Open 652- Making Friends and Enemies: Over

[Zyf]

Hmmm...I'm liking Hark more now.

Let's try this

VOTE: karnos

Hmm, is this a chainsaw?

You were interestingly absent from the Martha wagon. Are you texcat's partner?

I'm absent from the wagon because I disagree with it. Someone on it is scum. Right now, I think that could be you.

whoaaaaaaaa no
that's not ok
VOTE: penguin

[Loopdan]

I think I'm the only one openly resisting it. Zyf put her at L-1, so he doesn't count as resistant. Loop was basically catching up.

Zyf assuredly counts as defense, and Loop was defending her also.

I haven't defended Martha. In fact, I've said that I think Martha looked a bit scummy. I did express concern over her being speed-lynched this early in Day 1, though.

Why do you see Zyf as defending Martha?

[NJAC]

Zyf assuredly counts as defense, and Loop was defending her also.
It's also a duck of a question, you're acting like lack of defense equates to town (which is already a shaky reality, for example, I've defended Hark, I'm town, so it has no bearing on him being scum - ergo the tell is empty) and then choosing to rule out yourself and others without actually clarifying how much defense is needed.

Zyf put her at L-1, he didn't resist the wagon. Period. Surely I can see Martha's wagon was not that hard to defend, so why at least one of her supposed scum partners wouldn't try to release some pression on that wagon?

I don't say lack of defense equates to town every time, but in this specific game, given the way that wagon formed, I'm leaning to think she's town. Ergo the tell is not empty, because is not a generalization but rather a specifc tell on how things happened in this specific game.

Why are you even talking about how much defense is needed? It's not like there's a number or something. It obviously depends on context. It may happen that there's no defense at all, and still get a scum flip.

So, no, I'm not basing my read on that slot only on the lack of defense towards his wagon, but also on her reaction, with seems to me like genuine frustrated newbtown.

Who are the scum, and what makes them scum?

Still working on it. As I said I need to reread, but my focus is in {Thor, Harko, BBT, Naru, Io}.

Well...for starters, byher own admission she wasn't new.
But even if she was new (which is factually untrue) what prevents her from being frustrated newbscum in your eyes?
Really want an answer here.

She said she was an alt, she said she played in another site. I still think she's new to the standards of this site. I've seen this kind of frustration from newbtown before.

I might obviously be wrong and maybe that slot is scum, but my stance for now is that she's town. In fact texcat posts also feel town.

[Loopdan]

@Zyf -- Do you still think texcat is scum? If so, why did 318 outweigh your texcat read enough to move your vote?

[NJAC]

why at least one of her supposed scum partners wouldn't try to release some

pression

on that wagon?

EBWOP: why at least one of her supposed scum partners wouldn't try to release some

pressure

on that wagon?

[NJAC]

More later...

[Thor665]

I shouldn't have to explain this, but anyway:

texcat is town:
Scum lolhammers, gets lynched tomorrow- A+ result.
Scum realizes the "trap", doesn't lolhammer, texcat doesn't get lynched: A+ result.

texcat is scum:
I don't really want to unvote anyway.

Basically, it would be fine and nice if scum quick-hammers and gets caught, but if they don't than it means town!texcat has nothing to worry about. Not really a terrible result either way.

I haven't defended Martha

. In fact, I've said that I think Martha looked a bit scummy.

I did express concern over her being speed-lynched this early in Day 1

, though.

Why do you see Zyf as defending Martha?

Bold answers bold.

Here is Zyf defending Martha.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8311836
Took me like two seconds in his iso.
There are more.

Zyf put her at L-1, he didn't resist the wagon. Period.

Yes, he did put her at L-1, he also did defend her wagon - period.
Already gave one link to Loop, here's another one for you
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8311882

And, just like I told Loop, there are more.
What game are you reading? Zyf has continually danced around his opinion on that wagon. I can see thinking he is for it - but if you can seethat, then you also have to see that he is against it, because the reality is that he's flopping on it (reference Io's case on him - another player other than me able to spot the crazy concept that he is doing exactly what I'm saying)
Period?

Surely I can see Martha's wagon was not that hard to defend, so why at least one of her supposed scum partners wouldn't try to release some pression on that wagon?

This is a repeating of your original point - which I have responded to with a list of defenders that you're now debating.

Why are you even talking about how much defense is needed? It's not like there's a number or something. It obviously depends on context. It may happen that there's no defense at all, and still get a scum flip.

I agree.
What makes this specific lack of defense towny as opposed to NAI?

She said she was an alt, she said she played in another site. I still think she's new to the standards of this site. I've seen this kind of frustration from newbtown before.

I might obviously be wrong and maybe that slot is scum, but my stance for now is that she's town. In fact texcat posts also feel town.

What has texcat done that is alignment indicative to you? He's straight null on his own in my world.
Also, it's awkward as heck that you're straddling the fence of "she's not newb, but reacted newb, and thus my read is valid even if she claimed not newb" and is also a pretty aggressive dodge of why her newb is town newb as opposed to scum newb - which you haven't addressed.

[Save The Dragons]

The

Another day another vote count

Vote Count

5 texcat (Thor665, Narurider, karnos, BlueBloodedToffee, Io)

2 Zyf (NJAC, Loopdan)
1 Narurider (Dunnstral)
1 karnos (Penguin Power)
1 Not_Mafia (Harkonnen97)
1 Penguin Power (Zyf)
1 BlueBloodedToffee (texcat)


Not Voting: Not_Mafia

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day ends:
(expired on 2016-09-21 04:08:06)

[Zyf]

I also agree with the statement that I am flip-flopping
however, I do not consider that indicative of anything especially since I do it all the time
I'm sure the next time I get a scum PM I'll still flip-flop because it's just the way I play

[Io]

VOTE: Hark
I'm going to jump off the wagon for a bit and push some other scum.
Looking back at the Naru v Hark. Pretty sure that is TvS, notably Hark would be the scum.

fisrt 67 is a pointless question, and 95 is a horrible follow up because it's not even a logics conclusion if you looked at Naru's ISO up to that point as she did push Hark and Martha as scum. It's blaitent pulling stuff out of his ass.
Then there is his whole calling Martha a VI and trying to say they could still be scum but are just an idiot which isn't really a reason to unvote. I mean he occult just had a weird interpretation of VI but his reason for moving her to null because she is a VI in his eyes is not really a real reason. It looks almost like he is subtly trying to take the more than his fair share of the cake to be honest.
It is also a little weird how he called her a VI when the wagon he started was gaining a bit of traction, and from what I've seen voting scum partners first in RVS is decently common.

[Io]

Sorry I was leaving as I typed that last post.
I had one last point.
This post:

Zyf, you should distance your scumbuddy Martha by revoting her again. It will give you towncred when she flips scum.

It's pretty casual calling Martha scum (before the VI incident) and this just looks really scummy with how I was talking about in my last post with his interactions with Martha.
Pretty sure he is scum, but not sure if it's a red herring post trying to incriminate a townie alongside a bus partner (as is if he is trying to frame Zxf and Martha is scum), a double bus on both partners (which I find a little unlilely), or if he would be scum just throwing 2 slightly scummy names out to draw attention to them and push 2 mislynches at once.
It looks like he is probably trying to frame Zxf and save Martha at the same time now that he's pushing Zxf and not Martha anymore.

So with that being said I admit I am wrong and Zxf is probably a townie who is just having a hard time.

[Harkonnen97]

k

[Loopdan]

@Thor-- I was reading "defending" as "thinks Martha is town." I now get that isn't what you meant by it. Yes, I didn't want Martha lynched so quickly. But I don't see it as a very town slot (but a bit more so after the replace).

@Hark-- I'd like to hear your thought process on how your reads on Zyf and Martha have progressed since game start.

[Loopdan]

Zyf, did you miss this?

@Zyf -- Do you still think texcat is scum? If so, why did 318 outweigh your texcat read enough to move your vote?

[Dunnstral]

there is little difference between a wall and a long list of responses for me in terms of having to scroll for ages just to respond to the 1 part i need to respond to


but that's irrelevant so let's stop now

I am thoroughly confused as to who's scummy at this point other than martha, anyone have something to convince me?
VOTE: texcat

L-1 and I will come to your house and kick you in the shin if you lolhammer I swear

If you don't want someone lynched, don't put them to l-1

[Dunnstral]

As I was reading through the last 7 pages, I was starting to think I should unvote Matha. Some of her major "scum tell" posts were just a symptom of writing in a second language, IMO. But now that we have a texcat, I would like to keep the pressure on and see what comes of it.

If this is a wagon on town, maybe some scum will get greedy and go for the hammer. I'd gladly sacrifice a town today if it means we have a free scum lynch tomorrow. OTOH, the slot might be scum.

Either way, I'm fine with holding my vote as it is.

No need to actually scum hunt. Is that it?

Why expend all my energy running around trying to catch a scum when I might already have one right in front of me?

I shouldn't have to explain this, but anyway:

texcat is town:
Scum lolhammers, gets lynched tomorrow- A+ result.
Scum realizes the "trap", doesn't lolhammer, texcat doesn't get lynched: A+ result.

texcat is scum:
I don't really want to unvote anyway.

Basically, it would be fine and nice if scum quick-hammers and gets caught, but if they don't than it means town!texcat has nothing to worry about. Not really a terrible result either way.

This doesn't look like town

VOTE: karnos

[Zyf]

Sorry I was leaving as I typed that last post.
I had one last point.
This post:

Zyf, you should distance your scumbuddy Martha by revoting her again. It will give you towncred when she flips scum.

It's pretty casual calling Martha scum (before the VI incident) and this just looks really scummy with how I was talking about in my last post with his interactions with Martha.
Pretty sure he is scum, but not sure if it's a red herring post trying to incriminate a townie alongside a bus partner (as is if he is trying to frame Zxf and Martha is scum), a double bus on both partners (which I find a little unlilely), or if he would be scum just throwing 2 slightly scummy names out to draw attention to them and push 2 mislynches at once.
It looks like he is probably trying to frame Zxf and save Martha at the same time now that he's pushing Zxf and not Martha anymore.

So with that being said I admit I am wrong and Zxf is probably a townie who is just having a hard time.

You know what gives me a REAL hard time?
When people can't type 3 LETTERS correctly
multiple times

it's not that hard like pls "Z Y F"

that being said, considering their response to my bait-push on Martha post-claim, (not half as aggressive as I expected it to be coming from scum) I'm not sure that I agree they're scummy, though I agree with the stuff before being odd.

That being said, you did the same thing soooo

[Zyf]

As I was reading through the last 7 pages, I was starting to think I should unvote Matha. Some of her major "scum tell" posts were just a symptom of writing in a second language, IMO. But now that we have a texcat, I would like to keep the pressure on and see what comes of it.

If this is a wagon on town, maybe some scum will get greedy and go for the hammer. I'd gladly sacrifice a town today if it means we have a free scum lynch tomorrow. OTOH, the slot might be scum.

Either way, I'm fine with holding my vote as it is.

No need to actually scum hunt. Is that it?

Why expend all my energy running around trying to catch a scum when I might already have one right in front of me?

I shouldn't have to explain this, but anyway:

texcat is town:
Scum lolhammers, gets lynched tomorrow- A+ result.
Scum realizes the "trap", doesn't lolhammer, texcat doesn't get lynched: A+ result.

texcat is scum:
I don't really want to unvote anyway.

Basically, it would be fine and nice if scum quick-hammers and gets caught, but if they don't than it means town!texcat has nothing to worry about. Not really a terrible result either way.

This doesn't look like town

VOTE: karnos

in response to the last post that I'm not going to quote: I'd like the pressure to get texcat to either slip up or actually do something properly AI

[Zyf]

in response to the post i accidentally didn't post my whole response to:
I feel like karnos is to brazen about it to actually constitute scum. IDK, may change my mind later, but not until there's a flip.

[Zyf]

Zyf, did you miss this?

@Zyf -- Do you still think texcat is scum? If so, why did 318 outweigh your texcat read enough to move your vote?

Oh shoot, whoops, my bad.

I'd rather not interpret a replace-out as indicative of alignment, but as of right now, they're nullscummy until they do something properly AI
in any case, there are other wagons to push to get more info out of that we can't do with textcat, and I don't want a lolhammer rn

Penguin's post is a serious problem because they are using dislike of a push to excuse a lack of activity, when if you think a push is bad it's the best time for you to be scumhunting with less bias.

[Thor665]

I also agree with the statement that I am flip-flopping
however, I do not consider that indicative of anything especially since I do it all the time
I'm sure the next time I get a scum PM I'll still flip-flop because it's just the way I play

The question is not that reality (except for NJAC) the question is whether your defense counts as theory defense of Martha and how that does or does not feed in to his stance about her wagon being town due to that.
For this discussion, your alignment is relatively meaningless unless she flips scum, and then for NJAC maybe you'd be a theory buddy.

But I don't see it as a very town slot (but a bit more so after the replace).

People keep saying this.
I'll repeat what I've been saying - his slot seems very null to me on its own, so I have no idea why he's changing any opinions.

[Loopdan]

@Zyf-- I wanted to know where you were with your texcat read because right before you moved your vote off of him, you were telling him (scum in your mind) that he shouldn't townread Thor so easily.

Why were you treating him like town if he is a scum-read?

Out of the people on your wagon, who is your biggest bet on being scum?

My vote is on BBT because I thought he was a better player than he's shown by his vote on Martha. I'm interested in seeing his reply. But Karnos now looks like a possibility. Or else he's really lazy town.
And I have a town read on Thor because he didn't have any problem communicating the case on me. He looks like he's actually scum hunting.

I suggest you don't give Thor a free townread. Him looking like he is scumhunting is NAI for him.

I suggest you don't give Thor a free townread. Him looking like he is scumhunting is NAI for him.

agree

[PenguinPower]

Penguin's post is a serious problem because they are using dislike of a push to excuse a lack of activity, when if you think a push is bad it's the best time for you to be scumhunting with less bias.

Comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I'm scumhunting just fine, and I'm pretty sure I've found one.

[Io]

Sorry I was leaving as I typed that last post.
I had one last point.
This post:

Zyf, you should distance your scumbuddy Martha by revoting her again. It will give you towncred when she flips scum.

It's pretty casual calling Martha scum (before the VI incident) and this just looks really scummy with how I was talking about in my last post with his interactions with Martha.
Pretty sure he is scum, but not sure if it's a red herring post trying to incriminate a townie alongside a bus partner (as is if he is trying to frame Zxf and Martha is scum), a double bus on both partners (which I find a little unlilely), or if he would be scum just throwing 2 slightly scummy names out to draw attention to them and push 2 mislynches at once.
It looks like he is probably trying to frame Zxf and save Martha at the same time now that he's pushing Zxf and not Martha anymore.

So with that being said I admit I am wrong and Zxf is probably a townie who is just having a hard time.

You know what gives me a REAL hard time?
When people can't type 3 LETTERS correctly
multiple times

I thought it was an x and didn't feel like looking it up.

[Zyf]

@Zyf-- I wanted to know where you were with your texcat read because right before you moved your vote off of him, you were telling him (scum in your mind) that he shouldn't townread Thor so easily.

Why were you treating him like town if he is a scum-read?

Out of the people on your wagon, who is your biggest bet on being scum?

My vote is on BBT because I thought he was a better player than he's shown by his vote on Martha. I'm interested in seeing his reply. But Karnos now looks like a possibility. Or else he's really lazy town.
And I have a town read on Thor because he didn't have any problem communicating the case on me. He looks like he's actually scum hunting.

I suggest you don't give Thor a free townread. Him looking like he is scumhunting is NAI for him.

I suggest you don't give Thor a free townread. Him looking like he is scumhunting is NAI for him.

agree

I was just confirming the statement for general purposes
since IMO hark and I aren't scumbuddy-like