Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

I will admit that refusing to answer is pretty suspicious.

Did I not answer? Do you really believe that I didn't give an answer to the question he asked??

[Alisae]

My reads goes as follows.
Scum: Pep
Other potential scum: Nyd, DBW, Charloux
Town: Ramcius, Mewtaph, Accountant, myself.

Pep has been lurking up to this point. And you may think it's due to inactivity, but I doubt that. Like he's posting in gaps, and if he was town, he's someone I'd expect to be more active and vocal. He's moreso reserved and safe leading up to his posts today. Also he shows no interest in scumhunting.
Not having anyone voted at this point in time tells me you have no real scum reads. This also goes for DBW, who's also lurking, except I don't know them. Either way I see them as a potential partner.
I can see Charloux being paired up with Pep easily. Charloux goes after lurkers but ignores Pep. This seems off to me.
As for Nyd, I'm following Accountant's reasoning and logic moreso then Nyd's on Accountant. Or they could just both be town, which I see happening.

Your only real strong points are that I was innactive for a bit and that I'm not interested in scumhunting. Now let me tell ya, I am interested in scumhunting. Actually I'm trying to achieve that. Kinda hard when you can't really find a place in the disscussion till now. My prime targets till now were Accountatn and Ramicius. Two people you put as Town on your list. Yet you almost haven't touched on anything those 2 people have said till now. And there one of the most active people in the game till now. Most of the post I read from you are on my posts and going againt me. You have a personal agenta? Or you just want to get me out of the game as soon as possible since I'm gonna be the easiest target for you? Let me also point out that I hate when people just say that they are confirmed town in there opinion and put it like it's something normal. For me it's a veyr scummy move and one that should not be neglected. What makes you think you are a town?

You not voting should also be considered a valid point.
You have shown nothing to prove that you are scumhunting, and currently you're just defending yourself.
What about Ramicius seemed scummy to you?
I think your scum, and I want the town to win? That's sorta what I'm trying to do here.

And you're reading my reads wrong. You wanna know a tell I recently just learned? Scum trying to push things that aren't slips. Because scum LOVE having a justified vote. Saying that I am slipping for reading them as confirmed town is a mistake, becuase I am not reading them as confirmed town, I am reading them as I think they are town.

And what makes me think I'm town? My role pm.

[Alisae]

Nyd, when it comes to the Anti-Town and Scummy issue, I am going to let our IC answer that. Becuase he honestly can probably provide a better answer then I could.

[nydushermain]

No, I want the answer from you because YOU'RE the one calling me anti-town.

[Pepchoninga]

I belive you passivness and overall neutral behaviur comes from a well collected scum thinking.

Why not a well-collected town thinking?

Because why would town play like that? You are already putting your name more then enough, since you have been the most active player till now and if you are town you are gonna be an obvious target. In your situation it would be more beneficial if you actually standed out and really started pushing every botton and going against every possible Scum. On the other side you could be mafia and deluding us of actualy doing anything by asking questions but in a sence not doing anything with the information you've gathered. And now after you see you have people that belive you, you started being a bit more offensive on Ny. Thats is what's concerning me. I don't see your clear Town persona that you are really trying to force on us.

That's factually incorrect. The three people mainly going against me were accountant, ramcius, and then alisae. Accountant voted on me first AND accused me first. So you can't say that accountant is scum for going on the offensive "after people started believing him" because he went on the offensive before that. I agree though that I think accountant is doing NOTHING with the information that he is gathering, or to be clearer, is refusing to take in the information.

No I mean he knew that people belived he was town, so he got more confident in going against you. It just seemed strange. From that point onward he has seemed more aggressive and does want to lynch you. I also cannot not see that Alis has almost not talked about Accountant and does seems to agree with everything he does and even tho he seems to have me for his prime target for absoulutely laughable reasons he goes against the target of Accountant. He does also start being cocky and being a bitch which for me has no place in a mafia game.

[nydushermain]

If I'm town, do you think that accountant's actions have been pro town at all?

[nydushermain]

I belive you passivness and overall neutral behaviur comes from a well collected scum thinking.

Why not a well-collected town thinking?

Because why would town play like that? You are already putting your name more then enough, since you have been the most active player till now and if you are town you are gonna be an obvious target. In your situation it would be more beneficial if you actually standed out and really started pushing every botton and going against every possible Scum. On the other side you could be mafia and deluding us of actualy doing anything by asking questions but in a sence not doing anything with the information you've gathered. And now after you see you have people that belive you, you started being a bit more offensive on Ny. Thats is what's concerning me. I don't see your clear Town persona that you are really trying to force on us.

That's factually incorrect. The three people mainly going against me were accountant, ramcius, and then alisae. Accountant voted on me first AND accused me first. So you can't say that accountant is scum for going on the offensive "after people started believing him" because he went on the offensive before that. I agree though that I think accountant is doing NOTHING with the information that he is gathering, or to be clearer, is refusing to take in the information.

No I mean he knew that people belived he was town, so he got more confident in going against you. It just seemed strange. From that point onward he has seemed more aggressive and does want to lynch you. I also cannot not see that Alis has almost not talked about Accountant and does seems to agree with everything he does and even tho he seems to have me for his prime target for absoulutely laughable reasons he goes against the target of Accountant. He does also start being cocky and being a bitch which for me has no place in a mafia game.

Agreed with the last sentence. I refrained from calling him a bitch but the cat's out of the bag now.

[Pepchoninga]

Also what? You've been reading this WHOLE time?

He's catching up and responding to earlier posts. I don't think he actually got to the part where I announced I catched up.

Odd because if he's catching up and responding to earlier posts, why is he reading the current thread? Doesn't really look like he's diving back in time.

I'm sorry, can you rephrase the question. Like, rephrase the question as if you were speaking to a toddler. This seems really confusing to me.

If he's looking back through the thread, and trying to catch up, I think it's interesting that he responded almost instantly to you calling him out. I think he might just be sitting back and waiting to see how the situation transpires. If he's really looking back and trying to catch up, and taking notes, etc., he shouldn't be constantly refreshing the current thread. He's lurking with a purpose.

Why are you assuming that he knew I called him out right away?
Also thats how I catch up. I posted my thoughts as I saw them.

@Pep

Code: Select all

[v]The Dude's name[/v]
[vote]dude's name[/vote]
[b]VOTE: dude's name[/b]

Thank you for that, it will definetely come in handy ^6

[Alisae]

Agreed with the last sentence. I refrained from calling him a bitch but the cat's out of the bag now.

Again, apologies.

But either way, the fact that I am buddying Accountant is a legimate theory. I mean, if he flipped scum, then I'm surely fucked.
But right now I'm being cocky because I genunely think I found scum. Nyd just seems to be flailing at this point.

[Accountant]

Nope. I have a null read on DBW. Why am I willing to lynch anyone? Because you've almost single handedly made this game horribly unenjoyable for me.

1) If you're scum, kudos to you because you've convinced people that I'm scummy by saying "oh I don't believe he's actually doing this" and "oh he's not answering my question" when I've given you all my honest intent and answers.

2) If you're town, please change your playstyle in future games (which I will actively avoid being a part of) because quite honestly, you suck. And I don't mean you suck in a "you're a bad player" kind of way, but in a "I actually dislike you" kind of way. It feels like you're attacking me but ignoring all the facts and ignoring anything that I've done that can be even remotely be read as town and just going after anything that sounds scummy. Even if it means that you ignore a couple words in my quotes. You've even quoted my answer to you in a post where you ask me for an answer? WTF is wrong with you?

So, I'm going to preface that if you think I'm an exceptionally abusive IC or if you think I'm being so toxic that it makes the game unfun for you, please PM Mina with a complaint. It's my job to make the game civil and a good introduction to mafia, so if you're having a very unenjoyable time then I'm clearly doing something wrong. I apologize for that. However, I still have to play to my win condition, and that means I will definitely follow up on all the inconsistencies I find scummy. If that's very unenjoyable to you, it's a necessary evil in the game of mafia.

1) That is not why you are willing to lynch anyone. You said something along the lines of "oh, I might be wrong, so I guess it's fine to lynch anyone" - that means you were okay to lynch anyone because you didn't have confidence in your reads. You also mentioned that you wanted to look at flips and interactions, which makes sense paired with a lack of confidence about reads - after all, with more information, you can get better, stronger reads. But now you come and tell me it's because you think the game is unenjoyable. That's a big contradiction right there.

2) It's an objective fact that I've asked you for a yes or no answer and you dragged your feet and took two pages to come out and say "yes". I don't think I'm unreasonable in saying that you're not answering my question in that case.

3) I'm sorry that you dislike me, but I disagree here. I've clearly explained exactly what I find scummy about you. Yes, maybe you do something townie elsewhere - but even then it won't change the fact that you did have lots of inconsistencies, that you have been very evasive(which is an opinion that is not exclusive to me, btw) and that you have spent more time complaining about me witch-hunting you than justifying yourself. When I ask you a yes-or-no question, I expect an answer of "yes" or "no". Not "leaning scum". "Leaning scum" is not a "yes", and it is not a "no". Therefore I do not count that is an actual answer.

[Accountant]

Accountant has made it clear that he isn't willing to work with me.

Yes. I am not willing to work with someone I think is scum. I am not willing to let up pressure on someone who has responded very poorly to pressure, and who - I repeat - I think is a member of the mafia and actively working to subvert and destroy the town. Do you think that's very unreasonable?

[Pepchoninga]

VOTE: Nys

You say you would lynch DBW, but you not voting him yet, you said you would hammer, if there was 4th vote, but ignore Alisa saying same few posts ago, so who stopped you do 4th and Alisa hammer? You talk much, but i can't see any actual town motivation in your actions, and i'm not conf bias on you, i pointed things i didn't liked in you, yet instead of explaining, you tried dodge with "town can do it too, not just scum", now OMGUS on Alisa not makes you look good at all

Pep, i'm still waiting you start doing your glorious scumhunt, we hear so much, yet we have to see, and if you forgot, it was you, who attacked me, not other way, so don't pretend offended now

You have read me wrong the whole time. What I accused you and why I SR you was because you acted like you are above everything and you are either gonna get help and support from everybody because you are obviously town or you are gonna be the worst enemy everybody had. And in the same time I didn't saw you do anything to actually deduce you prime targets. What you did imo was just attack everybody that questioned you. This was brought up other people if im not mistaken too.

Another thing for me to have my suspicions on you is that after I accused ou of what I did you just accused me of the same question and acted cocky without trying to change my mind or show me or anything. I just dislike this style of play and would just like a more nice and clear person to communicate regardless of your faction.

[Pepchoninga]

Agreed with the last sentence. I refrained from calling him a bitch but the cat's out of the bag now.

Again, apologies.

But either way, the fact that I am buddying Accountant is a legimate theory. I mean, if he flipped scum, then I'm surely fucked.
But right now I'm being cocky because I genunely think I found scum. Nyd just seems to be flailing at this point.

I do agree that there are stuff that you can go on from nyd, but what you are doing atm is you are just double teaming on him and he is obviously gonna fall under pressure. Tho his reaction doesn't seem scummy in the slightest to me. He was clearly frustrated and this a town action definetely. I would like to hear some of the other players opinion on this too tho.

[nydushermain]

Nope. I have a null read on DBW. Why am I willing to lynch anyone? Because you've almost single handedly made this game horribly unenjoyable for me.

1) If you're scum, kudos to you because you've convinced people that I'm scummy by saying "oh I don't believe he's actually doing this" and "oh he's not answering my question" when I've given you all my honest intent and answers.

2) If you're town, please change your playstyle in future games (which I will actively avoid being a part of) because quite honestly, you suck. And I don't mean you suck in a "you're a bad player" kind of way, but in a "I actually dislike you" kind of way. It feels like you're attacking me but ignoring all the facts and ignoring anything that I've done that can be even remotely be read as town and just going after anything that sounds scummy. Even if it means that you ignore a couple words in my quotes. You've even quoted my answer to you in a post where you ask me for an answer? WTF is wrong with you?

So, I'm going to preface that if you think I'm an exceptionally abusive IC or if you think I'm being so toxic that it makes the game unfun for you, please PM Mina with a complaint. It's my job to make the game civil and a good introduction to mafia, so if you're having a very unenjoyable time then I'm clearly doing something wrong. I apologize for that. However, I still have to play to my win condition, and that means I will definitely follow up on all the inconsistencies I find scummy. If that's very unenjoyable to you, it's a necessary evil in the game of mafia.

1) That is not why you are willing to lynch anyone. You said something along the lines of "oh, I might be wrong, so I guess it's fine to lynch anyone" - that means you were okay to lynch anyone because you didn't have confidence in your reads. You also mentioned that you wanted to look at flips and interactions, which makes sense paired with a lack of confidence about reads - after all, with more information, you can get better, stronger reads. But now you come and tell me it's because you think the game is unenjoyable. That's a big contradiction right there.

2) It's an objective fact that I've asked you for a yes or no answer and you dragged your feet and took two pages to come out and say "yes". I don't think I'm unreasonable in saying that you're not answering my question in that case.

3) I'm sorry that you dislike me, but I disagree here. I've clearly explained exactly what I find scummy about you. Yes, maybe you do something townie elsewhere - but even then it won't change the fact that you did have lots of inconsistencies, that you have been very evasive(which is an opinion that is not exclusive to me, btw) and that you have spent more time complaining about me witch-hunting you than justifying yourself. When I ask you a yes-or-no question, I expect an answer of "yes" or "no". Not "leaning scum". "Leaning scum" is not a "yes", and it is not a "no". Therefore I do not count that is an actual answer.

1) No, when I said I might be wrong on people so I'm fine lynching people who are in my null to mafia reads. Then I said I'll lynch whoever the fuck because I feel like I'm painted in a dumb corner and it's not fun at all.

2) When you ask me "Do you think I'm more mafia or town" and I said you're leaning scum, that literally means that I think you're more mafia than town. Obviously? Why do I need to say yes or no when I've already given my stance? It's literally synonymous.

3) I'm pretty sure I've answered every question. If you can point to questions that have not been answered at all, then I'll answer them now because I don't remember any.

4) The reason why the game is unenjoyable is because you've pushed on me so hard with what I think is very little justification. I feel like you just flipped a town or scum coin on me and it landed on scum. It has nothing to do with you being an IC, and I don't think you're being rude or anything. You've been civil but I think that your scumhunting playstyle is horrendous if you're town.

[Pepchoninga]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

I will admit that refusing to answer is pretty suspicious.

Did I not answer? Do you really believe that I didn't give an answer to the question he asked??

You haven't given him a clear answer. If you think he is leaning to scum, you answer should still be scum. If you say town, then you are basically either super dumb or confirmed mafia. So this question was important and is really why they are going against you. And tbh, even tho I have my points to still think you are a pretty sure town, in the end you not answering this question could be desisive for my lynch as well.

[Accountant]

I belive that Accountant didn't really do anything with the information.

What about my push on ny?

[nydushermain]

Accountant has made it clear that he isn't willing to work with me.

Yes. I am not willing to work with someone I think is scum. I am not willing to let up pressure on someone who has responded very poorly to pressure, and who - I repeat - I think is a member of the mafia and actively working to subvert and destroy the town. Do you think that's very unreasonable?

I think that you don't realize that I've been in a 2-3 vs 1 this whole time and I'm posting everything in the heat of the moment. Do you expect me to respond beautifully?

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

I will admit that refusing to answer is pretty suspicious.

Did I not answer? Do you really believe that I didn't give an answer to the question he asked??

You haven't given him a clear answer. If you think he is leaning to scum, you answer should still be scum. If you say town, then you are basically either super dumb or confirmed mafia. So this question was important and is really why they are going against you. And tbh, even tho I have my points to still think you are a pretty sure town, in the end you not answering this question could be desisive for my lynch as well.

Because he's trying to force me to make a stance of him being mafia or town and I'm not sure. As it was standing, I said that he was leaning scum because that's where he was but he was insistent that I have to make up a read and say with hard alignment, town or scum. That's dumb and anti-town.

[Accountant]

Anti-town is accountant saying that no matter what I do, "oh it comes from a scummy perspective" even though it seems like he's not against things I say potentially coming from a towny perspective. To him, this should literally be a 50/50 if he looked at things unobjectively, but instead, he chose one and is sticking with it even though nothing really leads to me being scum from what I've read of his accusations.

There's no possible townie perspective in lying about your motivations, as I highlighted in my earlier posts. Also, I haven't said anything about scummy perspectives for the last 50 posts. My last 50 posts have been nailing you on your inconsistency between reads and actions.

[nydushermain]

Anti-town is accountant saying that no matter what I do, "oh it comes from a scummy perspective" even though it seems like he's not against things I say potentially coming from a towny perspective. To him, this should literally be a 50/50 if he looked at things unobjectively, but instead, he chose one and is sticking with it even though nothing really leads to me being scum from what I've read of his accusations.

There's no possible townie perspective in lying about your motivations, as I highlighted in my earlier posts. Also, I haven't said anything about scummy perspectives for the last 50 posts. My last 50 posts have been nailing you on your inconsistency between reads and actions.

No, you're not actually reading what I'm saying and understanding why I think certain things. You read my answer and arbitrarily just say "nope I'm right"

[Pepchoninga]

My reads goes as follows.
Scum: Pep
Other potential scum: Nyd, DBW, Charloux
Town: Ramcius, Mewtaph, Accountant, myself.

Pep has been lurking up to this point. And you may think it's due to inactivity, but I doubt that. Like he's posting in gaps, and if he was town, he's someone I'd expect to be more active and vocal. He's moreso reserved and safe leading up to his posts today. Also he shows no interest in scumhunting.
Not having anyone voted at this point in time tells me you have no real scum reads. This also goes for DBW, who's also lurking, except I don't know them. Either way I see them as a potential partner.
I can see Charloux being paired up with Pep easily. Charloux goes after lurkers but ignores Pep. This seems off to me.
As for Nyd, I'm following Accountant's reasoning and logic moreso then Nyd's on Accountant. Or they could just both be town, which I see happening.

Your only real strong points are that I was innactive for a bit and that I'm not interested in scumhunting. Now let me tell ya, I am interested in scumhunting. Actually I'm trying to achieve that. Kinda hard when you can't really find a place in the disscussion till now. My prime targets till now were Accountatn and Ramicius. Two people you put as Town on your list. Yet you almost haven't touched on anything those 2 people have said till now. And there one of the most active people in the game till now. Most of the post I read from you are on my posts and going againt me. You have a personal agenta? Or you just want to get me out of the game as soon as possible since I'm gonna be the easiest target for you? Let me also point out that I hate when people just say that they are confirmed town in there opinion and put it like it's something normal. For me it's a veyr scummy move and one that should not be neglected. What makes you think you are a town?

You not voting should also be considered a valid point.
You have shown nothing to prove that you are scumhunting, and currently you're just defending yourself.
What about Ramicius seemed scummy to you?
I think your scum, and I want the town to win? That's sorta what I'm trying to do here.

And you're reading my reads wrong. You wanna know a tell I recently just learned? Scum trying to push things that aren't slips. Because scum LOVE having a justified vote. Saying that I am slipping for reading them as confirmed town is a mistake, becuase I am not reading them as confirmed town, I am reading them as I think they are town.

And what makes me think I'm town? My role pm.

Who should I vote in this situation? You? Accountant? Ramicus or Ny? Should I jump on the waggon or try and go against my targets. Will I get the support needed and will people agree with my suspicions? You know those are all questions I need to answer myself and get other people to answer some of them before I put my real lynch. But for now I will go with a lynch that my heart tell me.

VOTE: Alisae

And yes I am curently scumhinting also I'm defneding myself since you are only going against me. You haven't defended against my accusations tho. Don't think it's very townish to avoid my suspicions.
I did make a post basically saying why I Scum read Ramicius.
I didn't really understand what you meant with the next one buddy but ok.
And what makes me not belive you? You not being able to show me that pm

[Pepchoninga]

I belive that Accountant didn't really do anything with the information.

What about my push on ny?

I belive my too many post may have been too many. I did say in one of them that I belive after you were sure that people belived you are town you started going agianst the person who was most actively pushing on you. And that was Ny. There was a clear change in the way you play after he brang you old games and started giving some decent-ish arguments from there but off course you can't really judge from past games since this is to some extent unproffesional. No you are clearly looking more confident and aggressive towards him. Why the change in playing in that current time.

[Accountant]

1) No, when I said I might be wrong on people so I'm fine lynching people who are in my null to mafia reads. Then I said I'll lynch whoever the fuck because I feel like I'm painted in a dumb corner and it's not fun at all.

2) When you ask me "Do you think I'm more mafia or town" and I said you're leaning scum, that literally means that I think you're more mafia than town. Obviously? Why do I need to say yes or no when I've already given my stance? It's literally synonymous.

3) I'm pretty sure I've answered every question. If you can point to questions that have not been answered at all, then I'll answer them now because I don't remember any.

4) The reason why the game is unenjoyable is because you've pushed on me so hard with what I think is very little justification. I feel like you just flipped a town or scum coin on me and it landed on scum. It has nothing to do with you being an IC, and I don't think you're being rude or anything. You've been civil but I think that your scumhunting playstyle is horrendous if you're town.

1) That makes no sense. Thinking that you might be wrong on people does not equate to you lynching randomly. Otherwise you don't really read someone as more scummy than another person - you say with your mouth that they're scummy, but when it comes down to it you're content with giving them the exact same treatment as you do with someone who is merely null. Your actions do not match up with your words at all.

2) No. You could claim later that you were only "leaning" scum and didn't truly believe it. I'm trying to pin you down into a concrete view so I can hold it against you later and you can't keep changing your mind and twisting your own words. If you were truly town who was frustrated that I kept accusing you of not answering, you'd definitely want me to stop accusing you, and the easiest way to do that is to answer. Instead, you evaded and got into an argument. That makes no sense.

3) Unfortunately, getting pushed for reasons you disagree with is part and parcel of the game.

[Accountant]

No, you're not actually reading what I'm saying and understanding why I think certain things. You read my answer and arbitrarily just say "nope I'm right"

I am absolutely reading what you're saying, and what you're saying tells me that you're scum. I'm not arbitrarily saying that I'm right - quote where I did so. Every single accusation I have leveled at you, every single conclusion I have drawn from your posts has been backed by cold hard logic. If you're unhappy with that, then too bad.

[Accountant]

I belive that Accountant didn't really do anything with the information.

What about my push on ny?

I belive my too many post may have been too many. I did say in one of them that I belive after you were sure that people belived you are town you started going agianst the person who was most actively pushing on you. And that was Ny. There was a clear change in the way you play after he brang you old games and started giving some decent-ish arguments from there but off course you can't really judge from past games since this is to some extent unproffesional. No you are clearly looking more confident and aggressive towards him. Why the change in playing in that current time.

I was more confident and aggressive towards ny because my scumread on him became stronger. Isn't it natural to be more aggressive towards someone you scumread more strongly?