Micro 895: Think Twice (Thanks for Playing!)

[eth0s]

I don't really have time to hard sort this tonight but I might tomorrow afternoon

good to see that your "yeah, I'm gonna go reevaluate the game" was literally just "I'm gonna go case your predecessor" eth0s

that's cool of u

This is a giant misrep and when you JUST replaced into the game and I already called who I thought the scumteam was before you even got in.... sorry about your luck but you took a scum slot.

[tris]

I don't really have time to hard sort this tonight but I might tomorrow afternoon

good to see that your "yeah, I'm gonna go reevaluate the game" was literally just "I'm gonna go case your predecessor" eth0s

that's cool of u

i'll talk to you then

[Menalque]

I don't really have time to hard sort this tonight but I might tomorrow afternoon

good to see that your "yeah, I'm gonna go reevaluate the game" was literally just "I'm gonna go case your predecessor" eth0s

that's cool of u

This is a giant misrep and when you JUST replaced into the game and I already called who I thought the scumteam was before you even got in.... sorry about your luck but you took a scum slot.

please explain to me how that's a misrep

[Menalque]

I think town you would at least be thinking here but instead you're just gonna keep pushing me without even raising the possibility to yourself that tris could be deepwolfing here and letting a TvT blow up

I have literally never dismissed that idea once

huh okay I misread slightly I thought that you'd actually said you were gonna look at tris again but I think I just extrapolated from this

but honestly I find your continued tunnelling of my slot really fucking scummy

you say that you haven't dsimissed that idea but the way you're playing is showing that you pretty much have. you've obsessively focused on my slot and I don't think that's natural for town

[Menalque]

I'm gonna ISO eth0s first because I think from his entire reaction here he probably is scum and honestly eth0s if you're town and this is how you're choosing to deal with my slot (especially focussing on volpe who can't explain herself and I can't explain for her) then we prob deserve to lose

like I literally entered the game and you were going "oh sorry you're in a scumslot mena"

your entire behaviour has been geared towards getting me lynched or devaluing my presence in this thread rather than trying to sort me or let me have any impact in the game

[eth0s]

(especially focussing on volpe who can't explain herself and I can't explain for her)

I tried to get her to explain and she responded by replacing out.

[eth0s]

devaluing my presence in this thread

you came into this game tunneling me and shooting down everything I said

[eth0s]

I don't know how to get it through your head that you're being a hypocrite and/or replaced into a scum slot.

[eth0s]

I think town you would at least be thinking here but instead you're just gonna keep pushing me without even raising the possibility to yourself that tris could be deepwolfing here and letting a TvT blow up

I have literally never dismissed that idea once

huh okay I misread slightly I thought that you'd actually said you were gonna look at tris again but I think I just extrapolated from this

but honestly I find your continued tunnelling of my slot really fucking scummy

you say that you haven't dsimissed that idea but the way you're playing is showing that you pretty much have. you've obsessively focused on my slot and I don't think that's natural for town

I literally went on a half page tangent about tris and even when I realized I misinterpretted something I still pointed out possibilities that come from scum!tris.

If I was scum I wouldn't be pushing you so hard. Volpe "thought" I was town and therefore wanted tris by PoE. Tris agreed with that you were scum by PoE before you even replaced in. If I was scum I would be letting both of your slots fight with each other and I would feign uncertainty on who to lynch.

But the reality is I'm town and town!volpe absolutely fucked this game over by repping out without responding to my criticism, or scum!volpe pulled a really cheap and stupid tactic because she was playing like obvscum.

[eth0s]

Like I really don't know how to reason with you if you're just being this blatantly hypocritical and stubborn so there's a good chance I'll ignore you and prod dodge until tris comes back and gives input if you're just gonna continue to do what you've done all game

[Menalque]

okay, let's go through the eth0s ISO then

I think his early posts are bad especially in light of the angles he's been taking later on

look at 123 -- makes a bad argument for why scum wouldn't hammer a buddy early on. Again, I am pretty sure that I've seen a minimicro where scum did exactly that. It was an old game I read through the wiki I think, I can try to find it but it'll be difficult.

but the main thing is that he starts this early, his 4th post in the game, suggesting that volpe would wanna put someone (in this case goon!sau) to L-1 and then push the hammerer D2. this becomes important later given his argument around ele/volpe. notice how he's also keeping distance from the read ("volpe seems town in a vacuum")

there's also the matter of elements. he v conspicuously greets elements when he comes into the thread, and is SRing him for his entrance at 124. now, I'm not sure, but I think that elements wasn't generally particularly seen as scummy when he entered by most of the thread. it was specifically eth0s who called him out early, and even then it was in a kind of weird way. ("No one should particularly love me either since I have one real post and it revolves around tinfoil. So I'll give elements the benefit of the doubt since I don't really feel much to respond to either.

However I want him to keep true to 116 rather than just wait around to "be impressed" I guess you could say.

VOTE: elements")

tbh that reads like distancing to me. he's not really trying to get elements through, but he is on a super early vote there. also just the fact that his first vote happened to be on the goon isn't something I love (as for town that should only be a 25% chance) but I'm not putting as much weight in it as this is a smaller game. it was for weak reasons though, and that should be ringing alarm bells for you.

----

then regarding tris, immediately after this, he goes from "tris is my null read but my gut leans scum on that overall" (125) to "Disregard this completely. I thought this was similar to scum!tris play in micro 883 but it is actually like polar opposite I think.

For context that is my only game with her before this one (I think)" (126) and then to "She can be town for now too" (127)

I don't think this is organic. I think this is forced organic. I think probably he did have the thought about you being different between the two games, but I think the first was inserted to try and show that he had a sort of progression there --> from scum!tris to town!tris. I think town probably doesn't feel the need to actually put you in town here after realising their buzz is wrong. it's trying to make too much trajectory from too little information.

I actually think that 139 might be weird in terms of perspective too, actually? eth0s says "yeah, a townflip there means the hammerer is probably scum". so eth0s says that "If he and I are a team then why would I go through all of the trouble to explain why I don't think a quickhammerer would be his scummate there? If that were my angle I would have quickhammered him." only he

couldn't

quick hammer him bc he

knew

it was flipping town and was aware of how a town flip based on a super early quick hammer would look. so instead he ends up making the case that not quick hammering supports a world where he and saud aren't the team knowing that if saud does go down then he can use this to make him look townier.

honestly, that's not one of the stronger things about eth0s but I think it's still prob worth mentioning. if you think it doesn't make sense then maybe I'm just confbiasing.

----

I think 140 is playing himself down as scum -- go and read some of MMRT tris, I'll link it (viewtopic.php?t=80648&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go). he was very nearly able to deep wolf his way through into the endgame there based on day play and honestly his only main error was going for a bad fake claim + getting spotted by one person who happened to have vig powers, so I don't think he's really bad at all as scum and I don't see the incentive for town!him not to just be truthful that he plays a good scum game. again, this isn't a major point and I don't think it's condemning of him, but I think it's interesting to look at how it fits into the pattern as a whole

143 makes me think that this is a setup that eth0s has been angling for since early game. that's a very early point to call out two people as not the same alignment imo, and doesn't really fit with someone who claims they don't think they're great at the game. if eth0s was planning to bus elements and go to 3p lylo with you + 1 of me/sau then it makes sense to get this out there early

then imo between 145 and 207 eth0s isn't really doing anything and is just trying to look busy (possible exceptions: 186, 188)

----

I think 243 is artificial. can't really say more than that. I don't think your play particularly changed in between where eth0s thought it was different to your scum game, to where he thought you and elements couldn't be the same alignment but never took his SR of elements away, to here. I TR you throughout that and you're just gonna have to decide whether you think his perception of your game changing there was genuine or if it was him making something up because he felt like he had to produce something.

then 258 is where I have to approach this from my pov entirely but I think is also stronger evidence for him scum. he's happy with lynching between two town here. I think the plan is p clear for him. vote one, get elements to hammer, bus his buddy, pick on the other one to target in lylo.

262 is dual functional. it (1) sets up more of his 'progression' on you or (2) if the others seem receptive to it, gives him a chance of who to get ele to push between volpe/saud in the expectation that they might vote you in lylo. again, I know this isn't gonna be the most persuasive thing in the world because it's entirely fmpov, but if you take a second and look at while operating in the world of town!me I think you'll see the logic behind what I'm saying.

also, I misremembered about elements' interactions from last game. I think it was TL that I was mixing him up with. so no, he doesn't particularly interact with his buddies more than other members of town. (here is the elements ISO from that game viewtopic.php?t=80648&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go) but nor do I think he particularly ignores them. I don't see it being beyond scum!eth0s' range to tell ele to ignore someone in the PT to try and create false associationals especially if the plan all along was bussing, but yeah, this one isn't as strong as I thought

----

then there's just some basic contradictions between posts like 277 and 330. this whole period is kind of telling. he doesn't demonstrate where his supposed SR on you went, almost like it never existed at all. he goes straight for 334 where he's calling volpe scum with ele and bussing, including using 335 as support for this theory when he should know that it's no good for proof considering that ignored several slots in MMRT when they were town and actually did interact with eth0s (albeit not loads). again, just check the ISO I linked for him and see for yourself. I don't find it plausible that eth0s would just forget this when that game was so recent.

then 344 says that "one of the 3 of us is deepwolfing" yet despite his earlier expressed doubts about you, that disappears here and he never bothers to revisit your slot. why would you do that if you're sure that someone is deep wolfing and you had serious concerns about a slot earlier? I think the Occam's answer here is bc you need that person to vote with you in lylo and you don't wanna alienate them. he's showed enough doubt early on for you to not feel like you're being pocketed, then he completely forgets that he was skeptical of you (he still says he may have doubts but he never acts on them)

then there's a gap of some posts that I don't think are very AI. 365 is again relying on a bad reason to "confirm" volpe/ele as the team.

----

posts after this are from when I'm in the game but eth0s literally doesn't care about giving me the time of day. despite his beliefs of there being a deep wolf he's so set on it being me/ele that his aim from the moment I join is to keep up his momentum against my slot. (374, 392)

then I think I got it right about his progression on you being faked so that he can literally rely on it as a defence in 432

I think I've made it pretty clear here how his play has been manufactured, in response to 433. I don't think his reads really progressed -- they all seemed to basically end up where they started. tris is good. ele is scum. one of volpe/saud is scum.

he went for saying that one of volpe/saud needed to die D1. after that happens there's some humming and hawing but then he goes back to ele is scum, tris is town, and pushing the other of volpe/saud, in this case my slot.

I don't think that's a town/real progression. if you disagree, okay, tell me why? we're probably losing but I'm pretty sure eth0s is scum here

like there is no point where eth0s considers that you might be scum

in how he acts

despite having apparently had this opinion earlier and believing someone was deep wolfing. look at 439 for another example.

----

454 is honestly just a misrep, I didn't come into the game deathtunneling him and my ISO is literally proof of that. I came in knowing that there were 2/3 scum in (ele, eth0s, tris) and on reading through my early leans on tris were town. yeah, this meant that I started to think that eth0s' posts were prob from scum, alongside the constant attempts to shade me and push me from the moment I repped in, and I haven't seen anything to contradict this. but saying I did this from the moment I came in rather than reaching that conclusion when he had a 66% raw chance of being scum fmpov is just patently false

stuff like 464 is actually just him AtEing rather than engaging with what I've been saying. I think I've shown pretty clearly why his play is manufactured from where I'm seeing it.

468 I was saying how his play was obviously scummy once I'd started to see him as scum, something I never really did in MMRT because he hard pocketed me early on. but I think his overall play has been better because in this game he's clearly thought about his endgame and has been working to set that up, rather than playing on the fly like he was there. so even if Ive been better at identifying him as scum, doesn't mean that I can't think his scum game is overall better here, and I think that's p easy to understand

I honestly have no idea what tf is going on in his argument of 472. why in the world would I use the logic of my obviously about to be flipped scum buddy to try and get you lynched? that's just dumb af for me as scum and you trying to use that as a justification for "MENA IS SCUMCLAIMING" is just false as fuck

ignoring the stuff where he wildly misread your post bc that's probably NAI. I think the emotion overall is prob mildly scum!indicative tho, bc it seems more likely from scum being pissed off that a slot that was kinda dead and being resigned and was pretty well set for the game winning mislynch was replaced with me, and I do not get mislynched without fighting my arse off to make it clear that it's a mistake.

----

I think I've already laid out a thought process for scum you that makes significantly more sense than this one (510), it's up to tris to decide which one she thinks is right bc I'm p sure you're just scum

the way you've interacted around me just isn't town, sorry. if you were town you'd have had doubts here but instead you just tried to discredit me from the moment I repped in rather than wait to see if I would have any insights about the gamestate, and it's because you knew you had to act early and fast to stop me getting any sort of foothold in the game

if I'm wrong and it's tris scum then honestly you've played an appalling towngame and you need to reconsider how you approach these things in future because I don't see how you can expect to not be SR for going after a slot like this before they've even produced that much content

[Menalque]

VOTE: eth0s

tris if you're scum GG

if you want me to explain anything else from above, lmk

[Menalque]

like I've done everything I can to save this slot from being mislynched from an awful position and I don't think there's much else that I can do

if you wanna look at my case and tell me that comes from scum, okay, nothing else I can do. that's literally as town as I can get.

also worth noting just from a meta perspective that I am about a square mile out of my scum!meta here. every time I've been fucked as scum then I've just lurked out and prodged, and the resignation comes through. every time I've been looking like a mislynch as town I've fought like hell to stop if from happening.

I'll link a couple of my games to prove it

[Menalque]

it's very noticeable here: [link]viewtopic.php?t=80296&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go[/link]

and here: [link]viewtopic.php?f=23&t=80608&start=900[/link]

whereas you can see me fighting a mislynch against me here: [link]viewtopic.php?t=80240&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go[/link]

and especially here: [link]viewtopic.php?t=80540&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go[/link]

before you vote read my ISOs there and tell me whether I'm scum or town this game

[Menalque]

it's very noticeable here: viewtopic.php?t=80296&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... r_sort=Go
and here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=80608&start=900

whereas you can see me fighting a mislynch against me here: viewtopic.php?t=80240&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

and especially here: viewtopic.php?t=80540&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

before you vote read my ISOs there and tell me whether I'm scum or town this game

ebwop

[Menalque]

Like I really don't know how to reason with you if you're just being this blatantly hypocritical and stubborn so there's a good chance I'll ignore you and prod dodge until tris comes back and gives input if you're just gonna continue to do what you've done all game

p sure you've just realised that engaging with me is just gonna let me obvtown harder so you're gonna hope that your shitty case on volpe stands up and that tris votes me for it

if you're town then it's already gg scum and like I said you need to rethink how you approach a replace in because the stuff you're accusing me of is literally what you've done to me

I came in open minded but knowing that any of you had a 66% chance of being scum and reacted to your posts appropriately to that knowledge. you on the other hand have just tried to shade me nonstop throughout my play

[Menalque]

I think town you would at least be thinking here but instead you're just gonna keep pushing me without even raising the possibility to yourself that tris could be deepwolfing here and letting a TvT blow up

I have literally never dismissed that idea once

huh okay I misread slightly I thought that you'd actually said you were gonna look at tris again but I think I just extrapolated from this

but honestly I find your continued tunnelling of my slot really fucking scummy

you say that you haven't dsimissed that idea but the way you're playing is showing that you pretty much have. you've obsessively focused on my slot and I don't think that's natural for town

I literally went on a half page tangent about tris and even when I realized I misinterpretted something I still pointed out possibilities that come from scum!tris.

If I was scum I wouldn't be pushing you so hard. Volpe "thought" I was town and therefore wanted tris by PoE. Tris agreed with that you were scum by PoE before you even replaced in. If I was scum I would be letting both of your slots fight with each other and I would feign uncertainty on who to lynch.

But the reality is I'm town and town!volpe absolutely fucked this game over by repping out without responding to my criticism, or scum!volpe pulled a really cheap and stupid tactic because she was playing like obvscum.

stop trying to make me explain what I can't explain. idk why volpe believed you were town > tris, but if anything this is more evidence for me town. why do I come in and try to mislynch you if my predecessor was angling for a mislynch elsewhere? that's just dumb, and I think I'm p obviously not dumb, whatever else people might think about me. I'd be much better off trying to persuade you that you were wrong on tris if that were the case

also, I don't believe you about your point of letting us fight it out. I think that you know enough about me from MMRT where I was never really even considered as a mislynch throughout the game that you knew letting me get a presence established would be really bad for you as scum if I reached that conclusion. plus, my strength as a player is definitely knowing when someone is making a badly justified push on me, it's one of my main ways of catching scum. can't remember if I talked about that in MMRT or not, but anyway, the point is that scum!you after pushing me can quite reasonably assume that I'm gonna realise that you're scum. so you need to push me hard before I get into the game properly, which is entirely consistent with what you've done

[Menalque]

but keep coming at me eth0s, I'm not just gonna lie down and let you mislynch me. if you think that this play EVER comes from scum!me or that it's even vaguely within my range then you're clearly talking shit. so either you should be rethinking your play because we're gonna lose as you can't read me at all or you're ignoring what's blatantly in front of you which is me being towny as hell because you need to be intentionally oblivious to how town I am because you're hoping my mislynch is gonna win you the game

all tris needs to do is decide which is more likely here

[Menalque]

and for that matter, why do I put this much effort into a scum game where I literally repped in D2 and a loss wouldn't even vaguely be on me compared to volpe!scum

I would lose absolutely nothing as scum here to just half arse it and go along with what volpe was pushing. instead I came in, completely re-evaluated, and have been hard efforting throughout. that is so much more town!indicative for me than it is scum!indicative it's literally insane

[eth0s]

"why are you tunneling me without looking at tris?"

continues to tunnel the hell out of me and throws down a vote before anyone can even read/respond

[eth0s]

like if you're actually town you need to remove that vote right now and engage me in some kind of conversation because that's a lot of wasted effort to lose to a quickhammer

[tris]

not hammering

[Menalque]

cool, I was right

not super surprised tbh

[eth0s]

tris I swear to god if you're trolling just please don't

I want to effort but not if you're just fucking with me

[Menalque]

tris if you wanna ask me any questions then go ahead but I've p much said my piece

I'm going to the movies in a minute so won't be able to answer until later/tomorrow tho