Open 634: Sharing is Caring (Game Over)

[Persivul]

This is super obvscum. Admitting he's twisting Anen's words into trying to force a lynch.

Total misrep. It's clear I'm saying that IMO Anen used the term incorrectly. When someone says they were ninja'd in a forum context, in my experience they're saying that another person said something that they were about to say themself. Chilled voted for you. Anen then said that chilled ninja'd his vote. I don't know how to take that other than to say that Anen had decided to vote you, but then held back only because Chilled had voted you.

[SirCakez]

The observations that persivul is making comes from town, anen.

Saying "I think max/persivul is the most likely pairing" like sircakez said is one thing, however analysing why sir cakes is town and why maxous looks bad because of the shotty lynch like persivul did at the end of day 4 is another.

The observations that persivul is making comes from town, anen.

Saying "I think max/persivul is the most likely pairing" like sircakez said is one thing, however analysing

why sir cakes is town and why maxous looks bad

because of the shotty lynch like persivul did at the end of day 4 is another.

Excellent point, and for another reason. We didn't know that Ranger would vig Clumsy.

If I were scum at that point, I would have been planning for two more lynches after max

- one with 5 people left, then one at 3 person lylo. The people I had to choose from:

Anen
Cakez
Chilled
Clumsy

Clumsy was being scum read by others and so was an easy choice, BUT...I still would have needed one more lynch to win. Where would I get that?

Anen - I put a town read on him in 1003
Cakez - I put a town read on him in 1007
Chilled - cop crumbed

I didn't leave myself another lynch after clumsy.

Here's a mafia PT showing that I do plan out NKs and lynches when I'm scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=62220

QED mothafuckas!

This is the smoking gun. Scum knows that if Max goes, they need two possible mislynches. Clumsy is one. Chilled is basically conftown. Anen has been widely town read. That means scum!pers needs to start setting up cakez, or scum!cakez needs to start setting up pers.

Cakez is town. Check his D1 play. Decent pressure on multiple targets, first person on shotty, plenty of chances to move if the shotty pressure was just distancing, interactions with shotty don't read as SvS.

Here I say straight out that cakez is town. Scum!pers at best would have said something like

I'm not sure about cakez

. More likely he would have said

cakez pinged me in a couple posts, but I think max is scummier

. There's no way he can afford to give cakez a full town read here.

can nobody hammer until KT gets replaced anyway please?

shotty and pers are both fairly strong town-reads at the moment.

Why? Shotty is strong scum for me obviously and Pers is nullish town, not very strong.

haven't put together a readslist yet and think I should

(Blacle)
(Anen, Persivul)
(Maxous, texcat, chilledtea, Clumsy)
(wgeurts, Kuroi)
(Masquerade)

I could see Persivul as a busser on Shotty. He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself.
Maybe Max/Persivul?

Cakez begins setting me up out of the blue, after having me as a town lean previously.

Your thoughts Anen?

Grouping these together since they're all about the same thing
Persivul clearly did not think Clumsy was getting vigged, he admitted as much himself. The plan was likely push on Clumsy the nest day then set me up on the day he was pushing Clumsy. He was expecting another day in there that he did not get, which is why his push from townread to scumread today is so awkward.
And his point about not leaving anyone to push is moot, because he is pushing me right now! The townread on me clearly meant nothing.

[SirCakez]

This is super obvscum. Admitting he's twisting Anen's words into trying to force a lynch.

Total misrep. It's clear I'm saying that IMO Anen used the term incorrectly. When someone says they were ninja'd in a forum context, in my experience they're saying that another person said something that they were about to say themself. Chilled voted for you. Anen then said that chilled ninja'd his vote. I don't know how to take that other than to say that Anen had decided to vote you, but then held back only because Chilled had voted you.

It seemed rather obvious to me that he meant his post got ninjaed, not vote. He's stated now as well that he didn't mean he was going to vote so ???

[Aneninen]

Sigh...

1371 and 1372 were strong from Persivul, whereas 1373 is very scummy, full of misrepresentations.

We're not ending the Day without a lynch. Even if there were another Day we wouldn't be able to get any new information. The Nightkill would be pure WIFOM.

I have one less request. Persivul, SirCakez, summarize your case on each other

in one single post

.
ChilledTea, if you wish, you can do the same but that's not necessary after all.

Then the Day shall be ended.

[SirCakez]

When I get home, hard to link stuff from mobile

[chilledtea]

UNVOTE:

We definitely need to talk about this. I agree that persivul has been attempting to manipulate, he has been doing that since the beginning of this day. Unfortunately, some town members tend to play that way as town. They think manipulating other members of the town gives them a better chance of surviving and this is sometimes not differentiable.

Persivul wouldn't have been this blatantly scummy if he was scum. He is not reserved, he is completely ruthless in his approach. That is town carelessness.

Cakes is slower? He knows he doesn't have to do much to get a win. If he plays it quietly he wins.

Why is persivul town? Because of day 1 - he pushed a lot of people and has generally been pro-active with his reads. He was pushed by shotty as a counter wagon. His interaction with shotty doesn't seem scum vs scum.

He has analysed the situation always. He doesn't reach a conclusion without reason, like cakes does all the time. Cakez is basically "Hey, these are my reads. It should be obvious why - " Persivul is "Hey these are my reads and this is the reason why - "

Remember the texcat question? Persivul gave the right answer. He is analysing the game and is town. Cakez is not in a position to analyse because he is scum.

Cakes waiting on his vote is a far bigger alarm than persivul trying to get his opponent lynched. Persivul's outburst was town.

-"Too scummy to be scum" is a horrendous reason to townread people.
-How has my play recently been "quiet"?
-Pushing a lot of people is more a scum tell then town. Pro-active with his reads - not really? Go review his ISO, he just flung votes where they would stick.
-Persivul NEVER explained reads until Day 4 lol. For example he was all over Tex day 1 and never laid out a case there. I made a quote wall of posts talking about my Shotty read.
-"can't analyze because he's scum" what the fuck?
-Anyone can fake an outburst

like damn come on

1) Too scummy to be scum is not the only reason to town read persivul. Also, "scummy" in this case basically means careless or uncontrolled behaviour which is most likely to come from town.

2) I've pointed out recently that you have been very reluctant from doing anything drastic. That's being quiet in my opinion.

3) No. Pushing people is town. He didn't push a lot of people but I agree with anen that his position on texcat was bad.

4) Not necessarily. I think he explained his short term town read on wgeurtz. He was never asked for an explanation till day 4 but he still gave analysis of the game.

5) Yes.

6) No.

[SirCakez]

UNVOTE:

We definitely need to talk about this. I agree that persivul has been attempting to manipulate, he has been doing that since the beginning of this day. Unfortunately, some town members tend to play that way as town. They think manipulating other members of the town gives them a better chance of surviving and this is sometimes not differentiable.

Persivul wouldn't have been this blatantly scummy if he was scum. He is not reserved, he is completely ruthless in his approach. That is town carelessness.

Cakes is slower? He knows he doesn't have to do much to get a win. If he plays it quietly he wins.

Why is persivul town? Because of day 1 - he pushed a lot of people and has generally been pro-active with his reads. He was pushed by shotty as a counter wagon. His interaction with shotty doesn't seem scum vs scum.

He has analysed the situation always. He doesn't reach a conclusion without reason, like cakes does all the time. Cakez is basically "Hey, these are my reads. It should be obvious why - " Persivul is "Hey these are my reads and this is the reason why - "

Remember the texcat question? Persivul gave the right answer. He is analysing the game and is town. Cakez is not in a position to analyse because he is scum.

Cakes waiting on his vote is a far bigger alarm than persivul trying to get his opponent lynched. Persivul's outburst was town.

-"Too scummy to be scum" is a horrendous reason to townread people.
-How has my play recently been "quiet"?
-Pushing a lot of people is more a scum tell then town. Pro-active with his reads - not really? Go review his ISO, he just flung votes where they would stick.
-Persivul NEVER explained reads until Day 4 lol. For example he was all over Tex day 1 and never laid out a case there. I made a quote wall of posts talking about my Shotty read.
-"can't analyze because he's scum" what the fuck?
-Anyone can fake an outburst

like damn come on

1) Too scummy to be scum is not the only reason to town read persivul. Also, "scummy" in this case basically means careless or uncontrolled behaviour which is most likely to come from town.

2) I've pointed out recently that you have been very reluctant from doing anything drastic. That's being quiet in my opinion.

3) No. Pushing people is town. He didn't push a lot of people but I agree with anen that his position on texcat was bad.

4) Not necessarily. I think he explained his short term town read on wgeurtz. He was never asked for an explanation till day 4 but he still gave analysis of the game.

5) Yes.

6) No.

-I didn't say it was. "Careless and uncontrolled" - what makes this more likely from town then scum?
-what is something "drastic"? The vote? That's the only thing I can think of
-He voted literally half the playerlist day 1. That's a lot of people. He had no focus in his pushes, he was just trying to get something to stick.
-If that's your definition of " analysis" then I've sure done a lot more then Persivul up to today.
-???
-???

[SirCakez]

At this point you're just conf biasing and looking for reasons to townread Persivul that aren't legitimate, like his "outburst" earlier. Nothing you're saying is a solid towntell and at worst some of the stuff you're using to townread him is scummy (pushing a lot of people Day 1). You need to go review his ISO and then come back.

[chilledtea]

Well cakez, town really has no reason to control their behaviour. Or at least, less reasons to control their behaviour.

I am not saying pers is obvtown. So telling me to check his ISO is silly because I've done it.

His interaction with shotty and your interaction with shotty makes me feel that you are the scum, not him.

His outburst was legitimate. I can't see scum explaining their situation the way he did. It was too accurate to be from scum.

Also, why are you defending yourself by comparing yourself to persivul? It has already been established that you and pers have played ridiculously similar to each other.

You however have been more careful, and he has not.

Tell me cakez, why weren't you NK'd night 1 for basically being conf town by starting the wagon on shotty? Scum are afraid of town that are confirmed - or very close to confirmed.

Alex was not a threat compared to you. No reason to think alex was PR any more than you.

[chilledtea]

Like, if we are talking of confirmation bias, then I am confirmation bias against persivul, not you cakez. Why?

Because I called a max/pers scum team on day 2 itself.

So it should be like a victory to me that I caught both scum on day 2. But that isn't how mafia works.

So yeah.

[chilledtea]

If pers is scum he was too stupid to kill you on night 1. He went for alex who town read him instead of going for someone who was widely town read - either you or anen.

You on the other hand - it is possible that you killed alex. PR hunting is the possible reason.

[Aneninen]

Okay, now I have an intent to hammer.

SirCakez's clearly had time to answer ChilledTea's posts. He could have summarized his case without quoting too.

Does anyone have anything to say?

[chilledtea]

I say let us give both of them time to see how they respond. If it isn't satisfactory, we hammer.

[Aneninen]

I say let us give both of them time to see how they respond. If it isn't satisfactory, we hammer.

That was our original plan, wasn't it?
I mean, after I've announced the intent, we'll wait for their response.

[SirCakez]

I want to make links and quotes to support my case on pers, not just a couple sentences. Chilled's thing could be answered without those.

[davesaz]

Official Vote Count

SirCakez

(2): Persivul, chilledtea

Persivul

(2): SirCakez, Aneninen

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-05-14 00:00:15)

[Persivul]

Since you asked for a summary and said cakez didn't need to use quotes and links, that's what I'll give - main points in narrative format. Just ask if you want more on any of these.

Cakez is scum because:

1. He has been read as town largely due to the shotty lynch on D1. We now know that was a bus. A D1 bus is only worthwhile to scum if they get good towncred for it. You only get towncred if you pushed the lynch. Cakez was the main driver of the shotty lynch. But, his push for that lynch is inexplicable, except as a bus. I say this because his case consisted of a weak point on the meaning of VI (which was soon forgotten), followed by

he's not scum hunting

and little or nothing else. Recall that I showed a series of posts in which he made several charges against me - more than he ever made against shotty. But, he followed that up with a nullish town read on me, but a strong scum read on shotty. This shows that the shotty push was contrived. He attempted to get towncred for it with statements like

Why can't I get this shotty wagon going

.

2. On D3, he voted kuroi early. Kuroi was soon at L-1 and stayed there for 4 hours before BW derphammered. Cakez was very active elsewhere on site in that 4 hours, yet he did not see fit to unvote or IIRC make other comment during that time.

3. As noticed recently, on D4 he realized that he potentially needed two more lynches. So, he cast shade at me, saying

He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself

. This makes no sense - if I'm scared as scum, I'm going to try for a town CW. If I go to shotty, as noted above I would have pushed for some towncred. BUT, much more important is the fact that scum!pers would have needed to plan on lynching 2/3 of {clumsy, anen, cakez} to win the game, and I gave full town reads to both anen and cakez. I plan out my scum games much better than that. IMO this point is pretty close to a smoking gun.

4. Today, cakez' behavior has been indicative of a scum mindset. He's more reactive than proactive. This was particularly evident regarding voting. He didn't vote me until questioned about it. Scum are motivated to hold their vote until L-1 in mylo/lylo so they can be sure of the hammer. He's playing his cards close to the vest, and trying to fake town slips, like referring to himself as paranoid twice in this phase, but not at all earlier. He's not being authentic. He's playing very cautiously, and that comes from a scum mindset.

[chilledtea]

Waiting for sir cakes patiently.

[SirCakez]

I'm going to respond to the posts on this page first, then will do the case.

[SirCakez]

Well cakez, town really has no reason to control their behaviour. Or at least, less reasons to control their behaviour.

I am not saying pers is obvtown. So telling me to check his ISO is silly because I've done it.

His interaction with shotty and your interaction with shotty makes me feel that you are the scum, not him.

His outburst was legitimate. I can't see scum explaining their situation the way he did. It was too accurate to be from scum.

Also, why are you defending yourself by comparing yourself to persivul? It has already been established that you and pers have played ridiculously similar to each other.

You however have been more careful, and he has not.

Tell me cakez, why weren't you NK'd night 1 for basically being conf town by starting the wagon on shotty? Scum are afraid of town that are confirmed - or very close to confirmed.

Alex was not a threat compared to you. No reason to think alex was PR any more than you.

-That's not true. If town starts flailing around and cursing out people then they cause chaos and are inviting themselves to be mislynched. So town definitely has motivation to keep controlled.
-It is basically what you are saying though. You haven't even considered him as scum for several days.
-His interactions with Shotty were very bad. Little to no interaction, then he developed a sudden scumread on Shotty just when he became the leading wagon.
-How is being accurate in an outburst exclusive to town? Scum can describe their own play and curse at people.
-I'm not? You're the one bringing up comparisons.
-How should I know the answer to that? Ask Persivul, he's the scum.

[SirCakez]

Like, if we are talking of confirmation bias, then I am confirmation bias against persivul, not you cakez. Why?

Because I called a max/pers scum team on day 2 itself.

So it should be like a victory to me that I caught both scum on day 2. But that isn't how mafia works.

So yeah.

*slaps*
You're confirmation biasing by looking at everything from the perspective of Persivul town, Cakez scum. Persivul posted some seriously scummy shit trying to rush the lynch and you basically ignored it. At the least Anen saw it for what it was.

[SirCakez]

If pers is scum he was too stupid to kill you on night 1. He went for alex who town read him instead of going for someone who was widely town read - either you or anen.

You on the other hand - it is possible that you killed alex. PR hunting is the possible reason.

Alex also townread me, this is irrelevant.
This is an example of your confirmation bias. Why couldn't Persivul have been PR hunting?

[Persivul]

Alex also townread me, this is irrelevant.

He town read you. He hard defended me. It would be crazy for scum!pers to NK Alex.

[SirCakez]

Dude, I fucking get it if you have emergencies with your pets or families or whatever but if you're not going to be able to play this game, you should replace out.

Only three people have more posts than me. A couple people with fewer posts probably have more real content, but still, I'm at least in the middle of the pack as far as contribution goes. Check Masquerade's ISO and vote him if you want to charge someone with not playing the game.

p-edit: take your head out of your ass and put your vote somewhere useful.

This is bad, now this is the "why me fry my tell" I thought I saw with Clumsy earlier. Also the whole "I wouldn't do this as scum is" not correct as he does this as scum. I'll get some games as evidence.

What games was he scum and played like this? The meta might change my read.

I'll read through, and I might just go hunting through some of his other games and I'll give it some thought.

He hard defended you for all of two posts sure, but then he said this.
Showing he was clearly open to changing his read on you

[chilledtea]

Like, if we are talking of confirmation bias, then I am confirmation bias against persivul, not you cakez. Why?

Because I called a max/pers scum team on day 2 itself.

So it should be like a victory to me that I caught both scum on day 2. But that isn't how mafia works.

So yeah.

*slaps*
You're confirmation biasing by looking at everything from the perspective of Persivul town, Cakez scum. Persivul posted some seriously scummy shit trying to rush the lynch and you basically ignored it. At the least Anen saw it for what it was.

No?

Okay so listen up. Do you know why I was unsure of anen? It was because I was getting town vibes from persivul. Before I considered your case I decided to consider my townread's case just to be sure.

After I went through anen, I realized certain things which made my town read on him stronger.

So it came down to you vs persivul which I felt because of the evidence persivul is scum.

However upon reflection there were many things I did miss, some of which were pointed by persivul so this is not at all confirmation bias.

I maybe wrong but it isn't confirmation bias, that is for sure.

Also, scummy =/= scum.

I've considered both of your cases. So not confirmation bias either.