analyse because he is scum.

Cakes waiting on his vote is a far bigger alarm than persivul trying to get his opponent lynched. Persivul's outburst was town.

-"Too scummy to be scum" is a horrendous reason to townread people.
-How has my play recently been "quiet"?
-Pushing a lot of people is more a scum tell then town. Pro-active with his reads - not really? Go review his ISO, he just flung votes where they would stick.
-Persivul NEVER explained reads until Day 4 lol. For example he was all over Tex day 1 and never laid out a case there. I made a quote wall of posts talking about my Shotty read.
-"can't analyze because he's scum" what the fuck?
-Anyone can fake an outburst

like damn come on

[SirCakez]

Persivul's been trying to manipulate me and his latest posts have shown it clearly. (Eg. the fact how hard he's been trying to make me end the game with lynching SirCakez.) His gameplay is much more "gamestate-sensitive", I mean he's trying to exploit everything and turn everything on his side.

And?

As I see it, you're interpreting the facts through this: "Namely, if we lynch Persivul and SirCakez gets away with it, noone will blame us. But if we lynch SirCakez and he flips town, we won't be called good players for a long time..."

So, yes, I need to try to manipulate you. Logical arguments don't overcome emotional impediments.

Plus, I can only work with what I have. You said the cakez vote ninja'd you and I'm working with that. If you didn't really mean it, then my arguments based on it aren't going to be accurate.

This is super obvscum. Admitting he's twisting Anen's words into trying to force a lynch.