Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Enter]

Hey guys! I'll get to reading the game thread ASAP! I'll just start going through the first page and....

Spoiler:

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

I dont think this is odd, I want to see some stuff from the other less active players, what did you find odd about this? why did it peak your interest?

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

There wan't any real purpose other than to spark some form of discussion, which it now appears to have done

Yeah but then you just killed the discussion by saying that was it's purpose. You have to string out those kinds of plays if you want it to get something moving.

VOTE: Munchmellow

For not reading my IC post yet.

VOTE: Muh316

O_O

Alright. That happened.

[Enter]

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Glad to know you think you're town...

even though you are fascist scum

only when playing secret hitler

I like you now, im adding you, I played a game where someone who was not hitler indicated they were at the beginning because they are dumb and all the fascists outed themselves when she was elected. was funny.

Nice flip out of nowhere.

if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me.

please don't say this. the first game of forum mafia i played someone said this. i came back half a day later to 9 pages of pointless discussion that basically destroyed the game

Thespio is correct that it's better to lynch than NL day1. But I don't like how he brought it up. It was out of the blue and looks like an attempt to declare his own towniness.

Looks like scum to you, but where's your vote?

On the guy that self-voted in RVS?

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Thespio's lone vote isn't likely to mean much, but he's right. Her level of activity is unacceptable.

Thespio did something that looked scummy but you didn't vote him. She does nothing => null, but gets your vote?

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgoJ2AeUkAo

you change your mind
like a girl
changes clothes

Do you really feel it's double bussing? And why?

seconded

I was just playing devil's advocate on that one to see if someone was going to jump on it. I'm getting a good townread on Loopdan though. It looks like he's giving us game advancing content which is nice. It's generally towny if someone is going through the effort of reading metas.

Also, now that we've had a bit of an icebreaker UNVOTE: muh316

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Don't you think a policy lynch on an inactive player D1 will get us less information and we'll be in the same spot as we were D1?

I wouldn't be afraid to put that vote somewhere. Thespio and Loopdan are both good choices, cuz the mod will write in RED when they flip.

[Enter]

VOTE: Loopdan

[Enter]

Skellen reads town, though.
Elements also reads ... fine.
Thespio is full of words that mean barely anything w/ no vote and his "change of heart" on elements is weird.
Loopdan reads red.

[Enter]

Mod Notes

Please welcome Enter!

much effort was made to avoid punning

Enter has entered the game (I'm so sorry)

I love you guys. Here's my own:

[Enter replacement]

This "fluff" is what also makes me about Thespio, but at this point it could as well have been a method to get the game started.
You mean he slipped out in #84 that he is scum? I might missing it, but what exactly do you mean?

How come btw that you are addressing me of all people?

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

2);

How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

PvtUrist is town.

[Enter]

Here's why Loopdan is scum (just a few of the reasons, there's a lot):


1. Loopdans' vote has changed like six times on six pages. That's actually ridiculous and insane for a game where nothing has happened.
2.

if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me.

please don't say this. the first game of forum mafia i played someone said this. i came back half a day later to 9 pages of pointless discussion that basically destroyed the game

Thespio is correct that it's better to lynch than NL day1. But I don't like how he brought it up. It was out of the blue and looks like an attempt to declare his own towniness.

With Loopdans vote changing like the weather in Texas, this is the one of the few times he ACTUALLY has an even close to scum read, and his vote doesn't follow. This is weird on Thespio, specifically, because I'm scumreading Thespio because of Thespio's own actions in addition to his interactions with Loopdan which all seem more fake than soy milk. (no offense to soy)
3.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Loopdan agrees and says "thanks, I agree, I am town" no explanation, but asks one of the other players to explain his post on Thespio. Here's why that's weird:
a) He didn't do it himself
b) Scum LOVE to know what town thinks of their scum buddies
c) His last post called Thespio as scummy
d) His "just curious about your thinking" is so noncommittal.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

This is so ridiculous I ran out of words the moment I started.
We are 6 pages into the game and he has ONE read? How does that happen? How does everyone else have more reads than him?
This is very noncommittal. He doesn't even accept responsibility for his vote.

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

"Look at me, I'm town because I share information on how mafia works"

Actually so many of his posts are like this.

For anyone wondering why noncommittal is bad:

Scum don't want to commit to something or look wishy washy on their reads because they want to keep the lynch open in case they need to hammer. They don't want to accidentally strong town read someone when everyone else is scumreading them because then it looks weird when they have to turn around and hammer.

SO. Long story short:

Thespio's posts amount to
1. hypocrisy (asking to explain when not explaining himself, on the first page when he jumps elements for changing his vote and then immediately changes his vote when Thespio says it's ok to do as town)
2. talk about mafia in theory/ meta to look like he's talking about something
3. Vote moving around like crazy
4. REALLY awkward interactions w/ Thespio that amount to nothing for either of them (even though they try to look like they push each other a little)
5. Sheeping his townread (what even? this is DAY 1. Push someone. Try to get scum reads since you don't have ANY)
6. noncommittal reads (How do you not have ANY SCUM READS and ONLY ONE town read?)

I could go on. The thing I quoted on page one also was weird. I could talk more about his weird interactions w/ Thespio. And there's probably even more.

In addition, even if he's not scum, we should policy lynch him for the octuple-post on page four. What even is that.

[Enter]

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

Like the fact that these two posts are right next to each other is insane.

"Post, ask questions, find scum"
"I have no clue who scum are, so I'm going to sheep my only town read"

[Enter]

@Enter - TvT was referencing Loopdan vs. Skellen. Sorry you wasted so many words but you need to reread those interactions.

That's my point, dude. YOU ARE loopdan. Thespio says "I think this is TvT" referencing you and skellen. And you say "I agree"

My point is: glad to know you're town.

And the thing about Thespio doesn't matter. You said:

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

So you're either asking for why are they townreading Thespio (who you JUST scumread) or why are they townreading you (which you should agree with anyways).

I didn't misread anything. There's only two options here, and the Thespio thing makes more sense to me (that you just misunderstood what they were saying about TvT or TvS.

And I said that you changed your vote "LIKE" six times. FOUR on six pages is STILL ridiculous, considering especially how d1 went over and the last day. Stop trying to hide behind technicalities.

[Enter]

Especially the WAY you flip your vote (and also didn't place it) when voting Thespio.

[Enter]

You aren't reading very closely. I've voted four times. You must be including Element's two votes that I quoted in 18. But even if it had been six times. So what? Are you arguing that it's more likely that I'm scum throwing out these votes to try and see what will stick, than I am town trying to sort players through discussion and pressure? Explain why vote changes like mine are scummy. You don't get to just declare something is scummy and have everyone believe you.

I've put far more explanation into my single vote on you than you have on all four of your votes combined.
Your vote changing four times in six pages is still wildly ridiculous considering one of them was on an inactive player, one was a SHEEP vote, and two were in RVS. This is what I mean by your play is hypocritical - you say one thing (asking me for more info on my vote) and do another (don't provide reads w/ your vote).
ALSO your vote changing four times in six pages is still wildly ridiculous considering you don't have a SINGLE scum read and you have ONE strong town read. Almost every other player in THE GAME has contributed more than you have.

I'm saying your vote changing so much is indicative of you not knowing who on earth you should vote and trying to find a wagon where it will stick. Especially w/ no reads in the process. To call it fence-sitting would be an understatement.

You are conflating me saying that I don't like how Thespio brought up the "lynch me before no-lynch" thing with me thinking he is scum. That's not how that works.

So, as I said, (and you accuse me of not reading closely), you saying you don't like it and not putting your vote on him is wrong.

I would feel your constant vote change is MORE acceptable if you had maybe put your vote on him here, because this is one of THE ONLY TIMES IN THE GAME where you give reasoning for thinking someone might be scum. ACTUALLY THE CLOSEST YOU'VE GOT TO A SCUM READ and your vote doesn't change to him? WHY?

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

You entirely missed this. TvT was Loopdan v Skellen. But now I see why you missed it because I wrote Thespio instead of Skellen when I asked Munch about it.

You last point was about me being noncommittal. OK. It's page six. I found one strong townread and that's pretty good progress. Contrary to what you seem to think you are doing here, you don't solve the game on page six.

Oh. I guess there was the third option, that it was about Skellen. Seems a bit like a freudian slip, tho.

You being noncommittal after asking town to be scumhunting is disgusting. You not having any scum reads on page six and SHEEPING your townread is dumb. It's PAGE SIX you should be scumhunting. Your vote should be wherever you think the player is the most scummy. You don't sheep unless you have no clue where scum are and you think that trying to talk about it would derail a current conversation and even then you said he was at L-2 (which to me implies you want him lynched). Who even brings up L-2? I guess it's fair to do, it just looks REALLY weird.

Anyways, it's PAGE SIX and I haven't seen you scumhunt at all in any form of acceptable manner. You even swapped votes in RVS after asking elements why he swapped votes in RVS (implying it looks weird to you). You even voted a LURKER which gets you nowhere. The one big time I remember you calling out someone for being scummy, YOU DON'T PLACE YOUR VOTE. Please, find another time you called someone scummy, that just makes it worse. You're saying things look weird/off to you and then voting for lurkers and sheeping your one town read.


======


can we just talk for a minute about how wild and bad it is to be sheeping? Especially in a newbie game, ESPECIALLY as IC, ESPECIALLY ON PAGE SIX when you have NO IDEA WHO SCUM ARE. If you don't know, please try and find them. If you have nothing on page six as IC that's a bad sign and you should be asking people why they have stronger reads than you do.

Also, what is your experience playing Mafia?

I played off site from about 2012-2014. Onsite in 2014, onsite in 2016, onsite in 2018. What's yours.

[Enter]

@Loopdan

If you don't know where to look, what to ask, what to do, feel free to ask a player.

They know what to do apparently.

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

This is A GREAT question for someone who looks like they're trying to avoid playing the game by talking about the theory behind it.

[Enter]

Stop misrepresenting my play.

1. Four votes on six pages is

not

ridiculous, especially at the start of the game. For you to use this as part of your case is absurd.
2. I'm not going to argue with you over whether four is "like six," but the way you just doubled-down on using this as proof that I'm scum seems indicative of how you are trying to force a case on me rather than develop a genuine read.

Lol. If you think your four votes aren't ridiculous, that's you. The way you voted was dumb. The way you haven't offered a reason for anything is dumb. The way you just say "misrep" and other big words to look smart when we both know I'm not misrepping anything is dumb. For you to take the fact that I said you used four votes in six pages as ridiculous and just IGNORED the part about how you haven't offered a good reason for any of them is dumb. The fact that you regularly ask for people to go in depth and explain and the only "explaining' you've done is point out that MS has a wiki and you're capable of using it in a string of eight posts (which is beyond ridiculous) is dumb. The fact that you keep ignoring and failing to quote large important parts of my posts and cherry picking and taking the parts you want to address out of their context is dumb. The fact that you do all of this while accusing ME of misrepping is dumb.

I could go on and on.
Your play is ridiculously suboptimal for town and you have no excuse as an IC to have NO READS on page six and be SHEEPING your townread. In regular games do you know how fast you get lynched for that? It's possible mafia has changed since I played a while ago, but sheeping is pretty much always looked down upon and VERY RARELY acceptable. I have personally NEVER seen an acceptable reason to sheep and the fact that you call yourself out on it is BAFFLING to me.

There is no way in my mind that I can justify you being town.

Let's pretend you are town for a second. Why are you playing defensive as crap right here? PLEASE OMGUS MORE. You're making literally every newbie mistake if you are town (which I do not believe in the slightest). If you were town as an even somewhat seasoned mafia player, you would at the VERY LEAST try to prove your town when you got called out for sheeping and AT LEAST post a reads list with one or two reasons.

The fact that you have as many posts as you do w/ so little content is insane.

So this is the only insightful thing Enter has said about my play, so I'll be glad to explain it. I liked Thespio's entrance to the game and didn't have any problems with him until that one post talking about no-lynch. Do you know how often town players make scummy sounding posts? I don't vote every single time I see one, sorry. Especially not with a newer player who has, let's just say it, kinda an odd style. And I don't think voting Thespio there would have helped me sort alignment when we had already established a conversational rapport. 76 is the post in question here. If anybody wants to see my train of thought, go back and check my next few posts after that.

This is an excuse. Also stop only quoting one or two of my points and then saying "THIS IS THE ONLY THING ENTER IS SAYING. LOOK AT THIS GUYS, DON'T ACTUALLY READ HIS POST."

Whatever. Let me get this straight though.

You are SCARED (in the first four pages of the game) of putting your vote someone who MIGHT BE TOWN. Because town sometimes makes scummy posts? You see someone post something that pings you as off, and you don't investigate? You just say "hmm, this pings me as off" and then follow-up to townread him almost immediately after? In a game where you don't have ANY SCUM READS you just continuously justify your lack of a vote on someone who posted something that looked scummy to you because they MIGHT BE TOWN. You are currently voting someone you DO NOT HAVE A SCUM READ ON, but you wouldn't vote for someone that looked scummy to you because they MIGHT BE TOWN? What happened to scumhunting and pushing your reads? How did you make that AWFUL vote flip in RVS after accusing elements of making a bad vote flip and yet you still won't flip your vote to the ONE PLAYER that you scumread. How is this logical in any form or fashion? I fail to follow any towny train of thought coming from this play. Your post here sounds more like you're defending Thespio as town than it does that you're defending your thought process.

And for people who want to meta me (which I recommend against, it's very rarely useful, at least for me) my other usernames are Tr1ckster and Extrapolated Eagle.

[Enter]

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Yes, it is. Because you're not using your vote when you see someone scummy, you're just sheeping your town reads. What even is that?

How do you have a standard for someone else you can't maintain yourself?

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

This is OMGUS and you know it. Post a reads list please. Give at least one solid reason for at least three of them. I know it's been hard for you to find a reason to vote someone this game that wasn't "RVS" or "isn't playing right now" but I need you to pull through for me. I honestly don't care too much what the reason even is, make something up. I'm just gonna look at it closely when you flip scum.

And let's be clear on the four votes thing. The four votes is ridiculous not in and of itself, stop saying that's why I'm saying it's ridiculous. You're taking me out of context and that's absurd. Please address why you thought it was a great idea to flip your vote in RVS right after calling out elements for doing so. Please explain why you thought it was smart to flip your vote right after applying a "pressure" vote to the only lurker in the game.

And stop getting angry at me cuz I won't let you have control back. You and Thespio drove the game into silence by townreading everyone and forgiving everything you saw as "that player MIGHT BE TOWN" (you did this with Skellen, too) and then you blamed the lurkers for it(which is a p common newbie scum tactic from what I've seen, I might add). You won't push anyone for reads, you want to sit so squarely on the fence that it's beginning to dig a hole into your stomach.

[Enter]

Just so we are clear: Enter is trying to sell these three posts...

Spoiler: where I sheep my strongest TR and THEN encourage town to get more active while taking the blame for being lazy myself

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

....as

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

Yes. I am saying that. Just because you say
"oh hey, I'm lazy" or "oh hey, I'm scummy" doesn't excuse lazy/scummy play. It still means you're scum.
When you tell town to be looking for scum, YOU SHOULD BE DOING SO YOURSELF.

SET. AN. EXAMPLE. Sheeping is the utmost paragon example of laziness/lack of scumhunting in a mafia game. I challenge you to try to find a better example.

And no, challenging me on "free with vote" instead of "use your vote" to me it means the same thing. I don't care. Either way YOU ARE NOT USING YOUR VOTE.
TWO EXAMPLES in the posts you've quoted and the arguments you've made of holding town to a standard you yourself do not meet. => You do not meet the standard for town. => You are not town.

[Enter]

Ugh. I hate myself for doing this, but every time I go to go back to "view my posts" again I see another one of these inane comments. I guess I'll just close the tab after this one.

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Stop taking my words out of context. I'm saying you're scum for telling her to use your vote and you're not using yours.
[quote="In post 163, Loopdan"\]Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard[/quote]
Just out of curiosity:

Define tunneling/confbias for me and then explain how I, having just Entered (haha) the game thread, have become convinced by my own argument that I have not yet made?
Tunneling is an even worse excuse because you're implying that I've been seeing you as scum for a while (as far as the connotation is concerned).

Please at least call me scum and don't sit on the fence about it if you think I'm bad. (even though I walked in the game thread and all of a sudden we have two viable wagons and both of them are on scum)

[Enter]

I know, I'm the worst.

Alright, so Town, to answer the potential question of "Why is Loopdan making silly excuses that don't make sense in order to try and call Enter town while simultaneously implying he might be scum?" like in this post:

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

Really, there's two answers to that question:

1. He just saw a couple other players call me town, and he doesn't want to look weird by pushing me for the rest of the day and then last minute flipping so that he can hammer someone else, because that would look weird for him, so he's hoping someone else will call me scum so he can see me as a viable lynch, at which point he will likely place his vote on me (and possibly do it while "sheeping" someone else so he doesn't take responsibility for it )
2. Scum are often cautious about pushing for lynches on town. Often, I've found, they prefer to sit in the middle of the wagon, so no one points a finger at them when the player flips GREEN. So again, he's waiting for someone else to push on me so that he can follow-up and not have to take responsibility.

The fact that his vote is still on PvtUrist (who he said he didn't have a scumread on) and not on me (who he just said is Bad Town or Scum) is ridiculous.

[Enter]

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you pla

Try reading my posts all the way through. I answered your question.

[Enter]

Just wanted to put these next to each other:

Post a reads list please. Give at least one solid reason for at least three of them. I know it's been hard for you to find a reason to vote someone this game that wasn't "RVS" or "isn't playing right now" but I need you to pull through for me. I honestly don't care too much what the reason even is, make something up. I'm just gonna look at it closely when you flip scum.

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions.

But yeah, I don't think you really have a way out of this one. My only real request -which is the reason I asked you to post reads, but you've indicated (3? please don't yell at me for getting my numbers wrong again, I know how much they matter to you) times that you will not ever actually read the things I post - that you should at the very least fix yourself, post reads/read the actual thread.

Skellen

(and anyone else curious)
As to why he made post 125 as scum - You can watch a trend throughout the days if you go back and read through of him gradually getting more and more comfortable. He probably WAS actually reading people's posts and trying on day one, but town kept letting him get more and more comfortable until he could get away with just skimming posts, giving people a townread, and moving on with his life. You can see this in the whole "TvT debate" we had earlier, which likely looked like it was absolutely nothing, but the fact that he lost track of who he was even talking about and dropped a different name can be indicative of him beginning to slip on his attempts to look towny. I think by the time he got to 125 (especially in a slow game where it feels like you're winning, it's easier to begin to slip on things), he felt like he was in complete control of the game (it certainly looked like he was). That's part of why the post following the one that made him look so scummy is so very damning. Town has time/scum has information. As days go on w/ less posting/less information/less looking like control of a lynch, scum will get MORE comfortable while town will become less comfortable and begin to freak out. I think in a normal game where he'd been kept on his toes all game, he never would have made such a horrendous post, but the fact that he felt like he was in control and had no sense of danger is what makes him so condemned.

[Enter]

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

This is one example of what I'm talking about:

He REALLY means to be talking about Skellen here but he says Thespio. Sure, people make mistakes like this, but not when you actually want an answer to your question. If you're just thinking "I should post just to post," you're much more likely to make this mistake, but this is a Freudian slip, he wasn't actually thinking about Skellen, because none of that really matters to him.

The most interesting part is that NO ONE CALLED HIM ON IT and therefore he got even more comfortable. He probably wasn't thinking about it at all when he posted it, it was just a post to make a post, and once he made one like that and get away with it, he felt more comfortable applying himself less, so he didn't catch himself when he made scummier and scummier posts throughout the game thread.

Also, something you'll notice is that he seems to put a high value on reading other people's games and seeing what they're doing. I used to try to do this, I almost guarantee he will get close to nothing out of it, but it's a pretty decent excuse for him to stop digging a hole for himself. You'll notice that you probably started thinking he looks a little more towny after asking for that, and he's probably not even gonna come back with results.

He's also telling you that I'm not asking any questions for him, but aside from the fact that I have at least three times now (I think it's four?) specifically asked him to post his reads at a bare minimum, if someone calls you out for not posting reads, for not scumhunting, do you think the correct response is to get defensive or to begin scumhunting and posting reads?

[Enter]

A list of questions derived from my posts for you, @Loopdan (and some I came up with on the spot)

First and foremost, please define tunneling/confbias for me and explain to me how I am already convinced and blinded by reads I didn't even have when entering the game thread? I will almost be happy if you just explain this one at all because it will mean that you're not just using giant mafia words to sound like you know what you're talking about.

Why is your vote currently on PvtUrist?

Do you think sheeping is acceptable? If yes, provide circumstances/reasons.

If town has a time advantage over scum, but scum has an information advantage, why would you feel comfortable not scumhunting and instead sheeping someone else's vote?

Why were you thinking about Thespio when you posted asking why Skellen was town?

Why were you questioning why another player was town reading Skellen, when you had already said you were townreading her (and provided no information in the process)? Why in this process, did you take a noncommittal stance and imply you didn't particularly feel one way or another about skellen?

Why is your vote not currently on me, even though (according to you) my play is suboptimal as town and indicative of scum?

What do you hope to find my reading my meta?

In addition to this, please post a reads list.

[Enter]

I realize now that Loopdan may not have been able to recognize I had a question for him here because I screwed up the quote box and he can't read around it, so I fixed it.
Please still respond to this.

Ugh. I hate myself for doing this, but every time I go to go back to "view my posts" again I see another one of these inane comments. I guess I'll just close the tab after this one.

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Stop taking my words out of context. I'm saying you're scum for telling her to use your vote and you're not using yours.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard

Just out of curiosity:

Define tunneling/confbias for me and then explain how I, having just Entered (haha) the game thread, have become convinced by my own argument that I have not yet made?
Tunneling is an even worse excuse because you're implying that I've been seeing you as scum for a while (as far as the connotation is concerned).

Please at least call me scum and don't sit on the fence about it if you think I'm bad. (even though I walked in the game thread and all of a sudden we have two viable wagons and both of them are on scum)

[Enter]

1. I don't know you but I probably have around as much experience as you do. The fact that you don't know that shows you barely read my posts. Please actually read them and play mafia instead of being dismissive.

PvtUrist is town./

You and Loopdan are scum.

[Enter]

1. I don't know you but I probably have around as much experience as you do. The fact that you don't know that shows you barely read my posts. Please actually read them and play mafia instead of being dismissive.

PvtUrist is town./

You and Loopdan are scum.

I severely doubt you do, the fact you think offsite experience makes you on grounds with the meta here is silly. I’ve read your posts, what makes him town, explain what you think about his read on me.

This. Was. An. Alt. I have other accounts on here dating back to 2014. Read my posts and tehn I'll respond to yours.

[Enter]

Alright. Sorry for being a bit terse earlier, I was doing something else and it gets under my skin when people get all uppity and dismissive, especially in Mafia.

Thespio, you're being dumb. I said in a post earlier that I have two accounts dating back onsite in 2014 and 2016.

The fact that you straight up dismissed my posts to the point of not reading them because I was pointing fingers at you says a lot about you as an SE (if you're town for some reason.) The fact that you would just not read something because you thought "oh it's prolly just a newbie being a newbie so he doesn't know enough to make a good point and is just scared of people w/ more experience than him" isn't an attitude that should be reflected in SE play.

Now, let's get to this really crappy PvtUrist scum read you've got goin on here:

Reads(town to scum)
Loopdan- Loopdan is progressive in the game, pushes everything forward, I feel like their experience shows and they are getting flak for it. (@skellen, the reason why there are no skum reads for loopdan is because there isnt enough clash between the less active members, its one thing about newbie games that take place over holidays that suck. now is when im developing mine because people are actually posting)
Skellen- The clash and pressure they are misplacing on loopdan is genuine IMO, i wish they would redirect it.
(null)

Enter- I feel enter is missing the game, they havent really talked about anyone just pointed alot of fingers. both at an SE and IC, it comes across as a lack of trust in experience. I do think they are almost a town lead.
Elements- this one is shifting for me, in the RVS i was joking with them but i dont think they left this stage, im not getting a scum vibe but im getting a *I dont care* vibe. their posts dont actually lead to anything. I never thought they were scum at the beginning i was poking them to see a reaction, didnt really get one

Munchmellow/muh316- not enough posts
missdeadbeat-null, 1 post, hate players like this

(skum lean)

PvtUrist, PvtUrist, PvtUrist: look at their posts, dear god they tunneled me from the start, they are watching the game but not contributing, they arent progressing the game, they get on me for points that make no sense, they literally dont bring up anything that is even questionable, I understand why people thought Post 69 was susp it was an innocent gesture since 3 people were playing the game BUT PvtUrist didnt even care, they focused on me saying i would talk about girls (which i said as a joke because i was a single college kid when i played last and now I'm married), they then switch it to something utterly stupid again. The things i look for in scum are:
1- Inactivity
2- Accusations for reasons unknown
3- Avoiding confrontation

PvtUrist hits all of these, so PvtUrist here are my questions for you:
Explain why you think im scum
Explain why your reads on everyone else are so vaugue
How do you feel about the lack of activity
Why are you lurking

VOTE: PvtUrist
Would still like more from Deadbeat but they seem to have left the building....

@Enter give me your honest opinion about PvtUrist, also whats your lynch order at this point?

To address point 1:
Looperdan also has been in the game six pages without saying very much at all as far as the game is concerned. PvtUrist has MORE reads than he does. Why are you not questioning Looperdan?

point 2:
Looperdan has made 4 votes this game. Two with no reasoning (in RVS, which is fair), one on a lurker (which is a pretty common tactic for scum players), and one as a sheep vote to another town player. That was the extent of the reasoning he gave. PvtUrist has given more reasoning than that for his vote on you. Why are you not questioning Looperdan?

point 3:
Please point me to what posts of yours PvtUrist has avoided and where he's avoided confrontation. From what I've seen, his posts have been more indicative of town than almost anyone here. You and looperdan both have cherrypicked and avoided what I'm actually saying, you especially, by being dismissive of my experience (which in a newbie game is dumb and unacceptable).

Now, some questions of my own, for you:

1. Why are you so dismissive of the possibility that Loopdan could be scum?
2. Why are you ignoring and refusing to point any suspicion towards Loopdan?
3. Since when is pointing fingers (or pushing reads, as I call it) a bad idea?

I disagree with you on a lot of points. I think you've got a closed mind on how this game is going to run and that you're driving it into the ground with ideas like "everyone can be town" (not what you're saying, but what you're coming off as) "let's lynch the lurkers" and "we should policy lynch of no lynch d1." Whatever. Game theory doesn't matter and it's possible you're just town, I have a tendency to read these things (people disagreeing with me, playing in ways that I would argue are suboptimal) as scummy, even though they're definitely not as suboptimal as some of the things OTHER PEOPLE here have been doing. I just did a quick reread of you and I'm not as convinced you're scum. I think you pinged a bit when I was reading Loopdan and that caught me off-guard, but I'll maybe case you tomorrow or something.

If you are town, PvtUrist is a bad lynch right now. Please read through my loopdan case SERIOUSLY and respond.

[Enter]

@Thespio

This is more scumhunting than Dan has done all game. I challenge you to find a post of Dans that competes w/ this in any way shape or form.

My reads are lame so here's a few questions;

@Skellen ignoring the 2 inactive players, who do you feel to be the scummiest/towniest right now? How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

It would certainly be convenient if the

lurking scums

inactive players decided to show up.

This is more reads and more thought than anything Loopdan has at the moment.

Read update;

{Urist} conf town
{Skellen, Loopdan} lean town
{Elements} null town
{Enter, MissDeadbeat, Munchmellow, muh316} null
{Thespio} null scum

Skellen; Loopdan explains how I feel about him/her well in 126

Loopdan; ISO reads town

Elements; felt town from first read, but I guess there wasn't as much content in his posts than I previously thought they did.

Enter; feeling null, interested in where he reads Loopdan as red.

MDb/Munch; would appreciate a few more posts from either of them.

muh316; null right now

Thespio;

isn't talking about girls=scum

safely parks vote on inactive player rather than engaging with the more active players

In addition, PvtUrist is pushing his scumread (you) and his reason makes sense (you're pushing lurkers, bro, that's dumb. Stop doing it.) Also he has a reason. Unlike Loopdan.

[Enter]

Ok m8 lets go over this, putting aside that you think offsite experience makes you a master of the meta on a completely other site, and flipping out because you dont think anyone is reading your posts (which we are), there is nothing in what you are posting that isnt just you repeating yourself. You think its loopdan so you post 4 things about why you think its loopdan but they are all the same reason. You think its me and you make a page long post about how its me but is mostly just quotes and you playing WIFOM. You also seem to get arrogant over lurkers, why would town be INTENTIONALLY LURKING as Pvt has? who is that helping? he even acknowledged he was and said its just because hes lazy. WHY DO YOU BUY THAT?

Now another thing, why is pvts case against me better then any speculation loopdan has made?
Lets follow his actions:
Post 10: RVS on me
Post 71: Thinks its sketchy i had banter with elements. which you should see as me interacting with town since you are so dug in on loopdan and I.
Post 110: Pvt calling me as scum slipping because i made a joke about how as a college kid playing with other college kids in my college we talked about girls and I asked a female in game a question.

EXPLAIN WHY THIS MAKES ANY SENSE

Post 111: Puts me as scum with no reason beyond the prior
Post 112: asks skellen a decent question, believes its be for the reason in post 110
Post 132: pushes me for the same reason in post 110
Post 133: filler
Post 134: States he is lurking intentionally
Post 136: Changes his reason for it being me to trying to get activity out of less active players, also thinks im not engaging with active players. Which I was, ive posted more then him most of which was town hunting and establishing who i think is town

So heres my questions, why do you think pushing a joke makes him town? why do you think 9 posts, 1 filler, 7 pushing a joke, 1 a change from joke to policy, are somehow helping us here? If you think hes town defend his reasoning. to me it looks like he is trying to get his rvs vote lynched, never met a townie who has played like that.

Alright m8, putting aside that I've been on this site since 2014 under different usernames, you just don't happen to actually read what I'm saying (which you aren't, cuz this is the third time I've said this).
You're making a shit ton of bold claims there and you won't even acknowledge or respond to what my points (yes points plural, it's not just me repeating myself, I think you think skimming = reading) against loopdan are. Why not respond to them?
I've seen town lurk a million times before and I'm going to see town lurk a million times again. From here, PvtUrist doesn't even look bad because he at least contributes to a game thread.
His vote was on you, you didn't do anything, he prolly had a legitimate scum read on you (but it was only gut until you started actually pushing lurkers). You've looked like shit for town all game. Let's look at your loopdan posts, though.

Spoiler:

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

Wait. I thought you were joking about the scum slip thing in 110. You serious?

1. Loopdans' vote has changed like six times on six pages. That's actually ridiculous and insane for a game where nothing has happened.

You aren't reading very closely. I've voted four times. You must be including Element's two votes that I quoted in 18. But even if it had been six times. So what? Are you arguing that it's more likely that I'm scum throwing out these votes to try and see what will stick, than I am town trying to sort players through discussion and pressure? Explain why vote changes like mine are scummy. You don't get to just declare something is scummy and have everyone believe you.

2. With Loopdans vote changing like the weather in Texas, this is the one of the few times he ACTUALLY has an even close to scum read, and his vote doesn't follow. This is weird on Thespio, specifically, because I'm scumreading Thespio because of Thespio's own actions in addition to his interactions with Loopdan which all seem more fake than soy milk. (no offense to soy)

You are conflating me saying that I don't like how Thespio brought up the "lynch me before no-lynch" thing with me thinking he is scum. That's not how that works.

3.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Loopdan agrees and says "thanks, I agree, I am town" no explanation, but asks one of the other players to explain his post on Thespio. Here's why that's weird:
a) He didn't do it himself
b) Scum LOVE to know what town thinks of their scum buddies
c) His last post called Thespio as scummy
d) His "just curious about your thinking" is so noncommittal.

You entirely missed this. TvT was Loopdan v Skellen. But now I see why you missed it because I wrote Thespio instead of Skellen when I asked Munch about it.

You last point was about me being noncommittal. OK. It's page six. I found one strong townread and that's pretty good progress. Contrary to what you seem to think you are doing here, you don't solve the game on page six.

Also, what is your experience playing Mafia?

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Someone needs to shake this game up.
We are still pretty much in RVS.

@Skellen - The tone wasn't intended to be ominous. It was just my way of making it seem like maybe I had an actual reason to scum-read you for your self-vote. Sometimes that leads to others jumping on the wagon, sometimes it leads to others screaming over and over that they demand an explanation of the unexplained vote, sometimes nothing really happens.

Skellen's post 56 is pretty good. I don't agree with everything he says, but his thinking is clear and he does look to be approaching this exchange from a mindset that wants to solve rather than lynch.

Skellen, you should be using your vote. I know you said you come from live games where a vote is final, but here you need to use it as a weapon. If nothing else, you should vote whoever appears scummiest. It allows for others to then build on those "wagons" with their votes and that's where pressure and sorting of alignments starts accelerating. You can always move your vote as your reads change.

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

all loopdan of the above are loopdan posts with more progression then all of pvts combined.

146 You're joking, right? Loopdan worries about the one thing he always does... how people are reading you.
145 is Loopdan being defensive, no intentional progression there, he doesn't even respond to everything I'm saying
147 Talking about game theory is not progression. Sometimes it's even distracting from something that's actually going on. You know who finds it easy to talk about game theory all game? Scum, because then they don't have to do things like give reads that will screw them over later
126 I'm not even going to begin w/ this. Not only do I fundamentally disagree w/ him (slower games are easier to go back and read and people seem to be legitimately scared of giving him a scumread due to him being IC), but he has a single town read and this is the only explanation he has given to this point. PvtUrist gives more explanation in his reads the post before.
92 Is Loopdan sitting on the fence and looks like he's retconning a read he just gave (which is super scummy to me), as well as dropping a Freudian slip that looks pretty condemning, IMO. He asks someone to explain a townread on a player he just said he had a townread on and gave no explanation for.
90 Is Loopdan asking someone else to do his job (as VT)
87 Is Loopdan defending his vote flip in RVS... defensiveness is not progression
59 Is Loopdan discussing game theory
18 Is Loopdan asking someone why they changed their vote in RVS (what was he expecting) and then later he berates him for answering his question

You're joking about this being more progression than what PU put out right? Did you even read what you linked me? I'm starting to think you just quoted everything with more than one line in it, but that's not true because Loopdan has been spamming the thread for six pages with game theory. A lot of the posts you quoted are the reason we were in a stagnate town to begin with. Every time someone got close to pushing reads, Loopdan would do that thing where he'd be like "You're prolly town." It looked to me like he was doing it so people would townread him. PvtUrist is maybe one of the only people impervious to that stuff.

And I hate to break it to you, dude, but you've been pinging MY scumdar since page 2, and PU ACTUALLY has a decent reason for voting you. You should stop w/ the OMGUS

[Enter]

And I hate to break it to you, dude, but you've been pinging MY scumdar since page 2, and PU ACTUALLY has a decent reason for voting you. You should stop w/ the OMGUS

Two things. if you are under an alt list your accounts. explain what point he has. thats it. then i will vote myself because of how toxicly bad you are at this game. you think pushing a joke is a serious development and you follow up with me saying we need to push lurkers as a condemnation. its cute but i dont think anyone here is reading it the same way, including pvt. im slipping you down, sr all the way. that or youre anti town. Im leaning scum because i want to hope someone with alts (playing a newbie game in a newbie slot) wouldnt be anti town.

The funny thing is I've already listed them. Sorry you want to play against your WINCON (which is against site rules), but if you'll help me lynch scum, sure.

My alts are Tr1ckster and Extrapolated Eagle. I'm not playing with an alt, this is my main account. I don't use either of those accounts anymore and haven't for some time.

PvtUrist's big solid reason for pushing you is that you're pushing lurkers => causing the game to run slow and grind to a halt. This is pretty common for scum.

Please vote yourself now.

This is intent to hammer in 8+ hours, after I see a significant number of people have responded

because I don't think this game is going very far after this. I honestly almost see this as game solved.

[Enter]

I have to leave for work now, but I will explain my scum read on Thespio in greater detail upon returning home and leave at least 3+ hours (prolly more, just to make sure people have responded) after posting it for responses and discussion. We have a significant amount of time in the day, so I will wait to hammer and we should address any concerns or discuss anything there is to be discussed prior to hammer. I do not see me v loopdan or me v thespio going any further, though, so waiting to hammer for the sake of waiting is dumb.

[Enter]

To be clear I was half joking about the "against site rules" thing. Yes, threatening to vote yourself seems wrong, but it's dumb. The acronym for what he's doing is called AtE (appeal to emotion) and if he actually voted himself, I doubt it would actually get him modkilled since he could say it's a gambit to get him unvoted.

[Enter]

Alright. So I've been pretty back and forth on my read for Thespio, which is why I've been really rather hoping to get a Loopdan lynch today so we can re-examine Thespio tomorrow.

The biggest part causing me to reconsider my scum read on him is how quickly the wagon formed. One thing that is often good to look at in mafia games is who is pushing what wagon and when. Day 1 wagons are often really quite hard to work up to a lynch, especially w/o scum. This is one reason why very often townies are lynched on day 1; scum controls a little over 20% of the vote and they both know who they want lynched - anyone but them. The Thespio wagon built pretty quickly after my arrival, which is somewhat surprising, since I didn't really push him at all. My thought is that town was looking for someone to push that wasn't a lurker, but was under the influence of loopdan/Thespio => didn't really want to try to solo push one of them against the crowd. So, considering Thespio is at a potential L-1 right now, let's look at who's on this wagon:

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

And for the sake of analysis, we'll consider Thespio's 193 as a self-vote.

Munchmellow doesn't have very many posts this game, but the ones she does have, I follow and share a thought process with. She suspects Loopdan in 70, reexamines her read and explains why Thespio feels off in 137 (which I agree with, BTW, the whole "self -vote" thing is a level of AtE that shouldn't be accomplished by anyone other than a newbie, IMO)
[BTW, Thespio, if you're reading this and you still think for some reason that Loopdan's 92 was serious, you should notice that Munchmellow responds as if he's asking about you and he still doesn't notice, which should trigger the thought in you that it's pretty apparent loopdan is asking questions to ask questions and has nothing he's looking for] Anyways. Munchmellow posts reads in 140 - which I agree with, and it makes me happy that it's a pretty full reads list. I feel pretty solid on Munchmellow for town.

Elements follows Munchmellow. ISO-ing him and one could easily see how you might think you're ISO-ing the same person. Again, I agree with his thoughts, his reservations on the whole self-vote thing, his questioning of double-bussing. I like him for town.

PvtUrist - This one is weird, because it does still feel, in the slightest way, a bit weird to me that he has maintained his vote on Thespio since game start. But. Here's why I think he's town: He was the first player to drop reads. Loopdan's vote on him is super weird and he avoids responsibility for his PvtUrist vote (which loopdan would WANT responsibility for PvtUrist flip if he was bussing his buddy). When PvtUrist did drop those questions in 112, they were pretty decent questions and indicate some small amount of town - motivation. Yes, my town read on him is weak. No, it doesn't matter, because my scum read on Loopdan is ridiculously strong, and there isn't two scum in [PvtUrist, Loopdan]

Finally, Thespio:
I disagree with the idea of lynching yourself. Let's start there. Yes I was ok with it when I started mafia, but I've grown and changed a lot, I think. You have a role-pm from the mod that says you're town. That is the largest confirmation you will get and the first piece to the logic puzzle that is mafia. (it's a little more than a logic puzzle, but bear with me). The only time you should ever be ok with yourself being lynched is never, IMO, because you should always be doing your best to be the largest asset to town when you're alive, and when you're dead, you have no control over the game. I have seen so many times where it looks like town has won because everything is set up perfectly and some charming mafia goon wins over the heart of the guy heading off his lynch and all of a sudden town loses in a 3p LyLo. Sure, at the end of day yesterday, everyone agreed that if you self-voted then they would lynch the mafia goon you were so certain should die if you flipped town, but people change. People's read change. A lot. Especially over night. However, I will not lynch based solely off the fact that people are willing to play sub-optimal town games in this way, because I'm pretty sure there are mafia players that will disagree with me on the self-vote being suboptimal. Whatever.

Let's get to the next issue: Self-vote threats: This is an entirely different matter because it is the lowest of low AtE. While talk of lynching yourself can be considered mafia theory, threatening to self-vote is a spastic response of emotion that belongs nowhere except every once in a while, from a newbie, in a newbie game. Then the threat should be squashed by the IC and everyone should move on with their lives, because it's bad. It is very bad. I view self-votes in mafia games like I view threats to wreck your own car because it would get attention. Will I lynch for it? Not always. Did it make me think he was almost definitely scum for a moment? Yes. This is one of the very few places that meta-ing someone does come in handy for me. When I see someone make dumb newbie mistakes like this, I go back and look at past games and see if they make the same mistakes in those games as town. So, let's see what we can find:

In Newbie 1640, Post 190 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

This helps no one. if you honestly got him lynched and he was town, then its likely a scum driven lynch and thus if you are town you will have scum backing as well. Ultimately you could both be town.

Indicating an understanding that self-flipping and threats of such are rarely reasonable.

And in Newbie 1625, Post 982 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

There kill last night is basically WIFOM. I think its odd you countered immediately... But I also think Jorams timely absence is quite mysterious too... So im lookin @ Jorams post about being investigated a possible scum slip. I also think Aku is lurking pretty badly... Anyone have any think aku might have used Bulba as a train after we all were questioning him?

Again indicating how much WIFOM surrounds a kill. Sure, he's talking about a night kill here, but the point is across that once you're dead, you're not as effective and it is so easy to WIFOM everything out. Even if PvtUrist was scum, day 2 when we tried to lynch him, he would start explaining everything for Thespio and Thespio wouldn't be there to correct him. I've seen it so much, and Thespio seems to understand this, too, which makes me think he's prolly scum, using AtE.

Up until this point, I had been doubting my read on Thespio, but the threats to self-vote is so bad and talk of self-lynch over no-lynch is so bad, I don't think I can fathom him flipping town.

In addition he had some weird interactions at beginning of day, his teasing flip w/ his read on elements was weird, and his pushing of lurkers is bad. I also don't like how he dismissed the Skellen v Loopdan as TvT and Loopdan chimed in. Anyways, I'm super distracted right now, so I will get back to this later, but as of right now, I feel pretty solid on my scum read on Thespio.

[Enter]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

That's fair, I have no intent of hammering while there's valid discussion going on.

[Enter]

If you legitimately read and respond and try to understand where I'm coming from on my read of you, I'll do my best to continue to do the same for you.

[Enter]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

That's fair, I have no intent of hammering while there's valid discussion going on.

Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot), Pvts still is my main scum read, I understand your reasoning (if im scum and he started on me me why would he leave) I would like more from him. After this I would say i TR you. ill post a reply to all of it in about 2 hours.

Yeah sure. It's mafia, dude, I understand. What happens in game, stays in game. I'm a bit antagonistic myself, but with purpose. I understand you wanting to see more from him, I wouldn't mind more myself. I do see town motivation in a few of his posts, however, and I don't see that in Loopdan, and due to Loopdan's (I think it was 125?) I don't think PvtUrist and Loopdan can both be scum => PvtUrist is town.

[Enter]

So usually when the thread is moving really fast people are more likely to skim than actually read - this is especially true when I accuse people of being scum => I try to say the same thing multiple times because I want that point addressed and I feel it hasn't yet. A lot of the time people will pick what they want to respond to and then at a later time when things are calmed down, I will try and summarize my reads and give a solid TL;DR. I honestly feel like the worst part of my posts is that I post it as I think it almost -I have to otherwise I can't think through it or understand it like I'd like to. I've got a bad habit of explaining everything to everyone because that's how I ensure that it also makes sense to me. I guess I feel as if I'm incapable of examining my own thoughts unless I can see them in front of me or hear them in my discussion with someone else, and since the latter is not allowed in mafia games, I stick to the former. Once the thread has settled a bit, I'll try to get a more summarized version (the problem with mafia is that it's so easy to take something the wrong way or say someone means something they don't mean, so I feel like I have to provide context to everything. This is a particular flaw of mine, I apologize that I'm not good at transferring my thoughts like I should be.)

[Enter]

I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again:

I understand distancing and bussing. I've played with people that exclusively bus. I've been scum when my partner said "it sucks to be you, but I exclusively bus day 1" (that was offsite)

This isn't that.

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

He refuses responsibility for PvtUrist's flip. The big two reasons scum bus is for town!cred or to avoid getting scum!cred. He gets no town!cred if he takes no responsibility for his vote. He knows PvtUrist will flip town and he doesn't want to be looked at as a guy who's pushing the wagon.

These games are from years ago, ive changed, i understand personal loss for general gain, I became a stockbroker, got a job with the govt, learning to play losses is important, and I didnt understand it then, read my more recent games.

Anndd this is why I don't like meta-ing people. I still disagree with you, but as long as you're not disagreeing with yourself this isn't a point of contention and I really would rather not worry about it right now, because it's distracting.

As far as where we go from here, I want very strongly to lynch Loopdan today. I don't want to lynch you right now. I can try and re-summarize my loopdan argument, but I feel what you want are specifics, and if I give you specifics you'll just end up with a post wall that is larger than the sum of the ones I posted earlier, so I highly recommend you read that more carefully if/when you get the chance (if you haven't already)


===============================================

Some things I'd like you to examine, taken this is your reason for TRing Loopdan:

Ive leaned town on him for a while, The reason I like loopdan is I read him town after his spat, it genuinely seemed TvT.

1. After the spat, he's quick to call himself town (as well as the other person). He's so quick to avoid that turning into a real confrontation. If he really believed it was TvT, why didn't he say so sooner? His flip was awkward.
2. The whole spat was weird. Skellen called out Loopdan for doing dumb stuff, Loopdan got evasive and explained why he did the stuff he did (which is exactly what he told elements NOT to do only a few posts before).
3. Look at his 109 in contrast with his 54. He admits that pushing lurkers is dumb and then he pushes a lurker later.
4. Look at his 58 and 59 in contrast to his 92. He accidentally gives out a town read and then implies he will retcon it.

[Enter]

Oh also

I find this interesting, do you think Loopdan to some degree has aligned with me for favor? it does look like he defends me to some degree. I still want more, an active town is a happy town, but I lean town after reexamining them.

You two have really weird interactions. I do not like your interactions. I don't like how he was really willing to change his vote so quickly in RVS and from 109 to 125 but he wouldn't put his vote on you when he didn't like what you said.

[Enter]

Greetings all. I'm at work right now and need to read the thread a bit deeper (especially regarding the Loopdan stuff going on), but here's a question to buy a little time for that so this slot isn't totally useless.

Enter, why do you think Loopdan's vote on Ptv isn't distancing/bussing? You seem to know exactly what that looks like, and I want to know exactly why you think its unlikely here.

*deep breath*

Check out my 212, it's six posts above yours. Also my 201 says the same thing. If you have specific questions about that, feel free to ask.

@Thespio: I'm working on PoE as far as who Loopdan's partner is right now, I'm not ignoring you.

[Enter]

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

@Skellen - I'll agree that PvtUrist is lurker-y. The thing with lurkers is that scum!lurking often looks like town!lurking from what I've seen. Your read seems like you're applying your thoughts to his absence, and while I agree with that process, I would ask you this: Considering cases against Loopdan and PvtUrist, which appears scummier to you, and why? If you townread Loopdan, please explain in depth. I understand that PvtUrist doesn't look like an example of town, but from my perspective it looks like you're projecting your own reasoning on his absence (which isn't necessarily wrong, it just might sway your read further towards scum or town than you wanted to.) Since most of my points against Loopdan are relatively concrete (as far as I'm aware), and I doubt they could be scum together, I doubt PvtUrist is scum. I would really like to hear your opinions on this.

[Enter]

As far as Loopdan's partner, let's examine the possibilities:

1. PvtUrist: Loopdan doesn't take responsibility for his vote, like he should if he knew PvtUrist was flipping scum. => I think PvtUrist is pretty much conftown when Loopdan flips scum
2. Skellen: Skellen reads like town to me. 125 makes them look town, I think. I think it's pretty rare for scum to call other scum hard town read without other townies agreeing, also the debate at the beginning makes me think it's TvS => Skellen is town.
3. muh316: Kinda weird vote from Loopdan in RVS. Also second one to jump on Loopdan after I came in, and continued to press. Looks kinda town to me (although there really isn't much interaction between them, muh316 calls out Loopdan, Loopdan says "later" :/ ).
4. Munchmellow: Again, not a lot of interactions outside an RVS vote from Loopdan. She's placed suspicion on him before. Reading her as pretty town-y.
5. elements: Weird interaction between elements and Loopdan on Loopdan's side, again. :/ And again, we see another case of elements calling him out for being weird.

You might begin to be seeing a pattern here. Everyone here has called Loopdan out for weird things. I think most of the people in this group are less likely to be his partner than the other two, but it's pretty hard. Elements, for example, could easily be just following other people's example by calling out Loopdan out for his weirdness. If I had to pick a name out of this list on the spot, it would prolly be elements based on the fact that Loopdan didn't vote him when elements made a weird move w/ his votes, even though he did vote muh316. Although that might point more towards muh316, as it seems to me that Loopdan is more scared of pushing a wagon on town.
====

6. Thespio: weird interactions w/ Loopdan. One of the only people to not call him out for weird stuff in the game thread.
7. MissDeadbeat/MagikHorse: Actually nothing this game. Loopdan was awful quick to get his vote off MissDeadbeat. This signals to me that she's the most likely here to be scum. In addition, he took full responsibility for his vote on her. My suspicion is that he saw Thespio vote her, thought to himself "Oh crap better bus her, it's maybe over for her" and then swapped to PvtUrist once he saw a way out.

My conclusion: Of every player here, I would really like to see more from MagikHorse (and if I don't, I will be a very big fan of their lynch on day 2).

@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?

I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

[Enter]

Got too distracted so I am keeping it short. Since he is the other hot topic in the vote count at the moment it's next to Thespio. Regarding him I am a little bit indecisive. Rethinking his play yesterday made him suspicious in my eyes, his defence is a mixed bag for me now. I think his reads seem comprehensible from his point of view, but then right after that he defends Loopdan twice with pitting him against PvtUrist. Ugh. Why even doing someone else's job? I think Loopdan did even the same with Thespio? If these two are the scum team it's more turning into a slapstick team. This is actually fuel for Enter's original scumteam Loopdan/Thespio theory, although

it's becoming so obvious that I just can't believe it can be that easy.

Otherwise his defence is rather predictable, I mean I share his suspicion of PvtUrist, but I was hoping his opinion of Loopdan would be a little bit more ambitious as I kind of hinted yesterday. However now his opinion seems to change, I am not sure how to interpret that. Either he is really questioning him more or it's the last effort to burn some bridges between him and Loopdan, although I might think it's almost too late for that. Guess it will also depends now too what Loopdan's next move is and where Thespio's new read is leading to.

There should be a "like" button for mafia. Bolded is why I'm spending so long trying to reconsider.

[Enter]

In post 223, Thespio wrote:
@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?


I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

Ok if I flip town who do you lynch?

Im rereading the game in between work (going very slow) just want to establish your PoE

If you flip town considering what?

We lynch you day 1: No matter what you flip, I flip Loopdan tomorrow.
We lynch Loopdan day 1: He flips scum, we re-examine. I've shared my thoughts on this. He flips town, I seriously reconsider PvtUrist

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

@Skellen - I'll agree that PvtUrist is lurker-y. The thing with lurkers is that scum!lurking often looks like town!lurking from what I've seen. Your read seems like you're applying your thoughts to his absence, and while I agree with that process, I would ask you this: Considering cases against Loopdan and PvtUrist, which appears scummier to you, and why? If you townread Loopdan, please explain in depth. I understand that PvtUrist doesn't look like an example of town, but from my perspective it looks like you're projecting your own reasoning on his absence (which isn't necessarily wrong, it just might sway your read further towards scum or town than you wanted to.) Since most of my points against Loopdan are relatively concrete (as far as I'm aware), and I doubt they could be scum together, I doubt PvtUrist is scum. I would really like to hear your opinions on this.

I will admit I might be a little too hard with him here (PvtUrist). I think for me it's ultimately difficult to read him, when he is so "streamlined".

I agree that Loopdan/PvtUrist is not possible and no, I can definitely rule Loopdan out as townread at the moment as I am not fond of his behaviour after you started your attack. I am just not sure yet if he ends up as neutral or scum for me. Please wait a little bit for my read on Loopdan, I was orginally planning to wait for an improved defence of him, but since I am most likely not here tomorrow and I am getting frustrated with his stalling, which looks like playing on time until it hits one of the other two, I am rereading everything at the moment (including your guys exchange *shiver*).

I personally do not think Loopdan plans on responding to the large slew of questions I have given him. Based on his most recent post, he appears to be ignoring me.

[Enter]

At this point I feel like Loopdan to me seems scummy, I honestly believe i missed most of his actions over the weekend when I was at my friends funeral. Apologize guys, I do want to say that Pvt is more scummy in my book, them hitting at each other doesnt make either mutually exclusive and I would prefer we lynch Pvt at this point.

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

[Enter]

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

So we play my logic with the self lynch, we have a guaranteed town if he flips green, if he is we know where to go, if he isnt we got scum, then there is a possibility of a perfect game. Im hesitant but its logical, give me some time to mull it over.

I live and breathe for the perfect game. Think of it this way, if we flip Loopdan we have a 50% chance of confirmed town.

At this point I feel like Loopdan to me seems scummy, I honestly believe i missed most of his actions over the weekend when I was at my friends funeral. Apologize guys, I do want to say that Pvt is more scummy in my book, them hitting at each other doesnt make either mutually exclusive and I would prefer we lynch Pvt at this point.

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

Also I dont think they are Mutually Exclusive, meaning they could be teammates just seperating, counter counter deal, Ill vote loopdan if we get loopdan to talk about Pvt and I think its fishy. Before we he flips I would like it enitrely ruled out that he is scum.

I doubt he will talk much at all. He's probably realized his hole is too deep, but I'm more than willing to wait. I don't want to lynch PU today.

[Enter]

@Skellen - thanks for that unannounced L-1 vote.

Please contribute in some positive form instead of being passive aggressive and lurking. Weren't you gung-ho about lynching lurkers earlier?

@Skellen, the unvote was not necessary.

[Enter]

@Enter, if he flips town how do you see Muh316 at this point?

Doesn't change my read, really regardless of what Loopdan flips.

Well, I'm not jumping on that wagon. I read everything, I get where they (mostly Enter) are coming from, but something smells fishy here. It seems like Loopdan reads obv scum to a lot of people and I just don't see it coming from an IC. The only thing that really stood out for me is policy vote on MDb- @Loopdan, can you explain that.
So, if he flips scum - lesson learned for me not to trust my gut next time.
My read on PvT also changed to null-scum.

If Loopdan didn't have the title of IC, would that change how you read him?

[Enter]

Oh yeah, before I forget it, here's an old post from the Mafia Discussion sub-forum, where Enter brings up an effective way for scum to derail a game.

Enter's discussion topic he started 3 years ago (under his Extrapolated Eagle login) discussing how effective it is when scum hardcore tunnels a player who would otherwise be hard to lynch.

Spoiler: Does the playstyle he describes look familiar?

There seems to be an incredibly frustrating site meta that has developed since the last time I played about 2 years ago of hardcore tunneling a singular player, often a lynch that would be otherwise harder to achieve and it's getting under my skin. I have actually seen little to no tunneling from town in my recent games and deathtunneling has seemed to come almost exclusively from scum. I think this needs to be addressed, because this is ridiculous and frustrating to deal with.

Here's how it benefits the mafia:
1. It keeps doubt in the minds of town players that said tunneled player is town even if said player would often be considered strong town by day 2/day 3.
2. It keeps the victim from calling the predator out for fear of having "OMGUS!" screamed like a professional soccer player falls to the ground holding his leg and yells in pain when the ball is taken from him.
3. It gets the scum a town read because it's seen as "pushing his reads"
4. The scum player doesn't have to interact with the rest of the game or share reads other than "<victims name> needs to die, they're obvscum"

This needs to be callled out as scum like every time it's seen because it almost always comes from scum.

It's almost like 1, I've grown, and 2, I'm not tunneling you. I called you scum, you freaked out and accused me of confbias and tunneling. Quit your pathetic tirade and play the darn game.

[Enter]

@Enter - I didn't freak out. You kept yelling in ALL CAPS and repeating the same points over and over again, so I stopped reading your posts.

You did freak out. I wasn't yelling, I was posting important points in all caps because I know people skim my posts. You saw it and got offended. That's a you problem.

You weren't reading my posts in the first place, you were cherry picking and you know it. You didn't even properly respond to my first post, you tried to just dismiss it by calling me bad town or scum.

Your current path of action right now by ignoring me when I call you out for using words improperly (tunneling, confbias) when I call you out for multi-posting (8 in a row? What even is that --especially as an IC?) when I call you out for bad play (sheeping another player? When has that ever been acceptable?) is child-like.

Stop dropping passive aggressive comments and saying my points are bad when you admit you're not even reading them. Stop playing in this off-the-cuff rage. It looks bad on you as a person and it's not beneficial to the mafia game in any form or fashion.

[Enter]

He has 47 posts in this game (most are rather large). Virtually all of them here are pushing a lynch on me.

He had 49 in that game (most not that large). Only 16 have anything to do with NSG, and they pale in comparison to his push here.

So why did he characterize his push on NSG a "tunnel" but says his push on me isn't a tunnel?

I had a constant push on NSG over time. I had like three posts before you started insisting I was confbiasing and tunneling, and you didn't even provide counter points for all my points.

[Enter]

It was a couple posts within the span of a few hours before you dropped that claim.

And to be honest I'd hardly classify what I had against NSG as a tunnel, I wasn't even alive long enough.

[Enter]

Please answer the questions I asked you.

[Enter]

A list of questions derived from my posts for you, @Loopdan (and some I came up with on the spot)

First and foremost, please define tunneling/confbias for me and explain to me how I am already convinced and blinded by reads I didn't even have when entering the game thread? I will almost be happy if you just explain this one at all because it will mean that you're not just using giant mafia words to sound like you know what you're talking about.

Why is your vote currently on PvtUrist?

Do you think sheeping is acceptable? If yes, provide circumstances/reasons.

If town has a time advantage over scum, but scum has an information advantage, why would you feel comfortable not scumhunting and instead sheeping someone else's vote?

Why were you thinking about Thespio when you posted asking why Skellen was town?

Why were you questioning why another player was town reading Skellen, when you had already said you were townreading her (and provided no information in the process)? Why in this process, did you take a noncommittal stance and imply you didn't particularly feel one way or another about skellen?

Why is your vote not currently on me, even though (according to you) my play is suboptimal as town and indicative of scum?

What do you hope to find my reading my meta?

In addition to this, please post a reads list.

[Enter]

Before I'm hammered I want everyone to post the following info. Just copy and paste and add your answer. No explanations needed. Just a name for each.

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is:
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is:

Don't answer this if you can avoid it (some people already have). The reason you don't do this is because it really helps scum know who to kill - It gives away who they're gonna have a hard time lynching (note #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum).

[Enter]

Wouldn't this just get into WIFOM? if i was scum and killed elements it would be incriminating, if you killed him to frame me it would have the same outcome. Doesnt more information about views help town?

From my experience, it's more WIFOM-y in the other direction. This discussion would be safer to have tomorrow. People's views will change over night, so tomorrow at beginning of day everyone will prolly have different reads than they did at end of day today - and you can't hold them to the reads they had now, because they'll say "I reread the game thread overnight." However, one of the hardest things as newbie scum who is about to have to play without the discussion of the second player is picking the night kill. A lot of the time (at least, I personally have had this problem) the player will be biased towards a certain player that they've interacted with the most. The night chat for scum will often keep that player in line as both people will have to go re-read to check and see who's right.

[Enter]

^Ok, ill buy this to some degree, but dont we already have general reads, and the vc makes it clear who wants who dead?

To an extent. But you'll notice that more than half of the votes are now on a dead player, which makes it a bit harder.

[Enter]

Alright, there reaches a point where the day begins to go on too long. I wasn't going to worry about this, since it seemed inconsequential, but I now believe that since people still seem a bit uncertain about Loopdan, let's clear a few things up:

1. There is a difference between a push and a tunnel. I've been a part of both.

A push is when you find someone you think is scum, you push them, they don't respond to your push/they respond poorly => they are then lynched -OR- They respond well, you find that you're now closer to townreading that person => you have a townread. This is what happened between myself and Loopdan, and between myself and Thespio. Loopdan failed to even acknowledge all my points, cherry-picked my argument, took me out of context, and responded to only what he wanted to respond to. When I followed up with questions, he ignored me and did not continue to play the game until heat was placed on MDb and MDb was replaced => all of a sudden he was rejuvenated. Thespio at first dismissed my arguments against him, but in time responded appropriately, discussion was had, and now I am closer to townreading him.

The lack of push is the reason town was so stagnate earlier. Scum likes it when people don't push your reads because at that point you reach page six and you only have one strong town read.

A tunnel is when you find someone you think is scum, you push them, they respond appropriately, the momentum dies, and all of a sudden three days later you're still pushing them, you're the only one on their wagon, and you refuse to consider anyone else even though your points have been responded to appropriately because you're so convinced they're scum.

Loopdan called my push a tunnel 10 hours after I replaced into the game. Please ask yourself if that makes sense to you at all. Loopdan didn't continue to call what I did a tunnel until later in the game.

If you want to see real tunnel play, look at my games on Tr1ckster, especially my newbie game w/ randomidget. I hard tunneled since day 1. I was town that game, BTW. IIRC I used to tunnel a lot. If you look at the so-called tunnel on NSG (which again, I tried to do, but didn't work out) I got caught as scum because I flip flopped on my reads constantly. I didn't actually tunnel NSG, I made fewer posts, my posts were uncertain, and I sat on the fence.

2.

I'm pretty good at reading players. I'm often better at town-hunting than scum-hunting, but that largely depends on the players involved.

This is dumb. If you're good at reading players, you're good at scumhunting. If you call every player town (which is what you were doing: "I don't have any scum reads at the moment") you will have a >50% success rate. This is such a bad excuse for your play.

3.
It's important to recognize the speed with which wagons are built. Something interesting to recognize is that very few people had said a whole lot about Thespio being scum (IIRC) before his wagon came in out of almost nowhere. This is by far not the fastest wagon I've seen built, and it did take a little building (including a hypothetical self-vote from him), but something you should note is that Loopdan has been called out as being weird since Page 2, and it took until now for there to be a wagon on him. The buildup was relatively slow, and you'll notice that a lot of players have had him in their "slightly-scummy" or "not sure anymore" reads that are not voting him or are very hesitant to vote him. Slow wagon buildups are very often scum, especially on day 1.

[Enter]

Slow wagon buildups are more often scum than fast wagons, especially on day 1.

EBWOP.

Also the fact that people are trying to meta me off of a single game they haven't read is actually ridiculous.

I don't like that Loopdan is calling for 1v1. It feels off to me.

[Enter]

slow wagon buildups are very often scum, especially on day 1.

So your saying you think the people who have been slow to vote him are town for you and we are all hesitant because were not sure if he is scum? Loopdan flips his vote alot, are you saying that makes him scum?

I'm saying that especially day 1 town often is easier to lynch than scum. My speculation as to why includes the possibility that town are more conservative when hammering a player and that scum are a lot less likely to be on a scum wagon (and at most it will be # of scum-1)

I said the way Loopdan flipped his vote made him look bad. Especially because he flipped his vote a lot and didn't push his reads at all.

[Enter]

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

Wouldn't you WANT to flip Loopdan in that case so you can understand me? I'm afraid I'm not following.

Also it's Mewbie 1477. That was an actual tunnel. I tunneled Hanzo from day 1 into day 2 until he flipped scum from his lynch on day 2.

[Enter]

@elements

Spoiler: Recommended Reading

Skellen reads town, though.
Elements also reads ... fine.
Thespio is full of words that mean barely anything w/ no vote and his "change of heart" on elements is weird.
Loopdan reads red.

Alright. So I've been pretty back and forth on my read for Thespio, which is why I've been really rather hoping to get a Loopdan lynch today so we can re-examine Thespio tomorrow.

The biggest part causing me to reconsider my scum read on him is how quickly the wagon formed. One thing that is often good to look at in mafia games is who is pushing what wagon and when. Day 1 wagons are often really quite hard to work up to a lynch, especially w/o scum. This is one reason why very often townies are lynched on day 1; scum controls a little over 20% of the vote and they both know who they want lynched - anyone but them. The Thespio wagon built pretty quickly after my arrival, which is somewhat surprising, since I didn't really push him at all. My thought is that town was looking for someone to push that wasn't a lurker, but was under the influence of loopdan/Thespio => didn't really want to try to solo push one of them against the crowd. So, considering Thespio is at a potential L-1 right now, let's look at who's on this wagon:

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

And for the sake of analysis, we'll consider Thespio's 193 as a self-vote.

Munchmellow doesn't have very many posts this game, but the ones she does have, I follow and share a thought process with. She suspects Loopdan in 70, reexamines her read and explains why Thespio feels off in 137 (which I agree with, BTW, the whole "self -vote" thing is a level of AtE that shouldn't be accomplished by anyone other than a newbie, IMO)
[BTW, Thespio, if you're reading this and you still think for some reason that Loopdan's 92 was serious, you should notice that Munchmellow responds as if he's asking about you and he still doesn't notice, which should trigger the thought in you that it's pretty apparent loopdan is asking questions to ask questions and has nothing he's looking for] Anyways. Munchmellow posts reads in 140 - which I agree with, and it makes me happy that it's a pretty full reads list. I feel pretty solid on Munchmellow for town.

Elements follows Munchmellow. ISO-ing him and one could easily see how you might think you're ISO-ing the same person. Again, I agree with his thoughts, his reservations on the whole self-vote thing, his questioning of double-bussing. I like him for town.

PvtUrist - This one is weird, because it does still feel, in the slightest way, a bit weird to me that he has maintained his vote on Thespio since game start. But. Here's why I think he's town: He was the first player to drop reads. Loopdan's vote on him is super weird and he avoids responsibility for his PvtUrist vote (which loopdan would WANT responsibility for PvtUrist flip if he was bussing his buddy). When PvtUrist did drop those questions in 112, they were pretty decent questions and indicate some small amount of town - motivation. Yes, my town read on him is weak. No, it doesn't matter, because my scum read on Loopdan is ridiculously strong, and there isn't two scum in [PvtUrist, Loopdan]

Finally, Thespio:
I disagree with the idea of lynching yourself. Let's start there. Yes I was ok with it when I started mafia, but I've grown and changed a lot, I think. You have a role-pm from the mod that says you're town. That is the largest confirmation you will get and the first piece to the logic puzzle that is mafia. (it's a little more than a logic puzzle, but bear with me). The only time you should ever be ok with yourself being lynched is never, IMO, because you should always be doing your best to be the largest asset to town when you're alive, and when you're dead, you have no control over the game. I have seen so many times where it looks like town has won because everything is set up perfectly and some charming mafia goon wins over the heart of the guy heading off his lynch and all of a sudden town loses in a 3p LyLo. Sure, at the end of day yesterday, everyone agreed that if you self-voted then they would lynch the mafia goon you were so certain should die if you flipped town, but people change. People's read change. A lot. Especially over night. However, I will not lynch based solely off the fact that people are willing to play sub-optimal town games in this way, because I'm pretty sure there are mafia players that will disagree with me on the self-vote being suboptimal. Whatever.

Let's get to the next issue: Self-vote threats: This is an entirely different matter because it is the lowest of low AtE. While talk of lynching yourself can be considered mafia theory, threatening to self-vote is a spastic response of emotion that belongs nowhere except every once in a while, from a newbie, in a newbie game. Then the threat should be squashed by the IC and everyone should move on with their lives, because it's bad. It is very bad. I view self-votes in mafia games like I view threats to wreck your own car because it would get attention. Will I lynch for it? Not always. Did it make me think he was almost definitely scum for a moment? Yes. This is one of the very few places that meta-ing someone does come in handy for me. When I see someone make dumb newbie mistakes like this, I go back and look at past games and see if they make the same mistakes in those games as town. So, let's see what we can find:

In Newbie 1640, Post 190 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

This helps no one. if you honestly got him lynched and he was town, then its likely a scum driven lynch and thus if you are town you will have scum backing as well. Ultimately you could both be town.

Indicating an understanding that self-flipping and threats of such are rarely reasonable.

And in Newbie 1625, Post 982 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

There kill last night is basically WIFOM. I think its odd you countered immediately... But I also think Jorams timely absence is quite mysterious too... So im lookin @ Jorams post about being investigated a possible scum slip. I also think Aku is lurking pretty badly... Anyone have any think aku might have used Bulba as a train after we all were questioning him?

Again indicating how much WIFOM surrounds a kill. Sure, he's talking about a night kill here, but the point is across that once you're dead, you're not as effective and it is so easy to WIFOM everything out. Even if PvtUrist was scum, day 2 when we tried to lynch him, he would start explaining everything for Thespio and Thespio wouldn't be there to correct him. I've seen it so much, and Thespio seems to understand this, too, which makes me think he's prolly scum, using AtE.

Up until this point, I had been doubting my read on Thespio, but the threats to self-vote is so bad and talk of self-lynch over no-lynch is so bad, I don't think I can fathom him flipping town.

In addition he had some weird interactions at beginning of day, his teasing flip w/ his read on elements was weird, and his pushing of lurkers is bad. I also don't like how he dismissed the Skellen v Loopdan as TvT and Loopdan chimed in. Anyways, I'm super distracted right now, so I will get back to this later, but as of right now, I feel pretty solid on my scum read on Thespio.

As far as Loopdan's partner, let's examine the possibilities:

1. PvtUrist: Loopdan doesn't take responsibility for his vote, like he should if he knew PvtUrist was flipping scum. => I think PvtUrist is pretty much conftown when Loopdan flips scum
2. Skellen: Skellen reads like town to me. 125 makes them look town, I think. I think it's pretty rare for scum to call other scum hard town read without other townies agreeing, also the debate at the beginning makes me think it's TvS => Skellen is town.
3. muh316: Kinda weird vote from Loopdan in RVS. Also second one to jump on Loopdan after I came in, and continued to press. Looks kinda town to me (although there really isn't much interaction between them, muh316 calls out Loopdan, Loopdan says "later" :/ ).
4. Munchmellow: Again, not a lot of interactions outside an RVS vote from Loopdan. She's placed suspicion on him before. Reading her as pretty town-y.
5. elements: Weird interaction between elements and Loopdan on Loopdan's side, again. :/ And again, we see another case of elements calling him out for being weird.

You might begin to be seeing a pattern here. Everyone here has called Loopdan out for weird things. I think most of the people in this group are less likely to be his partner than the other two, but it's pretty hard. Elements, for example, could easily be just following other people's example by calling out Loopdan out for his weirdness. If I had to pick a name out of this list on the spot, it would prolly be elements based on the fact that Loopdan didn't vote him when elements made a weird move w/ his votes, even though he did vote muh316. Although that might point more towards muh316, as it seems to me that Loopdan is more scared of pushing a wagon on town.
====

6. Thespio: weird interactions w/ Loopdan. One of the only people to not call him out for weird stuff in the game thread.
7. MissDeadbeat/MagikHorse: Actually nothing this game. Loopdan was awful quick to get his vote off MissDeadbeat. This signals to me that she's the most likely here to be scum. In addition, he took full responsibility for his vote on her. My suspicion is that he saw Thespio vote her, thought to himself "Oh crap better bus her, it's maybe over for her" and then swapped to PvtUrist once he saw a way out.

My conclusion: Of every player here, I would really like to see more from MagikHorse (and if I don't, I will be a very big fan of their lynch on day 2).

@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?

I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

[Enter]

Wouldn't you WANT to flip Loopdan in that case so you can understand me? I'm afraid I'm not following.

Also it's Mewbie 1477. That was an actual tunnel. I tunneled Hanzo from day 1 into day 2 until he flipped scum from his lynch on day 2.

As I just said, I know one of you are scum, I'm leaning towards loopdan because it gives info on you an Pvt, however... We have a few days in D1 left, and there is always the posibility im wrong, so i want to see if we can test both of your reads, loopdans seems more reactive, and he nearly gave up so im not sure if it was a pity play as scum and then when he saw it wouldn't work he made a strong active push to try to live. Regardless discussions help town.

Regardless of any other circumstances, let's math this out real quick.

Flipping Loopdan gives you solid reads on two people.

Flipping me gives you reads on no one.

@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

I dont understand, do you think he is town tunneling you? You are still my pick for today I just dont want anything to stop this clash, i want to see it to its end so D2 regardless of what happens I know what you both think. I do believe one of you is scum, i understand he did basically tunnel you, he did it even when confronting me. You arent out of the fire yet. But your survivalism does seem town now that you are actually trying.

I'm think there's a chance he is town-tunneling me, but I think there's a greater chance he's just scum. Enter has not shown equivocation or doubt or puzzlement about anything. That doesn't read as town.

You failed to reply to my posts. You failed to show you read and understood what I was talking about. You were quick to skim and dismiss anything that proposed you might be scum. You still claim I misrep you but fail to show how. You cherry-picked my post.

You use a lot of words, mate, but most of them aren't true and the other half show you don't understand what they mean. You still haven't defined a tunnel or talked about why you think it's bad for town.

Every time I come close to doubting my read on you, you do something scummier. I did doubt and changed my read on Thespio, because he actually showed that he cared. He read and responded to my posts, he answered my concerns, and he didn't continuously use words or make up arguments out of thin air. He didn't go searching my post history in other games so he could confbias me (see, that's how you use that word correctly) He didn't sit and pout for a day and half after getting called scum. He didn't decide that the lynch should be between him and anyone who calls him scum. You seem frustrated, and annoyed, and I think it's because you still don't understand. This frustrates me, because I want you to understand, I just can't make you if you refuse to read my continuous attempts to explain.

How about you use that meta of yours and look through that scum game I played recently. Look at how often I showed doubt in that. See a large contrast? Interesting. Stop coming up with excuses for why you were caught out as scum and justifying them by searching for confbias.

Enter says I called it a tunnel after only ten hours. Sure. He also had 17 mostly lengthy posts where he aggressively argued that I was scum during that time. And during that time he never once tried to engage me directly to determine my alignment. He came into the game with his mind already made up. I actually started off addressing his concerns in 143, 145, 160, 161, 162, 163, and 170. During that time he posted nine times while mis-repping what I'd said and lying about what I'd done (remember when he quoted my posts out of order to say I encouraged town to scumhunt and

then

I sheeped Skellen's vote. Yeah it was the other way around).

After I recognized he had no interest in actually sorting me, but had clearly already made up his mind, I post this:

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions, indicating you have zero interest in actually sorting my alignment. Like I said before, you are either confbiasing or scum. I'm not going to get sucked into your never-ending tunnel of misrepresentations and outright lies (see 161 for just one example).

If other players think Enter has some valid points and want to point those out to me I'll be glad to engage and answer as best I can. As far as I can tell Enter's case on me is that I didn't do enough to advance the game-state (which I already admitted before he showed up) and that I placed 6 (oops I mean 4) votes without posting huge walls of explanation.

After I'm done reading some of Enter's prior games I'll come back with (hopefully) a better stance on Badtown v Scum.

So yeah, that's the background on me first calling it a tunnel.

You failed to quote your other post, where you call me bad town confbiasing or scum. Interesting.

You still fail to define what a tunnel is. Please do. Please also define a push, because I don't think you understand what either is, given your very passive play.

Enter says I called it a tunnel after only ten hours. Sure. He also had 17 mostly lengthy posts where he aggressively argued that I was scum during that time. And during that time he never once tried to engage me directly to determine my alignment. He came into the game with his mind already made up. I actually started off addressing his concerns in 143, 145, 160, 161, 162, 163, and 170. During that time he posted nine times while mis-repping what I'd said and lying about what I'd done (remember when he quoted my posts out of order to say I encouraged town to scumhunt and

then

I sheeped Skellen's vote. Yeah it was the other way around).

After I recognized he had no interest in actually sorting me, but had clearly already made up his mind, I post this:

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions, indicating you have zero interest in actually sorting my alignment. Like I said before, you are either confbiasing or scum. I'm not going to get sucked into your never-ending tunnel of misrepresentations and outright lies (see 161 for just one example).

If other players think Enter has some valid points and want to point those out to me I'll be glad to engage and answer as best I can. As far as I can tell Enter's case on me is that I didn't do enough to advance the game-state (which I already admitted before he showed up) and that I placed 6 (oops I mean 4) votes without posting huge walls of explanation.

After I'm done reading some of Enter's prior games I'll come back with (hopefully) a better stance on Badtown v Scum.

So yeah, that's the background on me first calling it a tunnel.

Ok so youre saying if it was a push there would have been actual questions and statements that he wanted a reply to?

@Enter, was there something specific you were hunting for?

There's a couple. Specifically, I just want him to read my posts and seriously reply to them instead of being dismissive and the like. As I said before, he's shown on multiple occasions he's not paying attention and he's not taking this game seriously like he should be as town. This is because the day phase doesn't matter to him, his strength is in the night phase. The fact that you're letting him flail like this is ridiculous.

Right now, though, I want him to actually come up with a serious complete set of reads - I asked him for this a while ago and he still hasn't posted it. I asked him to answer some questions and he asked me to find them for him, so I quoted myself. He still hasn't posted a complete set of reads.
I also want him to define a tunnel in his words and explain why what I'm doing is tunneling and not pushing my reads. He's been claiming I've been confbiasing for a while now, and I'd like an explanation as to what preexisting argument I had that I was confbiasing for. Also I would like a reason - really any reason - why I would push him over PvtUrist as scum.

Really, though, all I really want are some complete thoughts about the game that he's put together. His fragmented 8-posts in a row don't do it for me, they're spastic, spammy and give barely any information.

[Enter]

@MagikHorse I don't have much on you, but if you look it's still there.

Spoiler: Recommended Reading

Alright, there reaches a point where the day begins to go on too long. I wasn't going to worry about this, since it seemed inconsequential, but I now believe that since people still seem a bit uncertain about Loopdan, let's clear a few things up:

1. There is a difference between a push and a tunnel. I've been a part of both.

A push is when you find someone you think is scum, you push them, they don't respond to your push/they respond poorly => they are then lynched -OR- They respond well, you find that you're now closer to townreading that person => you have a townread. This is what happened between myself and Loopdan, and between myself and Thespio. Loopdan failed to even acknowledge all my points, cherry-picked my argument, took me out of context, and responded to only what he wanted to respond to. When I followed up with questions, he ignored me and did not continue to play the game until heat was placed on MDb and MDb was replaced => all of a sudden he was rejuvenated. Thespio at first dismissed my arguments against him, but in time responded appropriately, discussion was had, and now I am closer to townreading him.

The lack of push is the reason town was so stagnate earlier. Scum likes it when people don't push your reads because at that point you reach page six and you only have one strong town read.

A tunnel is when you find someone you think is scum, you push them, they respond appropriately, the momentum dies, and all of a sudden three days later you're still pushing them, you're the only one on their wagon, and you refuse to consider anyone else even though your points have been responded to appropriately because you're so convinced they're scum.

Loopdan called my push a tunnel 10 hours after I replaced into the game. Please ask yourself if that makes sense to you at all. Loopdan didn't continue to call what I did a tunnel until later in the game.

If you want to see real tunnel play, look at my games on Tr1ckster, especially my newbie game w/ randomidget. I hard tunneled since day 1. I was town that game, BTW. IIRC I used to tunnel a lot. If you look at the so-called tunnel on NSG (which again, I tried to do, but didn't work out) I got caught as scum because I flip flopped on my reads constantly. I didn't actually tunnel NSG, I made fewer posts, my posts were uncertain, and I sat on the fence.

2.

I'm pretty good at reading players. I'm often better at town-hunting than scum-hunting, but that largely depends on the players involved.

This is dumb. If you're good at reading players, you're good at scumhunting. If you call every player town (which is what you were doing: "I don't have any scum reads at the moment") you will have a >50% success rate. This is such a bad excuse for your play.

3.
It's important to recognize the speed with which wagons are built. Something interesting to recognize is that very few people had said a whole lot about Thespio being scum (IIRC) before his wagon came in out of almost nowhere. This is by far not the fastest wagon I've seen built, and it did take a little building (including a hypothetical self-vote from him), but something you should note is that Loopdan has been called out as being weird since Page 2, and it took until now for there to be a wagon on him. The buildup was relatively slow, and you'll notice that a lot of players have had him in their "slightly-scummy" or "not sure anymore" reads that are not voting him or are very hesitant to vote him. Slow wagon buildups are very often scum, especially on day 1.

As far as Loopdan's partner, let's examine the possibilities:

1. PvtUrist: Loopdan doesn't take responsibility for his vote, like he should if he knew PvtUrist was flipping scum. => I think PvtUrist is pretty much conftown when Loopdan flips scum
2. Skellen: Skellen reads like town to me. 125 makes them look town, I think. I think it's pretty rare for scum to call other scum hard town read without other townies agreeing, also the debate at the beginning makes me think it's TvS => Skellen is town.
3. muh316: Kinda weird vote from Loopdan in RVS. Also second one to jump on Loopdan after I came in, and continued to press. Looks kinda town to me (although there really isn't much interaction between them, muh316 calls out Loopdan, Loopdan says "later" :/ ).
4. Munchmellow: Again, not a lot of interactions outside an RVS vote from Loopdan. She's placed suspicion on him before. Reading her as pretty town-y.
5. elements: Weird interaction between elements and Loopdan on Loopdan's side, again. :/ And again, we see another case of elements calling him out for being weird.

You might begin to be seeing a pattern here. Everyone here has called Loopdan out for weird things. I think most of the people in this group are less likely to be his partner than the other two, but it's pretty hard. Elements, for example, could easily be just following other people's example by calling out Loopdan out for his weirdness. If I had to pick a name out of this list on the spot, it would prolly be elements based on the fact that Loopdan didn't vote him when elements made a weird move w/ his votes, even though he did vote muh316. Although that might point more towards muh316, as it seems to me that Loopdan is more scared of pushing a wagon on town.
====

6. Thespio: weird interactions w/ Loopdan. One of the only people to not call him out for weird stuff in the game thread.
7. MissDeadbeat/MagikHorse: Actually nothing this game. Loopdan was awful quick to get his vote off MissDeadbeat. This signals to me that she's the most likely here to be scum. In addition, he took full responsibility for his vote on her. My suspicion is that he saw Thespio vote her, thought to himself "Oh crap better bus her, it's maybe over for her" and then swapped to PvtUrist once he saw a way out.

My conclusion: Of every player here, I would really like to see more from MagikHorse (and if I don't, I will be a very big fan of their lynch on day 2).

@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?

I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

Something that should be noted is that Loopdan is again asking for something he hasn't provided: a list of reads - something I've been asking from him since my 3rd? 4th? (something like that) post.

[Enter]

Dear god, refresh and the wall of text appears, Enter I’m not proposing we lynch you rn, I want him to post more so if he’s scum we get more banter and possibly get a hint towards partner.

His banter is intentionally confusing and all over the place. He's wildly calling people scum and town. He still hasn't posted a full reads list, which is something I've been asking for since before he started calling me badtown and scum. I honestly think he's just scum flailing at this point. If he was town he would have put out a full reads list by now, but he won't because it knows it won't really change the lynch and it will help town a lot.

PEdit: *sigh*

Post 226 still holds pretty true.

[Enter]

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

Updated:

Town

Skellen
Elements
Munchmellow
MagikHorse
Thespio
PvtUrist
Enter
Muh316

Scum

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

In other news Muh is scum and should be investigated at night.

Ouch. I'm dumb, and I missed that somehow. If you could fix it with why you moved your vote off MDb to start, that would be super great.

Also, if you could put a line there for why you think the things you thought, maybe?

Also please talk about what happened after you placed your vote on PvtUrist to give you what I assume are scumreads on MagikHorse and Munchmellow, seeing as you didn't have any scumreads when you placed your vote on PvtUrist.

[Enter]

Ouch. I'm dumb, and I missed that somehow. If you could fix it with why you moved your vote off MDb to start, that would be super great.

I've answered this twice already. MDb was better than my RVS vote. Then Skellen Townes it up big time and sheeping a strong TR while I reread the game was better than the MDb vote.[/quyote]
I'm still asking you because it's not consistent w/ your post on MDb.

Also please talk about what happened after you placed your vote on PvtUrist to give you what I assume are scumreads on MagikHorse and Munchmellow, seeing as you didn't have any scumreads when you placed your vote on PvtUrist.

Why are you assuming I am scumreading them?

Your vote was on PvtUrist. Surely...

[Enter]

Ouch. I'm dumb, and I missed that somehow. If you could fix it with why you moved your vote off MDb to start, that would be super great.

I've answered this twice already. MDb was better than my RVS vote. Then Skellen Townes it up big time and sheeping a strong TR while I reread the game was better than the MDb vote.

I'm still asking you because it's not consistent w/ your post on MDb.

Also please talk about what happened after you placed your vote on PvtUrist to give you what I assume are scumreads on MagikHorse and Munchmellow, seeing as you didn't have any scumreads when you placed your vote on PvtUrist.

Why are you assuming I am scumreading them?[/quote]

Your vote was on PvtUrist. Surely...

==========
...EBWOP

[Enter]

I still don't get what you mean. Unless you just have your timeline mixed-up on when I voted Pvt and when I posted that readslist.

I guess what I mean to ask is what changed your reads between 125 and that reads list.

PEdit: AFAIK there is no 1v1 between me and Loopdan other than the one he called for earlier.

[Enter]

if their TR was based on me being scum they need to re-evaluate.

This is truth regardless if you flip today or not.

This is my biggest problem with it. One of the questions is completely useless to us if he's going to flip scum (but sure helps his buddy a lot) and the other looks like it's just there to make the other one look less scummy.

[Enter]

I honestly think at this point we wait on further thoughts on PvtUrist and then someone should drop intent to hammer.

[Enter]

if their TR was based on me being scum they need to re-evaluate.

This is truth regardless if you flip today or not.

This is my biggest problem with it. One of the questions is completely useless to us

if he's going to flip scum

(but sure helps his buddy a lot) and the other looks like it's just there to make the other one look less scummy.

I bolded the problem with your argument.

If you are town, your problem is that once you have convinced yourself that you've caught scum you are unable to see town motivations in any of their actions. If you are scum, your problem is that you can't fake town behavior that displays uncertainty.

No, this is your problem. If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad. Stop trying to put it off on me. I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

[Enter]

I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

This was unnecessarily mean, and I apologize. And no, I don't think you should have asked either question.

[Enter]

No, this is your problem. If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad. Stop trying to put it off on me. I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

Do you really think I should have encouraged everyone to answer: "Who is your biggest townread if I flip town?"

Uh, no.

That would do exactly what you claim my questions accomplish: help scum determine a NK

The fact that you try to put these words in my mouth after I explicitly said not to answer these questions is just one more reason you look scummy.

[Enter]

I'm not saying you should be asking THOSE questions.

[Enter]

No, this is your problem. If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad. Stop trying to put it off on me. I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

You're blinding yourself in your tunneling. I'm not going to say his play is flawless or isn't scummy because he's definitely made his mistakes, but you're missing out on so much right now that it hurts. Too many things you've been poking at and calling him scum over, like his question pair, have a town side to them that he's already thrown out for all to see, yet you're skipping them right over and calling them scummy because they can be seen that way and completely ignoring the other side of the coin.

You're also missing the actions of the entire town surrounding you, and I have no clue what you think of anyone else at this point given how old your reads are and how little you've said about anyone else, and I'm not the first one to say that. You keep pointing back to your old posts as evidence of your reads, but do you still "want to see more from Magik" like your original post said? Seems like you could at least figure out something about my alignment after these 27 posts, but yet you've said nothing about me or anyone else lately, only referring to other people's posts when they're talking about Loop or talking directly to you.

If you're seriously town, take a break, cool your jets, and come back once you can review things without the massive confbias. I truly think you're town here given how suicidal this sort of tunnel is on Day 1 for scum, but you really need to get out of this tunnel and review everything he's said without this scum-tinted lens you're using right now because it's crippling your ability to help the town out.

I get why you're posting like this, I really do. I was posting earlier while I was doing something else and my mind was not entirely on the game, and I realize also the flaw in that.

Alright, let's take a step back for a minute. Where do you see the rest of this day going? What are your intentions as far as the hammer is concerned? Do you see a Loopdan lynch happening?

Also, let's look at a few things:

Spoiler: 1. Loopdan's last vote (and where it stands currently) in contrast with his recent posting:

Actually, after reading that old post again just now I really do think Enter is more likely to flip scum than muh.

VOTE: Enter

Yeah I've slowly come to the realization that Enter is likely town here. What Magik just said is pretty much reading my mind.

If Loopdan-Enter is TvT then scum have no reason to advance the game.

So who isn't advancing the game?

ATTENTION INVESTIGATIVE PR: If I die here, investigate Enter tonight, and if he's town, think hard on this .

[/quote][/quote]

Spoiler: 2. Loopdan's ability to read players now vs earlier:

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

You are at L-1. I would think there is no reason to hold anything back any longer. Why not using the time now instead of waiting until a countdown starts?

I want to hear more from Pvt, Munch, and Muh first. My reads are moving quickly atm so I'd rather just do it once.

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

VOTE: Muh316

The fact that he still doesn't have a line between town and scum is something additional to note.

Spoiler: 3. Loopdan's instructions to town

If Loopdan-Enter is TvT then scum have no reason to advance the game.

So who isn't advancing the game?

ATTENTION INVESTIGATIVE PR: If I die here, investigate Enter tonight, and if he's town, think hard on this .

[/quote][/quote]

I'm not even going to talk about why this is bad. Why you continuously try to bring up discussion topics that are anti-town and yet somehow desire for people to believe that you are town is beyond me.

I honestly could go on.

[Enter]

Magik, please respond to this for me, and then explain to me why I have a scum tinted lense. Also please post one thing Loopdan has done that is town. And answer my questions. That was my attempt to take conversation elsewhere.

Most of these don't require much explanation, anyways, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Spoiler:

Also, if you could put a line there for why you think the things you thought, maybe?

I think I've already explained the extremes of my readslist enough.

His explanation:

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

Updated:

Town

Skellen
Elements
Munchmellow
MagikHorse
Thespio
PvtUrist
Enter
Muh316

Scum

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

In other news Muh is scum and should be investigated at night.

Spoiler:

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

Updated:

Town

Skellen
Elements
Munchmellow
MagikHorse
Thespio
PvtUrist
Enter
Muh316

Scum

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

In other news Muh is scum and should be investigated at night.

^do you know a pr?

No.

Did you just softclaim a pr?

No. And stop talking about who may or not be one.

Another discussion he starts to get town points for finishing.

Spoiler:

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Thespio's lone vote isn't likely to mean much, but he's right. Her level of activity is unacceptable.

Seems pretty damning to me.

Ouch. I'm dumb, and I missed that somehow. If you could fix it with why you moved your vote off MDb to start, that would be super great.

I've answered this twice already. MDb was better than my RVS vote. Then Skellen Townes it up big time and sheeping a strong TR while I reread the game was better than the MDb vote.

oh.

Spoiler:

I will be around if anybody has any questions, but I'm pretty much done. There is little hope of avoiding lynch here and I don't have the energy or time to invest in trying to convince a bunch of players who are already convinced to the point that they are looking for a partner.

He's correct in that outing your towniest reads near EOD can help scum choose their lynch. But notice I did not ask you for your towniest read in the event I flip town. The wording of these two questions was specifically chosen to avoid helping scum.

The reason I asked who is towniest if I flip scum is because I want town on day2 to be thinking about

why

they were TRing other players day1, and if their TR was based on me being scum they need to re-evaluate. Notice I didn't ask who is scum if I flip scum, because that is irrelevant.

The wording of these two questions was specifically chosen to help town day2 and to avoid helping scum make a NK decision.

You guys are seriously wasting time trying to find a partner of an unflipped player on day1. That's bad play. You need to be sorting other, uninvolved players because I have a sneaking suspicion that three of you on my wagon are town (not muh316).

Before I'm hammered I want everyone to post the following info. Just copy and paste and add your answer. No explanations needed. Just a name for each.

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is:
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is:

I've forgotten these discussions are so different.

Spoiler:

Alright I think I've said everything I need to say.

So go ahead and lynch me or lynch Enter. I'll gladly 1v1 with him now.

I DO NOT think we should be lynching outside Loopdan and Enter today. Scum at this point would love to move the lynch off of me because I've essentially claimed VT and they want to hit a PR or get a PR claim day1.

Line 2 and 3 should ping you pretty hard. Just think about them for a second.

Spoiler:

@Magik - Don't forget that other post where he categorizes his own play as tunneling NSG was posted 10 days ago. This inconsistency on how he views his play here is more than a curiosity.

I didn't categorize it as such.

Spoiler:

@Enter, was there something specific you were hunting for?

This is a bad question. You should read his ISO yourself and determine if he was hunting for anything.

Please answer the questions I asked you.

Post them again (concisely). I'm not wading through your posts to find them.

Oh.

[Enter]

Yeah, that's about what I expected of you. No removal of the scum tinted lens, no break to clear your head, no consideration of the other side of the coin, not a single thing about anyone but Loopdan and a "Hey I get it" even though you've completely missed the entire point of my post.

Talk to me when you're no longer tunnel visioned, and not a moment before. I'm not going to get anything useful from you out of this engagement while you are, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. Focus elsewhere, at least for a little while.

I have posted more my ever-growing case against him including all of the times he continues to contradict himself up until now. There is no "scum-tinted lense" and I have not been missing things happening in the game thread. The only change of any large importance in my reads from the ones I've quoted at you is that from the fact that you are so obviously defending him while he is simultaneously in your scum reads puts you right above him in my scum read list.

The fact that you seem to want me to drop my case against him with my constantly expanding library of material does not look good on you.

We have already had so much discussion today based on Loopdan's lynch, and Loopdan himself said it would be scum-oriented to try to lynch anyone but him at this point. Stop defending him, and answer my questions.

[Enter]

Every night when I go to bed I question if I'm insane in my confidence, and every time I come back and look at the game thread, I ISO Loopdan to see if maybe, for some reason, I'm crazy and wildly off-mark. And every day I come back to another post reassuring me that I'm spot on.

It may not look like it but I have taken multiple breaks, gone on a drive many many times, just went to go get food. I've cleared my head again and again, but every time I start the thread I see a different way that Loopdan seems to have made some AtE, tried some reason to call me not-town, but then makes plays that are ridiculously sub-optimal. It is beyond my comprehension for him to be this bad anti-town and still flip green.

In addition to all of this, I am constantly reminded that he has not yet been hammered, which is surprising, since you would expect scum to be more than willing to jump on this given a large portion of town has him at least in null-scum, if not in full-on scummy. He is constantly being questioned and failing to answer, he fails to explain his reads, he is constantly contradicting himself, and yet somehow no one will hammer him. This, additionally, reminds me that he is scum - the lynch has -2 people that are willing to vote for him in it.

But I will give you a chance. Please, case him for me. Explain your read on him in detail. If you can explain to me why you think he is town and a bad lynch for today, I will back off. I will go look elsewhere. This is not a promise to drop my case against him, but I will not push him nearly as hard.

[Enter]

Correction to my previous post: If you can ACCEPTABLY explain why he is town and a bad lynch for today, I will back off.

I don't know about you, but I have lynched scum on day 1 before. It was offsite, but this is what it felt like. The Tr1ckster game where I called out Hanzo day 1 felt the same. You spend all day pleading with people to vote, but it is very hard. There is a lot of resistance to the wagon, and you end up pleading with town all game. No one wants to hammer. People see how it looks scummy, but everyone is too concerned to actually hammer (which is strange, considering the odds that town are lynched on day 1). In addition, usually I am not as convinced as I am right now. I also know what it looks like to tunnel town. If Loopdan had actually meta'd me, he would have seen my Extrapolated Eagle play, in which I, on multiple occasions (IIRC), pushed lynches against town players, (and even did so once did so as a gambit) and called out large portions of the scum team based on their reactions. So unless you've got an excellent defense for him, stop defending the player you called semi-scummy, stop asking me to push a lynch that we have a lot of reads based on, and stop telling me I'm playing wrong, that I'm not aware, and that I don't know what I'm doing.

[Enter]

I'm not rehashing anything, pretty much everything I posted in the spoilers is new.

[Enter]

Like, that was the big point of my original callout that you said you understand. How can you claim to understand it and miss the whole goddamn point of it?

My point is this: focusing elsewhere isn't going to get us much further day 2.

[Enter]

You make a decent point.

I'll be back later with reads.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

PvtUrist is the only player who has not posted since you've been at L-1. What lurker are you proposing will hammer you?

Also, I request you post reads now, and if they change after intent is claimed, post again. This is better anyways because we can track your reads that way.

[Enter]

Spoiler 1: I really don't understand why you're scumreading him for his reads at all. Skellen was an obvious townie that he explained in 126 that makes sense (and honestly has me reading Skellen the same way), and the town at large seems to agree with that, although he was the first to declare it. Meanwhile on the low end of things Muh was accused of "active lurking" and picking on the easy stuff when I asked him about it and got 266 as an answer, which I could also see even though I personally think Elements is scummier.

I wouldn't mind an explanation on those reads, but the readslist looks fine in and of itself I'm not scumreading him for not giving explanations when you asked given his thoughts of you at the time. I think you complained about it not showing where null was as a point once too, but honestly that's just a formatting preference and not really important given that he's basically made a line of "A is townier than B is townier than C is townier than D..." and so forth.

For not having any reads in six pages to reads that move too quickly w/ no explanation, that's sure a jump for him.

Spoiler #2: Although I wouldn't call pushing on a lurker good, he had already townread Skellen for his sensible progression and revisionism and made the call that following Skellen's lead was better than his previous weak lurker vote, and I agree with that both on the Skellen TR and on the "improving your vote placement" front. It seems pretty self-explanatory why he'd improve a weak vote with a stronger one alongside someone he (and most of the town for that matter) trusted and townread, especially that early into the game when not many reads have developed yet.

Scenario: He votes for someone he thinks is scum, with another player that he thinks is town. Shortly afterwards he switches his vote to someone he thinks is town, with a player that he thinks is town.

Spoiler 3: As a general rule wagons are better than lone votes on Day 1, as a single vote is no concern when it takes 5 to lynch. As I said above it's not a strong vote, but it's not "damningly bad" or even too unreasonable when the game was still slow as it was at that point in time. Not good, but not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be, which is one reason why I've called you out for looking at things like this with a red-tinted lens.

Damning in that he believes she's scum.

But wait, his vote is better used on someone he thinks is town.

Spoiler 4: I'm gonna ignore the first quote in that block since it has nothing to do with the other three in it, finding its relevance in Spoiler 5 instead.

Let's be honest here, the information that we gave from his questions is stuff people can mainly get by reading the thread and paying attention to peoples reads. Neither question is harmful to the town whatsoever, and given his current behavior that has been following the same pattern I can see this as an exercise to try and help Town out Day 2 by giving them something to think about now. I don't see how you can possibly justify either question as "giving Scum information" when by default making a post at all gives scum information from what you've said anyways, and overall don't find this scummy.

As someone who played scum for the first time and had no idea who to kill, I VERY strongly disagree with you, especially the part about "who's your strongest town read if I flip scum." I'll leave it at that.

249 is a different beast altogether that doesn't connect to the others, but at least has some relevance to the accusations. Honestly though, it's spitting off the same thing I've said for ages now: hunting scum pairs at this stage of the game is folly. This is basically an IC info post with a suspicion with it, and the info ain't wrong nor the suspicions unusual. Altogether it's NAI, both scum and town could easily make this post with ease given its simple IC-esque nature and valid suspicion.

It's connected to the others in that he asks for pretty similar information to the information he says not to give out.

Spoiler 5: Once again this one comes down to perspective. This is either A: Town that has given up and doesn't believe that a player could be pushing those points so hard and believes that this is a massive scumplay (reinforced by post 252 that says effectively the same thing), or B: Scum that doesn't see a reasonable way out and wants to make sure the town stays distracted by keeping a 1v1 going. It was made in an emotional state where he couldn't possibly see a lynch outside of you two, which is why I don't think he'd complain about lynching outside of your 1v1 anymore and have pretty distinctly disregarded that as a "heat of the moment" thing given that he himself is breaking that to go look elsewhere.

I have a hard time seeing a town player deciding that whoever is tunneling him MUST BE SCUM and all other scumhunting must immediately stop in order to decide who is really scum between him and the player tunneling him. Especially when the other two lynch options are people that the first player has said look scummy at one point or another.,

I can't do much but leap to the former conclusion given how his current play hinders what would be scum!Loop's goal for this sort of post and the trail leading to it. He has effectively gotten over this and is now trying to give as much help as he thinks he can (although you're not helping by trying to counter all of this), while a scum!Loop here would rather just keep arguing with you to drag things out longer and keep town supressed underneath the argument. I just don't see a scum!Loop trying so hard to hunt for scum outside of you or making town think this much otherwise, especially when he's still at L-1 and could be lynched easily.

I don't see him helping at all. I ask for a post with descriptions of his reads and cases for people, and he won't give it to me. I ask him to explain where he thinks the line is for scum and he won't. What I see is him posting things that try and make him look town, but nothing actually town-motivated.

Spoiler 6: You said in that other game something along the lines of "I was trying to tunnel this person", and I had to read it twice myself to realize what I did in 301 (a.k.a you didn't call it a tunnel, but were trying to tunnel). I can easily see this as an honest mistake given that I did the same thing myself, and it certainly makes more sense than an intentional misrepresentation to make a point against you. There are so many other ways to make you look bad if that was his goal.

I disagree. I'll leave it there.

Spoiler 7: Once again I don't see any real connection between the two included quotes, so I'm splitting them up.

In post 299 he asks you to list your questions again. Just... really? You're calling him scum because he couldn't remember every single question you asked him? Quite frankly this is just him trying not to waste a whole bunch of time searching for every single question you ever asked him. This means nothing whatsoever.

And in 390 he tells Thespio to do his own homework instead of asking you for advice on what you're doing. Once again, nothing unusual or unreasonable given that he still suspected you at the time and people aren't going to be straight-up honest on their motivations if they're scum. There is once again nothing unreasonable or scummy about this.

No, they're related in that they show contrast between what he asks from people and what he provides. He's willing to tell Thespio to go search, but he won't ISO me and find the post I made specifically for him to answer questions from? Go back and look, all I did in response was quote myself.

Summary: I think he's at least null by this point, mostly because A: He's playing in a way that counters what his continued 1v1 with you would gain for scum!Loop (a.k.a. chaos, confusion, and a distraction to let his scumbuddy slip through the day unnoticed), and is now trying to actively work with other players to find out who is more likely scum now that he's written you out of the picture. This speaks leagues to his credibility as Town, and although I'm hesitant to say he's town outright I'm definitely not interested in lynching someone who is actively engaging with the town at large or trying what he can to help everyone scumhunt. Worst case scenario, we wait for day 2 and see what he does then.

And to counter the point of "being so hard to actually lynch": it's Day 1, people are still actively discussing things, and there's still plenty of time on the clock. Hammering now would be equivalent to a scumclaim with so much time and discussion going on, especially with several people waiting for Urist to come back and say things. It's not hard to lynch Loop because he's Loop, it's hard to lynch him because there's no reason to end the day. I think this would be easier for you to figure out if you weren't quite so tunneled and paying more attention to the game outside of your 1v1 quarrel.

He isn't working with anyone, the few comments he's made about who's scum and who's town go like this: Player makes comment about how they doubt Loopdan is scum, shortly after, Loopdan calls them town. Player makes comment making it seem like they think Loopdan is scum. Shortly after, Loopdan makes a comment about how he thinks they're scum. He's talked about mafia theory, sure, but he's also brought up Power Roles, made two opposing claims to Investigators, talked about mafia buddies, and generally tried to distract.

Maybe it's just me but this post feels riddled with excuses. Not sure how often you've played, but this is pretty uncommon for lynches to be this hard as far as I remember.

[Enter]

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

This ends the day way early, cutting off all other town discussion (which leads to better reads and more information for the town) and protecting the scumbuddy. Protecting the ally and reducing Town's ability to find scum is often critical enough for cornered or caught scum to hammer themselves to put a screeching halt on the day's momentum to hinder Town if they really don't think they can survive it.

But this wouldn't happen, because you're his ally, and the only reason he came back and started trying to post was when people started casting shade on you as his partner and you replaced his partner giving him hope. This is the reason you're both still tag-teaming for a lynch, this is the reason you're defending him while he was null-scum earlier, this is the reason you probed him for more information and tried to get him to give a good reason for me to be scum. This is the reason you blatantly disregard his inability to help town regardless of his remarkable ability to appear like he's doing so.

The other reason he shouldn't/wouldn't self-hammer is because of how hard it is to lynch scum. Even now there stands strong chance that he might not be lynched today. Scum would play at a massive disadvantage tomorrow considering scum:town goes from 2:7 to 1:6.

[Enter]

Never lynch Magik.

Glad to know all someone has to do to get a town read from you is ignore your blatant inconsistencies and defend you regardless of your stubborn decision to be as detrimental as possible. We have 8 pages of utter filth that help almost naught as far as sorting, but "activity looks like town" so you get away with some of this.

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

scum!loop didn't have the chance, he wasn't at L-1 until a couple pages ago, and the only thing that's happened since then is people obnoxiously defending you.

PEdit: I'd post something about "glad to know you also fall for the activity=town bias," but I've called his vote switch off of you in 215 weird for a while now, and you've only been working to prove that you're not interested in helping town for a while now anyways. You never had a single shred of reason to listen to my case in the first place, your sickening attempts to throw his train off the tracks reek of lies, manipulation, and intentional ignorance. Pretending you were listening in the first place was just for show and you know it. Hammer him, let's be over with this day, and we can lynch you tomorrow.

[Enter]

Like, dang your case works if you believe in the utter worst case scenario for literally everything he's made and ignore any possible good! Fancy that!

It's almost like I don't believe worst case, I believe the most likely scenario. Your dismissive behavior from the beginning gives me little doubt as to your alignment regardless, and it's clear you had no intention of trying to read and understand as you managed to "accidentally" ignore obvious inconsistencies between posts of his that I put together and you talk so much of how much he's helped town, when all he's done is shuffle a list of names without explanations around a couple times, call for PR action, and ask people who they think scum should kill tonight. Unless you have a better explanation as to why the player people townread the most if he flips scum is a question that should ever be answered if he's town?

No, I don't care to hear your fake excuses and your manipulative drivel.

PEdit: It's almost like I'm not accusing you of having votes on the same person at the same time, I'm accusing you of trying to get the lynch off of him. You're right though, I should have been more clear with my words so they're harder to twist away from my actual meaning.

[Enter]

Your excuse for why he hasn't been hammered yet is less than acceptable, by the way. Scum would have at least posted intent a while ago.

Funny how I feel like I flip almost any one of your posts over and it will say "Made in China" on the bottom.

[Enter]

Unless you have a better explanation as to why the player people townread the most if he flips scum is a question that should ever be answered if he's town?

Yeah... The better explanation is that I'm town so that question can be useful day2 when day1 reads are re-evaluated. But I've already said this so please just stop.

1. Not asking you.
2. This isn't helpful at all. Please stop.

[Enter]

This is the most emotionally taxing game of Mafia I've ever played.

And it's day1 in a Newbie.

Not as bad as my second onsite game. People scumread me right off the bat because I said "I could OMGUS this guy who voted me, or I could vote this other guy instead" in my opening post and they thought that was "thinking too much".

Only thing here is it's just one guy who on a really high horse, not the entire town. I have never wanted Town to ignore a townread before, but here we are with Hot Air McGee, calling the scumteam on Day 1 with lungs of steel and shouting garbage into the masses. I swear he's gonna be a liability if he keeps this tunneling shit up.

I'm glad you can prove the intelligence in your arguments by making indirect and passive aggressive comments at me as a person after your manufactured attempts at rebutting my case failed.

PEdit: Either you have a blind spot the size of a planet or you're making things up and just happen to ignore all the right things so that things line up for dan to not be scum.

The irony in your attack of my "bellowing" and ignorance towards Loopdan's spam is almost funny to me.

I'll case you tomorrow, if for some reason I'm still alive, but if I am, you only make it stronger every time you make some post coming at me personally instead of what I'm saying.

[Enter]

This day has gone on nine pages too long. Please flip Loopdan so we can all take a break, come back, and be reasonable in a few days. This is emotionally and physically exhausting, I don't want to go back and read the game thread while the blue pony is spouting insults at me and I'm not there to respond.

PEdit: I at least made the comment at you, instead of making it indirectly to my hype man. You're right though, I'm sorry for getting passive-aggressive.

Quick question, though, is it really that funny that you're feigning ignorance? I personally think it's sad. I'm tired. I'd really like to see this lynch go through without having to fight this lynch anyumore.

Ironic that you tell me I'm on a high horse when you're making comments like that, though.

Definitely sucks that we have to be on opposite sides of alignment this game, I personally think we'd have worked together great if I wasn't so tired of having to fight to get this mafia goon lynched.

[Enter]

Actually pretty much everything you've said is filled with irony, from accusing me of OMGUS to telling me to take a nap after personally attacking me. Trust me, it's not hard to get personal, I just have a line I won't cross.

[Enter]

Like the fact that you're implying that your dismissive attitude and calling me names isn't coming from a place of rage?

[Enter]

Nah, this is all just OMGUS and rage. Go take a nap or something.

Talk about a "high horse."

I'm tired. I've been in this game longer than you have. I fought through pages of Loopdan whining, Thespio immediately dismissing my argument, and I'm still here. I'm still on this wagon. We have discussed what happens in the case of Loopdan's flip too much for us to not flip him at this point. The push elsewhere is almost scummy based solely on the fact that we'd get so much information from his flip as town, even if for some unholy reason he managed to flip town. Of course I'm not the most understanding person at this point, the game thread has been filled with spam for the past couple days. Loopdan is posting wildly out of his mind throwing reads left and right - not only that, but his reads are constantly changing. He refuses to even post them unless he's at L-1, and it's not like it's even a huge deal for him to even post them. And yet the irony in all this is that you're accusing me of not finding reads elsewhere while ignoring all of this. This lynch was supposed to happen days ago. I do not have the desire/capacity to go back and case every single player like I will at the beginning of day 2, after we've confirmed the flip. My reads have changed barely not at all - all the people are still doing the same things I said they were doing in my last reads list except for the fact that you're posting more.

I don't want to do this day anymore. If for some reason you're town - which is quite possible due to the fact that I will admit that I'm exhausted and worried that Loopdan won't flip today and I'm not reading other people as well as I would if I weren't worried about people trying to undermine this lynch - please try to understand this. I'm not trying to come at you. I'm not trying to preach. I'm not trying to gloat. I'm not trying to be arrogant. I'm actually just pleading with you to trust me on this, as a player who has played this game for a long while now. My reputation is on the line. I am the worst scumhunter ever to exist if Loopdan is not scum. If he does not flip scum, I am more than willing to not push a soul tomorrow, I will just post reads and follow what the crowd says. I guarantee that tomorrow we will be set up after we lynch scum today.

I cannot think at this point. I just want this entire day to be over.

[Enter]

I don't even really care that you're coming at me personally. Sure, it hurts, but I'm aware that what you're saying is true, at least about it coming off as I'm on a high horse and I think I'm better than everyone else.

I promise I have my doubts, but we can sit here in analysis paralysis for the rest of our days, pondering the best lynch for day 1, or we can flip the guy we've been setting up to lynch for far too long now and everyone can go back and read the mess of a day this was. I promise I'm not usually as exhaustingly childish as I have deteriorated to (at least I hope not), and I hope you're aware that I have had more than my fair share of doubts on whether or not Loopdan is scum. I just cannot see a way out of it. Perhaps some of my arguments were a little reaching, but it is hard to see how I can ensure that this happens, because I have seen the things I need to see to know that the player sitting at L-1 right now is scum, and I know this lynch is right. I know everyone is looking for something different, but I can't find what it is that I need to show you in him so you can see what I see. From right here, it feels like I have served you a three-course meal and you pushed it off the table and fed it to the dog, because you could not recognize it as food. I am not interested in anything but a Loopdan lynch today. My capacity that I have allotted for this game is more than used up every day when I come back to the thread and ensure that I'm not stupid as I reread Loopdan's posts to make sure he's actually still scum.

[Enter]

@mod I'm V/LA this weekend until Tuesday

Quick post before I go:

Don't flip elements today. That's dumb. Flip Loopdan. Here's what we know when he flips:

He flips town (for some unknown reason):

Elements looks scummy
Pvt looks scummy
Magik looks towny
Munch looks null
Thespio looks towny
muh looks scummy
Skellen is town

-just looking at who wagoned him and why, who didn't and why, p much

He flips maf

Elements is town (he's trying to push an elements lynch instead of his own)
Pvt is town
Magik looks scummy
Munch looks scummy
Skellen is town
Muh is town


now let's say for some terrible reason you guys decide to up and flip elements (please don't):

here's what we know based on his contributions:

elements flips scum:
everyone currently on his wagon looks like town/less like scum

Elements flips town
no reads change

[Enter]

I can respect your wishes to wait for the Urist replacement. That's fine.

I'm not entirely sure I recall the case on Urist all that well though. Anyone have a refresher for that? I'm a bit busy staffing ye olde TTT server to look it up right now.

Set up an RP server and Ill join you.

Pvt essentially tunnelled me, didnt ever post reads but because this game was built of people pre new year i think he might have just been less active due to IRL. Still sketchy he focused me and never left, but what can you do?

This is wrong. He posted reads twice in the first six pages, which is more than can be said for loopdan. Stop making shit up.

[Enter]

am i missing some key element of this game?

Yes, that post came across as scummy.

No, I'm not in any way interested in lynching someone just because they made one somewhat scummy-sounding post over someone I legitimately cannot see a town-thought-process for.

Yes, I can definitely see town!elements posting that out of impatience and frustration, because I feel the same impatience and frustration.

No, I'm not interested in doing the same thing I've seen tens of times before, where we almost push a scum lynch, but last minute someone says something weird and dumb and gets lynched because they were impatient.

Yes, elements seems kind of weird to me.

No, you should not jump to that wagon, it reads sickeningly of scum looking for a wagon other than themselves.

Yes, I would support an element lynch tomorrow, given Loopdan for some reason flips town (which he won't).

No, you shouldn't lynch anyone but Loopdan, because if Loopdan flips scum, it pretty much proves elements is town at this point and he just made a scummy post.

Forget not that town can make scummy posts, but if a player consistently has a scummy mindset, they deserve a lynch.

[Enter]

No, you shouldn't lynch anyone but Loopdan, because if Loopdan flips scum, it pretty much proves elements is town at this point and he just made a scummy post.

I feel like there is scum between them, as well as scum between Loop and Pvt. im going to relook at elements.

It's almost like flipping Loopdan helps clear up Pvt and Elements.

[Enter]

Right, well im going to be honest though, loopdan flips town and I'm going to be angry with you. I dont want that so I will consider him as I look at elements.

1. He won't flip town. There is no town mindset behind his play. His posts reek of "things people might do as town" but none of them are actual contributions to the game. You ask him for a reads list and he posts a list of names that I'm almost certain he put about as much thought into as he did whether or not he should poop when he was sitting on the toilet. There wasn't even a line about where he thinks about where people stand as far as who's town and who's scum. He's currently withholding his reads until someone posts intent to hammer - at least he said so, but then someone posted intent to hammer and there was no reads list. He hasn't explained anything on his list of reads. There is no depth of thought in any of his posts - or even really any content he's produced - that I can follow as town. Yes some of his posts read similar to the ones a town player might make, but there not from town. He refuses to take any stance other than to townread people who townread him (with no explanation of why, of course) and to scumread people who scumread him (again, no explanation or thought).

2. I have spent this entire day pleading with you to trust me on this because I know that he is scum. I am currently angry with you and the fact that we have 10+ pages of almost spam-posting from Loopdan that you now have to wade through to find anything near what you're looking for. When I do get to sleep at night after tossing and turning about the possibilities of his flip and the ways he might turn out town, I continue to dream of the same, and my mornings re-reading to see if I'm going insane. I'm going V/LA this weekend (and I took a day and a half break the other day) because every time I come back to this game thread, I see daft, mindless posts of townies who would rather jump on a quick lynch of a player who makes a dumb post out of impatience than intelligent, thought-out attempts to put yourselves in the other players shoes and think through their gameplay and see if there is any substance to it. If you get a little angry because he flips town, that is but a fraction of what I have felt all game day. I do not care if you spend so much time looking everywhere else that you're too flustered to notice the scum right in front of you and that causes you to have a little feeling of discomfort.

[Enter]

Legitimately read through Loopdan's ISO and you will see a player that looks for townreads because he asks other players to invest themselves, but look a little closer and you'll see that he invests himself not at all. He is constantly asking for explanations where he has none, he is constantly asking for reads where all he has is a list of names that changes too quickly for him to even post them, he asks no one to talk about partners but asks for associative reads.

[Enter]

The biggest reason (IMO) for everyone's fear of scumreading him is his constant AtE (I just wanted this to be a positive experience, GL town. You are going to need it., putting this in my signature, etc.) and that's a problem. None of those posts are a good reason to townread anyone. They dirty, nasty posts that have nothing behind them and they should be read like a slimy weasel begging for it's life. They belong nowhere near this game and the fact that an IC is posting things like that is borderline unacceptable.

[Enter]

You claim that I only TR those who TR me and only SR people who SR me. This is objectively false and you have no excuse to not know this, as I've stated I'm TRing you. I'm also SRing Elements who is TRing me. I'm TRing Skellen who I think is SRing me.

And I have been posting my reads repeatedly. If they aren't crystal clear here is where I am right now:

Town:
Skellen
Magik
Enter
Munch

Town-lean:
Thespio

Scum:
Elements
Muh316
PvT

My bad, you've changed your reads in the last five pages of spam. Big surprise there.

[Enter]

The biggest reason (IMO) for everyone's fear of scumreading him is his constant AtE (I just wanted this to be a positive experience, GL town. You are going to need it., putting this in my signature, etc.) and that's a problem. None of those posts are a good reason to townread anyone. They dirty, nasty posts that have nothing behind them and they should be read like a slimy weasel begging for it's life. They belong nowhere near this game and the fact that an IC is posting things like that is borderline unacceptable.

Twas plenty of AtE in your own posting just a couple days ago ("Just lynch him, I'm tired"), so I don't know why you think this is "unacceptable" for someone else but not for you. Pot meet kettle?

Thanks for your list of reads based on his flip. That's quite informative.

My AtE was surrounded and filled w/ content, not bare, exposed, "wow I'm town pls don't kill me you're screwed if you do"

[Enter]

You actually started calling me names and attacking me personally, you're surprised I responded on an emotional level? Maybe this is a double standard, but the way I see it:

Coming at someone for being scum doesn't permit "you're hurting my feelings"

Calling someone names and complaining about how emotionally exhausting this game is is an emotional argument and demands an emotional response.

You'll notice I responded to Thespio's excuse of "being angry" with a bit of emotion as well.

[Enter]

Let me change my previous statement, though: prior to being called out you scumread the people scumreading you and townread the people townreading you, with the exception of Skellen (who you had already said was strong town and would have pinged hard if you'd swapped on them). You only changed your read on me after pushing me for lynch didn't work out in your favor. Your read changed on elements because it looked like you could get a lynch off on anyone but you.

[Enter]

I think you might be playing WIFOM with yourself and I don’t think it’s healthy

Yes, I probably am and its frustrating. That's also a reason why I want to let this go for now...

1. He won't flip town.

Wow, I kind of admire how sure you are about yourself. Do you really have no doubt and deny all possibility that he could just be town?

Read through his ISO and think to yourself: "Do I really want someone to be a townie if this is their contribution?"

Because I guarantee you my answer to that is a solid "No." Part of it is certainty, yes, but the other part is that I don't ever want to be a part of a game where someone can be this counter-productive with a WINCON that says they should be working with me. I get the feeling you haven't ISO'd him yourself, and I strongly encourage you to do so - and look at what he's actually saying/thinking, look for an actual town-motivated thought process. There is nothing there.

[Enter]

Ha. It wouldn't surprise me if I died N1, no.

There is a chance that he doesn't lynch me because the farther we get into this game day, the less mentally capable I become and the more I look like a VI. (Village Idiot) (Ha, maybe I reached that point pages ago when he should have been lynched.)

I don't particularly mind when people think I'm VI. I was lynched d1 p much every day when I was introduced to mafia and then ignored as VI once they figured out I was town. It took quite a bit of growth on my end for people to start listening and then my games got better. I haven't played in 2 years though, so if I'm going crazy that's fine. I'll be better and not losing my mind next game.

If you don't lynch him regardless of the numerous reasons I've given for him being a far better lynch than anyone else in this game, I'll be very disappointed in you, I might be a little angry, but I'll survive.

====

and for all you who are like "he's admitting he's going crazy, why should we listen to his reads," it's cuz I'm ACTUALLY p good at reads most of the time, IIRC, I just have a hard time understanding why people can't see I'm right. (wow. srry)

[Enter]

Oh, and when my games got better I was killed N1 every game I wasn't lynched D1. Lasting a long time in a mafia game didn't happen til I got on site.

[Enter]

They still treated me kinda VI tho, here. And I was still right. Mewbie 1477 - d1, You could be anyone - called out like half the scum team d1 (maybe more? I don't remember, and I don't want to look) - and those are just the games i remember. My point isn't that i'm a god and everyone should bow down to my scumhunting power, my point is that half the thread scumread him but it took pleading to get intent to hammer and two people unvoted, but one guy makes a kinda scuimmy sounding post and the whole world immediately stops what they're doing. look and think if you can see elements posting what he did as impatient town. Whatever. Alright I actually have to leave I'll see y'all later

[Enter]

One thing I want to leave you with is this:

Lynching town on day one is not uncommon. It should almost be expected that it will happen. So consider it this way, even if we do flip Loopdan and he happens to be town, we get a lot of reads out of it. Some people begin to look really scummy and others really towny. In addition, all day tomorrow, you won't have to beg and plead for reads from him with thoughts, because he won't be there. Even if elements is scum, making a scum slip and not town, he has been posting his thoughts. HIs thought processes can be followed. He works with town even when he's being scumread. He doesn't spam the thread with random comments, make off-the-cuff calls to PR as to what they should do, or cheer on whoever is townreading him. And we get barely any data from flipping him right now.

[Enter]

Enter, every time you show up you derail the conversation away from actual useful interactions and just rehash everything you've already said. It's not helpful. Even if you assume I'm scum, why wouldn't you want to see me engaging with other players? Don't you want your scum suspect to keep talking so they or their partner will reveal something?

You keep calling me spammy. I hope the other players will check my ISO and make that determination themselves. I've generated quite a lot of content that should be useful to town, regardless of what you think of my alignment.

You keep saying I'm not posting reads. Then when I show you where I've posted reads or post updated reads you move the goalposts and say I'm scum for changing my reads.

You keep saying my reads are based on how others are reading me. When I show you how this isn't true, you move the goalposts again by looking for a possible scummy explanation for why my reads aren't based on how others are reading me.

At some point I hope you will recognize that you don't just get to change your arguments every time they are shown to be wrong.

I'm sure after I flip you will burden the players left in this game with pages of text complaining about how you've never seen a town player play so scummy and how I ruined the game. But this one's on you.

1. no i don't i say at least a couple new things almost every time, because you give me something new to say almost every time. you're obviously not readying what i'm saying
2. you're not engaging w/ other players other than to jump on any wagon you can, call people scum who call you scum until you find out everyone disagrees with you and calling people town who call you town (or people it would be weird to flip on)
3. you've generated no useful content to town whatsoever i encourage anyone to read your iso because there's nothing there that is helpful that wasn't already known
4. i'm asking for reads with an explanation, which you still haven't given once. you've given me a constantly changing list of names. you haven't shown me this isn't true at all, you just showed that i wasn't specific enough in what i meant
find some reads that are your own opinion
5. i haven't changed any of my arguments, just fixed them after you cherry picked the crap out of them. everything i've said about you i stand by. stop taking every chance you can to misrep me and put words in my mouth that weren't there to begin with. stop cherrypicking my arguments. stop sheeping magichorse. have your own damn opinion that isn't just OMGUS
6. you haven't ruined the game, just posted 10+ pages of spam. congrats. i'm not gonna complain after you flip. even if i'm wrong (which i'm not) the game will get leagues better once your constantly destructive posts end. once you flip town will actually not think i'm vi anymore because of the red writing on your name.

[Enter]

If you think you're ruining the game, that's on you. I don't think you're ruining the game, I just think you're playing very poorly as scum, and unacceptably bad as town. If you flip town I'll be like "whelp, glad he's not part of the game anymore, game will get real easy now"

[Enter]

Forgive grammar phone posting

[Enter]

If we've been pocketed by Loop, you've been pocketed by Enter hard, but don't have any of the merits he does to make me believe you're town.

this is so wrong it's borderline funny. He sees and agrees with my arguments... that's not being pocketed...

Loopdan fucking posts and agrees with every word you say, encourages you after your posts, claims you're town, claims everyone should listen to you... I haven't even interacted with muh.

I feel like every interaction with magic goes like this:

Magic: "guys this person is doing this thing that's scummy"
Me: "loopdan is doing that but worse"
Magic: "yeah but see how loopdan could be doing that from a town perspective? why do you only see the negative side of what he does?"

this game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZbqAMEwtOE

[Enter]

@Enter Stop interacting with me if this is all you're gonna do.

stop doing things that you don't want to be called out for.

[Enter]

stop doing things that you don't want to be called out for.

Stop making up things to call me out for then.

I'm not making anything up. I don't have to. You live it for me. Really, though. The muh argument is really dumb. The one you just made is "i disagree with the argument for loopdan, we should watch this guy"

PEddit: no, I'm not. I'm calling you out for doing dumb stuff. Like the stuff I called you out for,

[Enter]

I'm calling you out for calling other people scummy for the same reasons I call loopdan scum, but you manage to see a townside to his behavior, but not a townside to everyone elses.

And even if I was calling you out for disagreeing with me, you're telling people to watch muh (i guess implying he's a potential lynch?) because you disagree with his argument. Really? which is the worse of the two?

PEdit: lol he won't flip green, but if you really think so, why don't you flip him?

why are you asking me a leading question?

[Enter]

to rephrase my question, why don't you flip him and we find out? last i heard i thought he was null. what moved him to green for you? he was scum a while ago

[Enter]

muh didn't sheep me, he had his own reasons for voting.

[Enter]

Viewing the game through the lens that everything Loop does or says is scummy doesn't really help any other slot.

I agree with your views on tunneling almost. except i'm not just coming to the thread sure he's scum. i'm looking at his posts and they come across as scummy.

[Enter]

muh is town because most of his thoughts are also my thoughts.

magik is scum because he seems capable of playing the game well and outright refuses to in favor of not lynching loopdan

[Enter]

muh has reasoning of his own. it just also happens to coincide with mine, because he's town, and also really capable, unfortunately, you're scum, so you're just gonna keep making false accusations to make him look worse. there's a difference between muh having complete thoughts that are like mine and the outright sheep that loopdan did. oh wait - you're working w/ loopdan. Ouch. srry

[Enter]

muh has reasoning of his own. it just also happens to coincide with mine, because he's town, and also really capable, unfortunately, you're scum, so you're just gonna keep making false accusations to make him look worse. there's a difference between muh having complete thoughts that are like mine and the outright sheep that loopdan did. oh wait - you're working w/ loopdan. Ouch. srry

The only thing you're doing here is provoking me intentionally. Stop it.

no, what i'm saying is things that are true, and calling you out on your constant bs.

stop treating everything that disagrees with you as bad town or scum. it's so OMGUS

magik is scum because he seems capable of playing the game well and outright refuses to in favor of not lynching loopdan

Why is lynching Loopdan right this moment "playing well"? Convince me of this.

because he's scum.

[Enter]

And no, the answer isn't "He'll flip scum".

I know for one that Elements still has reads to post that I'd like to see and think about overnight at the very least.

except it is. even you yourself have said he looked slightly scummy and now for no reason whatsoever (other than he's your buddy) it's slowly drifting back up to "towny". really.

even though he's doing all the things you call everyone else out for. stop telling me to stop, and stop coming up with reasons to drag out today. this day has gone on long enough. elements will be here the next day (because you'll kill me tonight) and you can ask him then

[Enter]

how about you ask loopdan for a list of reads with indepth explanations like me and elements has posted. or you post a list yourself.

[Enter]

7. MissDeadbeat/MagikHorse: Actually nothing this game. Loopdan was awful quick to get his vote off MissDeadbeat. This signals to me that she's the most likely here to be scum. In addition, he took full responsibility for his vote on her. My suspicion is that he saw Thespio vote her, thought to himself "Oh crap better bus her, it's maybe over for her" and then swapped to PvtUrist once he saw a way out.

Are you maintaining this line of thought / scumread on Horse's slot? I could see this kind of read being relevant with a new player but not against the IC. Why would one off vote from Thespio be enough to convince Scum!Loop their partner is going down?

It's flawed in context as well since most of the feedback was that Thespio was scummy for this policy vote. The wagon wasn't going to go anywhere. This is what I mean with the lens.

I understand that these were hypothetical teams but this was your most solid pick for Loops partner and it doesn't hold up at all.

It isn't enough to convince scum!loop his partner is going down. it follows with him getting more and more comfortable as game goes on. he does it to distance. there's no threat of his partner going down, so putting his vote on for just a minute helps.

when that was the only reason magic was scum w/ loop, yeah it was pretty slim. now that loop has called a lot of the other people scum or tried to start a legitimate wagon on them it starts to look a lot more realistic.

[Enter]

Lol. Every time you post, loop, i get excited, because it's always some strange new way to misunderstand, fail to follow, or misrepresent something.

Elements and Muh are both people Loop has tried to wagon, and I feel like he's pushed Pvt as scum before as well? Yes, Pvt has been deep in his scum reads, but that doesn't matter because I still think Pvt is pretty obv town if Loopdan flips scum anyways.

[Enter]

So another trend I'm noticing is the early agreeability with enters.... arrival. What I mean is that there was 0 resistance to Enters case and in fact every townread on Loop flipped to scum on him.

Which could be Enter being charismatic but I feel like there's more going on there. Probably low activity or new scum. Clashing with Enter here wod be attention scum doesn't want and in the case of a new slot rolling scum it is a lot easier for them to simply appease prominent voices in the town.

Just my take.

You had to be there and understand the relatively large gaps in time -- to put things in perspective, the game thread was relatively stagnant and silent when I came in, with the players having resorted to lynching lurkers due to not finding scum amongst players, I think people were looking for someone to scum read.

Look at the time between loopdan's posts, too. He quickly gives up and stops playing for a while there, but it's somewhat hard to tell because you have no concept of time when you reread. (at least I don't)

PEdit: what do i have to complain about? you're actually working with me kinda. i'll read through your post in a bit, thanks for that.

[Enter]

It's almost funny to me how much of your play seems geared towards attacking me, but I guess that's because I've been a bit of a jerk, huh? I'm starting to wonder if you disagree with me only because you want to be right and see me be wrong, and not for any fact-based reason and that's why it always seems like when you respond to my posts you're responding to something I don't feel like I ever said. That makes a bit more sense than the speculation that you're just scum. And it would explain why you come across as intelligent and well-thought, but your posts to and about me seem so ill-informed - as if your desire is more to be right over me instead of finding scum.

To be honest with you, I wasn't trying to dig that you hadn't posted a reads list, I was trying to get at the fact that I still haven't gotten a satisfactory reads list from Loopdan, but oh well. I don't think that will ever happen. I'm really glad you're trying to help, though? I feel like the way we met, and the way I was so abrasive is what put you off.

[Enter]

It's almost funny to me how much of your play seems geared towards attacking me, but I guess that's because I've been a bit of a jerk, huh? I'm starting to wonder if you disagree with me only because you want to be right and see me be wrong, and not for any fact-based reason and that's why it always seems like when you respond to my posts you're responding to something I don't feel like I ever said. That makes a bit more sense than the speculation that you're just scum. And it would explain why you come across as intelligent and well-thought, but your posts to and about me seem so ill-informed - as if your desire is more to be right over me instead of finding scum.

To be honest with you, I wasn't trying to dig that you hadn't posted a reads list, I was trying to get at the fact that I still haven't gotten a satisfactory reads list from Loopdan, but oh well. I don't think that will ever happen. I'm really glad you're trying to help, though? I feel like the way we met, and the way I was so abrasive is what put you off.

Yes, you are very much being a jerk, both to me and Loopdan. Why else do you think I've been trying to interact with you as little as possible? Apparently saying "Stop interacting with me. Go away" several times hasn't been enough to drill this point home until now, and I'm saddened by the fact that it's taken you this long to figure it out.

Admittedly I do want to spite you with a Loopdan green flip, but it's because I think that's the one and only thing that will actually put your ego in check and make you actually start listening to differing opinions instead of merely calling then "ill-informed", thus improving you as a player for the coming days should you survive. Like, really, if you think I'm so intelligent why do you think I cannot think for myself? I can't be both intelligent and dumb at once, yet this seems to be what you're implying.

Also noting that once again you have flipped from raging at me to total calm (to seem like less of a bad person?), just like you did earlier to try and convince me to hammer Loopdan a day or two ago with your "I'm tired. Lynch Loopdan" speeches. Doesn't change much because you've already burned the bridge between us so badly that I never want to play with you again if you're legitimate town, so this sudden nicey-nice change does little to persuade me of anything.

You asking me to do things like try and show people (at first it was you, but then I realized that you're taking offense at the fact that I'm calling you out over listening to what I'm callling you out over it) should not be indicative of your feelings being hurt, because me saying that you're doing something wrong isn't me being a jerk. Me doing something in a way that is offensive could easily be me being a jerk. I have and pretty much always will call my friends out when they're screwed up. Allowing someone to live in a screwed up manner is meaner than telling them so.

I think you're capable but either biased or scum. Both of those explanations seem pretty viable to me. I've read your arguments and your failure to see and understand things I expect you to see and understand both imply that I'm right in this.

And let's make this clear: I want no bridge between myself and loopdan. I do not want to be aligned with that slot. There is nothing there that can even be skewed as protown, IMO. The fact that you're talking about you two as if you're the same slot is one of the larger reasons that I'm certain that you're either strongly biased in his favor or aligned with him.

The rapid switches in tone, BTW, should prove to you that I AM coming fresh to the game thread, because I'm constantly refreshing and loooking at this in a new way, which is why I can see things like you getting your feelings hurt. If you are town, please ACTUALLY LOOK and seriously consider what I've been saying -- and remember also that it wasn't myself that started attacking me or saying things like "player is badtown" or calling me names, if me being a jerk is that is preventing you from doing that.

[Enter]

I may not be gaining anything from you right now, but our interactions will still be here after I die tonight.

PEdit: which is why it should have ended pages ago. Please just post intent. The whole dragging things out to look town thing is dumb.

[Enter]

Yes I realize he's at l-2

[Enter]

I may not be gaining anything from you right now, but our interactions will still be here after I die tonight.

PEdit: which is why it should have ended pages ago. Please just post intent. The whole dragging things out to look town thing is dumb.

Intent to never talk with Enter again.

There, you have my intent.

Isn't that ironic?

Also I wasn't talking to you, but if you'll hammer, that would be great. Even just the vote to put at L-1 would help a lot.

[Enter]

Never lynch Magik.

If there's a doc they should protect Magik. He may be your only hope.

Also what Magik just is pretty damn townie.

I'm not making anything up about pocketing. I don't know how this isn't apparent to you, Magik, but it's p obv to me.

I thought it was p obv to you, actually, when you posted this:

Stop repeating my questions Loop >.<

====

Enter, here's the thing. You think that because Magik and I are supporting each other that we must be scum-buddies, or that one of us is pocketing the other. I'll give you that there is a

small

chance Magik is scum and realized he could buddy me by being the only voice taking up my side against you. But I don't see that as very likely, for two reasons: 1) He didn't really come over to my side until you laid into him. 2) It's super high effort for a low payoff for scum!Magik to play out day1 like this.

I think more than anything we are reading the game in a similar way and have both felt what it's like to be at the end of one of your wall onslaughts. I'm sure that town!Magik has a place in his thoughts where I could be scum, just like I do with him, because we are both experienced enough to know that skillful players can mimic town very effectively. But this doesn't feel like I'm being pocketed. He has an underlying suspicion on my alignment, and it's hard to get that balance right when you are scum trying to pocket town.

No, that's not why I think you're scumbuddies. I think you're scumbuddies because you say a crap ton of dumb stuff and then magik is better at looking less dumb and you cheer him on. Constantly.

Magik is scum because he saw you as scummy but only moved his read farther from that when I started calling him out on not dropping intent to hammer and you being in a different place in his reads list than his play represents.

You're not reading the game in a similar way at all, you're just saying everything magik says again, except in dumber words, at this point, after you said a million things that he didn't agree with.

[Enter]

I honestly don't understand how loopdan has managed to worm his way out from being no.1 lynch target

see what i mean about hard to get a day 1 scum lynch? if he wasn't scum, scum would gladly have hammered by now.

[Enter]

Elements is still possibly town. At least put loopdan at L-1

[Enter]

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Not really, a self sacrifice, as i explained when i offered it, does alot more then give information. It also helps remove townies that distract from the goal, which at that point I was. Re read my explinations. His is strait up calling someone town, then saying lets kill them. If he explained it beyond just repeating it MAYBE I would buy it, but he isnt, so im not.

Are you arguing that Loopdan isn't distracting town from the goal? You've called him scum, and his play has been consistently such throughout the game. Don't Lynch someone who's made one scummy post over a consistently anti-town player.

[Enter]

I think Elements is town. Please unvote him. If I could get to my computer right now I would case him for you.

[Enter]

Elements seems like he talks weird and makes posts that don't come across right, but if you look at the intent it looks towny.

[Enter]

Munch. What did you think of elements reads list?


What did you think of his points on loopdan?

What did you think of the list of names loopdan has posted that shifts around every couple of pages? What do you think about the large amounts of effort he put into them so we can follow his thought processes?

Have you ever played scum before? I have. When I do, I don't want to do anything, for fear I'll screw something up. I want to contribute as little actual game information as possible. I don't want my reads list to have explanations, because then I have to put effort in to maintain consistency.

Look at the effort from both players. Look at the type of posts they're making.

PEdit: ok here's the thing, town makes a couple posts that look scummy- but most town posts that look scummy- only LOOK scummy. If you think about what they're actually saying, it often comes off as town. If you get nitpicky with wording you can find scum in almost any towny, that's why my posts are so long because I don't like being nitpicked, it's happened a lot to me, cuz I talked weird like elements.

Scum, on the other hand, will try to look towny, but the content of their posts and the motive willl be scummy. Their posts will lack effort. They'll try and make you think they're town through manipulative posts like "GL town, you'll need it" and "If you flip me, town will be down a player," because it's easier to appeal to your emotions and your fears than it is to put in effort to come across as consistent in your reads and the lynches you push. Scum posts will often be low effort, because the only thing they have to do during the day is stay alive and find PRs if they're feeling strong.

[Enter]

A lot of the wordings you're getting on elements for are wordings I used when I was new to mafia. I got lynched a lot for this reason. Elements posts mean things that look town. He's put in a lot of effort, even without prodding, because his job during the day is to catch scum. I can follow his thought processes. This is why it's dangerous for scum to post reads with details, because they're lying, so they don't want you to catch them. And if they post and constantly share thoughts, you can follow them and try to check for continuity. There isn't any thoughts there for loopdan. Did you see how quickly his reads list changed? Did you see how many people he tried to push a Lynch on? Don't you see how contrary his play is now, to the beginning of the game when he was calling everyone town and wasn't pushing reads at all? And I can't see his thoughts. He makes comments, yes, but rarely are there thought processes I can follow. He refuses to explain his reads. He went absent for a day and a half partly because he just needs to stay alive, and if my wagon on him died down, his job was done.

[Enter]

Ok so here's a difference between a post coming from scum and a post coming from town:

If Loopdan-Enter is TvT then scum have no reason to advance the game.

So who isn't advancing the game?

ATTENTION INVESTIGATIVE PR: If I die here, investigate Enter tonight, and if he's town, think hard on this .

See how this post doesn't look all that bad? Except he calls me town and then tells town PR to invest me, which is super weird, especially because, as scum, he has an idea of what PRs town has. So basically what it looks like he's trying to do is convince PRs to investigate a town read instead of investigating scum. I won't talk anymore about what PRs we might have, but think on that.

Here's the post before it if you don't believe he thinks I'm town here:

Yeah I've slowly come to the realization that Enter is likely town here. What Magik just said is pretty much reading my mind.

___________

Here's the post you got on elements for saying:

Elements

Everything posted by this slot is something I would post as town.

Current Read -

C

o

n

f

i

r

m

e

d

T

o

w

n

See how this is just him saying something in a different way than you expect? I used to say stuff like this all the time. I think I still do, I just explain the heck out of myself when I do and end up with a wall, because I'm afraid of being misuy and taken for scum. There's nothing harmful to town here, or in the post you got on him for talking about the flips between him and muh, it's just a different way of saying it.

[Enter]

Misuy is supposed to be misunderstood, and elements is prolly just town, you're just nitpicking his words.

[Enter]

What did you think of the list of names loopdan has posted that shifts around every couple of pages? What do you think about the large amounts of effort he put into them so we can follow his thought processes?

I think you're exaggerating. I think he posted readlists 3times (in 30 pages!), so it's not every few pages. And I don't think it shifts around that much. You know, people's readings usually change. I have never seen readings so set in stone as yours are. And he did explain his reasoning throughout his posts, but I agree it was not that detailed.

Look at how many times loopdan has posted a reads list in the second half of the game and hlook at how often literally every other player has posted reads. PvtUrist is the only one that comes close, and his we're both in the first half of the game.

Then compare that to the fact that Loopdan had literally only one read of note. Yes 3 doesn't seem like that many until you compare it to himself (earlier in the game) and all the other players.

By explanations, see how everyone else makes big posts explaning everything and he says "just read my comments and figure it out" --- this is what I mean

[Enter]

Have you ever played scum before? I have. When I do, I don't want to do anything, for fear I'll screw something up. I want to contribute as little actual game information as possible. I don't want my reads list to have explanations, because then I have to put effort in to maintain consistency.

Look at the effort from both players. Look at the type of posts they're making.

No, never played scum and I don't have much expiriences. This is also why I am easily persuaded to follow more expirienced players reasoning. But I try not to do that and gain experience having my own reads and reasoning. You being more experienced doesn't mean you can be wrong (or scum - not that I think you are in this case).
And about explanations - a lot of people say it is newbies who have a need to explain every detail of their thought process.

I agree. I can be wrong and I am often wrong. I'm prolly wrong on magik, it might be thespio that is scum with him. I don't know, and at the moment I'm not particularly concerned with who the other scum is.

I don't know that I've necessarily seen newbies be particularly verbose about their reads, I think it matters what type of player it is. My first newbie game on site most of the newbies just lurked and added a random thought here and there (iirc). Do you not see and agree with what I am saying about effort applied and thought processes you can follow, though?

[Enter]

They'll try and make you think they're town through manipulative posts like "GL town, you'll need it" and "If you flip me, town will be down a player," because it's easier to appeal to your emotions and your fears than it is to put in effort to come across as consistent in your reads and the lynches you push.

I can only say that I didn't like those posts either.

Right. So the thing you should look at is the fact that he should have a marked amount of experience as an IC. He should already know that he should show he is town, not tell. Those posts aren't necessarily indicative of scum, because townies, especially newbies, will post like that. But they should know better by the time they reach his slot. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, that's true, though, and I refuse to condemn someone specifically off of posts like that. It's more the fact that he has to rely on this to prove he's town.

Also I think you should read elements arguments for loopdan again, I think. He makes some points I havent made yet (especially as far as specifics).

Above all I do want you to figure out this game for yourself, because mafia is super fun, and there's nothing like catching scum and getting a push for their Lynch on day one when it seems like the world is against you. My advice is to recognize everyone here is human. I'm fallible, the IC is falling let, and everyone else in this game is fallible. Everyone could be wrong. I only say this because you seem intimidated by my experience and Loopdans IC. Relax. If you vote elements and stick with it, I'll be disappointed, but I doubt anyone will think you're dumb or anything for voting the wrong person. Maybe I overstep, but I get afraid that people will think I'm dumb a lot.

[Enter]

Sorry my words are weird cuz autocorrect... Just... Don't be afraid to vote loop just cuz he's IC, I guess. :/

[Enter]

Muh, myself, and elements are all people he's pushed for lynch on.

It's not surprising to you how easily he gets reads now that I'm here pushing his lynch when he had nothing before I showed up?

[Enter]

And sorry for asking again, but I do want an answer- do you agree that your scumreadon elements is largely the way he words things?

PEdit: loopdan tried to read me as scum for several pages until magik told him "no."

[Enter]

@RCE would you agree that it seems strange for the loopdan wagon to survive for so long without being hammered if loopdan wasn't scum, regardless of constantly pressure to do so? Even if you put both scum players as having already been on the wagon, we've had more than 6 people vote him, so we've had enough for scum to hammer if it wasn't his buddy.

[Enter]

He said you are likely town and used 2x if. And when he would flip town, you probably would be scumread to some extent. But I generally don't like people to tell others how to use their PR.

would you agree that it's generally harmful to try to tell PRs how to do their job, since PRs know their alignment and do not know the alignment of the person telling them waht to do?

I agree it is nothing harmful and maybe I am nitpicky, but it still sounds weird to me.

I agree it sounds weird but it's not bad. It doesn't put anyone in a weird position, it just saying something different tahn you expect to be said.

This is an example of townies making scummy posts - the post isnt actually scummy- there's no apparent ill intent behind it, it just reads weird. Making scum motivated posts - posts that drive an agenda for scum, like making sure the PRs target someone other than your scum buddy, are different.

[Enter]

From what I've read Loopdan stops at multiple points to evaluate if your continued push comes from scum or town. But for the sake of argument let's say he didn't evaluate this on his own and only came to that conclusion because of Magik.

Is it then more likely a team of Magik/Loop openly discuss changing their tune on the slot pushing them the hardest? Keep in mind scum have daychat in this setup. I think if the goal is to appease you maybe but it doesn't look like either slot is pandering to you.

Especially in the case of Magik who has tried to get you back on the logical track as opposed to the emotional read being pressed.

Consider scum!loop pushing to see if there's interest for a Lynch on me for a couple pages, finding some people saying it's possible, then no one votes me. Then he votes to see who follows and magik who is universally town read tells him no, along with other town players. I've found a lot of scum will base their reads off town, and besides it would be silly to try and tunnel me for days on end when no one will lynch me if his butt is on the line
It makes more sense for him to try to Lynch someone who is likely to be lynchable so that he doesn't get lynched himself.

I don't know magiks aligent, and I'm not particularly concerned ATM. I'll case him next game day if I'm still alive, casing him right now would be silly, because my case will be based on loopdan flipping scum

[Enter]

Keep in mind scum have daychat in this setup.

I somehow missed this. This changes my reads a bit, I think, but not too much. I'll think about it over the game night. It does make it look extra strange loopdan perking up and trying again as soon as MDb got replaced.

[Enter]

It doesn't really change anything big other than maybe my read on magik and thespio, but loopdan is the flip that matters today. I'm not sure I follow your other post.

[Enter]

Not really, there's actually a lot to unpack there and would probably take multiple posts to go through the scenarios. The overarching point is hesitation.

The way the game is now it's either you or loop. I would argue if Loop is town here Scum have taken your side in the argument so a townflip on Loop is more damning to them than it is to you. I say that because even what looks to be Dan's side (Magik....maybe skellen?) Have all townread you as well. So it wouldn't be hard to explain off if you end up being wrong.

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here.

[Enter]

I get the part about implying nonvoters are likely the buddy. It would be a matter of sorting his interactions with them and how and when they voted/unvoted.

[Enter]

Yes, conversely if Loop flips town voters are doing the buddying. Buddying you, get what I mean?

I follow and agree. Which is a big reason that, if both are town, loop is a better flip.

[Enter]

The series of posts where magik tells loop no that I was referencing

I'm skeptical of something this old, especially since the whole point of that thread was to complain about a tactic that annoyed him. Can you find a game where he's done this strat himself to back this up in any way and prove that he would actually do something like this?

RE Muh: I'm sitting neutral on him right now. Despite the potential scumminess of his vote on you, I like that he immediately questioned Thespio for voting the lurkers in 101. In general a vote on a lurking slot isn't going to get you any information when you could be pressuring a more active slot to at least learn some things about them, and calling him out on that earns some town points from me to even the scales.

One game isn't enough for me to meta read someone on, and it was a replace-in quite a ways into the game too. The fight with NSG also seemed to consist of a whole lot of little posts, but nothing this big. A bunch of little posts sounds different to me than a few big ones, although I still agree that he's tunneled at least a little bit.

Either way that game feels radically different than what he's doing here, and this whole "He complained about something 3 years ago" thing doesn't really make me believe in it. This feels like a massive stretch to me to try and link these together in this manner.

@Magik - Don't forget that other post where he categorizes his own play as tunneling NSG was posted 10 days ago. This inconsistency on how he views his play here is more than a curiosity.

He said "trying to tunnel" in that other game, which implies that he's telling the truth that he never quite felt like he really got into a full-blown tunnel as he planned and hurts that as an inconsistency, unless I think he's lying when he's already been hammered and the game lost for some reason. By that point I don't have much reason to expect lies from him.

I don't really see any reason why this tunnel (which was admittedly pretty small when you started calling it that) couldn't come from Town and has to come from Scum specifically, and that's my big hangup right now. Why is this a scum tunnel and not a town tunnel besides your flimsy meta reasonings?

[Enter]

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=10673734#p10673734]post 855[/url], Munchmellow"][quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=10673660#p10673660]post 841[/url], Enter"]And sorry for asking again, but I do want an answer- do you agree that your scumreadon elements is largely the way he words things?[/quote]

This is just a part of it. I don't agree with his scumreads - you say how many thoughts Elementa put in that. But his scumreads are me, PVT and Loop. I find it suspicious, how he didn't have a problem understanding what I was asking in [post=#10663043]319[/post] and answered it, but then later says it makes no sense. The case on Pvt is really weak and shallow. And for Loop, there was so many things said before from your side that it wasn't really hard to find reasoning for his vote.
And one more thing was, how he stated loop is town, but would hammer him early - because that would give us info. But he didn't want to give a straightforward answer if he would vote muh instead of his townread - loop. IDK why. He wanted to stay in the middle. Why not say - I think you are scum and muh is town and won't vote him. Or say I think you are both town and push my lynch as his scumread. I can't see this coming from town. You can speak your mind as town.[/quote]

The post on you could be that he responded at the time out of guy without checking, then when he came back later his brain was not in the same place when he originally answered so he went back to see what prompted you to ask those questions and became confused.

The case for Pvt has always been weak and shallow, no matter what player it was coming from, and no one is pushing a Lynch on him.

The loopdan complaint that he can't come up with anything new seems a bit silly.

As far as the conversation with the muh flip, it looks like elements and loopdan were having a discussion over hypotheticals as far as what flip is better, so his answer makes sense, and your reason here seems like you're getting on him for the way he said it and it looks fine to me.

[Enter]

In post 842, Munchmellow wrote:
He said you are likely town and used 2x if. And when he would flip town, you probably would be scumread to some extent. But I generally don't like people to tell others how to use their PR.
would you agree that it's generally harmful to try to tell PRs how to do their job, since PRs know their alignment and do not know the alignment of the person telling them waht to do?

I don't know if I would call it harmful, but I find it unnecessary and annoying. I think being a PR would be fun and everyone has his logic and idea how to use it.

Ok pretend for a minute that Loopdan is scum. Would it be harmful for him to be telling town PRs what to do then? What if he was telling them to investigate someone he knew wasn't scum because someone who was scum was under suspicion?

[Enter]

I disagree. I'm stuck at my phone ATM, but I really think elements flip clears pretty much nothing for us. I honestly think it might be a difference in how we read people, then, but especially based on Loopdans interactions with other players and vise versa it gives me a lot to work with when casing someone the next day.

Elements ... I feel I have almost nothing. Going purely by votecount isn't going to get me very far, either.


Maybe it's just a olaystyle difference, but your post pinged me as straight wrong. I'll look at it more closely once I get to my computer

[Enter]

The loopdan complaint that he can't come up with anything new seems a bit silly.

I didn't mean that he should come up with sth new. I'm just saying that if he is scum and loop town, there was enough material already posted, so he didn't have to try hard to find reasoning for loops scumread.

Ok, I follow. But it seems your scumreadon of elements is a.. word choice and depth of thought scum read. Would that be correct?

[Enter]

Yes, sure it would be harmful than. If PR would actually listen to him. But as I understood Loopdan, he was saying after he flips - and after a flip you would know he is scum and wouldn't listen to him anyway.

I'm going to be honest with you, I just don't like it. It looks bad to me, I can see how I, as a PR, might accidentally respond in a way that gave myself away, or still investigated the person he said to out of lack of knowing who to investigate. It's not the strongest argument, I'll admit.

PEdit: is bussing actually high in newbie games? That feels weird to me. Again this is research I'll put more time into after the flip.

[Enter]

Ignoring bussing probabilities ( I expected them lower) : loopdan town, bussing is 1 vote from a player who doesn't care who's lynched as long as it isn't them
Loop is scum: 2 votes from players who don't care who's lynched as long as it's not them.


Especially with all the people who have scumreadon loop, scum could p easily have hammered and got away with it.

[Enter]

@munch another thing to consider: elements was townreading loop at a time that was pretty easy for him to get away with hammer ... This doesn't really benefit him as scum unless he's scum w/ loop which seems really unlikely

[Enter]

Well you say that but every hammer is scrutinized, that's part of the hesitation aspect. Of course that's dependent on who you play with.

That's fair, but scrutiny doesn't mean the correct answer will be reached, and there is so much wifom around a hammer. I've never seen someone's analysis of a singular hammer get anywhere useful.

[Enter]

Ok, I follow. But it seems your scumreadon of elements is a.. word choice and depth of thought scum read. Would that be correct?

This combined with him being evasive about voting Muh/reasons for early wanting to hammer his townread. All of this. It just makes me doubt townie thing that he did ebough, that I would rather lynch him than Loopdan. But I am not as sure in this as you are in Loop being scum.

@Enter, if Loop flips town, who would be your scumread then? And would it be the same person as if we lynch Elements and he would flip scum?

If loop flips town, I go back to square one and I have to reexamine everything. I honestly don't think I've ever been so confident about something in my life, although to be fair, I haven't looked at my read on him since Thursday, so over this weekend I've gotten kinda confbiased. I trust myself from Thursday, though.

As far as who's scum if elements flips, I don't know. I have no clue who his partner might be.

TBH I should prolly be asleep right now, but I stayed up so that if someone did flip elements while I was sleeping I wouldn't feel bad that I didn't do my best to stop it.

[Enter]

I'm sorry I'm having trouble processing your information, I'll answer your questions better tomorrow, Munch.

[Enter]

I'm warning that hammering elements will cause him to flip town and then I'll have to case loopdan again tomorrow.

[Enter]

Oh, I see what you're saying. So basically what you're saying is we take a chance. Ok let's talk math for a second:

Mathematically speaking it is better to flip Dan, because we get a lot more even flip, and both pools are a bit smaller. I can get more into it if you want, but this is why I was confused by RCE saying it's better to flip elements... That's not true unless he flips scum, and that's a smallish chance that I'm not willing to take. I also don't read him as scum.


But yeah, so my job involves troubleshooting, and we talk about troubleshoot theory and one of the things we discuss is this: even if you think it might be somewhere else, methodically narrowing down where issue can be by splitting issue in half over trying to get too specific too quickly is better a larger portion of the time.

[Enter]

No.

[Enter]

I am not really disagreeing with that as I think so too. I am just looking into it as the Elements lynch is set in stone with RCE's intent to hammer. I wouldn't even mind it going by the scum-Elements scenario, I think what is bothering me too much is the scenario where he flips town (which is possible imo). That wouldn't leave any useful conclusions in cornering town and scum roles. It's kind of putting all one's eggs in one basket. Maybe I am just too focused on the information gain though.

I am pretty convinced even that elements is just town who says things and does things weird. Does anyone have a case for elements that differs from munch's

[Enter]

Wow alright. Now that we've gone there.

[Enter]

I feel like we could have waited on that, but whatever.

[Enter]

I feel like we could have waited on that, but whatever.

I wanted to wait longer, but with time zone difereances ill be asleep for the last 8 hours of day 1

Ok, that's fair. At least that makes end of day easy

[Enter]

Pushing a Lynch right now that isn't Dan is such a ridiculously bad idea. Considering even the fact that the player might not have time to claim. The way that last post seems to be looking for support for lunch on anyone but dan doesn't look good on you, magik.

[Enter]

Don't mind me, just trying to pre-emptively counteract the large amount of inevitable "he hard buddied scum there's no way he could be scum" argument that's about to come your way as soon as Loopdan flips.

I'm not quite sure whether or not I think you're town or not, but I've played enough mafia to know what everyone else will think, and it would be pretty disgusting to have an unlynchable maf goon wandering about doing as he pleases.

[Enter]

I'm not quite sure whether or not I think you're town or not,

this reads weird and I'm sorry about that.

[Enter]

What I think you're doing is getting yourself stuck in tomorrow's rut, but alright. We'll just have to see what happens at any rate.

I'm honestly just gonna reset once Loopdan flips and reread everything. Instantaneous scum pings are often mistakes, at least on my side, and I could easily be completely wrong on you - most of it is in the moment reactionary stuff, which is a pretty unreliable way to read people anyways. It honestly doesn't matter to me until we reach lynch, though, so I'm really not worried about it at the moment.

[Enter]

This is the most town-oriented posting I've seen from loopdan all game.

[Enter]

If this game is won by a completey unexpected scumteam like Magik/RCE, I'm 100% placing the blame for this loss on Enter for creating a gamestate where experienced players could show up and take advantage of his stupid play.

You're one to talk as far as stupid play is concerned.

[Enter]

Did you just "I know you are but what am I"?

Lol

I've been calling your play shit since I walked in, kid. If anyone's starting to try to talk smack back, it's you.

PEdit: srry, not used to experienced players trying to take last minute potshots

[Enter]

Your play this game up until just recently has been so wildly unacceptable as town that I actually think we have a better chance of winning down one town w/ you not in the game than we do with you in it and down one scum. I hope for your sake that your excuse is that you are scum.

[Enter]

You relentlessly and blindly tunneled town for the entirety of your time in this game. When others told you that you were being dumb, you said they were scum. You ignored any possible explanation for me having town motivations and twisted everything into your proof that I am scum. You said that if I am town that you are the worst scumhunter in history. Guess what? We are all about to find out that this is true and I'm going to be lolling about it in the dead thread and back here during post-game.

I relentlessly pushed a scummy player who pathetically left the game for a day and half after moping that I wouldn't fall for his sad attempts at cherry picking my arguments in a disgusting attempt at a defense. When you came back, you resorted to passive-aggressive comments and disgusting excuses of emotional appeals both of which are beyond childish responses. You then spent the rest of the game cheering on whoever would defend you (which was pretty much only one player) and you're currently pretending that one player is a whole slew of players telling me I was dumb. You continued to use large words you've proven time and time again you have no concept of the meaning of (like "tunneling," which you still haven't defined, BTW) and you resort to the same argument that's proven time and time again to be wrong. I think you still don't fully understand my argument against you, but that didn't stop you from spamming the thread and driving us to 22 unnecessary pages. Don't pretend the explanations for your town play were in any way strong - they make cerebral palsy look like it makes people into superman, and yet you still cower behind them as if I would resort to accepting that you're an IC who's just bad at playing mafia. In addition to all of this, you and your posse resolved to start calling people names and attacking the player not the play. If you aren't scum, this kind of infant behavior barely belongs on site, much less in a newbie game.

Learn to play the darn game and quit making excuses.

I can't wait to see your laughter in the dead thread after we win this game because your ridiculously anti-town and childish play is no longer here.

[Enter]

Fingers crossed we can go w/o pushing a power role to L-1 today, but we'll see.

VOTE: RCEnigma

[Enter]

Yeah maybe we don't let Enter lead the Lynch today.

VOTE: MunchMellow

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I'm actually really surprised no one else is questioning their read on Enter after those flips. I'm not sure what that means yet but I'll think on it a bit more.

It could be slots hoping to avoid confrontation which is NAI for everyone else and slightly +town for Enter but I'm not sure. Remind me to gather my thoughts on Enter avoidance after my munch case.

PoE != confscum

[Enter]

Gonna let you know we ARENT going to have you tunnel one guy, not a lot from rce so I’m fine with this but your wagon on Loopdan cannot repeat because you get stubborn on your first read. Just an fyi, can you post an updated list of reads now that loop flipped green?

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

Loopdan should have been lynched on page 12, but we let him live, he continued to scum up the game thread and now we have 15+ pages of borderline spam and a dead PR. Acting like what happened with dan is bound to happen again / complaining about my behavior yesterday isn't a good direction to head in for day start.

Anyways, enough of that. Yeah I can get a reads list together, and also that's not how you use "fyi."

[Enter]

I didn't mean that at magik, really. Just confused by his comment is all.

[Enter]

I've seen decent play from RCEnigma, unfortunately every once in a while I run across posts like the following that get the whole "reasonable voice saying something bizarre" and that's not a good look for town:

Is it? Lynching myself probably wouldn't be good for me then, pretend I didn't scumlean my slot while I check.

Only time I scumlean my slot when I replace in is when I replace into a scum slot. Yes I've said I scumread my slot when I replaced into scum before (IIRC). Yes it was dumb. No it doesn't mean it's too dumb for other people to do it.

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

I don't see it as a scum slip. It just looks like you're reaching too hard on that one.

I think that town doesn't have to go there to be townie, so I kind of see scum-agenda in this. And what does that even mean - that he would selfhammer if he would be L-1 on deadline and no one else to hammer?

I too find the sacrificial hero of the town story pretty annoying. But in my experience it's usually a town player that says it because if scum would say this and not follow through, that would be a clear scum-tell.

@Thespio, why haven't you removed your vote on MDB? That vote/pressure is not going anywhere.

Whenever a player replaces in, it's always bad news for scum because that player can approach the game from a different perspective than the current players. I think that we didn't really take a look at Loopdan because he was driving the game in the beginning. But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.
VOTE: Loopdan

So before this vote Muh's last bit of content regarding Loop was the "double bussing" comment in response to Thespio calling Skellen/Loop TvT.

The bad news for scum line seems informed which is what made me think muh/Loop is still possible but not probable I guess looking at the current game state.

It's an opportunistic vote and from a scum perspective it's well timed. It's early in Enter vs Loop and isn't heated yet. But it only took 1 post to completely flip how the game shod be viewed in Muh's mind?

Now that I think about it that's more of a reason for this to just be Town!Enter. I believe there is 1 between Loop and Muh. Loop / Enter goes beyond scum theater and rarely ever would they be together. So if Muh is the scum here he's spewing Enter town with the pocket attempt (looks like it worked at any rate).

What about "bad news for scum" seems informed to you?

Also, why is this opportunistic? The rest of the game is at the point where it's so stale they're trying to lynch lurkers. Pushing a wagon on an active player is pretty much always better than that.

How does muh's post show a change in game view?

Yes, conversely if Loop flips town voters are doing the buddying. Buddying you, get what I mean?

I follow and agree. Which is a big reason that, if both are town, loop is a better flip.

I disagree, just because most slots townread you doesn't eliminate the possibility that you're scum here and Loopdan was correct when he linked your hard tunnel strat.

Also, Elements Lynch gives just as much information.

So from our perspective if Loop is lynched and flips red you are pretty much cleared but likely die in the night so there goes that advantage. I'd also argue that Muh could very much be partners with Loop based on early interactions and wagon interactions, loops pushes on Muh have never come to fruition so Scum!Loop could safely echo that as his preferred Lynch to distance. That still leaves too many slots unresolved.

Lynching Elements eliminates more scum possibilities imo: a red flip is ideal, in that case maybe Thespio dies, maybe enter, more likely someone on the wagon though, it's too much wifom to speculate. Elements flipping red semi clears loop as the counterwagon but it largely points to a low activity scumteam or at least a scumteam without a strong voice in the town. Munch, muh, skellen, Thespio, myself from other perspectives. I would even eliminate Munch from that pool as I don't think both Munch and Scum!Elements would vote together the way they have and not achieve a Lynch by this point.

On a green Elements flip MunchMellow is caught scum. The partner in that case is a bit more ambiguous but I feel like associations wouldn't be hard to piece together by the time Munch flips red.

So, please tell me, what information did we get from elements?

Again this is just straight wrong.

Due to my schedule I'll be up and about end of day so getting a Lynch before deadline won't be an issue.

Enter, Magik, loop would be my town circle with Thespio right outside of that and then maybe skellen though that's an early read and I haven't delved into her posts super deeply. Leaving munch and Muh in my scum pile.

I'll exclude Elements for now since it's an ambiguous claim that I think resolves tonight or tomorrow?

Not necessarily PoE, to quote FlavorLeaf... It's wagonomics. I'm not super sold on a world with Scum!Enter but it's something I'm keeping in mind. I recall reading Enter isn't new so with that in mind Newbie queue is one of the queues to go wild with different playstyles or strats so I can't throw out the idea of Scum!Enter completely.

I suspect Muh but based on the wagons and votes it confirms munch to me but not necessarily Muh. I'd have to go back through with associations in mind but I don't know off the top of my head who munch is with.

What changed your read overnight?

=======

PEdit: Sorry. :/

[Enter]

Also it's opportunistic to pile onto Loop only AFTER you started digging into him then justifying it by saying you were pointing out all the things he was thinking. You accused LoopDan of this same behavior regarding Magik and his townread on you evolving artificially. But it was only scummy when Loop did it but not Muh.

I need an example of this.

[Enter]

I’m asking you as a townie that you as someone who I think is a townie act less antitown. That’s it, we aren’t acting weird, you were just wrong and if you mega tunnel someone today it will likely hurt town again.

That's fair. You're right, I'll try to figure out what I got so vehemently wrong and fix it in the future.

I disagree that not tunneling people is always an answer, sometimes it's good. I want to say it was confbias, but sometimes scum is caught but then they manage to look town afterwards. Whatever, we're getting into mafia theory now.

[Enter]

I will hopefully have a list of reads together by tomorrow morning. In the meantime,

RCEnigma, you seem to be casting a lot of shade in a lot of different directions. Do you have townreads outside of Thespio/Skellen? Please share and explain.

[Enter]

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I'm town, so you need a new theory. But I am interested in your detailed explaination.
It's also a nice way to set up a mislynch - just mention a few times on D1, that one of two town players is a scum, state it as a fact and be 100%. If one of them gets mislynched D1, you have a nice mislynch set for D2. If not, just kill the guy N1 and have a nice mislynch set for D2.

Today, my scumhunting pool is RCE, muh, Thespio and Magik. I don't like Enters play, but I agree with Magik, going like that after Loop, it would be a very risky game for scum. Skellen still reads town to me. Magik does too, but with a pinch of doubt.
Btw Enter, I think you are finding excuses for yourself by saying your tunnel was fine, his play was bad. The reason he wasn't dead by page 12 is, that some of the people weren't as sure in your case and in the end, they weren't wrong.

I have a lot of time today, so I'll be rereading and will have some more to say in the evening.

+1.

To everything. Actually everything here.

[Enter]

Rn the person i think we ought to push the most is Munch, no one thinks its odd theyve been able to lurk in the background all game.

This game has too many lurkers for you to use that as an excuse.

Request you figure out an assortment of reads.

[Enter]

Also it's opportunistic to pile onto Loop only AFTER you started digging into him then justifying it by saying you were pointing out all the things he was thinking. You accused LoopDan of this same behavior regarding Magik and his townread on you evolving artificially. But it was only scummy when Loop did it but not Muh.

I need an example of this.

Example of scumreading Loop for this line of thinking or townreading Muh for this line of thinking?

Never mind, I think I see what you mean. You're accusing me of a double standard because I accused loop of repeatedly following Magik with no opinion of his own after muh voted following my vote once and then proceeded to remain there after he saw what he thought was a good case, and you're trying to imply that it's the same thing, is that right?

[Enter]

To be fair I outlined Loops read trajectory on you and you dismissed it as him not having an opinion. Yes Muh did the exact same thing even disregarding the vote itself.

No. It is different, and it is different in this:

muh at one point in the game saw something that gave him a scum read on loopdan and followed up on that with his vote. It looks more town on him for this, because he did not do what so many others did, which is call loopdan scum, but not place their vote on him.

I do not condemn him for seeing an argument he likes and following through. If you do, we have more to talk about than whether or not I'm holding people to a double standard.

What loopdan did is different. From pretty much RVS until I showed up in the game, he exclusively voted someone who someone else had just voted merely two posts before and mirrored their argument on it, from voting muh to MDb, to PvtUrist. I have no problem with finding an argument you like and sticking with it. I do have a problem when it becomes apparent that you have a hard time thinking of a reason for any of your votes, which is what loopdan portrayed.

[Enter]

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

[Enter]

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

You said yesterday that I was a townlean if Loop flipped town. What changed that opinion?

When did I say that?


===

the only real reason i remember munch saying she didn't wanna kill dan is cuz he's the IC.

===

muh is mostly a wavelength read. I'll case the people we disagree on in a bit (maybe tomorrow? I'm like super busy irl, but maybe I can do it on saturday or something)

[Enter]

When did I say that?

Forgotten post 630, you have. Surprised in this I am not.

Oh. Dude, that was like halfway through the day.

It's not huge. The reason I was kind of townreading you at that point was the consideration that you were being pocketed and he was scum. He wasn't scum, so it now looks like maybe other way around/you were looking for WK points.

Honestly, though, I'm not hugely convinced of my scumread on you.

[Enter]

What is a WK point? Never heard that term before.

Also, I'll ask you the same question I asked to Muh: what do I gain by pocketing Loopdan, a player already under heavy pressure and a likely lynch candidate even when I first hopped in?

White knighting. Calling someone town when you know they're town for town points.

I'm not sure I buy it to be honest mostly because Magik didn't fully side with Loop until Enter started pushing on him too.

That's why it's weird... cuz he was calling him scummy but wouldn't do anything until someone pressured him to. :/ I really don't know, though. I'm not entirely convinced of the Magik scum lean.

[Enter]

Thespio has a weird talent for making really scummy posts and really towny posts back to back.

[Enter]

Actually, you know what?

I like this better.

VOTE: Thespio