Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[Chuck]

Ryan, the thing you were supposed to see that you missed was that the Martha flip makes me look bad as well. So me saying that it makes expedience look bad, is immaterial, for purposes of reading my alignment. Or as new scummer a would say, it's NAI. Martha dying made me look bad because she was the one that I suspected the most coming into today besides Expedience. And after she died all I could do was point at Expedience.

It's completely illogical that scum would want to night-kill a scum read as they have a really high chance of being able to mislynch them.

Okay Spock, here's what you've been missing. If it is illogical for scum to nightkill someone they are pretending to have a scum read on, then it is also illogical for you to have a scum read on me because then that is exactly what would have just happened with Martha. The only possible plus would be if I were to do that as scum, on purpose, to try to spin WIFOM about it the next day. Which, if one were so inclined, one could say I am doing at this very moment. But if I was, then why would I point that out? Yet more WIFOM. Eat your heart out. The point is, your entire conclusion was illogical at its core.[/quote]

It made Expedience look bad because she had expressed suspicion of have a number of times and it looked like a kill meant to silence her.

As I said, Vedith killed 0x40 and stated it was an attempt by Vaxkiller to silence 0x40. Vedith was scum and I think I can expect the same from this.

I'm sorry, I'm completely lost. You are referring to a different game? I can't possibly defend myself against something someone did in another game, so I won't even try, but I will say this: anything can be made to look almost any way, as long as someone chooses to see it that way. Rationalization is a real thing that real people do. Manipulation is also a real thing that real people do. Mafia players do it more than most.

As for how Glitch flipping town makes Expedience look bad, it's because he basically single-handedly drove that wagon directly into a mislynch.

Also his argument against to me was based entirely on me being too sure that Glitch was town, when 1) Glitch had already made some very alignment indicative statements after his hammer had gone through, and 2) all I said was "if Glitch flips town", which means he was blowing it way out of proportion just to have a reason to suspect me.

1)What were they?
2)That looks like fact.

1)

I don't claim or soft claim or any of whatever that is for a PR. I'm literally just a VT – and even with my post saying regardless of what I am [scum, vt, pr] I would claim vt, I'll outright just say I'm not PR or scum and am just a plain little VT. xDDD

RyanK and gameplay are confusing af.

When I flip, check out Expedience and me and the association we have. I'd be shocked if he's scum.

Oh. I died. lol welp
Give me tips on how to not die next time y'all

That screams town to anyone who's not an idiot. At least, it screams town to me. And I like to think I'm not an idiot.

2) I don't know how to respond to this. However, if anything, I was *more* sure that he would flip town, than I think I made it seem. He looked very, very, *very* town at the point which I made post 1364.

If you're actually town, no offense. If you're scum, please pick a different strategy than feigned incompetence, because it is starting to get on my nerves, and I'm a really patient person.

But factually, I really don't know what to think about this any more. UNVOTE:

Hopefully everything is clear to you now.

Now, please... Vote... Expedience.

[Chuck]

Saru, Dierfire, pitoli, and Cass, what do you think about:

1. MathBlade?
2. rb vs. BBT?
3. Expedience?

House, answer these too please.

Thanks for replacing in btw. Good to see a familiar face.

(...since I've seen the show, not since I know you. Ha... It was funny to me, shut up)

[RyanK]

@Mod:

Replace me out. I've got other more worthwhile things to do.

[House]

Ryan. It's weird. Makes me want to lynch Ryan more, just to see what he flips.
And Martha: Expedience starts attacking Martha, but then decides she is completely town and defends her a lot too.

Then he goes after me, but denies my association with Martha

- protecting Martha again.

Ran across this post during my cross-ISO of Cass while reading up on BBT.

Cass, please explain the bolded. Who are you suspecting of scum in that scenario? Ryan? Martha? Ryan and Martha both? Yourself and Ryan? Because it reads like the last.

[Chuck]

@RyanK: If you are replacing out because of me:

[RyanK]

Nope. I'm replacing out because I'm interested in [redacted].

[Dierfire]

@House

(one mentioned example, expressing suspicion of Naomi-Tan in 88 for mentioning Daytalk, works well as an illustration of what I mean--I would expect a Mafia player to actually check how Naomi-Tan knew this information before making the vote).

Why would a newbie mafia ask town how they knew the information when they already know that town can't know it except by the op since that player is not scum?

Experienced scum might be more likely to ask, in order to cover their own ass, but newbscum are more prone to tripping up on their own knowledge.

That's my point precisely! I am saying that RyanK asking Naomi-Tan how she knew about the number of Mafia players makes RyanK unlikely to be Mafia, because if RyanK were Mafia he would first go looking to answer that question himself.

[Chuck]

Nope. I'm replacing out because I'm interested in [redacted].

Well then...

[Dierfire]

@Saru

You'd asked about my updated read on rb since the very early game. Did you miss this, or did you want me to elaborate (or both)?

(initially this was for the way that rb helped move the game out of RVS, but I think that stronger evidence would be the way that rb shows evidence of reading the game over again starting in 659 with some read progression)

The short version is that in 659 (and onward), rb makes a visible attempt to read over things again, and adjusts reads in a manner that I found to be consistent with taking a fresh look to sort alignments.

You'd also asked whether it bothered me to see votes accumulating on golden009 (now MathBlade). It didn't! I've previously encountered this line of thought, but in general I feel good when other players want to vote the same player that I do.

Finally, you'd asked for my read on you. I'm working on that right now.

[House]

This large wagon swing makes me feel like scum were definitely in on it, even if not necessarily leading it.

I agree with Glitch however, that if he flips town, Expedience looks more town due to the claim duel thing.

That makes me suspect that either/both of RyanK and Martha Zolanski would be the scum he was a counter wagon to.

The fact that he was mostly gone during his wagon's growth is also a deciding factor in that it was a bad wagon.

It's disappointing that you guys didn't at least wait until I got back. Pushing through a wagon on the weekend is bad form even when people haven't announced V/LA.

This is immediately after Glitch was hammered. I feel like this post is expecting Glitch to flip town because it only overs scenarios where this is the case. like he starts with "if he flips town" then devolves into outright assumption

It's unreasonable for town!Chuck to presume a town flip here, his post where he realized he wa hammered actually looked like a scumclaim to me (since it showed his aim was survival (however his play before that was pretty town and made my heart sink reading it)). Chuck never took a stance on Glitch, just let it happen and then tried to set up new pushes afterwards, but he did it slightly too prematurely.

The CLAIM DUEL thing is something that happened a while ago, Glitch didn't really bring anything revelatory to light there. Chuck could've made his own evaluation of the CLAIM DUEL when he made that post about how oddly interested he was in the claims of two town members. This is a really unnatural progression and shows that he didn't really believe all the crap he was throwing at me before. All the suspicion on me is completely gone! It's probably because he mistakenly thought I was a PR (and didn't notice that Martha was one?).

VOTE: Chuck

So you're voting Chuck, who dropped his suspicion of you because he thought you were a PR, and killed Martha, who WAS a PR... that he didn't notice was one?

Please explain, I'm confused as shit.

[House]

Saru, Dierfire, pitoli, and Cass, what do you think about:

1. MathBlade?
2. rb vs. BBT?
3. Expedience?

House, answer these too please.

In due time.

Thanks for replacing in btw. Good to see a familiar face.

(...since I've seen the show, not since I know you. Ha... It was funny to me, shut up)

[House]

VC 1.15

Martha Zolanski (5)

: Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb, RyanK

VC 1.39

Glitch (7)

: Expedience, rb, gameplay506, Martha Zolanski, Dierfire, BlueBloodedToffee, pitoli

Putting these here for when I have the time to look into them.

I really feel like both of these VCs point towards rb being scum.

Why just rb? Why not Expedience?

[House]

Empty null is usually exactly where scum sit.

Generalizations are always wrong.


cwutididthar?

[House]

VC 1.13

Dierfire (5)

: Saru, golden009, rb, Cass, Martha Zolanski

VC 1.15

Martha Zolanski (5)

: Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb, RyanK

Want these in my ISO so I remember to look over them.

That was a quick transition.

Yes, that is an interesting part. We were on Dierfire, then he made a decent post, then I made a case on martha (489), Pitoli & Golden vaguely sheeped me but without voting. Martha defends against my case and her and me get into a fight that's mostly misunderstandings and language-issues, I think (it's pretty unreadable, I apologize for my part in that). Then Pitoli (497) notes that Martha's and my posts 'synch up', and we could be following eachother onto wagons. (Note when ISO-ing: Martha here increases the confusion by posting a few times with and ALT account, keyenpeydee.)
Now Pitoli votes Martha, and Martha votes Ryan. Rb likes Dierfire's post and joins the Martha wagon, starts pushing it, as does Pitoli. Now Expedience (replaced Naomi) joins the wagon, but still thinks Dierfire is scum too. (

509 - This one reinforces my scumread on Expedience.

) Rb feels the wagon is going too fast now, too easy (

I can see what he means...

) and unvotes Martha (also calls Saru, Pitoli and Golden town). Expedience attacks Martha and defends Ryan. Based on this - I think because he's somehow reassured that Expedience is town (

unlike me

) -, rb revotes Martha(523.
(

Off topic: Post 528 makes me wonder if I could be wrong about gameplay; could he be Expedience's partner?

)
Now Martha says she can't defend herself because there are 'scums' on her wagon (wagon is now (4): Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb). Martha starts to panic, suggests self-hammering, calls her own wagon good, etc. Now Ryan joins the wagon (

can't blame him, really

), making it L-2.

We are now at 550 (the second vote-count). What happens right after this is also interesting. The wagon weakens, as Ryan and Expedience back off. (

Omg, expedience looks so scummy doing that.

)
Then in 578 with just 3 votes on her, Martha soft-claims (maybe explaining the earlier panic?). After that, almost everyone (including me) backs off.

I think I'm going to be reading 475-550 during night phase for entertainment value alone.

[MathBlade]

Yes and it is always annoying as shit.

I can do it too

[MathBlade]

Pedit That was meant about generalizations.

My phone doesn't fucking do the alerts

[House]

No, because the amount of white noise that town is producing is insane.

SO MUCH THIS! I cannot emphasize how much more difficult town are making this game. It's almost impossible to gain reads because of the amount of bullshit that is going on.

People need to post less and when they do post, post more content because this game is an absolute joke right now.

After the way you entered the game, you have the stones to say this?

[House]

Yeah. Here's why.

That post assumes I am town, does it not? If you ISO me before that post, I had posted NOTHING of content. My predecessor hadn't even posted so I don't know why the hell rb is assuming I am town in that post.

Compare it to this post later on;

Hey BlueBloodedToffee if you're town can you just come demolish this scumlord with me? Thanks.

I really hope BBT is town because if he is we win.

And the first one could be a legit slip.

That's actually a good point. A really good point.

[House]

Okay so it's TvT, let's assume we're right and dese fights are generally TvT. That means the town we can bet on are:

Chuck
Expedience
Saru
rb
gameplay

We lynch from outside that pool?

Why would you not think of yourself first when listing town, if you are town?

As the next to last name in your own list of "town we can bet on", you look like you added your name in almost as an afterthought.

[Dierfire]

So, I'm reading Saru in ISO.

The defining feature of Saru's game, for me, is his persistent suspicion of me. The initial vote for me in 189 on the basis that my early vote was weaker than my votes in previous games was fairly thoughtless. We argued for a long time before I was able to communicate what was going on. I thought that we were finally on the same page in 1158, but by 1465 I'm back in the lynch pool, apparently for being difficult to figure out. In 1568 Saru is inordinately suspicious of my 1557--although some of this is attributable to the usual misunderstandings, the accusation that my read on rb is a result of rb reading me as Town during their recent argument (having spent a good portion of the game focused on my entrance and the read on rb as Town within), reads to me like an attempt to fake suspicion.

Saru expresses suspicion of golden009 for following his vote on me. Given that Saru was recently thinking that I should have liked my vote less when more players joined it, it's possible that this represents the theoretical way that Saru approaches the game.

Obviously I disagree with the suspicion of RyanK, but as I've elaborated at length, I think that it's reasonable for a Town player to be suspicious of RyanK, so I can't say that it makes Saru especially likely to be Mafia.

When rb mentions Saru (1514 says that Saru is either Town or lurking Mafia), Saru calls this a contradiction. This is also a fairly bad line of reasoning, for reasons that have been elaborated already (rb had other reasons to read me as Town, my activity was appreciably higher than Saru's even when taking into account the fact that Saru makes larger single posts while I make multiple shorter posts, rb didn't say that Saru was lurking Mafia), but seems to have cleared up since.

Overall, I've been disagreeing with most everything of consequence that Saru has said (although this is easy as most of his attention has fallen on me and rb, whom I'm reading as Town). In attempting to distinguish the source of disagreement, I'm unable to find strong evidence that Saru's posts are coming from a Mafia perspective. With just a hint of an exaggerated suspicion in 1568, this read is slightly to the Mafia side of Null.

Updating my read on MathBlade is my next task tonight.

[House]

People will sheep my because I'm BBT though.

You know this.

I loled my pants.

[House]

Meta'ing people of a single game is also poor scum hunting.

Poor, yes. But proof of scum?

Does town not engage in "poor scum hunting"?

[House]

Your town read on Math is pretty important because it made you abandon the largest wagon in the game to vote WITH a previous scum read.

So yeah, it's kind of important.

Valid point, I can see where BBT is coming from here.

[House]

Nah, what's important is that you explain your scumread on Math.

Also stop trying to misrep and throw shade already. Golden was an early-game TOWNREAD for me, but their disappearance once their slot was out of focus looked scummy, they just went off the map. Math's entrance is game-solving and townlike. So I'm fine with putting Golden as town since they were a compromise lynch. Town BBT is smart enough to understand this.

Ah, right on then. Fair enough.

[House]

Man, I really want rb to be town so I can gloat post-game.

We should lynch Math. He is scum.

PEdit - Nah.

Wait...

rb is a scumread of yours... but you want him to be town... so you can gloat... about being wrong?

idontgetit