Micro 11: Mostly Normal Micro (Day 4)

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Bub would you be willing to vote Ree? I havnt heard your answer yet.

No.

I really don't like how Lucky is trying to find another out. He's trying to leave as many options open as possible to keep us from using PoE.

The fact that scum hasn't quick-hammered bork yet means that either I'm scum or bork is. I know I'm not scum, thus bork is. Scumteam's Lucky/Bork. GG

[Mr_Ree]

Aren't you the rule master Bork?

@ mod: if scum have daytalk, would it say so in the rules?

Let's get this out of the way now. Nobody voted after Bub except you. Scum found?

[borkjerfkin]

I'm talking about someone voting

with

Bub. I hardly voted for myself. Stop being dense.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Just so I have this clear,

VOTE: Bub

For being the last to confirm.

Totally right.

vote: Bub Bidderskins

I hate those holdouts.

Bub, you did this back at the beginning of the game. Care to explain why you didn't go straight into your comment on Lucky?

[Mr_Ree]

I'm talking about someone voting

with

Bub. I hardly voted for myself. Stop being dense.

Nor did anyone else. Your previous comment was moot.

[borkjerfkin]

And my previous comment explained WHY they didn't -- two scum cannot guarantee a quickhammer UNLESS they have daytalk -- they can't guarantee Bub won't unvote in the middle of the two votes, and the one that would've voted would be hung out to dry.

[Mr_Ree]

Why do you think I started the day off voting for you? To see if anyone else would jump on. Nobody did.

The daytalk point is useless. A quickhammer can happen with or without it. All scum needs is for one townie to vote another townie. Notice how nobody has voted after you and bub? Probably means one or both is scum.

Daytalk is useless when scum can chat during night phase. Plans can still be made. Get online every night at exactly 8pm est. If anyone is voting town, vote with them at exactly 8:01pm. See how easy that is? Why does daytalk make a difference?

[borkjerfkin]

I refuse to believe you believe this. Plans can be made yes; plans can just as easily fall apart.

Daytalk is the only way scum can be 100% certain that both are on at the same time.

Why did you ask mod to confirm daytalk/no daytalk and then suddenly not care about it?

[Mr_Ree]

Because you seem so concerned about it. Lets just take that off the table by having a mod confirm one way or the other. It is handy to know if they do or don't. Doesn't make any difference either way but it is handy to know. Odd that you didn't look it up. Seems to go against your play this game.

[borkjerfkin]

I actually did -- I couldn't find whether or not that was explicitly normal or not. I've read normals where it was being speculated about, although I don't know whether or not that speculation was warranted.

[DCLXVI]

@ mod: if scum have daytalk, would it say so in the rules?

No comment.

[borkjerfkin]

Missed this:

Why do you think I started the day off voting for you? To see if anyone else would jump on. Nobody did.

You admit you could've interrupted a quickhammer, but Bub and I can't both be town cause there would've definitely been a quickhammer if we were? You're basically admitting there's inherent risk in attempting to quickhammer at 5p LYLO (unless there's daytalk), which was

my entire point.

[ProsecutorGodot]

They could have just as easily made sure that there was a time where there would be very little chance that both of them would not be on at a certain time. The point that daytalk is the only way to guarantee that the game can end in scum's favor with a double quickhammer on the spot is void. There was no guarantee that Bub wouldn't pull back his vote in the middle of his last two comments, but you ignore that there was still ample opportunity for it to happen regardless.

I thought that it would be simple logic to agree that a Ree/Lucky scumteam is not possible given today's play. What I would have expected to happen if they were the scumteam did not and still has not. All this talk of daytalk is irrelevant unless someone can give us better proof of its existence. If the scum have daytalk, why should they have not utilized it throughout the entire game? Wouldn't there have been even a small slip about that earlier?

@Bork: What went on earlier in the game that shows us the possibility of daytalk?

P-edit: There would have been a quickhammer if you are town regardless of which of the other three is town. That would leave Bub, Ree and Lucky to lynch you without further discussion with two of them to have clinched victory. Again, there has been a page-long window for them to do you in. If you and Bub are town as you say, that leaves Ree and Lucky as scum. All of this talk and action before then, however, has served to prove that because both of them have not ended the game at this point despite a page's worth of chances to do it, they can't be scum together. They would have followed Bub, voted you and the game would be over. The uncertainty of Bub's return is irrelevant, especially given that Bub did not retract his vote. That leaves scum among you and Bub if you aren't both scum.

[Mr_Ree]

My thoughts exactly. If Bub was town, scum would have taken advantage. Which means it's most likely an attempt to bus his partner, Bork.

That's the way I see it. I'm not ready to end the day though. Not until I figure out Lucky. I've played with him before on other sites. He's not new to the game and I know he plays better than this. I noticed a possible lucky/Godot scumteam day 2. My Johhog/zab read was stronger. Since that didn't pan out, I'm open to the possibility again. Given everyone's current reads, Bub is the most likely scum. Partnerwise, my scum read on Bork hinges on his reads on Bub and his town hammers. He has taken the hammer on town twice in a row. I'm willing to make a case but I want more discussion before the day ends.



Can I ask everyone to post both a town and scum case on everyone? I'll do the same. There's a chance it may muddy up the waters a bit but it's equally likely that it should make the scum team pretty evident.

[DCLXVI]

Luckyjt has been prodded.

[Luckyjt]

Sorry for not posting lately. Im busy today so no content from me right now. I should have enough time tomorrow Ree to do your request. Although I am having a hard time figuring out who is scum and may have to do ISO's.

@Bub cant we say the same for Ree? He has one vote on him and yet no hammers. So either Bork is scum or Ree is scum or both.I believe Ree is scum but finding his partner is a hard since I do see possibilities in everyone. And at your point about me keeping possibilities open, well its true. I do keep every option open. Only scum know who is town and who is isnt. I tunnel a lot but in lylo I keep options open. No matter who I believe is scum there is the chance I am wrong. RIght now I am tunneling Ree but thats because no matter what way I look at I cant convince myslef otherwise. I see him as scum in so many wasy so he has to be scum.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Below be the wall of summaries:

Bork

Town case:

Kept calm and on-track when I voted him after his vote on Sala. Started making good points throughout the first two days and looked to make an honest effort in questioning.

Scum case

: Brings out the possibility of daytalk on day 3 when surely someone would have slipped that by now. If Ree/Lucky was the scumteam and they did have daytalk, you would have thought Lucky wouldn't have been playing the way he was for ALL of day 1. Now starts looking to get the remainder of the town to mistrust his attackers. Lashing out today when he had me down as town for a while doesn't help that out. Conducting the Mehdi quickwagon near the end of day 1 seems possible that it could have been to draw out his claim if not get a lynch.

Bub

Town case:

L-1 out of the gate looked like scum was taking a gamble on getting out of the first day entirely. Day 1 is an important informational phase and the sooner someone gets lynched, the better for them. Makes a valid point that Lucky explained his early-stage vote a little much. D3 post about Lucky does have merit to it as 524 seems passive-aggressive. Not going in for the hammer in spite of the Amish tell seems reasonable enough. Transitions look smooth enough. This even connects with his current scumteam read:

That leaves my non-wagoning scum pool as [

Sal

, Bork, Lucky].

Scum case:

Self-vote at the start doesn't help us out and I don't think is ever justified regardless of flavor. It also looked like intentionally introducing a moot point in 503 and I had to resist the urge to answer back.

Ree

Town case:

Has stuck his neck out and given a lot of reads from and on himself for a lot of the game. Friendly neighbor claim makes a lot of sense going back and reading. Transitions seem natural from point to point. Comments and reads are pretty clear and let me get quite a bit from what he's saying.

Scum case:

Hole-poking in Mehdi's play Day 1 seemed odd. Friendly neighbor could have been a scum gambit, but is a lesser possibility. Nabbing Joh on the Amish tell could have been a scum move to mislynch on more solid grounds. Trying to turn the NK point into a tell seemed strange as well.

Lucky

Town case:

Posts were strange on D1. D2 turnaround seemed artificial at first, but began looking more genuine as the day went on. D1 play seemed more like wrong reasoning than scummy misleading at the time.

Scum case:

Playing the "I'm an easy lynch" card in LyLo on Day 3 is worse than his attempt to play it day 1. Then turns around and pursues someone who has also been on the lynch table for most of the game. His play helped us out day 2, but it seems someone hit the switch again (or he chose to do well yesterday so he wouldn't be brought up as a major option today) Seems to push too hard that he doesn't want to be the lynch. Yes, if he is town, his lynch means game over, but I think that should be understood rather than forced, especially where that becomes a focal point alongside his primary scumread. Not liking how he's trying to write off PoE as reasoning just because he has someone on him. All in all, D3 play seems very defensive.

To conclude:

I'm reconsidering who else is scum with Bork.

HoS: Bork
FoS: Lucky

[borkjerfkin]

Been meaning to get to this -- I overextended myself in games. I'll have my updated reads by tomorrow.

I'll admit I was wrong on daytalk -- the only remaining viable daytalk team is Godot/Bub and that just is super improbable.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Just so I have this clear,

VOTE: Bub

For being the last to confirm.

Totally right.

vote: Bub Bidderskins

I hate those holdouts.

Bub, you did this back at the beginning of the game. Care to explain why you didn't go straight into your comment on Lucky?

It was a joke.

[Luckyjt]

@Godot once again you have your facts wrong. I dont beleive I played the Im an easy lynch card Day1. Quote me if you can, you never did last time i told you to do so. Anyways based on your cases its seems like you have me as more scum than town since you have more scum points on me than town but earlier, not much earlier, you were believing me more as town. The only thing that happened between then and now is Bub accusing me as scum for keeping options open.

@Bork dont leave out any possibilities as who can be scum. I Bub/godot team seems plausible.

[ProsecutorGodot]

297 and 312 is where you basically say "I'm still alive?"

Also, you're right. You played it yesterday. 414 is where you brought it up before. Among several oddities (such as the non-falsifiable statement where you considered a self-hammer and your wrong comment about the ISO function (which goes in chronological order of the user's last post, not necessarily in alphabetical order)) there is this:

Now my final point if Im just going to be a lynch you guys are going to keep coming too then please lynch me today. I dont want to get lynched today. I was fine with being lynched yesterday but with two town flips already I dont think its the best choice, but if you guys will come back to lynching me tomorrow just get rid of me today.

I will always be that easy lynch because of my way of handling pressure where I crumble in anger.

Because I can be sure as hell I will be a target for the lynch tomorrow if I am not lynched today or killed tonight.

There are no guarantees that we can take you at your word at this stage.

Also, I read again. I looked back at what you said earlier. I looked back at what you've said today. This continued defensiveness certainly doesn't help me believe you're town. Also, you look like you're flailing at this point. You say you're tunneling on Ree with the likely possibility of Bork as his partner, then you turn around about a page later and say that I could be scum with Bub. Where's the transition to that conclusion? Nowhere since, according to you, nothing happened between then and now other than Bub's accusation. If nothing happened, how can you possibly take Reescum out of your reads? Where's your argument about your concluded possibility?

158: I reached on that point and you agreed. Still didn't see a good reason why since it doesn't ever make sense scum would set up anything on one person at the expense of two kills. That math never adds up. Never.
209: The classic pursuit of lurkers. Scum delicacies. He was acting strange and scummy (he usually does from my experience playing with him and reading some of his other games) and lurking was the best you could come up with?
297, 312: This appeals to the emotion that triggers my desire to vote someone who uses that at all. Only reason I didn't vote you was because I saw Sala as a better lynch at that time.
512: Why does removing one's self from the lynch table sound strange to you when you've tried to do it since yesterday and pushed artificially hard for yourself to stay off today? It should be easy to see from his perspective--if he's not going to lynch himself and he's not going to push for my lynch, that doesn't leave much anyone else who is still alive, yourself included.
516: Of course he would claim, given what his role is, especially since a) this will help us going into N3 should we lynch correctly today and b) it makes a lot of sense in the context of the game. Plus, bussing doesn't make a lot of sense to do right out of the start of the day. We all knew Ree would be in the spotlight today given what happened between him and Joh. He has explained his moves with his votes since then.
534: What happened to your comment at the end? Why haven't you mentioned anything about Bork's and Bub's votes since this? The rest of it is WIFOM with no basis to show any possibility of truth.

All in all, your play today reeks of tearing holes in logic without patching them. I'm not inclined to believe you're on to anything except an attempt to go with Bork's flow so the day (and game) can end ASAP.

[borkjerfkin]

Allrighty -- I'm not gonna go through a "What-if" thing on every player. I don't think that's particularly productive and I think would "muddy the waters" as Ree put it -- I'm instead going to touch on what I think are the most likely scenarios.

Bub

Bub is starting to worry me a little -- Day 1 and Day 2 play are town, through and through, but his Day 3 play has been pretty much "throw a vote down and coast" which is undermining the previous two days. If he is town, and my gut is still saying he is, then the scumteam just has no stones and don't think they can coordinate a quickhammer before Bub gets back and busts them. This probably means Lucky is on the scumteam, since he's much less consistently around than either Godot or especially Ree. Thus I will say that if Bub is town, Lucky is definitely scum.

Lucky

The chameleon read -- my read on him has mostly fit around how I feel about everyone else since he has so little content. I will say this though -- he looks like he's looking for an easy out on D3 with Ree -- he's got little oomph behind his suspicion (unlike myself). I thought I had him dead to rights on D1 with his ill-timed AtE, but his head kind of stayed in the clouds and I don't have the benefit of past play with him besides Micro 3 which barely got off the ground before town won to see if he's BSing me. I will say that #569 is a bad, bad post -- you specifically are trying to get me to keep all my options open and undermine my read on Bub.

Godot

Good D1 play. Slightly reserved D2 play. Has received essentially no pressure throughout the entire game -- fine in and of itself, but the minute I exert any, he seriously starts to overreact and start pointing at me. Seems like you're more upset that I swapped a read on

you

than that I swapped a read.

Lashing out today when he had me down as town for a while doesn't help that out.

Am I not supposed to reevaluate given all that's happened?
I

thought

I caught a daytalk slip from him, and I maintain that it was a reasonable thing for scum that had daytalk to say -- but it doesn't add up because any team sans Godot/Bub could've quickhammered me now with it (I'd been waiting for Lucky to post before I said this). His inquiry into Bub about the early game selfvote is silly and serves no purpose other than to fabricate a scummy interaction.

My "Mehdi quickwagon" as you want to put it wasn't a quickwagon at all -- I'd very noticeably been waving his flag all day; prior to that point, though, no one had been willing to run with me on it.

Ree

Uses a lot of logic that I don't agree with; see mostly his case against DJD early on. Seemed at least genuine when I pressed him on it. Was a little better D2 and caused me to side with him over Johhog who had a pretty weak case. His D3 claim was poorly executed -- the pro-town way to claim that role would've been to lay down the role name, what it did, and BOTH of your targets immediately. The more incrementally you do it the more I'm forced to believe that you wanted to gauge people's reactions before you decided what you're going to say. You can

say

you're reaction testing there, but the fact of the matter is that the more you say up front, the more likely people are to think that you're being honest with them and not changing your story based on how people initially respond to it.

Your suspicion of me mostly seems to revolve on the fact that I was the hammer vote on both Sala and Johhog and that I might've hammered to "stifle conversation". This strikes me as odd, considering how close we were to deadline, the fact that you knew exactly where I stood on the issues before I hammered, the fact that the other wagon was on YOU, and the fact that I gave people up plenty of time to chime in before I dropped it. The scum thing to do there would've been to shut up and hope for a No Lynch, thereby giving no one any flip info. I'm curious as to if you can adequately describe an alternate course of action there that would've been more pro-town or if you're just blowing smoke.

Overall, you're scummy, but not as scummy as Lucky or Godot. If your claim does turn out to be fake, I'm going to be really, really upset with myself.

HOS: Lucky
FOS: Godot (could easily flip but I have a hunch Lucky will get wagonned before Godot ever would today).

p-edit: figures someone would wall right as I was walling. haven't read it yet.

[Luckyjt]

I dont understand what you mean by defensiveness. Of course I have to defend myself when someone thinks Im scum. Im not going to let them lynch me. How does make me scum?

Bork, Godot, and Bub all of you are passivley saying I am scum yet I havnt gotten votes from any of you. Its funny how my biggest scum read Ree is the only one who is thinking im town at the moment.

Based on the recent event Godot is by far the most scummy from these three. WHy? Because he flip flopped his reads on me based on what others think. Godot says Im scum, then Ree says Im town, Godot starts saying I am looking more towny than before, a couple post later Bub says I am scum and now Godot says I am scum. ????

Anyone else see this flip flop? The only problem with this is that I dont think a Godot Ree team is possible so I am sonfused.

And godot it is very proveable that i will vote myself when I am angry. Ask Bub in our open game were I was a town cop/role cop and I voted myself at like L-3 because I felt the town was acting dumb.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Allrighty -- I'm not gonna go through a "What-if" thing on every player. I don't think that's particularly productive and I think would "muddy the waters" as Ree put it -- I'm instead going to touch on what I think are the most likely scenarios.

Bub

Bub is starting to worry me a little -- Day 1 and Day 2 play are town, through and through, but his Day 3 play has been pretty much "throw a vote down and coast" which is undermining the previous two days. If he is town, and my gut is still saying he is, then the scumteam just has no stones and don't think they can coordinate a quickhammer before Bub gets back and busts them. This probably means Lucky is on the scumteam, since he's much less consistently around than either Godot or especially Ree. Thus I will say that if Bub is town, Lucky is definitely scum.

Lucky

The chameleon read -- my read on him has mostly fit around how I feel about everyone else since he has so little content. I will say this though -- he looks like he's looking for an easy out on D3 with Ree -- he's got little oomph behind his suspicion (unlike myself). I thought I had him dead to rights on D1 with his ill-timed AtE, but his head kind of stayed in the clouds and I don't have the benefit of past play with him besides Micro 3 which barely got off the ground before town won to see if he's BSing me. I will say that #569 is a bad, bad post -- you specifically are trying to get me to keep all my options open and undermine my read on Bub.

Godot

Good D1 play. Slightly reserved D2 play. Has received essentially no pressure throughout the entire game -- fine in and of itself, but the minute I exert any, he seriously starts to overreact and start pointing at me. Seems like you're more upset that I swapped a read on

you

than that I swapped a read.

Lashing out today when he had me down as town for a while doesn't help that out.

Am I not supposed to reevaluate given all that's happened?
I

thought

I caught a daytalk slip from him, and I maintain that it was a reasonable thing for scum that had daytalk to say -- but it doesn't add up because any team sans Godot/Bub could've quickhammered me now with it (I'd been waiting for Lucky to post before I said this). His inquiry into Bub about the early game selfvote is silly and serves no purpose other than to fabricate a scummy interaction.

My "Mehdi quickwagon" as you want to put it wasn't a quickwagon at all -- I'd very noticeably been waving his flag all day; prior to that point, though, no one had been willing to run with me on it.

Ree

Uses a lot of logic that I don't agree with; see mostly his case against DJD early on. Seemed at least genuine when I pressed him on it. Was a little better D2 and caused me to side with him over Johhog who had a pretty weak case. His D3 claim was poorly executed -- the pro-town way to claim that role would've been to lay down the role name, what it did, and BOTH of your targets immediately. The more incrementally you do it the more I'm forced to believe that you wanted to gauge people's reactions before you decided what you're going to say. You can

say

you're reaction testing there, but the fact of the matter is that the more you say up front, the more likely people are to think that you're being honest with them and not changing your story based on how people initially respond to it.

Your suspicion of me mostly seems to revolve on the fact that I was the hammer vote on both Sala and Johhog and that I might've hammered to "stifle conversation". This strikes me as odd, considering how close we were to deadline, the fact that you knew exactly where I stood on the issues before I hammered, the fact that the other wagon was on YOU, and the fact that I gave people up plenty of time to chime in before I dropped it. The scum thing to do there would've been to shut up and hope for a No Lynch, thereby giving no one any flip info. I'm curious as to if you can adequately describe an alternate course of action there that would've been more pro-town or if you're just blowing smoke.

Overall, you're scummy, but not as scummy as Lucky or Godot. If your claim does turn out to be fake, I'm going to be really, really upset with myself.

HOS: Lucky
FOS: Godot (could easily flip but I have a hunch Lucky will get wagonned before Godot ever would today).

p-edit: figures someone would wall right as I was walling. haven't read it yet.

Notice how many options he's leaving open to him.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I dont understand what you mean by defensiveness. Of course I have to defend myself when someone thinks Im scum. Im not going to let them lynch me. How does make me scum?

Bork, Godot, and Bub all of you are passivley saying I am scum yet I havnt gotten votes from any of you. Its funny how my biggest scum read Ree is the only one who is thinking im town at the moment.

Based on the recent event Godot is by far the most scummy from these three. WHy? Because he flip flopped his reads on me based on what others think. Godot says Im scum, then Ree says Im town, Godot starts saying I am looking more towny than before, a couple post later Bub says I am scum and now Godot says I am scum. ????

Anyone else see this flip flop? The only problem with this is that I dont think a Godot Ree team is possible so I am sonfused.

And godot it is very proveable that i will vote myself when I am angry. Ask Bub in our open game were I was a town cop/role cop and I voted myself at like L-3 because I felt the town was acting dumb.

You post defensiveness to the exclusion of reading the game for what it is. You don't seem to look past your attackers. That makes some sense, but not when this is the bulk of your reasoning. And we haven't voted yet because we're trying to get as much information as we possibly can before we have to end the day with a lynch. Once again, you fail to see the point of prolonging the day. We still have about 4 and a half RL days before we must lynch. For now, we're still going in the HoS/FoS format for the most part. Besides, you said we shouldn't cast down votes until you found Ree's supposed scumpartner.

Now I suggest we dont vote yet in order to see if we can find his partner for tomorrow if we decide to lynch Ree.

I am having a very hard time figuring this out. I want everyone to answer me this question. Would you be willing to vote Ree. If yes why, if not why not and who do you see as scum over him. I want everyone's thoughts down so It can help me decide who his partner is. I have a nose for telling who's answers is fake-smelling.

I don't see where that's happened. You call me a flip-flop and here you are first saying "Don't vote until I find Ree's partner" and then asking "Why haven't you voted me if I'm so scummy?"

And calm down. I don't care much to hear why you vote for yourself or the fact that you do because it seems like you're playing a gambit based on meta. Again, you accuse Ree of taking himself off the lynch table without reason or merit and here you are forcing the point home to where if any of us dares think you, of all people, are scum, you'll ragequit. It's a game. Yes, we pour ourselves into it, but if it aggravates you that much, step back from the computer.

And again, you try to tear holes in reasoning, but where are the facts that close those gaps?