Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

farside, what do you think of shadow?

[Fire Assassin]

MM may not have strong reads, but he definitely has strong opinions...

I agree with the part where there's no case on MM.

Multiple people have pointed out at scummy/suspicious things MM has said...what are you talking about that their is no case?

[Infinity 324]

What are those things exactly

[Fire Assassin]

I just quoted something they said a page ago, and called out bad reasoning, and suspicious thinking.
You can't pretend like you don't see it, you either aren't reading or just ignoring posts.

[Infinity 324]

Bad reasoning has already been established and certainly not a scumtell...

afaik mm always thought you were scum too so yeah

And that's the extent of your argument.

I want to know why you scumread mm on d1, otherwise you clearly just made up stuff today to justify your read where you had nothing to begin with.

[Fire Assassin]

Bad reasoning has already been established and certainly not a scumtell...

afaik mm always thought you were scum too so yeah

And that's the extent of your argument.

I want to know why you scumread mm on d1, otherwise you clearly just made up stuff today to justify your read where you had nothing to begin with.

You can read my ISO and see where I pointed out scum behavior from him.
Stop faking this dumbness. I was reading him scummy half way through day 1. What the fuck are you talking about.

He wasn't always reading me as scum either, he basically said he had a null then excused it as voting scum read, then said things that make it look like he is town reading me but still pushing me.

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: all your arguments from d1 for mm scum

I don't really like your reaction to that. It suggested to me you either knew or think I am town already but are suggesting me to be careful and are slightly buddying me.

I would say its scummy, but it could be just nothing. Though usually I have seen town react to this in very few limited ways some are annoyed by it and don't take it serious others take it at face value, but this is a different reaction. My gut says its scummy.

How am I exactly causing problems? My inactivity before? I wasn't into this game, I didn't know the mechanics worked for it and it didn't seem active enough to warrant my attention (which is messed up in its own way) but thats the past.

I have said I am going to be more active.

I feel like Fire only sees the game by "himself and the rest" given how he said lane was unresponsive while he hadn't answered to him, and yet (seeing as lane ninja'd me).

I don't like this for multiple reasons.
First off you suggest that I am not alligned when you say "himself" and then you call me not town but anything I have done not alignment indicative? I guess this refers to not liking me, but what does that have to do with me being "its in no way town"

You can't say that I seem like I see the game as just me and then everybody else and say I am not town. That doesn't make sense.
You saying I am third party? You saying I am town?

You basically said I am not group scum.
Why are there assumptions in this thread about Third parties if I may ask? is it based of just 11 players?

VOTE: The MM
This is the right lynch for the day folks. I can make a case if requested but most of their posts are very scummy in some way and have either bad reasoning or skewered priorities and they leak their knowledge that they have more information than the rest of us.

Its not just awkwardness and contradictions? I think you are missing the crux of my argument that they seem INFORMED.

What about mm's posts makes him look informed because I'm not seeing it. You pointed out a post where it looked like he knew you were town, why can't that just be him being naive?

His approach to me when I said I am probably scum.
His post after saying that "fire Assassin and then Everyone else" They weren't just awkward they seemed to be from the standpoint he knew I am not on anyones side.

You're telling me this is why you thought mm was scum?

[Fire Assassin]

Yes, would you like to dissect why I am wrong, or all you just going to dismiss the entire case without going into detail like you have been doing?

[Infinity 324]

You want a quote wall, you get a quote wall.

I don't really like your reaction to that. It suggested to me you either knew or think I am town already but are suggesting me to be careful and are slightly buddying me.

I would say its scummy, but it could be just nothing. Though usually I have seen town react to this in very few limited ways some are annoyed by it and don't take it serious others take it at face value, but this is a different reaction. My gut says its scummy.

You admit it's pretty weak, I agree

How am I exactly causing problems? My inactivity before? I wasn't into this game, I didn't know the mechanics worked for it and it didn't seem active enough to warrant my attention (which is messed up in its own way) but thats the past.

I have said I am going to be more active.

I feel like Fire only sees the game by "himself and the rest" given how he said lane was unresponsive while he hadn't answered to him, and yet (seeing as lane ninja'd me).

I don't like this for multiple reasons.
First off you suggest that I am not alligned when you say "himself" and then you call me not town but anything I have done not alignment indicative? I guess this refers to not liking me, but what does that have to do with me being "its in no way town"

You can't say that I seem like I see the game as just me and then everybody else and say I am not town. That doesn't make sense.
You saying I am third party? You saying I am town?

You basically said I am not group scum.
Why are there assumptions in this thread about Third parties if I may ask? is it based of just 11 players?

I'm pretty sure this isn't even what mm was saying, I think he's saying you aren't trying to cooperate and town would try to cooperate since most players are town or something like that. Don't agree with the reasoning, but in any case it's not a reason why he's scum.

Its not just awkwardness and contradictions? I think you are missing the crux of my argument that they seem INFORMED.

Yet you still have very little evidence to show that

What about mm's posts makes him look informed because I'm not seeing it. You pointed out a post where it looked like he knew you were town, why can't that just be him being naive?

His approach to me when I said I am probably scum.
His post after saying that "fire Assassin and then Everyone else" They weren't just awkward they seemed to be from the standpoint he knew I am not on anyones side.

This is basically your entire case, two posts that could easily come from town.

Your mm read is bullshit, you're trying and failing to fabricate actual reasons why he's scum.

[Fire Assassin]

Quote wall of saying "no evidence" (which evidence would be feedback of some sort or what?), You then state I have a case and that its bullshit and fabricated, and I don't have any reasons. WHat?

YOU SAID I HAD A CASE. YOU CAN SAY ITS A BAD CASE BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN ITS BULLSHIT?

I am so done with you.
Lynching MM today, shooting you tonight.
Yes, I have a gun.

You are dying.

[Infinity 324]

I suppose you could consider what you gave reasons, but they are nowhere near enough for a townie to be convinced that someone is scum.

[lane0168]

What are those things exactly

Are you joking infinity? People have been calling things that the mm does scummy pretty much constantly. Or at least I have. I'm surprised you forget continually acknowledging those things and calling them newbtown over and over and over and over again? And now you say there is no case on the mm? Just because your don't agree with the numerous points against the mm, doesn't mean there is no case.

Farside, I believe the mm is the proper lynch.

[lane0168]

You've convinced yourself you will never scum read the mm and you did that VERY early on in the game. When you started calling r everything newbtown.

[Infinity 324]

Alright you're going to have to say them again, I certainly haven't seen any good reason to scumread mm. It's possible I skimmed over them cause I really just didn't see it.

[Fire Assassin]

Alright you're going to have to say them again, I certainly haven't seen any good reason to scumread mm. It's possible I skimmed over them cause I really just didn't see it.

Don't bother to pretend to skim, you are dying tonight regardless.

[Infinity 324]

It's really not a good idea to kill me tonight.

[Fire Assassin]

It's really not a good idea to kill me tonight.

Shooting scum is always good idea.

[Shadow_step]

Infinity's illogical defense of MM, makes me wanna lynch MM even more.

@mod can you prod..uh yourself ?

[Wingback]

Going to start from the beginning with the knowledge that FA_Q2 and BBT are town. I think my scumread on FA_Q2 affected a few other reads and I need a fresh look. I realize this took very long. I wasn't feeling up to reading forty pages straight but I'm back in the game now. These are mostly my notes but I'd appreciate responses to any direct questions. This is half the game from pages one to twenty roughly to the point where I first replaced in. I'll do the remaining half tomorrow and then consolidate all my reads in another post.

I was "eww"-ing at Lane because money is not necessarily part of the town wincon.

Money buys power roles. Power roles in town hands gets us closer to winning. Wanting money is null. Are you arguing that town should try to win without PRs? I bring this up because your early attack on Lane feels opportunistic, and I want you to justify this position.

lane strikes me as the impulsive type. I don't get the feeling that his bet was part of a gambit, but it's something to still consider going forward.

While I agree that Lane is town, I have trouble following how you reached this conclusion. Is this from previous experience with Lane or just based off of his posts in thread? Can you point to specific posts or games that gave you this impression?

---

Nearly everything about Infinity's Post 63 reads town. The callout of MM's post as forced, agreeing with RedCoyote about Lane (I find Infinity's townread on Lane more natural than RedCoyote's because it fits with the rest of Infinity's posts and scumhunting style where he often tries to avoid the "obvious" traps and townreads people for what can be considered traditionally scummy moves), and his readslist at the end. I can see why he's scumreading MM, townreading Lane, has gut townreads on Persivul and MoI, but seems conflicted on RedCoyote.

---

I don't see lane's bet as scummy. That said, once we see the hands, I may feel differently.

How will seeing the hands affect your read on Lane? If you think he's impulsive and just making a splash, why does his hand matter? He could just be impulsively making a bluff (which is what I think actually happened).

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

The proper answer here is, "I would've called, but my hand was poor".

This is a fairly obvious answer so why ask the question in the first place? It does seem like you wanted to frame the issue in a way that portrayed MM as scum especially given you voted him. It reads like part of a case rather than a neutral question which doesn't match up to your later claim that you were just begging consideration for a point of view.

I rely a lot on meta...I liked 91 and 92, but 93 is weak at best. Another player I'll have to meta.

Did you follow up with this? If so, what games did you read and what is your analysis?

I called to break that, as I am quite confident in my hand.

This doesn't make sense. Others have pointed out that this doesn't make sense. If your plan was to stop scum from transferring money to each other, why not wait to see who called Lane's hand? You never answer this question and dance around the issue. For instance, in your response to Qubixes in Post 126, you go off on a tangent about how you wanted everyone else to spare their money. Why would you want that? You'd want scum to call. If town put their money in, you get it which is good since from your POV, you would know that you are town. It doesn't matter if you miscalculated the price of the abilities as it's more a question of scum revealing themselves by calling. Why didn't you wait for that to happen?

Going gung-ho is a bad idea. Who is going to follow if I just say "X is scum"? No one.

So, because you think no one is going to follow you if you just say "X is scum," you decided that a better way to get followed is to say "X is null with very, very slight scumpoints?" It sounds like you think you made a mistake having a readslist full of nulls, and now you are scrambling to explain it away.

---

Qubixes' followup in Post 139 reads town and is exactly the line I wanted to pursue and I also liked the original push in Post 98. I liked Infinity's Post 135, particularly the part about assuming that RedCoyote was townreading Lane and then backtracking/saying it's dependent on Lane's hand. Lane has been town in pretty much every post so far and I doubt I need to bring them all up and spell it out. I will point out that Post 183 nails all my issues with MM on the head.

---

I felt like mm has been rather open about his actions and stances and has definitely not tried to avoid engagement.

In what way was MM open about his actions and stances? I don't understand your townread on MM at all.

I don't consider money going to the hands of one townie bad per se

So you agree that money going into the hands of one townie isn't necessarily bad. I thought the entire reason you chose not to wait was because you didn't want townies to put their money in the pot and you just wanted to snag scum-Lane's money. This doesn't compute.

Thinking about it, why would scum voluntarily forfeit their money like that? If lane was scum, he'd have just screwed himself over, and massively.

Earlier you used this as a reason to call Lane scum when he was under pressure. Now that the wagon dissipated, you backtracked and you are calling him town.

---

Being afraid of the possibility of someone being scum because you don't know their scumplay (Post 187) seems like a town thought process from MM though. I've wondered that as town myself in some games.

---

I don't like the entirety of Something_Smart's Post 188. It looks like he's spraying everyone with questions without taking any sort of stances himself. Why ask infinity about his townread on Persivul? Are you scumreading one of them? The questions to several others are also oddly-phrased (asking people whether they understood others) and loaded which makes me uneasy. It's a mild suspicion mitigated by the fact that I think at least a part of that is playstyle-based. I'd be interested in seeing if there was any follow-up here and if so, what conclusions he drew.

---

As far as reads go, I don't really have legit reads. Infinity looks pretty town to me, but once again I don't wanna trust myself too much on him.

I find it hard to believe that the only "legit" read you have eight pages into the game is the guy that's defended you several times.

As previously stated, Persivul would rank as my top townread at this time. At this point, lane would be followed shortly thereafter.

Wait. Your initial read on Lane was that he was impulsive, but you took care to say that you weren't townreading him. You also said "

I don't see lane's bet as scummy. That said, once we see the hands, I may feel differently.

So, we saw the hands, lane had a terrible one, and your reaction is to upgrade him to second strongest townread? How did that happen?

About mm, I think he's been less careful (the inconsistencies people mention are an example of this) than noob scum would be

MM is one of my suspects and one thing I wanted to check on based on the newest posts that I've looked through was why you were townreading him. Nothing about his posts looked town (see this wall for some of my issues with his play), and I can't follow your townread here in the slightest. I understood why you were scumreading FA_Q2 and RedCoyote. I understand why you were townreading Lane and at some point, Qubixes because I've reached largely similar conclusions. This one read has been a complete mystery. Qubixes's Post 340 is a good case too and one of the reasons I have a townread on that slot.

I maintain, apparently to [MoI's] chagrin, that I don't find [MoI] particularly scummy at this time

Your read on MoI was actually pretty ambiguous. You said things like "

Your incriminatory rhetoric is not appreciated

" and "

I'm beginning to notice a pattern of you "forgetting" or "not paying attention" to events or activities that should would concern town-aligned players attempting to scumhunt honestly

" in Post 260 which suggest that you suspect him. What was your read on MoI based on all the posts he made and what's your read on Farside now? I'm still catching up so if you've already provided a read on Farside, you can disregard the second question.

---

Fire Assasin's posts on pages 18 and 19 point fairly strongly to town. The MM's Post 446 accusing Fire of "stirring things up" was terrible and looks like he was taking advantage of Fire's abrasive personality. While his reasons for scumreading MM are different from mine, his push reads genuine. His plan for gaming the system to bulletproof our strongest townread also comes from a town motivation since he's wanting it to be on my slot which I know is town, and not as an excuse to protect himself although I disagree with it for the reasons I laid out before.

---

If it's the former, that's really unhelpful (although almost certainly correct)

Infinity didn't include your biggest scumread at that time (MM) so why are you saying that his list of six scumreads is almost certainly correct?

You're the same player that expressed reservations about the MM wagon just a couple of days ago (see: 294 and 384).

This is a ridiculous stretch. I clicked those links expecting BBT to have taken some sort of stance on MM but after clicking on them, I see completely generic posts by BBT where he never mentioned MM at all. I suppose on some level you could interpret BBT naked voting infinity as him taking a stand against the leading wagon on MM but it seems much more likely that he's barely paying attention to the game. It reads like you are trying to find an excuse to push BBT. Also, the first link where he says "any chance of a real wagon developing" was posted when he was voting MM so I'm not following how this advances your argument that BBT was uncomfortable about an MM wagon and later opportunistically put him at L-1.

I've been wondering about an MM and RedCoyote team because those were my two scumreads independently but the early push on MM by RC made me lean towards them not being partnered together. However, this push away from MM alleviates those concerns and I don't think MM/RC are mutually exclusive. Post 497 definitely plays up his involvement in the MM wagon.

So, that's the end of page twenty which is about half the game. I'll stop here, pick up the other half tomorrow and then summarize my final reads in a more concise post. If you need anything elaborated on, let me know.

[farside22]

MM may not have strong reads, but he definitely has strong opinions...

I agree with the part where there's no case on MM.

No he doesn't.
His opponent ions are weak as shit.
"Fire is scum because he called me scum" "farside is scum because she scares me as scum"
Ignoring is one past game played on this site from you is horse shit.

[farside22]

farside, what do you think of shadow?

Non existent and in need of a replacement.

What are those things exactly

Are you joking infinity? People have been calling things that the mm does scummy pretty much constantly. Or at least I have. I'm surprised you forget continually acknowledging those things and calling them newbtown over and over and over and over again? And now you say there is no case on the mm? Just because your don't agree with the numerous points against the mm, doesn't mean there is no case.

Farside, I believe the mm is the proper lynch.

Most likely.
As I said I'm shaking at those I'm reading scummy currently.

While I'm thinking I had this moment last night where I was thinking about rc and wondered if he might be 3rd party.
Reading wingback views I may nix that but for now I'm staying onto infinty for a bit here.

[Wingback]

I haven't caught up but really quick since you are online, What's your read on RedCoyote?

[The MM]

I'm folding because I have no interest in tossing the little that remains of my money to the first lucjy guy, that's pretty much that. Antes will probably eat at the rest of my wallet like popcorn but it barely matters at this point.
Lynching me is exactly what scum want you to do; it's the reason they left me alive in the first place since I wasn't BP. Now consider why I was left alive.
Possibly seeing me and farside as scum is kinda dumb imo, considering I've said I'm kinda scared of scum!farside, maybe you were too busy drowning in your own made-up scumtells on me to notice.
Lynching me is wasting the Tracker shot. This is complete and utter town sabotage, since the Tracker shot isn't given to anyone. This entire plan is dumbnut.

No, no, no, no.
You can't explain why scum left you alive, you can let others speculate, but you can't say "I am a mislynch bait" that makes it all null. Self awareness of the situation can be more scummy than town, if you understand you are likely lynch target that isn't more scummy I don't think, but its definitely not points in your favor.
And we all wanted you to fold anyways, because you are a scum suspect, why would we want you to win?
Also, why are you attacking you and farside as alignment but not any of my others, why does that sound more ridiculous beyond "I am scared of scum farside!" cause that doesn't sound like a actual reason for you two not being aligned?
Then you call my scumtells "fake", listen if I am faking it, I am scum, right?
WHy do i get sense of you keep going back and forth between wanting to call me town and wanting to call me just hard scum but don't want to commit.

Oh, given what I know, I can take guesses as to why I'm still alive with Lane's money free for use, thank you very much Mr. NoonehastherighttothinkthingsIdont.
It's not "everyone". You and your cronies, a minority of vocal douchebags, wanted me to fold. Difference. I did it out of self-interest anyway. As for why I "should" have won, well do the words "Bulletproof Tracker" sound powerful enough for you?
Also, I was scared of scum!farside because you (as well as a bunch of other people) are just licking her feet and guess what? She's antagonizing me too. It's worth a scumread. Keep in mind, y'all were scumreading Magna, but now farside has replaced it's like she's town regardless of slot. Disgusting.
I don't exactly recall where I called your reads fake, but I think my scumread on you is set in stone. The more I tried to play like you're town, the more you make me scumread you. I read you as scum for life, and so until the game proves me wrong, but one thing's for sure, you won't.

Alright you're going to have to say them again, I certainly haven't seen any good reason to scumread mm. It's possible I skimmed over them cause I really just didn't see it.

Don't bother to pretend to skim, you are dying tonight regardless.

This sounds like something scum would say. Why would they kill Infinity? Oh yeah, to push for my mislynch some more, since Infinity's the only guy with the right idea on me.

It's really not a good idea to kill me tonight.

Shooting scum is always good idea.

Shooting scum? With what? You can't even. Now you're just being a retard.

MM may not have strong reads, but he definitely has strong opinions...
I agree with the part where there's no case on MM.

No he doesn't.
His opponent ions are weak as shit.
"Fire is scum because he called me scum" "farside is scum because she scares me as scum"
Ignoring is one past game played on this site from you is horse shit.

Discrediting me for my past game as town? Yeah right, great idea. This is bullshit. Scumflag for the pointless-ass shade casting.

[Fire Assassin]

Also, I was scared of scum!farside because you (as well as a bunch of other people) are just licking her feet and guess what? She's antagonizing me too. It's worth a scumread. Keep in mind, y'all were scumreading Magna, but now farside has replaced it's like she's town regardless of slot. Disgusting.
I don't exactly recall where I called your reads fake, but I think my scumread on you is set in stone. The more I tried to play like you're town, the more you make me scumread you. I read you as scum for life, and so until the game proves me wrong, but one thing's for sure, you won't.

Few things here:

1) When has anyone been licking Farside boots and
2) Where has anyone called her strong town? or even massively switched reads on the slot?
I know I have her as weak town at best right now and thats a recent development.

Your scumread is "set in stone"? Okay. Good work.

[Fire Assassin]

Shooting scum? With what? You can't even. Now you're just being a retard.

I am a vigilante. Do you think the only power roles town has are hte ones from these poker matches? Ha, thats funny.