Mini 1800 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?

I know this question isn't for me, but I feel that if karnos is scum, he has done a good job avoiding implicating his scum partner. I have no idea who it might be.

Garcia'ing bad. Trying to get a read so I can look back at a certain spot I found odd.
When I @Name someone I want them to answer.

[MathBlade]

@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?

I have the entire nightphase to figure such things out and so really don't want to waste time with preflip associatives, but if I absolutely had to pick someone, I'd go with either Kappy or maybe Dierfire.

Also, I find it really strange that karnos has been going "you're scummy and terrible and we should lynch you for all these blatant contradictions" and such, and then as soon as MathBlade shows up and starts 1) voting for him and 2) not looking super town, karnos suddenly hypertownreads me with a flimsy mason explanation and then tries to get me to jump onto MathBlade. Not really seeing the read progression there.

I just chalked it down to Karnos being scum and trying to get a lynch where he can. I FoS Wingback and Masquerade and then they both vote me while maintaining Karnos is town which IMO is stupid. Thanks for answering the question. Gotta go back and find a certain post that rubs me wrong just a sec.

[MathBlade]

Chumba, I'm confused. What is the difference between stating your opinion about something people don't like to explain why you don't think it is scummy and defending them?

This post here feels wrong during your Chumba reaction test. I was wondering if you noticed it to. I don't know how to explain why but it feels like eww...Like a wishy washy soft question. I was wanting to see if that was on your radar during the reaction test. It was something I caught during my reread.

[karnos]

Also, I find it really strange that karnos has been going "you're scummy and terrible and we should lynch you for all these blatant contradictions" and such, and then as soon as MathBlade shows up and starts 1) voting for him and 2) not looking super town, karnos suddenly hypertownreads me with a flimsy mason explanation and then tries to get me to jump onto MathBlade. Not really seeing the read progression there.

You see that there are a bunch of people that seem to be buddying me, ignoring my "contradictory BS" and pushing my wagons. Their goal seems to be to get you lynched, and since (assuming you're town) you know you're town, this would be a mislynch.
Why would you ever assume "they're masons" and not "they're scum"?

PS: I'm not a mason.

I'm trying to understand how you think you are even making sense.

1- About an hour ago, you were complaining that I didn't assume you were scum.

2- And now you are complaining that the progression from thinking of you as scum to masons happened so fast.

So obviously you do realize I was originally working under the assumption you were scum. Your prior complaint is either a lie (which proves you are scum based on your own logic, lol) or you were deeply mistaken (it's not the first error you have made, either) which should be a warning call to anyone blindly sheeping your call to lynch me.

Now, you seem to be puzzled why I decided you are probably a mason. Let me enlighten you: while a scum team coordinating a blatant push on town is in the realm of possibility, it's very very unlikely because of the danger of making the buddying too obvious. Masons don't have the same worry. You and those who I would rather not name have been playing like you don't care about your buddying being noticed, so I have read you as a mason. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

In summary, you are either a very inconsistent lying player, or you make a lot of mistakes.

[karnos]

Wtf Karnos!

1) This is scum and needs to die.
2) Mecha may or may not be a mason I don't know but you sure as hell don't give any ideas to scum.
3) No matter what you claim I don't believe you and you're just making shit up to save your own ass.
4) Today has been OMGUS weekly. Scum are trying to start a counter wagon on me. Don't let them.
5) Karnos would not be a NK target because he is scummy as fuck.
6) "Actual town" This means Karnos thinks there is such a thing as "fake town".
7) I will post my arguments whenever I damn well please. I don't give a shit what day of the week it is. I play when I want and others play when they want. I want scum lynched today and you are not sneaking out of this.

You are just upset that you can't push over an easy miss-lynch before people have a chance to think things through. I wouldn't rush things too much if I were you: after I flip town, you will be next.

And yes, there is such thing as fake town. AKA scum, AKA you.

6- yes there is such a thing as fake town... it's AKA scum, aka YOU

[karnos]

@Mecha -- Assuming Karnos is scum, who do you think is scum with him?

I have the entire nightphase to figure such things out and so really don't want to waste time with preflip associatives

, but if I absolutely had to pick someone, I'd go with either Kappy or maybe Dierfire.

If I didn't think you were a mason, I'd say that sort of thinking comes from knowing how I flip already but you can't share reads based on me flipping town while you push for my lynch in the same breath.

[MechaGoomba]

Although, if I am actually wrong about MechaGoomba, I'd be voting him right back.

PS: I'm not a mason.

If I didn't think you were a mason [I'd say you were scum.]

Where's that vote, karnos? I'm waiting.
At this point, the only reason I can think of you're not voting me is that you think MathBlade is going to be an easier mislynch.

[karnos]

Denying you are a mason is the correct thing to do. It doesn't mean you aren't a mason.

[qubixes]

@Mecha: Seems about right.

The list of scummy things Karnos has said/done so far is just getting longer. Don't really have much to add to the discussion at the moment, except one thing that kind of bothers me.

Any town player still scumreading Karnos after this is knee-deep in confirmation bias and should re-think their views.

This just feels wrong to me, in a manipulative way. Let's be honest, your case of him being town is a couple of snippets that you think make him town. The counter case is a truckload of evidence to the contrary (even if Karnos tries to present it as a bunch of meta tells). So you're presenting a niche case and you're accusing others of conf-bias if others don't agree. Great! This tells me that either A) you're scum or B) you're town, but I can't trust you (in your reads).

@Karnos: Stop the mason stuff, it's not helping town (it never was).

[Masquerade]

Too tired for this rn.

Just one question: Karnos, you basically confirmed that my thoughts about the way you voted Pers was accurate. Now here's my question: Why did you call it a fake vote? Because I can completely understand you getting paranoid of a townread that you were townreading in another game and in that other game said person flips scum. It happens. However, paranoia is not fake.
This has been bugging me since yesterday and I'm to tired to think rn.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Get some sleep Masq you've earned it

[karnos]

Too tired for this rn.

Just one question: Karnos, you basically confirmed that my thoughts about the way you voted Pers was accurate. Now here's my question: Why did you call it a fake vote? Because I can completely understand you getting paranoid of a townread that you were townreading in another game and in that other game said person flips scum. It happens. However, paranoia is not fake.
This has been bugging me since yesterday and I'm to tired to think rn.

I wasn't voting because I thought he was scum, I was voting because I was afraid he might be scum.

Unlike MechaGoomba, I do vote players who I don't think are scum. In my very first newbie game, I voted killthestory and put him at L-1 with my entry into the game, because my thinking was it'll either get some good information out of him, or scum will hammer and we can nail the scum. Of course that was very immature thinking, scum are extremely unlikely to hammer like that, but the basic thinking is something I still hold onto in my play today.

This is also why I sometimes vote "hiding" or inactive players, even thought it's NAI, in this game and in others. Essentially it's the same reason: I am not voting them because I have reason to think they are scum, but I vote them because I fear if they are scum, I won't ever find out. A non-hammering vote is a useful tool that can be used on a player of any alignment. It's how I play, and even if it gets my lynched this game, I don't think I will change, because I find it useful more often than not.

[Wingback]

I think there's a good chance I was wrong on Karnos.

Unlike MechaGoomba, I do vote players who I don't think are scum. In my very first newbie game, I voted killthestory and put him at L-1 with my entry into the game, because my thinking was it'll either get some good information out of him, or scum will hammer and we can nail the scum.

Of course that was very immature thinking, scum are extremely unlikely to hammer like that

, but the basic thinking is something I still hold onto in my play today.

If this was the case, why were you worried I might hammer you?

More than that, I don't understand why you decided to openly say in thread that you thought Mechagoomba was a mason. There is no benefit to town at all for you to do this. On the other hand, there's a ridiculous amount of scum motivation to speculate about people's roles before being lynched to help your team find the PRs.

Claim now please. Consider this an intent to hammer although I'm going to hold off on hammering until everyone's caught up and ready to go.

[karnos]

The counter case is a truckload of evidence to the contrary (even if Karnos tries to present it as a bunch of meta tells).

Is it really?

I voted kappy in RVS, and decided to unvote because I expected to be afk for extended length of time, and several players jumped on me for my choice of words. That is my great crime.

Then there is your meta analysis, which is all BS. You pick and choose specific posts to prove what you want, while ignoring posts that prove your theory to be worthless.

For example:

My read on him is not so much a meta read, but importantly the meta does reinforces it. Here are the overall main problems I have with him:

1

He is being very careful. I don't find this true in his town games.

2

He is very conscious about how what he writes looks. Also didn't find many examples in the meta.

3

His reads list is long and basically a whole bunch of nothing/null. It reminds me very much of my own read lists when I was scum the first time (I also felt that I should give a list as scum to look townie).

I'm so tired of this meta crap, but when it's being used as a major part of the case against me I guess my only choice to show how it's bullshit, one piece at a time.

Spoiler:

1 is BS.
I was accused of the exact same crap, being too careful and "too town" in newbie 1700.

RE: karnos (from game 1700, my second newbie game, AS TOWN)

He townplugs unnecessarily in the questionnaire responses. He has somewhat of an appeaser mentality when responding to questions. The RVS logic could stem from a newer mindset, but almost seems like scum setting themselves up early to dismiss low-velocity pressure vote wagons. Out of near everything I've read on these two surprisingly productive last two pages, Karnos pings me the most, Ghost a bit. Nothing else in particular thus far.

2 is absolutely true, in all my games. How is this AI?

3 is this unusual? My main experience with read lists is ranger's ever-present lists, where the majority of reads fall in the middle with a few strong town/scum reads. I was not super confident in any of my reads at the point where I wrote them out. I also find it annoying that I am attacked from both ends on this. You are complaining that my reads have to many null reads, while MechaGoomba complaints that I have more scum reads than the total number of scum in the game (even though I actually had 0 scum reads, only some null/scum reads). For the record, I don't think I posted any reads in either of my newbie games until day 2 or later. Posting full reads with reasoning is a new thing I decided to try this game, and TBH it didn't seem to have the payoffs I was hoping for. Maybe my reads will be taken more seriously after the flip.

Then, I uh... what exactly else did I do? Other than the meta complaints, many of which I have proven to be a lot of cherry-picking by offering counter examples, is there anything else? I'm trying to find out where these trucks full of evidence are hiding.

@Karnos: Stop the mason stuff, it's not helping town (it never was).

What do you mean "it never was"? Was someone else mason claiming earlier? I am fully aware that it's not pro-town to reveal a town power-role, but between that or lynching myself, I see it as the lesser of two evils. I'm not just going to ignore the obvious and go down without a fight.

[karnos]

Claim now please. Consider this an intent to hammer although I'm going to hold off on hammering until everyone's caught up and ready to go.

No. If you really want to hammer me now, that is on you. I already have my suspicions and it looks like getting lynched may even me inevitable, I'm fine with letting you quick-hammer me before I claim because it will make you look all the more guilty. Qubixes has already asked that my claim be ignored anyway.



To your question: my play has matured. I know that in the example I mentioned, basically just out of RVS, it's absurd to think scum will hammer. In the current state of this game, it's not completely absurd at all. There are enough players demanding my lynch that I think anyone could potentially get away with hammering me, as long as they can offer a little bit of reasonable doubt and show they they gave intent in some backwards way.

[karnos]

FYI to others: I will claim at L-1 with intent, that is not where I am. I'm not treating wingback's threat as intent because I am not currently at L-1.

[Wingback]

I am fully aware that it's not pro-town to reveal a town power-role, but

between that or lynching myself

, I see it as the lesser of two evils. I'm not just going to ignore the obvious and go down without a fight.

How is this an either/or scenario?

[Dierfire]

I'm still not entirely certain what's going on here, but I think that I know enough.

VOTE: karnos

THIS IS L-1 (AGAIN) FOR KARNOS

[Wingback]

This is frustrating. There are some three or four days left in the game. I'm not completely sure about you either way but I'm suspicious enough because of your mason speculation that I'm not going to derail your lynch. Claiming now would be really helpful as it would give us the time we need to analyze the claim and decide what to do with it. I don't see what you are waiting for here exactly - there is very little chance of anyone but you getting lynched so digging your feet in the ground and waiting for L-1 with intent reads more like you are stalling and want a deadline scramble.

Pedit: Was going to vote him but Dierfire already did so

now

it's L-1 with intent to hammer.

[karnos]

I am fully aware that it's not pro-town to reveal a town power-role, but

between that or lynching myself

, I see it as the lesser of two evils. I'm not just going to ignore the obvious and go down without a fight.

How is this an either/or scenario?

Well, if I suspect someone of being a mason and then lie and don't out him, I am obviously scum. So I *had* to out him. /sarcasm

I'm not seeing myself alive much longer. If not from a lynch, I'll probably be dead tonight. I get lynched without trying, that is on me. But if I do try my all and still get lynched... well then it's on MechaGoomba, and those sheeping him. And I think my best chance of survival is to come clean with what I suspected, dancing around the issue and pretending I didn't have a realization about mecha's role just made me look like I was hiding something- since I was. Look at the whole attack on me- a lot of posts are based around my reads of kappy or persivul changing without explanation, so there was no fucking way I was going to try to make up some BS reason for changing my view on Mecha, I had to get out with the true answer, even if it might hurt town a little. Lynching me will hurt town more.


I'm a flavor cop. "

neapolitan

" is the role name. Probably makes me a tempting target to kill, which is why I really didn't want to claim.

Asking in advance: if there is a jailkeeper or doctor, please think of me tonight if MechaGoomba doesn't lynch me first.

[MechaGoomba]

I'm a flavor cop.

By this, do you mean you determine the flavor of a player's role PM?

[Kappy]

I'm a flavor cop.

By this, do you mean you determine the flavor of a player's role PM?

A Neopoliton is a cop who determines whether someone is a vanilla townie or not.

[Kappy]

EBWODP: Neapolitan

[MechaGoomba]

I was hoping I could figure out whether or not Karnos knew that, since it looked like it might be an inconsistency. No chance of that now.

UNVOTE: karnos pending either counterclaim or lack of such.

[karnos]

Note: had to double check the rules, but I think it's fine to post this, paraphrasing.

When I investigate, I get a "vanilla" or "not vanilla" result.

My understanding is that a "vanilla" result guarantees the target is vanilla townie, there is no scum role that will give vanilla as a result, while a "not vanilla" result could be town power role or a scum.