Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)

[Thor665]

I confirm availability to receive a role PM

[Thor665]

I also totally had a panic attack of "wait, what role am I in this game?"
Glad coming to thread sorted that!

[Thor665]

I see a lot of careless scum rn.

Confirm

how can you see careless scum when nobody is scum yet?

Spoken like a true scum, trying to muddy the waters, clearly.

[Thor665]

Vote: Transcend

Choo-choo!

[Thor665]

VOTE: Luna Fox
Clearly you're trying to defend your scum buddy by ignoring the votes placed upon him.

That logic would make Transcend scum - so why aren't you voting the larger wagon?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Transcend
Vote: Karnos

Intentionally not answering the RQS.

[Thor665]

You're better at reading my own RQS than I am it seems :/

Do you mind elaborating a bit more? There are some other things I wanted to look into in Karnos's answers later but I thought it might be better to wait until more people answer so it doesn't bias answers if I point it out.

I don't scumread Karnos, I townread you.

Because I'm to lazy to mathz in order to find out how much majority is.

Io is also an acceptable lynch.

[Thor665]

So, Thor, the vote on Karnos was just RVS?

No - what part of 'I townread you' is confusing?
You are a townread.
You're voting Karnos.
Ergo, if I'm right about you, statistically by voting who you vote I'm more likely to target scum.

[Thor665]

I haven't made a random vote at any time in this game.
Nor will I.

[Thor665]

In this topic people question my vote because it's possible for town to vote town.
This is shocking news to me, and not information I am able to process.
I'm going to have a good long sit, and re-analyze the way I approach not just Mafia, but life as well.


I do mildly agree that Karnos' comment was a roundabout attack on me, I double down on it when he goes to the 'well, of the *active* posters' defense.
Yeah, pretty happy with this vote.

[Thor665]

@Thor At what post did you start townreading giga and why?

When he voted Karnos - because it was such a brilliant tryhard type early case, pinged as town.

I also townread Transcendence now - his Luna case is a laugh, but I townread him.

@Thor665: Please use VOTE: tags from now on or I won't count your vote.

Aw cradsticks - fine, I'll try my best.
I loathe the creation of that tag becoming a mod ruleset occasionally.
Is it the auto counter? Does it not pick up on Bold tags or something? Or do you just love the highlight?

[Thor665]

Laughter is the best medicine though.

[Thor665]

Karnos does look a little flaily to me, but he does appear to have a valid point that you're stretching in your value calls on his stated beliefs.

[Thor665]

also 64 and 119 in juxtaposition

HOLY SMURF THIS POST IS 20 LEVELS OF AWFUL

I liked that post, I don't see the scum energy in it in any way at all - what are you guys seeing?

The problem I have with Thor is his logic is inconsistent. He thinks his read is so good he can trust you as town after only a couple posts. Okay, maybe his read is so good, but if you accept that he is so good at reading people, then shouldn't he pick his own scum to vote, based on his amazing reads? Instead he chooses to sheep you. It's like he is saying he is so good at reading people that he is 100% convinced you are town, but at the same time he isn't confident enough in his reads to independently vote on his biggest scum read. It's a weird inconsistency to me.

This logic doesn't make any sense.
Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer.

Do you have a rejoinder?

[Thor665]

To get to the point, why was the reasoning for your vote, "Intentionally not answering the RQS," and not "I agree with her, that joke seemed forced," or something to that effect? By giving a different reason to vote, it seems as though you have something else to bring to the Karnos wagon that pertains to his RQS answers.

I did not do what you think I did - my "intentionally not answering RQS" comment was self-referential.
I was saying that I wasn't answering the RQS - I said this so that you would know I wasn't doing so on purpose, so you wouldn't need to waste time asking me if I missed the questions or something.

For everyone, this is more of a theory question about semi-nightless in general: Since there are more mislynches available to us than normal (we get 4 before LYLO rather than 3), does this give townies more, less, or the same amount of an incentive to be defensive in your opinion?

The same.
Town shouldn't try to get lynched, and town shouldn't go softly into that good night unless town is playing badly.

Karnos does look a little flaily to me, but he does appear to have a valid point that you're stretching in your value calls on his stated beliefs.

I don't understand what this is supposed to mean.
Mostly because I don't know what a value call is or can really find it on google.

Value call is offering your thoughts on the worth of a given item/thought/occurrence.
Replace it with 'opinion' and the meaning remains the same.

But I don't really see how his point is valid

Allow me to sum it up in your words;

which wouldn't even be a lie as it's just interpretation

So, basically, he *didn't* say something.
You then said he *did* say something.
He calls it a lie.
You call it an "interpretation".

Okay, so if he didn't say it - it's valid of him to take a stance against you - because you're apparently making up stuff about his beliefs.
Why is this confusing or surprising to you?

A defense from him wouldn't have even been that hard to make as all he would have needed to do was to explain how I was interrupting his intentions wrong.

Didn't he do that by saying that he *never said at all* what you were "interpreting" him as saying - which means you know he didn't say it, but kind of think he...implied it or something?

[Thor665]

I'm currently in the middle of an assessment - hit me up for thoughts after I'm done.

[Thor665]

But I'm still not making stuff up about him.
Sure, of course he didn't say that,

Well, that's a bad lead in if you're not making up stuff.

but the wording he used made it clear that he was trying to attack you

I agree with this.
The problem is you said this;

But that's not what I was saying. I was saying you were claiming to want him lynched and claiming to have never pushed for his lynched at the same time.

What he said you were lying about was *not* the first part, but rather the second part.

Okay, actually in arguing this, I'm back on your side now.
You are being flighty, but you're also being correct.

@Karnos - allow me to provide the evidence Io hasn't;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8120442
This is where you were distancing from the position of attacking me.
I no longer see a lie - unless it's from you.
Want to clarify?

@Giga - lean town on Io.

oh my god so many long posts that are literally ALL FILLER.

why can't any of you be concise?

He says in a filler post

Yeah still okay with roping Thor atm lol.

You didn't answer my question - is this an intentional dodge? If I don't have to keep asking it over and over it would be good to know.
Here it is again, in case you just missed it;
"What is it about Post 64 that reads as scummy to you?"
Question asked here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8123030
Post 64 here, in case you need to research it;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8120352

[Thor665]

I SAID NO MORE WALLS

Yeah, sorry, I forgot I only do those as scum, mah bad

[Thor665]

Yeah, guess I did, ya got me.

[Thor665]

Are you being serious right now, or are we still joking?

[Thor665]

Because if you're being serious, you're rude and bad at applying pressure.

[Thor665]

Lol you think I'm applying pressure.

I'm here to lynch you, not do some baby Smurf where I pressure you to get a read on you.

This isn't baby stuff - so you're advancing "walls" as a scumtell?
My bad, I'll reassess how I read your play.

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.

I would agree.
Especially since I never said anything like that.
What I *did* say was that in your theory world, maybe I didn't have a scumread yet - which is totally different.


Could you answer again now that you understand what I actually said?

That isn't me distancing from attacking you because I didn't attack you up to that point.

Yes you did.
I utterly agree with Io on that point, and it's kind of comical that you're arguing against that - even in your answer you're kind of half agreeing you're attacking me, just also attacking people who also hadn't posted yet.

Yes, I had noted your refusal to answer and it is the reason i asked the question, but that doesn't make the question an attack on you.

Streeeeeetch

[Thor665]

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.

I would agree.
Especially since I never said anything like that.

You are correct, you didn't say anything like that, I was just interpreting your post and reading between the lines, and taking into account the game state.

But now you seem to be pushing the idea that Io can interpret my posts, read details that were unsaid and you fully support her, while here you are arguing that your posts can only be taken literally.

It's a bit of a contradiction in your logic.

Well, first off - you're dodging.

Second off - my post wasn't actually open to your interpretation - because I explicitly stated what I meant, and you then ignored that and inserted a different concept.

Third off - you're actually ignoring that I kind of started on your side in that debate until I looked it over long enough to decide I agreed with Io's stance, so clearly my initial stance is you shouldn't really try to interpret much, and I think what she chose to interpret makes sense, and, as even you have said, it was an attack on me - your only disagreement is whether it was a directed attack on me - which means she's not interpreting much.

[Thor665]

1- Dodging what? You asked a question, I answered. I am not going to point by point respond to every line in your post, if there is one line in particular you really want me to answer, let me know and I will.

I asked a question - you inserted an answer that contained logic I had claimed the opposite of using - I clarified that for you and asked you the question again - you then defended your bad insertion without answering the question.

So to ask the question again;

Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer.

Do you have a rejoinder?

2- Your post was certainly open to interpretation. You said you only had a town read on giga. The question is WHY. At least 4 players had scum reads, and were voting on them outside of RVS AFAICT. You are apparently bad at hunting scum, otherwise you would at least be on par with those other 4 players. The fact you didn't have a scum read when several other players did seems to indicate that.

It was top of page 3 of the game - I had developed a town read, other people had developed scum reads; I don't see the evidence to suggest that makes me slow in developing reads, and even if I am slow in developing reads, I don't see how that makes me scummy.

3- You mean your fake change of heart, mid post? If you changed your mind before hitting submit, you know you can go back and edit the start of your post. I find that posting style to be weird, like you are trying too hard to show you are working from a town thought process. And it was an attack on giga, you, and every non-active player in the game, and players in prior games who skipped out on the questionnaire. Your very selective interpretation that it was only about you is plainly wrong.

Since I had other posts defending you, I didn't exactly *need* to show that I had been defending you, it was part of an ongoing conversation.
And, yes, i see you agreeing with me here about my understanding of your claimed beliefs.

Can you just explain to me what the scum motivation would be to "attack you" without using your name, without voting you, and while questioning a player other than you?

That is called attacking someone without voting them - which is a very common scum tactic to avoid VCA and to stay off town wagons.
Can you explain the town strategy of attacking someone while *not* being up front about it?

and the top of page 9 and THOR IS TOWN YHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS PRAISE THE aLL MIGHTY

I'm not the proud owner of a post at either the top of 9 nor the bottom of 8 - what changed your read on me from ranting about how I looked like I was pulling a scum maneuver to having me as a town read as I didn't have a post near there, and also don't think I've changed my style at any point this game?

Alright so i skimmed this game a bit at work. I'll answer queries when i get home. However most likely either I'm gonna sub out our kcda (sp?) is going to. I'm not gonna tolerate playing with someone with that obnoxious posting style.

If you opt to stay can you clarify for me whether you are intentionally dodging my question to you about how my Post 64 was scummy?
You've done it twice now - I'd love it if you'd say it was intentional so I could stop reminding you.
Or you could answer it, if you really are just missing the question.

I still don't get why Karnos is scum. Please don't lynch him when we're like only 2 days into it.

Do you not understand the case on him, or do you understand the case and disagree with it?

[Thor665]

So you find my reason to vote to be so weak that I must be scum?

[Thor665]

What do you think of KTS's vote on me for "posting walls" is that stronger or weaker than sheeping a townread's vote?

[Thor665]

I do scumread Karnos - I wouldn't still be sitting on him explaining how his stances don't make sense if I didn't give a hang about the slot.

[Thor665]

But the initial vote was *assuredly* deliberate sheeping, so if that's a scumtell to you - you better stick tight.

[Thor665]

Okay, so me placing a vote on Page 3 off slim reasoning, and then later having better reasons for voting it = scummy due to the way I got on the wagon.
KTS voting me for 'walls' but having 'deeper reasons' that he hasn't said yet = town, because the stated reason for getting on the wagon then doesn't matter.

You logic does not fill me with joy.

[Thor665]

Yet to see Thor comment on KTL...

There's nothing to comment on - he's intentionally playing to occlude his stances, and isn't actually participating in any meaningful way.

This was the response right here, you even quoted it, so I'm puzzled why you are acting like you aren't aware of it:

Because, as you admitted, you were answering it with stuff you were making up that I hadn't said.

>What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
See above. Other players had scum reads, you aren't an inferior player so you should have one as well.

Weren't you the one arguing that scuma nd town reads are functionally the same thing? So I have a read - they have a read.
Or are you arguing they're different things when it benefits you?

>Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read
Once your argument is using magic as an explanation, it's obviously just BS

You're the one stating that my belief in my reads has to be hyper to do what I did - I very clearly stated I was arguing from the perspective of the world you were claiming I was operating in.

You still haven't clarified why it's an issue beyond "I think you should have had a scumread at that point"
Am I wrong?

Okay, for the sake of argument assume you are correct, "attacking without voting" is something only scum do.

Why aren't you reading 75 as scummy? Io was attacking me with that post, but she didn't vote me.

Agreed - but Io didn't then deny that she was attacking you.
That's kind of a big difference.
You and I both know you were attacking me - I might be willing to buy that you were also attacking other people in addition to me, but your defense tack didn't really read as honest. If your reply had been something like ;Yeah, I'm attacking Thor, and also everyone who hasn't posted' though I still wouldn't understand the purpose to attack everyone who hadn't posted it would have felt more honest than going 'no I wasn't'.

[Thor665]

@thor: huh? what town opens like that thoo? his opening posts isn't all that scummy i admit but put into context with the rest of his posting I can not see him as not scum.

I can, he's basically extroverting bully and being really proud of his big brain - he's sort of like a much less impressive ABR or something and could easily be town who just is bad.
Compare/contrast with Karanos and how he's fielding questions, like, literally this sequence just happened;

Thor: question for Karanos.
Karanos: Misrep answer.
Thor: That's a misrep answer, here's clarification if you're confused, answer now?
Karanos: Defends the point of the misrep as some sort of weird 'teaching me a lesson' thing.
Thor: ...ooookay, so will you answer now?
Karanos: What'chu talkin' about? 'quotes the misrep answer' I already did!

If he is town, he is literally insane - we should lynch him.

[Thor665]

For the sake of understanding where I'm coming from, force yourself to temporarily read Karnos as town. 100% town. Then reread this whole thread (because argument took like 75% of the thread and I s2g I reread this thread at least like 3 times trying to see where you guys are coming from so at least read it once through for me) and try to tell me that it's impossible for him to come from town. I think you're all just stubborn and think that you're so committed and deep in the hole that if you abandoned that wagon, you guys would feel dumb. So I'll give you all the light at the end of the tunnel you're looking for...

You're not actually making much of a case there - functionally what you're saying is 'isn't it possible he's town and just presenting multiple bad arguments?' to which my reply is - yeah, that is assuredly possible.

But, it's also possible he is scum, and is presenting multiple bad arguments due to being caught out.

At that stage the only question is which theory do you believe more?
I believe the scum one more because the conversations are so wonky - reference my breakdown about him misrepping me and then citing it as a valid answer even though he admitted he misrepped me. Just roll that one around in your head.

Let's say you're Karanos and you're town.
You are asked a question.
You misunderstand what I'm asking, and answer it wrong.
I point this out and ask you to answer the question.
You agree that you misrepresented me.
I say 'golly, thanks, now will you answer the original question?'
You respond with 'I already answered it!'

How does that work for town? If you misrepresented me - then you know you didn't answer it, because you were answering off wrong info. So, yes, you *do* still need to answer it again. So how can he admit he was wrong in how he answered the question and also claim it was a valid answer? I don't see that coming from town - because it would require insanity. Ergo, i see him as scum.

Why do you see it coming from town?

[Thor665]

Can we get momentum this way? Karnos was in one of my newbie games so i have experience with him. He was town and his play this game is nearly replicated to last time. Plus pc's vote on karnos which is presumably rvs is very deliberately an attempt to build up his roping.

I see you citing the defensiveness - did he lack the logic also?
I have a game with him where he was town, and he had fine logic in that one.

@ Thor, what posts please. Specifically what posts. I'm pretty sure I'm misreading who's "You" and "I" in your post so I want it clear.

Here's the link filled breakdown.

Thor: question for Karanos.
Karanos: Misrep answer.
Thor: That's a misrep answer, here's clarification if you're confused, answer now?
Karanos: Defends the point of the misrep as some sort of weird 'teaching me a lesson' thing.
I cited him for dodging here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8124872
He asked, dodging what? here; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8124920 (these last two weren't in my original lineup, but are here for completeness)
Thor: ...ooookay, so will you answer now?
Karanos: What'chu talkin' about? 'quotes the misrep answer' I already did!

[Thor665]

Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.

Yeah...except I'm not saying that, and if you can see how he logically interpreted that I was saying that - I'll give you a cookie.

And let's even go on further - do you think it is legit, if he agrees that he misunderstood/misrepped me in his answer, that he doesn't need to actually answer the question because he already did a misunderstanding/misrep answer?

Like, even if I was to go along on the crazy train that is his was a reasonable misrep teaching point (and I don't) do you then think it justifies as an answer to my question about his logic?

[Thor665]

Transcend, in this game, who do you not have meta on?

I don't have meta on Transcend!

Oh, look, now that you have a Misunderstanding ANSWER you don't need an actual answer to that question, amirite?

[Thor665]

Thor did you read my 338?

I did - my response is in 340, and snarkily in 341.

[Thor665]

Why would you park your vote on a townread who is L-2 and has the potential to get LOLhammered?

Who do you expect to do the lol hammer?

[Thor665]

I'm not saying he

WOULD

get lolhammered i'm saying he

COULD

get lolhammered.

::Checks thread to see if he is in Road to Rome and forgot...::

Line 1- THATS THE WHOLE POINT. YOU think that it's illogical to interpret it that way. But then Karnos is trying to bring up how Io is doing the same thing to Karnos (This is shown in the quote below)

The difference being - Karnos agrees he was attacking me (sorta) he just also claims other attacks.
His lesson was derp terrible because he made up something while ignoring that I directly explained my answer as something else entirely.

Line 2/3 - But he did answer your question. (This is shown in the quote below)

So we're going with the answer; Thor is scummy for not having a scum read by Page 3?
Eh...if he wants to marry to that logic I guess he can.
It seems insane as a concept though.

The last line - The actual answer. "So no, It doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately." AKA he's saying that there's been so much information posted already, why do you only have a read on one person? Why wouldn't you have a scum read? And how do you even know that town read is scum reading anyone else accurately?

Okay, so let's break down his statement here - he claims many players have posted outside the RVS, so it's strange I don't have multiple reads.
Let's look at all the players who expressed reads before I did outside RVS.

KTS in #43 *might* be serious in voting Troubador for RQS.
Troubador in #47 assuredly gives a town read that is outside RVS.
Troubador in #49 assuredly gives a scumread.
Thor in #55 gives a town read.

So, the "many" is...what, two?
The possible reads are...three?
Let's even add on a player and add on a read on the presumption you think RVS ended sooner than the rather generous end I gave it. I'm assuredly amongst the first five players to offer even a single serious read in the game. I would suggest I'm in the first two to three.

That means that if I'm scummy for only having one read at that point.
Then Karnos is also scummy - because he hasn't expressed any reads.
While we're at it, everyon other than Troubador only seems to have one read at that point - so all of them are as exactly as scummy as me if Karnos thinks I'm scummy for what he's calling out.
Who else did he call scummy for this tell?
Checking...coming up with...none....zero...zip...

Does that make sense to you?
Do you think this is honest logic on his part?
Or can you agree with me he is spewing gak - because he is absolutely spewing BS and you are lapping it up right now like it makes sense.

Also even if he weren't teaching a lesson, his Line 2 makes sense to me. I don't get the logic at all on depending a townREAD's read on another person. You don't know for sure your READ is town so chooing to bandwagon that READ's read over your own personal read doesn't make sense.

It does if I don't have a scum read - which I openly said at the time.
I had a town read.
the town read had advanced a serious scum read.
I guess I could have just sat on an RVS and twaddled about - or I could, y'know, support a town read in RVS. I don't get the logic of doing anything other than what I did.

Transcend why are you pushing me about something that won't happen?

And temporarily unvote? I think karnos is town, this unvote is permanent unless my read on him changes
VOTE: Transcend for bad logic

If you're voting Transcend for lack of logic (and I could see that)
How can you be okay with Karnos, who is assuredly also lacking in logic? What makes the logic flaws better/worse between them?

[Thor665]

No Thor. You are scummy because the absurd contrast of you being 100% certain someone is town, but claiming to have no idea about who might be scum at all.

Where did I claim I was 100%?
If I was 50% does that change how much you're screeching about this?

Reads are relative. I'd understand if you said you had some faint scum reads and some faint town reads on page 3, and I'd be a bit surprised if you didn't have any strong reads by page 20. It would even make sense if you had no or only faint reads on page 5.

You weren't presenting town or scum reads at that stage - are you scummy?
Or is it okay if one has theory super light reads that one doesn't describe them.
Almost the entire game was not posting or in RVS at that point still - I was one of the very first to advacne a read and move out of RVS.
You are scum towing a line.

In contrast, having one 100% confirmed obv town read while not even having the faintest scum read on page 3 is way out of whack with everything that should be normal. At least, unless 1: you are scum, and you know your town read is town, or 2: you are scum, and your town read is your scum buddy. 1 makes a lot more sense, but either is possible.

If #1 is true I'd still be more likely to be voting scum
2 actually makes sense with the way I play, so it's your most cogent suggestion yet - but is specifically tied with how I, and I alone play - but at least it's a theory that isn't immediately laughable.

[Thor665]

Or are you now saying that you were putting out an explanation for your vote that was actually a lie?

In the post you're quoting I claimed it as answering within your framework - so a lie is assuredly a word you could apply to that, albeit an openly stated one.
I don't think you're actually this obtuse.
I've seen your town game - this isn't it.

[Thor665]

I've got this one.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66795

No crazy lie logic arguments.

What have you got with a lie logic argument?

[Thor665]

Heck, just link me to him taking a theoretical answer and taking it as gospel truth as town.
Any time.

[Thor665]

to me he's reading nearly identical to the noob town he played in his first game on the site (which was with me). i'm not in the mood to delve into examples.

First of all, I can only call out a scum for lying if I catch them lying. Doesn't mean it will happen every game.

Has it ever happened before to you as town?
I'll agree it doesn't happen every game - I'd love to see an example though, is this your magical first time ever?

In other words, you didn't even read through the game when you replaced in. You don't know me as well as you think you do.

Yeah, I only read through the multiple days and pages after I replaced - which included a lot of you.
So, besides reading a lot of you as town, i have no comprehension of you as town.

Why, is there something in those pages I didn't read that would change my view?
Name it, and I'll check it out.
Or just keep empty discrediting me - y'know, as town does...

I think the argument between Thor and Roske has been overblown way out of proportion, i dont even see them commenting on anything else that's going on and it's starting to worry me.

Name something you think I should have commented on that I haven't?

[Thor665]

Name something you think I should have commented on that I haven't?

I'm townreadingy you, I'm also townreading Karnos.
I pointed out someone who may be sitting on the sidelines watching a TvT and made an argument out of that.
But it completely went over your head.
I feel like you're so focused on your tunnel that you aren't paying attention to what other people are doing unless it's related to your debate with Karnos.

What sort of feedback would you have expected/liked for a value call of "this person isn't interacting as much as I'd like?"
Functionally you made the same call on two slots you claim are town - but are suggesting this other slot is scum because he's also doing what you're saying two of your town reads are doing?
None of that makes sense, and it wasn't particularly interesting either.
There is zero issue with me focusing on a slot I am convinced is scum - that's actually good play.
I'm still talking to other people about other things, but if 80% of what I say is advancing a scumread...that's good.

My no & no answer is probably unclear. No this isn't the first time, and no I can't give an example.

Second time ever?

[Thor665]

Nah.

[Thor665]

Am i the only person who noted Rosske contradicted himself?

I haven't seen any contradiction.

[Thor665]

@Thor, what are your thoughts on Io? Do these change if Karnos flips town? Flips scum?

I currently lean town. If Karnos flips scum I would consider Io strong town. If Karnos flips town I would consider Io lean town.

[Thor665]

semi v/la until late Saturday 23rd

[Thor665]

Town is constantly fighting town. This is getting stupid.

Townbloc: Luna, Transcend, Karnos, Kcda, Tenshii, Giga.

Town is fighting town too much.
I shall make a townbloc of town who are not fighting town.

@ Thor, who's Karnos's partner?

Not Io - that's all I've got.
Why, do you see any people who should be obviously ruled out or considered as more likely?

[Thor665]

List all the town fighting town?

[Thor665]

I find you both beautiful - one of you should put Karnos on L-1.

[Thor665]

@all: current thoughts on Luna? For the #1 volume poster she sure seems to be saying not very much interesting/helpful.

I find her nullish - I don't have an issue with the highest volume poster having less content offered than the average - that is actually pretty normal in my opinion, especially since about 25% of her posts are just complaints about how other people are presenting thoughts. Same thing with Transcend - doesn't suggest alignment, suggests playstyle. Ignoring it all.

[Thor665]

Extending semi-v/la through August 5th, will maintain as I have been, probably posting once a day, but might do occasional 24+ hour away spells.

That still makes me more active than some of you

[Thor665]

Tenshii, are you still scumreading Phantom? Walk me through your case if you are. I get the "well either we lose a VI or we get scum" but I'm really not seeing scum here.

Phantom, walk me through your scumread of Luna and me. Do you think we're scum together?

Hops on a bandwagon (Karnos) and justifies it with RVS. Eventually townreads (Karnos), his vote, but parks it anyway. Posted multiple times (aka multiple oppurtunities to unvote) without unvoting. Justifies it with not having a chance to reread through everything.

Town should be unvoting in this spot to decrease the chance of a townread getting lynched. I can't see any logical reason as to why town would act this way.

Iirc, any townread on him was justified with "He's acting so idiotic and/or scummy that he has to be town" which is garbage logic in and of itself. Which then leads to my logic of "Worst case scenario, lose VI. Best case scenario, flip scum." Getting rid of VI is better now than to keep VI into late game, especially when considering lylo.

What is the theory scum strategy in doing that - is his hope people don't notice? (too late) Don't question? (unlikely) Or accidentally derp hammer? (again, unlikely).

[Thor665]

I mean, I see evidence of sloppy play - can you translate it from sloppy to scummy?

[Thor665]

Jerk your chicken.

[Thor665]

Butter your buns.

[Thor665]

Eh, it's a fine Day 1 lynch for what it is - but I think people just have to be honest about the value of it as a tell.
I think a valid argument could be made for Karnos having sloppy play as well, and at least there's a vague framework of scum motivation to attach to it.

[Thor665]

I mean, I see evidence of sloppy play - can you translate it from sloppy to scummy?

Is what I said about him being scummy not reasonable? And do you think that what he did is towny? Assuming you're okay with his play, what actions would he have to do to convince you he's scum?

It might be reasonable, but it might not be - what I'm saying is that sloppy play...is NAI. I never sloppy play (or at least when I'm accussed of sloppy play, I massively disagree, and I've been accused as both alignments). But that's because my playstyle is non-sloppy - it's not like I get a scum PM and go 'awesome, time to play ridiculous!" and I don't think anyone else does either. Bad logic is a thing, just generic sloppy - that's playstyle.

I do not think what he did was towny.
I also don't think it was scummy.
I think it was sloppy. I said that already.

He would have to do actions that I could see scum wanting to do to advance their wincon.

I note that you didn't actually answer my question, was that intentional? If not - could you answer it now?

[Thor665]

vague framework of scum motivation to attach to it.

which is why it's an actually worthwhile lynch and i don't get why half of the town is reading karnos as town for no reason?

Welcome to half of the reads in the game

Well I think the reason is that reading quote walls is boring, ditto parsing mutual accusations of lying. Plus there's I think a natural tendency to read "they're fighting" as "probably t/t".

Parsing mutual accusations of lying is one of my absolute favorite scumhunting tools.

[Thor665]

1. My past game match with him parallels him right now, he's acting like noobtown.

2. The tone given in his posts appears genuine and consistent. No mood swings like other players.

3. His vote on Io seen as "reaching" is another reason I solidly townread him. While I don't think that he is voting mafia at the moment, I think that his vote was justified and the way he voted was towny. I just think it's wrong.

1. How do you differentiate newb town from newb scum?

2. Isn't it normal for people to have moods that change - if he really comes across as not having changing moods, that would suggest he's a robot or something, which is unnatural. Why does that suggest town and normalacy to you?

3. His vote might have been justified, but I will note that even in his strongest defense of his intended meaning that Io is "stretching" he *AGREES* that he was attacking me - he just wants to claim he was attacking some other people too. So, at that stage, what is scummy about Io's "stretch" exactly in Karnos' mind to justify attacking someone for pointing out something that was true?

[Thor665]

1. My past game match with him parallels him right now, he's acting like noobtown.

2. The tone given in his posts appears genuine and consistent. No mood swings like other players.

3. His vote on Io seen as "reaching" is another reason I solidly townread him. While I don't think that he is voting mafia at the moment, I think that his vote was justified and the way he voted was towny. I just think it's wrong.

1. How do you differentiate newb town from newb scum?

2. Isn't it normal for people to have moods that change - if he really comes across as not having changing moods, that would suggest he's a robot or something, which is unnatural. Why does that suggest town and normalacy to you?

3. His vote might have been justified, but I will note that even in his strongest defense of his intended meaning that Io is "stretching" he *AGREES* that he was attacking me - he just wants to claim he was attacking some other people too. So, at that stage, what is scummy about Io's "stretch" exactly in Karnos' mind to justify attacking someone for pointing out something that was true?

1. fu

2. ck

3. you

I'm sorry, were the questions too intense for you?
Or are my questions blatantly insulting?
What's your deal man? I feel like I'm playing with an eight year old right now.

[Thor665]

No, that's bull-hookey - you have not made yourself clear on the points I questioned.

If you can quote answers to those questions I will auto sheep you for the rest of the game in apology and defend your cussing adamantly to the mod as good play.
So, go ahead and do that.

Or man up and just answer valid questions.

[Thor665]

wait i misread that lol

still i don't feel like answering your questions any more than i have, so deal with it.

You have not answered my questions in the thread yet.
I'll take this as an admission that you're not capable of doing so.

[Thor665]

no it's that you're not worth my time

Yeah, like I said, incapable of doing so.

[Thor665]

Because he's not a very good player.
Or he's scum.
I lean the former.

[Thor665]

I recall mention of him having played a VERY good scum game not too long ago. I may skim that vs this one.

If he has actual skill then he would become a scum read for me - I'll admit my read on him is based on a newbie town peacock style.

[Thor665]

Don't think Transcend would be this stubborn as scum, his tonality does feel townish.

He has openly stated he would be this stubborn as town, and his meta appears to support that.
Base town reads on things the player in question is not actively disagreeing with.

Btw, @kts: how often do you lol hammer as town?

I make it my duty to hammer any L-1 regardless of my alignment or the other persons alignment.

Note to self - put KTS at L-1.

[Thor665]

Don't think Transcend would be this stubborn as scum, his tonality does feel townish.

He has openly stated he would be this stubborn as SCUM, and his meta appears to support that.
Base town reads on things the player in question is not actively disagreeing with.

Btw, @kts: how often do you lol hammer as town?

I make it my duty to hammer any L-1 regardless of my alignment or the other persons alignment.

Note to self - put KTS at L-1.

Fixed

[Thor665]

Why is everyone so confident on a red flip? I was the primary pusher and I'm not that confident.

[Thor665]

Hell - it took forever to wrangle that wagon through, where was my help from all the ultra confident peeps?

[Thor665]

I'm confident he's town

And thus the lol hammer? Or has post hammer stuff changed your mind?

Yeah, it's pretty slimy to policy hammer a town read.
That's inherent terrible town play.

[Thor665]

Advertising it is questionable wolf play.
Advertising it or not is bad town play.

Wolves is the original game - Werewolf.

[Thor665]

I'm voting KTS and I didn't vote Karnos. So not the same. And also Luna is town for sure. my only definite town read. It's Luna

So you look at the Karnos wagon and his reactions and the only assured town read you get is Luna?


And Transcend has me as 50% lynch option - oh ye of poor play.

@KTS - I want a link to another game with you "lolhammering" or a link to your lolhammer vow please.
Otherwise I'mma side with Luna on the question of your alignment. You look weak, son!

[Thor665]

And who was it I was debating about Karnos' play not matching up to his town meta?
That slot should be looked at (unless I'm remembering correctly that it was Transcend, in which case continue apace).

[Thor665]

KTS, Rosske, and Transcend - I'm leaning towards a scum in that set.

[Thor665]

That early game we had a three vote wagon on scum (Io, Thor, Troubador)
And a three vote on town (Rosske, Transcend, and KTS)
Data mine.

That said, I'm calling Rosske likely town on a re-read.

Does someone have meta on Tenshii? Lots of people are calling that slot town, and all I can really find her doing is hard derpa defending Karnos' "logic".
Would she tend to do that for a scumbuddy? Or is she a buser? Or even can someone explain a townread on the slot?

[Thor665]

I might be losing my Transcend town read.

[Thor665]

Greetings all, totally behind a lot of pages - this Snapchat show is pretty wonky and went with a one day weekend, which is just cruel.

Has anything of interest happened since the flip? I'm at about a .00001% chance of ever reading all those pages betwixt then and now, so Cliff Note me.

[Thor665]

VOTE: KillTheStory

I'm still serious about the question I asked that no one fielded.
Why is Tenshii a townread for peeps?
I got nothing there.
Slot feels super empty.
Whassup?

[Thor665]

no`

Since you think I was potentially bussing - I'm fine with skipping yours

[Thor665]

@thor: you think karnos wolf bro shamelessly tosses on a "screw you" vote right after you start to push karnos? I have limited meta w kts (we were both in mass effect Mafia but I wasn't reading the game all that closely tbh); you know him well enough to comment on if this is his relatively normal wolf meta?

I don't know his meta from a hole in the wall.
His attack over the walls was laughably bad regardless of his alignment, I spent more time being amazed that someone liked it (Luna or Tenshii if I recall correctly, I forget which).
I don't see it as particularly evident of non scum/scum interaction though.

[Thor665]

I don't see Karnos' attitude towards Io and vice versa as scum theatre.

[Thor665]

Agreed. I'm trying to figure out how meaningful that moment from karnos was, when he (as a wolf) elected NOT to push on KTS, even though KTS was the counter-wagon gaining momentum. It's possible it was as simple as not wanting to be called out for bandwagoning, but even there if KTS was town I'd have expected to at least see some kind of soft push or something trying to deflect the momentum that way, barring some other good reason not to do so. And I'm not sure "karnos was super pissed off" is necessarily either true or an adequate explanation. Thoughts?

My thought is that we should flip KTS - it will be informative.
Also, he seems to have stopped posting - let's call that scum giving up and speed lynch him just to be safe.
Or at least L-1 him for yuks, since he ducked my meta question like a scum coward.

[Thor665]

This is a game

It would become better with a lynch.
You should vote KTS.
There is too much anti-Luna wagon energy for that one to go through without a strong case - and you don't make those, so that option is pretty dead methinks.

[Thor665]

KTS has failed to live up to his claim of lolhammering.
Someone should lolhammer him.

[Thor665]

tbh transcend i'm open to lynching rosske too so maybe tomorrow if kts doesn't flip scum

Eh, what's the Rosske scum case?
It's a boring slot that isn't doing much, but...that kind of makes me feel there's not much of a case there beyond 'hey, boring!'

because i don't like his reason for voting him it doesn't look genuine

Yeah, I need to work on the "genuinosity" of my RVS votes before getting an actual case.

Aside from the fact that I don't need your recognition, I don't think PC is Town so I want him dead.

Do you think KTS is town? If so, why? If not, why not hammer him?

Never minddddd. Just ISO tojam real quick and you'll get what I mean. The deadline has been the exact same for the past how many vc posts now.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

What did KTS do to look more like town in the interim since you voted him?
Or, I suppose, what did someone say that revealed to you the brilliance of the PC = scum case?

[Thor665]

Looking at his site posting, he's pretty clearly site flaking due to some issue or other, if he doesn't have a v/la going I'd support immediate replacement over prodding.

@Tenshii - why is he scum, and scum with Karanos?

[Thor665]

@Thor Literally the only reason people are townreading him, or nullreading him at best, is because "he's a bad town." There's like nothing Phantom is doing that's town indicative. Scum with Karnos, I don't have anything on it.

@mh Nothing. Granted, Io brought up an interaction Phantom did with Karnos, but I don't find that strong enough to make that as a case by itself like she did. And there's like nothing in Phantom's interactions that will scream TvT, SvS, TvS and I assume it will stay that way.

So...it's a "boring, yeah!" case then?
Because you're not describing any actual scum activity here - you're just saying he doesn't look town, which, sure, I'll agree with you on, but...neither does KTL last I checked, so what's the big dif. in wanting to unvote KTS and push PC?

What are you up to? This looks like a strategic value call, not a town suspicion one.

I'm seriously pretty sure scum bussed for towncred or it's just Rosske.

can't see PC+Karnos!Scum based on how d1 unfolded.

If scum bussed...well, KTS voted Karnos, so...

What about KTS/Karnos precludes them as partners to your mind?

[Thor665]

KTS was the final blow to him aka Karnos had no more to do to defend himself once KTS voted. I'd like to think one of the people who placed bad votes on him is scum over him who just hammered him.

My read of that was KTSscum going 'aw jeez! I better get in this vote quick so I can get some town cred'
You'll note he hasn't supplied any info on his theoretical past lolhammer habits, right. Making this an unusual move for him. That doesn't suggest anything to you?

I do think Giga and Io were more justified in their votes than KTS fwiw.

Totally, that goes without saying.

[Thor665]

Luna or Smith getting ""towncred"" is not really that believable. Without their votes, the Karnos wagon probably would not have gone through, so I think a scum!Luna would have continued to push Phantom instead of move to Karnos. Smith was SR'ing Luna, so why not stick to that and try to buddy you?

Luna was really the pressure shifter - if that's a bus I'm amazed. Her vote is the one that tipped Karnos from a big deal wagon to a wagon almost assured to go through. The only way I see her as scum is if she's bad at understanding how wagon momentum works.

I could see mhsmith's move as potential bus, it actually is sort of a classic bus timing and method, really. Why do you love it so much?

[Thor665]

The KTS iso as regards Karnos is pretty icky, by the by.
Calls him a townread early for no reason.
Confirms that read holds.
Then basically doesn't mention him at all until he "feels" like quickhammering.

Yeah.

[Thor665]

I don't know if I'll be able to cope with life if luna fox flips scum, and survives like 5 mislynches after i nailed her instantly.

You'll probably deal with it the same way everyon ewho noticed how obv. scum Karnos was dealt with you repeatedly proclaiming him as town and trying to actively derail the wagon.

[Thor665]

I wouldn't say I love it but it felt natural to me because Kcda was scumreading Karnos (and saw a KTS/Karnos scumteam before anyone else called it) and I'm townreading Smith.

I'll admit, Smith is assuredly doing/saying things to fill me with warm fuzzies.
I just don't think the vote itself screams town.

@Transcend - then learn another way to push a case? Because the way you do it clearly doesn't work.

[Thor665]

My case is simplified. You guys aren't buying it, I'm not gonna waste my time and go full in depth when I'd still probably get laughed off.

Not happening.

So...what are you doing here?
You don't think you have a case worth presenting, yet it's the only thing you seem to care to talk about.
I don't get it.

[Thor665]

Why should she not be? I find her more town than you or Rosske, that, by definition, tends to shift her towards townbloc.

[Thor665]

We should get Karnos back in here to mod, just like Chess Mafia.

[Thor665]

I prodded the mod - if he doesn't get here within 24 I'll drop a line to the list mod.

[Thor665]

So it's a lurker slot you want to lynch - I'm okay with that.
But that's not a scum case.
That's a 'shouldn't be allowed to live till lylo' case.

Is it lylo yet?
No?
Okay then, we can lynch the slot with a scum case on them.

How do you feel about all the people handing you town reads - do you think that's deserved?
If so - why?
If not - why not?

[Thor665]

For a derp lurk lynch, lylo matters a great deal, as long as we lynch him prior to lylo we are fine.
Lynching KTS gives just as much info as lynching PC - if you disagree please outline the difference in the information gained.
I don't think KTS was particularly giving brilliant info - if you would like to expand on the interesting thoughts he was offering I'm all ears.
I will agree no on ewas "sure" on KTS being scum - I am pretty sure the same would apply to PC, and certainly applied to Karnos.

So you figure "dunno where it's coming from, but it's all Jake"
Do you think the last scum is town reading you to buddy you - or is your theory only town are town reading you?

Can you pint out one of your actions in this game and explain the complete sense it makes so I can maybe see the town energy it should contain?
I am blatantly not town reading you, and find the read quite silly from others, so am duecedly confused by it and would love to see it explained.

[Thor665]

Lynching PC gives info on KTS. Lynching KTS doesn't give info on PC.

What would a town flip from PC have taught us about KTS?

And it doesn't necessarily have to be info as in townreads or scumreads, but also info like reacting to the flip of PC.

You're saying there is no info to get from reactions to KTS' lynch?

I don't know yet. I'm inclined to believe the latter atm.

Why did you change from scum buddying you to all town town reading you?

Like me on Karnos? I still fully believe that he could've been the same way as town. He just happened to flip scum. So it makes complete sense for me to paint that as NAI. Or me attacking Phantom? Like I can't tell if you're just that deep in the hole or you truly don't get it. More information is always and undeniably good. Unless you are 100% sure on KTS being scum, you should always be happy to get more info on him. Keeping PC around will gain you NOTHING. PC will undeniably get lynched at some point. I don't see him getting nightkilled. The only way I can see PC giving info is if he just suddenly decides to start contributing.

I will agree that PC is going to get lynched this game unless we hit scum prior to that lynch.
I'm not following why your actions are supposed to read as town - they just look like opinions, like everyone has offered, yeah?

Also I personally don't believe in asking a person to explain themselves to as why they are town. Like from your pov, anything I say to prove I'm town is just me painting a self meta that I'm aware of. It's like a loaded question. If I threw the question back at you and say for example you answered with "I attacked Karnos, and that makes me town." That implies that you wouldn't do that as mafia, and then because you yourself are saying that, it makes it lose credibility.

Self meta only loses credibility if it can't be supported.
You're the one saying you understand why all these people are town reading you - I'm not asking for self meta, I'm asking you to explain why their reads appear justified. You...do think they appear justified, yeah? You must, because you're calling them town. So - explain it.

[Thor665]

@Mod - we need a replace for PC, he is far past reasonable prod range, and is active posting as an alt while ignoring this game, that is uncool to all of us.

Atm, I feel like we should either lynch me or Phantom today.

Don't disagree - are you voting Phantom right now? Because I feel like you're not, and then this comment looks weird.

Actually, I want to lynch this because the scumread of Tenshii (note that I am not scumreading him) is based entirely on the fact that he pushed a counterwagon to Karnos. But we don't know the alignment of the counterwagonnee, so this should be our first lynch, no questions asked.

That logic is silly.

I know my alignment. Transcend is active lurking, discrediting and manipulating information.

How is Transcend active lurking or manipulating?

[Thor665]

Don't disagree - are you voting Phantom right now? Because I feel like you're not, and then this comment looks weird.

Does me voting/not voting Phantom change anything I say?

Yes - that's why I literally said it would in the post you quoted. "then"

@Thor I could apply the same logic to you. You're scumreading me atm right? Then why aren't you voting for me?

Yes, I am scumreading you.
I have not indicated my top scumread though.
Are you saying PC is *not* your top scumread?''

You never poked me

You deserve replace regardless - over a week with nothing while being active on the site and not giving a v/la is uncool.
If you want to stay - explain what happened and offer actual reads on the game.
Otherwise mod should have canned you days ago.

[Thor665]

The last scum is Giga or Luna, probably not rosske

I literally disagree with all three of those reads.
Could you unpack any of them?

Rosske looks like a pretty valid lynch choice besides how Karnos might have been attacking him, but besides that his play looks perfectly solid as scumplay and weak as town play, and distancing is assuredly a thing.
How do you figure Giga was a bus?
Moreso, how do you figure Luna was a bus, as she looks like a stronger town candidate than Giga considering interactions with Karnos.

[Thor665]

Well wanna vote Rosske then?

It wouldn't surprise me if he just gave up. His play has been so bad i get the feeling he's not even trying.

Rosske is on my short list.

Sure dude. It totally does. Like if I spend all of this time attacking somebody, and I don't have a vote on him, it totally changes what I say. What's your point in bringing it up anyways? Are you saying I'm scummy for doing it? If so, how and why?

I've said you're scummy for a few things - pushing someone without voting for them while calling them your top scum read is a prima facie scummy action.

Vote: Phantom Cobalt

[Thor665]

Sure - for starters, explain to me why town would choose not to vote their top scumread nowhere close to mylo or lylo.

I'll wait.

[Thor665]

And the reason scum would do it is due to lack of actual belief in their claims, and also for strategic purposes if they think the move will get them called out.

[Thor665]

So you're saying scum would act like that to avoid being called out. But isn't there so much to call me out on already?

Considering that you started as a majority town read and I alone have yelled and noted to make people shift you to null or scum I would disagree.
You have intentionally been playing in a distant way in my opinion to try to avoid clear issues with your slot, and for the most part it worked for you.

So is this PC-rosske-tenshii for you then?

To a degree, yes.

He's posting a lot without saying anything, and he's using appeals to emotions to taint information in the color he wants

To the first part, that is blatantly untrue - he's assuredly saying far more than you, and with less effort to get the info.

I can see that he's being emotional, I agree there - can you show me an example of him using it to "taint" information?

[Thor665]

@Rosske - I am discrediting you - because if you think his level of participation is scummy, then so is your level, and even moreso than him. So why are you playing the way you think scum should play if you're town?

You also didn't answer my question looking for an example of the emotional info taint. Was that an intentional duck of the question?

@Transcend - I find his claim that you're a filler post and emotional machine to be pretty valid, actually. If you honestly think that's not true I would take a reassessed look at your play, because it is true. The only question is if you're doing it in a scummy way, and I guardedly say no.

[Thor665]

I would note that you're being distant when people town read you and I ask "why?" and it gets them to scum read or null read you.
Your iso is empty.

You spent most of Day 1 pushing no one particularly hard, and defending Karnos.
You spent most of Day 2 pushing a lurk slot for no case other than being a lurker.
You have spent most of this day defending yourself against someone who isn't voting you.

If you can't see how that's an empty iso, you are lying to me, or you are lying to yourself, or both.

[Thor665]

@Thor I don't understand how that is being distant. That's just a case of people reconsidering their read on me.

Yeah, and if the distance hadn't created false reads it wouldn't have happened. QED.

Empty = Nothing? All of my actions were justified right? How about actually pointing out what you mean by that?

How about a list of actions that you think have meat to them?
I'm serious when I say that I think all of your actions are empty. I'll agree you surface justified them, I'm not calling the fakery low quality, but you haven't dug into anything at any point this game. Pick any given action of yours - the only thing you've done that remotely has got you dug in is defending yourself, and, defending Karnos. I'm not really feeling the town energy from either action.

Line 1 = I'm sorry that I don't go as hard in the paint as you supposedly expect me to? And I still believe in my Karnos defense.
Line 2 = And this is bad because? I don't think anyone and their mother refuted my logic on it. I'm even inclined to think you agree with me to at least some extent because you were on the wagon.
Line 3 = Yeah....what do you want me to do, not defend myself?

1. The defense is bad due to his flip, and yeah, you don't go hard in in my opinion.
2. I did not support the wagon then, and actively was pointing out that you didn't have anything even close to a scum case on him. I'm only lynching him today because we're obligated to due to him being unreadable.
3. I would love it if it didn't seem like the most important thing in the game to you.

Also it's easy af to just generalize everything I did like that and call it "empty." Whatever you mean by that. Assuming your beef is that I haven't interacted with other people hard enough, did you not see my dodgeball rant? I'm pretty sure everyone in this game has dodged a question from me at least once. It doesn't help that for whatever reason, most people are inclined to dodge me unless it's a very argumentative matter.

I don't get how that paints you as town.

[Thor665]

Shouldn't the thread lock for scum killage?

[Thor665]

Decent non-info kill option from scum.



VC Day 1 - 3

karnos

L-3 -

Io

,

Thor665

, gigabyte

Thor665

L-3 -

Killthestory

, Transcend, Rosske

Io

L-5 -

karnos

VC Day 1 - 4

karnos

L-2 -

Io

,

Thor665

,

PhantomCobalt

, gigabyte

Thor665

L-3 -

Killthestory

, Transcend, Rosske

Killthestory

L-5 - kcdaspot

VC Day 1 - 5

karnos

L-3 -

Io

,

Thor665

, gigabyte

PhantomCobalt

L-4 - Luna Fox, Tenshii

Io

L-4 -

karnos

,

Killthestory

VC Day 1 - 5

karnos

L-3 -

Io

,

Thor665

, gigabyte

PhantomCobalt

L-4 - Luna Fox, Tenshii

Io

L-4 -

karnos

,

Killthestory

Luna Fox L-5 - Transcend

Thor665

L-5 - Rosske

Killthestory

L-5 - Kcdaspot
Transcend L-5 -

PhantomCobalt

VC Day 1 - 9

karnos

Lynched - Luna Fox,

Io

,

Thor665

, gigabyte, mhsmith0,

Killthestory

PhantomCobalt

L-5 - Tenshii

Io

L-4 -

karnos

, Rosske
Transcend L-5 -

PhantomCobalt

Luna Fox L-5 - Transcend

VC Day 2 - 3

PhantomCobalt

L-5 -

Io

Luna Fox L-5 -

PhantomCobalt

Killthestory

L-1 - gigabyte, Luna Fox,

Thor665

, mhsmith0, Tenshii
Transcend L-4 -

Killthestory

, Rosske
gigabyteTroubadour L-5 - Transcend

PhantomCobalt

L-5 -

Io

VC Day 3 - 2

PhantomCobalt

Lynched -

Io

, Tenshii, Luna Fox, gigabyteTroubadour,

Thor665

Rosske L-4 - Transcend
Transcend L-4 - Rosske

[Thor665]

VOTE: Tenshii

[Thor665]

I'm not ruling out the fact that both scum were voting the same person.

In my NY game I just finished, there was a flashwagon that happened on Vedith the mafia Neapolitan and the other 3 mafia had their votes parked in pairs on two non-Vedith non-mafia lynches (pretty sure it was 2 on AGar and 2 on shannon).

So yes, scum can, and do vote together.

Sure, they do.
Do you think that's what happened here specifically?
It wasn't a flashwagon on Io.

Rosske's one exchange with Karnos (that I remember) was very forced, and almost a scumslip.

Can you explain the scumslip there? I'm not seeing it.

I don't mean to shame you all, but you really should've just subbed Phantom out as opposed to just lynching him and banking on the coinflip.

I feel no shame on that, though I put partial blame on the mod, but the slot was assuredly lynched for being a no show, and not for any other reason.

[Thor665]

Looking at the Rosske/Karnos interaction - he functionally called him out for attacking me while not voting me.
I don't really see that as likely scum/scum. *maaaaaaaybe* it was a signal to vote move, but I actually would submit that signals to vote move basically never happen on Day 1 - feel free to prove me wrong by showing it ever happening on Day 1 in any game.

[Thor665]

VOTE: Transcend


Everything you post makes me more confident about this

I am not a fan of that vote at all - what's the Transcend case? There isn't one beyond you getting miffy that he posts kinda like a jerk.
Don't vote jerks.
Vote scum.

[Thor665]

@Thor. Your case on me is Distance, Not trying enough, Town Energy, Karnos Defense, Me scumreading Phantom, Me only defending myself against you.

Yes.

Distance - What the Smurf do you mean by me being distant? You're saying that because they reconsidered their read, that means they are distant. But that still doesn't make sense to me. That's just them reconsidering their read.

You are distant because you don't really get involved in anything. I've said this before. You've spent most of the game wanting to lynch a lurker for lurking - that was your big push. The only times you seem to have become involved are to defend Karnos and to defend yourself.

Not trying enough - Again, I feel that I've tried plenty hard enough, especially given how people have been responding to me.

People aren't responding to you because you're distant.
Are people responding to me? Yes? What magical power do I have that you lack?
Oh, and when people don't respond to me I keep asking - if you're town, it's your job to get an answer, asking once and going 'oh well' is not a valid excuse.

Town Energy - I'm pretty sure this is how I got townread in the first place the more I think about it.

If you say so, clearly it ran out except for Transcend.

Karnos Defense - Your only reason on this being bad is because of his flip. At the time when I defended him, people agreed with me to an extent. Luna was the prime example.

I agree that it is a scummy action due to the flip and not inherently.
Doesn't change that it's scummy.
Can you describe anyone else who went to the Karnos defense level that you did?
I also don't recall Luna particularly chiming in with support - if you think there's a case there feel free to present it.

Me scumreading Phantom - My logic was can't be town therefore scum. And I'm pretty sure I was not the only person who scumread him. You can't tell me that everyone who voted him just wanted to pure policy it.

Can you describe a case offered by anyone on the slot? I'll wait.
I'll agree I may have been the only one being honest in my reasoning, but that doesn't change the reality of the wagon.
Do you think scum didn't vote for PC?

Me only defending myself against you - At the time, I was 100% prioritizing the Phantom lynch. Fmpov, it doesn't make sense to push anyone else if I want a Phantom lynch.

And since then you've done...what exactly?

[Thor665]

Transcend is pushing me the exact same way he pushed KTS. And look how that turned out. It seems like he has a tendacy to just put on blinders and push one specific person towards lynch. And then he covers up his blatant subversiveness with empty smokescreens of unfriendliness. We're meant to be too distracted by his negative tone to actually pay attention to his actions in this game.

I am not supporting your lynch and yet every time you say something it appears to be unsupported and just kind of random.
What's going on with you in this game?
Do you feel you are playing normally?
Why do you not back up your evidence when people call it untrue?
Why do you, if you discover they are right, not alter your stance when something is called untrue?

[Thor665]

How about you explain again why he's scum - as stands Rosske will not likely vote himself, and mhsmith and I are both indicating town reads on him and that we want you to discuss your case. That means even if Giga and Wing both agree with you, you still won't be able to get the slot lynched.

Which means you need to change up your tactics.


Why do you see Tenshii as town? Is it still just the vague 'everything' comment that reads to me as 'gut'? I don't think there is anything one can really point at that showcases strong town motive from Tenshii, am I missing something?

[Thor665]

I would put at near 100% that scum is within Giga, Wing, mhsmith, and Tenshii.

I can accept that maybe scum didn't bus Karnos, but the idea that scum didn't vote KTS seems highly unlikely.

[Thor665]

**** you I've already explained it

Well, Smurf you, explain it again if you actually want the lynch to happen.
If you don't want the lynch to happen keep ignoring that you need mhsmith or me to vote in agreement, and note that both of us want the same thing from you - I'm just noting reality here. I can probably get a Tenshii lynch without you. You can't get a Rosske lynch without explaining your case like a grown boy.

I've delved into all his posts and made the best case possible.

Quote it?
Because thus far all i remember is the Karnos not voting Thor thing, and you were totally misrepresenting what happened there, and multiple people noted that, so it's super weaksauce at this stage.

You're just so focused on your horrid tenshii tunnel.

And you're focused on your horrid Rosske one, what of it?
Tunneling isn't an issue - especially if you can explain your logic.

[Thor665]

Rule #1 of mafia. No one controls my vote. I vote who i want. Period. End of statement.

Absolutely you do.

All I'm saying is without a change in tactics you can't get the lynch you want.
If that doesn't bother you - then I sorta question why you play the game, but you can keep doing what you're doing and we'll lynch Tenshii.

[Thor665]

Lemme get this straight, you think that the slot that did the replace out they just did (usually ro's are not alignment indicative, but this is a special case) has a better chance of being scum over Rosske who has failed to give logical explanation to any of his motives, AND has contradicted himself?

Yes, yes I do.
I also have no expressed interest to lynch that slot either - which should point out where my stance on Rosske is.

[Thor665]

Then proceed with that plan, I suppose.
I bet you can get Tenshii's vote very easily.

[Thor665]

Okay then thor, riddle me this:

Why DON'T you want to lynch Rosske.

I've said why I've wanted to, you've negated my suspicions but you've never explained why.

Personally, i feel my case is solid, but obviously you don't.

So,

Why am i wrong?

Looking at the Rosske/Karnos interaction - he functionally called him out for attacking me while not voting me.
I don't really see that as likely scum/scum. *maaaaaaaybe* it was a signal to vote move, but I actually would submit that signals to vote move basically never happen on Day 1 - feel free to prove me wrong by showing it ever happening on Day 1 in any game.

[Thor665]

That requires us to divine that he misrecalled his own vote.
What evidence is there to suggest that he had no recollection of who he was voting/thought he was voting me?

[Thor665]

I don't get that at all - the only scummy thing I can really see there is maybe him not voting Karnos over it.
Looking at his completed scum game he explained himself a lot more, and stuck to a single position, and didn't vote very quickly.
Looking at other postings in games that may or may not exist I don't see that as a similar vibe from games he may or may not have had a scum role in.

It's not a large sample size, but that paired with a read based on a presumption isn't selling me on the case.

[Thor665]

'non-scum role in'

[Thor665]

Yeah, how utterly unreasonable and unwilling to present my thoughts I'm being.

[Thor665]

Anyone firmly townreading Transcend is welcome to convince me to join a different wagon.

I currently townread him, and have noted on multiple occasions that you're making up buzzwords and attacking him over them - why are you not noticing that?

Okay so you're defining distant as in not getting involved. How is this not getting involved? Is pushing Phantom, defending Karnos, defending self, asking questions not getting involved?

Yes.
And you have now asked me for the third time the same question - I already described why I don't think you're involved.

So because I'm being distant, people aren't responding to me. So how can people decline to respond to me in the first place if I'm asking questions aka getting involved?

I don't see why asking questions and not pursuing answers defends the position that you are involved.

I mean sure I guess if you wanna do that go ahead. I 100% disagree with it though. By that logic, if he flipped town would you townread me? To the extent that you scumread me now?

No, I wouldn't, but there's a big difference in a two person scum game of defending a flipped scum and defending a flipped town.

I also don't recall Luna particularly chiming in with support - if you think there's a case there feel free to present it.

I specifically remember Luna saying how she resonated with me and how she felt the whole argument between Thor+Io vs Karnos was TvT.

If you feel there's a case there feel free to present it - what you are doing is lisiting something you think may have happened. You're not stating a belief, you're not providing evidence, you're not making a case.
You're being distant. You appear to want me to state a belief, or make a case, or form a thought. You are doing nothing here. Hence - distant.

Io brought up a post which effectively started the bw on Phantom. I nullified Giga's auto-townread on Phantom due to an RVS vote, which I assumed eventually made Giga scumread Phantom. And I don't necessarily know if scum voted PC. I'm inclined to think that though atm.

When I asked you for the case, you expressly didn't have one.
Are you claiming now that there was a case?
If you think scum voted PC - who do you think is scum?

Okay sure dude, I've done nothing. Is me bringing up my thoughts on Rosske and Karnos's potential partners with reasons a bunch of nothing to you too?

Yes, because you just listed off some stuff, and drew no conclusions. If I hadn't have read it it would do nothing to change my understanding of your reads.

Also, are you so deep in the tunnel and so sold on me being scum that you can post 1680 without even considering Rosske being scum?

I have expressly considered Rosske as scum, and described why I currently town read him as recently as a page back when Transcend asked me to provide info I'd already stated in thread multiple times.
What evidence do you have that leads you to think I didn't consider Rosske for scum? There is nothing but evidence to the contrary.

@Thor

Hypothetically, I get lynched and I flip town. Does that make you scum for pushing a town slot so hard?

I'm 99% sure you'll say "No because...." so whatever reason you have, just apply that to me defending Karnos.

Let's change this up so it isn't a straw man.

Let's say I offer only three real reads in the game, one that I am town, one that a lurker was scum off no case beyond lurking who flipped town, and one that a player was town who later flipped scum. Would I be a valid lynch option?

The answer to that is a clear 'Yes'.

The answer to your question is 'No because...' - but your question does not reflect what I am calling you scum over, so me having a different answer there doesn't actually suggest that I am being hypocritical in any way at all.

Others

Tenshii - expressed in 1721 that he didn't see why Thor would be an obvious first shot. Also could have been an intentional avoidance of a shot against someone who went after him pre PC flip
Rosske - could have been an attempt to silence Io, could have been a shot by someone who just hasn't been particularly dialed into the game.

Why would Rosske want to "silence" Io?
Io was pushing a Rosske as town concept prior to his death.
That would be like Rosske wanting to silence me.

Haven't seen any votes since the last VC, despite 4 new pages of content.

@Mod - There haven't been - I would note that even in that case I would appreciate a new vote count reflecting no vote movement.

[Thor665]

Lean town.

[Thor665]

Indeed.

[Thor665]

I will say that if this a bus it's kinda weird. "Yeah I suppose I might possibly find may way onto that thing" is like not even slightly something that looks like doing it for the town credit. The flip side is it could be an empty post designed to make it look like tenshii was cool w a karnos lynch... but what's the point? Soft-pushing that a buddy lynch is acceptable... to reduce the association w karnos after a flip? If karnos flipped green this could be an opportunistic back off of a read in order to let the lynch happen, but he didn't.

The thing is, it wasn't a bus, because Tenshii never opted to go for a bus or a vote on Karnos.

@Tenshii - do you bus or not bus as scum?

And the hard defense on karnos at http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8157836 is weird if a buddy too. That was l-1, karnos was always gonna die at that point (even if temporarily saved he'd always be a scum-spect), that's either the wifom machine, a wolf who doesn't care how bad that makes him look at first glance, or a townie who just honestly had a really bad read there.

I will agree that it is not particularly alignment telling at that stage, but I don't get the point you're trying to make - if the post isn't telling, why bring it up?

[Thor665]

Yeah... Late night posting, got mixed up. The framework for rosske motive there would really just be to shoot a town read, or basically a result of not being dialed into the game. It's not impossible (likelier than some others), but seems like a weak case. Plan to skim a bit tonight but prob. won't have much to say until weekend.

I'm just saying, of all the players in the game, Rosske probably had the least motive to shoot Io over one of the other generally accepted townreads.

[Thor665]

-Townreads Rosske even though Thor has blatant problems with Rosske's play

I also have issues with Transcend's play.

-Scumreads me for not providing a case/evidence yet when Transcend blatantly refuses to give a case on Rosske, Thor just accepts it.

That's not actually why I said I scumread you - I would think you'd know this because you've asked me why I scumread you about four or five times by now.

[Thor665]

If it's tenshii vs thor I'm lynching thor

This is pretty solid evidence that town should lynch Tenshii

[Thor665]

Pretty sure we are 'dealing' big boy.
That said, anytime you want to start playing pro-town, i won't be sad

[Thor665]

I also have issues with Transcend's play.

Even better.

That's not actually why I said I scumread you - I would think you'd know this because you've asked me why I scumread you about four or five times by now.

You used it as part of your case on me.

I used it as an example of how few actual stances you've taken - that is an utter difference from what you're saying I used it as.

What's your read on trans thor? Sounds like you think he's super derpy town; do I have that correct or do you carry any suspicion on him?

I would put him about equal to you in my town reads.
Lean town.
Lesser reads than Rosske, Luna, or Giga.

E f f you if you think my reads are dumb. I've genuinely had these reads all game.

Yup, longevity is the true measure of the quality of a read

VOTE: Rosske

I want to go with my original plan here.

Two people have straight up claimed that this game does not match meta analysis of his scum v. town play.
You don't wanna weigh in on that and would rather vote the slot?

[Thor665]

Two people have straight up claimed that this game does not match meta analysis of his scum v. town play.
You don't wanna weigh in on that and would rather vote the slot?

I don't think you can meta a player with only 140 posts on this site in all honesty.

I disagree - I would perhaps agree with, you can't meta them with the same accuracy of someone with a larger pile of evidence to draw from.
But he does have two completed games now (I guess, when I did it I drew from a non-complete albeit Rosske's part was complete).
One looks like this game.
One does not look anything like this game.

Isn't that telling?

So? I'm just going to read his alignment like I have been for everyone else (besides Phantom), and I think he's the scummiest slot alive. Obviously my reads aren't going to be perfect, but my short list is pretty much down to {Rosske, Tenshii}.

What makes him the scummiest slot alive?
What has he done that is scummy, and what was his plan?
PEdit - maybe this doesn't matter now.

It's usually a town thing to do that, right? But at the same time, he completely misrepresented Transcend to justify his push on him.

Yeah, that's a bothersome niggle - but since my playstyle as town is to often lynch people who do that sort of stuff, I can assure you it's a spotty scumtell.

I just hope you understand why I'm so pissed when not one single lynch I've wanted has gained more than half the amount of votes needed to be lynched. Makes me feel kinda ~useless~.

You can't change the way you play, bra!

[Thor665]

gigabyte finding reasons to discredit my meta is scummy.

You discrediting Gigabyte's analysis is scummy.
Me discrediting your discredit is scummy.

No - Gigabyte's issues with your meta clear are concise, clear, and very valid points - it is not scummy at all.
You not actually discussing the reasoning behind Wing and me rough clearing you is vastly more scummy than what Giga is doing.
Why aren't you discussing your meta?

I look like an easy mislynch.

You are an easy lynch.
Could you do something about that?

I feel like IF transcend is town, he's playing very destructively, and scum could likely use that to fuel their own anti-town motives, and I feel like you're most likely to be guilty of that.

Does that jive with his interactions with Karnos? You think that looks like a bus?

I admit I've been used by scum before as ammunition to lead the game to a loss because I tend to death tunnel people and if I'm wrong it's basically a free win for them.

You can't change the way you play bra!

[Thor665]

@Giga - Outside of scum Rosske I could guardedly agree that scum Transcend would theory gain the least by an Io kill.

@mhsmith - I actually like that you're digging at motive there, but after he answers I'll be very interested to see what you think you might have exposed even if he doesn't trigger it - because it looks like you're bum rushing a wall.

[Thor665]

because it looks like you're bum rushing a wall.

clarify what you mean here? Just that he's not been responsive or something more?

I mean the point appears to lead to nowhere.

Why did you think this was a decent non-info kill option? Io had a low post count, but had actively staked out positions (including a town read on rosske). I'm not going to say it was a terrible kill (she'd been productive in her postings), but it was a surprising kill. As a counter-example, I think that a shooter going for a "decent non-info kill option" would probably have shot giga, since that avoids eliminating someone with a meaningful counter-consensus opinion, or just you for obvious reasons. Do you disagree?

Beyond the Rosske thing, that took me a while to suss out, and other people a lot longer - feel free to list all the info that kill gave us.
That makes it a decent non-info kill.

my goal isn't to towntell, i don't give two Smurfs about towntelling.

my goal is to find scum.

i did not sign up for this game to appease you mofos i signed up to lynch mafia.

You can't change the way you play bra!

so with that said, i openly welcome a rope around my neck and i honestly hope you can manage to screw up five mislynches after you somehow lynched one of the mafia d1.

Why not replace out - as currently stands you appear to be claiming desire to play against wincon, which is against site rules.

i hate being sheepy but no compter access means no cases

When does this situation end again?
You are being very unhelpful.

I think Thor scumreads me defending Karnos as either alignment, but I think only scum!Thor lets Transcend and Rosske get away with how they are playing. Also note how still the only thing town reading Thor is him being so bussy.

Yeah, how strange to townread me for being the most vocal attacker on the dead scum.
Totally weird value call that is.
What are people smoking!?!

Also I don't think anyone has made a case for town!Rosske that's only based on actual day play.

What does that have to do with anything?
They did make a case based on meta - which is sorta day play, does that not count?
Apparently making a case on Thor for only day play is bad.
So why is it bad they went the other way with Rosske?

[Thor665]

gigabyte finding reasons to discredit my meta is scummy.

You discrediting Gigabyte's analysis is scummy.
Me discrediting your discredit is scummy.

No - Gigabyte's issues with your meta clear are concise, clear, and very valid points - it is not scummy at all.
You not actually discussing the reasoning behind Wing and me rough clearing you is vastly more scummy than what Giga is doing.
Why aren't you discussing your meta?

I look like an easy mislynch.

You are an easy lynch.
Could you do something about that?

I feel like IF transcend is town, he's playing very destructively, and scum could likely use that to fuel their own anti-town motives, and I feel like you're most likely to be guilty of that.

Does that jive with his interactions with Karnos? You think that looks like a bus?

@Rosske - why is it when I ask you a question I don't get a response?
Answer some questions and pretend to be more pro town than Transcend who doesn't look town at all, please and thank you.

[Thor665]

@Thor, would you mind elaborating on your reads on Transcend and mhsmith?

In what way?
I think mhsmith is mostly town for how he ended up reacting to the Karnos wagon, and his defense of the wagon.
I think Transcend is mostly town for being a ponce.
That's really all I've got.

I'm currently reading you, Gigbyte, and Rosske as town. I have Transcend as the most likely scum candidate but I could see it being Tenshii as well. Still need to do an ISO of mhsmith to lock down that read.

Why do you clear Giga so well?

What does that have to do with anything?
They did make a case based on meta - which is sorta day play, does that not count?
Apparently making a case on Thor for only day play is bad.
So why is it bad they went the other way with Rosske?

Iirc, Rosske's slot was townread due to one nightkill and less than 200 posts for meta. Both of this is the only thing townreading a slot that has 4 days worth of content. I personally find this ridiculous. Especially when Transcend/mhsmith0 concluded that stuff like NKA, Meta, VCA, should all be stuff that support a case and not be the whole case by itself.

Why in the universe should NKA, meta, and VCA not be the whole case?
Like - you had a case yesterday of 'dude is lurking' and thought that was good but a case of 'looking over two games and seeing differences in scum and town play, combined with an analysis of who the scum's kill benefited and hurt makes me town read Rosske for the following evidence reasons (insert specifics)' is "ridiculous"?

That makes no sense as a stance.
Clarify?

@Thor When did your read on Transcend flip?

I dunno, when did you see it flip?
Because my theory belief is it's when I just commented that he wasn't playing pro town a post or two ago (ignoring that I've been saying that about him for weeks) and also ignoring that it is easily possible to think someone is town playing badly and not scum.
So I actually think you're just skimming and asking empty questions.
If it was some other point in the game - outline where I flipped my opinion and I'll explain my reasoning.

[Thor665]

Phantom was THE DEFINITION of not being town. His flip is the ONLY thing that made him town. Rosske is a slot who has nothing going for him being town except a night kill and a little bit of meta.

If he was the DEFINITION of not being town, why is it when I asked you what the case on him was you said 'lurking'?
Are you lying to me now, or were you lying to me then, or is the DEFINITION of not looking town lurking?

I don't even think you made a meta case yourself on Rosske. The read was just bandwagoned. So if you can (re?)state why Rosske is a good meta read that'd be great.

Sure - I explained my thoughts here; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8247424

[quote="In post 1934, Tenshii"Skimming, nah. But I don't really retain my memory of things that well. REGARDLESS, I think it's very fair for me to assume the possibility of you changing a read. Especially with that wording of "Transcend isn't TOWN AT ALL." Unless you're the type of person who just sticks with a read and locks onto it to oblivion

@Rosske - why is it when I ask you a question I don't get a response?
Answer some questions and pretend to be more pro town than Transcend who doesn't look town at all, please and thank you.

I think Thor scumreads me defending Karnos as either alignment, but I think only scum!Thor lets Transcend and Rosske get away with how they are playing. Also note how still the only thing town reading Thor is him being so bussy.

Requoting for emphasis.[/quote]
Yeah, there is, strangely, a difference between how you read someone and how you think they are looking due to playstyle.
I've been talking for literal weeks about how I think Transcend is shooting himself and his team, if he is town, in the foot due to his play.
Oddly the most recent statement of that stance changes nothing more than the previous ten did when it comes to my read on the slot.

[Thor665]

Not being town aka Not helping town aka Lurking

So your answer is that the DEFINITION of not being town is lurking.
That is weird.

So do you just assume that Rosske wouldn't explain himself a lot as town? Is this and a night kill really your whole town read on Rosske?

Evidence supports the theory that Rosske would explain himself more as scum.
Yes, that info, the nightkill, and my expressed opinions about the question of Karnos about the lack of a Thor vote are all of the reasons for my stated town read on Rosske, and there is no other info I have suggested is relevant.
Considering 'lurking' can be the DEFINITION of not being town, that is a pretty big pile of info, far larger than any case you have offered - so I'm not sure what your boggle with it is.

So then why are you townreading Transcend?

As stated, because I read him as derpy town, not as derpy scum.

The best way for me to stop looking like an easy lynch is to get better at playing this game, which isn't going to happen overnight. After this game I'm probably gonna head back to newbie games. I don't mean to ignore your questions, I just don't always have an answer.

Not having an answer does not validate ignoring the question. Even if your answer is 'I dunno' you should provide it.

Like, it could have been a bus? it might not have been? And what do I have to say about my meta over then people that I saying I'm playing this game like I did when I was town are correct in their deduction? At the same time tho, this is a different game. I'm playing differently this game. I can't get any reads, I spent a huge chunk of the game just being confused by the mod. Maybe I'm being selfish for wanting to stick it out and see what I can get out of it, maybe if I had replaced out someone else could have contributed more. But I'm trying

I don't actually care about you trying - I care about what I do or don't get out of you.
A question of how you think your meta does or does not match up to your town/scum playstyle is a perfectly valid question and one you ought to be able to answer.
The same thing with the bussing question - you ought to be able to look at that and offer an opinion on whether it does or does not seem a likely scum bus action or not.
These are very simple questions looking for opinion answers.
You should answer both.

Thor, how sure are you that Transcend is town? How likely would it be for two town players to death tunnel in on each other like we've done?

I am not sure he is town, I simply tend to think he is.
On the reality that at least one of you is town, we have 100% evidence that town can death tunnel. At that point, all you need is to theorize that two town could do said death tunnel to each other.
Of far more concern to me is that both of you have great difficulty explaining your death tunnels and require near constant abuse to do so - if you can't describe the case clearly and (in your instance) have been cited as making up evidence repeatedly - why are you so sure that you're death tunneling?

so has anyone read my 1925 in its entirety

I read it at length - I could have posted a wall discussing it and why I disagree but saw no real value in that action as you have shown zero interest in debate on your thoughts and had to be abused into even stating said thoughts.
Would you like to debate your case?

possibly to keep thor vs. tenshii. i haven't analyzed the kill that much and i'm not going to either.

If scum Rosske wanted to keep Thor v. Tenshii - the smarter kill would have been Giga, who was widely townread and also not a strong Rosske defender.

[Thor665]

Scum won't always make the correct kill or the logical kill

Hence why all this night kill analysis should be put to rest and we analyze in-game tells / actions.

But town won't always make the correct or logical action, hence we should analyze actions we know for a fact come from scum.
Your debate point is circular - yes, town and scum can make bad choices. That doesn't preclude one type of info over another, they are equally viable sources.

I read it at length - I could have posted a wall discussing it and why I disagree but saw no real value in that action as you have shown zero interest in debate on your thoughts and had to be abused into even stating said thoughts.
Would you like to debate your case?

sure but i'm ignoring your debate if you use the word meta in it.

You don't need to - you spent a long time in your case explaining why something was not alignment indicative, and then a paragraph immediately afterwards explaining it as the lynchpin of your case, and the entire thing falls apart without that lynchpin - which makes the case super weak as stands.

[Thor665]

I think you're mistaking spilling your heart out with effort with making a compelling case. Just because you worked hard on something does not, by definition, make it good. That I was able to poke a hole in it with a very simple observation that, as a reply, has you tossing your hands int he air and walking away - suggests that I have a rather valid point about the strength of the case.

[Thor665]

You're a pretty rude kid.

[Thor665]

Mod: I need to replace out. Sorry for any inconvenience, it was fun playing with everyone.

Dear gawd, thank you.

Don't care he's my best scum read, I've made a solid case on him. He's neglected to respond. In my eyes this is a tactical replace out.

If you honestly think that report him to a mod because that's a breaking of site rules.
I don't need to see silliness like that presented as a case.

[Thor665]

Can't declare it as tactical until i see his flip.

okay, so we agree it has no place in any conversation unless and until you see the flip.

[Thor665]

you replaced into a scum slot, goodbye good riddance.

If you're town this is your worst game I have ever seen and I am 100% blaming you for this loss

What loss? I'm pretty sure even if you're town, that we have some percentage chance of winning even if we lynch you, and then no lynch tomorrow for yucks.

i would unvote if i didn't think your predecessor replaced out because he was getting lynched as lm lmfao.

I thought we had agreed this was utterly non alignment indicative, yet here you are spewing it again.
Report it to a mod, or just stop saying it in thread please.
It is uncool.
It is not a valid case point.
It is annoying.
It reflects how you keep changing your stance, and makes you less and less worth anyone listening to.

[Thor665]

it's nai for now but i bet my house the slot flips wolf and they subbed out because of getting lynched

i'm not saying that's what happened i'm just saying that's what i think

I wish I didn't see who I replaced that's prob my biggest issue.

Why is that?

[Thor665]

You just described every single replace ever - and also every single town person who has ever been scumread, ever, because they know their own role PM, so have bias.
I don't get the issue.

[Thor665]

I'm just trying to figure out why you want the entire thread to know how difficult it is for you, since it appears to be no more difficult or unusual than any claimed town player being suspected.

[Thor665]

So basically what you meant is "look at this, it's a totally normal situation, how exciting!" yeah?

[Thor665]

So basically what you meant is "look at this, it's a totally normal situation, how exciting!" yeah?

It's not normal at all I'm in a slot that a lot of people sr and that's fun.

Barely anyone scum reads you, like about a third of the game or so, an equal number straight town read your slot.
What are you talking about?

[Thor665]

I liked Thoe until the last bits where he took back the whole sr and just said "Idk"

I did what in the where now?
Don't make stuff up - that's silly.

Help i'm laughing to hard when I should prob be crying @ me having to read more people

[Thor665]

Is there something you think I haven't weighed in on? Ask and I'll answer.
If you're just being a little boy swatting at flies - then kindly go practice spitting in the corner.

[Thor665]

So the answer is, yes, you're making empty noise complaining that I'm not doing something I've clearly done.
Thanks.

[Thor665]

Can you guys quote some things Ross did that you found mainly scummy and i'll try to understand it in a an bias light.

Insomuch as a case exists on Rosske, this is it;

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p8268349

[Thor665]

Well this will up the quality of the day

[Thor665]

I also agree that he wouldn't go so far as to actively dismantle the case against karnos if they were scum-aligned together.

Actually it does bother me a bit that he defends karnos when he's just a null-aligned read, but overall I still think Tenshii is town-aligned.

So are you on a fence or off it?

[Thor665]

Do you see MariaR, mhsmith, or Transcend as scum?
Because if Tenshii is town, that starts really restricting viable lynch options from your perspective.

[Thor665]

I am building the fence.

I'll help you paint it if you tell me what you think of Rosske/MariaF's slot!

[Thor665]

Also Transcend, who has expressed confusion between the value of a mod or lynch kill, and also indicated willingness to deadline lynch to avoid no lynch.
But, yes, we do need votes.

[Thor665]

We have two days and a replace that says they need 24 hours to provide reads. That is enough time to get a lynch, especially if Transcend, Maria, and mhsmith would actually put their votes in play.

[Thor665]

Considering we know for a fact it's not lylo, I have no idea why it has been so hard to get votes in play, it's silly.

[Thor665]

thor

i wouldn't have wanted to have the luna/wing/ira slot modkilled in this game because it would put us at one mislynch.

if there were 8 players alive today, the slot being modkilled would put us at 7 which isn't waste of a mislynch. it's just lol u got dunked.

That depends on if Mod ends the day on modkill.
Most mods do.
Do you know something I don't?

Considering we know for a fact it's not lylo, I have no idea why it has been so hard to get votes in play, it's silly.

like i said the majority of the game wants to lynch tenshii which has been my solid townread so like... i'm trying to fight that one. but i have said multiple times that i will vote tenshii if and only if it's tenshii or no lynch.

So...y'know, vote your top scumread and stop moving our vote randomly to make jokes and then unvoting?
It remains silly.

[Thor665]

Maybe I'm just fooling myself, all of my games are just starting to stress me out because of what people are doing.
I think the site changed and I didn't notice, or I magically ascended to a new plane of reality.
I'm guessing the former.

[Thor665]

So uh good news you guys might be seeing a less douche-baggy less tunnel-visiony me.

If that's how you describe your play, then you owe it to yourself as a person, and also to yourself as a player to change that playstyle regardless of how accurate it is or isn't.

Giga is still my hard tr and really good feeling on Transcend so just wanna get as much info as we can then i'll hammer

All the almost mechanical questions he asks doing nothing with them and the soft defending of scum was the 2 things that really annoyed me the most

He didn't soft defend him - he overt defended him, as did Transcend. Do you scum read Transcend for that?

[Thor665]

So defending them isn't actually scummy, or is something else Transcend did so towny to overcome it?

[Thor665]

Do you not think I could escape this as scum by doing the stuff I know you townread me for?

Which is...what, stuff you don't do as town?

but vca is going to be less useful because it's possible for scum to go on your wagon idk

transcend you fulfilled one requirement of being good town, and that's being easy to find

Town don't lynch giga/transcend tomorrow as my dying wish

Well I'd troll if I was hammered but you should know I'd never self hammer myself as scum I don't give up as mafia!

If that's true, why do you give up as town?

[Thor665]

I'm so glad we lynched Rosske and didn't use meta. Meta is bad, after all.

@Giga - why do you see mhsmith as more likely than Transcend for final scum?

[Thor665]

What did he flip again?
Did he flip scum and I didn't notice?
Don't be daft - the case on him was silly.

[Thor665]

Like, I almost want to lynch you so this game feels less like a Newbie.

[Thor665]

@Giga - why do you see mhsmith as more likely than Transcend for final scum?

Something about Transcend's "screw what everyone else wants, I'm doing me!" attitude and his strange choice in pushes in the early game just ping me as very town. It probably wouldn't hurt, though, to look into Transcend's scumgames again because that could just be more of a personality thing.

I would agree with that - have you read any of his scum games?

[Thor665]

Okay...

[Thor665]

I'm mostly just debating if I was left alive to push through Tenshii, or if I was left alive because Tenshii figures they can't afford to kill me.
The latter option requires bad logic on Tenshii's part - but that doesn't really remove it from my slate.

@Transcend - I'm debating agreeing with you that Tenshii is town.
I may want to lynch you and mhsmith in any random order that amuses me.

Why do you think mhsmith makes sense as a scumbuddy to Karnos moreson than you? He kind of had a reasonably timely push on the slot whilst you never did.

[Thor665]

@Wing Did you not read the whole 300 post? And IMO my unvote negotiation was a pretty sick play. Making it that much harder for Karnos to get lynched is sick. That effectively made it 7/8 to lynch Karnos. Add that I (thought I) made scum basically voteless and boom! I made a sick play.

And I don't see why they couldn't be this way as w/w

Stuff like this suggests Tenshii lacks the ability to properly value call interactions, which could lead to a bad kill choice decision being made.

@Tenshii - why are you so game on the idea that maybe I'm a wolf but that Giga isn't - how can you clear Giga but suspect me? I could see suspecting us both, and I could see clearing us both, but the half in and half out thing makes the stance look screwy. Whassup?

[Thor665]

@Tenshii - why are you so game on the idea that maybe I'm a wolf but that Giga isn't - how can you clear Giga but suspect me? I could see suspecting us both, and I could see clearing us both, but the half in and half out thing makes the stance look screwy. Whassup?

Well yeah I'm paranoid about Giga too. But I'm more certain about Giga being town

Well, obviously, you've voted me and not him.

But WHY?

That's what I asked you.
Apparently my actions can be a bus.
Why can't his?

[Thor665]

The reason mhsmith makes more sense is because I have my own POV and know I'm town. How am I supposed to answer that question?

With a reasoned case - there are enough people alive that going 'I'm town!' still doesn't qualify as a case.
You could, naturally, present evidence to show why you're town, as that is a way to maybe show that you're town and thus mhsmith is more likely scum.

I think that my flip will be helpful and you trust Tenshii because that is my dying townread so again, I'm openly welcome to rope on me.

So you're thinking your town reads are more accurate than your scumreads?

Most people psychologically would say answer B

Yeah, I'm one of them.

but karnos was clearly ailing and hard defending him like I did would mean that I'd have to survive 5 lynches with that attached to me. I don't know how I would've played this as wolf but personally, I feel like I would possibly softbus or ignore karnos if he was in deep Smurf as opposed to hard defending him. That was sincerely just an error on my behalf for using falsified meta hence why I've been reluctant to trust any meta this game, because it S***ed me day 1.

Well, first off, I'd note you using poor meta (which I disagreed with at the time and discussed with you) does not an anti-meta case make. Functionally we have had two meta debates in this game, and I was right both times. Maybe that is random chance, sure, or maybe you think meta sucks because you use it poorly.

Why do you think Karnos was "clearly ailing" my recollection is at the time you were defending him he didn't have too many votes on him. He had like three.
Isn't that the optimal time to defend a scumbuddy?

So what makes you feel better about tenshii exactly?

NKA.

[Thor665]

i don't think anyone is townier than tenshii btw

What the hell are you smoking to say this?

[Thor665]

Like, objectively both Giga and I are both more likely to be town than Tenshii.
Tenshii has pushed a grand total of one lynch this game, on a lurker slot, for the case of lurking, that flipped town.
Tenshii hard defended scum.

What the hell is with you and these nonsense reads?

[Thor665]

Clearly you do - but you barely explain them so it's hard to track.

You think that both Giga and I potentially bussed, but you can't see a world where Tenshii has faked what he's doing (which is a lot of pro scum play, objectively)

Yeah, there's a disconnect there.

[Thor665]

I can understand being paranoid enough to think scum could fake what Giga and I have done.
I have that with Giga myself, because I'm a paranoid bastich.

But to have that level of paranoia and then to firmly be convinced that there is no way scum could do what Tenshii has done?

That's just silly.

[Thor665]

Like, if you're town, I never want you to be on my team again ever.
Because that is so nonsensical.
You're just randomly making up reads and justifying them at that stage.

[Thor665]

Like, if I could be faking scum - I certainly could be able to do what Tenshii did.
And Giga has the newbie shield you invent, so that doesn't make sense either to ionly suspect me because I'mma experienced.

I feel like I'm discussing reads with a magic 8-ball.

[Thor665]

When you can't justify why you townread someone over two other players - yes, yes it does.

Or, feel free to explain why Giga and I might be faking our play more than Tenshii - I can always learn.

[Thor665]

Your answer is going to be "the feels!" you and I both know that.
And that's an 8 ball answer.

[Thor665]

It doesn't even make sense.

Two people can hard bus - maybe faking scum.
One person can hard defend and push mislynches - assured town.

Derpa-dee.

[Thor665]

Like, apparently the way I should have played as town, would have been to not lynch Karnos, and to advise lynching Rosske and PC as obv. scums.
Man, I really blow at playing town, I don't know how to do it.

[Thor665]

here you are saying that my reads are garbage but do you see me berating you for lynching killthestory when i said he was probably town?

I would happily compare accuracy of reads between us this game - also, I was at elast able to explain why I had the read on KTS.

it's kinda hurtful and it's hard to offend me, but having exerted enormous amounts of effort into this game and getting trashed like you did, it sorta hurts me and my character.

If you can't explain a read, when I'm explicitly describing why I think it's a garbage read - then maybe you need to hear exactly why your read is bad.
I note that you're complaining that I'm hurting your feels and *not* explaining how Giga and I could be faking a bus but Tenshii couldn't be faking...whatever it is you think is pro town that Tenshii has/is done/doing.
The fact you can't explain it at all?
That's what makes it garbage.

i also don't understand why you're apparently upset with me about the way i have my reads. tenshii's been my best townread and nothing including all the cases made against him, and all the wrong votes he pursued has changed my mind. i don't think you're scum either thor. i don't think giga's scum either. i've given my stance. don't agree with it? fine. but it is what it is.

I am upset about your reads because you feel like an anchor around my neck.
However you felt "carrying" Giga - I feel at least that - probably more.
You continue to fail to explain why Tenshii is town.
But you want me to respect the read.
Nah.

[Thor665]

Your "reasoning" is "gut" So yeah, I don't like it.
For starters, let's not insult reasoning and call that reasoning.

Why do you see Tenshii as more likely town than Giga or myself?
You've had that garbage read for days and I want to hear you justify it with something other than a Magic 8 Ball and claims of being a unique snowflake.

[Thor665]

Clearly not - you should repeat them in quick bullent points and highlight how they can't be faked like how Giga and I might have faked what we did.

[Thor665]

@Magic 8-Ball

You reversed your newb town Tenshii call.
Why are you presenting it again like it still means something? Are you reversing the reverse?

Also, apparently this read is based on your ability to accurately read newbs (a debatable factoid) and also has some issues since it is apparently debatable that Tenshii is a newb (though I agree she's hard presenting as such by doing nothing).

Finally, your read comes down to "Thor and Giga made some votes I find odd, while Tenshii feels honest" <-- hint: that's called gut.

[Thor665]

Went back and looked.
Still not really feeling mhsmith as scum - his move on Karnos went from a soft defense to a hardline issue in line with a discussion with Giga that was also soft, but it looks like he legit went back and read.
Why soft defend and then do that shift? Maybe a fakeout play, but doesn't seem particularly worth it.

Wanna lynch Tenshii or Transcend now.

[Thor665]

My read on Tenshii is still the same, now that I know he's had some experience.

So the newbie bit was meaningless the whole time.
That drops your case down to 'da feels' last I checked.

Okay Thor let's think of common things scum do to manipulate.

"hey you should vote this guy" is a very common one.

Tenshii DID NOT EVER tell anyone to vote his way. Tenshii did Tenshii's thing which included lots of vanity wagons that got little to no momentum. I feel Tenshii was using his vote to help him personally figure out scum. Unfortunately it resulted in a couple of mislynches and bad reads much like myself. But I'm smart enough to know town is capable of making such mistakes.

This is not a gut read honestly. The townread on Tenshii that is. That is a solid townread I've carried for about two months and nothing's changed from it.

Well, for starters, here's another thing scum do;

They lay low.
Tenshii - by only attacking a lurker and defending himself and his scumbuddy, played in a way to be generally unobtrusive while trying to prevent scum lynches.

Also, you're actually describing how you play.

Also, remember when you had issues with Giga's shift on KTS?
Why didn't you have issue with Tenshii's? She listed him as a middle of the road read, yet hopped on him in seconds when the wagon got rolling.

[Thor665]

I know you're gonna ignore me but here's some things I think make smith scum.

- Kcda's weird actions and skating around the karnos lynch.

How did what he do help scum?
I'll grant you "weird" but that doesn't make it scummy.

- mhsmith light voting karnos when Luna voted karnos as well and mhsmith was coming around her being scum.

He did not light vote him - he hard voted him.
How does this help scum if it was a light vote?

- mhsmith being a heavy advocate of KTS!rope d2 and then when KTS trolls twilight, he immediately dismisses it as town.

He did so *after* KTS claimed as town though.

- mhsmith discrediting my read on Rosske and laughing it off while simultaneously thinking he is a potential mafia candidate

Your read deserved discredit - I'll give you that his vote was bad though.

- mhsmith not ever really committing to a vote. He's bounced around quite a bit and he's been non-committal.

So have I - am I also scum?
I actually read fluidity of opinion as town - scum tend to get paranoid about changing their viewpoints, and only bad scum don't change reads as situations change.