Newbie 1765 | URW | Endgame

[Superhans]

*I meant town not noob, sorry Rautherdir :z

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.22

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---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Superhans

(L-5): TheDominator37

TheDominator37

(L-3): Nachomamma8,

Rautherdir,

ConnorJC

Nachomamma8

(L-3): LicketyQuickety, TheDominator37

Not voting

(5): Lovesick, toblerone187, Superhans, FancyPants, Rautherdir

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:

(expired on 2016-12-30 14:00:00)

.

[LicketyQuickety]

Rautherdir, I also don't know about this,

but it seems that if Nacho's logic is sound and everyone agrees with it, I was wrong about him.

At the time of your post, I agreed with your read.

Mistake. Good Scum players can come up with believable reasons for why someone is Town or Scum. I said earlier that Scum have difficulty giving reads, BUT the good players [as Scum] do not even need to come up with fake reasons for why someone is Town/Scum.

[Superhans]

Hello Everybody!

LicketyQuickety, what do you mean by IC? You're an experienced ayer right, meant to help us noobs? Are can ICs be assigned as mafia?

Sorry for these very basic questions but it would be even stupider of me not to.ask.

The IC is a player assigned to a game with the responsibility of teaching new players how mafia works and helping them understand theory. Yes, ICs can be assigned as mafia, and

they are still supposed to play to their win condition

.

ICs are

required

to not lie about theory and give correct answers to theory questions. What Lickety is saying is that he often disagrees with the community on the "right" action to take (Preferring to think out of the box), and therefore is queuing as an SE (An experienced player in a newbie game without strict requirements) so he's free to play as he sees fit.

Connor makes a very relevant point, that being an IC Nacho would technically be unable to lie about game theory, i.e he couldn't say newb scum never fakeclaim, if actually they often do fake claim.

On the otherhand, ConnorJC may have go this wrong, and it is possible Nacho our IC is actually in a position where he is allowed to deceive us. I'm sure this is something that Nacho will be happy to clarify when he returns after Christmas.

[LicketyQuickety]

There was very clear pressure on R and that can scare Scum and Town into premature claiming in a newbie game.

Find me one newbie game where scum prematurely claimed PR.

Nacho seems exceedingly convinced that scum has never prematurely claimed PR in a newbie game... Being an experienced player yourself, do you think that Nacho is relying on us to not actually go looking through Newbie games to try and find examples as it would be a very tedious and time consuming process, or do you think that in this case Nacho is making a valid point, even though you may still think that overall he is scum?

Nope, that is not what Nacho is saying at all. He was trying to get me to give up the idea thinking I would when he put forth the argument that I am the one with the burden of proof in this scenario. He wanted to force me to scour through Newbie games to find an example. I didn't and won't and Nacho knows this. This is why his comment was truely sinister: because he wanted me to back something up with facts when he knows I don't roll that way.

[Nachomamma8]

And I disagree. I have seen Town claim Doc as VT When they were prolly getting lynched and it nearly cost Town the game. And this was a player with some experience as well.

This is completely different from the situation that we're looking at now.

Not really. Its a person claiming PR because they feel cornered.

Which is a more complicated situation than you're currently making it.

[LicketyQuickety]

And I disagree. I have seen Town claim Doc as VT When they were prolly getting lynched and it nearly cost Town the game. And this was a player with some experience as well.

This is completely different from the situation that we're looking at now.

Not really. Its a person claiming PR because they feel cornered.

Which is a more complicated situation than you're currently making it.

Err... not its not? Its based on instinct which is pretty much as basic as it gets?

[Superhans]

@Nacho
How many Newb games have you personally participated in or spectated?

[LicketyQuickety]

AND, oh baby did you see that read I gave on Dom. That was one of the sickest Town reads I have ever given on someone.

[Superhans]

@Nacho
Are ICs who are scum

allowed

to lie about game theory in order to increase their likelihood of winning?

[Nachomamma8]

Connor makes a very relevant point, that being an IC Nacho would technically be unable to lie about game theory, i.e he couldn't say newb scum never fakeclaim, if actually they often do fake claim.

I will never lie about a game theory question.

The question you're talking about in particular (do newb scum fakeclaim?) is one that I could lie about being that it's based on personal experience as opposed to theory (I also hope you realize my read is more nuanced than that!). Does that make sense?

[Superhans]

@LQ
Bby I love the pressure you're applying to Nachomamma, but I'm not entirely convinced with your Town read early game because you thought theDominator was using his abscence as a way to get reactions. I think if TheDominator gets a townread, it'll have to be by playing pro-town far harder.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho
How many Newb games have you personally participated in or spectated?

Quite a few; couldn't give you an exact number, but at the absolute minimum 75.

[Nachomamma8]

Err... not its not? Its based on instinct which is pretty much as basic as it gets?

And instinct of a player who is new to playing scum isn't to claim PR immediately.
When you first started playing, your instinct when you were overwhelmed by pressure was to disappear completely; this is a far more typical reaction than "claiming PR out of the blue". Off the top of my head, I can remember about 2 extremely premature claims (both VT claims, both town); extremely premature claims are pretty rare in the first place and the risk that the move carries for a scum player,

especially

for a PR claim, makes it that much more unlikely that it's coming from scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I scumread it because he flat out admitted his motive was self defense rather than actually finding LQ scummy.

You're the one who put the self-defense word in his mouth in the first place; his reasons were to get LQ to give a reason for voting him in the first place, and then gave additional reasoning why it bothered him, which is a different from "pure self-defense".

[Superhans]

Connor makes a very relevant point, that being an IC Nacho would technically be unable to lie about game theory, i.e he couldn't say newb scum never fakeclaim, if actually they often do fake claim.

I will never lie about a game theory question.

The question you're talking about in particular (do newb scum fakeclaim?) is one that I could lie about being that it's based on personal experience as opposed to theory (I also hope you realize my read is more nuanced than that!). Does that make sense?

Thanks for the transparency. Ironically I find you revealing that you have no inclination to tell the truth about whether or not you truly believe fakeclaiming in a newb game to be a town read, to be reassuring. I guess the most obvious scum answer to that question would be ambiguous and designed to confuse.

Why would you challenge us to search through newb games to try and find a scenario that would apply to this game, surely you must have known that there is no way anyone here would actually do that.

[Superhans]

Question addressed to both LQ and TheDominator.

You're both voting for Nacho (on board a Nacho Wagon so to speak) but you are both basing your votes on completely separate lines of logic.

What do you think of each other's line of logic? LQ do you agree with Dom's reasoning, Dom do you agree with LQs reasoning?

[LicketyQuickety]

Err... not its not? Its based on instinct which is pretty much as basic as it gets?

And instinct of a player who is new to playing scum isn't to claim PR immediately.
When you first started playing, your instinct when you were overwhelmed by pressure was to disappear completely; this is a far more typical reaction than "claiming PR out of the blue". Off the top of my head, I can remember about 2 extremely premature claims (both VT claims, both town); extremely premature claims are pretty rare in the first place and the risk that the move carries for a scum player,

especially

for a PR claim, makes it that much more unlikely that it's coming from scum.

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

I don't think it was "out of the blue."

I'd like to ask if you have experience playing forum mafia outside of this forum, please.

[LicketyQuickety]

Question addressed to both LQ and TheDominator.

You're both voting for Nacho (on board a Nacho Wagon so to speak) but you are both basing your votes on completely separate lines of logic.

What do you think of each other's line of logic? LQ do you agree with Dom's reasoning, Dom do you agree with LQs reasoning?

No, I don't think Dom's reasoning is bad.

[Nachomamma8]

Remember this post if I flip.

I think your purpose might be better served with a bit more transparency here; what meaning do you expect people to get from "look at this!"?

Nacho, why haven't you called anything Townie or Scummy?

I've expressed viewpoints, I've formed an idea of what I think the gamestate is, I've been posting arguments pursuing that gamestate. I don't remember what words I've used to do so but if I've avoided saying "townie" and "scummy" a whole lot this game then I don't think it matters as long as I'm still contributing.

[Nachomamma8]

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

A hell of a lot more remains than "Rautherdir fakeclaimed early because he's scum!". You still haven't addressed the argument that I'm making here.

I'd like to ask if you have experience playing forum mafia outside of this forum, please.

Yes, I do - why bring this up?

[LicketyQuickety]

Remember this post if I flip.

I think your purpose might be better served with a bit more transparency here; what meaning do you expect people to get from "look at this!"?

I'm pretty sure you know why I made that comment.

Nacho, why haven't you called anything Townie or Scummy?

I've expressed viewpoints, I've formed an idea of what I think the gamestate is, I've been posting arguments pursuing that gamestate. I don't remember what words I've used to do so but if I've avoided saying "townie" and "scummy" a whole lot this game then I don't think it matters as long as I'm still contributing.

It makes your stances ambiguous, which is not Pro-Town.

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P

[LicketyQuickety]

Remember this post if I flip.

I think your purpose might be better served with a bit more transparency here; what meaning do you expect people to get from "look at this!"?

I'm pretty sure you know why I made that comment.

Nacho, why haven't you called anything Townie or Scummy?

I've expressed viewpoints, I've formed an idea of what I think the gamestate is, I've been posting arguments pursuing that gamestate. I don't remember what words I've used to do so but if I've avoided saying "townie" and "scummy" a whole lot this game then I don't think it matters as long as I'm still contributing.

It makes your stances ambiguous, which is not Pro-Town.

EBWOP

[Nachomamma8]

But there is still a chance that your "solid town read" can be scum right?

Yes.
What does this have to do with anything?

Yeah if han is scum we're lynchng rauth and vice versa

Why?

I disagree. My vote and more people talling about it and had more of a lasting impact

I disagree, but I'm not particularly interesting in this point because I don't think it's that meaningful. Why bring it up? Why was it when you came into the thread in 110 that you felt that the most important thing for you to do was to pat yourself on the back for generating discussion? What was the lasting impact that you believed that it created?

It seems like you are trying to discredit me and I don't know why

I'm scumreading you. I don't think that when you post, you're doing so because you want to find and lynch scum. I aim to make it as transparent as possible so that if I'm wrong, people can correct me, and if I'm right, you can get lynched. Was there some huge contribution that you made at that point that I unfairly missed?

Nacho why the push for my lynch? You misrepped connor to try and get him to join me.

I didn't misrep connor; I was unfamiliar with Connor's top suspect at that point because I wasn't fully caught up.

Nachomamma. You've left a few questions unanswered. I'd be on the fence regarding you otherwise.

What questions have I left unanswered?
Why is Dominator almost a townread for you; what has he contributed that you agree with or think comes from a town mindset?

[LicketyQuickety]

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

A hell of a lot more remains than "Rautherdir fakeclaimed early because he's scum!". You still haven't addressed the argument that I'm making here.

Yes, but you are not even considering it as an option.

I'd like to ask if you have experience playing forum mafia outside of this forum, please.

Yes, I do - why bring this up?

It makes you a more well rounded player. You get to see different looks, different playstyles, different games, different structures. It is impossible if you have decent experience playing at a variety of places for it not to make a difference in your approach to the game. Basically I want to see if you are playing dumb here or not.