Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Infinity's jump onto RedCoyote and then saying that we should lynch Shadow if he flips town is pretty bad.

I agree with this, but my position is biased. Take that how you will.

I really want to think Infinity is town here, just being mislead. It's outside of the realm of possibility that there are three scum in farside, Shadow and Infinity, so I cannot suggest this in good conscience. Frankly, I don't even want to suggest that both farside and Shadow are scum because that would be too easy. I think I'm probably wrong about one of them.

I also think odd-night cop with an innocent on the most universally townread player is a very convenient claim as scum.

Granted, but there's something to be said for the idea that you deliberately investigate the players that aren't being suspected and likely won't have a wagon on them in the foreseeable future. In that sense, it's not a bad investigation. I wouldn't have done it, but any player that gets successfully investigated and stays alive... isn't that ultimately a net positive for the town regardless?

The only people I'd say are town at this point are Lane and The MM. Never lynch them.

Mostly agreed. I'd be willing to stake the game on Wingback and lane being town here. I'm that confident in both of those reads. MM I would officially put in my town category at this point in time.

Who are your top scumreads irrespective of deadline? I'm well aware that there was an impending deadline and I don't blame you for voting Shadow in self-preservation. It's more the fact that I find your scumread on him very dubious and forced, not based on solid reasoning.

As I alluded to earlier, Shadow isn't a bad vote and actually would've been a better one to start off D2 in the sense that he would've been less "controversial" for me. I wasn't really enthused to vote farside when I did, but I think you and others are failing to understand that I had to do something, as town, to make my vote valuable. I voted farside to see who would join me, who would argue with me and who would ignore me. I had no real intention of making a big thing about it. Then farside seemingly kept stepping in it when SS asked her simple questions. Like the smart ass that I am, I was only more than happy to oblige him. Then she started to get really vicious, and I more or less checked out for 3-5 days in that time. And here we are.

farside and Shadow are deserved of the town's wrath at this point in time. I'm probably wrong about one of them as intuition and experience tells me that things don't usually end up being that simple, but I see no better alternative to visit. I do not think the Infinity/MM vs lane/Fire side-argument has been productive. This hasn't produced any new scumreads for me, nor has it really given me much towniness to go off of. I suspect there's at least one scum in the group of Fire/Infinity/SS/MM. I'm not sure at this time who that might be. If you're forcing me to pull a name, it would probably be SS, but I certainly am not confident in that and have no intention in going in that direction today.

I'd much rather vote Farside and worry about who she's bussing next phase. Anyone with me?

farside strikes me as backed into a corner, though she's less harsh than she was earlier, she's just a desperate to get her way. I don't get good vibes off of her, but I don't intend to make a meta play on her as she did to me. Indeed, I didn't even read what game she linked to earlier and I have no real intention to do that. I think we know each other fairly well. I do not underestimate her as either alignment.

I wish Nacho were here to mediate though.

---

RC voting shadow and not giving a clear stance on whether he thins he's scum is an example, though I don't have a problem with the survivalistic vote since he clearly admitted it.

I appreciate this comment, though I wish you would've responded to my 1308.

I'm not going to attempt to sell you on farside. As I said to Wingback, I don't think a farside lynch today is reasonable. Wingback has my support if he thinks he can swing it, but I think Shadow is more attainable and similarly scummy.

I do think Shadow has a good chance at flipping scum, btw. One thing I failed to add was that I see Shadow blindly following farside as a red flag. Shadow is acting very puppet-like. I look for that. I have scum and town reads, but I do not "proxy" my POV except under extreme circumstances. I don't see the atmosphere to do something like that this game, nor do I see Shadow's rationale for doing that. Does this position make sense?

^^ town

Why?

RC, can you point to an example of where you made this type of play as town?

Also, did you re-evaluate anything in particular after you made this post?

Nevermind. Hm, that spat just made the game much more interesting.

Also, do you think shadow is scum or not and why?

You mean my "I hate town" comment? I've made it a few times. Let me see if I can dig up some examples. In no particular order:

Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back
Open 456: Faith Plus One
Micro 61 -- Speedhunter's Scumthing
Mini 1671 - Eclipse Mafia
Micro 539: A Night on the Town

As you've aptly uncovered though, I have done it as scum in the game you mentioned. I wouldn't use it as an alignment tell. I just complain about it when the mood strikes me.

Re-evaluate? My farside vote was a reevaluation, as is my Shadow vote, frankly.

---

Fake AtE?

I don't know about AtE, but I do think his anger is fake. I don't know this player very well, but he doesn't strike me as the overly emotional type.

---

I'm genuinely pissed, give me one reason why you think it's okay for lane and rc to be voting me ?

You don't accept my rationale? You didn't respond to my latest post for you. I assumed you had an understanding. I don't expect you to like it, of course, but you should see it as valid.

Pretty sure RC jumped on my wagon for the money

lolwut

---

Well the example I have is Summer Waltz and how each player got together and reevaluated reads and bounced thoughts off of each other.

I was not in this game, so I have no idea what you're going on about. I'm in the process of trying to catch up. I'd appreciate you not trying to undermine me unfairly.

[RedCoyote]

Wingback, I'd like to continue exchanging with you before you cast your vote, if you're interested. I wish you'd have been in this game from the start as I think we'd have been much more on the same page than we are now. There's more to the MoI situation than can or should be discussed here that, in short, amounts to a lot of red herrings. I feel like you saw a lot of negative in those exchanges that are more or less misunderstandings that would've been better addressed at that specific time. I have a relatively extensive, but thoroughly complicated history specific to MoI (which is the case when you have two MS veterans usually, the same goes with myself and farside among many others) that was only briefly discussed when it came up. Given that he's gone, the history is really irrelevant to the game, so I hope you treat that whole chapter with a grain of salt.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: just being misled

[RedCoyote]

I'd also be happy to continue to exchange with Infinity as I have him as a townread at this point in time. If I can't sell him on either farside or Shadow, I'd like at least the opportunity to make him really suffer in his decision to vote me. I think he's discounting a lot of our positive D1 interactions in favor of farside's cheap tricks.

[Wingback]

@RedCoyote, what do you think of Qubixes? You said he was a townread but not a strong one and it seems like part of the reason you are voting Shadow is to avoid your own lynch. You also don't seem sure about Farside. So, I'm interested in hearing who your actual scumreads are when you take deadline and self-preservation out of the equation. In a vacuum, if you could lynch anyone at this point regardless of feasibility, who would it be? I want to know because it seems like you are using the lack of ability of drive a wagon as an excuse for not having actual solid reads.

Your positioning of one of Farside and Shadow being scum but not both is another issue I have. It would be easy as scum to push two mislynches if you set it up so that they are independent scumreads but not together. That way, after the first mislynch, you can go after your other "suspect" without much changes to your reads. This "one of them but not both" doesn't make sense to me since you earlier agreed that there is merit to my theory that they are partners. Farside is now actively pushing you as a counterwagon to Shadow which could re-inforce them both as partners if you found them individually scummy.

I think you are overstating Farside's "viciousness" to the point it's starting to seem manipulative. Nothing she did in the game so far was objectionable or unexpected so I have no idea where that's coming from. It's like you keep appeasing me saying that you are also scumreading her but keep backing out of actually stating that you think she's scum.

Regarding your interactions with MoI, it has nothing to do with your history and more to do with the fact that you never commit to a read on him or even try to read him. You discredit his posting but also townread him and it's confusing not being able to follow your read there overall. It doesn't matter that I wasn't in the game from the start, if you really want to go back and respond to my catchup, I'm happy to hear you out. More importantly though, I want to hear if you have any issues with Qubixes's posts (since you want his slot lynched) and your current reads if your survival wasn't at stake.

[RedCoyote]

@RedCoyote, what do you think of Qubixes? You said he was a townread but not a strong one and it seems like part of the reason you are voting Shadow is to avoid your own lynch. You also don't seem sure about Farside.

As I've stated before, I had both of these players down as townreads on D1. It pains me to have to move away from that. I understand reads can change, but, at the time I voted farside, I wasn't really happy with that vote. One thing about their attack of me is fair: That vote was not "earned". Of course, you don't say this, but you have to push forward in spite of that. At this juncture, however, I'm glad that I did it as I think it brought to light that farside that was much more scummy than MoI and a Shadow that was much more scummy than Q.

Q was a player of few, but important and townie-sounding, words. I can trace this back in my history, if you'd like, but I generally had a positive impression of him, though I wish he'd have participated more.

So, I'm interested in hearing who your actual scumreads are when you take deadline and self-preservation out of the equation. In a vacuum, if you could lynch anyone at this point regardless of feasibility, who would it be?

It would be farside.

I want to know because it seems like you are using the lack of ability of drive a wagon as an excuse for not having actual solid reads.

Somewhat unfair of you, but I appreciate the honesty. I think I'm being very open about why I'm voting Shadow. You constantly bringing it back up won't change my answer. If you think my intentions aren't pure, you have a remedy for that.

Your positioning of one of Farside and Shadow being scum but not both is another issue I have. It would be easy as scum to push two mislynches if you set it up so that they are independent scumreads but not together. That way, after the first mislynch, you can go after your other "suspect" without much changes to your reads. This "one of them but not both" doesn't make sense to me since you earlier agreed that there is merit to my theory that they are partners. Farside is now actively pushing you as a counterwagon to Shadow which could re-inforce them both as partners if you found them individually scummy.

I think you are failing to grasp the subtlety of what I'm saying here, but perhaps I'm being too resigned again. I see it as naive to act like I think that farside and Shadow are partners that are openly cooperating in such a way. I almost want to act conciliatory to you, because I don't think you're budging on this point despite not being convinced of Shadow's scumminess, but that would be dishonest of me.

Don't misunderstand. The case can be made that they're partners. It's not inconceivable. I just don't think it's likely and I think I would come across as more fake-sounding if I pretended as though I thought that. Not to get WIFOMy, but, you know, if I was scum, sure, I'd just take whatever theory that bode well for me, "The two players voting me seem to be both scum!"

I think you are overstating Farside's "viciousness" to the point it's starting to seem manipulative. Nothing she did in the game so far was objectionable or unexpected so I have no idea where that's coming from. It's like you keep appeasing me saying that you are also scumreading her but keep backing out of actually stating that you think she's scum.

Her "blacklisting" comment was very upsetting to me. I think it was uncalled for and out of character for her. I've been trying to not make a big deal out of it because I don't want to get overly personal nor let it unduly influence my read of her, but I still need to allude to the fact that her attacks were overstepping, I think. It's decidedly not an attempt to sway you.

Regarding your interactions with MoI, it has nothing to do with your history and more to do with the fact that you never commit to a read on him or even try to read him. You discredit his posting but also townread him and it's confusing not being able to follow your read there overall. It doesn't matter that I wasn't in the game from the start, if you really want to go back and respond to my catchup, I'm happy to hear you out. More importantly though, I want to hear if you have any issues with Qubixes's posts (since you want his slot lynched) and your current reads if your survival wasn't at stake.

Without looking back, I may be misremembering how big of a deal it played on your catchup. It's not really a big thing is the only point I'm trying to make. Look, the short of it is, I expected him to scumread me and that expectation ultimately led to a townread on the roleslot. That kind of conclusion is controversial and needed to be elaborated on.

In any event, I will go back over Q's posts as you seem particularly insistent upon it. I think it's a little unnecessary, honestly, as he's not in this game anymore and I read them at the time he made them, but it's my duty to fight for my alignment nonetheless.

[RedCoyote]

Since Q only had 19 posts, I'll just go over them all.

Spoiler: Q's posts with commentary

Fold

VOTE: BBT

Still unhappy you got me lynched last time!

RVS, nothing of note.

1- Even scum wouldn't give away monies at random, the only way that it makes any amount of sense is scum trying to give away their monies to a scumpartner with a good hand, to get this perk out ASAP.

I called to break that, as I am quite confident in my hand.

But here's the kicker: for any townie, doing that is betting blind. It's like how I play poker at home, all-in first hand and get ready to lol. I didn't win an online tour for my stepfather by all-ining, I did it by eating a few dumb all-ins with good hands. Luck played its part.
2- That's certainly a scummy move, though my scumread on you is soft at best. I've been pushing it for several other reasons though.
3 - Scum wouldn't, unless they're trying to bank on town being unwilling to risk too much to move the money to one scum so they can get those juicy 1250$ abilities.
PS - Bluffing is useless if you don't have any semblance of cred (like a hand won or two).

And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

I don't understand the bolded part. If you thought scum might do that, then why not wait until the partner shows up and calls? (And take both of their money.)

There will be a showdown, right? That might give us some clues as to what happened. If one of the two shows a very premium hand, it's at least unlikely that they are a team.

I like this post. This conclusion is accurate, and led me to my early suspicions of MM. I anticipated the mechanic would be used as more of a scumhunting tool, a delicate tool, if you will, while MM seemed to see it more literally as a game mechanic, a sledgehammer. In any event, I appreciate that Q snipped this little comment out of MM's wall as I had missed it.

For what it's worth, this whole thing still leaves an inkling of doubt in my mind about MM's towniness. I don't know if I can be sold on him as obvious town the way you are.

MM has decent analysis, but nothing that can't be faked by scum, and he doesn't actually use it to take very many stances. (By the way, my page 1 reads list was random gut reads and to see how people would react.)

Did you get any reads from it?

Good question of Infinity, but it was unfortunately never really followed up on.

@The MM

I don't think the problem with the readlist is the number of null reads (at least to me). But why put them out that early?

I tried to find out by looking through your earlier games. I only found one, where you replaced in. That is correct?

Fair post. He continues to push MM and ask him questions. He could've moved his vote at this point, however.

@infinity: I would like him to answer my questions first. Haven't looked too deeply into anyone else yet.

Well, MM responded to your list in his read list. What did you think about the response?

Nothing to comment on here.

There will be a showdown, right? That might give us some clues as to what happened. If one of the two shows a very premium hand, it's at least unlikely that they are a team.

How do you come to this conclusion – frankly it is the opposite that makes more sense given Pre-Game talk possibilities.

I would think they would try to get more money in the pot. An all-in like Lane did achieves the opposite.

This is another good point and a town-sounding post. I took Q's position over MoI's in part for this reason.

Even scum wouldn't give away monies at random, the only way that it makes any amount of sense is scum trying to give away their monies to a scumpartner with a good hand, to get this perk out ASAP.

I called to break that, as I am quite confident in my hand.

But here's the kicker: for any townie, doing that is betting blind.[...]

I don't understand the bolded part. If you thought scum might do that, then why not wait until the partner shows up and calls? (And take both of their money.) [...]

I agree that it was a little bit early, but I miscalculated and thought that simply eating one guy's monies would hand me enough to hit a Governor or Vengeful. And frankly, this doubles as a message in retrospect, since I announced my confidence in our hand, it's asking everyone to just go ahead and spare their monies and avoid some humiliation.

I do agree with lane here that it feels like you are making up excuses. One of the underlying reasons I asked about the sentence specifically, is because it suggests that you were trying to prevent a scum plan. That could have been true. But now instead you claim that you were actually thinking about getting enough money to get the most expensive item in the shop. Did you consider that it is quite bad for a townie to have a lot of money/abilities compared to the others? Because scum don't have that particular problem.

This sounds like such, but my bet was short-sighted and I recognize it. I was kinda between "oh look some guy's all-in'ing and I'm sure to eat him let's f*ckin do this" and "some dumbnut's bluffing is killing the gimmick, let's stop this rite now" in my head.
I was sure to only need to take one guy's money because of my own habits when I create such game systems, which is basically me screwing myself over, but whatever. I sure hope Kappy folds, at least this entire thing will have harmed the least people possible and I still get 1k$ until some people decide it's a great idea to lynch me.

UNVOTE: lane, by the way, that's useless to keep it there.

Why was it short-sighted according to you? Because you didn't wait for the potential scum partner to show up? Or because you miscalculated the shop prizes? Or both?

Also, why is it useless to keep your vote there? He is the only NULL (+scum) read in you read list. Did it change?

I will wait for the hands to be revealed, but I feel like you are playing from a scum perspective. The admissions of trying to look town, being rash with your bets don't make me feel better either.

This is another town-sounding post as he continues to pressure MM. I don't think there was anything here that really caught my attention other than I appreciated him continuing to push MM. I think there would've been other players to comment on at this point. Now him not moving his vote is starting to become a problem, especially since BBT is basically checked out of the early part of this game. His vote is languishing.

I would think they would try to get more money in the pot. An all-in like Lane did achieves the opposite.

I disagree. Consolidating two (or more, but that doesn’t look like it is happening) players full starting $500 plus the remaining antes plus any other stray bets is most likely to get the most money into one player’s hands after a single round.

Right now the pot is $1,170. It could even rise to over $1,500 if kappy calls.

To get more money into the post than the $1,170 with the initial $55 in ante requires every player to bet at at a minimum just over $101 per hand. Given the voting pattern we know happened (Quib and Something Smart both folded to a simply $50 bet and Pers folded to a $100 bet) it is very unlikely a non-All-in play generates more money than what happened with Lane’s All-in.

This being said – does this change your opinion?

They could just keep raising (small), right? So 50, 100, 150, 200, etc. Then all-in when almost everyone is out of the pot. Though to be fair, it would look rather suspicious. I could see going all-in quickly to get it over with as a possible scum plan. It also depends on what the scum team deems suspicious. If the scum team didn't care at all what is suspicious, they could raise to 490 and not show their hands that way... But obviously that would be way too suspicious.

At the moment I don't think lane and MM are team mates with their interaction outside the poker mini-game. And if they're not, I think lane is more likely than not town (if he has the bad hand he says he has), because I don't think scum would take that big of a risk with a bad hand, unless they have a partner with a very strong hand to back it up.

More MM talk. Nothing I disagree with here, but he's engaging someone else (MoI). This is good. I do not think lane-MM make sense as a partnership. I don't know if Q was the first one to bring this up, but I think that still.

VOTE: MM

Care to explain?

Fold

Nothing to comment on. He doesn't follow up on the BBT question, again.

@lane: Yes, I agree with the fact that his quick call isn't scummy, but his productivity in creating reasons is.

I don't agree with Infity's assessment that he is noobtown, because he isn't trying to avoid engagements. I mean, he hasn't avoided them, but on the other hand it was also hard to avoid given the amount of pressure that was exerted on him, i.e. it's mainly defense (even his read list).

I think it's possible he is nervous noobtown, but I'm not convinced yet. Either way, I feel like I have drilled the point enough, and I should start rereading (him and others).

Here he concedes to the newbtown argument that was being brought up in MM's defense. This is a fair post. He says he'll start, "rereading", though he never does this or never posts about it.

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.

I am [a noobie]. This is my second game with people who actually know how to play. What makes you say I'm not?

Choose? Why draw the newbie card, when you consider yourself at least not bad?

VOTE: The MM

He finally changes his vote, which is good, and I also agree very much with his argument here. I do think MM was too heavy-handed with the newbcard, and I said this myself.

@MoI: Ref: 203

Why do you think MM is less likely to be scum here given the hand? He would have a no-brainer regardless of his alignment? You also said that a strong hand by MM would make it more likely that lane and MM are a team. Why did you (seemingly) abandon this line of thinking?

Also, I think you underrepresented the arguments against MM, so it looks weaker than it is. Did you do that on purpose? What is your read on MM?

More MM talk with MoI. It's beginning to become clear that Q is all MM all the time. This is not great as there were certainly other things going on now.

If I was scum and had day talk... And I planned a scum money dump, how do you think that would actually go? What would be the actual plan?

First of all I wouldn't do the plan if we didn't have better than a pair. And I would've been aware of jokers so a pair doesn't mean much. You can figure this out by saying I have a bad, meh, good, very good, probably unbeatable hand.

2 options to start. Either the one with the good hand goes all in, and the shit hand calls. Or the bad hand goes all in and the good hand calls.

To me, it makes sense for the good hand to go all in first. Then if town calls and there's a chance they have a better hand, the bad hand can save its money. That obviously didn't happen.

So now if the bad hand goes all in, and even if a town calls, the good hand would still go all in, because it would've been decided its a very good hand that probably wouldn't get beat.

Considering there was only one call, the only option here is me and mm.

That's no way we would do that plan unless we were very confident we wouldn't be throwing money away. Cause that'd be dumber than town going all in on a bluff.

I think there is one big problem with a good hand going all-in first. The hands are shown and calling all-in with a bad hand is very suspicious.

A lot of people liked this post. I also thought it was a good point. Looking at Q in ISO, however, I'm beginning to see a tunnel. Tunnels aren't helpful. They can come from scum or town, but they're generally anti-town. You don't want to be pidgeonholed into being "the anti-MM guy". You need to have more diversity than that. This is another reason why Q left so little impression upon me. Contrast this with someone like, say, SS. SS has a much wider array of posts that engage multiple people about multiple subjects.

@Magna:

In my opinion these are the most important points of the MM case. Why do you think my hop was suspect?

[Plan about scum giving each other money.] I called

to

break that [..]

Here he basically tells us that he tried to do something good for town by calling, through breaking scum's plan. The word "to" is the important bit, if he said "I called and I broke that" for example, it would be a different thing. His response wasn't very convincing, giving all sorts of reasons why he called, and saying that I/we are reading too much into it. It just seems to me he tried to look like a white knight fighting for the good of town.

The bad part of MM’s full readslist is not that it is not strong. I don’t expect that on Page 4. Why it may be an example of scum play is it appeared right after MM had drawn a couple votes (Infinity and Lane) and has the feel of “Have to post content to look Town before a wagon develops”.

That was the plan in a shellnut, though you put it to parody levels. But wanting to look as Town as possible is not limited to scum.

Admitting to try and look town because of pressure. Admitting it doesn't really make it better in my opinion.

And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

In the first quote he tells people to keep in mind that he might be playing bad, because it is only his second game etc. So, he is pre-emptively defending himself with the newbie/being bad card. Then in the second quote he says that he wouldn't be so bad and transparent as scum. I think he's using both sides of the argument here. Below I have added the response to my poking:

Because I am a newbie. But you're confusing "newbie" with "bad. I'm bad only relatively to you, maybe, because I'm not good at reading people.

@MM: I can't really follow the logic. [Mafia scum Pro's ---- you ------ Mafia scum newbies ------ everyone else] Like that from good to bad?

More MM attacks. Nothing really bad here though, just one note.

@Persivul: I already folded

Nothing to comment on.

This is in my opinion you stretching to classify something as scummy. The whole notion of “to” being a huge difference maker between scum and Town motivation is pretty poorly thought out given that written English can convey the same notion in many different ways. I’d classify the whole point as nitpicking looking for reasons as opposed to actually looking for scum intent.

Since the last bit of your post is basically a LAMIST attack – what do you think of Red Coyote’s similar “I don’t make mistakes so you should see me as Town” posting?

I'm not a native English speaker, so I could be wrong there. It seemed others had the same interpretation as well though. Either way, if he had just cleared it up at that point that would be fine in my opinion. But it kind of swerved all over the place for reasons why he called.

The bit you quote is about looking up the prices of the abilities, right? I agree that it looks a bit weird, i.e. could be scummy. I thought your argument at the start was stretching it quite a bit, and RC's defenses looked sound to me. The part about the meta between you was really weird and I don't know what to make of it. I haven't caught up yet though.

Admitting to try and look town because of pressure. Admitting it doesn't really make it better in my opinion.

Also very weak as Town also try to look Town also. You are taking something that is at worst a Null statement and only prescribing scum intent to it. Note that I commented on his initial post and this is his response which I thought was pretty reasonable Town.

Not sure what you mean with "at worst Null"? You think it's either towny or null? In my opinion scum are more motivated to put out a readlist like that to look like town. Town look town by trying to scumhunt. Scum don't want to do that (obviously), so they have to resort to things that look towny but don't further the town's goals. I mean, he wasn't in immediate danger of getting lynched at all. If I remember correctly you were also suspicious initially because of the readlist, so it looks like you also didn't like it either. You liked his response, I didn't.

Bad and scummy are not synonymous. Frankly I can point to at least one other player in this thread whose shtick is to play purposefully bad for whatever reason. That doesn’t mean they are always scum. Which is unfortunate because I want to lynch said player every time for being a worthless pile of junk. As to your “he’s wanting both sides of the coin” – meh … I don’t find that compelling. If he was trying for Newbie shield while simultaneously attacking someone else for trying to claim Newbie status I would find that suspect. This … not so much.

Not sure why you're saying bad != scummy? I never claimed it to be. I'm not saying MM is playing badly.

So if these are the tentpoles of your case I can’t say that I find it vote-worthy.

If you think MM is scum who is his partner? Is Lane also scum?

So you don't find the case compelling. That's fine. And yes, he could be town and say these things. You are right about that. Still think you undersold the case though. At the moment I don't think Lane is partnered with MM. I also think it would be a little bold of you to defend a scum buddy like that, but not impossible. Not really looking for buddies at the moment. I think it's a little too early for that.

I should probably catch up, and then cast my vote again (or not).

UNVOTE: The MM

A good post here as he starts to break out of his sole-MM focus and expand elsewhere. He was talking about MoI in regards to me, but at the end of the post he unvotes MM and shows signs of wanting to branch out elsewhere in the game. Good overall post here.

fold

Unfortunately, I don't have enough time for this game. Sorry .

@mod: requesting replacement

Nothing to comment on.

Overall, a fair player with a few good, reasonable points against MM early on. Aside from that, we really have nothing else. Because I agreed with his MM case, I was inclined to see him as a weak townread. Had I not agreed with him, I could've easily seen him as a weak scumread. He didn't take the time to move beyond a few points. Was he intimidated about sticking his head out too far, or did he just really see MM as scum? I don't think his replacing out is AI, but he doesn't give us much to go on.

[Infinity 324]

I wish you would've responded to my 1308.

There not much I have to say other than the shadow thing. It's more what isn't there than what is there.

I do think Shadow has a good chance at flipping scum, btw. One thing I failed to add was that I see Shadow blindly following farside as a red flag. Shadow is acting very puppet-like. I look for that. I have scum and town reads, but I do not "proxy" my POV except under extreme circumstances. I don't see the atmosphere to do something like that this game, nor do I see Shadow's rationale for doing that. Does this position make sense?

O...k

I think the natural town thing to do was to give what you thought about shadow when you voted him, even if you voted him just to save yourself.

^^ town

Why?

Ugh do I have to explain every time I think a post is town?

I don't think it's something that scum would think to fake, that's it.

RC, can you point to an example of where you made this type of play as town?

You mean my "I hate town" comment?

No, I meant where you openly admit something you do that's scummy (e.g. when you called your vote on shadow "opportunistic").

Re-evaluate? My farside vote was a reevaluation, as is my Shadow vote, frankly.

I mean after where I and fire claimed. You said it made the game more "interesting", did it change any opinions of yours?

[Wingback]

You' saying Farside is your biggest scumread doesn't track with your earlier comment in Post 1302 that Shadow_step was the better vote.

On qubixes, he was actually very tunnely in the game I played with him as town. In his scumgame that I glanced through, he had a fairly wide focus on all the players. So, I think that's at worst null. At best, a towntell for him. I'm wondering whether the replacement is alignment-indicative though. He didn't replace out of Mini 1800 which was running concurrently at the same time and he was town there. But it's not a strong point.

I have to leave in 20 minutes so I'll vote before then but still leaning RedCoyote. I'll be back before deadline I think.

[Wingback]

Also, the "tunnely" tell for Qubixes seems like you ripped it off of MoI's departing post (Post 462).

[RedCoyote]

It's more what isn't there than what is there.

I don't think it's something that scum would think to fake, that's it.

Sometimes I think you care about this game and sometimes I think you don't.

I think the natural town thing to do was to give what you thought about shadow when you voted him, even if you voted him just to save yourself.

Which is what I did. You acknowledge this, correct?

No, I meant where you openly admit something you do that's scummy (e.g. when you called your vote on shadow "opportunistic").

That's impossibly vague. Yes, I do.

You said it made the game more "interesting", did it change any opinions of yours?

No.

[RedCoyote]

You' saying Farside is your biggest scumread doesn't track with your earlier comment in Post 1302 that Shadow_step was the better vote.

You're misunderstanding me, and that's specifically why I used quotation marks around the word better. This statement, and the previous post, reads much more like you're trying to catch me than you're trying to have an open dialogue with me. I'll concede that I may be overestimating my ability to express myself clearly, however. Without face-to-face interaction, communication is difficult.

Shadow is the "better" vote in the sense that it is a more rational one at that specific time. With current circumstances factored in, it is objectively better...

...

...

...

I fear this isn't working out. I do appreciate having the chance to play with you though. I hope you decide to vote Shadow. If not, I'll see y'all in the post game. Good luck.

[Infinity 324]

It's more what isn't there than what is there.

I don't think it's something that scum would think to fake, that's it.

Sometimes I think you care about this game and sometimes I think you don't.

Dude, I gave my opinion, that's all I can explain. You don't seem to be taking very many solid stances on the game, and meta indicates that you do that as scum more so than town. The farside post is a gut thing, I can't explain it any more than I did.

Which is what I did. You acknowledge this, correct?

But what you said doesn't really tell me what you think about shadow's alignment...

UNVOTE: farside22; VOTE: Shadow_Step

This is mostly an opportunistic vote, but it's also kind of a "better" vote than farside as I forgot that q was on my townie side yesterday, but not really a huge townread. In that sense, I would be more willing to see him go than someone I'm much more confident about like a SS or a lane or a FA.

Let me see if there's anything worth responding to.

I also think that town would've at least tried to re-evaluate some things after the claims, you just called it "interesting" and didn't really say anything about it after that. This is another example where I would've expected you to take a stance on something.

[RedCoyote]

Also, I dislike how this conversation turned out.

RC - "I'm voting Shadow because it's better for me opportunistically. I probably should've voted Shadow at the beginning of D2 instead of farside as it would've made more sense given the rationale for my vote."
WB - "Why not continue voting farside when I have shown dislike toward her?"
RC - "I don't think it's going to succeed, and I have to be concerned about the wagon on me."
WB - "Okay, but, circumstances aside, would you vote farside?"
RC - "Yes."
WB - "Ah ha. So you are a liar."
RC - ":/"

[Wingback]

I did misunderstand the "better" in quotes. Not trying to "catch" you in anything. If I can get you to towntell, that would be just as great an outcome. I think deciding who to lynch between you and Shadow has been a pretty tough decision and I'm trying my best to figure out where I should put my vote. Even if I'm wrong, the additional content would be useful later on in the game.

I need to leave but I'll hold off voting for a couple of hours until I'm back. I'll definitely be back before deadline so that shouldn't be an issue. Hopefully, at least one player on each wagon is also online to ensure we don't have a no lynch.

[Wingback]

The intense ATE sounds very similar tonally to RedCoyote's ISO in this scumgame that I went through. (Infinity's sig doesn't apply here, funnily enough)

VOTE: RedCoyote

I'm leaving so I'd rather put my vote down now so people have the chance to switch.

Lane and MM are townreads. I can see RedCoyote/Fire or Infinity/Shadow potential scumteams. While I don't suspect Farside and Something_smart as much now, if I die tonight, the safe play would be to re-read both of them in light of flips and don't give anyone a free pass.

[Wingback]

redcoyote(4): farside, shadow step, infinity, Wingback
shadow step(4): lane, something smart, Red coyote, fire assassin
Fire Assassin: MM
Countdown in (expired on 2016-07-27 01:22:00)

Someone needs to switch.

[farside22]

ow is any of this town?
You vote who you think is scum and not which wagon is most likely to go through, especially when there is NP case on them.

If this is town we deserve to lose. I can't be arsed anymore.

VOTE: Shadow Step
I don't like the AtE used here, I think its completely out of place and fake.

VOTE: shadow

Let's do this Farside, I didn't think rc is scum, and the mm, well I guess we'll give that spot the benefit of the doubt for now

Hmm I also think there's one scum in <Shadow_step, Infinity>. I want to scumread them both but they make no sense as partners.

Also, Shadow seemed to imply that he knew that there were 3 scum, and there being 3 scum makes Infinity's claim more believable.

I'm just going to point out the players that voted for Shadow and the reason they had.
This does not include RC survivalistic vote.
Someone tell me why there is a wagon with so little stated for a case?

That is my final comment for the day with in regards to this.

I noted RC had a few things said, I thought, do I have time to read through this and really I don't. It's 10pm where I am and I have to get to work in the AM.

But those voting for Shadow for the reason they are is a load of crap and you can't pay me enough to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: RedCoyote
I'm okay with this. But I think if it flips town we should be looking hard at farside.

[farside22]

I'm fine with that.

[Infinity 324]

smart how likely do you think this will be a scum flip

[Something_Smart]

Hmm... 65%?

[Infinity 324]

Ok, do you think RC and shadow could've been cross-bussing? Cause I don't see it

[Something_Smart]

I could see it. Especially if they have a third partner.

[Infinity 324]

I think they would be trying to push a CW like farside if that was the case. Or me.