Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Skellen]

Oh well, seems I am going to be the odd one regarding timezones. Maybe.

Thought Loopdan's voting behaviour is weird. The first time he pushes Munchmellow to the lead for no reason (well I get it, random voting phase etc.), I think for pushing some kind of reaction with increasing the pressure, but then he goes after muh who can basically defuse the situation by himself because self-vote. Seems kind of half-assed.

[Skellen]

I disagree, i find this to be townie behavior, if he went to much into it i would write it off as LAME (Look At Me *I'm Town*) but because its more vague this makes me feel there is more to it. I assume its to apply pressure.

Nah, a little bit too try-hard for me. Well to be fair, he wanted to give a reason anyway.

I don't understand how being vague is meant to be more pro town. Personally I prefer straight statements as they make someone more vulnerable.

[Skellen]

Well the way i see it is Scum is the informed minority, the only thing they wont know is what we are thinking, in D1 someone just saying wait while we have so much time left to me seems to be keeping info from scum. Eventually yes, we will need the reason, but if its to draw out reactions i think its fine.

Ah, I am not disagreeing with that. I think we talked past each other a bit.

My problem is just that coming from that point it seems cheap to me to take muh. It's basically fake pressure to look pro town considering muh can and probably will just unvote himself eventually.

[Skellen]

So are you using "weird" as "I don't understand this" or as "this looks scum-motivated" or something else?

Kind of both. To be fair I have only played this game irl and so I know it only the way that your vote is final, so the whole voting mechanic here is a little bit new to me. On the other hand that what I said in #42 though.

[Skellen]

What do you mean by fake pressure? Like is that I don't really want to lynch him but I'm voting him to make him think I am trying to lynch him?

I interpret your move so that you push the second vote on people to pressure them. Alright. But in muh's case it's pointless, half the votes on him are basically himself. He can just shrug it off and unvote and *poof*... pointless. If you really wanted to pressure someone there were other and better options who already had one vote.

As for your second question that's what I am actually wondering about. But I am not sure if there is this early a serious lynch intention considering the length of the day.

[Skellen]

I understand the concern, at this point who would you lynch? (keeping in mind there are two people who havent contributed)

If nothing really good comes up which is worth a try then in doubt one of the inactives, since the silent ones always become a bother later. The lack of information gain is a problem then though. Then again I think this site has a good way to handle this issue so for me it's no big deal at the moment. So going by what I can see here, Loopdan would be my choice.

[Skellen]

@Loopdan:

#49: Well, there were Elements, spio, me and Pvturist. The former two were even in this thread during that time.

#50: What? muh is to me as interesting as a rock at the roadside, since there is not much. I never had any intent to vote him?

I am not voting you, because I think it's too soon. Well and it wouldn't do anything. You are, if I get the IC concept right, the most experienced player here, I honestly doubt that vote would make you care. Heck, even I only remembered I had a vote on me just because I looked the votecount up right now and didn't care at all.

#52: It seems to me scummy, because it looks like you want to go forward like the good townie who pressures people while taking the one person where there is the least risk that this one gets up to 3 votes and thus more in the focus like his voters probably would too then (well I hope you get my train of thought). Well that and because I don't see any benefit in that choice. It's ultimately not that much, since you could as well have avoided that with not doing anything which would have been easier, but it's the first day, I grasp what I can and give it a try.

Also the reply to #28 is still due.

[Skellen]

i don't see why this is important in any way. the vote happened on the first page of the game after muh voted themselves to spite loopdan. i can't see how there could be any reason for loopdan to vote them other then something along the lines of "well screw you too"

I would agree with this if he wouldn't have implied there is more to it with the "Later" in #29. Meanwhile he said it is as you said. Eeerrhh why was he even doing it so ominously in first place then.

[Skellen]

Finally got some time to spare.

How do you read Elements and I?

It's difficult to read Elements at the moment, at least for me, so I can't really see how you are leaning more towards town in his case. Comments here and there some things, but not enough to classify him on town/scum side. Normally I would think it's slightly scummy (I miss a little bit the initiative), however this early there isn't much juicy stuff to work with anyway.

As for you I am struggling with you a little bit. I found your role in the exchange between me and loopdan slightly interesting, since you were kind of "moderating" between us. It would be consistent with your opinion that two townies went against each other instead of the using the moment to team up against a side, which is a positive thing. Of course a scum-you would have known better and could as well used that moment to get in a postive standing with two active townies. By feeling I am rather leaning towards the former. I was a bit wary when you put all the active players on the town side while I wouldn't even find it possible to say much about the others, as you can see in my comment about Elements, so that only the inactives are left for scum. A bit a too certain statement for this early. Leaning slightly towards town, but here and there are some things that remind me to keep an eye on you.

[Skellen]

@Skellen - The tone wasn't intended to be ominous. It was just my way of making it seem like maybe I had an actual reason to scum-read you for your self-vote. Sometimes that leads to others jumping on the wagon, sometimes it leads to others screaming over and over that they demand an explanation of the unexplained vote, sometimes nothing really happens.

I see. So basically a bait. That's an answer that I actually like, it kind of fits into the impression that I have of you after our little conservation yesterday. Which is a good thing.

[Skellen]

Kind of wish there would have been more from the others.

Particularly munchmellow, I kind of liked that she sought the conversation with muh with elaborating about the double bussing idea.

PvtUrist's entry not so good on the other side as it was just commenting on "fillerish" posts from spio.

[Skellen]

Thank you for nothing, Spiral. Why even replacing in, just to get yourself replaced?

@Skellen - Have you played mafia on other sites? You seem more experienced than a typical first time player here.

I do? Well I followed one larger online game as spectator on another side which was a little bit different though, but that's it. I am mostly trying to adapt with my experience from live games in a trial and error manner. I am at a loss though if it comes to special terms like double bussing, that I need to rely on the wiki.

[Skellen]

My reads are lame so here's a few questions;

@Skellen ignoring the 2 inactive players, who do you feel to be the scummiest/towniest right now? How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

It would certainly be convenient if the

lurking scums

inactive players decided to show up.

Scummiest: You. The recent posts seemed like some obligatory "hello I am here btw" just when you got suddenly mentioned once. Could have been coincidence, but it gives me rather negative vibes.

Towniest: Ironically loopdan. After rereading my exchange with him I got a better impression of him, since he were trying to get as many informations out of me as I tried to instead of counterattacking, which should have easily been possible for him.

This "fluff" is what also makes me about Thespio, but at this point it could as well have been a method to get the game started.
You mean he slipped out in #84 that he is scum? I might missing it, but what exactly do you mean?

How come btw that you are addressing me of all people?

[Skellen]

This "fluff" is what also makes me about Thespio, ...

+ wary

Can't believe I actually had to quote myself.

[Skellen]

You mean he slipped out in #84 that he is scum? I might missing it, but what exactly do you mean?

I am just doing it again.
Anyway I guess this part is already answered with his post #110. I actually thought it was a joke. Erh...

[Skellen]

Yeah... no. Screw it. Actually this time I am listening to Loopdan's advice. This gets a vote.

VOTE: PvtUrist

It has at least the side effect that he is actually here.

[Skellen]

Thanks, Nauci, but sorry, I was just swearing.

Reads so far;

{Urist} conf-town
{} strong-town
{Elements, Loopdan, Skellen} null-town
{Munchmellow, muh316, Spiral, MissDeadbeat} null
{Thespio} null-scum

Can you elaborate why you are picking Elements for null-town? I was already sceptical when Thespio did it as I have a sligthly contrary opinion on that one.

[Skellen]

Are you saying you are scum reading me to some degree here? if so why?

The more correct term would be neutral with scum tendency. At least that's how I also read PvtUrist's categories.

I kind of picked it on in #96 when Thespio was asking me for my read on you. I haven't bothered to persuade this though, since this game is slow paced and not much is happening.

[Skellen]

Trying out this multi quote thing for the first time. It's a bloody mess.

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

2);

How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

1) To be honest I take his reply as not taking your post seriously. As I did too. Maybe I am just not good at recognizing such scum slips, since Enter kind of implied to agree with you on this, but for me it's no good argument because I doubt scum would imply that they might be scum. I mean it's literally asking for attention, the thing they want the least and in this case I don't see how a scum-Thespio would benefit from it.

2) It's definitely slower paced as forum game, day 1 awkwardness aside. But that's natural. And since it's an actual thing, the inactives aren't that annoying irl since at one point all players will just awkwardly stare at the person who didn't say a thing so that the silent ones are forced to say or do something. However I expect the best parts of forum Mafia will come later, it would actually be nice to be able to reread everything instead of trying to remember everything.

Read update;

Skellen; Loopdan explains how I feel about

him

/her well in 126

Thespio;

isn't talking about girls=scum

safely parks vote on inactive player rather than engaging with the more active players

First: Fixed by me, since I already saw Loopdan being on the wrong track.

As for Thespio. Unlike this so called scum slip this is actually a good argument. If I remember it correctly he indeed sneaked his way through the day like an eel without confronting a single person, which is quite remarkable, if we consider that he is by posts one of the most active players here. Have to rethink this under the assumption of scum-Thespio. In any case I am interested how he is going to handle the accusations from today.

[Skellen]

Onward to recent developments.

Enter's entry is pretty good. A replacements that finally works, please stay. He is trying to crack up new cases with Loopdan and Thespio. I am indifferent about some points against Loopdan, since some look a little bit like hair splitting to me (like the TvT-agree-issue) but he seems to be a quite experienced player so maybe there is some merit to it, so I am interested where this is going. The most valid point against Loopdan that I however share is indeed #125. I must admit I was a bit shocked when I read that, I mean really not even a slight scum read as IC? Didn't helped, that the definition of sheeping sounds scummy as hell for me.

My impression on Munchmellow improved greatly with her recent posts. I can relate to most of her points (besides PvtUrist and Elements, but with the latter I guess for now I am the only one in this regard anyway) and I like how she is now raising the pressure on Thespio, especially since Thespio's reaction was rather weak after her vote.

You didnt really answer my question, its hard to engage with active players, the people who have been active as i said seem to be town, you really like to play that line of not being here but pushing fault onto someone without much cause.

However don't you think that there should be some merit in challenging the active players? It's basically the best thing to get the game started instead of waiting for an inactive player showing up. Especially because you can never be sure about other players, even if they seem more like town. Loopdan is kind of my personal example for that, it's a rollercoaster at the moment.

[Skellen]

Your play is ridiculously suboptimal for town and you have no excuse as an IC to have NO READS on page six and be SHEEPING your townread. In regular games do you know how fast you get lynched for that? It's possible mafia has changed since I played a while ago, but sheeping is pretty much always looked down upon and VERY RARELY acceptable. I have personally NEVER seen an acceptable reason to sheep and the fact that you call yourself out on it is BAFFLING to me.

Everything else aside, since there is much back and forth between you two, I want to pick up on this part, because I want to clarify some doubts in the Loopdan case. While his vote in #125 is bad, no matter how you look at it, it's exact the same thing that feels so strange. I mean if we assume scum-Loopdan, that vote post is basically a suicide post, it looks like a desparate move for no reason. Why do you think he would do something like that as scum, that has that much backfire potential at this state of the game? It's the unnecessity that's bugging me here. Of course it's also questionable why he would do so as town, but as scum it looks even more weird.

While I am addressing you: What makes you so certainly think in #135 that PvtUrist is town? Just the suspicion of Thespio?

@Loopdan:
What I don't get in the whole debate with Enter: Why are you dancing around the issue of scumreads for what Enter already called you out? It's hard to buy that you don't have anything in the Day 1 phase of the game, where grasping at even the tiniest straws is legitimately enough.

That aside after rereading Thespio's ISO I feel kind of bad, that I got distracted by looking at the "middle-active" players (doesn't mean I am letting them go though) that I didn't even notice that he had literally zero scumreads so far. Ignoring RVS of course. Not good. Guess it will depend on his defence after getting three votes how bad it actually is or if he can redeem himself. I am particularly interested on what he is thinking about Enter's case against Loopdan.

[Skellen]

Caught up and forgot already half of what I wanted to write down. Oh well.

First @Enter/Thespio regarding PvtUrist:

Since I am involved in that wagon my input to this. You were discussing a lot about the "what" in PvtUrist's case and here I am even not that much disagreeing with Enter, what PvtUrist said isn't necessarily bad aside from the this scum slip issue, I even thought his reason for voting Thespio that he brought up later is pretty good. But on the other hand it's not that difficult to come up with legit reads as scum during the first days without needing to make up too much bullshit yet.

What is bugging me in his case is the "how". He seems kind of reserved, does first his obligatory activity post with commenting on filler and just when he got negatively mentioned once by me he comes up with the basic formula with posting reads (that aren't really that interesting without any details) and throwing in 1-3 questions and bye. Half of these addressed at me for whatever reason, I even asked why but he avoided answering of course. I had at the back of my mind that it seemed like a defensive reaction which had no real reason imo. Later he confirmed his vote, but overall he is mostly fixated on Thespio for the whole game. There are no attempts to dig deeper with other players as if he doesn't care, he got his target anyway. He seems to me like a dutiful scum, who is not doing more than he has to. It doesn't help, that Elements said in his read, that this behaviour resembles his scum play from a former game (however here I can just blindly trust as I don't have the time to read other games, but there is no denial by PvtUrist anyway).

Making a cut here to avoid wall of text.

[Skellen]

Got too distracted so I am keeping it short. Since he is the other hot topic in the vote count at the moment it's next to Thespio. Regarding him I am a little bit indecisive. Rethinking his play yesterday made him suspicious in my eyes, his defence is a mixed bag for me now. I think his reads seem comprehensible from his point of view, but then right after that he defends Loopdan twice with pitting him against PvtUrist. Ugh. Why even doing someone else's job? I think Loopdan did even the same with Thespio? If these two are the scum team it's more turning into a slapstick team. This is actually fuel for Enter's original scumteam Loopdan/Thespio theory, although it's becoming so obvious that I just can't believe it can be that easy.

Otherwise his defence is rather predictable, I mean I share his suspicion of PvtUrist, but I was hoping his opinion of Loopdan would be a little bit more ambitious as I kind of hinted yesterday. However now his opinion seems to change, I am not sure how to interpret that. Either he is really questioning him more or it's the last effort to burn some bridges between him and Loopdan, although I might think it's almost too late for that. Guess it will also depends now too what Loopdan's next move is and where Thespio's new read is leading to.

[Skellen]

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

@Skellen - I'll agree that PvtUrist is lurker-y. The thing with lurkers is that scum!lurking often looks like town!lurking from what I've seen. Your read seems like you're applying your thoughts to his absence, and while I agree with that process, I would ask you this: Considering cases against Loopdan and PvtUrist, which appears scummier to you, and why? If you townread Loopdan, please explain in depth. I understand that PvtUrist doesn't look like an example of town, but from my perspective it looks like you're projecting your own reasoning on his absence (which isn't necessarily wrong, it just might sway your read further towards scum or town than you wanted to.) Since most of my points against Loopdan are relatively concrete (as far as I'm aware), and I doubt they could be scum together, I doubt PvtUrist is scum. I would really like to hear your opinions on this.

I will admit I might be a little too hard with him here (PvtUrist). I think for me it's ultimately difficult to read him, when he is so "streamlined".

I agree that Loopdan/PvtUrist is not possible and no, I can definitely rule Loopdan out as townread at the moment as I am not fond of his behaviour after you started your attack. I am just not sure yet if he ends up as neutral or scum for me. Please wait a little bit for my read on Loopdan, I was orginally planning to wait for an improved defence of him, but since I am most likely not here tomorrow and I am getting frustrated with his stalling, which looks like playing on time until it hits one of the other two, I am rereading everything at the moment (including your guys exchange *shiver*).

[Skellen]

So on with Loopdan:

One of your points against him were the vote spam. While I am myself rather conservative in that regard, it's imo not such a big deal, I can see how multiple votes can be justified. However two of these votes weren't good (muh and MissDeadbeat) and I think we don't need to talk about the infamous sheeping vote anymore. In hindsight I find it noticable that he was already dancing around the issue when challenged in my exchange with him regarding the muh vote, I had to run after him (+ muh) for a few posts until he came up with a reason. In context with his behaviour after Enter joined the fray it looks more defensive than I thought. Seems he tends to do that when pressured.

I am bothered that he responded mostly on the hair splitting arguments by Enter (TvT argument). The most interesting argument was the thing, when he mentioned his unease with Thespio's no-lynch post. Imo the biggest inconsistency when you put his opinion why not to vote Thespio against all his other votes. I am just not sure if scum-Loopdan didn't vote because Thespio is his partner or he wanted to avoid a harsher confrontation with active players. This would indeed be clear scum behaviour in my eyes.

His defence is a mess, he just caves in. In comparision Thespio did a better job, even although here the conversation started also rather heated, but Thespio is at least trying to act more reasonable. Switching to ignore your accusant is never a good thing. That's no town behaviour, as townie you would at least try harder to prove his/her innocence. And here @Enter I think you might be not so wrong in your search for a possible Loopdan scum partner. If Missdeadbeat/magichorse is his partner his behaviour would actually make sense, because I can see a scum who got caught caving in like this, if you know that your partner is basically... non-existent. It would also fit considering his lack of any noticable relationships with other players (I think only Thespio, PvtUrist and I may have one with him).

I think I am going to settle on scummy with this one.

[Skellen]

Help me understand, i think my view may be skewed because up until now I had considered him town and he had voted with me, i think i was viewing him as a friend in game rather then a suspect and its caused me to overlook some of his actions, what with him still urks you?

I think I am drawing a mental blanket right now. What exactly do you mean?

[Skellen]

To come back to the original question of you, Enter:

Hard to say for me, who I would like to lynch more right now. PvtUrist is my main suspect, but in the current lynch threatened trio he looks a little bit like the odd one. Lynching him would only prove if I am right or wrong with my case, but other than that there wouldn't be much more information.

Loopdan is indeed an interesting choice. It could add fuel to the Loopdan/Thespio theory and at the same time it could confirm PvtUrist. Basically this is a plus in comparision to the simple PvtUrist lynch.

However I must say Thespio isn't that bad either, considering PvtUrist and Elements are on his wagon (and of course again the Loopdan connection). However Thespio seems to turn again loopdan and frankly Thespio is right now more constructive imo, so I would rather keep him around.

I think I might be willing to back off from PvtUrist, I see there a better chance to gain more valuable information. And a good case nonetheless.

UNVOTE: PvtUrist

VOTE: Loopdan

There we go. Was the unvote even necessay btw?

[Skellen]

I see there a better chance to gain more valuable information. And a good case nonetheless.

I mean Loopdan here obviously, to avoid misunderstandings.

[Skellen]

I am sleepy~... still wanted at least to comment while catching up on some things before I forget to do so tomorrow.

First, I want to hug Magichorse for his scumread on Elements. I was already feeling paranoid with everyone else townreading him. What you said about him is exactly what bothered me plus him being rather reactionary until that point of your post. How do you feel about his recent posts though? He became surprisingly bold and is now far more involved with the current situation. Although this can be interpreted in multiple ways. I am not really sure what to make out of it as I find his scum constellations weird (not his Thespio suspicion though).
Also how come you are holding Muh and PvtUrist in higher regard than Elements in #286? Both aren't really that different from him tbh.

@Elements:
Can you elaborate on the connection that you seem to see between Loopdan and PvtUrist in #352? Isn't it rather the opposite considering Loopdan put PvtUrist on L-2 and pushed him ahead when no alternative wagon was in sight?

[Skellen]

Looks like a lot has happened while I was away. Feel free to shoot me a few questions while I read through the new pages.

Sure.

Why is it so difficult for you to form an opinion about Loopdan's alignment?

What is your impression of Magichorse or better: what convinces you to lean more on town with him?

What do you think of the issue of Enter's "tunneling"? Do you think Enter's arguments are legit? You were wondering after all in your last reads post why he was targeting Loopdan.

Your opinion of Thespio's exchange with Enter?

Anything else to the current situation is fine.

[Skellen]

When I remember right, how did this become a 1v1 between Enter and Loopdan? By all I know it's still Loopdan vs Thespio or did I miss something?

Personally I don't believe we are dealing here with a scum-Enter. I mean what exactly would be his game plan as scum? He joins the game by kicking in the door, making much noise and attacking heavily a player who was at that point of the game basically untouched. That Loopdan would cave in as he did wasn't expectable at all. If Loopdan would flip as town he is instantly in the center of attraction (during day and maybe even night), which is exactly the one thing I think scum would try to avoid at all costs. I mean if it would have happened later at Day 3, maybe even already Day 2, ok I could see a scum motivation. But his early the risk of his cover getting blown away would be pretty high. I don't see it. Can anyone explain to me what the motivation of scum-Enter would be here?

[Skellen]

But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.

ORLY? Please elaborate.

Later.

Nobody pays attention to the fights happening between the smaller people.

I got a déjà vu.

Which fights do you mean besides Elements?

Loopdan and I have never really been at each others throats. what are you talking about?

Nevermind. I just misunderstood this whole thing. I was thinking about the lynch/vote count.

To clear up my whole "if loopdan is scum pvt looks scummy" thing. this isn't because if their interactions it's it eliminate enter from my list of possible scum

I am afraid instead of clearing it up it just got more confusing.

[Skellen]

the only discussion i see as bad is that of PRs and of speculation on who is lynched based on specific actions. if we build a kill list, like what was being asked for, then we provide strait information about who is going to do what before N1. Bad.

Wait. But were't you doing exactly that in #331, #408 and #409? I understood muh's comment so that he was calling you out for that. Or did I got ist just wrong, this post seems weird.

[Skellen]

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

You are at L-1. I would think there is no reason to hold anything back any longer. Why not using the time now instead of waiting until a countdown starts?

[Skellen]

Sigh... guess that's it for today. To be fair, I can't blame Enter for #466, because he is right in these points, it is frustrating.

This whole Loopdan vs Enter thing isn't leading anywhere and it's really tiresome to follow. It's just running in circles and I don't understand why Loopdan even forced this situation by himself. I don't even know how one could think this was a good idea. Me and Magichorse already pointed out why scum-Enter is way too unlikely.

While I agree that Enter is pretty zealous in persuading Loopdan to this "vs" situations always belong two people. Just reread Loopdan's ISO, particularly the recent posts and it doesn't help that almost all of them center around Enter. Defending is one thing (and better than not like before), but this is too defensive and I don't see what he is hoping to achieve with that, especially when some shady things are among his posts as Enter pointed out. Which is why I was hoping he would look elsewhere as hinted in #448, otherwise it's sitting it here out until we witness Pvt's reincarnation. If you have something else to say it's better to do it soon than waiting till we run out of time.

[Skellen]

I am still at work and can only post more in a few hours but since Elements announced his hammer in a few hours I will do the unvote.

UNVOTE:

This more because I want to hear more from the Pvt slot, when a replacement is found. I have waited far too long for this to let this opportunity slip.

[Skellen]

Thanks that you actually got this @Thespio. It's already pretty sneaky to skim through the thread at work, so that I have less to reread during my small timeframe at home. Got nervous when you didn't unvote first while Elements was with his sudden hammer intention around with Pvt getting replaced. It's she though. I have to find this pronoun thing in the profile I guess.

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

@Skellen - you missed this

No, I didn't miss it.

I won't parrot my two posts that I made back then when I voted, so there are these two posts. Additionally after that a few things, I will try to make it short:

It's absolutely difficult to get into your mind with the thinking of a townie, at least for me. First you just resigned against Enter and were whining about your situation, which wasn't constructive in any way and all you could come up was just counter suspecting Enter, just to come up with the idea to heroically die for town and deciding to make this your "1v1" against Enter which made you look like a desparate scum who tried to derail the thread fpr another time. And then just when Magichorse started more posting you decided to come back suddenly and act exactly how you should have acted sooner. The sudden change in behaviour threw me off, it was totally suspicious even although it was just mere speculation with scum team Loopdan/Magichorseslot.

The worst thing however were your "advices" for the power roles. Never. Do. That.
We all have different point of views and can think for ourselves. Ignoring your lack of trust it is in my eyes manipulative as hell. You know you are an experienced player here while many of us are newbies who tend to trust more experienced players, even if only unconsciously. I was ignoring it the first time you did that, since I was then too shocked at Thespio's blatant double attempt at rolefishing right after that, but no you had to do it a second time (with suggesting Enter, who you even thought of as town, so you were basically asking an investigative power role for wasting their ability, good job) just to do it even a third time. What is this even?! I may not adapt anything from offline games to online games, but one thing I learned there is that people who want to suggest what town power roles should do turn out in 60%-70% of the cases as bad guys. If you are town I really want to know what were you even thinking with that.

There are some more frustrating odds and ends but I don't want to lose myself in these things as they just add up to my impression of you. The thing with you is that you aren't even my primary suspect as I said(although you tried hard) as I also think in the duo Pvt/Elements there is at least one scum, everytime I thought you would do a step into town direction you made the roll backwards to scum territory.

Hah, short, guess I got a bit mad towards the end.

[Skellen]

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

Yes, this came indeed pretty unexpected. It seems the longer the day continues he gets more weird. I am not sure if he is really that frustrated or if he let his mask drop for real here with pushing overeagerly for a Loopdan lynch. Particularly in context of everyone waiting for the PvT replacement (we shouldn't enter the night with a shady wild card at any cost).

I had Elements for a longer time on my scum list, however lower than Pvt. But if this could turn out to be a lynch option which has a chance to go through I might consider switching to him. I still want to wait for the Pvt replacement though and see how it is to deal with a two personalities slot, ugh.

[Skellen]

I can respect your wishes to wait for the Urist replacement. That's fine.

I'm not entirely sure I recall the case on Urist all that well though. Anyone have a refresher for that? I'm a bit busy staffing ye olde TTT server to look it up right now.

I remember of course my own post #220 and Thespio's post #181. The case is of course rather weak now, which is due to Pvt going full submarine. My main motivation right now is rather to see how his replacement thinks and where he/she will stand in all of this and this will fit together with Pvt's play.

Regarding directing PRs... it is not anti-town for someone who is about to flip to give advice on night actions. It's just another way to make my thoughts known. And yes the PR(s) will make their own decisions but I know that when I'm a PR and a townie flips I go back to reread their posts when making my night action choice. For example, let's say there is a doc in the game who isn't sure who to protect between their two top townreads. How can they decide? Well a townie just flipped and he said Magik was his top TR. So it can be helpful.

Yeah and scum will know too making it null.

[Skellen]

Right now for me, there are two scenarios:
1. Thespio is scum with Elements/Muh/pvt

One last thing for today:

How does this scenario work? I mean I get that Thespio is shady, but two of these three tried to lynch him. While he has tried and is actually trying to lynch exactly those two.

[Skellen]

Like cool shady or like bad shady?

Wha... What is even cool shady?
Yeah, it's cool shady then. After reflecting on the recent events I have settled today to the thought to put you on the town side for now. Had problems to see where you might fit in, after all I reread your ISO twice recently and both times I came to a different conclusion. Ultimately I think your vote change to Elements is more something a townie would do, because if both in the former vote stalemate Loopdan-Thespio would be town I see no reason for scum to come up with a new wagon and you started the Elements wagon. If you are scum and Loopdan town you would have almost won the lynch with Elements' hammer, so no reason to back down from Loopdan.

Unless you are a scum team with Loopdan. Then this choice would have been pretty logical and clever and Elements with his post would be a pretty grateful victim. But this would be easier verifiable through Loopdan.

Munchmellow

First real noteworthy post being her read list. A short sentence for each read, doesn't look like much thought is going into it.

I like your reads, even although I don't agree with everything. Particularly because they look pretty authentic and critical imo, especially in context to your play until now, even although you aren't done yet.

However I just noticed in your read about Munchmellow that it deviates from your opinion in #149 where you liked the reasoning behind her reads while now it's almost the opposite. Where does that come from? I kind of understood your reads like they were chronologically written, so this felt kind of off.

[Skellen]

@Elements - Would you vote muh? You say muh is suspicious if I flip town. And you say I'm town. You said one of you or me are being lynched today. Why not muh instead?

Well, he townread muh...

[Skellen]

@Loopdan:
He already justified his vote kind of. Lynching you because he is aiming for the most information, which he outlined again in #751.

The point I was rather wondering about is that you basically asked him to do the same thing again, that was the cause for the wagon on him and for what you too voted him. With voting one of his townreads (not that I think, that muh is someone to townread at the moment), but please one of the other townreads.

[Skellen]

I don't really get why you thought that was a discussion you needed to jump into.

He already took a position to a muh lynch in #549. I just realized it was even answering to your question already back then. That's why I thought it was a strange question as you should know what his stance is in this. Thus I took your question as an attempt to push him against muh, although you have already judged him anyway before he even posted his read on you, which looked at first glance arbitrarily.
I didn't consider the question however from the theoretical ankle as you might have meant it, my bad, this long day just tempts me to overthink everything.

[Skellen]

Yes I realize he's at l-2

I am afraid you should prepare for a Elements lynch as I interpret RCE's posts and going by Munchmellow's attitude so far. So it's basically a question if I or munchmellow are going to hammer him. Although I think Elements might flip as town going by my impression of his reads so far. Guess the day is almost decided.

[Skellen]

@Skellen - I'm sure you've already made this clear somewhere else, but I can't remember off the top of my head and you are here right now... If you had to pick a lynch between Muh and Elements, who do you choose?

And since I don't know if I've stated it myself: My preference is a Muh lynch.

It's night here and by tomorrow the day might already be over depending by what RCE and Munchmellow are going to do while I sleep, so I might expand my answer as well explain my complete stance on the whole situation as this could be my last post on Day 1, so sorry for the wall.

Personally I would still prefer to lynch you, since you are in my eyes scummy enough to justify it, even although I have some doubts. Enter pointed it out perfectly in #630 how your flip would resolve so much that independent from your alignment scum would be cornered, scum wouldn't even be able to keep up with the nightkills to get rid of that many certain townies. But whatever, that train has departed when I unvoted for the sake of the Pvt/RCE slot (screw that slot) so I have no one to blame than myself. At least I am confident that you guys will be found out if your guys' lynch choice will end up as town and you are scum.

To come back to your original question, assuming you are out of reach, in the end I would lynch any of these two if necessary as both are scummy enough that I would give it a try if that's how it must be done.

I have my doubts about Elements recently because I think his reads seem authentic coming from a townie mind as they contain also some small details here and there sometimes that are unnecessary but rather show me the insecure thinking of a townie who is trying to figure things out. Plus rereading the situation with his vote I can kind of see the buildup in his posts until he snapvotes, at least I can follow here to a degree where he is coming from. Otherwise his vote is weird as scum. All he had to do was playing the waiting game as the situation was comfortable assuming Loopdan and Thespio are both town. In doubt someone would have hammered you to conclude the day and that's all. It would only make sense with the Elements/Muh connection you are seemingly betting on as muh had two votes with yours and Magichorse's. However no one else seemed really willing to jump on the muh wagon, so there was no apparent danger either.
I agree however with Thespio/Enter story which I also interpreted as setting the vote strategy for the next day up. But that would have become important when your role would have been revealed (at least for me). Could be that he just deceived me with his recent posts as he was scummy enough before, but what I said above is what is giving me an headache.

Muh is just there. Focussed almost only on you so far and I agree with Elements who called him out for some double standards or with RCE's thinking in #714. Probably the one whose role stands and falls the most depending on yours, which is why I wasn't caring so much about him. He is a hit or miss lynch option. If he is scum, good, it clears you, if he flips town the day ends with "nothing has happened, besides town losing one vote". And that would make me dread Day 2.

tl; dr
If the day isn't over by tomorrow my lynch order is Loopdan (although I think this cause is lost) --> whoever is most likely to lynch among Elements/Muh. Just that I would feel bad in Elements' case.

[Skellen]

As far as who's scum if elements flips, I don't know. I have no clue who his partner might be.

That's because the circle of suspects is

that

small. The only compatible choice is muh as they never clashed while everyone else has (or will) at least voted him for the lynch or is for other reasons most likely town. Somehow all roads lead to muh, assuming Elements is scum or Loop is town. Oh, and maybe me from your point of views. Basically the game is as good as won if Elements flips scum. Unless his scum partner gave up on him. A typcial case where you wonder if the easy answer is the corect answer (often it is though).

@RCE:
I remember you said there is definitely one scum between Elements and Munch. I can follow your thinking in regards to Elements but how do you get that certain about Munch? I think you only wrote that is by voting pattern...?

[Skellen]

Oh, I see what you're saying. So basically what you're saying is we take a chance. Ok let's talk math for a second:

Mathematically speaking it is better to flip Dan, because we get a lot more even flip, and both pools are a bit smaller. I can get more into it if you want, but this is why I was confused by RCE saying it's better to flip elements... That's not true unless he flips scum, and that's a smallish chance that I'm not willing to take. I also don't read him as scum.


But yeah, so my job involves troubleshooting, and we talk about troubleshoot theory and one of the things we discuss is this: even if you think it might be somewhere else, methodically narrowing down where issue can be by splitting issue in half over trying to get too specific too quickly is better a larger portion of the time.

I am not really disagreeing with that as I think so too. I am just looking into it as the Elements lynch is set in stone with RCE's intent to hammer. I wouldn't even mind it going by the scum-Elements scenario, I think what is bothering me too much is the scenario where he flips town (which is possible imo). That wouldn't leave any useful conclusions in cornering town and scum roles. It's kind of putting all one's eggs in one basket. Maybe I am just too focused on the information gain though.

[Skellen]

Is everyone of the opinion that I'm getting lynched?

Well, you are at L-1 and RCE announced his intent to hammer you. So it looks kind of bad for you.

@Elements is town scenario:
Rereading RCE's posts I saw that he meant if Elements is town that Munch would be caught scum. I already kind asked of in that direction in my former post, but can you point out what makes you so sure in that case? @RCE

[Skellen]

Oh my... this rl day is going to be a wild finale.

[Skellen]

@Magichorse:
I will be fair and say it: Due to timezones my last chance to be online here is in roughly 4 hours and then I will definitely vote Loopdan if nothing drastic happened until then, which would be right now a hammer. Sorry, can't delay it for longer so please consider it.

[Skellen]

Jeez guys, get a room.

Also there's 15 hours left so let's not get hasty, please.

Alright thanks, I had lost track of how many hours were left. Had no idea how else to avoid to cut off the day too soon with a premature hammer. Then nevermind, I will hold my vote back until tomorrow morning by deadline, if it should still be necessary by then.

@questions:
Some words about RCE why you would rank him rather on town side, since he is at the moment the only person I have yet to reread properly.

[Skellen]

Bye bye Loop.

VOTE: Loopdan

Now we wait until our aerial mod flies in.

[Skellen]

Aw, I am going to miss the adorable axolotl. Oh well.

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I was trying to ask this already last day, but can you explain how you can go so far to say she is certain scum? I think it was by vote pattern, by I can't really follow it through if I look at it. I mean, in general she could be a good choice because in my eyes she is kind of a jack of all trades, since she could be a compatible scum partner to everyone besides Thespio. All what I got by her votes is that she and Thespio/Elements are most likely not on the same side if there is one scum among them. Now Elements was town, whoch doesn't speak in her favour but what makes you so certain? Or is that just PoE from your point of view?

At the moment by what we know I come down to the trio muh, Munch and RCE as possible scum suspects. Muh is simply the one who draws the short stick among the Loop voters. Thespio is as I pointed out last day most likely town with Loop actually being town and regarding Enter I share Magichorse's opinion. The possibility of scum-Enter is of course there and he should be questioned, but it's still looks too risky plus at the moment I feel like looking out for the "obvious" suspects looks to me like the more promising route, before I start to turn the townreads on their heads. That basically leaves muh who, standing alone, doesn't look so good.

As for the other two Munch fits with almost everyone, but since I townread her for the last day I am kind of struggling to find the scummy points here. Guess I have yet to hit the reset button. And RCE is my new Thespio. Reread him several times during the night and everytime a different conclusion. I guess that's in this case the experience when a more or less "active" player got replaced by someone who is completely different.

[Skellen]

@Skellen Why exactly do you believe that Thespio is aligned with Loop? I've either forgotten the details or you've never fully explained it.

#709

I don't see the necessity for scum-Thespio to act as he did. Unless he didn't believe into the Loop wagon anymore (despite incoming hammer by Elements) to save himself and he saw a better chance with Elements and he went with his scum partner after Elements. But on the Elements wagon were Loop (town), Munch (tried to lynch him) and well... you. So I don't find that scenario that likely.

[Skellen]

So we have Loop at L-1 very much in danger of just being turbolynched at this point. Loop doesn't vote his counterwagon so that scum can't choose either or and they're pigeon holed.

If Thespio is a scum counterwagon at this point his partner is absolutely Magik but I don't think scum fights both wagons at this point keeping in mind the gamestate.

Loops wagon stagnates suggesting two on or one on one off. Magik could hammer here so in the case of one off I think this points to Munch.

In the case of two on it would be more of a tossup and mostly assumptions.

This is the wagon that pedsisted for most of the day until Loop/Elements. But even those vcs are pretty similar and tell me the same thing.

I am afraid I am dumb.
Is it a common thing that scum usually tends to quickhammer someone in a L-1 situation? Therefore it exculpates Magik that he didn't hammer Loop, I can follow that line of thinking. But Munch is scum because she was the only one left over outside the wagon and didn't hammer? I mean I understand you assume one scum was outside the Loop wagon (I actually agree with that) and thus for you she is the only one left, but the danger of her hammering Loop was never there to begin with as she was clearly rather leaning on town regarding Loop so she would have maneuvered herself into a deadend. Wouldn't scum rather try to leave that window open as long as possible then? Although the waiting game paid off with Elements snapping.

But to go by that logic the other side of the coin could be as well that Loop wasn't hammered back then because the second scum slot just wasn't there to do the deed.

[Skellen]

@Enter:
What makes you push muh to the town side? I can see it when you sympathize with him because he was kind of on the same wavelength with you in persuading Loop but to me he just looks like an upgraded PvtUrist. Since your entry he was focused only on Loop, of course picking here and there some quotes from Loop to underline his suspicion, but otherwise he is really blank. He always mentioned here and there some other smaller conflicts but never he actually bothers to delve deeper into these. For example obviously it was bothering him that Thespio was at L-2 and he was wondering why, although all three votes on Thespio had reasons stated by his voters yet seemingly he wasn't interested enough to challenge only one of these three. The same with Pvt and Elements. He brings those up but ultimately it never lead anywhere. Just look like some alibi statements to me.

He is the only person so far where I don't know what he is thinking. When I reread his ISO during the night and finished I was just like "Ok... and what now?". Even you with your hard tunnel mode had kind of a plan B. His announced attack against Magik kind of fits into this. I am all open for that, that's not the point, but it comes completely out of nowhere.

[Skellen]

Looking back, I'm not really seeing much reasoning behind Munch calling Loop town. I see her calling it gut once, and I see something about her not liking how that wagon formed (which is a valid concern tbh), and that's about it. I even see her agreeing on occasion with a few scummier points, but still overall leaning town for some reason.

Yeah, I have no clue what's going on with this read at all.

That's indeed the one thing where I wished she would have gotten more concrete. I can understand why someone is forming an opinion based on guts but it looks strange when you lean just by that on someone town enough to prefer voting anyone else over him. Going by RCE's approach it could be interpreted like it was the plan that one definitely stays away from the Loop wagon. I might finally get what RCE might have meant.

@Thespio:
Either I phrased it awkwardly or you got it wrong. I did't meant you, I meant muh.

[Skellen]

Don't mind me, just trying to catch up with the game and to reply to some ancient posts here. I hate timezones.

I'll go over the final wagons a bit later, skellen do your questions still stand?

If you have nothing to complain about my conclusions regarding the Munch thing, then no, I think it should have answered my questions. It's a nice approach but it doesn't make so me certain as it seems to do with you.

I'm not going to announce what I'm going to attack, that would be weird. How would you have preferred I call out Magik?

Huh, but you did in #1002? But that wasn't even the point I was hinting to. I thought your vote on Magik was coming out of nowhere because of what I got from your posts from the first day the logical approach for you should be to look over the Loop wagon as you kind of implied that there should be the highest chance to find a scum among the Loop voters if Loop is town in #490. Going by that statement shouldn't it have been your top priority to examine the wagon since Loop flipped as town? Apparently it was important enough to you to complain in #525 that Loop didn't do that, although he did that, just he only scumread you of the people on the Loop wagon.

Yet your first Day 2 action is to look for people who were not on the Loop wagon. Oh yes, you mentioned Thespio (I count him because he was also on the original Loop wagon who put Loop to L-1 for the first time), but basically it was "So many posts, can't read him, null". Well, that effort tells everything. At least you townread Enter again, but considering that you held it against Loop you seem rather slack in that regard.

Magik doesn't count as he made it pretty clear why he was voting Loop at the end of the day. You even confirmed it yourself that it was the preferred option than starting another wagon, but Magik called you already out on that if I remember correctly.

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I didn't really see much on Munch from you after this. You just began targeting me.

What do you mean here? RCE wasn't even talking much about you after this (I think two posts at most), instead more about Munch and his wagon theories.
I agree on your points about RCE though.

[Skellen]

On to Munch's posts.

It doesn't work with Magik, I don't think they're double bussing. RCE also seemes unlikely (considering Muh's theory, RCE is second scum...). I think it would work with Thespio - in 158 Muh commemts that Thespios self-sacrificing post was suspicious but that he thinks town does that. There are some more posts, where Muh states athespio did sth wierd/suspicious, but never scumreads him and is later asking why is Thespio still on L-2. They were also both on Loop's wagon, so if you consider 2on wagon theory, it would explain why scum didn't hammer Loop sooner.

I disagree about RCE being an unlikely partner for muh. Muh and RCE bark at each other, but they haven't bitten each other yet. Like when RCE implied he would have preferred a muh lynch, just to go after you the next day, but still keeps muh warm. Same with muh now on Day 2, just that he targets Magik over RCE. This looks like they are carefully burning all bridges between them, knowing that it could become difficult for one of them, maybe even both during Day 2.

I had similar thoughts about muh/Thespio. He always brings Thespio up during this game, but without any consequence, he just does it.

Also agree about your opinion about persuading Magik today or not. While I have Magik also only on neutral/town lean for me, it's also mostly because of the paranoia that he abused his late entry to play this "White knight" move to look as a good townie. I have the feeling that fear is what is driving most of us in regards to Magik. But I also think that this is a matter that might be easier to resolve on later day(s). The same applies to Enter. It is not impossible for them to be scum, but I think we might get a better chance to get them (if one of them is scum) with catching their partner first.

Possible partners - Magik (muh's case 1025) there is nothing in their interaction, that would make this impossible
Thespio - PVT's start makes this unlikely
Muh - unlikely as stated in my "Muh post".

That is the one thing that I am struggling with concerning RCE. He is running out of possible scum partners. At this point muh seems to be the only one who does really fit to him. Well, maybe Magik, but I have to reread if such a constellation could work. Unless scum-RCE has decided to to cover all tracks that could lead to his partner (but that would make you more suspicious), but since he did it that early with voting you I doubt it, it wasn't that predictable that a good number of townies might turn against him.

[Skellen]

@skellen does a RCE/Muh team feel probable?

Ah, speak of the devil. I think I answered it with my recent post.

[Skellen]

Ah, I am sorry, that weekend was hell for me that I need another weekend to recover from this. First just some random points I want to pick on.

so loopdans ML is where we should start, that makes horse town (admittedly this makes my munch read wrong) Munch town, im obv town. RCE is still in deep shit from their predecessor and they didnt vote to save town they just didnt vote at all.

I know this post is a bit older, but still: Can you explain why you originally scumread Munch (she was your number one scumread at the beginning of Day 2 I think), even although it was on false assumptions? I was wondering about that anyway as you never explained it. Also I didn't really got your post above, how come you to the conclusion that Loop being town means as well that Magik is town? (and thus Munch town?)

I missed it, where is he talking about Munch in detail?

Nevermind, for some reason I had in mind he had written more about this one besides #992. I guess I had some posts about this matter from the previous day still in mind and mixed it up. I stand corrected.

Anyways, I probably could have entertained a Thespio/Munch team day 1 with my read on Thespio being wrong but I'm not sure Thespio comes out against Munch day 2 this way? Take that with a grain of salt because he's still voting me off the back of Enters vague read.

There isn't any real reason to eliminate any of a group of 4 (munch,Thespio,Muh,Skellen) when there are two scum and possibly both within that grouping.

I will say that Magik is the only slot to appear on both but I'm not sure scum particularly needed to be that bold when skellen and I both offered to hammer the Lynch before deadline. There wasn't really a fear from scums side of the Lynch not going through or flipping at the last second.

@Thespio/Munch scumteam:
However Thespio never really did anything against Munch on Day 2. See above in my post the part I addressed at Thespio. I would rule out Thespio/Munch on a different basis though. Back in Day 1 when the wagon against your slot started rolling with being put at L-2 by Loop, Munch voted for Thespio which was the second vote. Elements' vote change from Pvt to Thespio L-2 came shortly after that before Thespio equalized with voting Pvt. I find it unlikely that someone would choose his/her scum partner as counterwagon to a town wagon (assuming you are town).

Otherwise I can follow your train of thought with this group of 4. Since you are set on Munch for now, who do you think could fit the best to her out of these four? If you don't disagree with me we could leave Thespio out. Also what do you think of Munch/Magik? I am particularly asking this because I can't follow your argument about Magik in the quote. What was so bold about his behaviour at the end of Day 1?

While I myself was looking a lot on the Loop wagon for today so far I would also like to ask how likely it is in your opinion that both scum could have been on the Loop wagon?

[Skellen]

On a side note I share Enter's frustration with Thespio. He is so erratic that it always throws me off. Like I understood the vote on muh as he is for me the biggest scumread so far, but why now the change and why even the vote on RCE in the first place?
I am going to be furious if he doesn't end up as town in the end.

On another note I find the case against RCE rather weak after rethinking it for a bit. The speculation about the reasons why Pvt could have replaced out is useless imo as there can be dozen of reasons which could all be interpreted differently. The Pvt burden is of course there as he was a scumball through and through, but his voting behaviour is indeed nothing that would speak against him as it was either hammer or voting offside the wagons (in this case: muh). Plus I think he has some good thoughts with trying to solve this here with different constellations, although I would have hoped that he would go in some cases more into details (and thus it kind of lacks the pressure) as it is sometimes difficult to follow. For me no choice for the lynch at the moment, but I still want to look on some things here.

@Munch:
I know you didn't had the time to write about Thespio yet, but since two of your three suspects have a good chance to get lynched today and you hadn't it exactly said yet: Who of these two is more suspicious to you and you are tending to lynch at the moment? Depending on that how would Thespio fit into this with his acting recently?

[Skellen]

I can agree that thank you for the reference point. Was Loopdan a wagon at that point? Or was it just Pvt and Thespio?

I said that regarding Magik because both end of day wagons ended up being town. Originally he was on the Elements wagon until the claim. Obviously the Lynch is going to be Loop at that point since it was so close to end of day so there really wasn't much reason to have a presence on both wagons as scum. Loop would have been lynched without scum intervention. They may have already been on the wagon but I don't think Magik moving to loop is any way to indicate that.

I think when I was catching up I entertained muh with Munch as I hadn't necessarily scumread Munch at that point. But I think there was something I read that made me put that combination on pause but I don't remember what exactly so I'll have to come back to that.

Munch is an ambiguous slot, I may have been doing a lazy job catching up or I was just rushing. But at no point did Munch stand out to me day 1 at all and without going through her iso I couldn't tell you anything she said or did day 1. That's not necessarily scum indicative but it makes associations difficult. Which is why I leaned on the Vote logic.

The whole story started with #125 and from there on everything is on the same page. Enter's vote is just five posts later before the Thespio wagon started. Muh's vote came after all of these votes.

I see, so you mean scum would just stay away then and not vote. Well, maybe. I think the last votes don't matter that much anymore when it is shortly before the deadline with the main wagon roleclaiming. Tbh I even expeted that someone would start another wagon, so I was a bit surprised when it ended pretty calmly.

The part with Munch/muh would be good as I am currently checking any connections muh has with others. Also I always have the anxious feeling that I am overlooking something with Munch.

[Skellen]

Yes, I scumread Elements too and thought it was scummy to vote townread with a lot of time left. But calling it scummiest post of the game. Jumping on it like that.... I don't think so. It seems too much. The only thing that I don't know is what scum!Thespio would gain from such a vote switch. It is one town to another. Maybe searching for PR, since Loop claimed VT (I think Muh talked about this).

O mean, what is an answer to: do you know a PR? Should he say: yes, I think a PR is ****. I mean PR should claim on D1 only when under intent to hammer. So why try to start conversation about it?!

All this things make it really hard for me to trust Thespio, even when he says and does townie things.
And lets's not forget - Elements, when asked who his scumread would be if Loop flipped town said Thespio.

The vote switch can be interpreted in different ways. I thought it would have been too conspicious to switch from the strongest wagon to a complete new wagon, particularly in context of Thespio himself being the counterwagon to Loop with 3 wagons and he had too fear that the two-person-entity Magikloop (jk Magik) could switch too Thespio and thus hammering him, although I think they never hinted anything in that direction back then. Which is a major reason why I townread him or he was very confident he would have had a better shot for a mislynch with Elements (some people stated that they had Elements on their list).
After all the Elements case was that strong to begin with because Elements was unfortunately a really easy victim to lynch with his faux pas. What muh said about power role scouting also made some sense, although I generally have the impression that scum would act more passive when this wagons have settled, but here the experienced players know probably more. If Thespio's intention was to start a stronger wagon who would rather go through than the Loop wagon and pass his own wagon than I think it would have been very likely that his scum partner helped, but that would only leave Magik as the others were you or Loop.

Anyway, something else. One thing that bugs me in your post is that you that you critizes Thespio's vote post where he accuses Elements. Now that can be done, but it's not the interesting point. Also pointing out his role fishing attempts, I criticized them as well when I confronted Loop about something similar. These are arguments I could agree with.
However he was your main suspect and he did the role fishing before the Elements wagon when you had already voted him and the very vote/post you criticize is the one that started the wagon you joined. Why weren't you questioning the wagon back then when it started and joined it nevertheless? In contrast to the Loop wagon: At the beginning when Enter got started you agreed with him in a lot of things and could see where the Loop wagon came from and looked at it critically enough to decide that this wagon was too fishy for you. Yet you follow the case of your main suspect? I find it odd, mainly because now that you are bringing up the reasons that you seemingly have overlooked back then when you voted Elements up to L-1.

[Skellen]

On another note, since Loop got mad with me as he falsely thought I voted him up to L-1 back in Day 1, I am going to vote muh in around 3-4 hours before i go to sleep which would be L-1 for him. This day isn't lasting that long anymore and I am not sure how my online times are tomorrow.

I can't honestly see someone scummier at the moment than him as his Day 1 play looks to me like the blueprint of scum play. Can't be helped that he did at Day 2 exactly that what I would have expected from scum-muh with going only after people outside the Loop wagon as it would be smarter for scum to not fish in the same pool you are in to reduce your own hideout.

[Skellen]

as it would be smarter for scum to not fish in the same pool you are in to reduce your own hideout.

to not reduce your own hideout.

For crying out loud...

[Skellen]

Let's take a look at the intersection between the Loop wagon and Elements wagon.

Enter
Muh
Elements
Magik
Skellen
Thespio
Munch
Loop


Out of these 8 people, we have 2 confirmed town. 1 is myself so I'll take that out. The other is Enter who's not in scum discussion so I'll take him out. Let's also take you out as well. That leaves 4.

Enter

Muh

Elements

Magik

Skellen

Thespio
Munch

Loop

This leaves everyone that was on the Elements wagon. If I look at the Loop wagon the only person that's scum for me is Magik. If you look at it from my point of view the Loop wagon doesn't make sense to even look at.

Maybe. My problem here is the lack of train of thought. Like even now it took until #1184 until I heard it for the first time something about me from you while Thespio hovers for the whole game above you with you always bringing him up without any consequence (to take two from the Loop wagon). I can understand that you won't dig through all of his posts, I haven't the time for it either, but it looks like beating around the bush instead of picking crucial actions from Thespio out and to judge him through these.
Drifted a little bit apart, the point is you went in a straight line after Loop the first day without caring too much about the rest and once Loop dropped dead you went in a straight line after Magik/RCE. And this something I can't get behind as townie. One of the greatest problems of town is that almost no townies found each other, if we exclude me and Enter. Thus I see a lot of second-guessing (even from Enter) therefore it's noticable for me if someone just goes with an odd certainty after one target after the other. I am seeing it only with one other person and that is RCE who has transformed into a sitting duck sticking to Munch. I simply couldn't do it at this state of the game.

While I am at it, care to elaborate what on the Elements wagon gave you the scumlean on Munch?

Also what is it that makes the case against RCE that strong in your eyes? As I can see the points brought up are the replacement thing. I already commented on it how it could be interpreted in multiple ways and don't really want to list all possible ideas. In the end one can only lose him-/herself in these and come up with a biased interpretation that fits to the own agenda.
Otherwise there is the lack of voting during Day 1 (his stance on this is comprehensible though) and the self-scumread, which is indeed weird, errhh but I don't know, that's a small thing at this point of the game.
The only good point, where I agreed with you, is the lack of pressure by his side. For someone who is deadset on lynching Munch there isn't coming much from his side, even when I tried to reach out to him in this matter. But I don't really see what scum-RCE would accomplish with it either, as he sticks out in the end with that behaviour.

[Skellen]

Guess I am waiting with my vote until tomorrow though. Somehow I should manage. Sigh... this game.

[Skellen]

Would still like to hear more from Magik. Have been rereading you today and can't help but notice that you were so far only focused on muh and defending yourself (to be fair, you were actually accused greatly by muh) or the typical banter with Enter. Tbh I have no clue where you are standing right now. I share the suspicion towards muh, but how do you think about RCE now that he has been longer in this game? What about Munch and Thespio's behaviour today?

[Skellen]

I disagree. If I find someone scummy I'm going to go after them and ask them questions. I didn't spend D1 speculating on possible scum suspects like others did that were contingent on Loops flip. There were so much discussion of "If Loop is scum/town, then this player is also scum/town" all of which is now pointless. That's probably why you didn't see me write potential scum suspects. Adding on to that, I had some back and forth with Magik D1, so this isn't something that came out of nowhere.

Also, didn't Magik go in a straight line after me starting D2? Didn't RCE go after Munch? Didn't Thespio go after RCE and Me? If you can't get behind me going after other players and calling them scummy, then you should also be calling out the other players.

"Asking questions". Well, you were pretty generous when it came to Loop. Went back and looked through your posts on Day 1 to find only one question. And that was the one why he wasn't looking on his own wagon for scum, which was even wrong. Not counting the general questions like the one with the scum-selfhammer or risking a no-lynch with last minute wagon. You voted him, judged him guilty from the beginning and had no interest to question anything.
I am willing to concede to you the point with Magik/Loop though as this would solidify the scum-Loop suspicion.

The other point was that you actually were speculating (if one could call it like that) with throwing Thespio, Elements and Pvt in just to neglect them. This is in hindsight for me particularly noteworthy as you basically said in #1201 "Looking at the slot as a whole, given the inactivity, lack of voting, and scummy D1 entrance it makes a good case for a lynch.". These are all things that applied to the Pvt/RCE slot at the first day. Yet besides the self-scumread comment there was nothing in that direction.
Btw would it really have mattered less to you if RCE would have hammered Loop/Elements or parked his vote offside the main attraction on you or someone else?

For the lower part of the quote: Yes Magik did on Day 2 and I called him out on that (admittedly after the post addressed to you), however he was more active in that regard during Day 1 with you and Elements or his treatment from scumlean Loop to town Loop. I get your point in that regard though but to me that is far different than you during Day 1.
RCE was kind of the same before he switched on Day 2 to his strange behaviour, I agree with that although I think in theoretical discussions he is making more sense.
Thespio has nothing to do with straight lines, he is like a drunken driver who drives in wiggly lines that it is a miracle he didn't hit anything yet to refer to his unpredictable suspicions with a metaphor (sorry Thespio, I didn't meant it in a rude way), so I have no idea why you bring him up.

[Skellen]

There isn't really a way I can better articulate why I believe Munch to be scum other than what I've already outlined. The alternative and the only thing that would make my assumption untrue is if Enter was just scum pushing Loop day 1 or the team is something like Thespio/Muh.

So ultimately you wouldn't go so far that your scum-Munch case is that confirmed if there is a chance for fault?

This is the one thing I don't get about you and why I can't help but be see you stuck on scumlean for me. You suspect Munch which is fine, yet you aren't even really trying?

[Skellen]

There are a couple major forces pushing for lynches today. There's a Muh push (which I'm hesitant on), a Munch push (which I'm opposed to) a Thespio push (which is viable, but I'm not sure about) and an RCE/Magik push which I've grouped solely because I feel identically on them (the pressure is mostly off of my opinion of what is and isn't town play or correct play as well as PoE.)

To come back to that, this situation is exactly why I am feeling so uncomfortable about the current state of the game. Everything is so wide-spread and deadlocked that I can't help but feel like everything is comfortable for scum or we really have both scum up for the lynch. I don't know what to make out of it. And we have nearly ran out of time.

To raise the stakes for now: VOTE: muh316

Should just be L-2 for now. I will look back into the thread tomorrow morning like in 6 hours. Since I will be at work I have to sneak to the toilet or something like that to post here, so I won't be able to write much at all but it should be enough for votes und unvotes. Depending on muh's next answer and if he can clear my doubts about him or not I will decide if my vote remains on him or if I will unvote. To be honest despite me still seeing some points critical about muh I thought some of his recent posts were good and could be seen consistent with his play, even for Day 1.

If it is not muh it would actually lead me to a dilemma. I think both Thespio and Munch are both candidates that might be better to judge on the next day depending on the next flips which leaves RCE by PoE. And there I only see the Pvt burden and the lack of pressure, particularly on his own case, as scummy points. And being on the same wagon with muh doesn't feel that comfortable either... also that what Munch said in #1214. Blergh. Yeah, no choice, muh --> RCE it is for me as lynch order so far nothing outrageous happens tonight.

[Skellen]

You guys are driving me nuts, what a dramatic day.

Some wild thoughts based on votes and interactions however without any details. So take it for what it is.

If muh flips scum there are only Thespio who threw him under the bus then and Munch left, who hesitates in voting him.

If muh flips town Thespio can only be a team with Magik as Munch and RCE are very unlikely. Magik goes additionally with Munch, maybe RCE but not so sure with him ditching the muh wagon.

RCE and Munch are kind of the outsider here.

Dunno if that helps concerning a decision, it's a matter of which possibilities you would rather see cut off.

[Skellen]

That said I can see where muh is coming from, which makes it hard. At the moment I leave my vote on him as I see myself better prepared for Day 3 with the informations of his role.

If you guys want to lynch RCE I keep an eye on the thread to offer the hammer.

[Skellen]

You think Muh is being bussed here?

I find it unlikely . Thespio's vote would seem so unnecessary if he would be his partner. Which is what makes me doubting more with muh, it only leaves Munch.

[Skellen]

It's a rough draft that isn't considering everything.

I think in case of town muh the most roads would lead to Magik. But even that wouldn't have to mean much.

Yeah, that is the one possibility I forgot to write down. Both being scum would be the best case. I am indifferent with muh ditching Magik so that he can go after RCE.

[Skellen]

Time is up.

And here I thought we couldn't get any more pathetic.

PEdit: Does that vote still count?

[Skellen]

Aw, we got the bad ending. Well played, guys. Particularly RCE was really impressive on Day 3 walking the thin line between Thespio and muh until Enter had made his mind up. No one were thinking about you anymore.

[Skellen]

I feel really dumb. I pushed Thespio day 2 because I thought he was a PR and I wanted to save him from a NK. And then munch pushed too and I was like "ha, she's scum cuz she's pushing someone other than the two people on the table today."

No need to feel bad, at Day 2 I thought for a while RCE was a tracker and thus went soft on him and harder against the wrong person until I dismissed it after some exchange with RCE. It's kind of awkward to handle when a suspicous person looks like a PR.

Realized at Day 2 I was the only newbie with Munch left. Hah, of all games to join I choose the one with the "hard" difficulty so kind of good to see everybody seeing it as an unusual newbie game. At least there is a lot to take from.