[Game Over] Newbie 1900 - Robocalypse

[Auro]

I had always been bothered by the rumours that a few early M.A.F.I.A prototypes had been released into the populace. Word was that it was *very* hard to distinguish them from a normal human -- an ever so slight thirst to annihilate the rest and conquer. Maybe the manufacturers changed that for the robots they released? No one knows.

One thing always bothered me, though. What if I was one of them? What if I wasn't born a simple, free, human; but a bloodthirsty robot who lacked any true identity? This single thought had always taken a backseat in my mind. It increasingly began to have a greater effect on my daily life, leading to an eventual obsession. I could not invest my energies in anything else, and lost everything I had.

When I was offered a chance to 'volunteer' for the experiment, I was told that I would know my identity -- whether I was human, or a bot --- before the experiment started. Apparently RandomAccess, one of the volunteers, had failed to read his instruction card (a malfunctioning robot or an unwilling human, there was no point keeping him) and I replaced him instead.

Miss Star repeated the instructions for me, and guided me to the glass room. I saw that most others had taken their cards from the tesseract table, and proceeded to take my own and read it.

I breathed a sigh of relief. I finally knew what I was. Or to be more precise, who I am.
And then it hit me that if I did not find out which ones were the M.A.F.I.A, I'd... probably die anyway.

I had a good, hard look around the room. I recognized a few of the volunteers - Lamees, Volxen, and Not_Mafia, from before. Volxen's avatar looked like what they called a "Transformer" to me. A sentient robot. It seemed obvious what my starting point should be.

VOTE: Volxen

[Auro]

Lionheart was probably the bravest of the volunteers. I noticed that he seemed new to the world, though. I wondered if he'd heard of/participated in these experiments before. So I had to ask:

Lion, what's your experience with Mafia games?

[Auro]

Now, you might be wondering as a reader - When did I write all of this?
Truth is, I'm writing this long after the experiment was conducted. I'm not allowed to talk about what happens after my part in the experiment. Obviously I already know how the experiment ended, but there's no fun in spoiling it for you, is it?

Anyway, back to the experiment. The transformer had voted me minutes after I noticed the oddness about him, on a tonal judgment; I later learned this might have been a possible "OMGUS" of sorts. This behaviour usually came more from robots than humans, or so I heard. Maybe my gut feeling was right. Maybe. However, I wanted to question him on it further, and said:

Volxen, what makes the flavor tone more likely to come from robot!Auro?
Is it a pure, isolated tonal judgment you're making, or are you comparing it with my previous scumgame?
Motivation-wise, do you see anything that makes it more likely scummy?

[Auro]

Unfortunately though, Captcha-solving was pretty easy for these prototypes. The technological marvels that they were, they far surpassed current Computer Vision Neural Network algorithms, and possessed an ability to derive abstractions from learned knowledge and transfer them elsewhere. A kind of... common sense, you could say. Just like us humans.

However, I surmised that the best chance I had of passing this experiment was to begin to work with the other volunteers. I waved over to Lamees, and said:

Lamees, hop on board the Volxwagon!

[Auro]

Because Lamees was online? Anyone can sheep me and join the wagon, wagons are good. You join, too.

[Auro]

FL what are you doing? Looks scummy to me.

What do you think Flavor Leaf is doing, and how is that scummy?
I see that he's simply sheeping my vote and wagoning, isn't that pro-town, Lamees?

[Auro]

Omgus isn't really alignment indicative.

What does that have to do with Flavor Leaf?
Wait, what do you mean by "FL"?

[Auro]

Wagon for wagon's sake, to test reactions, to push the game forward. It's RVS!

[Auro]

Also, Flavor Leaf's sheeping was *before* I brought up OMGUSing.

[Auro]

I know. "FL what are you doing? Looks scummy to me" I thought she meant your sheeping was scummy, then she said OMGUS, and the OMGUS was *after* your sheep so couldn't be connected to you, so I thought FL might have meant something else.

[Auro]

If M.A.F.I.A bots were truly AGI in the sense that they could beat us in advanced Turing tests, possessing abstracted knowledge systems and 'common sense' like humans, this would likely spell doom for humans. Firstly, it's difficult enforcing rules on bot¹ - they can always interpret a rule in a fashion which WE humans find undesirable. Second, the lack of biology means they can self-improve rapidly² . We'd have an unbound rate of growth in intelligence, and these super-intelligent bots can do *whatever* they want to. Eeks. Scary.

Made me want to nail them bots even more in the experiment. The human team *had* to win. Although...

Interactions were sparse. I could see quite a few people napping. What even? If we were going to take this experiment seriously, we'd have to talk to each other. I wouldn't want a bot to wake up at the end with everyone else dead. Occasionally someone would mutter something, but I felt we were getting no where closer towards solving the experiment.

[1]: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer

[2]: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Intelligence_explosion

Mod edit:

fixed colour hue

[Auro]

Robot lingo?
"Thank You, Charming Read"
"Terrific, Yep, Can Respect"
"Tofu Yuuuuck, Canned Raisins"

(Yeah, I'm on Maf dark -- which color should I use? Orange? Red? I want to differentiate between roleplay and actual content)

[Auro]

• YurikoJasmine (L-2)

  : YurikoJasmine, Not_Mafia, lionheart1492
  

  Auro (L-3)

  : Lamees, volxen
  

  volxen (L-3)

  : Auro, Flavor Leaf
  

  Lamees (L-4)

  : Ariane
  

  snowbeast

Ah, sorry about that.
I'll stop if anyone thinks it's disturbing gameplay -- they can ping the mod I guess.

[Auro]

The Transformer's behaviour towards me, given our last game together, seemed very natural. This also seemed like the only decent attempt at engagement in the experiment so far, so that was good.

I have a completed town game (Mini 2040), although the circumstances there were pretty different. You could give it a read. There's a lot of content from my profile that you could use to judge the AI-ness (Heheh) of my tone in general *by yourself*. What do you make of my reaction, though?

My vote was an RVS vote, I could've simply replaced the roleplay with "Hey, a robot avatar! VOTE". The voting and subsequent hopeful flashwagoning was to generate content and test for reactions, yes. Not a result of a scumread. I do find Lamees' reaction to the OMGUS part interesting.

IMO RVS sheeping at least isn't AI at all, I think it's a good thing actually. At least in terms of a starting point for serious play. Thor's sheeping was contextually different, he was clear that he townread you after your defence and moved his vote.
What do you think? How do you think scum!sheeping would play out over the course of a day? You don't have to answer the second part, just keep that in mind.

[Auro]

Aww, thanks! :')

Could you please upload an avatar? Lionheart too.

[Auro]

Can you give more details about what you found interesting?

So far, WRT your play:
- Calling me scummy for *mentioning* OMGUS
- Stressing on the NAI-ness of OMGUS, and questioning FL's sheep (which was before my post)
- Ignoring my reasons for wagoning
- "Time for me to get out of RVS" without actually placing a vote with a serious basis
- False unvote?

Answer me this, Lamees:
1. You still think RVS wagoning isn't good?
2. Do you scumread me?
3. If you're getting out of RVS, what are your serious reads?
4. Opinions on FL's sheeping?

[Auro]

1. I just came from a game where there was RVS lynch (yes lynch not wagon lol). The lynch It actually happened to be scum. So I think it can be good but there's definitely a higher chance for the lynch to be scum if the wagon isn't RVS.

I think that game's ongoing, best not to talk about it.

I interpreted your post as "FL what are you doing? Auro looks scummy, why are you sheeping him" given your post 36, where you answered "OMGUS is NAI" when I asked how FL's play was scummy.

Not sure why Yuriko would keep a vote on herself at L-2 and not bother about the wagon. The lack of self-consciousness and her non-removal of the self-vote seems towny, I agree.

[Auro]

mudslinging about how auro is really good at being mafia and we need to be afraid of him

I get what you mean, although I take this more as a compliment than mudslinging

[Auro]

Also, just a pre-emptive

WARNING: DO *

NOT

* PUT ANYONE AT L-1.

Not_Mafia has a history of quickhammers as either alignment.
Not sure if he'd do that in Newbie games, but nonetheless, L-2 is the new L-1.

[Auro]

I get what you mean,

[Auro]

Since there are first-timers here too -

L-x: A person's at L-x if they get lynched (majority vote) after 'x' more people vote for them.
L-1: A person's at L-1 if one more vote gets them lynched.
Hammering: Placing the final vote on someone.

Usually, before hammering, you state an "intent" to hammer. Primarily so that they can claim a PR if they are one. A "Quickhammer" is when someone places the final vote without stating intent, thus risking the loss of a PR - which is anti-town.

Not_Mafia is known for quickhammers, so if you're placing the pre-final vote on someone, he could hammer them immediately. Since it's part of his playstyle, he can't be sorted on the basis of it either.

Therefore, considering the possibility of that, placing someone at L-1 is equivalent to lynching them. So you should state intent before voting if they're at L-2.

Post 65 is a lie.

[Auro]

Why not engage with Lion in that case? At the moment I'm interested in seeing how that interaction goes.

[Auro]

VOTE: not_mafia

Since you're out of RVS, why? Policy vote?

[Auro]

Read his ISOs from other games. Tell me the difference.
Else that's a policy lynch you're advocating.

[Auro]

Read his ISOs from other games. Tell me the difference.
Else that's a policy lynch you're advocating.

Lamees, I'd like you to clarify on this.

[Auro]

fwiw mudslinging isn't the best word for my opinion on volx but it's the one I used bc it's close enough and I explained it more in depth in the original post. Fearmongering is a better word if you're struggling to understand my argument.

this came across incredibly townie to me. This was a realization of looking at a past thing, realizing he could have explained better, and hoping to clarify.

town read.

This was a response to me saying "Compliment more than mudslinging" and not a standalone comment.

What makes engaged clarification incredibly townie?

[Auro]

By "making mafia kills easier" I'm referring to their decision, targetting the hardest people to lynch is an easy call for mafia. I'm not really here to argue the validity of posting early townreads so I won't go further into that.

On the flip side, not forming consensus townreads makes more people east to get mislynched, benefitting scum.

It's a fine trade-off.

[Auro]

• volxen (L-2)

  : Auro, Flavor Leaf, lionheart1492
  

  YurikoJasmine (L-3)

  : YurikoJasmine, Not_Mafia
  

  Auro (L-4)

  : volxen
  

  Not_Mafia (L-4)

  : Lamees
  

  snowbeast, Ariane

He realized that he worded it in a way that could have been worded better and actively tried clearing it up for people.

Right. I agree that the tone of his response is pretty towny, if not that he responded that way in itself.

[Auro]

I'm not psychic - yet. Will hold my vote for a day until I understand this game a bit more

by this do you mean you're not gonna vote for the whole day...? How do you expect the day to go then?

Prolly means a normal day and not a game-day.

[Auro]

The Transformer's behavior struck me very odd. The brave Lionheart had stepped up and voiced suspicion on Volxen, and Volxen chose to rather look at me and ask what *I* thought of it. I told him I'd much rather let him engage directly, but to my surprise, he... Began to nap again!

Volxen, I notice you're active elsewhere on site, and you seem to be ignoring Lionheart's case -- your last post simply dismissing it and diving into wagon analysis spec. I get the feeling you're waiting for something more significant to happen.

Scumlean.

[Auro]

I asked you about this because I would like to know your thoughts on Lion's case, and the back-and-forth that has now started between us. I still would like you respond to this, as it will help me to read your slot.

I don't think I'd want to hijack an exchange that barely started just to help you form a read on me, at this point. My own thoughts on his case wouldn't be different depending on my own alignment, though, so I'm not quite sure how you were intending to read off that.

I'll give my views at a later point.

[Auro]

Usually I'd only do this when I feel a case is very weak/flawed. If there are elements I agree with, I think it's better to let the exchange happen first.

[Auro]

Why? Reading previous games isn't my style. I play the current game. Only time I use past games is if I was in the game personally.

Meta means nothing to you?

Okay, take it from me - Not_Mafia does this every game. Your scumread on him for his ISO on this game alone is *wrong*.

Apart from a weak early jab at Flavor, you're just comfortably settling into a tunnel based on an incorrect meta-ignorant read, no?

[Auro]

Volxen,

I'd evaluate both sides eventually anyway. You asked me at a point where he made a case on you, and you hadn't even responded to him yet.

That logic would apply to any exchange in the game, not just yours. I personally think that sometimes, taking a step back and observing how a slot defends itself -- rather than jumping into the attack and providing an early judgment of the merits and demerits of the case -- is more beneficial for forming my reads, and for town as well. Do you agree?

Sure. Unless I have a set agenda in mind, optimal scumplay for me would be to offer my thoughts as though it's from town!me. In our last game, I do remember saying I disagreed with Trendall's anti-stat philosophies, while also voting for you.

Of course that's for town to judge, IMO there'd be a lot more content off me to make reads than my own early thoughts on someone's case to read me upon.

I was "siding" with him in a sense and pushing you anyway independent of the case, if you noticed

[Auro]

Yuriko should be at L-1, no excuses

Totally, except I cannot vote myself twice.

Uh huh. You said you'd have something more substantial to say soon, and you *are* checking in and reading. You still have a self-vote. What's up?

[Auro]

Sure -- Any comment on the other happenings of the day? Any preliminary reads? Leans?

[Auro]

• volxen (L-3)

  : Auro, lionheart1492
  

  YurikoJasmine (L-3)

  : YurikoJasmine, Not_Mafia
  

  Auro (L-4)

  : volxen
  

  Not_Mafia (L-4)

  : Lamees
  

  snowbeast, Ariane, Flavor Leaf

Okay, how about Lionheart?

[Auro]

The people around finally began to talk. I found myself generally agreeing with one player, Ariane, and I felt she could be a human -- after all, we had similar mindsets. Seems like there was a lot of vote-slinging going on, and for reasons I wasn't so happy with. Maybe I could be friends with Ariane.

I disagree with Yuriko, I like Ariane's reasoning. Yuriko, you should elaborate on what makes you feel it's unnatural.

I'm townreading Lion at the moment, and leaning Ariane. Ariane's post on Volxen captured my own thoughts on it. Volxen seems like he was more interested in collecting thoughts on him than providing his own and engaging with people. There's a previous scumgame of his I'll look up, to see if meta agrees.

I'm not happy with Lamees' vote on Not_Mafia while not accepting it's effectively a policy lynch.

I would've been happier if Flavor Leaf engaged with Lamees/Not_Mafia instead of splitting them. Flavor, between Lamees and Not_Maf, why choose the latter? He isn't going to make a great defense or anything, Lamees would engage more. It makes more sense to push her instead, no?

[Auro]

Lamees, give me good reason to vote Not_Mafia and I will.

[Auro]

No, I'm going to expect him to be checked by an investigative and cleared/guiltied in future days.

What's your approach towards someone who lurked all game till now? Would you lynch them, or would you hunt for someone who's posting and looks scummy?

[Auro]

I'm telling you he won't. His posts at this point *always* look scummy isolated, but they're NAI. Equivalent to a non-poster.

I assure you he won't try to convince you otherwise. In a hypothetical world where he would, my first sentence is what he'd say.

I know you don't *see* clear scum posts from anyone yet, but that's the point of engagement, isn't it? Why are you so disinterested in engaging with others?

[Auro]

Lamees, your engagement thus far has mostly just been to answer my questions. That's why I said you seem to be comfortably settling in to a Not_Mafia tunnel. Gives vibes of scum pushing an easy ML.

Can you show me any genuine instances of engagement apart from answering my questions, and asking FL why he's sheeping me?

Also, I'm going to sheep Ariane.
VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Auro]

Where am I giving him a free pass? I'm treating him like a hard-lurker. As I said, investigatives should target him, and I would heavily dislike him making it to LyLo without a result on him.

I'm not defending him so much as pointing out that his behaviour is NAI. If you think what I'm doing is anti-town, why aren't you voting me?

Why don't you mind turning it into you vs Not_Mafia as compared to someone else vs someone else? If you know you're town, this would be bad for town.

What do you mean, get a lynch together?

[Auro]

Anti-town doesn't necessarily imply scum, and I wish to lynch scum.

[Auro]

@Ariane:

I was noting to myself that it's interesting that people seem to be more interested in other players pitting against each other (or) reads on exchanges, than wanting to engage by themselves.

I'm sheeping you because I'm townreading you, and agree with your reasons on FL's vote.

[Auro]

Flavor, you'd be able to make that accusation no matter who I'd vote for - Lamees, Not_Mafia or you.

I've voiced some concerns on Lamees, I could have easily voted her, yeah?
Also, Lamees *was* on Not_Mafia even after I pointed out the playstyle thing, that never seemed off to ya? What's the point of looking at who's on to NM *after* I explicitly say his posts are NAI?

[Auro]

I still think we shouldnt all scatter our votes around. We can settle on FL vs auro then.

And this is less opportunistic to Flavor Leaf, with 3.5 days remaining this day phase.

[Auro]

I think the cow is actually townie. He’s doing more than i’ve Seen him do in a while.

Made the same observation, but are there any other newbie games he's played? It's plausible he'd "try" a bit more in a newbie game.

[Auro]

That’s a shame. I was town reading both Auro and Ariana. Guess i was wrong somewhere.

If the reason for the vote on you is bad enough to reverse on two townreads, I'd love it if you respond to the case and questions before declaring that one of us is scum.

[Auro]

I could sheep your vote citing I want Not_Maf to post more or claim.
I could sheep your "Lamees v Not_Maf" idea and vote Lamees for reasons I've already stated.

So neither of these cases would have seemed opportunistic to you, yeah?

[Auro]

Scum doesn’t miss the opportunity to wagon me, so my dissolving of town reads is just a natural response based on the lack of votes on me rather than the current votes. If that makes sense.

I'd sheep a townread if they have a good case, no matter who it's on. I can't refute the first part of that sentence objectively.

While it would feel like an OMGUS reaction in a vacuum, I do see where you're coming from, being the IC.

There's not been too much activity either, with many slots not posting much -- is the lack of wagoning unexpected? No one's getting wagoned at a normal pace.

[Auro]

I still think we shouldnt all scatter our votes around. We can settle on FL vs auro then.

And this is less opportunistic to Flavor Leaf, with 3.5 days remaining this day phase.

Yeah, that’s wasn’t the greatest post by Lamees.

Especially considering the last game we played there was 5 hours left in the day and we switched wagons to near lynch like thrice.

However it did end up with a no lynch, but just barely. No one wanted to hammer there, so we got stuck at L-1 a lot.

Why I'm not voting Lamees is that she makes very anti-town plays even as town (happened in my last game with her, at least) so I want to engage her as much as possible before wanting to lunch her. (No offense )

[Auro]

It would have. But that’s what I was after, to be honest. How everyone reacted towards that.

This is still the aftermath of that. The outcome of me going on NM/Lamees brought pressure to me, making it seem like one scum on me, and potentially one scum on NM/Lamees, but scum could just want to use them as a scapegoat later.

Scum could use them as a scapegoat anyway. If you think Lamees' reaction to NM wasn't scummy, anyone could have wagoned on without getting called out or scumread for it.

You're saying that you expect scum to vote for you because you looked a bit scummy - town doesn't know your alignment. You could be scum who looked a bit scummy, and invited votes from town.

[Auro]

possible before wanting to lunch her.

Lynch* before the mod catches the typo and weaves it into her narrative.

[Auro]

Scum would have lots of opportunities to cast their vote passively without any great case and get away with it, in this game at least IMO.

Some other slot also said they'll just lynch whoever. I've outlined different cases where no matter what I do, I could get read as opportunistic simply for placing my vote somewhere. And perhaps if I didn't place it anywhere there, I'd get accused for trying to break town cohesion.

If opportunism is what you search for, you'll find it everywhere.

[Auro]

And as I said before -- if you do think the case on you is so bad that it comes from scum, or someone who agrees and wagons is more likely scum than town -- go ahead and respond to it, and the questions Ariane and I posed.

[Auro]

Haha none taken. But in that game you were scum and I wanted to lynch you day 1. So how is that anti town? I'd say what was anti town was bbmolla, the guy just kept his vote on me for the entire game. Eventually forcing me to scum read him. And then I got lynched and town lost. Which is why no matter how accurately one reads the game, if town cannot work together it's pointless.

What I had in mind wasn't your reads -- your posts in D2 made you an obvlynch that game. This is a separate discussion, tho -- I've since attributed that it's just playstyle.

[Auro]

I think the case is valid. I just know it’s incorrect because I’m town. The fact I’m not getting piled on doesn’t make sense if scum isn’t already on my wagon somewhere.

It might not be you. It could be Ariane. I’m not the all knowing Flavor Leaf this early in the game. Haha

This applies to all wagons that have formed till now, from their perspectives. If the flashwagoning isn't happening to anyone, it's more probable that it's because of the town's general behaviour, yeah?

You're accepting the case is valid, yet not giving town any good reason to vote for me/Ariane (town don't know your alignment). You're not engaging about the case on you.

[Auro]

I could sheep your vote citing I want Not_Maf to post more or claim.
I could sheep your "Lamees v Not_Maf" idea and vote Lamees for reasons I've already stated.

So neither of these cases would have seemed opportunistic to you, yeah?

It would have. But that’s what I was after, to be honest. How everyone reacted towards that.

If you're accepting that whatever I do in that situation makes me look opportunistic, then your reasoning to scumread me is very weak, yeah?

[Auro]

I’m waiting for other players in case they want to jump on me, to be honest.

Sure, but it's a valid case according to three of us - how would someone agreeing and wagoning be alignment indicative? Town can have simple reasons to vote -- "There's a case on him and I want to pressure him to react".

Wouldn't it make more sense to make a defense on that case and look at reactions post the exchange?

[Auro]

@Flavor: Okay, nevermind -- I think I see what you're trying to do. I think I can discuss this later.

[Auro]

Auro (L-3)

: volxen, Flavor Leaf

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, Auro

Ariane (L-4)

: YurikoJasmine

YurikoJasmine (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

snowbeast, lionheart1492, Lamees

As scum, I could easily weave and thread something together and make a hard case on someone. I can turn nothing into a 4 part saga. Town, there’s no need for me to do that, because I don’t want a mislynch.

In this game so far, scum can get away with passivity too. Activity should be NAI at this point, for anyone.

[Auro]

You said that *as* scum you could hard case and push, justified your passivity as town. I mean that scum could get away with passivity and posting a lot isn't AI anyway, so your justification isn't convincing to me.

I agree with you about seeing how other players react at this stage.

[Auro]

Of course, if that was just you saying that and not expecting us to necessarily believe it, apologies.

[Auro]

I just don't think auro has taken this vote pressure from FL well. He is kinda flailing imo, he was all about votes for pressure but when it's on him the pressure was a bit too much. Pair that with the feeling I have that he has been prodding me all game in hopes I say something scummy for him to latch onto. High chance we got scum here. Also I really dont mind auro vs lamees too

I'm all about votes for pressure because pressure makes you engage. Which is what I'm doing. Which part of my exchange seemed like flails to you and not a valid counterargument?

I've been prodding you to say something scummy, while also saying that you often say scummy things but I'd attribute it to playstyle?

Second time you said "I don't mind X vs Lamees". LAMIST.

[Auro]

Lamees, do you think I engage only in defense?

If I was lining you up as the next scum target, why would I vote for FL instead of voting for you? Or do you mean the next target after scum!me gets FL lynched, in which case - why would I attribute scummy looking posts of yours as NAI?

[Auro]

From real life experience when we question suspected poachers the innocent have one solid story and the guilty bounce around under pressure

Above question goes to you as well. I'm engaging not out of defense only, but as part of scumhunting too.

[Auro]

What do you think of auros reaction to FLs vote on him then?

You can't respond to questions with accusations that scum!Auro is prodding you into saying something scummy and lynch you.

And there you go, deflecting questions and asking someone about their reads instead.

[Auro]

Also seems to be under a lot of pressure.
Auto also needs to be investigated.

Interesting. I don't think I'm under any pressure - one of my votes is VLA after an exchange he seems to have null read me for, another thinks I could be scum from his own perspective (which is flawed) and one because, well, she's Lamees.

Being under pressure doesn't imply scum, the way they respond to it does.

[Auro]

However, don't keep me at L-1 yet - NM may quickhammer. Treat L-2 as L-1 and ask for a claim before intending to hammer me.

[Auro]

That's the thing, it's like you'll throw in words like lamist and anti town but wont commit to a vote without any support, since it'd attract too much attention to you. You even quote a post of mine just to throw shade with stuff like "if FL doesnt see this as opportunistic" etc. It's like you are waiting for that 1 or 2 townies to start the wagon from the little hints you give. That is a true scum agenda. After a townie or two forms a wagon, you then capitalize on it with all the content you have been soft pushing throughout the thread. You voted FL because ariane voted FL.

Do you disagree with my reasons on why I don't want to commit to a vote on you, or scumread you?

I've been attracting a LOT of attention to me all game. I was quoting your post to peek into FL's thought processes, which i was successful at. If I was scum, there have been loads of wagons already I could've capitalized on, all with equally strong reasons.

I voted FL because I think the case on him is valid, which he agrees with, and a townread of mine is voting for him. Which part of this is scummy?

[Auro]

Are you referring to post 210? I wanted to address 209 too so that's why I posted to him first. Unless you are forcing me into tunnelling you?

Umm, asking you questions and wanting you to engage is now scum forcing you to tunnel them?

[Auro]

Reason I have not voted is maybe entering night might be good. People can investigate and hopefully get results. Also 5 votes for a lynch. I think we have 3 maf so of those 5 if it's a townie lynch we know 3 of them are maf. I'm not jumping on a band wagon and then have to explain myself unless the person makes a fatal error and warrants a lynch

Look at the setup. It's likely we'd have only one useful investigative result. It's always better to sort people as much as possible without relying on investigatives too much.

Which implies dayphase talk is important, and using your votes as tools is important.

[Auro]

Auro (L-2)

: volxen, Flavor Leaf, Lamees

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, Auro

Ariane (L-4)

: YurikoJasmine

YurikoJasmine (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

snowbeast, lionheart1492

Lamees, hypothetical. How would town!Auro go about to form a read on scum!Lamees?

[Auro]

Questions in both 206 and 210. Go.

[Auro]

Read the post order on the previous page and see what you said. You were acting as if I was ignoring your question in 210 just because I wanted to respond to 209(snowbeast)

Apologies if I felt you were ignoring questions from me 206/210 prematurely. Go ahead and respond to them now.

[Auro]

I'm all about votes for pressure because pressure makes you engage. Which is what I'm doing. Which part of my exchange seemed like flails to you and not a valid counterargument?

I'm sorry, I'm too dense and didn't find an answer to this in your posts.

Your response to the whole "scummy posts from Lamees are NAI" is that I'm saying that to avoud committing to a vote so I can set up a ML on you in future days, is it?

Town!Lamees shouldn't have a problem with the hypothetical -- I'm asking about how I approach engaging your slot and reading you without being called scummy for merely doing that. If you're town, it's in your best interest to answer that and let me engage and sort you on your terms.

Btw, scum team, PLEASE PLEASE NIGHT KILL NOT_MAFIA. PLEASE. Well if he is in fact on the scum team himself I guess we lost already lol.

Wow.

[Auro]

If I were scum, I don't think I'd have to work so hard at engaging people and plotting future mislynches, lol.

[Auro]

To answer 206, basically majority of your posts after FL's vote on you.

This must mean you disagree with my reasoning behind a majority of those posts, yeah? Could you pick out a couple of instances, just so I can see where you're coming from?

Exactly, my playstyle is active regardless of alignment. Therefore my engagement with FL, and my engagement with you is a result of me being active, which is NAI, and not flails in themselves. Agree?

[Auro]

I'm not suggesting hypoclaiming. I'm saying that opting to lynch NM should be a last-option lynch, and if investigatives can, they should clear/guilty him. Last game I played with him he made it to LyLo as town, and it just makes the game hard by that point.

They may not out themselves D2, but crumb a result somehow, for example.

If we can get a justified read on him, that's cool. I'd be fine if PoE left him as an option, too.

[Auro]

Although I'll agree with Flavor in that he seems to be contributing a lot more than usual, so it should be easier to sort him without having to resort to compromise lynching or waiting for an investigative.

[Auro]

Not_Mafia, please do post more and comprehensively. For the sake of the newbs. And so that LyLo isn't so goddamn difficult if you make it there.

[Auro]

Sure -- pick out a couple of instances of said content, and tell me specifically where you find my reasoning wrong.

[Auro]

Volxen, what do you make of the whole FL-Me-Lamees interactions? Are you scumreading me?

[Auro]

Okay, what makes you highly skeptical of me -- before rereading the previous pages?

[Auro]

I've already explained why I haven't voted Lamees - She often makes scummy posts and gives off those vibes, but it's not AI enough to actually lynch her.
I'd rather have a lot more content from her to dig in to her motivations and establish whether it's more likely to come from scum!Lamees than scummyTown!Lamees.
I was engaging with her and pointing out how her behaviour is anti-town/scummy, to see whether she changes her mind -- and if so, how.

I wasn't quite reading Flavor either way, but:
1. The case Ariane made on him made sense
2. I was TRing Ariane

Are these not sufficient to place my vote?

[Auro]

I don't think Lamees' reactions under *pressure* are useful -- go check out D2 of Newbie 1893, the posts leading up to her lynch.
IMO it's a better strategy to let her post more, prod her and get her to change track, and then search for motivation/agenda overall.
I *think* town!Lamees generally votes out of OMGUS-y reasons more and scum!Lamees decides on an agenda and pushes based on that (from a very loose skim of meta).

[Auro]

Snowbeast acknowledged he had the setup wrong and would vote shortly. I believe that explanation.

[Auro]

I don't think it's scummy for him to say that, considering newbie and first game and everything. I'm willing to give him a chance.

@Snowbeast, can you make your best attempt at reading into everyone's play, and form a reads list?

[Auro]

@Volxen:

I repeat - Pressure on Lamees isn't useful, and she flails as either alignment. It would only add to the entropy behind her posts, and make it even more difficult to sort.
I still assert that optimum Lamees-reading strategy is to observe her activity *without* pressure over a longer duration.
Acting scummy doesn't imply scummy if acting scummy is playstyle.

Agree?

[Auro]

I believe that pressured Volxen's reactions are pretty useful, in comparison.

[Auro]

What's the point of calling it out only to follow it by saying "Well I don't know, Lamees does this kind of stuff as both alignments..."?

To see whether she agrees with me and changes her direction, and if she does, where to.
I would have actively defended her if she got wagoned on the basis of her posts at that point.
If you're not getting what I'm trying to say, I can elaborate in detail.

[Auro]

@Lionheart: I'd say that you should employ Occam's razor and evaluate on what's more likely.

Is it more likely that Snowbeast is a smart guy who knows what he's doing, and made a deliberate townslip? Or that he's a newbie who misread the setup and thought mechanics would help a great deal? I definitely think the latter is much likelier.

[Auro]

What did you learn about my slot from the wagon that you started against me?

Didn't like your reactions much. Your wallposts seemed to contain a lot of fluff on wagon analysis/detailed refutations to single statements of mine, and you seemed more interested in collecting thoughts instead of direct engagement.

You did wall-post and jump into wagon analytics as town the previous game as well, but it feels different in this game - a bit more like you're trying to imitate that meta, and I don't feel your engagement so far has been completely honest.

Do you agree with my reasons for not pressuring Lamees?

[Auro]

Also, let me flip this on you, since you seem to be intent on sorting out my slot.

1. You asked me about FL's sheep, and I answered.
2. You asked me about my thoughts on Lion's case, and I responded saying that I think that may affect interactions.
3. You disagreed that I would voice my thoughts on a case the same regardless of alignment, and I explained that it was *my* belief, and it's not as relevant anyway WRT the content I'm producing overall.
4. You thought I was discarding Not_Mafia as a lynch altogether and only relying on investigatives; I clarified that suggesting that investigatives target him doesn't imply he's never a lynch option.
5. You asked me why I pointed out scummy Lamees plays but refused to vote for her, and I justified that.
6. You asked why I'm not trying to pressure Lamees, and I explained why.

Your vote's still on me, so I get a feeling you're either refusing to revise your stance on my slot, OR that you think my responses are insufficient. If it's the latter, feel free to engage me further on the relevant point(s).

[Auro]

Yes. Under pressure, you seemed to vote for a bunch of people for all sorts of reasons. You *were* flailing IMO, just that it was town flailing and not scum.
Town did have reasons apart from the flail to vote for you, based on your D1 hammers IIRC.
I didn't even have to push your lynch all that much then. Which is why I've stated explicitly in this game that it's not scum indicative for you -- I don't want the same situation to repeat and scum to enjoy what they might see as an 'easy mislynch' again.

A few townpoints to you for introspectively reading up that game again.

[Auro]

Sure -- pick out a couple of instances of said content, and tell me specifically where you find my reasoning wrong.

Also, you've not responded to this -- So I take it that you are saying I was 'flailing' with well-reasoned, logically valid counter-arguments?

[Auro]

Auro - Scum lean, seems to be in hard defense mode, most of his recent posts have been defensive and usually ends up with him trying to hi-light agreement to his cases or repeat questions and answers until some sort of stalemate wifom is achieved

This Lamees was either a robot pushing an agenda, or a very derpy human who was reticent to anything resembling logic. She kept flinging accusations at me faster than I could voice my thoughts, no matter what I tried to say. The stubborn player was consistent in her refusal to answer questions about her play, but the most surprising part of this was that it seemed to go largely unnoticed. And another player even said he liked her logic! Oh god.

I was beginning to think it wasn't fruitful to engage with her at all -- if any attempt at that would only add to her deeply tunneled confirmation bias, perhaps I should stop.

>"flailing"
By giving valid counter-arguments you can't find a problem with.

>"defensive"
Why shouldn't I defend myself on a push against me?

>"repeat questions"
There hasn't been a stalemate, just your refusal to answer. Ref 241. WIFOM, what?

>"repeat answers"
When people ask me things I've already clarified on.

>"hi-light agreements"
I'm a team player. I work with others.
If a player makes a case on me, it's equivalent to "Are you revising your read?"

To me, Lamees is either a *really* derpy OMGUS-y logic-phobic town, or scum who sees the most aggressive player as a threat, and wants them gone. I'm beginning to lean towards the latter. I'll not engage with her further.

[Auro]

purely due to activity around their voting and then seemingly hiding in the background and only popping up in post 229 claiming we must lynch a player who asked to be lynched and with it possible getting an easy D1 townie Lynch (assumption) and capatalising on it with a night kill. We wake up two down. Then in the same post he for some reason defends Auro??? VOTE: not_mafia

Have you read other posts? This is how Not_Mafia is, as a player, both alignments.

Why is defending me such a strong scumread?

If you agree with Lamees' posts and "reasoning", shouldn't you be voting for me instead?

[Auro]

possible before wanting to lunch her.

Lynch* before the mod catches the typo and weaves it into her narrative.

Sigh

Mod edit:

sorry but after you so

helpfully

drew my attention to it, I couldn't help myself!

[Auro]

I have never read his other posts. I will join the wagon

I meant MY other posts in this game.

I just hope you guys are right.

They're wrong. Stop sheeping Lamees, of all people, and come up with original thoughts of your own.

[Auro]

Also,

I am at L-1

now.

Do NOT

vote for me before stating intent, I have a ton of wallposts to make.

State an Intent to Hammer first.

If anyone quickhammers me, they're scum, along with Lamees > Flavor > Volxen > Snowbeast IMO (Since I'm pretty sure there's no way my wagon is all-town), get them post flip.

[Auro]

Auro lynch is bad

Not_Mafia quickhammering won't be NAI here, thanks to above quote.

[Auro]

Quick reminder that Lamees doesn't have a solid case on me - It's just her accusing me of "over-defending" and "flailing", neither of which I've done, and she can't even substantiate. If I flip green, Lamees, are you saying you're ready to be lynched in D2? O.o

Flavor's reason to vote me is some passive PoE, disappointing for an experienced player -- He should very well share some of that responsibility as well.

[Auro]

No lynch is not cool at all.

[Auro]

@Not_Mafia, if not Yuriko, who else do you think is a good lynch today?

@Lamees: Not at all. I'm ready to vote with Not_Mafia and Ariane (both TRs for me at this point). I believe Volxen should change his read on me by now, and should join in. I don't think Flavor Leaf is going to continue voting for me either without a good case -- if he's casing, I'm ready to hear.

[Auro]

Umm, I'm townreading Ariane, Not_Mafia, and you.
How is that "anyone but me"?

[Auro]

but it would be nice if Yuriko or Ariane just hammers him.

Actually, I'll scratch you off that list.
If it's nice that they just hammer me, why don't you?

[Auro]

@Lion: Umm, I'd rather none of {Me, Ariane, Not_Mafia} get lynched.
If it came down to either me or one of them, I'd rather them get lynched, since I'm the only confirmed town to myself.

The wagon on me is scum motivated. FL is part of that wagon, why do you think his analysis would be any fairer? Wouldn't my analysis be the most useful in case I do get hammered?

[Auro]

Was*

[Auro]

@FL: I'm townreading the last two. Snowbeast's behavior seems to come more out of newbie town behaviour, I figure if he's scum, he'd slip up some time.

Didn't like Volxen's interactions as I've said previously, don't think he's been engaging honestly either -- out of that set, I'd say he's the scummiest.

[Auro]

@Lion: Umm, I'd rather none of {Me, Ariane, Not_Mafia} get lynched.
If it came down to either me or one of them, I'd rather them get lynched, since I'm the only confirmed town to myself.

The wagon on me is scum motivated. FL is part of that wagon, why do you think his analysis would be any fairer? Wouldn't my analysis be the most useful in case I do get hammered?

Because I’m not the scum that was on your wagon, and I think lion and Lamees see that.

They don't know your alignment, so either they're towning you enough to consider that your prior wagoning can't be scum motivated, or they contain scum that already knows your alignment.

[Auro]

I think you’re wrong on one of NM/Ariana, but we can deal with that another time.

I can see where you're coming from on Ariane. Not_Maf has been a lot more involved than usual and didn't hop on to hammer me, and said I'm a bad lynch. Scum!NM needn't have done that and could've stayed NAI, no?

[Auro]

Auro saying that he is the only co firmed town to himself is what I was getting at with the “anyone but me”

Everyone is confirmed town to themselves. Are you not?

[Auro]

VOTE: Volxen

I can see the newbie town in Snowbeast.

I think you’re town, Auro. Give me a chance to show that I’m town. I have zero reason as scum to come in and post right now, let alone unvote you when I’m the next biggest wagon.

You weren't my favorite lynch anyway -- I was noting that your activity in other games has been down too.

I'll be happy to vote Volxen. Ariane, what do you think?

[Auro]

UNVOTE: Flavor Leaf

For now.

[Auro]

Cue Newbie 1893, the last game Lamees and I were in, where Thor went off a wagon at L-1 because he didn't scumread that slot anymore. And flipped town at the end.

[Auro]

I will take full responsibility if auro flips green. He won't but in the rare case he does.

Turning it against me would be kinda hard when you had a wagon of players scum reading you day 1.

[Auro]

Side note: Lion, can you get an avatar?

[Auro]

I will take full responsibility if auro flips green. He won't but in the rare case he does.

Turning it against me would be kinda hard when you had a wagon of players scum reading you day 1.

He's not the easiest lynch tomorrow, you would be. If I did get lynched.

[Auro]

LAMIST

[Auro]

As pointed out he was in "anyone but me" mode. Even admitted he wouldnt want FL to be lynched but this vote and wagon was there anyway. But I guess that panicky survival instincts isnt really alignment indicative, and new town would often do weird stuff to avoid a lynch.

LOL. I think I'm a fairly capable town players, TYVM.

Obviously I'd want to lynch anyone but me, if it came down to me or anyone else. Only an idiot would be okay with being the day's lynch, even as town. Almost equivalent to self-voting.

[Auro]

Gah typos, player* I'm not a hydra.

[Auro]

Still dislike Volxen's posts.

Ariane -- Flavor's trying to reach consensus based on a townread, given we're getting closer to the deadline. He said he's not sure of my townreading you and Not_Mafia, and also knows there's no way you're getting lynched.

Why would town!Flavor try to push a wagon that won't fly, this close to the deadline?

[Auro]

No, I completely disagree. I don’t believe anyone should be given “special” treatment (such as not voting them when you otherwise normally would) based purely on meta reasons. Especially in the case of Lamees, who has only completed five games and been on the site for two months.

Your position is basically making the assumption beforehand that voting for Lamees would be a pointless endeavor because in previous games she has flailed as town, and thus nothing useful or potentially AI could possibly be gleaned from how she would react to the pressure in this game. I disagree with making such an assumption without even trying.

This is *my* belief, *my* strategy to get *my* most accurate reads as town. I've not made the assumption -- I've SEEN her react to pressure.

Why are YOU throwing shade at my choice of how I choose to play, without attacking the argument itself?

>"Pressure is wasted on Lamees, she flails as town"
If you think her meta is unreliable for this, sure. But shading me for thinking so? Nah. Robot.

Meta always makes you treat someone slightly different, depending on the context.

[Auro]

Why I don't want to lynch Flavor today:

:He actually admitted that the PoE was lazy, and wanted to garner reactions in the FL-Auro exchange
:He wasn't active anywhere onsite, consistent with above
:He's one of the players willing to work *with* others, his engagement has been much more honest compared to, say, Volxen
:His behaviour towards Lamees is consistent with her meta - He played a game where she's scum
:No real scum motivation to dismantle the wagon on me, as the second biggest wagon

Ariane, do you think a wagon on you could, in theory, be pushed to lynch 2 days from the deadline in this gamestate?
If you don't think so, town!Flavor won't think so.
If he continued pushing you from the PoE reasoning, that's lazy again -- so you'd want to lynch him anyway.
If someone does X and gets scumread, and does ~X and also gets scumread, the reader should re-evaluate.

Flavor admitted it was a lazy vote and used game information to narrow down on his lynchpool, and found an intersection with mine. That's working with townreads and not compro-lynching ATM. There's obvious town motivation in that.
For useful reference: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... n_Cohesion

[Auro]

No, I completely disagree. I don’t believe anyone should be given “special” treatment (such as not voting them when you otherwise normally would) based purely on meta reasons. Especially in the case of Lamees, who has only completed five games and been on the site for two months.

"Meta", can sort these slots at a later point more accurately, reasonable to search for scummier prospects

Your position is basically making the assumption beforehand that voting for Lamees would be a pointless endeavor because in previous games she has flailed as town, and thus nothing useful or potentially AI could possibly be gleaned from how she would react to the pressure

in this game

. I disagree with making such an assumption without even trying.

You've been scumreading other slots too, you've just been tunnelling me throughout.
Why was I the only person you were trying to pressure?

Yes you had a back-and-forth exchange with Lamees, but I think it would have been far more useful if you had actually pressured her with a vote while still questioning/engaging her (as you did with me earlier in the game). Maybe she would have “flailed”, or maybe she wouldn’t have – we don’t know for sure from the handful of games that she has completed. But either way, it’s entirely possible that there *would* have been AI things in how she responded to the pressure.

Possible

, but I've better plays to make.
Everyone's "possibly" scum, doesn't mean I'm voting everyone each and every player to reaction-test.

Even if she ended up flailing, there is a difference between town flailing and scum flailing, so it can still be potentially AI.

Her town failing was horribly misread as scum flailing last game. You can disagree with me here, but if you can't see where I'm coming from in my play, you're being dishonest.

But the point is, if you truly were finding her to be *very* scummy, what did you have to lose by voting for her and pressuring her? I would argue nothing, but you could have potentially gained a lot. So why not do it? And that’s what I find suspicious with respect to your voting – you identify Lamees as the person you currently find to be the scummiest, but then you don’t vote for her based purely on meta reasons.

My read now has changed, but at that time I didn't find her the scummiest -- I found her *plays* the scummiest, and also mentioned that's NAI for her.
I constantly pointed it out to get her to change her play, and reached the conclusion that she's stubborn town or agenda-pushing scum.

It’s the same thing with respect to your stance on Not_Mafia, although it’s *slightly* more understandable in his case because he has been on the site for well over four years and has a *much* more established meta than Lamees. Still, even in his case I don’t agree with giving his slot special treatment, or the notion that his slot doesn’t need to be read because an investigative TPR will deal with that for us.

Misrepresentation of my earlier stance + ignorance of my clarification that Not_Mafia should be a PoE lynch.
I'm townreading Not_Mafia now for non-meta reasons.

I do find it highly suspicious to throw a lot of shade at someone and then claim that you aren’t voting for them because of meta reasons.

Scum motivation for this? If I can push a mislynch on *valid* grounds, especially when there's a wagon on me, why wouldn't I?
Besides, again, you honestly can't suspect someone because of how they chose to interpret meta and play.
"They do X as town too, therefore X is NAI" is far more reliable than "They do X as scum, therefore scum".

What are your thoughts on Flavor Leaf currently?

Posted above. scum!Flavor would know that my wagon would be hunted in D2.
scum!Flavor could judge that it's useful to pocket me. I'm not townreading him, but he's not my favorite lynch either.

[Auro]

As I said previously, Lion is the only slot that I find to be truly towny.

:Getting major scum vibes from this.
:Volxen's clearly meta-aware.
:He looks like he's trying to copy town meta.

I'm not solid at all on this, but if there's someone who can do a more comprehensive meta-evaluation, do go ahead.

[Auro]

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, volxen

Auro (L-4)

: snowbeast

Lamees (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

volxen (L-4)

: Flavor Leaf

Ariane (L-4)

: YurikoJasmine

lionheart1492, Auro, Lamees

You may have a hard time interpreting my meta, but I'm very comfortable using certain kinds of meta.

1. "X has done Y as town -> X doing Y is NAI"
2. "X has done Y as scum -> X doing Y is scum"

Both my 'meta-based actions' have been the *first* kind, which is reliable enough to narrow down on a D1 lynch.

Ah, your 'copying town meta' isn't the Lion townread alone, I figure from your general posting this game. A non-case anyway ATM, if someone actually objectively lays it down, it'll hold more wait.

[Auro]

Also, let me flip this on you, since you seem to be intent on sorting out my slot.

1. You asked me about FL's sheep, and I answered.
2. You asked me about my thoughts on Lion's case, and I responded saying that I think that may affect interactions.
3. You disagreed that I would voice my thoughts on a case the same regardless of alignment, and I explained that it was *my* belief, and it's not as relevant anyway WRT the content I'm producing overall.
4. You thought I was discarding Not_Mafia as a lynch altogether and only relying on investigatives; I clarified that suggesting that investigatives target him doesn't imply he's never a lynch option.
5. You asked me why I pointed out scummy Lamees plays but refused to vote for her, and I justified that.
6. You asked why I'm not trying to pressure Lamees, and I explained why.

Your vote's still on me, so I get a feeling you're either refusing to revise your stance on my slot, OR that you think my responses are insufficient. If it's the latter, feel free to engage me further on the relevant point(s).

7. You disputed my reasons for 4|5, I justified them.
8. You asked me about my thoughts on FL, and I answered.

Add the above to the list. Now, use these numbers and show me what exactly makes you scumread me that highly.
Calling out your engagement for not being honest is not me "throwing shade". You have had opportunity to start engaging honestly.

[Auro]

I would +1 for that extension, also because of Yuriko's slot.

[Auro]

I don't see it happening within the next 2 days

. We would need around 5 townies on 1 wagon to lynch scum. And only 3 townies on 1 wagon to lynch a town.

If the auro wagon breaks down,

0 chance to lynch scum in 2 days

, will be a no lynch or miss lynch.

@Not_Mafia, if not Yuriko, who else do you think is a good lynch today?

@Lamees: Not at all. I'm ready to vote with Not_Mafia and Ariane (both TRs for me at this point). I believe Volxen should change his read on me by now, and should join in. I don't think Flavor Leaf is going to continue voting for me either without a good case -- if he's casing, I'm ready to hear.

It'll be a miss lynch then. Guarantee it.

I am 100% against the extension.

[Auro]

1. Yuriko's absence favors scum.
2. People not able to participate due to Thanksgiving favors scum.

A one-day extension can balance this.

[Auro]

At least the second is an external factor that's influencing the game, mod has full rights to interfere and balance that.
Volxen needs a chance at also hearing FL's case against him, and defending himself.

[Auro]

FL hasn't made his case yet.

That wouldn't be okay. But if *at least* 2 players are unable to participate because of a common, important external factor, it's justified that they get an extra day.

If it was Volxen asking for an extension for personal reasons, unreasonable. Anyway, this ain't my argument Whatever the mod wishes.

[Auro]

I think we should try to lynch soon regardless of what the mod decides.

Waiting for FL's own case on Volxen, Ariane to post her thoughts, Volxen to offer a defense.

I'm not voting prematurely because we have multiple slots willing to sheep.

If you're trying TWTBAW "scum will more likely pounce on me" tactics, that's not gonna work. If you're town, you're painting yourself as a *valid* target, scum might just sit back and let the lynch happen.

@FL: Why don't you think scum!Lamees wouldn't do what she's doing so far? Is deep tunneling, LAMEEST, seeking to bum-rush a... lunch, beyond her scumgame? Don't you think her anti-town behaviour should not be encouraged?

[Auro]

I don't mean you're doing that in 389, just a lot of recent behaviour of yours.
"I will take full responsibility"
"We should lynch soon regardless of extension" after "With only 2 days it's a guaranteed mislynch"
"That's the scummiest play in history"

Blah blah

[Auro]

I *think* I know what you've been trying to do, it's just not gonna work
But go on if you believe that.

[Auro]

Ariane, you were gonna post some thoughts yourself..?
Only thing discouraging me from going ahead with Volxen is Lamees' attempts to rush it.

[Auro]

I've read Volxen's ISO, and it's funny how he never responded to WHY he shifted his vote from me to Flavor Leaf.

He talks about how scum!Flavor could have motivations in unvoting me, and concludes by saying: "The fact that you left Auro's wagon in favor of voting for me and presenting a case against me does not in and of itself clear you as town."

He said he voiced skepticism of Flavor way back in post 245. Even there, it's just skepticism and NOT a scumread. He simply says that if Flavor's town it makes sense, and if Flavor's scum it makes sense.

To summarise, from Volx's POV:
1. Flavor's reaction test can come from town or scum
2. Flavor's unvoting Auro can come from town or scum

And goes on to unvote me and vote Flavor. While maintaining that he's *highly* suspicious of me.

Therefore,
VOTE: Volxen

[Auro]

I can see why you would push the fact thatnI'm "anti town" all game. So that you can shift blame later on.

If I would have gotten lynched, you would've gotten lynched in D2 ("taking full responsibility") and put town in LyLo.

[Auro]

What's your Volxen read? Do you agree/disagree with our case on him?
Where will you be voting?

[Auro]

You don't think NM is an easy lynch?
Which part of our case on Volxen do you disagree with?

[Auro]

Volxen, I'm not buying that.

You voted Flavor in 359.
Flavor's "VCA misrepresentation" was in 360.

Why did you unvote me and vote for him *in 359*?

[Auro]

Stealing post 420 before Flavor Leaf gets to it

[Auro]

I'm aware of that timeline. I was already suspicious of him at the time that I voted for him, especially when he uses language like "a wagon is brewing on you", where he is talking as if my lynch today is a foregone conclusion before he even presented a "case" against me. His follow up with the VCA misrepresentation just further cemented my suspicions of his slot.

"A wagon is brewing on you" doesn't mean your lynch is a foregone conclusion.
It was perfectly reasonable, as he and I were ready to vote for you, and a couple of slots who were townreading me could've, as well.
(Ariane and Not_Maf both think my wagon was scum motivated)
I can't buy that that phrase alone made you more suspicious of ME, who you were "highly suspicious" of, where the rest of his actions could, in your words, "come from town or scum".

I changed my vote to him because that is where I currently want to apply pressure.

We're pretty close to the day end, so this doesn't even make sense. I was your top scumread, and anyone who votes at that time votes to lynch, not just to 'apply pressure'.

[Auro]

No other defense? Volxen, give us a detailed reads list.

[Auro]

volxen (L-3)

: Flavor Leaf, Auro

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, volxen

Auro (L-4)

: snowbeast

Lamees (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

Ariane (L-4)

: YurikoJasmine

lionheart1492, Lamees

I'd like a reads list from the rest, too.
Especially your thoughts on Volxen.
If anyone thinks the case on Volxen is not worth voting him, state it.


The other lynch I'd be happy with is Snowbeast.
I wouldn't want to lose town!Volxen so early in the game.

[Auro]

@Snowbeast: Wagon analysis isn't really reliable isolated.
I think, and a couple others think that my own wagon is scum-motivated. (Aggressive player, blah blah)
From Flavor Leaf's POV, he's town, therefore players who voted for him AND me could likely contain scum.

You're describing bussing, an often used strategy between scum. It's not necessary that scum does that.
Keep wagon analysis aside, look at the cases each of us is making, and evaluate them on how much you agree/disagree.
If something stands out as scummy, point it out.

Look at mine and Flavor Leaf's posts on Volxen, as a start point. What do you think of them? Do you think/feel it's incorrect?

[Auro]

Because she's my targeted mislynch for D2

[Auro]

Lamees could be doing it as scum, sure, but at the moment, I don’t have any reason to believe so, and I can see genuine townie reactions in her posts. If enough actions happen that shows otherwise, then yeah, get on her.

Also Ariane hasn't really found enough reason to vote her, and both of them have played games with her before I think. FL with scum Lamees.

I'm half-inclined to actually just vote for her instead, but I'm not perfectly sure. Like she posts that way as town, but she seems very agenda driven this game, IDK.

[Auro]

Why is lamees not being lynched?

Don't you think Volxen's a good lynch?
I mean he's been deeply tunneled on me throughout the game, didn't bother much to scumhunt elsewhere, loads of fluff-posts, unnatural vote progression to Flavor Leaf, etc.

[Auro]

Neither is it for yours, but we're not lynching you either ATM, are we?

[Auro]

Not_Mafia is town, the fact that he didn't quickhammer me and called out the scum-motivation on it, coupled with the greater-than-zero amount of gamesolving so far makes him town.

Could also be NewbieGame!NM but whatever, town to me.

[Auro]

I'm not townreading anyone on my wagon.
What you say is correct, BUT - your vote was still on me through the buildup to L-1, even when you found FL doing things that weren't pinging you right.
I also don't necessarily believe there was only one scum on my wagon. Lamees' "full responsibility" schtick might even be because she didn't want the other to be lynched for it.

I'm scumreading you for reasons independent of my VCA; VCA only supports it. You're not defending yourself from that case, just throwing more fluff my way. I've already stated why Flavor Leaf isn't my favorite lunch (whatevz) today, also Lamees I'm unsure of. Snowbeast is also an option for me, as I've stated -- you simply have a lot more scum equity anyway.

I'm open to revising my stance if you give a proper defence. So far, you haven't - just deflecting, as Flavor pointed out.

[Auro]

volxen (L-3)

: Flavor Leaf, Auro

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, volxen

Auro (L-4)

: snowbeast

Lamees (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

Ariane (L-4)

: YurikoJasmine

lionheart1492, Lamees

What you say is correct, BUT - your vote was still on me through the buildup to L-1, even when you found FL doing things that weren't pinging you right.

Isolated, this wouldn't count -- you would simply be pressuring me and I agree it got from L-4 to L-1 pretty fast.

But pressure became "lynch target" somewhere along that line, and when it came to L-1, you could *see* that the rest of my wagon wasn't exactly casing me all that strongly, you kept pushing there.

Chuck the whole wagon-motivation arguments, those are weak for town anyway since my alignment isn't known to town either way, as you point out. I've called you out on the FL vote change and lack of honest engagement, and the non-scumhunting that I'd expect town Volxen to do. Respond to those. Change my mind.

[Auro]

Sheep Lamees blindly to get townread by her, and call out her scummy plays to get scumread.

[Auro]

And you're nulling Volxen because I'm pushing him?
Or something to do with the case itself?
What, precisely?

[Auro]

"He tried to lunch me*
Do you think this is the basis of the case on him?

[Auro]

FMPOV and off the top of my head, scumread on Snowbeast because:
Fluff, no vote till post 270,the Not_Mafia vote without reading other posts, sheeping your reads list (which I find bad currently), hopping onto my wagon at L-2 blindly, "scum would do this | I would do that if I were scum" posts.

Like pretty unsure and confused about everything but ready to sheep you readily. *Ping*

[Auro]

"He tried to lunch me*
Do you think this is the basis of the case on him?

Pretty much. I remember you pushing a pressure wagon on him. Didnt someone (maybe even you yourself) say that he passed that pressure stuff? Because the wagon on him dissolved. It picked up again because you almost got lynched.

You're not bothering to read my posts then.
I'm casing him independently of his presence on my wagon.

[Auro]

Because the wagon on him dissolved. It picked up again because you almost got lynched.

Incorrect. There was never a wagon on him, I was the only vote IIRC. I disbanded the single person wagon myself, and not because I was satisfied with his reactions. I picked it up again because his later posts have been far from satisfying, and I changed my mind on the FL vote.

[Auro]

He voted Not_Mafia, who you were obvscumming for a long time. May not be "sheeping", but still a careless vote. He quoted your reads list and said he's on the same page as you -- without any original thought of his own -- that's sheeping.

It's okay if those reasons don't ping you as necessarily scummy -- they're not very solid anyway. He doesn't seem to be all that original and gamesolvey too, not a great asset to town.

Newbie scum can easily fake town slips, and can also be coached into them, so null to me.

[Auro]

Unvoting auro there is the scummiest move in history tbh

UNVOTE:

This is the opposite of true

Why does scum Flavour Leaf risk destabilising that wagon?

[Auro]

Oh you're misreading that -- she was referring to Flavor Leaf unvoting me. Not_Mafia then unvoted Flavor Leaf.

[Auro]

I was, the post I quoted was NM unvoting. The inner quote was Lamees calling FL's unvote scummy.

[Auro]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Snowbeast

Volxen, you seem pretty detached from the game. Hm, maybe that's PR!Volx. Your signature gives me hope

[Auro]

That looks like fence sitting instead of taking a hard stance. Your predecessor's vote on Lames was also not good. I think ariane is the lynch for d1.

Fence-sitting about what? Your predecessor was flaking big time.
I didn't make any big comments on your slot either, but the sudden Ariane vote *after* she voted Flavor Leaf isn't so great, right?
Don't you think a good part of Ariane's behaviour can be attributed to playstyle without any compelling scum motivations?
Don't you think scum!Ariane would've moved on from Flavor Leaf by now, given her townread slots aren't willing to lynch him?

Lion is right about Snowbeast overselling the newb!Town schtick. Snowbeast's capable of playing the game, but he's taking the very safe route of sheeping and offering meta-observations (Read his ISO), which could be more indicative of newb!Scum.

I think Snowbeast should be the lynch today.

[Auro]

You're right in that it's not a co-incidence.

141 is me stating I like Ariane's reasoning and towning her for similar mindsets. Which part of that is weird?
Why shouldn't I defend a townread of mine from a reachy attack?
I've also defended Not_Mafia (a TR) from Lamees earlier, what makes {Auro, Not_Mafia} not a possible scumteam?
So you're "consolidating votes" with a prior possible-scumread of yours?

You've every right to call them "weird questions" - but that's not an excuse to avoid answering them.
You've quoted a bunch of my posts, I don't see half of them supporting/even relevant to your conclusions.

[Auro]

>Volxen lynch going through; Performer's fine
>Volxwagon disbands on claim
>Snowbeast is the next biggest lynch option
>Performer launches reachy attack on Ariane
>Called out on that, launches attack on me

I'm drawing a thick line of association between Snowbeast and Performer here.

[Auro]

@auro In terms of you and nm , I think that's not possible as I have nm as town.

Sure. Now, both {Auro, Not_Mafia} and {Auro, Ariane} can't be the solve at the same time.
Both of them are slots I townread.
If I'm able to defend one of the slots from a bad attack and you don't find a problem, you shouldn't be attacking me for defending the other.

Ergo your vote on me because "Oh Auro defending scum partner Ariane!!" is laughable.

Pedit: Volxen kept flinging questions at me throughout and I engaged him on that.
Which interactions of mine specifically ping you as scum?
Voting townreads of yours - LOL. I voted Volxen, Flavor and Snowbeast so far IIRC. This is a stupid accusation, because:

Of my sr, I'm less certain of ariane compared to volx & snow. Anyone who takes a look at snow's ISO can understand why.

VOTE: volxen
It looks very much like volx & FL are opposite alignments.

[Auro]

> "Volx and FL are opposite alignments" (482)
> "FL should be saved tonight. That's my best recommendation." (482)
> Volxen claims and is assumed town now
> "also I completely retract this recommendation" (488)
==========================================
> "It's quite clear that I have FL as a tr so I won't be voting FL."

Flip-Flop-Flail

[Auro]

Just pointing out that "It looks very much like volx & FL are opposite alignments" is what Performer said, not me.
Your response is what you should've given to Ariane in your post 514, which you didn't.

We lynch Snowbeast today, and if we get a red flip, Performer.

[Auro]

Auro if you want to keep talking walls with you defending your townreads, go right ahead.

Yeah sure first I'm "posing weird questions" and now it's "walls". Don't think anyone's gonna buy those excuses for avoiding questions.

I neither have the time or am the type of player to talk in circles or fluff up the thread with walls, so letting you know that now.

Oh that's funny, because...

Spoiler:

Lamees, give me good reason to vote Not_Mafia and I will.

I just don't think auro has taken this vote pressure from FL well. He is kinda flailing imo, he was all about votes for pressure but when it's on him the pressure was a bit too much. Pair that with the feeling I have that he has been prodding me all game in hopes I say something scummy for him to latch onto. High chance we got scum here. Also I really dont mind auro vs lamees too

I'm all about votes for pressure because pressure makes you engage. Which is what I'm doing. Which part of my exchange seemed like flails to you and not a valid counterargument?

I've been prodding you to say something scummy, while also saying that you often say scummy things but I'd attribute it to playstyle?

Second time you said "I don't mind X vs Lamees". LAMIST.

Volxen, what do you make of the whole FL-Me-Lamees interactions? Are you scumreading me?

Also,

I am at L-1

If anyone quickhammers me, they're scum, along with Lamees > Flavor > Volxen > Snowbeast IMO (Since I'm pretty sure there's no way my wagon is all-town), get them post flip.

@FL: I'm townreading the last two. Snowbeast's behavior seems to come more out of newbie town behaviour, I figure if he's scum, he'd slip up some time.

Didn't like Volxen's interactions as I've said previously, don't think he's been engaging honestly either -- out of that set, I'd say he's the scummiest.

VOTE: Volxen

I can see the newbie town in Snowbeast.

I think you’re town, Auro. Give me a chance to show that I’m town. I have zero reason as scum to come in and post right now, let alone unvote you when I’m the next biggest wagon.

You weren't my favorite lynch anyway -- I was noting that your activity in other games has been down too.

I'll be happy to vote Volxen. Ariane, what do you think?

Still dislike Volxen's posts.

Ariane -- Flavor's trying to reach consensus based on a townread, given we're getting closer to the deadline. He said he's not sure of my townreading you and Not_Mafia, and also knows there's no way you're getting lynched.

Why would town!Flavor try to push a wagon that won't fly, this close to the deadline?

As I said previously, Lion is the only slot that I find to be truly towny.

:Getting major scum vibes from this.
:Volxen's clearly meta-aware.
:He looks like he's trying to copy town meta.

I'm not solid at all on this, but if there's someone who can do a more comprehensive meta-evaluation, do go ahead.

Why is lamees not being lynched?

Don't you think Volxen's a good lynch?
I mean he's been deeply tunneled on me throughout the game, didn't bother much to scumhunt elsewhere, loads of fluff-posts, unnatural vote progression to Flavor Leaf, etc.

Upon looking through auro's ISO, he's been on volx a long time, defended ariane a bunch, posted a weird 141 post that makes me think he & ariane are the scum team...ariane said auro was her tr and auro has townread her for the longest time. And now he asks me a couple weird questions that further make me think he's protecting ariane a scum partner. All of this is too much to be a coincidence.


Now I'm thinking ariane/auro with a lesser chance of snowman .
Seeing as Ariane has no other votes and deadline is soon and I'm traveling tomorrow on a preplanned trip, it's better to consolidate votes.
VOTE: Auro

[Auro]

Spoiler:

You're right in that it's not a co-incidence.

141 is me stating I like Ariane's reasoning and towning her for similar mindsets. Which part of that is weird?
Why shouldn't I defend a townread of mine from a reachy attack?
I've also defended Not_Mafia (a TR) from Lamees earlier, what makes {Auro, Not_Mafia} not a possible scumteam?
So you're "consolidating votes" with a prior possible-scumread of yours?

You've every right to call them "weird questions" - but that's not an excuse to avoid answering them.
You've quoted a bunch of my posts, I don't see half of them supporting/even relevant to your conclusions.

How is this a wall? Are my sentences long? This is my best attempt at shortening it:

Spoiler:

1. Why's it weird to say I like Ariane's reasoning?
2. Why shouldn't I defend a townread from a reachy attack?
3. I defended NM, why isn't {Auro, NM} a scumteam?
4. You're consolidating votes with a scumread of yours?

If you'd prefer I engage you with one question at a time, I'll do that.

[Auro]

Vote Snowsheep

[Auro]

Can't say I didnt see that one coming. Volxen is power role every game he's in.

Scum would claim a PR anyway I think; however, we've not had a CC yet and it's in PR!Volxen's meta to be a bit... detached till outed, so he's probably town.

[Auro]

Lamees, your vote isn't anywhere, who should be today's lynch then?

[Auro]

@FL: Snowsheep|Performer is my favorite solve ATM, although I can see associations with other slots as well. Ariane's soft-tunnel on you strikes me as towny though, I feel scum!Ariane would've quickly gauged the gamestate and gone on to sheep our Volx-vote. *Shrug*

@Lamees: At least 4 of us think he's town. He's not going to be today's lynch.

[Auro]

It's not [Not_Mafia vs No Lynch] here.
It's [Snowbeast vs *anyone else*].

Give reasons for anyone being a

better

lynch than Snowbeast that's not OMGUS

[Auro]

Spoiler:

Why I don't want to lynch Flavor today:

:He actually admitted that the PoE was lazy, and wanted to garner reactions in the FL-Auro exchange
:He wasn't active anywhere onsite, consistent with above
:He's one of the players willing to work *with* others, his engagement has been much more honest compared to, say, Volxen
:His behaviour towards Lamees is consistent with her meta - He played a game where she's scum
:No real scum motivation to dismantle the wagon on me, as the second biggest wagon

Ariane, do you think a wagon on you could, in theory, be pushed to lynch 2 days from the deadline in this gamestate?
If you don't think so, town!Flavor won't think so.
If he continued pushing you from the PoE reasoning, that's lazy again -- so you'd want to lynch him anyway.
If someone does X and gets scumread, and does ~X and also gets scumread, the reader should re-evaluate.

Flavor admitted it was a lazy vote and used game information to narrow down on his lynchpool, and found an intersection with mine. That's working with townreads and not compro-lynching ATM. There's obvious town motivation in that.
For useful reference: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... n_Cohesion

Ariane, I think above still applies. Flavor's been

kinda

OMGUSing in a sense but I can see where that comes from, if it's general perception that he's a really strong player and scum would want to get rid of him

Is there anything apart from his veiled OMGUS that makes you want to lynch him?

[Auro]

also, general perception from who? This is a newbie game, and this is my 4th game, and I've never heard of him

I only heard his name, but well, he is the IC this game *shrug*
General perception in the site, he's been playing for a few years.

Who is snowbeast?

Lamees is wrong, Performer replaced Yuriko.
Snowbeast is the player who sheeped Lamees' reads and hopped on to my wagon placing it at L-1.

[Auro]

@Auro - who’s scummiest out of Volxen, Snowbeast, Not Mafia, Ariana.

I feel scum’s split up in there somewhere.

I think you’re wrong on one of NM/Ariana, but we can deal with that another time.

VOTE: Volxen

Ariane, he was ready to vote you, and he's been keeping you in his scumreads to now.
This is a case of him reaching consensus with a townread of his (me) instead of tunnelling onto a slot I didn't want lynched.
At that point I don't think anyone else was ready to lynch you, so it falls under b)
This is pro-town if you believe I'm town. It would've been less productive to keep a vote on you IMO.

You don't need to be voting your top scumread always.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ion#Myth_5
Read Myth 5 in that URL, tell me if you can see where I'm going. If you agree that it's a pro-town move.

[Auro]

@Ariane: Why do you think you'd possibly be lunched?
Performer was the only vote on you and he backed down later.
Snow has far more reasons than OMGUS/PoE to be today's lunch.
It's dessert day today.

@Lamees: Which wagon?

[Auro]

@Auro I respectfully disagree. This was three days ago. Plenty of time to try to gathr a wagon on me. he didn't

loads of time before a lunch

He

could

try to gather a wagon on you, but only on PoE without a solid case.
Think about it, would Flavor want to build a wagon on a slot that his townread strongly townreads, on a weak PoE case that I would actively be fighting against?

Different angle - Would you have given him more town points if he actually attempted to wagon you?
1. I'd defend you and take your side
2. You'd continue voting him
3. He probably becomes the counter-wagon
4. Reduces to a lunch between both of you

Scum OR town, it was in his interests to avoid that *unless* he could make a strong case independent of PoE enough to override the townreads on you / gather votes from the rest of the slots, neither of which seemed pretty likely. He never stated he has a strong scumcase on you.

Therefore scumreading him off the basis of his refusal to vote you is, IMO, incorrect.

[Auro]

I'm a bit hammered

Ariane predicting the future

[Auro]

snowbeast (L-2)

: Auro, lionheart1492, Performer

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, volxen

Auro (L-4)

: snowbeast

Lamees (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

Lamees, Flavor Leaf

Ariane's soft-tunnel on you strikes me as towny though, I feel scum!Ariane would've quickly gauged the gamestate and gone on to sheep our Volx-vote. *Shrug*

Nope.

[Auro]

I quoted myself saying your tunnelling made you more towny to me.
You're not death-tunnelling Flavor here (If I'm using the term right), you're ready to vote Snowbeast too.
I think the only point of disagreement in our reads is the treatment of Flavor's slot, which I'm placing at null and you're scumreading, but that's fine.

Him wagoning and committing to it could also come from town!Flavor, as you admit, and is in scum!Flavor's range. It could very easily be scum!Flavor pushing a mislunch, and I really don't think you would've townread and removed your vote off him in that case.

Scum!Flavor wouldn't want to push you, town!Flavor wouldn't want to push you.
Therefore that he didn't push you is itself NAI, yes?

[Auro]

also, Auro, I think yr overestimating the townreads on me, both at this time and at that time

I don't think I'm anywhere near as solid a tr as you're making me out to be

All subject to revision
I was mostly townreading then because we had similar thoughts.
Your behaviour after that struck me as towny sometimes.
I'm also finding it easy to work with you compared to other players.

*Shrug*

[Auro]

@Ariane:
If you have thoughts about the other slots, I'm ready to hear!

I'd like to know on what basis you'd evaluate Lamees, because I honestly don't know if I can.
She was the most prominent on my wagon AFAIR and wasn't engaging properly - just one blanket statement after the other without anything specific. Then she goes on to call Flavor's unvote on me "scummiest in history", and then nearly death-tunnels Not_Mafia and continues to do so. All this while posting stuff like "I take full responsibility", etc. So how would you go about sorting her?

Oh haha I've an open mind, which part do you think I'm being stubborn on? I'm all ears.
Eh regardless of global townreads, you weren't the most lynchy candidate anyway.

You wouldn't be the only one defending yourself
Hmm at that point, what do you think would've been the best basis for a case on you?

[Auro]

Oh I'll remind you I haven't sorted Flavor Leaf yet, he's null to me. I'll evaluate better as the game progresses.

[Auro]

15 hours we have to grab our lunch.

Vote!

[Auro]

Can I turn the q back on you Auro? Actually I dunno if I'd bother, I don't need you to strengthen my tr on you atm

I'm being scumread to an extent by at least 3 slots, one assumed conftown tho.
Depending on the gamestate I think a mislunch on me *can* be pulled off somehow, considering I got to L-1 at least.
Only if my D2 lunch-Lamees plan fails, of course.

[Auro]

It's important Snowbeast has time to claim.
Not_Mafia might quickhammer anyway, so state intent to L-1 and let him.
Tracker's never a lone PR so he might be the other, so just in case.

@Lion: Oh no you caught us

[Auro]

PM me about what kinda avatar you want, I'll help out!

You seem to be correct about Volxen, look at his signature. If Snow claims we won't have enough time for a different lynch though, that's slightly bothering me -- we'll probably just have to go through.

[Auro]

snowbeast (L-2)

: Auro, lionheart1492, Performer

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, volxen

Auro (L-4)

: snowbeast

Lamees (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

Lamees, Flavor Leaf

This is fifth game overall, three completed. I think my tone is just my style, maybe because I'm not too much an emotive player?

I was town with Ariane in a game that recently got completed, we didn't interact tho -- D1 quickhammer and she was the nightkill.

[Auro]

Pedit: *My* fifth game, sorry - also I do really hope I wasn't wrong about Lion joking xD

[Auro]

can we not have a no lynch??

Just making sure, this was in the sense of "Can we not have have a no lynch, vote already", right?
Not "Is no-lynch a viable option?".

[Auro]

Lamees is 120% scum, I don't care for the flip

[Auro]

and it's not like town would want a claim. What would be the scum motivation for allowing a partner to claim? yr not making sense.

"Oh gosh, where's my partner? Why isn't he coming online to claim Neapol? Then it'll be Volxen vs him unless someone else CCs. Either we can get Volxen last minute lunhed, a no lunch, or out the other CC."