Mini 1821 Badass Women U-Pick Mafia - game over

[pieguyn]

VOTE: ARIS

[pieguyn]

yep, yep. Aris has already accepted it ~

[pieguyn]

VOTE: pie

<3~

hai~

[pieguyn]

First off, I'm not interested in ordinary people. But, if any of you are aliens, time-travelers, or espers, please come see me. That is all!

you have got to be kidding me.

HOW???

[pieguyn]

Are you an alien, esper or time traveller?

Hmm, you DO remind me of Nagato~

I am sitting here staring in sheer disbelief that the person I'm supposed to be observing somehow actually showed up here.

[pieguyn]

I think I might just have to.

[pieguyn]

vote: kraska

[pieguyn]

FTR, what me and LLD did had nothing to do with our roles (or at least I didn't and I'm mostly sure LLD didn't either). I don't really know why everyone is getting that impression.

[pieguyn]

I think yume and karaska are probs town, Yume for the soft and Kraska because #51

I agree on Yume, not on kraska. what about 51 are you reading as town?

[pieguyn]

I'm more reading her general indignation surrounding the claim as town as opposed to the actual claim. it's incredibly dumb, but I think it's more town than not.

[pieguyn]

Okay then >.>

here's a question: if you thought me/LLD's exchange on page 1 was based around our flavor (it was), why do you even think it's alignment relevant?

[pieguyn]

Spo pie is Yuki and LLD is Haruhi.

why did you have to go and ruin our fun?

[pieguyn]

Yeah that's not what I misunderstood
In that case, @pie why do you think Yume doing what she did was "incredibly dumb"

the claim itself wasn't, her raising a bunch of hell because "if Cerberus did it in a previous game why can't I" and relating what me/LLD did to what she did was.

[pieguyn]

Eh you're kinda exaggerating with the "raising hell" part
She got a little defensive
I don't see why you were quick to label her as town for a little defensiveness
her reaction can be easily faked

1. I have seen a game where Yume has done basically this exact thing as town, though I can't link it for alt-related reasons.
2. the reaction read to me as coming from a POV of "claiming ascetic first post is the correct theory play and if you have an issue with it take it up with everyone else who did it ever", not "I think I should be allowed to get away with this because someone else did it". that isn't "a little defensive", that's her making what she thought was a correct play and flipping out because she didn't understand why she was called out for doing it; it would not have been necessary for her to focus on it as much as she did as scum.

I don't have the slightest clue why you're attempting to nitpick over this, and I would like to know what your "better reasons" for town reading Yume are (if it's just due to her claim, then lol).

[pieguyn]

You flavor roleplayed, I flavor roleplayed. So explain to me how what I did and what you did isn't the same thing.

I think apart from kraska, people mostly took issue with you claiming ascetic, not you flavor roleplaying. you were correct to claim it in your first post, but you should stop making a big deal over it, just ignore it and move on.

[pieguyn]

my issue with kraska's posting is that it's just all off. her reaction to me was to pick apart my Yume town read in really fine detail, despite the fact that she has the same town read on her, then when it comes to LLD's push she made no effort to understand it whatsoever and basically just handwaved it with those "I WILL END YOU" posts. the town read on LLD is shallow and reads more like appeasement.

her reaction to Yume was overblown and something I expect when you have to deal with someone for an extended period of time and don't know what else you can say besides "shut up and stop posting", not as a kneejerk reaction to being voted.

Luna/beegirl, why are you town reading her?

[pieguyn]

I don't have much. I am watching to see how pie/lld play out and the weird dialogue around that. I am taking note of yume claiming ascetic. mostly I feel like pple are jumping at shadows.

if you're expecting more than what's already happened, you'll be disappointed. all it was was just us messing around with our flavor.

can you explain your Luna read in more depth?

[pieguyn]

actually, now that I look at it again, mollie is someone else who I dislike kraska's reaction to. if you think someone is pushing you in a disingenuous way, you would usually have more conviction than just a "heh, might as well" vote.

I don't town read her for asking mollie for content, given it was mostly prompted by mollie pushing her.

[pieguyn]

Aris, do you have any reads?

[pieguyn]

I don't take issue with Skybird's posts and I don't know if I agree with Nahdia's interpretation of her posts to kraska, though I'll wait for her to explain first.

kraska's 173 does a very good job of not actually addressing anything I wrote and I will explain why in a separate post.

[pieguyn]

@pie
it's just a matter of differing styles then.
i dont really get fazed by pushes from others, so no it's not appeasement when i ignore people pushing me.

my issue about your reaction to LLD has nothing to do with whether you were "fazed" or not. there are several reasons behind it:

1. when LLD pushed you - and I don't mean after she had been pushing you for a while, you did this after she so much as RVS voted you - you made those two posts that were essentially joking around about "WHO ARE YOU, I WILL EAT YOU". I don't understand what the point of this is; it reads as if you thought you would be expected to react but weren't sure how, and thought kinda-not-seriously yelling about it in that way would be an approach no one would take issue with. if you didn't care, why not just ignore it? if you were just hoping to have a bit of fun, that would be OK if it was only the first post, but doesn't seem plausible for the second post; at that point her push on you was distinctly serious.

2. it's in complete contrast to the approach you took, and continue to take, with me. here you are trying to walk me through why I'm on the wrong track with my scum read on you. why doesn't LLD get the same treatment? I would expect you'd at the very least *ask* her why she's scum reading you; one would generally be interested in working with a town read in order to try and clear things up for them. again, it reads like you weren't sure how you could go about interacting with her in a way that would look good.

yume's vote annoyed me a little tho because her reason for scumreading me was so dumb.

my issue isn't the fact you were annoyed at Yume; that is fine, and probably reasonable. my issue is the fact that after her one post where she voted you, you immediately went all-out into "just shut up for the rest of the game" mode. this is a type of annoyance that usually only comes around when someone has spent a large duration of the game being dumb, not something you say when one person makes a dumb vote on you without doing anything else.

the way i approach games is try to get a feel of players and then as soon as someone pinges me scum, i start focusing on them. lld has done things i deem dumb for scum to do, especially at the beginning of the game when scum try to establish a more solid impression. she is town for me now so i dont care why she's pushing me. rather than engage in pointless exchange with those pushing me, im more interested in pushing those i find scummy.

why do you not consider "make a hard push on someone" to be something that would give off a good impression? if anything, I would think doing so would be an excellent way to appear town early and get people to think that you have a scum read that you genuinely believe in (as you seem to be thinking here).

youre right tho about yume, i guess that looks a bit hypocritical on my part. but i can explain that too. the initial defensiveness yume showed, on it's own, i thought could be fakeable. but then the longer the yume episode went on, the more posts and reactions i found towny from her so i ended up reading her as town. it was gradual

again, my issue here is more that your reactions to me and LLD were in direct contrast to each other; you picked my posts apart in very fine detail, but seemed to completely not give a fuck about everything LLD was posting. you seem to be interested in walking me through why my read on you is wrong, but aren't doing the same with other people's reads who you are town reading. your focus here is really off and inconsistent, as if you're manufacturing it.

[pieguyn]

Aris' response to me is troubling, as "has trouble fabricating viable reads" is one of his primary scum traits. I am interested in seeing what he comes up with after the game has progressed more.

TTH, what is your opinion of kraska?

[pieguyn]

TTH probably is town.

[pieguyn]

Pie im sorry but that's too many words I can't be bothered to read
I feel like I explained everything so dunno where u getting all these words from

you absolutely do not get to pull this over me. my post isn't even that long, and I feel I've clarified what my issue with you is in a fairly concise manner (the key point being that it's more about your approach being inconsistent than how you approached anyone individually, and the fact that your reaction to LLD generally looks really really bad).

p-edit: I don't agree, though I probably won't argue it. what do you think of what I pointed out re: her reaction to LLD?

[pieguyn]

beeboy read on pie?

is there a reason you specifically asked him for a read on me?

do you have reads on either of us?

[pieguyn]

@TTH: the question in 239 was directed to you, in case I didn't make it clear.

[pieguyn]

I actually meant the other thing (her 24 and 112). that just read like she was coming up with bullshit because she didn't know how to react correctly (i.e. wasn't sure if asking LLD for reasoning would be perceived as overdefensive, but didn't want to outright ignore it).

[pieguyn]

hoi, mollie.

beeboy read on pie?

is there a reason you specifically asked him for a read on me?

do you have reads on either of us?

[pieguyn]

Those two posts were clearly shitposting. Motivation behind them is shitposting
When i get extra disengaged, i do spoopy red letters in archaic third person too :3
You're not factoring complexity of other people's personalities into your analyses, you're just using yourself as a benchmark to compare me against and that's a fucking linear way of thinking. And you're getting more and more ridiculously detailed about outlining thought processes i never even had. The problem with this is i can't even argue with it or defend myself against because your premises are false

I am well aware that those two posts are clearly shitposting. what I take issue with is _why_.

the way I see this, there are two options:

1. you saw LLD vote you in RVS and made 24, which by itself is probably fine (disregarding the fact that I think the post itself was overdone). then you saw LLD confirm her push on you was serious and made 112 anyway, despite the fact that even outside of LLD's push on you, there were serious things going on by that point.

2. you saw LLD vote you in RVS, weren't sure if it was serious, how you should respond to it, whether it'd come across as overdefensive if you asked her for reasoning, but didn't want to outright ignore it, and so decided making 24 would be a good-enough way to appear like you were naturally RVS posting in a way that no one would take issue with. you saw LLD continuing to push you, figured that you did OK enough by reacting to her last post in the way that you did, and continued using the same approach with 112.

I absolutely am factoring motivation into this, and if your best response is "I like to shitpost" then meh. that is really shit for an excuse, and if this is what you're going to say then this will likely be something that factors into my read on you for the rest of the game, honestly - it doesn't mean jack shit if you like to shitpost as town, what matters is that the way you went about it here looked really, really strained and not natural in a way I would usually expect someone to shitpost.

if you don't like it, then argue the point or start doing town things

/shrug

[pieguyn]

I was actually curious and performed a search of me with tbh but got nothing XD guess search terms were to small

You only used it twice in your two-page ISO in Summer Waltz. You've already used it twice just on this page here.

I'm pretty thoroughly creeped out

is this a kind of thing you usually hunt for, btw?

[pieguyn]

we're lynching kraska today. her last post is such a typical "I need to make it look like this person is 'tunneling' so no one listens to her", and the angle on Skybird is similarly horrible.

how the fuck do people read this as town?

[pieguyn]

Skybird's point on you has nothing to do with you town reading inactive players; her point on you was that you looked like you were attempting to pull up you posting a lot as a reason to cast doubt on mollie's read on you.

it isn't a particularly compelling angle as far as reads on you go, but you pulling up your town reads on LLD/Mala as if they are somehow relevant reads like obfuscation.

[pieguyn]

Pie
Can u like
Listen to me for 2 minutes
I cannot possibly think quantity of my posts make me townier, when 2 people I have as town have barely posted
Like
Can you see what I'm saying

you pulling up you posting a lot as a reason to cast doubt on mollie's read on you is something you might do regardless of whether or not you use activity as a base for reading other people. the two things are not related.

[pieguyn]

If you've gone through the trouble of reading summer waltz to figure me out, that gives me a very good feeling that you're town tho.

Luna, please don't do this. it absolutely is not difficult to use general knowledge of how people play as scum, if you've seen games they were in. I have literally *done this* before as scum. I have seen people like Mala do this as scum (and no surprise she got town read for it and I had to explain why it wasn't a town tell).

it isn't a town tell and you shouldn't get caught up in it.

[pieguyn]

This is just a pile of NAI stuff and Skybird should get more votes pls.

why don't you want to vote kraska?

she's being blatantly disingenuous towards me and it's not even difficult to see this is what she's doing. have you read my recent posts about her?

[pieguyn]

She did get an accurate description of my playstyle out of it tho. Doesn't look faked tbh.

being genuine about town reads is a really, really, *really* easy thing to do as scum, and you should really know this. and it isn't like she went out of her way to meta you or anything like that, she just made one observation based off of a game where she had seen you before.

so how is it difficult to fake?

do I really have to go and link games where I've seen people take this approach before?

[pieguyn]

VOTE: kraska

I don't think I've ever loved you as much as I do right now.

[pieguyn]

I can second that I have seen scum fake this before and it was a lot more convincing...

what are you trying to say here? that you've seen scum fake it in a more convincing way than kraska, or that the way kraska did it looked more convincing?

[pieguyn]

You know what, since apparently all my reads are wrong and all your reads are right you might as well tell me what reads i should have and i shouldn't even bother playing the game! It is hard to explain for me why i get this feeling she's being genuine, and i know, that can easily be faked yada yada yada, but why cant you be the one that's wrong?

P-Edit: Aaand now im even less inclined to vote there with all these votes.

Luna, I'm more than open to the idea of kraska being town if there's a *compelling* reason for it. the thing is, no one has given one, and instead of actually responding to my posts and trying to get me to see why I'm wrong about her, she's just sitting there and claiming "onoez pie is tunneling me!!11!". I have explained this, *in depth*, at least 3 times, and she sits there, doesn't even try to address it, and says I'm "reading too much into nothing".

it isn't a town approach. it's a textbook scum approach when you want to make people ignore someone's read on you without actually having to address it (hey Mala, seem familiar)?

if she starts acting town, or if someone can actually give a good argument for her being town, then yes I would reconsider the read. but I'm not going to town read her for something you've *admitted* is easily faked.

[pieguyn]

ebwop: this is interesting.

[pieguyn]

Pie do you have a compelling reason to make me not vote Skybird?

kraska is more likely to flip scum and her push on Skybird was really bad (independently of that, Skybird is null).

I also think a kraska-scum flip would be really interesting, for a few reasons which I might get into later.

[pieguyn]

Replace Kraska with Skybird and Skybird with Kraska and that is where I am at right now.

can you walk me through your scum read on Skybird again?

I've seen your posts etc., I just want to make sure I'm not missing any of it for completeness's sake.

[pieguyn]

I'm responding to beegirl, but one thing first: I'm taking any hammer as a scum claim given Foxbird's vote was all the way back from fucking _RVS_.

also, if Skybird flips town and kraska is scum, I would be very concerned with Luna.

[pieguyn]

It was really just her horrible reason for scum reading her counter wagon and not actually voting it that makes me think she is scum. Like Kraska has plenty of content to create a non terrible read.

my major issue is, I *really* don't think Skybird's read is as horrible as a lot of people are claiming it is. the major point she was making was that kraska's posts along the lines of e.g. 149 read like she was trying to use her posting a lot as a reason to throw doubt on mollie's read on her. I think it's not a compelling point, yes, but it isn't "horrible" in terms of her thought process. I can easily read this post and see someone thinking that the mention of her activity was off and out of nowhere and hoping to attribute a reason to it, since it kind of is, and "I've posted a lot" is, in fact, an excuse scum like to pull up in order to cast doubt on reads on them.

do I think it's what kraska was doing in that post? not really. but I don't think it's unreasonable at all for someone to interpret it that way and I don't know why so many people think it's so horrible.

I don't take issue with her building up to it with the way that she did, and I don't really take issue with the fact that she didn't vote it immediately, either. I could just as easily see it coming from town who has trouble getting up to speed in games early, or town who is just strict with their votes/wants to probe around a bit first before making an explicit vote.

can you walk me through where I'm going wrong here?

[pieguyn]

also, re: the last paragraph, Skybird's recent posts seem to confirm that at the least she is that kind of player.

[pieguyn]

Pie why reach out to me in particular out of the people voting Skybird here?

you and Luna are the people I imagined I'd be able to work with the easiest.

[pieguyn]

I feel as though your read on Luna is in more of a grey zone which is why I am surprised you are engaging me and not her.

I did try to reach out to both of you, just her response was to basically dismiss me entirely, and I don't see it being productive to focus on that right now. I'm not really in sorting mode when it comes to this, I'm in "dismantle the fuck out of this wagon everything else be damned" mode.

[pieguyn]

Why?

I think kraska is scum and I take issue with the way both kraska and Luna are approaching the Skybird read.

I don't really want to get into a debate with Luna right at this second, though; I would prefer to wait and see what happens for a bit and then engage her over it if it's still relevant.

[pieguyn]

But pie fails to see this possibility
It's giving me a chilly feeling.

you did see my 357, correct?

I have no intention of dropping a read because "it could be wrong" and no other reason, and I don't have any idea why you think I would.

[pieguyn]

You being concerned with me if im wrong is what i dont like.

it's not that you'd be wrong and that's it. there are a few specific things beyond "wrong" about the way you're approaching this that make me squint that I'd take a closer look at if kraska ends up being scum.

I mostly intend to just give you room for a while and talk about it later if I still don't have any reason to think you're town. it is there, but it's not enough to where I feel it's a good idea to make a point of it if I'm wrong about it.

[pieguyn]

:/

[pieguyn]

Well i'm moving Nahdia to strong townread.
In no way was that fakeable.

I... really should probably replace out too... i feel terribad about it

please don't.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: Skybird

sigh.

can you read 385 and tell me why you disagree with it?

[pieguyn]

^this.

/hugs

[pieguyn]

No matter what you tell me I won't be able to get over how terrible 297 was.

Nothing Skybird has posted so far would suggest she thinks the bolded part of your post.

the reasoning in 297 wasn't great, but I don't think the way she went about it was malicious. I completely disagree, for one, that her use of "ATE" is indicative of anything; it isn't scummy, yes, but some people just have a tendency to think it is for some reason.

I think if you're interpreting her kraska read differently, you're probably misreading her posts? 296 seems to pretty clearly imply that's what she was going for there, and actually, now that I look at it again, she's correct in 348 about kraska's "you're reading something into nothing" approach which comes from the same mindset of casting doubt on people's scum reads on you.

I think the thing about her being slow/hesitant to vote is a play style thing, and I'm really hoping you can come around on this. I think kraska's 299 is a much more reasonable place than any to go from thinking she *could be* scum to being very sure she *is* scum, since as I've brought up before, it was a really bad post that read more like obfuscation than anything (a point Skybird makes in the post where she voted).

Ok so I don't know when self meta has ever been reliable but let's say for a minute it is. I went to check Skybirds games and the last time she rolled town in a game that wasn't a large theme was approximately 9 months ago. She could effectively just say whatever she wants as scum right now about how she would plan on playing as town.

I think you're on the wrong track with this, too. scum usually will not lie about things that are easily fact-checkable like how they play from game to game, since it's a really stupid thing to lie about; all someone has to do is point out that this isn't how they play or meta them and find a game where they played differently and it's obvious they're full of shit. I'm pretty sure I have never seen scum take the approach of "make up facts about my play and rely on the fact that no one can tell whether I'd play like this as town or not", since not only is it a really unorthodox approach, it isn't one that is likely to work at all, precisely *because* no one will have any faith whatsoever in cold meta from that long ago.

[pieguyn]

Although I guess we still have 0 progression because the idea was you wanted me to vote Kraska lol.

that's a part of it, but really, the more I hear people explain their scum reads on Skybird, the more thoroughly unconvinced I am by any of it.

*if* we were to pick someone outside of {kraska, Skybird}, who would you want to vote? do you have a read on Aris?

[pieguyn]

I am... actually pretty satisfied with Skybird's most recent post.

I'm getting weirded out on TTH.

[pieguyn]

loud sigh.

I am more than OK with this Aris wagon, but I am so sick of people thinking "lelel genuine posting" is a good reason for anything.

[pieguyn]

"Actually"? I "actually" may or may not be satisfied pending further Skybird responses.

And I'm "actually" pretty annoyed at the nonspecific shade being thrown at me.

most of my issues with you are somewhat minor, but they're still noticeable. first off, I thought you poking Luna over her use of "tbh" earlier was unusual; it's a kind of angle that I expect scum to be significantly more likely to push than town, since it usually doesn't mean anything, but it's generally a good-sounding angle that people can look at and think "oh, that's a good catch!". you did it again to me in this post; I'm curious to know what your point here actually (lelel) was.

I thought your questioning of Skybird earlier was eh and after thinking about it some more it read like scum attempting to soft push a wagon from the sidelines without firmly committing to it. actually, now that I look at it from the top, you've hardly been definitively stating reads in general; outside of Foxbird, it's all been very soft. I don't remember you being this soft with your pushes in FG's game, or any of the other games where I've seen you as town.

while it isn't entirely unreasonable, the angle you were pushing in 511 about "these people aren't town for claiming confirmable roles" makes me wary since it's the kind of approach I would take, and have taken before, as scum if I was worried about people writing them off for it and wanted to preempt this from happening.

I don't really like that your reaction to me pointing this out was to start claiming I was "throwing shade" and to ask UTL why she was reading me as town, either. it wasn't like UTL was the first who town read me; if you were curious about town reads on me, why wait until now to probe around about it?

[pieguyn]

You can loudly sigh and mock me when you give a good reason for town reading Skybird's posts.

I'm also not OK with you turning the onus back around onto me to provide a "good" reason for town reading Skybird; she doesn't look blindingly town, but I think some things she did have looked kinda town and none of the reasoning for scum reading her has been good or compelling. I liked her 509, for instance, because even though she wasn't specific about it, she zeroed in on one of the things that pinged me about Luna's approach to me.

kraska's posts, on the other hand, are horrible, and the only reason given for town reading her has been "her posts are ~genuine~".

/shrug

[pieguyn]

I don't have any issue with mollie's posts, btw; I see the point about her activity but the way she's going about it doesn't strike me as malicious. I'd like if UTL could point me to something specific about it that she's taking issue with.

"scum find it more difficult to make genuine posts" is one of the greatest misconceptions I've seen in the current site meta, unless you can point out specific things about it that look "genuine" or town.

[pieguyn]

Has anybody ISOd LLD or Mala? I don't like either of those slots right now.

is this just due to lurking, btw, or is there something specific about their posts that you dislike?

[pieguyn]

Congrats on seeing that my reads aren't very developed but a good chunk of the game is completely MIA and I think generally people aren't doing really alignment indicative things.

can you walk me through your Foxbird read in more depth?

Right, "weirded out" is not throwing shade at all. You were just complimenting my quirky personality and I must've taken it the wrong way.
And OMGUS certainly is a scumtell. Shucks, how did I forget that? How could I not townread you pushing someone who I think is probably town and pivoting to someone who I know is town?

I don't take issue with the fact that you take issue with me being suspicious at you; I take issue with the way you went about it. you could have easily done something like asking me to explain in more depth why I was weirded out on you, or telling me I was being dumb, or even just ignoring it and seeing how it would play out, or anything along those lines. instead, you drew attention to the fact that I hadn't explained anything at that point and claimed it was "throwing shade".

that doesn't read like you were trying to sort me, it reads like you were trying to discredit me. the fact that you didn't try to sort through any of the town reads on me until after I had stated suspicion on you is the same type of thing; you easily could have asked e.g. Luna or beegirl why they were reading my kraska push as town if you didn't agree with it.

[pieguyn]

the fact that you didn't try to sort through any of the town reads on me until after I had stated suspicion on you is the same type of thing; you easily could have asked e.g. Luna or beegirl why they were reading my kraska push as town if you didn't agree with it.

@TTH: do you have any response to this?

[pieguyn]

the fact that you didn't try to sort through any of the town reads on me until after I had stated suspicion on you is the same type of thing; you easily could have asked e.g. Luna or beegirl why they were reading my kraska push as town if you didn't agree with it.

@TTH: do you have any response to this?

Other than point out that UTL was the only one who townread you after you made Post 517.
No

I don't see what you're getting at here, unless you're saying you just didn't think about it until the point where I made 517?

there were people (Luna and beegirl come to mind) calling my kraska push town well before that, and if you were interested in understanding why people were town reading me, it wouldn't have been difficult at all to ask them about it.

[pieguyn]

No offense, but the town read on me for my first two-three posts are terribad. Kraska, I really, really don't understand how you came to this read. It just feels fake as hell.

/support

[pieguyn]

Actually TTH is feeling a lot more town too.

can you talk to me about this in more depth?

[pieguyn]

this will be interesting.

[pieguyn]

well UTL is town, in case it wasn't obvious.

[pieguyn]

Lurking, and lack of content. I do see Mala has caught up and I need to read through that again here in a few.

LLD's approach freaks me out just because it's such a direct contrast to what I would have expected from her in general, and because even though this doesn't look like how she approached either of the scum games where I saw her and I didn't mind her kraska push, if she *does* happen to be scum here I imagine she would be more than capable of coasting on how she's playing this all the way until endgame in cold blood.

she is someone who I'm waiting to hear more from when she comes back and can actually catch up.

[pieguyn]

I don't want a hammer until Layla generates content, either.

[pieguyn]

But beegirl wanted me to press Art and decided to jump ship when it got hot, ill take note of that.

I'm like 104% sure beegirl's unvote was solely to prevent Yume just hammering and cutting the day off.

[pieguyn]

Yeah and art hasnt posted and he went from L-1 to L-4 for... what reason?

you're wrong to assume that Yume's goal was cutting the day off; beegirl likely thought she probably just wouldn't see how stupid it would be for her to hammer in that situation, which is a sentiment I agree with.

I think unless you have some specific issue with either of beegirl or UTL's unvotes, you're on the wrong track to think there's anything malicious about it.

[pieguyn]

Pie ;-;

Mala?

[pieguyn]

Is it just me or do I not like Layla's posting? Lol

it isn't!

to be specific, it's adorable, but it's completely fakeable.

[pieguyn]

we cld lynch luna

Over my dead body.

can you explain this read?

[pieguyn]

Hint: Personally break rarely RARELY comes from scum. Very unorthodox way to read players but also very effective way to read players.

. . . . . . .

please don't tell me you're actually serious.

[pieguyn]

my heart just broke into a million tiny pieces.

you actually are just scum, aren't you?

[pieguyn]

Nope!

That's actually how I read people like Mara because it's a very easy way out.

I don't believe for half a second you're calling something like a "personality break" town when 1. all it was was like one or two posts where Luna lashed out at Nahdia which really weren't that town, and 2. you saw that infamous swag-wars game where I coasted on ffery/notsci town reading me for that same exact thing and went on to win the game. you should really know that something like that is _well_ within Luna's scum play.

have I just gone completely fucking insane???

[pieguyn]

If you mean the later parts, I never read that game to completion.

I am pretty sure I told you what happened in that game? tl;dr is I completely lost it and had a huge emotional breakdown and ffery and notsci treated me as confirmed town for it.

I'm not saying that what happened here was the exact same thing, but the key point is that it absolutely is not difficult for scum to get angry and snap at people, especially if it's something minor like what happened with Luna earlier. I have a *lot* of trouble believing you don't know this and I don't believe you think this is a good reason to town read her, especially for someone like her who is more than capable of playing the emotional game as scum.

[pieguyn]

I think you're giving my scum game too much credit ^_^;;

I sure as hell am not. I know better.

[pieguyn]

have you seen luna as scum?

I'm *very* familiar with how she plays as scum. I probably won't go too in-depth on meta unless it's convenient for me, though.

[pieguyn]

While it would be fun to just say "Eh? Nandatte?" and watch you go completely insane but my sadism level is not high enough yet.

Also I really do believe that's a good reason to townread her.
What, do you think that her personality break was not natrually built upon and could've been faked?

*I* would be capable of faking that.

it's really easily fakeable, and it's completely baffling to me that you seem to think otherwise.

[pieguyn]

Pie, remind me, are you scum reading luna?

independently, I still don't read her either way. there are a few things that bug me about her but that's it.

if Layla flips scum, though, she goes next, 100%.

[pieguyn]

GIF, I will fucking kill you.

I could support "if I'm town sheep my reads the rest of the game", but _Yume_???

[pieguyn]

GIF, I will fucking kill you.

I could support "if I'm town sheep my reads the rest of the game", but _Yume_???

No compromise.

It's my way or the highway.

did I mention how much I hate you?

[pieguyn]

Meanwhile my townread on pie is starting to rot.

what is this about?

[pieguyn]

I need a mafia break.

[pieguyn]

there is something that I want to say right now, but I just won't.

Luna, I'll get around to responding to you later.

[pieguyn]

there is something that I want to iron out before the dayphase ends. if I don't get around to it this evening, slap me in the face.

[pieguyn]

Meanwhile my townread on pie is starting to rot.

what is this about?

Like i literally cant believe how you've been scumreading GIF's slot all game, and you continue to do so. I know i said i couldnt explain my kraska townread coz it was a bunch of feeling in her posts, but you need to realize that sometimes people dont play like you think they do, i mentioned this multiple times, you keep tunnel visioning, instead of actually seeing things from the other player's PoV.

this post.

I still don't know if I should even post this and if it comes across as harsh you should know I don't intend to add any toxicity to this game, I intend it as a reach-out, because I'm *really* confused by your approach to me and it's actually a large part of why I'm so depressed with this game (and mafia in general).

Luna, I would expect that of all of the people in this game, *you* should be familiar with my approach to games. if I hard push a read, it is not because "I'm discounting people playing in a different way from me" or because "I've assumed town won't ever do action X". it's because I *have* considered the fact that kraska might just be a really horrible player or that kraska might somehow play in the way she has been as town, and I've decided that it objectively just isn't likely. and, if you read my posts, I have been doing this, multiple times... as just one example, 294, which her response to was to start screaming I was making something out of nothing - despite the fact I think it's *really* fucking obvious what my issue with these posts actually are.

kraska being a bad player or not playing the same way I do has nothing to do with it. the key point here in that instance is that I think her posts look really forced, and are objectively not likely to come from her as town regardless of how she plays. the rest of my read is the same as this, and what I was expecting was that you might see me scum reading her, see me alluding to my reasoning for scum reading her, and either try to help me work out the read in similar vein to Cake-kun from FG's game (he was town there, but even after he flipped town you agreed with me that everything I pointed out about him made sense, so...) or at least make some attempt at engaging me over it or trying to understand where my scum read on her was coming from.

instead? you saw it and from the get go, you basically shrugged it off as "your read is coming from a place of you assuming town won't ever do X" as if you didn't even give a shit about it. and it isn't just limited to things having to do with kraska, it's everything... I've told you so so so many times that "genuine posting" isn't a good reason to town read someone and that it's really easy for scum to make "genuine" sounding posts. you've _seen_ this firsthand.

and the thing is, that's fine. I'd be OK with it if we just agreed to disagree, and I was content to not bug you over it any more. but now you're sitting here and saying that I'm _scum_ because I'm not just shutting up and agreeing with your read?

did I do something to you? I feel like I've done something horrible, or that you've just lost whatever respect you had for me or my play entirely.

[pieguyn]

.......... whatever.

intent to hammer Aris.

[pieguyn]

I won't scum read Pie unless a specific set of flips happen at this point o3o

please, please please do not forget this exchange if I die overnight, btw.

[pieguyn]

We are not ending Day 1 until LLD has at least 30 posts.

I'm OK with this, too.

[pieguyn]

I think I know what you want me to do if you die tonight.

[pieguyn]

Oh pie, since you're here, deal or no deal?

I still haven't gotten my answer.

if me sitting over here hiding and telling you I hated you wasn't any indication, no deal. /runs away

[pieguyn]

vote: Aris

[pieguyn]

[]===
===[]

p-edit: seriously? that is not even remotely a town claim.

[pieguyn]

I have seen scum fake vig early game so many times that my natural inclination is to assume it's a scum claim, actually (hai Mala). moreover, as you pointed out, the way the claim came out doesn't look genuine at all.

p-edit: @TTH

[pieguyn]

that's exactly the reason scum fake it all of the time.

you get used to it after a while.

[pieguyn]

am I actually going to have to start strong-arming this? please don't make me, I *really* don't feel like it.

[pieguyn]

I'm popping in to say Aris' catchup so far has done absolutely nothing to change my opinion of him. I'm just waiting for when/if he finishes it more than anything.

[pieguyn]

MOD: I'm V/LA until Monday evening. Cabd/penguin wedding hype~

[pieguyn]

if we don't want to lynch Aris (even though I still feel mostly sure he's scum here), I would be more than OK with pirate mollie as an alternative lynch.

I'm also seriously, seriously, _seriously_ considering something else, but it would thoroughly fucking suck if I'm wrong about it, so (though the fact I'm even thinking about it at this point is in itself probably a huge red flag). everyone should know what I mean by this, but it's the kind of thing where there's such a huge sense of finality in actually explicitly saying it and there's no way in hell I burn that bridge until I'm 100% sure on it.

[pieguyn]

I have lost approximately 100% of my conviction Layla is scum. you should be able to figure the rest out from there.

[pieguyn]

Luna, are you _sure_ you're OK?

this would be the point where I expected you'd be up in arms that I made such a big deal over GIF-slot and ignored you telling me otherwise, only for me to go and stop thinking GIF was scum. I wasn't expecting that what I said in 1091 would be something you'd just outright ignore.

my obvious inclination is to attribute it to you being scum, but that response has no fire even for scum-you.

[pieguyn]

and that's only the most recent thing; your play this entire game has been really off. I seriously want you to let me know if there's some sort of external thing that's affecting you that I'm not aware of, because I would hate to lynch you over this and it turns out all of what I'm seeing had some other thing causing all of it.

p-edit: you assume that when I have a scum read on you despite the fact you put a significant amount of effort trying to get me to see GIF was town.

[pieguyn]

this was also the entire reason behind that reach-out post earlier, and instead of giving me anything I could work with, you claimed I was trying to "guilt-trip" you. though at the same time I admit I was really frustrated when I made that and I'm not sure I worded it how I should have, so.

I need to go to sleep and I probably won't have a chance to post tomorrow, but if you want to respond leave it and I'll at least probably have a chance to see it and think about it.

[pieguyn]

:/

[pieguyn]

I'm only half skimming atm (will be back in full either this evening or tomorrow) but at a glance I don't have any issue with those Foxbird posts. I also pretty strongly disagree with you saying mollie is "off the table" for softing something.

[pieguyn]

I fucking hate posfing from my phone.

I am not lynching Foxbird. beegirl, you were mostly on the right track earlier; the only reason I remember town reading her in waltz game was because of how extremely, extremely willing to die she was.

I will accept {Aris, mollie, Luna}, so if you don't want Aris, I can compromise on the other two (might not be until tonight bc phone).

[pieguyn]

I am actually thinking a mollie lynch might be better, just due to the way the wagons have happened so far.

if you want it, make it happen while Im on the flight Im about to board and Ill join when I get back to a PC.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

VOTE: LUNA FOX

[pieguyn]

Luna is third party. I have 95% confidence on this. beegirl, LLD, GIF, anyone else, please please please please please sheep me, and yes this means I'm taking the Yume pact if I'm wrong on this.

I say this because her play has been completely fucking off from anything I would expect from her as town ever, but it wasn't off in a scummy way, it was just off. Her being third party, on the other hand? Perfectly explains it. All of it.

I spent the last three hours listening to a song from a series which literally destroys the entire world, so I'm going full aggro on this. I am fucking making Luna dead.

[pieguyn]

First off her role: "Odd night messenger" which she claimed earlier, plus *vig* makes no fucking sense as a role; it does, on the other hand, make sense as something you'd give an SK to give them a plausible town-looking fake claim.

[pieguyn]

Second off, anyone who's been following her interactions with me can easily see she has been distant as fuck towards me. Tl;dr of this is that this is not an approach she would, or has ever, taken towards me as town; anyone at all who has seen our dynamic has seen how we tend to interact with each other. It isn't what I would have expected from her as mafia, though, either, since she has enough common sense to know she has to at least fake that, and she's not bad at it.

Her being a third party, though? Means it makes 100% sense how distant to me she's been. I felt really strongly her excuse of her being "overgamed" was false when she made it, but I didn't push on it.

I've had a very slight scum read on the rest of her play even outside of the interactions with me, too, ftr.

I can go pull up a *bunch* of quotes if people want me to, and I'm back at a PC now so hell fuck yes I'm going to strong-arm the shit out of this. And no I'm not interested in leashing her, that would work in a large but never in a mini; in a mini you want extra scum kills out of the game *immediately*.

[pieguyn]

I have an overwhelming amount of evidence I can pull up (and will if people don't follow me), but I was basically in permanent "give her room so I can be more sure about the read" mode and I wanted to make sure none of what I was seeing was due to outside factors so I haven't gone into specifics on any of it yet. After this, though, I'm sure.

Please please *please* sheep me, this will be so much easier and less painful if you don't make me do this.

[pieguyn]

No, we're not letting her get to the night phase (especially when a lot of SKs have some form of BP). We lynch her immediately so that the parity isn't interfered with.

Are you going to follow me?

[pieguyn]

If I'm wrong on this (I'm not) you get to see me follow Yume around the entire game while I just hang my head in shame, so it's a win/win for both of you.

[pieguyn]

Like please just follow me. I have the highest familiarity with Luna out of everyone in this game (yes even you GIF), and her play this entire game has been throwing me for a loop because it's been really off, but not in a scummy way, and there were a few things that might have been weak town tells if I squint, which made absolutely no sense whatsoever to me because I had no idea WTF was going on.

It all fits as 3p, though, and you can fucking trust me on this. I would not be doing this if I wasn't *really* fucking sure on it.

p-edit: GIF's Yume pact from earlier. It obviously only applies if he sheeps me ~

[pieguyn]

Actually wait does Yume still shoot Ari if Luna is scum/SK?
I am thinking yes still.

I think Aris is mafia, I think Luna is SK. So yes.

[pieguyn]

Why would you follow Yume around?

TTH are you going to follow me or do you really need me to explain everything I've been seeing in detail (which ftr goes all the way back to like her first posts in the game)?

It's either you follow me, or I explain it, you read it and go "mhm that makes sense" and follow me, so please just follow me.

[pieguyn]

Add to that her role makes no fucking sense as town (odd night messenger+vig???). She's the lynch today, 100%.

[pieguyn]

[pieguyn]

LLD, I love you.

[pieguyn]

[]===
===[]

[pieguyn]

Nagito, can you calculate the odds of both of us living tonight?/

I doubt you'll get nightkilled, tbh. I might be, but I might not be.

[pieguyn]

also lol'd @ Nagito. that has all the wrong implications.

p-edit: []=== ===[]

[pieguyn]

Pie I kind of want Yume to shoot Mollie >.>

either Aris or mollie is probably fine, tbh.

[pieguyn]

Whatever.

VOTE: Mala

The vigges should all shoot each other.

I will have absolutely none of this "resolve it overnight" nonsense; the vast majority of SKs have some type of bulletproof. we lynch Luna today, no questions.

[pieguyn]

that's not to mention there are so many other problems with doing that even outside of the SK potentially having BP.

[pieguyn]

... /headdesk

Aris scum, UTL vig, Yume is probably just a dumbshit who's faking vig for some god-awful reason.

[pieguyn]

Yeah good idea pie, ignore the player that claimed Ascetic Neighborizer Vig and lynch the one that has no sort of protection against anything.

you're really cute. :3

[pieguyn]

... /headdesk

Aris scum, UTL vig, Yume is probably just a dumbshit who's faking vig for some god-awful reason.

And Luna?

if you really can't figure it out, then all I have to say is .

[pieguyn]

now that I think about it, even if UTL isn't a vig, Yume probably still just is a dumbshit who's faking vig for some god-awful reason.

[pieguyn]

I'm going to attempt to go to sleep now, because literally fuck airports.

I hope when I wake up, I'll see a hammer with a beautiful third-party result on Luna. do not go off and start being stupid, do not get distracted, do not run away, this is simple shit.

[pieguyn]

Slept on it and I don't want to lynch Luna any more. Let's just lynch the obvscum.
VOTE: Ari

I would also lynch Yume in the interest of making the game playable.

don't do this please.

Luna today, we can get Aris tomorrow. Luna is not fucking town (her 1650 makes it completely obvious), and if we don't lynch her today and she gets a kill off on me tonight she will get straight away with it in cold blood, 100%.

Aris, on the other hand, will always be around and doesn't pose any threat whatsoever.

I don't particularly care what Yume is. if she's being truthful about the vig claim, then she's vig, Aris is scum, and Luna is SK; if she's faking it, Aris is still scum and Luna is still SK. there is no narrative here, and Luna pushing that there is is just a last resort she's spinning in order to hopefully get out of it. so, /shrug.

[pieguyn]

Pie jsyk you're really going to get your vote stuck on Yume.

it technically only applied if you followed me, you know.

/stares

[pieguyn]

don't even fucking start with that.

Titus was a meta read that Nacho described as "pattern-matching". this is not a read where it's just like "hey I've seen X in a few games and they do this thing as town and this thing as scum and they did the scum thing here", this is a read where I have done my due diligence and if you vote her and lynch her she will flip scum.

as I said, I'm more than capable of going through all of her posts and explaining, in-depth, what I've been thinking about all of them over the course of this entire game day and how it's affected my approach to her, but 11 hours. have faith in me for once in my fucking life.

[pieguyn]

add to that "double-action" still is not a town modifier in any universe, ever, and even if it somehow was "vig and message on odd nights" makes so much more sense and is so, so, so much more elegant than "vig *every* night and message on odd nights".

I will continue to point this out, because it continues to make no fucking sense, and Luna will continue to say "omg pie is sitting over there spinning that my role only makes sense as an SK role!!11", because that's the only out she has for getting out of it.

[pieguyn]

If you're wrong I'm going to include katsuki in my setup designing.

do whatever the fuck you want to me if I'm wrong, I don't care. I'm not, though.

[pieguyn]

add to that "double-action" still is not a town modifier in any universe, ever, and even if it somehow was "vig and message on odd nights" makes so much more sense and is so, so, so much more elegant than "vig *every* night and message on odd nights".

I will continue to point this out, because it continues to make no fucking sense, and Luna will continue to say "omg pie is sitting over there spinning that my role only makes sense as an SK role!!11", because that's the only out she has for getting out of it.

like I will literally just spam this until Luna is lynched if that's what it takes.

from a setup design POV, there is no universe where farside decides it'd somehow be a good idea to say "hey let's make this role a full vig and then give them an *odd night* role on top of that that's completely powerless in relation to the vig anyway", over even something like "hey let's make this role vig and message on odd nights" if she wanted to include a vig messenger in the game.

[pieguyn]

that's hammer.

<3 I'm going to go back to sleep.

[pieguyn]

I'm trying to figure out if I should claim a thing or not. it isn't relevant to any of the other claims so far, but it probably should be done regardless.

Yume still isn't scum, she's just a really, really, really, really bad player. it's reaching the point where a very large part of me would lynch her because of being a liability, but she'll flip town.

vote: Aris

I actually really hate mollie's posts about me. I'll get into this after I make this post.

[pieguyn]

do you know who worries about sks its scum that is who.

I think luna's flip makes pie look infinitely scummier for his read. you shld know this by utl.

first off, I don't particularly believe you read how I was handling Luna, for the entire duration of D1, and somehow come out of that with a "scum hunting for SK" read; I didn't even think of an SK until the point where she claimed "double action vig odd night messenger", which is... really obviously not a town role (and actually now that I'm thinking about it again I'm wondering about GIF because he has a lot of mod experience, and should have been able to see that it was really obviously not a town role, much in the same way I did, as soon as she claimed). up until that point, I had a standard scum read on her. I probably would have kept giving her room until D2 and then came out and lynched her had the vig claim not locked in the read for me.

second off, I said about a hundred times at the end of D1 that I had a bunch of evidence I could pull up if people really needed me to; if you think my read on her makes me scum, why do you just immediately push it without attempting to understand at all where I'm coming from on her first? I have very very high familiarity with Luna, and I've said as much, so certainly you'd realize there had to be *something* to my read on her.

[pieguyn]

also I'd like to know your current read on Aris, since Aris is still pretty clearly scum here and I'm not exactly sure why you seem to think otherwise.

[pieguyn]

I don't really like either Ari or Yume, but tbh I can't decide who is scummier. Gut tells me Yume, but I don't really trust Ari.

can you go into more depth about both of these reads?

[pieguyn]

I do understand your read on luna. I just think it makes you look like scum because of it.

you're missing the point.

there is a lot more depth to my Luna read than what I put in the game thread at the end of D1, which was a very, *very* cursory explanation of it. my read on Luna spanned her posts starting from near the beginning of the game; there was a lot of stuff that I noticed that I didn't point out because I was in observation mode and didn't want to provoke her any more than necessary. I alluded to the fact that there was a lot more depth to it than what I was putting in the thread.

you have seen me in verbose mode before, so there is no way that you would not know that the way I was explaining my Luna read was only a cursory explanation of it.

[pieguyn]

why is ari clearly scum

have you read the end of D1 at all?

[pieguyn]

the issue here @mollie is that, given our previous experience with each other, I would expect you would realize that I know exactly what I'm doing when it comes to Luna, and if you took issue with it I would expect you'd probe around, try to understand my thought process in more detail, and *then* push it if you didn't like what you saw.

not what you're doing here. what you're doing here is what I would expect from scum who thought that "she pushed the SK and scum like to SK hunt" would be an easy angle of attack, and there it was.

[pieguyn]

WE ARE NOT LYNCHING ARISTOPHANES TODAY

if this is a soft, you should just make it explicit.

[pieguyn]

I did.

but obvsly I am not seeing what you are seeing which is why I am asking you to spell out what you are seeing.

for one, he fucking claimed vig and then no vig kill happened.

there's a bunch of play reasons for him being scum as well (tl;dr of it is that everything he did D1 - both his reads and that catchup he made at the end - was really shallow, and I didn't like his play right at the end either. I might pull up what, specifically, I take issue with if I _really_ need to), but this is really fucking straightforward.

[pieguyn]

how is it an easy angle of attack when I have never actually gotten scum lynched for it. like I'VE TRIED.

it's an easy angle of attack because it requires no depth of thought or effort whatsoever - it's just "she pushed the SK and scum like to SK hunt" and that's that. it's an easy thing you can pull up that people can look at and go "yep, that's a good point" and think that you're scum hunting/generating content, when you're really not.

do you have any response to 1836?

[pieguyn]

[pieguyn]

I honestly don't fully buy that Aris is actually clear, but fine.

actually let me check something.

[pieguyn]

Malakittens
Skybird
Foxbird

^
Willing to lynch any of this list. The only reason that I have Foxbird here is just because TTH died and foxbird read was one of her strongest.

I don't think Skybird is scum. if I had to pick someone out of this I'd probably pick Mala.

what is your mollie read?

[pieguyn]

I mean this did happen, didn't it? so unless you are scumreading utl then your scumread on ari doesn't make sense.

I think UTL is town. I don't care about her "explaining it", I care about the clear, but I think there's a nonzero (albeit small) chance whatever result she got was interfered with (and I'm currently checking something with mod), so I'm not just outright writing him off. the chance of this increases significantly if Mala is scum.

[pieguyn]

what the fuck is wrong with your reads this game?

this isn't even the first time you've done this.

p-edit: @GIF

p-edit2: oh my god rofl.

[pieguyn]

Pie just trust me please.

if people want to push a wagon on Yume through, I have 0 interest in stopping it. I don't think she'll flip scum, though.

[pieguyn]

@pie: About the thing you're not sure you should claim: That was most likely me. It's me unless something interfered, anyway.

that's good to know. ~

the thing I'm not sure whether I should claim or not is something extra on top of that, though. I'll get back to you once I've thought about it more.

[pieguyn]

I'm starting to think GIF could be scum. more on this later.

[pieguyn]

it isn't based on what he claimed ftr, I'm just thinking about some things a bit more.

[pieguyn]

@PIRATE MOLLIE:

do you have any response to 1836?

[pieguyn]

and you are expecting me to *magically* determine what you are talking about through your iso and that is not happening.

no, I'm not.

I'm expecting that if you really took issue with my Luna read, you would take more of an interest in what I was talking about, and try to understand where I was coming from on my read on her, *before* coming up with this "SK-hunting" push. you easily could have read my posts and asked me anything along the lines of "why is it not normal for her to be this distant to you", "why do you say SK and not just scum", "is this all you have for scum reading her", or anything along those lines.

you didn't. I made it clear that I had a lot more depth behind my read, and you completely handwaved it and went straight into "she was SK-hunting". what you did here doesn't read like you were genuinely interested in my read on her at all - as I said before, it read more like a convenience push than anything.

as for you asking me to explain it, I would have yesterday when it was relevant, but I think the odds of you getting me lynched are about 0% so it'd largely be a distraction. my goal here isn't to defend myself, it's to scum hunt your thought process.

[pieguyn]

if mollie tries to be like "LELEL UR SCUM SO IM NOT RESPONDING TO YOU" in response to my 1884, I'll probably powerlynch her, by the way.

[pieguyn]

GIF, how in the hell is it that you get the logic for Luna's role being an obvious SK role *now* and you didn't get it back when I was actually lynching her?

vote: pirate mollie

[pieguyn]

lets break this down.

what you are saying is, that I shld have asked you questions when you were sk-reading luna and not now, after her flip is confirmedsk? I scumread luna before it became kewl, I was casting my net wide cos I am in this game for the long haul and it is how I play this type of role as well as bp or any other role that cannot be comepletely removed from the game.

I was scum reading her since 121! I was just playing it really, really, really slowly.

luna was a scumread of mine and in that, we agreed, it is the specificity for the reasons that you gave are what I take issue with. because for the reasons that you have given mean she cld be scum or sk, but you seemed to have inside knowledge for the distinction.

I already talked about this in 1831. up until the point where she claimed "double action vig odd night messenger", my read on her was just a standard scum read on her, yes.

to explain further, I thought her interactions with me were really off, and I had a slight scum read on her posts outside of how she interacted with me. my inclination was always that this was just evidence towards her being scum; I wasn't considering the idea of an SK at all. I spent a lot of D1 poking her because while I thought her interactions with me were off, I didn't know if it actually made sense for it to be because she was scum, in other words to verify whether what I was picking up on was indicative of her being scum or her just having an off game.

there was nothing about an SK until the point where she claimed. it was obviously not a town claim, but it wasn't a claim I thought she'd make as mafia either; claiming full vig as mafia is suicidal. I did, on the other hand, think that "double action vig odd night messenger" is something she'd be very likely to claim as something like an SK with an odd-night messenger, which is exactly what she was; I'm familiar enough with her to be able to intuit things like that. I probably would have pushed her the same way even if she *had* claimed the odd-night message+vig variant I said on D1 would make more sense, or any form of vig, because no form of vig would have made any sense with odd-night messenger, but in this case, the way she claimed made it completely obvious what she was.

from there I realized that her being a third party perfectly explained how she was interacting with me which I couldn't make any sense of before: I figured it wasn't how she'd have interacted with me as groupscum, but after she claimed vig and made me think of an SK, that didn't matter anymore.

tl;dr I poked at her all game because I had a standard scum read on her, I wasn't sure if my read was correct because even though her play was really off I wasn't sure what I was picking up on was correct, she claimed a vig role and that's the point when the "Luna = SK" push developed, and it's also the point when I stopped having reservations about her being scum cos I obviously was not thinking about an SK before that happened

I think this should make it completely clear what my approach to her was, sooo yeah.

[pieguyn]

Mollie Piegirl is town please.
Piegirl Mollie is town super please.

I was actually just about to ask you about this. can you explain why mollie is town in more depth?

[pieguyn]

If Yume is scum, I would maybe think about an LLD partnership.

I'm also curious about your LLD read.

[pieguyn]

I might be wrong on pie. BUT IT IS PRETTY SUSPICIOUS.

1955 is not a post that I would expect to be followed by "I might be wrong but she's still suspicious anyway". I would expect that the natural continuation would be either stepping back and admitting your point on me doesn't hold water, or breaking the post down and questioning it further. AKA being able to come to a firm conclusion on the post one way or the other.

not "I might be wrong but she's still suspicious anyway", which reads more like you're not sure how to continue pushing the read, but still want to leave open the option to scum read me anyway if it's convenient for you.

[pieguyn]

if we're making Yume dead, I would much prefer her being vig'd over her being lynched.

[pieguyn]

It really bugs me that Yume wants to be vigged so badly. She seems too eager to be vigged. I think lynching her is the best strategy.

I don't really agree with this kind of logic; my take on it is that Yume isn't flipping scum, and if we lynch her it'll essentially be an entirely wasted day phase if she's town or a mostly wasted one if she's scum (it hopefully should be obvious why). I don't hold a particularly high opinion of Yume's play, but I do believe that she from a town POV would in fact be able to see that it would not be good if we lynched her assuming she was scum only to find out we've wasted an entire day phase around her and would thus be inclined to fight against it in her ... own way.

even if the shot doesn't go through, there isn't any reason we wouldn't be able to just lynch her tomorrow; we have enough numbers. I don't see a reason not to at least attempt it in this scenario.

[pieguyn]

@pie: About the thing you're not sure you should claim: That was most likely me. It's me unless something interfered, anyway.

This is more or less a prod dodge because it's 2 AM here. Will post more stuff tomorrow.

also, after thinking about it, I think it's safe to say this: don't target me again tonight, please.

[pieguyn]

what the fuck is this game.

1. it isn't "optimal play" to vig a treestump, and the logic there is entirely arbitrary. correct me if I'm misreading something but the logic there literally appears to be "I'm a treestump so the optimal play is to vig me instead of lynching me"... how is this different from anything else, ever? it is completely baffling to me that so many people in this game seem to somehow buy into this, or are somehow against lynching her just because "treestump claim" when it hasn't been proven and it's well within expectation that she would fake it.

2. the point that mollie wouldn't kill TTH because she was "her strongest town read and working with her" is a bad one; I went back to double check and TTH wasn't working with mollie at all nor did she even explicitly state a town read on her. mollie did, on the other hand, state a town read on TTH in 838... for being "cranky town", since that's a good reason to want to think someone is town... based on exactly one post TTH made... so no, the TTH kill isn't impossible from her like she's attempting to claim it is, it could easily be a kill due to not wanting to risk having to play around her any longer. on top of that, the entire argument ignores that mollie is not the only scum in this game; it could easily have been directed by someone else.

I might go through mollie's posts again and explain my read on her in more depth, actually. Mala, I'd still like a more in-depth explanation of why you're town reading her.

[pieguyn]

So you would rather let Yume, the most unhelpful player in the game, who has fakeclaimed vig, and who has a good chance of just wasting me shot due to asceticism, live through the night and likely into tomorrow when we will have to waste another lynch on her? And your big solution to not wasting the day today is to lynch the god damned claimed Treestump!?!?

No.

posts like this are why I thought you were scum. =_=

[pieguyn]

Yume still isn't going to flip scum.

[pieguyn]

UTL where does your Mollie town read stem from?

^was about to ask the same.

[pieguyn]

I mean, pie, you want to argue that we need to kill the treestump claim, I can argue that we need to kill the ascetic claim.

that is not what I'm arguing at all and I'm not sure where you're getting this impression? I want mollie dead because she's scum, not because of what she claimed. the claim only comes into play because everyone seems to think it's somehow a town claim, which is incorrect.

[pieguyn]

just now a thought passed through my head that went along the lines of "it would be sooo nice if LLD came in right about now and turned this thread into a bloodbath", and after PYP6 that's not something I thought I'd think, ever.

[pieguyn]

Foxbird, where are you leaning atm and if it's Yume what can I do to get you to vote mollie? (also, to answer your question, this kind of behavior is standard for Yume, yes.)

[pieguyn]

All right, argue me that a treestump can be a scum claim.

if she's scum then she has a completely different role and the treestump claim is made up.

this isn't that hard.

[pieguyn]

Possible, but I don't see it.

for what reason are you town reading her?

you haven't given any reason for town reading her at all as far as I can tell, you've just sat there saying "lynching her is dumb" the entire game.

[pieguyn]

Actually a better question is:
Why would scum fakeclaim a treestump?

because people will look at it ... in the way that you're doing ... and go "oh, that's a town claim"?

you cannot be this fucking dense

[pieguyn]

it is the exact same logic behind something scum claiming like Hated immediately on D1, which YOU HAVE SEEN BEFORE. I cannot believe that you don't see this.

[pieguyn]

If you really thought that I'm townreading mollie solely for the claim itself, you are absolutely mistaken.

Is that the only thing you got?

it isn't, but you're the one who was asking me how I was seeing her claim as a scum claim.

I'll go into more detail on my read on her sometime later when my brain can function properly.

[pieguyn]

go around yelling "I'm a treestump, I'm obvious town for claiming treestump and it's not the optimal play to lynch me and everyone is bad for pushing something that isn't an optimal play!!11"? which, no surprise, is exactly what she's been doing.

[pieguyn]

she quite clearly is attempting to push that she's a treestump and that it's a stupid idea to lynch her because she's a treestump, and has done so in one of her posts directed *to you*. see: 1976, 1957 and those are just the most recent ones.

her vote had nothing to do with it. you are misreading her "you will lose a town vote" as a literal statement, when it's effectively supposed to have the same meaning as "you're mislynching me".

[pieguyn]

frankly, anyone who isn't voting mollie after that series of posts is bad at the game.

she's being blatantly disingenuous and there are people fucking town reading her for it.

[pieguyn]

this is you stalling on saying why I am scum cos you are hoping my wagon will somehow push through. like if you have thought about your scumread on me in depth like you say you have then you shld have no problem popping out a reason.

this is the worst part about all of it. you don't want me to "pop out" a reason for the goal of clear discussion; you want me to pop out a reason so that you can flood the thread with posts like you just did and try to make it look like you've refuted it when you haven't.

go on, what exactly do I have to gain as scum from "stalling out reasons for scum reading you" or whatever the fuck you're trying to push here?

[pieguyn]

point out where I am being disingenuous

I'm not particularly interested in arguing back and forth with you. it's as I said: you're not doing this for the end goal of clear discussion, you just want to drag the thread into a huge argument with the end goal of making me look worse than you, and you're already doing it by pulling up "I address each point in its own post" as if it's somehow relevant to anything I said (the point I'm making being nothing you're writing is compelling at all, all you're doing is posting a bunch of bullshit and hoping people accept it as truth without thinking critically).

I will explain my read on you in full exactly when I am ready to, and I sure as hell am not going to go out of my way to do it in response to _you_ asking for it when it's obvious this is what you're doing.

[pieguyn]

frankly, anyone who isn't voting mollie after that series of posts is bad at the game.

she's being blatantly disingenuous and there are people fucking town reading her for it.

I disagree. I really liked that series of posts and thought they were both genuine and towny.

because "lelel it's ~genuine~" is such a good reason to town read someone... JUST LIKE LLD IN PYP6, AMIRITE?

I am so sick of having to deal with this bullshit in every fucking game I play.

[pieguyn]

like I have a very, very, very low opinion of how you played in that game. whatever, people have bad games.

what I find completely incomprehensible is that, instead of taking it as a learning experience, you choose to go and do the EXACT SAME FUCKING THING in this game. if you're seriously willing to vig her tonight, then whatever I'm OK with it, but you better not back out of it.

p-edit: @Aris

[pieguyn]

what I really want from you right now is to talk to me as if I had already flipped town tree stump. I wld love to have something to refer back to you if you try to ignore me as a flipped town treestump. if you really are town, plz?

I'm OK with this if you have anything you want to talk about, but don't expect that it'll have any effect on my read on you (that isn't to say I won't talk, it's to say you shouldn't expect that it will make me feel any better about you).

[pieguyn]

I also might not respond immediately cos I have to eat in a few minutes.

also believe me I am capable of explaining the read, and I am more than capable of forming well-thought out reads as scum, which is a large part of why I find it so completely baffling that you keep claiming I'm "stalling" (despite this not being a thing that happens ever and something that I have no benefit to doing as scum) - I'm not, I just don't see any benefit to going into it in-depth right at this second.

[pieguyn]

how much does your "capability of forming well-thought out reads as scum" require time? cos this is d2 of IRL where you have been pushing my lynch w/o providing a well in-depth scumread on me while asking other players to explain their townread on me in depth.

I'm not a player who BS's reads as I go when I'm scum, I'm a very internally consistent scum player in that when I'm scum I am constantly emulating a consistent view of the game and drawing most of my reads from it. I don't need extra time to generate reads.

especially recently, it usually takes me a long time and requires a certain state of mind to explain reads in the way that I like because the thing that I hate the absolute most when I'm town is when people nitpick things that weren't actually the point I was attempting to make, or when people handwave points because there's some trivial issue that they're misinterpreting, or things along those lines, and I've seen a *lot* of it recently with the shift in site meta to a more concise play style (people have posted in this game that my "walls" were too long despite the fact that if you'll recall nothing I posted this game was long by my standards at all) - thus I like to take extra care to write out my posts in a way where everything is clear, people will actually read and listen to it and I'm sure there are no possible angles of attack on it.

[pieguyn]

while I don't mind answering questions about myself, I was expecting this to be a "hashing out reads for after I flip" thing. hypothetically, if Yume were to flip town (she will) and you were to flip town, where would you want me to look next?

[pieguyn]

you have got to be fucking kidding me.

GIF, what the fuck have you done? if you really made lynch Yume/vig mollie impossible, then oh my fucking god you are dead to me.

p-edit: I see your post, give me a sec.

[pieguyn]

okay

does this mean you technically do not have a problem with my multi-posting? cos you are kind of agreeing with me here when I say I do not want to post a wallish ketchup post but prefer to respond to each post individually.

so why am I scummy for I am "spamming"

I don't take issue with the multi-posting itself (I find wall posts more readable but people these days apparently think not reading walls is cool for *insert shit reason here*, but that's beside the point), what I take issue with is that everything you posted was completely nonsensical. it isn't a novel scum tactic to just write lots and lots of words in the hopes that people will see it and go "look at all of those words, so town" or "oo a huge fight, it's T/T" without thinking critically about it and realizing that none of it makes any sense.

hence, my description of it as "flooding the thread with nonsense".

foxbird. it is where tth and I kissmet.

Foxbird is town, and at this point that's actually the one read I'm not willing to compromise on no matter what barring significant change. the reason isn't something I want to say right now but it should become evident sometime down the road. I'm well aware of TTH's read, but what I have should override it. apart from that, *if* I'm wrong on you, I would be willing to step back and listen, yes.

I actually don't put it past UTL to do something like fake-clearing a townie as scum, so while I think she's more likely town, I don't have her as bet-the-game town or anything like that. I think if one of {UTL, Aris} is scum, they aren't scum together, it's either UTL fake-clearing a townie or UTL is town and somehow got a false result, but this only applies *if* one of them is scum (it is likely both are town).

I haven't had any issue with beegirl's posts, though I would be open to going back and looking at her again if you were to flip town.

I'm curious as to what your read on Layla is, since she's someone I've been looking at again recently.

the issue with going in-depth on the read on you is that even if this conversation is supposed to happen under the context of you having flipped town, if you're scum it still allows you to do the exact same thing I was hoping to avoid earlier (and still am hoping to avoid): try to make it look like you've refuted my read on you by posting things that are largely irrelevant to what I was actually posting. the entire reason I didn't immediately jump straight into posting the entire read in full is because if I posted it in the middle of our exchange, not only would it likely result in completely blowing up the thread unless I cut it off anyway, but no one would give a shit because "lel T/T argument too many words". I figured it would be more effective to get people talking about their reads on you first, and then go in-depth on it so that I could use it as a reference if there was demand for it.

[pieguyn]

1. you posted game-relevant information, but all of it was specious argumentation. again, I can go more in-depth on this, but I don't see much of a point.

2. the Foxbird read has nothing to do with her reads/stances today, it's for a completely separate reason.

3. there's no specific reason for why I'm not clearing UTL based on this, it just isn't an unusual scum strategy to fake-clear a player in order to get town read for "using your role in a town way". I've seen something similar to this in a recent game where Spiffeh as scum fake-guiltied his partner GreyICE, in a position where ICE probably would have been lynched but it would have required a lot of effort to do so, for this exact reason so he could get town read for "clearing up the ICE shitstorm" - no surprise I had to spend the entire rest of the game arguing against people who kept trying to claim that the way that he used his role was town. and yes, I'll look at beegirl in more depth if you flip town.

4. for what reason are you reading Layla as town?

5. the issue isn't that you would flip town, the issue is that I fear you'll find some bullshit way to get out of being lynched/vig'd especially with GIF claiming he pulled some dumb shit and not clarifying exactly what it was he did, and this is even more the case if I die overnight. half the game has already written you off as town due to "their interactions are T/T", I am interacting with you now solely for the end of being able to work together *if* you flip town and nothing more.

p-edit: I could easily see a team such as {you, Layla, Mala}, though I have no intention of calling the entire team right at this point.

[pieguyn]

do you want a tl;dr version of why my read on you is what it is?

your play D1 was really passive, and all of your pushes were really weak. most of the reasoning you gave behind your reads was really shallow. I first started to notice this about halfway through D1 or so.

I specifically noticed the read on TTH in 838 because it seemed entirely like a bullshit throwaway reason for town reading someone, and it was only based on one of TTH's posts, which didn't make sense in the context of the read. if you say someone is "cranky town", that's a read you would usually make based on their demeanor throughout a large portion of the game, not just one post that kinda-sorta looks irritated; that by itself usually wouldn't be something you'd even take note of unless there was a pattern of it. and the read on Mala in 1124 because it didn't read as legitimate at all, it felt more like a poor attempt at coming up with a catch phrase to emulate your unique style of reading people than something you would actually think. I thought that your scum read on beegirl was shallow and read more like a convenience push on someone pushing you, and I thought your Yume vote was similarly shallow.

come around to D2 and then you push me, which was your first strong push in the game, and the reason you started pushing me was my push on Luna. your reasoning behind it was complete shit, both me _and_ GIF had clearly explained to you, in depth, why your assessment of my posts was objectively false and that there was nothing about her being an SK until the point where she claimed vig and made it obvious that's what she was; your response was essentially "OK, but I'm still suspicious of you", which read more like you were hoping to keep your options open than anything, as opposed to committing to a firm stance either way. the fact that you hadn't made any strong pushes up to this point makes this a stronger point since I would expect that once you _did_ manage to come across something you could push strongly, you wouldn't want to let go of it easily, you'd want to keep pushing it so that people could no longer take note of you having no strong pushes.

from there, if it's not completely obvious, I thought your next posts towards me were a complete load of shit. I also thought the approach that you were taking of "I'm a treestump so it's not a good idea to lynch me for ... ~magical reasons~ ... and people pushing me are bad and/or scum" was scummy as hell and read exactly like how I would expect scum to play if they had fake claimed treestump with the goal of getting town read for it (obfuscation/The Mist).

and yes, that's the short version, and it's long enough where I suspect people will *still* write it off because it's too long. there is no "stalling" here, I just have no energy to put up with people who don't read even medium-length posts and saw no reason to get into it before unless I needed to, and you pushing that it's because I'm "stalling for reasons" is completely stupid because, duh, if that was my master scum plan here it would become completely obvious this is what was going on if someone asked me to explain the read on you only for me to never give any good explanation for it.

I'm not particularly interested in debating this, and I'm fully expecting that if you're scum you're going to do exactly what I said and try to make a big deal out of this and drag the thread into a huge argument by refuting it with a bunch of words that don't address any of what my points are, but you asked for it, so here.