Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[BipolarChemist]

HI PUNKS

VOTE: MINA

This is cute.

VOTE: BipolarChemist

This is rude.

that. is my. avatar. quilford.

VOTE: quil

This is ETL!

HI!

VOTE: mara

[BipolarChemist]

Gosh Mara stop being such a try hard

Serra: hey, sup? I think we should start the game off working together, and figure the others alignment down the road. paranoia is a incessant thing between us, and if you're town, we don't need it to come in between us winning the game/causing unnecessary distractions. If you're scum, imma lynch you anyway.

This feels like an odd olive branch at the start. Like hey don't suspect me early game and if you do I'm gonna yell at you for doing such a thing.

I haven't played much with either of them, but do they tend to get distracted by each other?

Jason: I loved spending time with you, and would love to be able to catch scum with you, so don't be scum!

If you don't know (which most probably don't!) I'm Jason

[BipolarChemist]

This feels like an odd olive branch at the start. Like hey don't suspect me early game and if you do I'm gonna yell at you for doing such a thing.

I agree with this, but my initial thought was also that she's immediately treating him as town.

This can go either way though. Scum treating a player as town because they know they're town, Town treating a player as an initial read to get things going. It's pretty much WIFOM at this stage!

I am always wary of anyone trying to do so, and Mara implicitly stating that she wanted to skip it seemed to me like she wanted to state what she was doing in an effort not to get flak for it. Kind of like scumMastin going "I'm not really trying" in order to not be scum read for not trying.

IMO, the kind of post Mara made was one that was obviously going to be heavily looked at right away. And I don't think I fully get what you mean about the not trying bit, I'v gotten the impression of the opposite from Mara!

VOTE: ETL

Being too knee-jerky

What do you see that's knee-jerky in his posts?

A couple of questions/statements that seem a bit ill-thought-out.

Which ones?

First sentence of #23, #24, #28. Can you see why?

I agree with this! Now I can't tell if it's just ETL jumping to quick conclusions or scumTL actually trying to pass off these concepts.

[BipolarChemist]

You're making my day, you really are

But, as scum what benefits would I get from lying about something that can be easily looked up?

Because most people don't. It's fine for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bb

While I fully agree on disliking BB's post, I don't think it's alignment indicative.

Also, I don't understand your retort to Mara here. Most people don't...lie? So if you're saying that she might be lying, do you think it's likely for scum to do such a thing?

[BipolarChemist]

I like quil so far.

That's because quilfy is supah cute all the time. It clouds your judgement

[BipolarChemist]

While I fully agree on disliking BB's post, I don't think it's alignment indicative.

Do you think anything is alignment-indicative so far, BPC?

Not overly alignment indicative, no! There are a couple things that ping out like ETL's posting, but that's something most seem to be picking up on.

Mara's posting doesn't feel like mara to me. I've only played with her a very little bit, but like it feels either heavily influenced by her team or mara really stepping up her game. My first indication is to townread her posts, but I don't wanna jump to that considering possible influences!

Quilford is cuting it up, but that seems like general Quilford to me, pulling a townread early on from that seems dangerous! Looking beyond that, he's had some good posting, but nothing jumping out at me too hard.

[BipolarChemist]

Not overly alignment indicative, no! There are a couple things that ping out like ETL's posting, but that's something most seem to be picking up on.

I'm not picking up on it--I mean, I'm sort of skimming right now and haven't followed the exact post numbers of Quil's case, but she seems fine right now.

Please explain exactly what "pings out" in her posts. And where you've seen Quilford play like this.

You're posting a lot like scum right now, FYI. Are you always this wishy-washy?

The past couple pages, a good portion of my posts have been commenting on ETL posts. A good portion just generally have thoughts or ideas that seem fairly wrong. Mara and Quilford have both pointed these out too. I'd recommend looking at the things Quilfy pointed out. A couple of these kinds of posts from ETL, I can understand. Jumping to a conclusion really quickly posting, then being pointe out that you're wrong, but ETL has had a good stream of these iffy posts! This is what pings for me!

As for Quilford, I don't think I have played with him! But I've talked to him a good bit on site chat and stuff and he's generally a very cutesy, nice person. Him being able to turn on charm in a game would not surprise me one bit and I feel like he's been very charming this game. He's definitely had some good posting that may put him into slightly more of a townread for me, but I don't want to jump to anything too quickly, the game has been going on for like 2 hours.

I don't see how I'm posting like scum! I feel like not being solid on any reads two hours into a game is pretty normal? Honestly, I'd be scared if people said they had hard reads at this point. As for am I always this wishy washy? Usually, yes!

Why on earth would I be townreading him for being cute?

It's easy to pass off someone who is being nice in a game, I think. Show a resemblance of caring and knowledge, add in some charm, I feel like someone could easily be passed off for town with that.

When have we played a game together beeps?

Advance Wars! I could swear there was another but I can't remember at all

I think it's really weird that BPC is assigning his own reasons for

my

read.

Maybe it's early, maybe I'm dumb, which read are you talking about here?

Where are you getting "most" from? I've seen you and Quilford say it, but that's it.

I'm more talking about most as in out of the people discussing ETLs posts. Mara and Quilford I found to be heavily questioning what ETL has put down and I wasn't getting the impression they liked it!

[BipolarChemist]

I'm walling already <3

[BipolarChemist]

Is that in response to my question?

[BipolarChemist]

Why is it terrible?

[BipolarChemist]

I don't think there's enough to read from though.

For Mara, I said I've liked her posting so far, I've found it town, but I have reservations about having a townread right now. For Quilford, it's kind of the same thing. I'm giving an explanation for why I don't want to plunk down on one read or another yet, even if I have leanings.

[BipolarChemist]

I thought I may have been slightly crazy in not liking Mina's posting (more specifically post 79), but my PT-mates share my sentiment.

She said that she had been skimming the game and then started talking about my thoughts on ETL and not seeing what I was saying. I don't understand how you can jump from...

I'm not picking up on it--I mean, I'm sort of skimming right now and haven't followed the exact post numbers of Quil's case,

to...

but she seems fine right now.

That's blatantly not caring about reads, yet she's picking up on me having reservations about townreading a couple people early on? Okay...

[BipolarChemist]

I'll accept it for now

I haven't played with Patrick! Does he tend to like scum more, Mina?

[BipolarChemist]

I made a number of comments on ETL's posts before I made the post you questioned. Really it was most of what I had done up to that point!

As for me saying you were blatantly not caring about reads. You stated in your post that you hadn't followe the exact post numbers from Quilford and had been skimming. My impression was that you picked up on me without reading too much into the game and weren't going back at all the corroborate what you were saying. So to me, it really looked like you weren't even trying to read ETL and your "she looks fine to me" bit came across as not paying attention.

[BipolarChemist]

I don't think he's been any more wishy-washy than normal, and in fact know more about what he thinks than I do most others. Is that based on a specific meta?

Have we played together or this is something more from your PT?

[BipolarChemist]

@patrick: Where were you getting that I'm not being any more wishy washy than normal? (I haven't played with CES before I don't think, or it was a while ago and I don't remember, in fact I had to look up who CES was because I didn't know the acronym!)

[BipolarChemist]

Quilford: Because it feels like this player list is really easily PoE-able. You, ETL, and probably serra are town. Now I think Patrick looks town (although he's the one person who I think could really fuck us over if he's scum). Mara looks kind of genuine, except she's sort of in the same general fuzzy bunny scumbag as, e.g., Malakittens in Wicked who posts a lot of nice posts about safer topics, so sure, she can be in my extended lynch pool. But that leaves Alchemist, BPC, and BBmolla. BBmolla is really readable, so we'll know one way or another soon.

Reads I don't understand here: ETL and Serra. Serra has made like 2 posts, neither with much content. Why the quick town read? And you said you think ETL is fine before, but why? What do you think about the arguments brought up against ETL's points earlier and do you think her posting could be read as scummy then?

[BipolarChemist]

And you, serra, and etl are very probably town

ETL hit town rediculously early and serras response to me was highly favorable and it's difficult seeing that actually coming from a town perspective.

I don't understand the Serra read at this point like at all. Serra really hasn't done much, IMO. At this point, the bulk of what he ha done was agreeing with you that you shouldn't be super paranoid of each other, with some general comment on why you two get paranoid. He asked a fair question after, but nothing not obvious. I don't see that post coming from town or scum. So why do you have a probably town read on him?

It ended up being more a case of "why not"

ETL hit town rediculously early and serras response to me was highly favorable and it's difficult seeing that actually coming from a town perspective.

Can you explain your serrapaladin town read? (I'm not parsing where it comes from.)

And where does your serra town read come from, Mina? (Also, could you please respond to my message a couple pages back. Still waiting yo)

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

For my own description of my typical play: I'm generally quiet, post in walls, lots of the time just responding to things rather than actively hunting. This has been true for both my scum and town games IMO.

My teammates are parsing through Alchemist and wanted to bring up a few posts where he's pretty heavily deflecting or the "No you" defense!

Spoiler: Buncha Alchy Posts

I was honest. I prefer being scum because it's usually more enjoyable, but I'm a stronger player as Town, and from a tactical standpoint making me Town is the better move.

I also don't get how people are scumreading me while Townreading BPC. We're doing the same things, just BPC has more words.

VOTE: Alchemist21

No reads. Not scumhunting.

You criticize me but not BBMolla? I'm starting to think you're just sheeping Mina.

VOTE: Quilford

^Says the guy who was the first of 2 to sheep onto my wagon. This is the fourth time you've said you had a reads list and refused to post it. You haven't done any scumhunting, and for you to vote someone else for that is just hypocritical bullshit.

Also, we're all kinda iffy on Mina's posting still. There are a number of things that feel odd to us.

This game looks like it'll be really easy so far, by the way.

What makes this game look so easy? (Well at the time of posting this). I don't see the direction of this post, it feels unnecessarily cocky. I haven't played with you, but from general talking, this feels out of character.

Quilford, Regfan says you're scum who's doing distancing with Alchemist and buddying up to me.

(Not "I think Quilford is scummy." "Hey, guess what, the scum in your game are Alchemist and Quilford." Regfan is weird sometimes.)

I don't see what's weird about a comment like that?

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

We feel like Quilford is generally experienced enough to hide things if he needed to and that your team might be underestimating him. Like I have a town lean on him still, but the amount of scrutiny you've put him under feels lacking, and you seem to have written him off as town.

I'm currently in between voting Alchemist and Mina.

UNVOTE: Mara

[BipolarChemist]

VOTE: Mina

[BipolarChemist]

I will worry gosh darn it!

The bits about overlooking Quilford came from earlier in this game, before your comment about Regfan's comment. There were a couple of times where you seemed to just lump him in as town.

Also, serial yo, respond to this:

Quilford: Because it feels like this player list is really easily PoE-able. You, ETL, and probably serra are town. Now I think Patrick looks town (although he's the one person who I think could really fuck us over if he's scum). Mara looks kind of genuine, except she's sort of in the same general fuzzy bunny scumbag as, e.g., Malakittens in Wicked who posts a lot of nice posts about safer topics, so sure, she can be in my extended lynch pool. But that leaves Alchemist, BPC, and BBmolla. BBmolla is really readable, so we'll know one way or another soon.

Reads I don't understand here: ETL and Serra. Serra has made like 2 posts, neither with much content. Why the quick town read? And you said you think ETL is fine before, but why? What do you think about the arguments brought up against ETL's points earlier and do you think her posting could be read as scummy then?

[BipolarChemist]

As for alignment relevancy, my comment on not thinking Regfan's stuff was weird is coming off of me feeling weird about your leaning on your partners in this game quite a bit. I've felt like you have some reads once in a while, but then make them ignorable by saying "but my partners think this so oh well".

[BipolarChemist]

I fell asleep last night writing it (READ MY POSTS ;_;).

I diiiiid and I sawwww I was giving you a nudge!

Actually, since it's not going to get a really interesting answer, I might as well give away serrapaladin is what I was driving at re: Quilford here, here, and here.

So you were looking for reads from Quilford and more specifically on Serra? (Excuse me if I'm reading this wrong!) I don't see how this has to do with much really. I don't think you got much of an answer either since Quilford kinda made his answer vague after his not wanting to make a readslist.

I was reading back in order to respond to you, went, "Huh, serrapaladin's big post is actually a lot less substantial than I remember. Maybe I should reevaluate." So then I had a moment of paranoia about Quilford for being all, "ilu Mina for your gorgeous reads!" (also, since I think that's the point where Empire started chiming in with, "Hey, Mina, watch out for Quilford, because Regfan and I have been TALKING about him" and I started getting paranoid).

As for why I initially townread him...I had a positive reaction to his big post because I agreed with virtually all his opinions, and I just liked the tone for some reason.

You put Serra as "probably town" with Quilford and ETL without much explanation. Serra had made two posts, one without much content. Even with agreeing with the points in one post, how can you call that town so quickly? I just don't understand that. Furthermore, I don't understand how you're now saying Serra could be scum. Serra has done nothing. I don't get how that's not null.

ETL I remember there were specific posts I townread (I forget what they are, but I'll look for them when I get home), but it's mostly gut and just that she looked like she was scumhunting in her interactions with Mara/Quilford. Quilford's actual case I thought was..eh, all right for an RVS case? ETL's first few posts were a bit iffy, although I don't know if "jumpy" is the word I'd use and I remember her looking a lot better at the point you jumped in. But your post felt very empty and felt more like it was subtly pushing the ETL-is-scummy-because-look-someone-made-a-case-on-it, but without joining the wagon or really coming across as though you sincerely believed it.

In the question I asked you to respond to, I even mentioned I had made a few posts before the one you're calling empty about some thing ETL had said. I was under the impression others were bothered by those posts too, which I pointed out. At that point ETL was probably the closest I'd be to calling someone scum. I also emphasized fairly heavily that I didn't have strong reads there too. I feel like you're slightly misrepresenting my post despite me pointing out that I had commented on a number of ETL's stuff beforehand.

(Speaking of which, where is ETL, I know she's been on today...?)

I buy the teammate argument--tbh, I was expecting someone to go, "Omigod, you're subtly casting doubt on Quilford by blaming Regfan." However, Empire and Regfan are both fantastic town players (not that Zar is bad by any means, either!), so their opinions have a lot of weight with me, and we're being very hands-on with each other's games so far. Expect their names to be mentioned a lot more.

My teammates are much better players than I am, but I feel as though if I were to just take their reads at face value and throw them out here, that's being kinda sketchy. Like I could see scum throwing out their partner's reads like you have and then having them easily glossed over, which I feel like even I have done (glossing over that is). For town, I feel like it's a bit lazy I guess? Like if you're saying a partner's read, but you are kindaish disagreeing or not seeing it, why are you not asking them and talking about it? When you're posting a read (like your partners thinking I'm townish, but you not), are they having more reasoning, are you actively discussing why or why not I or someone else is town or scum? I'm really bothered by these kinds of things you have been throwing out and hence my vote on you. And your response here feels very much so sloughing it off as "Oh they're better than me".

[BipolarChemist]

Hey y'all! I haven't caught up in the past couple pages, I'm just popping in to say I'm uber busy with work/other obligations! I will be back to making my walls tomorrow, I promise! (Sorry for dodgy post) (sorry for saying sorry) (sorry for that one too) D:

[BipolarChemist]

Your first three posts are literally nothing

Like good luck deflecting onto me, not my fault you fucking obv scummed in the first two pages.

I pointed out a number of other posts in my 229 of Alchemist deflecting. Just scroll down to the spoiler

I think it is generally something beneficial for scum to do, especially if they are deflecting onto town. They're thought process is probably "If I say hey you've been doing this to a town person, then they'll have to reflect and think oh well that might be more of a town action than scum". Like this thought process is obviously flawed when some things are either null, not really matching up, etc. I am interested in analyzing Alchy's deflection posts for this reason (I'm not doing now because I'm lazy and behind).

1) serrapaladin is now in my pool by PoE, since I have reasons to like most of the player list. He

could

be scum, basically.
3) Yep, I had an instinctive gut town read on him based on one post that I liked felt like trying. Why do you find that so out of the ordinary?
5) The game started yesterday, and so far, our conflicting schedules, time zones, and sleep patterns mean we've rarely been online at the same time--and when we have, they'll go, "hang on, I want to focus on this game first." As a result, our conversations about Twin Trap haven't really become a dialogue yet. (E.g., Regfan's reads were messages on Skype I saw after he'd gone to bed). Actually, I like that you made the observation about lack of discussion, since it's true so far, but it'll probably change soon

if Empire ever gets back to me about why he town reads you instead of putting it off to watch

The Walking Dead

HEY EMPIRE THIS IS A TEST ARE YOU READING THIS GAME YOU LAZY FUCKER?

6) I don't know, I get why an outsider might dislike it, but I much prefer being transparent and sharing this kind of inter-team stuff, particularly since, e.g., I don't feel comfortable pushing a you-wagon when half my team is against it. (I mostly mentioned the Regfan reads as pressure on Quilford, though.) And frankly, I suspect that people value their opinions more than mine, so I feel compelled to share them.

However, that was at least an improvement, so I'd thank you if you weren't messing with my biases and making the game harder.

1) + 3) I've never been a big fan of this logic. Like I can understand breaking it down to a few people by liking others, but I feel like that causes some to be ignored when looking at the game. Anyways, I'm still really disliking your early townread on Serra and feel like there was no basis for it, despite reasons you gave. An instinctive gut town read just feels like a cop out from properly trying to read into someone.
5) I can understand full discussion not happening yet, especially with so many games on the go, but that shouldn't stop you from laying down a question in your confessional. It was a over a full day later when you made this post after you said "Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo." Have you tried further discussion with them on that?
6) Opinions generally have an explanation, so my last question stands!

I actually don't know if I've played with BPC

I think I literally just assumed BPC was DV

:I

Is there a reason nobody wants to talk about/to me?

When I read posts, I'm looking for someone's reasonings behind things. You don't have this. I shouulddd be pressuring you for the reasonings, but I've been focused elsewhere!

RE BPC and Mina:

I get Town for both of these players. When BPC voted Mina, BBT told me he got Town vibes from him for not putting me at L-1. BPC's posts was set up so he could switch to me any time he wanted, but since then he's gone down the Mina path of interaction, so I'm pretty sure he's Town that's trying to get a good handle on the game.

I feel similarly about Mina. She didn't move to put me at L-1 just yet which she could have easily done by now. Her stream of conscious post was weird in that she picked at some pretty small and insignificant posts as what she liked/disliked, but the overall thought process she showed seems Town to me. BBT got scumvibes from her latest posts, but he's in agreement with me that a Quilford/Mina team doesn't make sense.

A couple things! Is not putting someone at L-1 a town thing to do? What if scum just don't want to drag attention to themselves?

I think ruling out pairings or ceasing looking into a player because they don't make sense with your current biggest scumread makes just doesn't make too much sense. I mean it's good to theorize pairings, but don't just write people off...

Titus said she feels like Quilford is the watch-immune goon and the scumteam wants him protected at all costs. It's part of why she's hard scumreading Molla because she thought his push on me was as a defense of Quilford.

I don't understand where this is coming from. Can you get clarification from her on why she thinks this?

I can't read wallposters

Cause I don't read wallposts

I'm not even gonna blame you. Wallpost reading sucks. (he says in a wall)

[BipolarChemist]

BPC looks better with his walls, although Egg warns that as scum he is often townread just for his style. I like that he pressures people on unanswered questions.

I've had 2 scum games on this site and Egg was in neither. Can I get something more in depth on this?

I didn't like BPC attacking me out of nowhere based solely on the fact that he saw other people doing the same thing, but my team (mostly sthar8) seems to think BPC is town. the only game with him that I remember was the lover game where we were scum together and he was super nervous about shit because ceph was in the game. I'm fine trusting my team on this one as a) I don’t have the meta and b) the meta I do have doesn't match so far.

I feel like this is not a good representation of my early post thinking you were scummier. You had a few views on the game that I did not agree with and I was getting vibes that other people were picking up on that too. My early read on you was not based off of just others.

[BipolarChemist]

You dont have to quote my whole monstrosity

I think in this level of game, scum are not gonna try to rush day, or at least in any obvious way like putting someone at L-1. At the very least, I wouldn't do it. (K I'll stop making an argument against your town points for me now )

Why think watch-immune is more important over track-immune?

[BipolarChemist]

Also I was supposed to post this, but I'm a bad person who didn't.



Look at all this sweetness, bitches! It makes you sick doesn't it

[BipolarChemist]

I'm nowhere near as confident, since I think competent scum can fake plausible cases and reads. But I do feel better about you given that the ETL read didn't completely come out of nowhere, and also that some of your posts weren't that fence-sitting in context. (E.g., "This can go either way though. Scum treating a player as town because they know they're town, Town treating a player as an initial read to get things going. It's pretty much WIFOM at this stage!" At the time, I was like, "This is complete wishy-washy filler about Mara--ooh, she could be scum, or she could be town!" but I realized a couple of nights ago your point was that ETL was pushing a WIFOM argument and I felt dumb.) Also, I'm in the same boat as ETL where I'm not interested in pushing someone my teammates are unanimously townreading.

I don't think I'm very competent scum I've had two games and my tactic was lurk to shit.

I feel like Mara has been thrown a bit to the wayside in the past bit of this game, and I don't think I understand her reads nor do I know how to ask about them. What do you think on her right now?

[BipolarChemist]

@BPC: This:
Also, I mostly liked her RVS posts. So overall, weak town? There are a bunch of people I like more than her.

TBH, right now, I think Quilford is about as likely to be scum as Mara is. (I want this on the record, in the unlikely event I die and someone goes, "Ooh, Quilford wouldn't have posted on D1.") I think he'd be a really awful lynch for today, because his alignment will become really clear soon. But don't let him coast on, "Look, I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town!" Eventually, he'll scumhunt more organically.

At the time of reading this post, this is approximately where I'm at with Mara and Quilford (Quilford to a lesser extent on your reasons, I don't know his meta, just interactions on site chat). I'm assuming with his recent play, you're reading him as 'scumhunting organically'?

BPC I interact with a lot on Skype, but I've never seen him in a Mafia game before.

Maybe more a hypothetical question, but I'm curious. What would you expect my play to be like before this game started?

Tbh I agree that if I only had the second half of his iso he wouldn't be that suspicious. But I do think scum are often at their most nervous in the opening posts, and I wouldn't expect scum alchemist to keep posting pure filler after being called on that very thing.

I wouldn't expect town alchemist to do this either. I know I've had a couple games where I started out mostly bullshitting around because I wanted to have fun and kept real game talk light. Not saying it's a good idea, but I can understand it at least.

BPC is also null, as I've already said I didn't like his early fencesitting. I also hate hate hated when he said Mina was 'blatantly not caring about reads' in #114, it seemed like hilariously over-the-top rhetoric in the way that scum are sometimes prone to (Mina also took issue with it, which is another reason I forgot to mention why I like her for town). But aside from his 40 hr absence a little back, he has been pretty engaged.

I'll accept the comments on earlier fencesitting. I generally mostly pick up on stuff that isn't very logical, so statements about this thing meaning so and so could be scum, where I just don't think it could go either way. These things are what come out at me most and I can see how that would put me as fencesitting. But for the Mina thing, I gave an explanation for why I didn't think she was caring about her reads in 118. The way I had seen her post 79 was that she was saying "I'm skimming the game and haven't followed up on post numbers" yet she was pulling off a "she's fine right now" read on ETL, despite a number of people calling our some logical gaps in her posting. I felt like she had ignored/wrote of ETL at this point, especially with comments like "I'm sort of skimming right now". Hence, not caring about reads.

@Patrick: In your post 412, you mentioned reads on most players in the game and mentioned me a few times, but with no read. What's your read on me?

I guess misrep was a bit exaggerated, but I don't think I was being unclear about my intent toward mina, and I don't like that she attacked the way in which I presented my points rather than respond to the content.

I had a question in post 352. Plz rspnd thx

maybe town? {serra}

Reasons please!

[BipolarChemist]

Posting for post's sake. Busy busy will be here tonight!

[BipolarChemist]

I hate to do this but I'm skipping out tonight too Too much came up

[BipolarChemist]

Hammer without a claim is a policy lynch. No exceptions.

This is a very calm post coming after the fake hammer. I don't have meta, but it's not what I'd expect from you. More of a snide comment directed at focusing probably the next day on BB over any kind of freak-out/omg get out reads quickly before day end.

didn't he claim?

oops

well fingers crossed

after this? when I said I'd be back tomorrow? what do you think?

Mina town. quil maybe not town. Patrick not town but something someone said makes me think I'm gut reading. bb not town. bpc maybe town. I'm missing people.

fuckk. I've got my eye on bb at the moment.

This is about what I'd expect from ETL. Initial holy shit what the fuck I'm pissed throw out a few reads, you asshole. I find the tone of the bbmolla snipes to be much different than Mara's first post fake-hammer post.

Mara: Is there anything to your serra town read apart from his response to you initially? To me his behaviour on alchemist roughly sums up what you're voting me for, so can you flesh that out a bit when you get back

Not really no, but tomorrow I am probably gonna vote.park on molla the entire day

Mara, did you just blow through the preview screen from Alchemist's post or did you see and not care?

I do really want to vote molla for that attempted hammer though considering the nature of where that sig came from

Pedit: I think he's scum, or I wouldn't be voting him

A fake hammer and a real hammer are pretty different with context to his sig. This feels like a weird point to harp on since you know it was fake, so why attack him for this?

(If you can't tell, I really didn't like Mara's reaction to everything.)

[BipolarChemist]

CDBs immediate reaction was that this is molla town, and I think I agree.

I think I agree too. At least leaning town from my initial null. I'd highly doubt a molla/alchy scumteam especially from this given Alchy's response, breaking up the party so quickly.

My team and I aren't 100% sure on Alchy's quick response. Like my initial reaction as town in that spot would probably be either sad I fucked up or pissed. He was calm and collected and knew exactly what was going on.

p-edit: I assume the bottom tier is most town?

[BipolarChemist]

Noooo I'm still p skeptical on youuu

[BipolarChemist]

p-edit: I kind of think that I'm pretty transparent at this point, BPC, and to return the favour, I didn't like you trying to paint Mara's reaction as scummy when I thought it wasn't actually alignment-relevant. Let's both glare at each other suspiciously !

When you say things like "I'm pretty transparent" it doesn't help me feel better about you

I did think her reaction was questionable. My comments on her was a lot of sorting out what kinds of reactions she had because when I was initially reading them I felt a scummy vibe coming off. At this point, I feel like I'm letting slide the first couple of comments. Phone issue is something I've had a number of times and can understand, but my last point on her harping on Molla about his sig and his actions felt very weird to me and I still don't understand it.

[BipolarChemist]

"He's new" isn't really an argument for him being town

I think his play matches him being new, yes, but new scum.

I haven't personally gone back into his games but a couple of my teammates claim to have seen him have a good town game (mostly Ceph has claimed this) and believe despite his join date he may be fairly decent. Nothing was mentioned about his scum game.

[BipolarChemist]

Patrick is probably my biggest townread. I said in my team's PT that I might have a crush and then apologized to DV.

[BipolarChemist]

[BipolarChemist]

Where is BPC?

Running a challenge in Survivor

[BipolarChemist]

Sorry I ducked out there, had some pressing issues in another gameeee (Survivor game, not mafia, had to run a challenge that took like 3 hours).

I want to break my phone.

I am tracker, lynch pat NOW

Alright. Mara. First, this was just not an okay move. But you've been told that 20 times by now. By focusing on your primary lynch target, you're being kinda selfish. One thing I take into any game is knowing that my reads are not end all be all, I don't think any one's can be. Some more respected than others, but anyways, by claiming this you're assuming a town read on you will automatically get your reads trusted. What you should realize is that, that's not something that's just gonna happen. There needs to be good reason for a lynch target, no matter if your alignment is known or not. I am not convinced at all by your argument on Patrick right now.

Can you please take the time and run through with me what your exact case is here? I want to understand your logic.

[BipolarChemist]

I read your second line of that post like 5 times wondering why the heck you were saying I had bbmolla as a top suspect and why alchemist was even in that sentence. I'm going to bed .-.

[BipolarChemist]

BPC, why haven't you discussed the fact Alchemist21 is at L-1, or mentioned whether you would/would not hammer? IIRC, he was your top suspect along with me, and you don't seem to be pushing an alternative lynch very strongly.

Iunno I'm fine with an Alchemist lynch and have been for the just of the day. With everyone on him, I found it better to look elsewhere for now. I'd give intention to hammer, but I still have shit to respond to a few pages back.

[BipolarChemist]

I'm a lil busy atm but I'm pretty sure that was a hammer?

Last night, I told you why I was busy, Mina, and it's extremely verifiable by you.

I'm fine with the hammer, I can respond to things tomorrow, I don't think anything I had to say was super pertinent.

and back to workkkkkkk

[BipolarChemist]

I did want to catch up, but im probs busy until tonight or tomorrow and won't be able to get a proper catch up in, so it's okay. This is also about my rate of play in any game

[BipolarChemist]

sorry I should say that i am caught up like on reading, just not things i want to post on and i don't have half an hour right now to post on it D:

[BipolarChemist]

If I say tomorrow, will you be mad at me for saying tomorrow?

(because im going to bed D:)

[BipolarChemist]

Thx (luv ya)

[BipolarChemist]

I'm sorry, I've had some difficult personal stuff come up. I really wanna be in this still and I should hopefully be sorted nowish. I'm really sorry again I feel like a dick, mostly to my team.

If I haven't been able to get back up again in the next day or so I'll probably replace out, but I'd rather not.

[BipolarChemist]

Bah.

VOTE: serrapaladin

Clarify your read on serra at this point.

I'm gonna vote Serra too, can we just talk about shit for a bit though?

Who do you think partner would be if Serra is scum Mina?

You too.

Disappointed that was the one kill that didn't make Patrick confirmed town.

Where is this coming from? Did you actually expect Mara not to flip tracker there?

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

I feel like you skipped part of BB's issue here. There was time left in the day and players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts. Why not wait for that at all?

BPC uses a lot of exclamation points and Quil is cutesy, and I want to look into their metas to see if these two things are as pronounced in their town games because psychology blah blah blah

have you done anything on this?

BPC's unhappiness with Mina's townread on my slot seems weird to me, given that BPC wasn't particularly advocating for my scuminess. Simple disdain for others' townreads reads as scum to me.

Why does this read as scum to you?

(I've started skimming old BPC ISOs. Given my extremely limited sample size so far, if there's an alignment-relevant pattern beyond "his tone always sounds scummy to me!", I haven't seen it yet, although I haven't got to the part of his scum games where he's supposed to start lurking.)

How did this searching go? Also, I don't know how you don't notice my lurking in all games here

BPC is so hard to read guys

Thank you

My problem with BPC is lurking in a sense but it's more for the opportunistic time he lurked toward the end of the last day phase. Showing up and being all "yeah I'm down for a Alch lynch" and then taking no initiative beyond that looks like "I'm here but want no accountability" to me.

Yes, I've been lurking. There are a number of personal reasons for it but never-the-less, my feelings towards the lynch yesterday as it was happening was pretty much meh sure. I had a few bits where I pointed out things I took as scummy from alchemist and had been fine with the lynch for the just of the day. If I were in the game more at that point, I would have been fine hammering.

(leaving aside I don't think BPC and I make much sense as a scumteam, anyway).

Yes, this. I don't understand where patrick is coming from with that and that;s about the first time this game he's said something questionable. I'm chalking it up to half assed read coming back but I would like to hear more on this.

[BipolarChemist]

BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.

This was a while back, but could you elaborate on me hitting on your trains of thought? At the time this just seemed like a nice compliment that made me feel all warm and fuzzy, but it feels a bit awkward without pointing out which trains of thought.

The thing is, in this game, I don't read Alchemists posts and get a gut feeling that he's going to come back as town. I'm nowhere near certain he's scum, but I definitely don't buy that just talking alot makes him town, which you seem to be implying, Mara. I'd like you to back up that read with something more solid.

Maybe more of a curious thought, what do you see when you look at alchemist's post now?

@pat: 412, were you townreading me at this point?

[BipolarChemist]

Was totally gonna go through everyone, but uggggh other work to do and I was gonna do ETL's posts next, but also ugh again because I dun feeeel like it rn.

[BipolarChemist]

Also hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii again.

big question of the day. Who would YOU vote for right now if you could?

[BipolarChemist]

Your post is assuming Mina is town. Were you townreading Mina at that point and why?

I actually said I was fine with the alchemist lynch near the end of the day, just no inclination to rush the day end at that point (here).

[BipolarChemist]

Sorry I misread that! You mean discrediting townreads on you. Sorry I thought you meant Mina was town in your mind and was confused!

Anyways, at that point serra had really not done much of anything and Mina had a strong townread on serra. I commented saying I don't understand it, we discussed a bit, and even Mina agreed. I feel like, if you're town, you're assuming that discrediting a town read on a town player automatically makes someone scummy, where in this case I was having a null read and did not understand any townreads on the slot.

[BipolarChemist]

Well like he was at L-1, dude. I wasn't about to hammer and end day when I still wanted to so some catch-up.

[BipolarChemist]

2) BPC, what are your reads right now? They seem conspicuously absent from your catch-ups. Why are you asking me my read on serra in response to a post where I voted serra? (Or Molla's in a post where he said he'd vote serra, for that matter.)

3)

Where is this coming from? Did you actually expect Mara not to flip tracker there?

I said the one kill, not the one flip. Although a Mara NK doesn't make Patrick scum, the only person scum!Patrick would have ever killed is Mara. Any other kill would've meant the scumteam left confirmed town PR Mara alive to push Patrick's mislynch. (It was pointed out to me your reaction is a scumtell, by the way.)

4)

How did this searching go? Also, I don't know how you don't notice my lurking in all games here

Actually, I hadn't got far at all, and I only mentioned it in the first place in the hopes of magically drawing you out of the woodworks, in which case I'd vote you. ^_^ Haven't had time to do more. And now you've gone from "I lurk when I'm scum!" to "I always lurk"?

5)

Mina had a strong townread on serra

Not true. I listed my townreads and said "probably serra" in them.

2) Coming in a bigger way when I read through ISOs in a more detailed fashion. My current stances are lean scum on you, lean town on Johnny, town on ETL, not sure on Patrick, not sure on Quilford, lean town on molla.

And I'm asking you to clarify read on serra, like why do you think scum is there exactly, or at least at that point.

3) I'm probably still misunderstanding, but I don't think any scum team would have not killed mara in this instance? She was basically conf tracker and anybody leaving a PR in would probably be crazy.

Also, how is this a scumtell?

4) What do you mean drawing me out of the woodworks here and voting me? Would me posting right after that post have been a scumtell for you?

And yes, I pretty much always lurk, you'll see this from...every game I play in

5) I was thinking ETL's post calling serra town there I believe, but never-the-less we still had the quick discussion I mentioned there.

[BipolarChemist]

Sorry not ETL either...I swear I remember someone saying it and i was like wtf

[BipolarChemist]

It was Mara!

[BipolarChemist]

2) Coming in a bigger way when I read through ISOs in a more detailed fashion. My current stances are lean scum on you, lean town on Johnny, town on ETL, not sure on Patrick, not sure on Quilford, lean town on molla.

And I'm asking you to clarify read on serra, like why do you think scum is there exactly, or at least at that point.

So you think the scumteam is me/Patrick or me/Quilford? If you were reading the posts of your top suspect, then you'd know why I suspected serra, and you'll see it when you read my ISO, anyway.

I couldy se eother of those scumteams as a possiibility, but my reads were more based on individual reads rather than making pairings. As for my asking for you to clarify serra read, I was looking for any update maybe based on the lynch flip or update coming into the second day. The just of the scumreads on serra I found yesterday were a little bare or just that he was lurking a lot and I'm curious how your read had evolved, especially given the immediate vote at the start of the day.

3) I'm probably still misunderstanding, but I don't think any scum team would have not killed mara in this instance? She was basically conf tracker and anybody leaving a PR in would probably be crazy.

Also, how is this a scumtell?

Town go, "Omigod, I wonder who's going to die tonight and what it means!" Scum have less curiosity about the kill, and go, "Omigod, I hope the claimed tracker actually flips tracker!"

Mara claimed tracker. When were scum ever not gonna kill Mara? Like I don't understand how this wasn't everyone's assumption that she was gonna be killed last night. There was next to no question in my mind that Mara would be killed last night and hoping for any other kill is basically wishful thinking. This is no where close to a scumtell in this case. I could see it where a night kill target was maybe not so obvious, but come on, it was like the most obvious this.

4) What do you mean drawing me out of the woodworks here and voting me? Would me posting right after that post have been a scumtell for you?

And yes, I pretty much always lurk, you'll see this from...every game I play in

Yes, it would have been a massive scumtell. And I know much of your inactivity is shitty real-life stuff outside your control. But I still don't like that originally, you were defending yourself by saying you'd be lurking if you were scum, but now that you've lurked, you're saying it's a null tell for you.

This was not a defence by saying I lurk a lot this is an explanation of how I usually play/me feeling bad that this is how I usually play.

Also, from what I'm getting from this, were you thinking that I was scum reading the game and just not posting on purpose?

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

I feel like you skipped part of BB's issue here. There was time left in the day and players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts. Why not wait for that at all?

BPC, I'm assuming you're referring to yourself (and maybe serra) when you say 'players' in the quote above. I can't find anyone else who mentioned intending to make a catch-up post or something similar.

So I reckon you're being disingenous, because at the end of the day you said

I'm fine with the hammer, I can respond to things tomorrow, I don't think anything I had to say was super pertinent.

And to Mina, who thought she had hammered, you said

I did want to catch up, but im probs busy until tonight or tomorrow and won't be able to get a proper catch up in, so it's okay. This is also about my rate of play in any game

So it appears you were okay with the hammer despite not being caught-up and despite having wanted to make a catch up post. But now you're going after me for not having waited?

VOTE: BPC
asplain pls

I didn't like your response to BBmolla's stuff. I wanted to see more from you on the matter.

As for me not really giving a shit about the hammer yesterday, I didn't, that doesn't mean there might be something to pick up from other player's action around it.

This feels like a weird defence from you, Quilford. My first thoughts on your hammer and seeing the flip was you were excited town who just went for it because you didn't want to wait any longer, and now I'm trying to see if my initial thought was wrong.

[BipolarChemist]

Why bother to specifically point out that this is the first thing I've said that you find questionable? Is this what has turned me from being your top town read to being unsure on me?

I've been fairly hard townreading you the just of the game and I'm trying to be a bit more skeptical of it. I've been told that you're generally very chill and likeable with that attitude, so I don't want to associate that with alignment, which I feel like I may have been doing.

I did like your lines of reasoning in 926 though.

[BipolarChemist]

Sorry about play today. I've had some other shit going on and I'm reaching a point where I'll be replacing out. (Most of my stuff today has been lazy as shit reads/not caring too much)

I'm sorry