Mini 1837: Family Mafia (GAME OVER)

[UpTooLate]

Vote Count 3.07

Ranmaru - [1] Camn
Elyse - [1] Dramonic
Dramonic - [2] Nachomamma8, gigabyteTroubadour
Camn - [1] Ranmaru
SirCakez -
Gamma Emerald -
gigabyteTroubadour - [1] Elyse
Nachomamma8 - [1] SirCakez

Not Voting - [1] Gamma Emerald

With

8

alive it takes

5

to lynch!

Mod Notes - Happy Tuesday! Gamma Emerald replaced House!

Day 3 ends in (expired on 2016-10-29 13:25:43).

[camn]

Don't play coy with me, nacho. You know as well as I do that scum 101 is to keep everyone on the table.

Ranmaru: you are really saying I buddy my partner like crazy the entire game?

[Ranmaru]

Yes I am.

[Ranmaru]

More Camn votes please.

[dramonic]

OK looking though a few ISOs I see SirCakez is cop, camn is doc. Are there any other claims? Also, what is the case on Elyse and Dramonic?

Camn didn't claim doc, she's just posturing.

More Camn votes please.

k.

vote: camn

[Nachomamma8]

Don't play coy with me, nacho. You know as well as I do that scum 101 is to keep everyone on the table.

Scum 101 is to make some townfriends that won't lynch you, mislynch the low hanging fruit that isn't your partner, and then feed into your townfriend's paranoia in order to make it the rest of the distance. Scum 101 is not to push a case on a player, reanalyze, back off, push someone else, reanalyze, back off, push someone else; it's too much work and scum try to avoid flipflopping so publicly. I also don't think he'd be this comfortable playing as scum right now; we were scumbuds in an off-site game while this one was going on and his play there looks absolutely nothing like his play here.

[dramonic]

mislynch the low hanging fruit

*coughhypocriticalcough*

[Nachomamma8]

note the use of the word "mislynch"

[dramonic]

Oh it's definitely noted.

[Nachomamma8]

okay well note it again except not that that smug/snarky way

[Nachomamma8]

She put Giga on the shortlist for culling on something that seemed legitimate, but only because Postie seemed like she had a problem with, she along with it.

A couple of problems with this.
First, this happened on page 1. If you are factoring anything that happened on page 1 into your overall read you need to take a step back and let it go because that shit doesn't matter anymore.
Second, you are criticizing camn for agreeing with Postie's reasoning. As an isolated event, this is a useless tell; people play different ways and agreeing with someone is not an inherently scummy action.

She stated she was giving you a D1 pass yet she threw that away and was fine with joining your wagon.

This is a contradiction, yes. But is it scummy?
Camn said that I am someone that she would generally extend a day 1 pass to. Have you ever extended people Day 1 passes before? The general idea behind it is that the players you are giving the pass two are strong enough where the potential of what they can do for town (scumhunting, kill drawing potential, etc) is too large to risk lynching them Day 1 except under some pretty wacky circumstances. Now, if camn was reading me scum and was bothered by my opening as she said she was, how exactly is she supposed to react? Is she not supposed to question my actions at all? If her scumhunting style is typically pushing people and getting a bead on their reactions, does that mean the townie thing to do is completely ignore her feelings on me because she publicly stated that she was giving me a free pass?

Her #407 shows her trying to shade House when she has been budding him earlier.

I don't understand why you can't have suspicions on someone who you are buddying up to as town, which seems to be the meat of your point here. Could you explain your thought process for me here?

Her votes were on lynchbait, and I think scum would prefer those over others as it's easier to target them then others who have seemed townier.

1) I'm not lynchbait.
2) What pushes from her on low-hanging fruit do you feel weren't genuine? I don't feel like pushing on someone because of their targets is good enough; sometimes townies suspect lynchbait and sometimes townies defend scum. What pushes has she made here that you don't think she would make as town and why?

Her claiming PGO reeks of scum who wants to have a reason for staying alive for the night when she's been yelling that she'd be nk'd.

Do you really think that scum!camn thought that people expected her to die N1 so powerfully that she decided she needed to fake a PGO role that would explain her surviving one night? I don't think most players expect to be questioned after surviving one night. I don't think any players expect to be questioned after surviving one night.

[SirCakez]

OK looking though a few ISOs I see SirCakez is cop, camn is doc. Are there any other claims? Also, what is the case on Elyse and Dramonic?

I didn't claim cop, Camn was fakeclaiming. She is bulletproof of some sorts though.
Nacho has a bs Elyse case even though Kraska tunneled her extensively and doesn't like to bus. Nacho is probably scum.
Dramonic is just your standard lurker wagon.

I am not willing to wagon Nacho anymore.

Why not?

Camn if you're town you need to be convincing me

[Nachomamma8]

I read my #912 and was reminded that Kraska never actually responded to Elyse's second question. That gives Elyse town points.

Could you explain how scum not responding to someone's question means that they can't be scum together or why it is less likely?

Nacho still has the concern of asking Kraska a question and concluding it after 50 posts.

What? Is your implication here that every question has to go somewhere?

Kraska added her vote to a failing wagon, but she has been pressing on Elyse for quite a bit.

Kraska parroted my points and went "vote Elyse with me!". This is not significant action to push a lynch.

I think Elyse gave good points in her #1367.

I need you to break this down for me. What compelling points has Elyse given, exactly?
Is it when she spun the narrative to make it look like Kraska pushed her to L-1? She implied that kraska was the one who pushed her wagon when it reality the votes that swung the momentum were Postie's/SpyreX's/Zito's and kraska had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Was it her very compelling argument of "why would kraska distance when kraska could push a townie"? The point of distancing is to set up for town cred down the road. The point of lynching a townie is to move closer to your goal in the short term.
Was it that "kraska really meant to push my wagon through"? Kraska asked people to vote Elyse and Kraska agreed with my points. Kraska did this a lot, but Kraska's push was not any more advanced than that. I have no doubt that Kraska wanted to look like she wanted Elyse's wagon to go through when the Postie/SpyreX/Zito triumvirate pushed her; it'd be a shame to waste all of that good distancing by backing off the second the scumbuddy you were pushing gets in trouble.
Was it her argument that scumbuddies only distance with original reasoning because they want distancing to look good? Hint: there is no motivation to make a bad case. As scum, you want good arguments on townies so it doesn't look as bad when you lynch them. As scum, you want good arguments on buddies so it looks better when you lynch them.
Her argument for me being scum with kraska makes no sense; I didn't need support.
Let's look at initial reactions to after I voted Elyse:

Spoiler:

Your AtE is not convincing

That hellfire wasnt hellfirey enough but this wagon makes me sad.

I kinda like Nacho's responses, tbh.

I'm not really buying that Elyse as town would stretch quite that much

I really wish I could agree with you.

329 makes me want to both scumread Elyse for how fake it sounds and townread her for how ballsy the push is.

Yeah same her push seems unconditionally strong considering the gamestate
I was iffy on nacho But that last post on elyse was bad...it just seems really weak, like "here, have a vote"

Elyse's case was a pile of crap and Nacho tore it to shreds. More interesting is Elyse refuses to back down afterwards.

well met

I am entreating the blood gods for a miracle vig. Please oh miracle vig deliver us the dead bodies, amen.

The only people who didn't like my responses to Elyse were A) Cakez, who has been tunneling me all game and B) Kraska herself. Funny how if Kraska thought that I needed support that she would immediately throw shade on my response to Elyse after a few townies gave their endorsement of it, right? Also notice how kraska only started supporting my case after it got a positive response and people still didn't end up following it; Elyse paints the picture of Kraska saving a scumbuddy in trouble but that's not at all like it went down (she also implies I was getting heat at that stage; when kraska voted me, it was far beyond that point).

Or is it the part where she thinks I'm trying to avoid responsibility for lynching her by not voting her?
Was that the part that swayed you?

[Nachomamma8]

so why focus on Elyse to give more reads than nacho and not the other way around as well?

"hey what are your reads other than nacho?" is a very very easy way for scum to tell their partner to talk about reads on people other than nacho because the nacho tunnel is not going so well.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't see how that was an unreasonable question from kraska though; what were Elyse's reads at the time she made that post? can you name any other than me?

[Nachomamma8]

simply because scum don't 'need to' distance on page 3 doesn't mean they won't do it.

I don't know why you brought distancing between scumpartners up when that wasn't the subject of discussion at all. Elyse's argument was that my initial push on kraska was so terrible that I had to distance myself from it. That was a bullshit argument.

If they were both scum I would expect their interaction to be calculated, and finished.

And this is just a weird expectation. This just reads like you

feel

scum finish their interactions and don't really have anything beyond that which is lame.

Nacho did seem like he had an awkward interaction with Kraska, and never concluded it until 50 posts later.

I asked a question. I don't give in thread conclusions with every question. The only reason it became a big deal in the first place is because Cakez and others threw such a big shitfit over it.

[Ranmaru]

@

Sir Cakes

: Because I'm more confident on Camn/Gamma today. Think it's possible Elyse v Nacho is TvT?
@

Nacho

: Did you consider that Elyse v You could be TvT? Did you consider that Kraska was focusing on Elyse!town and you!town as town to spread misinformation?

I'll get to your responses in a bit.

[Nachomamma8]

@Sir Cakes: Because I'm more confident on Camn/Gamma today. Think it's possible Elyse v Nacho is TvT?

you haven't been reading sir cakez's posts have you

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: Did you consider that Elyse v You could be TvT? Did you consider that Kraska was focusing on Elyse!town and you!town as town to spread misinformation?

I've considered worlds where Elyse is town but Kraska doesn't really have anything to do with it.

[Nachomamma8]

Your case on House seemed to be "House sheeped a lot".
I don't deny that it would be cool if he did his own thing ever but sheeping isn't exactly a scumtell.

[camn]

I'll try Cakez... Let's start here: by your own logic, kraska tried pretty hard to get me lynched... And he doesn't like to bus?

Fyi everyone... I fly back to Asia 30 hours from now. So I'll be a little disjointed until then. But I'm still here.

I am gonna half claim alright now, just for grins..and to add to the fun.
I'm loved, and will take 6 to lynch.

[Ranmaru]

Nacho - On Camn

:

1. Anything is game, I disagree with this. Everyone has their role pm's before the game starts and it influences their actions even in early game. My point is it was jumpy.

2. A day 1 pass means you give a person a pass regardless to see what they produce on the next day. If it was only on the condition the player is null the whole time you'd give them a pass anyway since you don't find them town or scummy. I don't think your wagon was good enough for her to reconsider the D1 pass. There's a reason she would give you a D1 pass and going back on it defeats that reason. Proposing the D1 pass doesn't seem genuine in the first place, due to defeating that purpose.

3. At the time it seemed like buddying to setup House. She was never trying to determine House's alignment, and the posts about his 'internal dissonance' seem more like distancing now that House's slot has shown it self to be scum. Buddying is null but if you do it without trying to determine a person's alignment, it's suspicious.

4. Not you, I was talking about Spicy and then Hiplop at the time. Her push on me. Notice how she's having a hard time responding to you now. She's only pushing me because she's in danger of death. What do you think of her response to your flip flopping point? What do you think of her lack of response to your meta/re-analyzing point?

5. Yes. Why fake claim PGO in the first place then?

[Ranmaru]

Your case on House seemed to be "House sheeped a lot".
I don't deny that it would be cool if he did his own thing ever but sheeping isn't exactly a scumtell.

That's quite the watered down version of what I was saying, man.

[Nachomamma8]

hey camn before you go to asia vote elyse with me

Vote: Elyse

[Nachomamma8]

Your case on House seemed to be "House sheeped a lot".
I don't deny that it would be cool if he did his own thing ever but sheeping isn't exactly a scumtell.

That's quite the watered down version of what I was saying, man.

but that's essentially what you're saying, right?
house sheeped constantly. and when he wasn't sheeping, he was making easy votes.