Open 640: Diffusion of Power - Mod Abandoned

[MURDERCAT]

Sorry for the absence guys should have gone VLA, catching up soon and I'm around all day tomorrow.

[Sickofit1138]

loking forward to talking with you. i want do discuss reads and such.

[texcat]

Texcat im not gonna vote you right now, but is it possible for you to talk to me if im not voting you? i want to establish my read on you

LOL. It's possible even if you are voting me. Did I miss a question from you somewhere?

[Ranger]

Docs: I believe Docs should never claim in this setup, even after they have completed their night of activity.

Not quite.

If there's a night with no kills, a doctor for that night should claim their protection target. Obviously, there would be the slight risk scum chose to no-kill and hope they got saved, "clearing" scum, but we'd cross that bridge if we came to it, and they'd have to have some massive guts in order to pull this off: sheer probability would dictate a protection would be on town, and every night they choose not to nightkill is a chance for an extra day (via a legitimate doc save later), not to mention, every time they choose not to off a player, they're letting a cop (who could investigate them) live. Ergo, most likely, if a doctor protects someone and there's no kill that night, the person they protected is PROBABLY town.

Ranger, read that post again! Doesn't it sound like he's afraid of you?

I'm not arrogant enough to assume any player (even scum ones) are afraid of me until I'm already a corpse. (Or I have a role stopping them from killing me.) I do think GreyICE's discredit of me was strategic though!

As for 249,

Does that make Robert town? Nah. Parking a vote on a buddy like that is super weak. They don't get lynched from pressure votes. If they do get lynched they're free town cred. Distancing. Or just going after weak town.

This is talking about a town player.

Who is town? Percy. Man sucks at lynching me for lousy made up shit, but that's his ego. In his rare better moments he realizes his "case" is really, really dumb and pokes to look elsewhere. If I just bowed down and kowtowed like he wants he'd do something useful. Sadly I'm not playing that game so he's replacing out rather than admit he's wrong. As scum he'd have too much pride. Wouldn't replace out because he botched on getting a townie lynched.
Shotty is town. Unlike he's like scum with oercy, but nah. Too damn honest. Sotty scum is not hard. No panic, no fear.

These are talking about town players.

Texcat? Town. Easy. Freebee.
Aninen? Like to say town. Probably. Natural.
Kappy.., so many oosts, so many one liners. Ranger vote is trash. If he's scum Ranger is town 110%.
Shadow is Def town.

These are not talking about all town players. GreyICE has at least one scumbuddy in here, and maybe both.

Can't we lynch ChipButty Today?

Considering a lot of your case on him relies on GreyICE/Psyche being scum?

No.

By the way, if people really want me to address why Sickofit's page 13 posting is scum, I will, but...it's really, really obviously scum. Like, stronger than GreyICE, scum. (The Psyche wagon is just larger.) If we're not lynching Psyche today, we're lynching Sickofit. No other lynches today are acceptable, and no claims they make should let them off the hook. Mkay?

[SirCakez]

Sickofit/Karnos are acceptable lynches. I still think the Grey/Psyche slot is town.

[Ranger]

If we're not lynching Psyche today, we're lynching Sickofit. No other lynches today are acceptable, and no claims they make should let them off the hook. Mkay?

I am dead serious about this, by the way.

I'm flat-out delivering an ultimatum here: sheep me or face my fury and wrath on future days. In particular, this is to SirCakez who voted karnos, but also applies to karnos, shotty, Chip Butty, and Murdercat. (texcat I'm beginning to think

could

be scum, and definitely is if I'm wrong on any of {Aneninen, GreyICE, Sickofit}, most likely Aneninen.)

I don't get reads this good that often.

But I am absolutely

DEMANDING

to be sheeped. Not asking. Demanding. Choose one of {GreyICE, Sickofit} to lynch. We're not touching anyone else today. You can prod, you can poke around, you can ask questions, you can push, go ahead and do all of this and more for names outside of them, sure, that's your prerogative. But as for the actual LYNCH, we're sheeping me today, period, end of story. Don't like it? Either cop me or kill me.

[Ranger]

{Persivul, karnos, Chip Butty, Murdercat, Robert E Me}
{drmyshottyizsik, SirCakez}
{Shadow_step}
{texcat}
{Aneninen}
{Sickofit, Psyche}
Updated reads.

[karnos]

Umm the fact that you lied....as town? In my experience lying is not a town tool to catch scum. It's a scum tool. I feel like you coming out with it was to act like you weren't scared but it came across as very fake.

Alright. I repeat myself, but I didn't actually lie. What I said is I *might* lie. Here is the exact quote: "

if I think you are scum and I want to see if you do more scummy stuff, I might even lie to you in the thread

" Note the words

if

and

might

, I wasn't saying that I had lied, and I wasn't even saying I will lie. Depending on how the game goes it might not be a useful tool, as it happens I may never have a reason to post a lie.

I said then, and still feel the same today, is that there are certainly times where lying as town is a great thing to do. Basically I could see exactly where GreyICE's argument was going, and rather than let it drag out and bog down the whole thread, I thought I could just save everyone some time by refuting his final point, which seemed to be that a lying player is a scum player. (That idea certainly didn't work out, but that is beside the point.)

Let me ask you two very important questions.

1:Do you believe that any player who lies in the thread is clearly scum?

2:Do you believe I knowingly lied in the thread?

Please answer carefully, I may hold you to your answers.

[karnos]

I will vote Sickofit1138 once I have a chance to do a vote count to confirm I am not accidentally hammering him.

[This is my username]

VOTALS:

Psyche: 3 (Persivul, Robert E Me, Ranger)
Chip Butty: 2 (MURDERCAT, Aneninen)
Robert E Me: 2 (texcat, karnos)
Sickofit1138: 2 (Shadow_step, Chip Butty)
karnos: 2 (Sickofit1138, SirCakez)
texcat: 1 (Psyche)
Not Voting: 1 (drmyshottyizsik)

Kop replaces Robert E Me. Persivul is prodded, it is his first prod.

[drmyshottyizsik]

VOTE: Psyche

[Ranger]

Yo, Kop.

Good to have you in this game.

The quick news here is: I'm town this time. If you have any doubt whatsoever, cop me.
We are lynching one of {Psyche, Sickofit} today. Aneninen is currently my top pick for the third, but texcat is not far behind. You're free to read the game, but know this is happening regardless of whether you do or don't.

[Chip Butty]

nope this is what it would look like.

In post 278, Sickofit1138 wrote:
1. Karnos
2. Chip Buddy
3. Texcat
4. Ranger
5. Robert
6. GreyICE
7. Shadow Step
8. Shotty
10. Murdercat
11 Percivul
11. Aneminen
12. SirCakes
13. Myself

@Ranger and Chip Buddy
I get that my predecessor made things a bit more difficult for me... But I hope to change your minds. I assure you... My win condition is town.



So a general meta gives a lurkish town!Ranger. I am moving Ranger to a null slight scum.

This contains a blatant inconsistency: You list me as your second-most scummy player (and, in a game with three scum, that means you think I am scum), then you say you hope to change my mind about your alignment. If I was scum, I would KNOW your alignment, so this slip indicates to me that you don't really think I am scummy at all, which means that you just listed me second-most scummy as a precursor to trying to mislynch me. You posted comments on several players and none on me, which you would have done if your assessment of me had changed so radically in such a short space of time.

Same with Ranger, though less glaringly so: She was fourth most scummy on your list, and you since moved her to "null slight scum". But, again, scum would KNOW your alignment, so why do you hope to change her mind? Looks like you know she isn't scum.

Doesn't add up, and given that you are in Kappy's slot, which I have been suspicious of, and that my Robert vote has gone up in smoke: VOTE: SICK

Lol, please. Mafia need to 'change their mind' with the game as well. i for one, am almost never convinced 100% that someone is cum

On day one

but yknow thats just me.

and btw you dont need to come up with poor excuses to hop onto several different wagons, it makes it even more suspicios.

Lol, please. Mafia need to 'change their mind' with the game as well.

Wait...<pauses to massage his own temples for a moment>...Are you...are you saying you think I am scum (and therefore KNOW your alignment), but you hope to get me to "change my mind" about you - i.e.

pretend

to change my mind about you? Because that doesn't make sense.

If not this, then what ARE you saying?

Im saying that if i get the town to read me as town, maf will likely follow suit. Not that complicated.

Uh uh uh, not so fast. You addressed your statement in #312 specifically to Ranger and me. You said you hoped to change our minds (so that we would consider you Town). But you also listed us among your scum picks. Now you say you meant "if i get the town to read me as town, maf will likely follow suit", which is...uh...different to what you said before. Can you stop squirming on the hook long enough to explain that clearly?

[karnos]

Thanks for the vote count.

VOTE: Sickofit1138

Still would love to see him answer my above questions.


And to respond...

This is kind of weird because it is very unclear what the "Same reasons as above" refers to, since neither karnos nor anyone else had recently voted GreyICE at that point.

@karnos: What reasons were you referring to here?

Also, I'm really not buying the whole "GreyICE was setting a trap" line - if he was, why no ga at all in the timestamps between #47 and #48? If you set a trap, you need to wait a whiles for your prey to fall into it, not spring it right away.

Also, I don't like karnos' "obviously I am a little biased" comment. Since when does someone voting you automatically make them scummy? Betrays OMGUS-y thinking even as he attempts to pre-empt accusations of OMGUS.

"reasons as above" was referring to Persivul and Aneninen's cases against GreyICE at the time. Perhaps my choice of terminology was bad, I think of "above" as anything above in the thread, I didn't mean the posts immediately prior.

As a newbie, I found myself sometimes responding to a post before reading the entire thread. I could see a newbie falling for his trap in #47 and posting his role before reading #48. And hell, even #48 is flat-out wrong as well, as it says "we know the setup", when it should say "scum knows the setup", all in all a newbie could be confused and think that the winning strategy is to claim roles. I'm glad it didn't happen, but the attempt sure looks scummy to me. And why make post #48 at all? Because if he didn't, it would be scummy as hell, and instead of arguing about how scummy it is we would have just lynched him by now.

re: OMGUS, what exactly are you complaining about? By admitting my bias, I was hoping to head-off anyone from trying to accusing me of ignoring the vote GreyICE had on me. I guess I can't win.

[Chip Butty]

Docs: I believe Docs should never claim in this setup, even after they have completed their night of activity.

Not quite.

If there's a night with no kills, a doctor for that night should claim their protection target. Obviously, there would be the slight risk scum chose to no-kill and hope they got saved, "clearing" scum, but we'd cross that bridge if we came to it, and they'd have to have some massive guts in order to pull this off: sheer probability would dictate a protection would be on town, and every night they choose not to nightkill is a chance for an extra day (via a legitimate doc save later), not to mention, every time they choose not to off a player, they're letting a cop (who could investigate them) live. Ergo, most likely, if a doctor protects someone and there's no kill that night, the person they protected is PROBABLY town.

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. The other exception I thought of is "extreme duress": at L -1 and under intent to hammer - best to claim rather than get lynched.

[Chip Butty]

{Persivul, karnos, Chip Butty, Murdercat, Robert E Me}
{drmyshottyizsik, SirCakez}
{Shadow_step}
{texcat}
{Aneninen}
{Sickofit, Psyche}
Updated reads.

I'm in broad agreement but why Robert/Kop on the first tier? I get that his absence looks innocent now, but the first tier? Wouldn't somewhere in the lower-middle be more appropriate, given that his two posts were a naked RVS vote and a slightly spurious almost-naked vote?

[Chip Butty]

As a newbie, I found myself sometimes responding to a post before reading the entire thread. I could see a newbie falling for his trap in #47 and posting his role before reading #48. And hell, even #48 is flat-out wrong as well, as it says "we know the setup", when it should say "scum knows the setup", all in all a newbie could be confused and think that the winning strategy is to claim roles. I'm glad it didn't happen, but the attempt sure looks scummy to me. And why make post #48 at all? Because if he didn't, it would be scummy as hell, and instead of arguing about how scummy it is we would have just lynched him by now.

Do you see texcat as being implicated on account of her #49, which enabled #50?

[Ranger]

I'm in broad agreement but why Robert/Kop on the first tier? I get that his absence looks innocent now, but the first tier? Wouldn't somewhere in the lower-middle be more appropriate, given that his two posts were a naked RVS vote and a slightly spurious almost-naked vote?

I saw the town motivation behind those posts. I would have preferred there be more, and I would have preferred he handle them differently, but the posts he made were more town than scum. When combined with my dislike for the wagon on him, and how my scumreads have interacted with him (all of my scumreads have interacted with him in a way that suggests "not scumbuddy"), he just feels

right

as being town.

[karnos]

Nope. I see #49 as a helpful note about what the real rules of the setup are, and I think it makes GreyICE look bad more than it helps give him an excuse to correct himself.

I don't see a scum motivation behind the post.

[karnos]

Just for the hell of it, trying my hand at a reads list. I find myself reading a lot like ranger, but I don't give absent players the benefit of the doubt much, so anyone who hasn't posted recently is 1-2 tiers lower than they could be if they were more active (this is especially true for kop, Shadow_step, and Persivul). Of course I will quickly adjust my opinion of them once they start posting more often.

town:

karnos

townish:

ranger, texcat, aneninen

nullish:

Persivul, drmyshottyizsik, Chip Butty

scumish:

Psyche, kop, Shadow_step, SirCakez, Murdercat

scum:

Sickofit1138

Caveat being, I don't have a lot of faith in any of these reads on day 1, the only player I know for sure is myself.

[Persivul]

I'm not going to respond to Grey anymore, hopefully that puts an end to the garbage posts. The first game I read on this site was one you were in, so I was curious to see how you would play in a game I am actually participating in.

Which game?

And for the record, when I read the post in question I had to double-check the site rules, because I felt like his attacks might be crossing a line, but ultimately I decided it wasn't worth reporting.

He crossed the line, and I reported it.

[Persivul]

VOTE: ROBERT

I think we need to light a fire under this guy's ass to get him to play. Also, he looks scummy on account of minimal posting and aforementioned lame leap onto the GreyICE bw.

VOTE: ROBERT

I think we need to light a fire under this guy's ass to get him to play. Also, he looks scummy on account of minimal posting and aforementioned lame leap onto the GreyICE bw.

I actually agree. Not switching votes just yet, but he is clearly my second choice for voting right now.

VOTE: Robert

I get this reasoning from the newbies, but texcat? That vote is terrible.

[Persivul]

@SC: Nothing wrong with asking. I just wanted to know why.

Now this is probably wifom and unfair on the guy who replaced Kappy.
But from my experience, I can say that players who replace out of games by their own wish are 90% of the times scum.

That slot just went highest in my scum hit list.

Did you have an actual scumread on Kappy before though?

VOTE: ROBERT

I think we need to light a fire under this guy's ass to get him to play. Also, he looks scummy on account of minimal posting and aforementioned lame leap onto the GreyICE bw.

Yeah since Kappy replaced out I'll help with this until hisbslot provides new content

VOTE: Robert

WTF, cakez too?

[Sickofit1138]

Texcat im not gonna vote you right now, but is it possible for you to talk to me if im not voting you? i want to establish my read on you

LOL. It's possible even if you are voting me. Did I miss a question from you somewhere?

Apparently you didn't get the sarcasm.
What are your reads so far?

[Persivul]

As I understand it, scum often tries to glide through under the radar by posting minimally. That minimizes the chance of them making a slip, and limits the number of associations with other players, making them harder to read.

I'm not committed to lynching the guy by a long shot, but I am hoping we can get some votes on him and compel him to play the game more.

If he looks scummy we can go ahead and lynch; if he looks Town, we can back off. We have oodles of time to do it - Days last two weeks, remember.

See, this is the thing. Votes don't compel a person to do anything when they're not going to lead to a lynch, and even without people saying outright they're not going to lynch him, people with a couple posts just don't get lynched D1.