Newbie 1882 - Game Over

[Papa Zito]

RECK U SHIT

VOTE: xRECKONERx

[Papa Zito]

Hello friends welcome to another game of

Zito is Never Vig

Mafia Scum Dot Net. I'll be your guide through this wondrous adventure.

As an IC I have a kind of double role in this game. First I'm a player like everyone else, so I'll be playing to my win condition (town BTW) just like everyone else. I'll be up to the rest of you to decide if I'm evil manipulative lying scum or not. But my other role is as sort of a mentor, and here I am bound by Being a Good IC. Feel free to ask questions about game mechanics, how things work, what things mean, and so forth and rest assured that I won't lead you astray on these topics. In that vein I suggest everyone read Commonly Used Abbreviations to get up-to-date on the lingo. I also recommend everyone read the rules carefully in any game you play, as each mod tends to have his/her own ruleset.

Oh and an avatar. Please god everyone get an avatar.

[Papa Zito]

Do not worry, I will have an avatar soon. I'm trying to find a suitable one. Anyways, can UglyDuck, Papa Zito, and Chardev reply to my questions?

Hmm sure.

1. What is your experience at Mafia

Purely forum based. I've been here for 9 years.

2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum

Meta is bad. Don't do meta.

(^ that's an opinion not an IC thing)

I don't consciously play differently between the two. You're much better off asking someone with a lot of experience playing with/against me if I play differently cuz I sure as hell don't intend to.

4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

I think in general "tells" are really overrated and "slips" are incredibly rare. What I try to do is look at actions players have taken and see if those match up with the words they're pumping the thread with. By actions I mean concrete things like votes, claims, power use, etc.


VOTE: UglyDuck

[Papa Zito]

Was their one post suspicious?

Indeed.

Also, this came right after Reckoner said he voted for you due to a post where you voted for him, so that seems a little odd to me.

My vote for Reck was purely because he voted for me. He needed to understand my umbrage.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah seriously. We're handing the game to the scumteam if we don't get some participation going.

[Papa Zito]

I don't have any postrate statistics handy and honestly I don't care how "common" a slow start is. What I do know is that the town is going to have a really hard time coming to a consensus if people aren't participating.

There's no way to tell if the lack of posting is intentional. Some people have busy lives and can only post at certain times of day. Some people forget about games between the time they signed up and the time it starts. Some people are reactionary and only post when they feel like they need to address something. And yeah some people (of both alignments!) decide that laying low is the best course of action and purposefully avoid the thread as much as possible.

But I wouldn't characterize what we're seeing as lurking. That's an entirely different thing.

[Papa Zito]

Clearly because I choose not to.

[Papa Zito]

Man I bet you're fun at parties.

Since nobody else is posting, let's do a little thought experiment. Lando, how familiar are you with the game of poker?

[Papa Zito]

Don't worry, everything I do is relevant.

If I asked you how to play the game, what would you say?

[Papa Zito]

I love newbie games.

[Papa Zito]

So I guess you could say my vote was a randomlynch. Are you not supposed to random lynch?

I guess

Unvote:Papa Zito

?

What do you think a purely random lynch would accomplish?

[Papa Zito]

I'm pretty damn sure Chronic just used the wrong words to describe RVS (i.e. did not actually mean he wanted to randomly lynch someone). He said this is his first game, and it's far from the first time I've seen newbies have vocabulary problems.

Took all of two seconds to come to that conclusion, so why push a vote instead of discuss what happened, Chardev?

That's a hell of an assumption to make and I'm confused why you'd leap to that conclusion instead of drawing out an actual answer.

[Papa Zito]

I can already tell Lefty is gonna be a bro this game hurray.

[Papa Zito]

I love an IC who gives 110%

I ALWAYS USUALLY GIVE IT MY ALL

You clearly have some suspicion of Friend Lando here... why didn't you vote him?

---

I'm disappointed to see the Chronic wagon dissipate so quickly. Seeing a player react to pressure is a

good

thing. That's an opportunity to form a read that's now gone since the votes have moved elsewhere.

I'll go ahead and talk about what I was thinking since this ship has sailed: Personally I felt the unvote was more telling than the vote was. Townies bandwagon all the time, there's nothing inherently wrong with doing so. I'd have been fine with it if Chronic had stuck to his guns and left his vote where it was, at least then it'd be clear that he was doing something to help move the game along and apply pressure to a player slot that's been somewhat reticent in supplying information (both towny things to do). Instead we have a player who immediately unvotes and goes into hiding. On the surface this reeks of self-preservation, a much more scum-oriented trait than a town one, but you can never be sure so that's why I started questioning him in 69 (ayy).


In other news, UglyDuck needs more votes.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa - did Lando's unvote strike you the same way as Chronic's, and why (not)?

It didn't no and I'm not sure what would be similar between the two? Chronic's unvote was basically borne out of panic. Lando clearly explained his thinking. Also by then there had been other unvotes so the pressure was lost anyway.


Hey Reck what's your read on me atm?

[Papa Zito]

But as for Lando, I saw him as not wanting to stick out of the crowd both times – hopping on and hopping off. But that could well have been confirmation bias from my earlier scumread, which is getting weaker.

Well, flying under the radar certainly doesn't seem to be his style. He has the most posts in the game by far and I can't remember one of them being pure fluff. While a lot of his questions are probably not going to lead anywhere I will note that he followed up on the one I refused to answer twice, which indicates to me that he does actually care about getting answers and isn't doing it purely to look busy.

idk i think ur kinda scummy so far bc it feels like you're trying real hard to be Chill Daddi instead of like bein unafraid to fuck up some shit u kno

Uh no I don't know. Say more words.

[Papa Zito]

Yes good thank you.

Is this a tonal thing or what?

[Papa Zito]

talking about poker

?adonde?

Here. Since the game wasn't going anywhere I was going to have a teachable moment with Lando but he didn't play along.

[Papa Zito]

What were you trying to teach me, Papa Zito? I never found out.

Essentially that poker wouldn't be much of a game if everyone played with their cards face-up on the table.


Can you talk a bit more about Chardev? He hasn't really pinged me in any particular way.

[Papa Zito]

Let's talk about 120.

Continuing my questioning...
Lefty--what strikes Sunny's posts as scummy?
--
CT is asking a lot of questions. Not sure if this is because he is scum trying to avoid suspicion or just newbtown, so probably NAI, but just noting this in case it comes up.

What strikes you as "weird" about this post?

[Papa Zito]

I don't think giving a full readlist is beneficial at this time.

The reason why I thought Chardev's post about me was odd is that he said I was either scum or newbtown, which has negative implications.

How so? Doesn't that actually imply neutrality? Doesn't it mean he's giving equal weight to both possibilities?

Then the finger of suspicion placed toward me was also not committed to and he suggested he could wrong shortly afterward.

But what's suspicious about this behavior. Or put differently, why would this action be more likely from a scum player than a town one?

Finally, Chardev was also echoing Teacher's sentiments that I was dominating the thread instead of proposing a new idea.

Same question as above. Why would you consider this a scum move? What's the motive?

[Papa Zito]

Strange thing to say when I have a set of questions for you that you haven't answered.

I'm also typically not active on weekends.

[Papa Zito]

Did you actually read and parse it or are you impressed by the wordcount

[Papa Zito]

I did the exact same thing and came up with the complete opposite conclusion incredible.

[Papa Zito]

I skimmed the UglyDuck case and the Chardev stuff was what really caught my eye.

HOWEVER I wasn't quite so impressed, hence the followup questions.

[Papa Zito]

wut

[Papa Zito]

Oh I thought you were making a really clever joke that went over my head.

Why not shift your vote then? He's already got a wagon.

[Papa Zito]

You kids and your phones.

I really, really need to see Chronic vote someone.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah exactly. I'm trying to get one but I'm not getting anywhere.

[Papa Zito]

Zito-Why is posting a list of reads not beneficial?

The scum team has a decision to make during the night - they have to figure out which one of us they're going to remove from the game. The smartest play for them is to remove the player they're going to have the hardest time getting a mislynch on. If everyone posts full readlists, they can gather this info.

Zito-Are my points against Duck good or not? You mentioned my post was long, but not your opinions on it.

Like I said I to Reck I didn't go in depth on it, mainly because I agree with the target. I'll take a hard look at lunch today when I have some time.

@UglyDuck:

At this point, with intent to hammer given, you should fully claim your role so the town has maximum information to make a decision.

[Papa Zito]

Apologies in advance for the incoming quote wall.

In 25, you ask why I didn't want anyone to vote for the IC after I had already explained it.

I agree, and this was what pinged me initially. I didn't understand why a player would choose to dogpile on a point that had already been sufficiently explained.

Only to agree with me totally and support the IC in 82

Again I agree. This seemed contradictory given 25.

To me, the bigger issue with this post was that it was by far Duck's largest contribution to the game to that point but it did nothing to advance the game state. It's all theory talk, there's nothing of real substance and certainly nothing that helps him or us determine who the scumteam is.

You didn't include 83 in your list, which was another I had issue with - despite having not, to this point, said anything game-related at all, UglyDuck chooses to question someone's scumread on his slot over commenting on anything else.

In 113, you give an explanation for your change of mind, but many people had clarified what I had meant by the IC comment earlier, so I find it odd you did not realize by post 80.

UglyDuck later repeats in 172 that he made a "mistake" and was using 82 to clarify. If that were the case, why didn't he state that he'd made a mistake when he wrote 82? Why didn't he mention that he was trying to set the record straight when he wrote 82? It would've been simple to write "Sorry guys I misunderstood, here's what I really meant: blahblahblah"

This really seemed, to me, to be trying to justify a bad post in hindsight.

In114, you admit that you have done jack, but don't seem to try harder afterwards.

Irritating but not alignment indicative. As part of a pattern of throwing shade then maybe.

In 115, you ask for reads from two other people rather than yourself

It's certainly strange that he thought he can demand things of other players while not really participating but I think that's an experience thing and not an alignment thing.

What struck me here wasn't really the content but the timing. At this point he's been called out on not doing anything so suddenly he's asking for reads. The targets he's asking for reads from seem random and there's no follow-up of any kind.

You skip 117 where he's once again concerned about reads on his own slot instead of worrying about sorting others.

In 118, you suggest Chardev,Demon,or both are scum, which are reads with no reasoning involved as to how you got them.

I'm less concerned about not posting reasoning and more concerned about the way the question is raised. There's really no reason to pair those two particular players together. It seems more like he's reminding the town that there are other viable options than him.

In 141, you say it is acceptable for people to not post reads list in response to your question, which makes it seem as if you do not care much about hunting for scum and gathering information.

So theoretically he's correct, he doesn't have to post reads to ask for them. In practice you can't really expect other players to give information to you when you don't give any in return. He has 0 standing in the game at this point having done nothing to advance the game so again it's strange to think he can make demands of other players, but that's not necessarily alignment indicative. What was more interesting to me was the last sentence, that he was "having trouble figuring out where you were at reading your isos" - were those really the only two he had difficulty sorting? I have a hard time believing that. This seems more like a player Trying To Be Town instead of just being Town.

In 151, you do not argue that you are not scum or ask for more information about why you are scumread, but merely ask Lefty who they also scumread. I know this point may not be too strong, but the question still seems weird coming from a town member.

I have no issues with this particular post.

[Papa Zito]

Hmm.

UglyDuck in 141 you say you're having trouble sorting teacher. What changed between then and 222?

[Papa Zito]

@Zito: Why would "fully" claiming a role (particularly a protective role) be better than a partial PR claim? (To be clear, I expect you to answer as an IC.)

I've already answered this question. As an example, see Lando's 228. Without the fullclaim, Lando does not make this post.

You guys were too hasty in unvoting again. :/

VOTE: Chronic for now.


Reminder: "As an IC" only applies to game mechanics

[Papa Zito]

The smartest play for them is to remove the player they're going to have the hardest time getting a mislynch o

presumably, with a semi-protective role claimed, this objection has been overtaken by events? Or are you still opposed?

I am still opposed, nothing has really changed there.

I'm concerned by your line of thinking because you seem to be operating with more information than I have. You're making assumptions about scum team power that you shouldn't be.

Same question I asked to Papa: How is a fullclaim ("JK") better than a partial claim ("PR") AT THIS POINT rather than start of D2?

Like Reck said, this is basic best practice.

What you seem to be missing is that we had to make a decision

at the time of the claim

. UglyDuck was sitting at L-1 with intent to hammer given. There isn't a tomorrow to evaluate, we have to evaluate then and there. The majority of town has already declared this player as most suspicious. You don't let the most suspicious player in the game live another night.

When a player claims, you need a full claim then and there, full stop. The town needs maximum information to decide whether or not to lynch that player. Just look at the posts following his claim:

I just looked at the setups and noticed that jailkeeper is a terrible fakeclaim. Only setup c3 does not feature a cop, jailkeeper, or neapolitan, so Duck should be believed. I'll unvote while trying to figure out which wagon to join or start next.
UNVOTE: UglyDuck

Lando does not make this post if the only information he gets is "PR".

His unvote is due to receiving the information provided by the fullclaim

I think that jailkeeper would be a horrible fakeclaim as others have pointed out.

...

UNVOTE:

Again,

Skygazer can't make this post without having full claim knowledge

.

In addition, by just claiming "PR" a fakeclaiming scum player gets to live by being vague. You yourself have made multiple calls for people to counter and you yourself explained why it's beneficial to do so:

But for the rest of the board I will comment that it is always worth it to trade a PR for a scum in a 7-2 setup. Cop, Neapolitan, or JK are counterclaims to UD's claim. IT would be worthwhile to have a counter.

We don't have this opportunity without the full claim.

It's boggling that you're seeing the benefits of the full claim play out right here in the thread and then complaining that it happened.

[Papa Zito]

You're making assumptions about scum team power that you shouldn't be.

Where, and what assumption?

Why is scum roleblocker not a possibility?

[Papa Zito]

You're making assumptions about scum team power that you shouldn't be.

Where, and what assumption?

Why is scum roleblocker not a possibility?

It is a possibility -- 33% in our current world. But Im not seeing how that affects any of the discussion? (Sorry, Im a bit sleep deprived so if it seems like it should be obvious, Im just totally missing it right now).

Roleblocker trumps JK. If the roleblocker exists, the JK is getting permablocked. You don't seem to be accounting for this possibility in your posting.

[Papa Zito]

Im not sure how it should affect my posts/views. JK being left alive and permablocked is not a terrible outcome, because that means Dr is unblocked and able to save very likely town. What am I missing?

Your instructions were for the JK to target scum players, not to a potential doc.


We were too quick for the same reason as last time. Pressure on a player is a good thing. I had questions I wanted to ask. I started this in 223 but then pressure was lost. I don't think UglyDuck posts 235 if his wagon is still intact, I think we get answers there.

Bear in mind that his role claim doesn't erase everything discussed in 220. Those points all still stand. He's no longer the leading wagon because he's potentially a town power role, but he's not cleared by any means and we'd be unwise to treat him as such.

[Papa Zito]

In the absence of a counterclaim, youd agree he is 90% likely to be town, right? So Rand+15?

I dunno what Rand+15 means.

A. We have 3 slots (Sunny, Chardev, ceejay) that have not had a chance to counter.
B. "Confirmed Town" is 100% so I'm not even sure what the purpose of this was.

You agree that good PR play is to appear somewhat scummy so as not to attract the NK right?

I do not.


@Lando: I'm doing a full reread at lunch, I'll look into Chardev then.

[Papa Zito]

oh god math help

[Papa Zito]

I'll echo teacher's questions and add on: how did read my iso and decide I'm null of all things?

[Papa Zito]

Chardev, in 216 you list 2 points as town, 3 points as scum, and 7 as NAI (Not Alignment Indicative). Why did this add up as scum to you?

[Papa Zito]

I townread Sunny because I think they are being sincere with being town and that they are doing their best as town would do under the circumstances.

Is that one post the sole backing for this logic?

[Papa Zito]

Well it struck me as strange that you were able to form a solid read on someone with 10 posts and little content vs someone with 42 posts and (imo) a lot of content. Given your slot hasn't given us much to work with I thought that was worth following up on.

Also, speaking generally: Asking for reads on myself is something I do in games from time to time. My role PM is often the only concrete info I have so I leverage that to form reads on other players. If I can follow their thought process and they can back up what they're saying then I'll feel better about them.

[Papa Zito]

Well.... yes.

Wait are you saying I'm a neutral read because you haven't read my posts yet?

[Papa Zito]

Okay. Can you give a couple examples?

[Papa Zito]

I am not counterclaiming UglyDuck's slot.

Thanks for this.

I have a question for you in 310.



Skygazer talk to me about ceejay. What do you think of his entrance to the game?

[Papa Zito]

What do you think of his move off the Chardev wagon this close to deadline?

[Papa Zito]

Welcome to the game!

Most important thing given when SUnny disappeared is confirming whether you counterclaim JK (as cop, Neapolitan, or JK)

Please do this in your next post.

[Papa Zito]

Was despacito named after you?

Indeed.

Your predecessor didn't give us much so I'd appreciate if you could put some time into the game. We only have a couple days to deadlne.

[Papa Zito]

What do you make of Chardev's case and the arguments in it?

:/ That's a lot to go point-by-point on, I'll have it for you when I'm not at work.

[Papa Zito]

Chardev's case deconstructed. More quote striping yay. I've discussed Duck's posts already in 220 so I'm just looking at Chardev's interpretations.

80 - Apologizes for not posting earlier, votes me for defending other people. I get why this would be scummy, but that's probably not worth a lynch on its own. Scummy.

I'm not sure who invented this rule but I don't agree with it. Bad logic is bad logic and calling it out isn't scummy.

82 - Nice good long post about probability and the IC...in where he also flip-flops opinion, so NAI. (And as a side note, please, PLEASE do not keep a scum IC alive just because he's the IC.)

I don't see where he flipflops his opinion, but if that's his take then what makes it NAI?

112 - Tells Lefty that gut is not a good scumhunting tool. While it's not good on its *own*, this is D1 and you'll have to use it a bit. Also doesn't understand what question Lefty was talking about when it was clearly his first post. Scummy.

The gut thing is purely theory. I don't know why he felt the need to argue this but it doesn't say much about his alignment.

I guess Chardev is assuming UG's question here to Lefty was feigned? But if so for what purpose? How does pretending to not know what Lefty was talking about advance a scum agenda?

116 - Naming the Charisma list. No substantial content.

This one's strange because it really looks like UG is throwing shade in this post. I guess technically that's "not substantial" but why is it NAI?

118 - Asks people if they think there's scum between me and demon. This seems an awful lot like a way to suspect someone without providing a reason! Scummy.

I'm ok with this one. Newbies always demand reasons for everything and not giving reasons always strikes them as the epitome of evil.

141 - Refines the read request. This seems ok. Towny.

I don't understand why 141 is Town and 115 isn't. 141 is in response to someone questioning 115.

151 - Questions Lefty. Again, Towny.

Scumhunting is Town, sure.

172 - Responds to CT...in a rather unsettling matter. NAI.

What was "unsettling" about this post? He's just responding to CT here.

[Papa Zito]

I need more content from Swims and I'm unhappy that CT has disappeared.

@Papa - any interest in giving Lando a hammer by joining the Sky wagon?

I'm still hoping for a ceejay wagon to happen, but yeah I'll move before deadline.

[Papa Zito]

Just checking in prior to deadline and I see we're in twilight. Good stuff

Ceejay if you are town and have any final thoughts now would be the time to share.


As a note to everyone, dying doesn't lose you the game. You can still win along with your faction.

[Papa Zito]

Going to reread things. UD definitely needs to claim a target.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa - now that I have explained my advice to UD, can you tell me more about why you thought it made assumptions about the scum team?

What's this referring to?

[Papa Zito]

@Papa - now that I have explained my advice to UD, can you tell me more about why you thought it made assumptions about the scum team?

What's this referring to?

Your 275, which felt like a backhanded push at me. I explained why it was wrong in 288, and I dont believe you ever reacted to that. Do you think Im right (and no assumptions were made), or do you still think I was making assumptions?

We had a whole conversation on this topic and I'm not sure why you want to bring it up again. The game state hasn't really changed since that time.

What prompted the exchange:

Zito-Why is posting a list of reads not beneficial?

The scum team has a decision to make during the night - they have to figure out which one of us they're going to remove from the game. The smartest play for them is to remove the player they're going to have the hardest time getting a mislynch on. If everyone posts full readlists, they can gather this info.

You argued against this because we had a Jailkeeper claim. For this to be relevant, you must be assuming the scumteam doesn't have a roleblocker. If the scumteam does have a roleblocker, then the Jailkeeper is rendered moot and can't protect anyone.

I also don't support any further claims at this time. Other than UD's target ofc.


@Lando: I said no such thing. I said it's unwise for everyone to post full reads. See above.

[Papa Zito]

Guys, PR hunting is still a thing. I just finished a Newbie where a player that was generally scumread was killed off N1 because the scum team thought he had a power.

Are you saying you breadcrumbed a power role somewhere?

[Papa Zito]

Guys, PR hunting is still a thing.

No, I'm saying that the scum team can make weird kill choices sometimes.

These are not the same thing.

[Papa Zito]

Making kill choices that can be considered weird can be due to scum PR hunting

That's a really weird logical leap to make.


I don't trust Reck at all.

[Papa Zito]

I really don't want to get into a rant on meta here so I'll just say that a completely different scumteam playing against different players in a (probably?) different setup and different circumstances are not going to make similar decisions.

One of the

least likely

explanations for our lack of NK was that the JK blocked a kill on you. The

most likely

explanation is the JK blocked your own kill attempt.


BTW if there's a track result on UD that contradicts his claim, now's the time to speak up.

[Papa Zito]

I need more Lando in my life.

[Papa Zito]

In which case, no, I would much prefer to act on the hard data we have than sit around and talk about our feelings and potentially give scum too much information to make an informed shot tonight

If Skygazer flips town, what's your plan for tomorrow?

[Papa Zito]

To be honest, you're saying you want to generate content far more than actually doing it.

[Papa Zito]

To be honest no one is engaging me really

Ok. Ask me a question.

[Papa Zito]

If I flip town how likely is UD-scum to you?

I don't think UD's alignment really depends on yours. There is a perfectly viable scenario (doc protect) in which you're both town. With no counterclaims I don't really have any reason to assume UD is something other than what he claimed.

[Papa Zito]

I want to at least get some words from Chardev first.

[Papa Zito]

Someone mentioned the tracker game.
I think this would be a good idea prior to lynching my result (Sky).

vote: yes tracker game

? What do you mean by the tracker game exactly?

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, what are your scumreads? Also, do you believe UglyDuck is telling the truth? If not, then please list your reasons.

I'm starting to think you're not actually reading the game.

[Papa Zito]

Zito, I phrased the question badly. I meant to ask you whether you still think there is a possibility that UglyDuck is lying and we are in a tracker/doctor setup as Sky said. In 287, you said many points still stand against UglyDuck. Therefore, I am curious whether you still have doubts. I want more discussion about UglyDuck because this lynch is revolving around his comments. Its not unthinkable that he is lying, given that if there are two mafia goons, claiming jailkeeper has a one third chance of being cc'd instead of a one ninth chance. I don't want to treat someone as confirmed when they may have just gotten lucky when fakeclaiming.

I don't think UD's alignment really depends on yours. There is a perfectly viable scenario (doc protect) in which you're both town.

With no counterclaims I don't really have any reason to assume UD is something other than what he claimed.

The game has changed since I made the post you linked. Night one results support his claim. Nobody has come forward with contradicting information. While we should remember there is a small possibility he's fakeclaiming scum it's far far more likely he's telling the truth.

[Papa Zito]

Welcome to the game Eragon.


@Lando It's because we've settled on a lynch for today and we're really just interested in the flip.

To that end, VOTE: Skygazer

Regarding a question you asked earlier that I forgot to answer - Beyond Skygazer, Reck is my top scumread at this time. His lack of engagement is extremely concerning and he's deflected me twice now when I've tried talking to him. I also have 2 strong townreads and then mixed feelings about everyone else. I'm not terribly comfortable with the gamestate right now (and yes I acknowledge that's partially my fault) so I'm hoping Skygazer flips red to give me something solid to work with.

[Papa Zito]

Hello all, catching up.

[Papa Zito]

A doctor claim and clear in mylo. How incredibly convenient.

I don't believe the claim but I don't have time to delve too deep. I'll review his iso at lunch.

[Papa Zito]

Something I like to do when I see a roleclaim is go back to the beginning and see if the player's posts make sense in that context.

Duck claimed JK in 222. Here is Lando's immediate response:

Teacher, is Jailkeeper a good claim for scum to make? Do you think it's more likely Duck is telling the truth or lying?

I wouldn't expect someone with a Doctor role PM to make this post. JK/Doc is a perfectly viable setup. With the setup knowledge he has via his role PM I would expect Lando to shade more to believing the claim than not. He seems to realize this himself when he posts immediately after:

I just looked at the setups and noticed that jailkeeper is a terrible fakeclaim. Only setup c3 does not feature a cop, jailkeeper, or neapolitan, so Duck should be believed. I'll unvote while trying to figure out which wagon to join or start next.
UNVOTE: UglyDuck

In 232 Lando doubles down. One of the reasons he thinks I may be scum is voting our claimed Jailkeeper:

In32, Zito votes for UglyDuck(who I believe is really jailkeeper)

However in 530 suddenly there's room for doubt?

I want more discussion about UglyDuck because this lynch is revolving around his comments. Its not unthinkable that he is lying, given that if there are two mafia goons, claiming jailkeeper has a one third chance of being cc'd instead of a one ninth chance. I don't want to treat someone as confirmed when they may have just gotten lucky when fakeclaiming.

This flip in opinions makes no sense. Nothing in the game has happened to cause him to suddenly flipflop on this belief that Duck is a JK.

Then in his next post:

Reckoner, why do you assume a Tracker is even in the game? It feels like you're trying to get pr's to claim. I'm going to review your iso to see if you've done anything else that could be suspicious. Between being the first to vote Skygazer and this post, you're starting to become scummy in my opinion.

This doesn't jive at all with 530. If Lando is considering the setup is goon/goon, with his Doctor PM that would mean the town power has to be Doc/Tracker. Why then is he throwing shade at Reck here if Reck is talking about a Tracker possibility? That makes 0 sense with what he should know at the time.


I have one other thing I need to bring up that I noticed going through the iso but I'm out of time so it'll have to wait until tonight.

[Papa Zito]

I would have had to intentionally let the jailkeeper live two nights

I just finished a game where there was a town dayvig. He lived to endgame because he didn't suspect our scumteam. In other words, if the JK isn't a threat to your team, there's no imperative to kill him.

I would have had to not have killed night 1(because why would sky be targeted?)

Why was Reck targeted? Who hard townread him?

I would have had to risk Duck jailing me or my hypothetical scumbuddy, which would have probably gotten us lynched

This is basically a restatement of your first point.

I would have had to come up with the idea of not killing night one without teacher mentioning it(Teacher first mentioned the possibility in 453, which was on day 2)

I'm not sure what Teacher has to do with anything unless you just slipped your buddy.

With all this said, why are you so adamant in believing I am not the doctor while giving HWS and Eragon a free pass?

For one, it implicates me and I know my role PM.

It's also far too convenient. In mylo the correct play is to no lynch to reduce the possibilities of a mislynch further. Instead we're in this situation with a dubious claim.

[Papa Zito]

Hey guys. Very very sorry for getting replaced out. I was victimized by the new prodding rules.


Anything you wanted to go over?