Open 672: Friends and Enemies and Enemies: Music on a whim

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Also this is just for general stuff and forget how it relates to the game at the moment but what doesn't make sense is that someone said you're not allowed to town read someone who thinks you're scum. I think that's blatantly false because if we use an example of the 10v3 mini normal stanard, if your wagon reaches 4 people, there is a promised 1 townie on your wagon that has it wrong. I'd actually be worried if a slot accused his whole wagon of scum if it reaches past max scum count.

[Laudandus]

Honestly I just took Joey's word for it

Looking back it did look like TRG was on the path to scumreading him, but he wasn't explicitly there. Between the massive anger and broken english the whole thing was hard to read.

I think calling someone badtown is not completely unlikely to get them off of you, and part of the original case was that this leaves a window open for you to go back later and say "oh yeah I guess you were scum, not bad town, after all"

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Did you have a town read on Joey before the event?

[Laudandus]

I've been having a hard time getting a read on anyone. I'd say I was pretty null on him.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I've been having a hard time getting a read on anyone. I'd say I was pretty null on him.

I'm having a hard time following why you would say you'd just take his word for it if he wasn't a strong town read of yours.

[Laudandus]

Because I'm playing really poorly and on top of that I felt compelled to get an opinion out fast, plus I didn't even conceive of the idea that he would just lie about something like that.

I also had a hard time even reading the exchange because so much of it was meaningless anger so I kind of ended up accidentally skimming.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I also had a hard time even reading the exchange because so much of it was meaningless anger so I kind of ended up accidentally skimming.

This is honestly probably my biggest weakness that I'm trying to tame. I've decided to not post if I'm angry because it doesn't help anyone and I don't think clearly.

I hate it because it's this vicious cycle that when I get angry, I do things rash, when they're rash, they're perceived as scummy, when they're scummy, people accuse me of being scummy, when I get called scummy when angry, I get more angry for people thinking I could be scum and the cycle builds on itself.

[Laudandus]

I still stand on Lowell being scum.

Do you think Lowell and I are scumpartners, or on opposite scum factions? If you had to theorize.

[cassielle]

A key element is to remember that while scum only sometimes look like town, town always looks like scum, and so people will inevitably scumread you. Hell, we had a statistically proven town in my last game that most slots pushed as scum at least a little bit on D2 (due to scum influence, but still). You have to not let scumreads feel like a reflection on your play and treat them more as a reflection of the human condition.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Because I'm playing really poorly and on top of that I felt compelled to get an opinion out fast, plus I didn't even conceive of the idea that he would just lie about something like that.

What leads you to the conclusion that you've been playing poorly this game?

Also, just because something is said with a genuine town, it doesn't make the statement true.

To give an extreme example, think of religion, in which, people firmly believe there is or isn't a god and treat their opinions as fact, now, there is obviously one correct answer but you have to judge which of the two beliefs leads to the correct answer.

So, in game, if I think someone is genuinely pushing something, I'm okay with it, but it's still my job to disprove a theory I think is incorrect.

[Laudandus]

VOTE: Tenshii

Next time I'm scum I'm going to copy your scum strategy of blindly tunneling someone until everyone assumes you're just dumb and not real scum

[Laudandus]

What leads you to the conclusion that you've been playing poorly this game?

I have no good reads and everyone active is scumreading me

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Well, explain to me your Tenshii read. Even if it's poor, talking about it will allow a stronger opinion to form.

[Laudandus]

Him and Revan are both showing up in the thread exclusively to talk about how they're scumreading me. They're pushing weak cases that aren't particularly persuasive to the exclusion of everything else. Revan, I think, just does this - Superhans said that in the previous game they played Revan did the same thing as town, so it's NAI for him.

Tenshii doesn't seem as braindead, so his total inability to talk about much of anything else ("lowell is scum because his townreads are weak" aside) strikes me as potentially trying to copy the Revan tunnel. At the point he saw Revan start doing it, he'd seen that people don't seem to be scumreading Revan for it. I've seen people do strategy copies of townie things to get townread before, and it doesn't seem totally crazy that he could be doing it, especially since if people start policy lynching lurker-via-tunnelers they'd definitely go after Revan first, at which point Tenshii could just stop doing it.

That said, Lowell seemed like scum from reading his posts, but he said that he usually seems like scum to people reading his posts so maybe that's meta. I'd still be up for lynching him

[cassielle]

That said, Lowell seemed like scum from reading his posts, but he said that he usually seems like scum to people reading his posts so maybe that's meta. I'd still be up for lynching him

This is why I dismiss meta as a general rule. Maybe it's meta. Maybe it's WIFOM. Maybe it's town trying to get out of a scumread they don't understand and can't think about properly (some people have trouble with counterfactuals). The safest bet is to assume it's WIFOM, otherwise scum will coast because it's "just their meta". Especially a meta like "I always get scumread as town" which is ripe for abuse.

[Realeo]

I can accept laud d2 claiming.

That is the only social contract I can offer at this point.

I have been treating this game as VT v maf v were.

Yeah, same here.

Actually, I'm thinking. Do you think inability to come to a town consensus is AI? Let's talk reads for a moment: the people scumleaning Laud would not be an example -- someone scumreading Superhans, Joey_ or Big Lungs DK would be. You see where I'm going with that? Don't want to spell it out... but let me know what you think.

We might be able to build a solid townblock if you get the picture and think it would be AI.

It is usually an AI, but it's something that I wouldn't touch until I see some people flips to get a better feel of the chaos. If I try to do that without any death, I basically become the alien conspiracist of History channel.

[Realeo]

Tenshii doesn't seem as braindead, so his total inability to talk about much of anything else ("lowell is scum because his townreads are weak" aside) strikes me as potentially trying to copy the Revan tunnel. At the point he saw Revan start doing it, he'd seen that people don't seem to be scumreading Revan for it. I've seen people do strategy copies of townie things to get townread before, and it doesn't seem totally crazy that he could be doing it, especially since if people start policy lynching lurker-via-tunnelers they'd definitely go after Revan first, at which point Tenshii could just stop doing it.

Now that is a food for thought.

[Realeo]

VOTE: Tenshii

Next time I'm scum I'm going to copy your scum strategy of blindly tunneling someone until everyone assumes you're just dumb and not real scum

I persuaded Tenshii to push you D2.

After Tenshii response and change his target, can I persuade you to reconsider your Tenshii read judging from the new target?

[Laudandus]

Yes. If Tenshii provides any kind of real content I will reconsider my read of him based on that content. However, I don't see that you've persuaded him, since he didn't respond to you (unless I missed it?) and the only thing he does is show up and post what is effectively the same 2 posts once every 10 pages.

[LicketyQuickety]

Vote count 1.7

TheRealGin-N-Tonic (4):

Joey_

?, Lowell, cassielle, Realeo [L-3]

Lowell (2): Superhans, Laudandus [L-5]

Realeo (1): ThinkBig [L-6]

Laudandus (1): Tenshii [L-6]

alban (1): Big Lungs DK [L-6]

Big Lungs DK (1): alban [L-6]

Tenshii (1): Laudandus [L-6]

Not voting (2): Revan, TheRealGin-N-Tonic

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2017-02-16 23:30:00)

Prodding: alban, Big Lungs DK, Lowell.

[Lowell]

Prod received. Give me a few to get back into this.

Offhand I'm not a fan of GinNTonic. Comes off as pedantic and avoiding conflict. Can't quite mix that scumminess with what I saw as towniness from Joey.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I want you to describe avoiding conflict and then tell me how exactly how I did that.

[Tenshii]

My teams atm are Cassielle + Laudandus and Lowell + X.

Laudandus is pushing me for pushing my scumread.

Laudandus is pushing me for "lack of content"

If all of you guys are apathetic about my push on Laudandus, I'm happy to end the day with a 1v1 lynch between Laudandus and I.

I persuaded Tenshii to push you D2.

This is a lie.

[Superhans]

I'm back, not too much content

[Superhans]

I'll catch up tomorrow