kuribo in Wonderland - [Game Over]

[G[o]dz]

I think Brian Skies is more likely town than not. I liked the way he engaged with Nacho. It is not a read I would bet money on, but I think the arguments about him being scum/scummy because of who he wants/wanted elected as king are pretty turd.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936022 time=1463861823 user_id=15399 post_num=465]It's a subconscious thing. Scum players in general try to make as few perceived enemies as they can. Especially if he's not a particularly strong scum player in the first place, he'd want to not make enemies of players who are likely to get their way if they sense bullshit.

I don't think that this response meshes very well with your suspicion on Antihero for having more scum reads than town reads.

dz post_id=7936022 time=1463861823 user_id=15399 post_num=465]That's bullshit. There's no reason you cannot talk about reads - that doesn't lead to anything more than it does in a regular game unless you're acting on reads that you aren't very confident about, in which case that's your own fault for being inept. Talking about your reads isn't the same as acting on them and electing a king based on something not very strong...

I realized that my assumption here was probably wrong when I was rereading Antihero's earlier posts, hence asking him why he was holding back on reads earlier.

dz post_id=7936022 time=1463861823 user_id=15399 post_num=465]Up to the point where he said "policy execution", do you think it makes sense for him, scum-reading me, to say that after not mentioning anything related to a scum read on me if he was scum reading me?

As I've said before, the reason that he was scum reading you very likely has to do with 275.
Why would him explicitly stating why he thought you were scum make him later saying that he wanted a policy execute on you any better?

[SirCakez]

Cakez in case it wasn't clear I'd like to know why you think Brian Skies is obvtown

I answered this earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936040 time=1463862234 user_id=15399 post_num=469]I doubt talking to me about my read on Antihero is going to make me change my mind when he continues to avoid doing anything I want him to do, just FYI.

Another reason I don't like him backing off when he did is that it gives him this smokescreen to hide behind because, unless someone else demands it, he can pretend he's ignoring me for "toxicity" reasons or something like that.

I think that as scum, he wouldn't shy away from addressing you since he could pad his push with a genuine dislike of you. I also think the way that Antihero addresses the game as a whole is more alignment-indicative than how he addresses you; even if he is scum and even if this is a strategy to avoid you specifically, he will still have to engage with those who have a more proven track record of reading him, and he will still have to fake scum hunting other places.

[Nachomamma8]

Godz vs Anti does not look like TvT at all Nacho.

Why do you say that?

[Antihero]

Antihero, why did you hold off on elaborating on the back pocket reads earlier? I understand that you were trying to gauge whether there were good reads or not, but am not sure why that step in particular was necessary when expressing them most likely would have helped to strengthen the read and when expressing them didn't take away your ability to go back on them later.

people act differently once they know they're being watched/suspected (some of it damaging).
also i acknowledge not every thought that crosses my head needs to see the light of day. some secret reads don't mature. for example, one of the secret scumreads at the time was sircakez (negging on axel in Post 179 pinged) but it's since not panned out and kind of faded.

sometimes it's better to put a sock in it.

[kuribo]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.

I want to know WHY he's willing to jump through those hoops to make someone else electable

[SirCakez]

Godz vs Anti does not look like TvT at all Nacho.

Why do you say that?

Because of the way they're attacking each other so much. And I have a pretty strong scumread on Godz and townread on Anti.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936047 time=1463862463 user_id=15399 post_num=472]Nachomamma8,

If you want me to see Antihero is town, then ask him these questions and see if he answers:

Where did your scum read on Godz come from? Could you go into detail about this?
Why are you claiming the zakk read is "meta-based" if you didn't have enough of a grasp of zakk's meta that you needed to ask a question about how he always acts?

If the questions are coming from someone else and he still chooses to avoid them, then he's doing what he says is bad for the game state to prove some point.

My intention is not to be your messenger; if, during our conversation, you bring up a point that I think is legitimate or I feel I can't properly answer, I'll ask him about it.

[kuribo]

Like what does it matter to Nacho if Godz is electable

How does that necessarily help town / a town wincon

Why Godz specifically?

[Spiffeh]

Cakez in case it wasn't clear I'd like to know why you think Brian Skies is obvtown

I answered this earlier.

Quote it please

[G[o]dz]

I don't think that this response meshes very well with your suspicion on Antihero for having more scum reads than town reads.

You're conflating two different things, so I don't really understand your point here. He claims he has more scum reads (or people he's suspicious of) than he's talking about, which means he has a quite-large list of players he's suspicious of in comparison to players he's not, and I don't think this is normal (especially this early in day one). I also think he's not talking about them because, either he was bullshitting (he doesn't want to have to throw out names and find a potential excuse later for them) or he doesn't want to make enemies of players who are likely to push him if they don't like what they see.

Why would him explicitly stating why he thought you were scum make him later saying that he wanted a policy execute on you any better?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[SirCakez]

His level of engagement. In Assassin's Creed 4 he was nothing like this as scum.

[Spiffeh]

I reject that explanation.

[SirCakez]

That's unfortunate.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.

It's not my intention to elect him in the near future, but I think that he's transparently town and I think that it will be extremely important in the late-game to elect kings who are town. This is not the main reason for me doing this.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.

I want to know WHY he's willing to jump through those hoops to make someone else electable

I think that jumping through hoops to understand where people are coming from makes the game state better as a whole. I feel like the game is more fun when you don't believe like you're being ignored.

[Antihero]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.

It's not my intention to elect him in the near future, but I think that he's transparently town and I think that it will be extremely important in the late-game to elect kings who are town. This is not the main reason for me doing this.

i.e. if he's town he's never going to get nightkilled

there, nacho was too nice to say it so i will

[kuribo]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.

I want to know WHY he's willing to jump through those hoops to make someone else electable

I think that jumping through hoops to understand where people are coming from makes the game state better as a whole. I feel like the game is more fun when you don't believe like you're being ignored.

That's not what you said though, you didn't say you were jumping through hoops to make him understood, you said you wanted him to be electable.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho what are you trying to accomplish with this conversation?

I think that Godz is town, and I think that Antihero is town.

I think that the chances of Godz changing his mind on Antihero without someone who is actually trying to talk to him about his points is heavily unlikely.

I think that changing his mind here is a productive thing to focus on because changing his mind on that read will make him a more electable King whether for now or in the future and because I think that he's an aggressive enough player where him focusing elsewhere would be good for town. I also think that Antihero can get annoyed with that sort of thing as town and feel that he's less likely to play well when someone's railing against him in the way that Godz is.

[Nachomamma8]

Spiffeh asked what I was trying to accomplish. That was my answer.
You asked why I was jumping through so many hoops in order to accomplish that, which got a different answer because it was a different question.

[kuribo]

That's not the part of the quote I'm questioning


The line directly after, "make him a more electable King" implies that you have a vested interest in making him king

You say it's because he's "transparently town," but I don't see it that way. Town? Maaaaaybe but not "transparently" so

So are you trying to convince him to back off Anti? Or trying to convince the rest of us Godz is town and make him "a more electable King?"

[kuribo]

Spiffeh asked what I was trying to accomplish. That was my answer.
You asked why I was jumping through so many hoops in order to accomplish that, which got a different answer because it was a different question.

Right but they don't exist in a vacuum and both questions are useful in figuring out what you're trying to accomplish by interjecting into what could have become a nasty shit storm

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486]

Why would him explicitly stating why he thought you were scum make him later saying that he wanted a policy execute on you any better?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

OK, never mind, I reread this enough times to understand it.

The point is that I doubt he'd use that choice of words in the first place with a scum read on me, given what had taken place in the game at the time. And the point is that if he were scum-reading me, he would have stated so (possibly instead of) saying "policy execute", which has connotations of not caring about the person's alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

The line directly after, "make him a more electable King" implies that you have a vested interest in making him king

In making him a potential king. The more people town has that are electable, the greater the town's chances of winning; town needs to produce more competent kings than the scum can kill. Do you disagree with this?

You say it's because he's "transparently town," but I don't see it that way. Town? Maaaaaybe but not "transparently" so

He's a very strong townread of mine but he's not a player I see the scum killing off early.

So are you trying to convince him to back off Anti? Or trying to convince the rest of us Godz is town and make him "a more electable King?"

Making Godz a more electable King is less about convincing the rest of you that Godz is town and more about increasing the chances of hitting scum if elected; I wouldn't have called him transparently town if I didn't expect that he would be a universal townread when it mattered.

I think that my involvement in this argument will increase the chances he backs off Anti and will make him a better potential King; both of these things are inextricably linked.