Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[Skellen]

teacher! That's my first time playing with a familiar face again. What happened to the IC thing?

Also VOTE: TheASC

[Skellen]

So this is my first non-IC newbie game. Welcome everyone, and skellen especially from our history. I had a custom of posing some introductory questions to get the game started:

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

Mostly shameless copy & paste from last game:

1. Played only offline games, have now played two newbie games here which were both quite opposite experiences.
2. Eh, I just play. I like figuring things out and as town you have nothing to lose so no point in holding back, thus I like this more. I try to gather as many informations as I can and see where it leads to.
3. Never rolled scum, so no idea. Offline I am terrible as I am no good at lying and can't even keep a poker face for ten seconds. People say I tend to be more passive and unmotivated which probably fits given the lack on necessity to figure things out.
4. I look for consistencies and inconsistencies, at one point scum is bound to make mistakes if they get engaged enough. Normally. Of course looking for obvious scumtells like rolefishing etc. With each played game here always adding up some other points to look out for. What gives town away to me depends on how comprehensible their play is to me and if I can see where their thoughts are coming from, even if I should disagree with some thoughts.

[Skellen]

4. Lurking

Is this a thing of experience from your games here? I kind of learned that lurking looks rather NAI to me or like a double-edged sword considering that alone in my last game at least a third of the player line-up were for a good part of the game town lurkers. Although it might depend on

how

they are lurking.

this feels scummy but like id rather jokevote for now

I agree that his post with the vote looks scummy as if he just threw it in after realizing everyone else is doing it to meld with the others. However when this feels scummy to you, why beating around the bush and not going straight for the second vote on him instead of a jokevote? Especially if you say yourself that you like to go for early pushes and the game has a slow start.

[Skellen]

From what I can tell, RVS votes are intended to generate discussion early on, so I thought the best way to do that would be to vote for someone that had (at that point) neither posted nor been voted by anyone else. Sekaedy was essentially random from the two people that fit that criteria (him and ajmeri1232).

Why would it have been best to vote people who haven't said anything yet? For all we know these two haven't even read their role PM yet considering the game started with seven confirmations (and seven people have posted so far). Why not voting for someone who has posted here so far or even voting someone up to two votes if you want to generate discussion considering you were late to RVS? That's more likely to cause a reaction after all.

[Skellen]

I wanted to wait a little for reactions

Meh. What kind of better reactions could you have hoped for with voting no lynch instead of pushing a person that is giving you scummy vibes? I mean you voted later when Persivul did the first step, but errrh... I don't understand the reluctance at first.

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie.

Can you explain what lamist means in this context with ASC? I know what it stands for, but after having read it several times (in both positive and negative ways, I think) I don't really get how it is supposed to get interpreted as it sounds like it can be judged in any way.

[Skellen]

It may seem like I'm defending TheASC here, and take away from that whatever you wish, obviously at this stage I have no idea whether they're scum or not and I'm not committing to any town read on them at this point. I personally voted Skellen mostly because they hadn't been voted yet, whether in fear of being seen as 'sheeping', or just seeing if I could get a reaction that hadn't been obtained yet. I assume TheASC may have done something similar. (Re-reading his post he actually said exactly that).

What imo is the difference between your (or any other) and ASC's vote is imo his need for justifying for shoving his vote in later after all the others immediately voted. Imo that wasn't even necessary as RVS is pretty arbitrarily as GW said in another post. It looks a little bit defensive for such a trivial matter. The vote itself is ok.

Then again, you know him probably better than most of us, would you say it's rather a clumsy newbslip by ASC or is that more out of character for him to explain/justify himself over such small things?

On another note one thing pings me off here though. Why were you afraid of "sheeping" in RVS? Or to put it the other way: afraid of what?

[Skellen]

Similar to Zeito, I wanted to get an input from all the players if possible. I thought this would be a good way to get one of the final 2 players active as I believe that the best way to win games like that is to get input from as many people as possible. If you get everyone talking, you can bounce ideas off each other and later on compare SRs etc.

I see. Happens that instead the talk is more about you though. So to look from another angle: what do you think of the wagon on you?

[Skellen]

@teacher:
What makes chennis for you easy

caught scum

? The timing of his vote?

Also were you satisfied with ASC's answer to your #20? Just wondered that you didn't persuade him further as I thought he gave a pretty generic response, which seemed kind of unusual for you to let him off the hook that fast.

[Skellen]

Largely disagree with this, scum has no reason to quickhammer day 1, especially with both players quickhammering.

This is actually a thing though. Something similar happened in my last game when town unvoted to avoid a premature hammer with both scum rushing in always putting the vote back to L-1 to provoke the announced hammer. I kind of agree with you though, because imo it's dumb considering everything is blowing right into their faces after such a move.

@teacher:
I see, that explains for me why you acted like that, but I will look forward for the detailed answer and respond to it then.

OT: Anyone else having issues with the site loading? Couldn't access to this site for like half the day. Needed an eternity just for this single post.

[Skellen]

Because when they get back and see a wagon on them, they’ll freak out and defend as soon as possible, which will make scumtelling way easier. I disagree with your view here, the reason you vote is to apply pressure and you don’t have reads on inactive / lurking people, obviously, so why would I vote for someone that is talking considering they will be most likely pushed because of their activity, while lurkers slip under the radar. You don’t have to keep a tunnel vision and only suspect the active player pool, keep lurkers in check.

While teacher already called me out why my assumption regarding Sekaedy was wrong, I am not ok with leaving it at that.

I disagree that pressuring inactives/lurkers with voting is better than pressuring active players. Your push on Sekaedy is a good example for this. This guy hasn't been around for two days, that's hitting a rock with a stick. He doesn't care and he won't care as he is most likely right now on the highway to getting replaced. Thus it would be going nowhere and just be a waste of time with pressuring him. Pushing inactives in general isn't a good approach here, as they get replaced anyway (which is why I never bothered with your predecessors as example). It's imo far more beneficial to use the time we have to pressure active players first to form some first impressions as we don't have to wait until they show up and if possible eventually forming a townblock with them in best case after figuring them out. From there it becomes PoE where the lurkers see the short end of the stick if they don't contribute. I don't see why it should have higher priority to go after inactives/lurkers when the day is long enough to engage with people who are actually posting regularly? Especially in a slow paced game like this.

I agree that lurkers shouldn't be allowed to slip under the radar, but in my games here I have seen enough versions of town!lurkers that it matters to me how they lurk to make them worth for a push as I implied in #24. I am thinking here particularly of lurkers that always show up when they get mentioned or act pretty reactionary/defensive with showing no initiative to figure the game out or dodging the replacement with writing one meaningless post. But Sekaedy doesn't even lurk, he is just inactive.

[Skellen]

People I will vote: teacher, GrandWazoo

Going by your answers for teacher's questions I can see where you are coming from regarding GW as I had a similar thought.

But why teacher?

[Skellen]

What's the deal with the teacher wagon anyway? o.o

So far I can only follow SR's thoughts on this, although I don't really agree with them. Why would teacher defend someone inactive and what does he gain by buddying an inactive player? I agree however that just activity isn't a good defence.

@Zeito:
Can you elaborate on your actual case against teacher? Last I read about it from you it was about the "Why not make a joke?" thing.

[Skellen]

As for chennisden, I believe this could be a possibility for scum, trying to push TheASC and waiting but only being confident after teacher's vote, but I'm not really sure if this is inherently scummy or just not completely confident / feeling it is the best lynch.

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

Above: teacher didn't voted for ASC, it was Persivul after whom chennis voted.

I have mixed feelings about ASC. I have no problems to admit that the case against him is weak and was originally more in order to get the game going with an early push as it was awfully slow. I am not sure about his acting since he was voted up to L-2 he was pretty reactionary. No initiative. I had to pull it out of his nose to question the people who are voting him. I would think you would be interested why people are voting you and confront them? Not sure what to make out of it if he just got that reluctant after the first push or he simply didn't bothered. I will rethink the whole thing tomorrow though as I can see I am the only one with chennis who is at this point on this wagon and I am not that stubborn.

@SR:
While I am at it and you townread ASC. Can you explain the read? My laid down problems are above and in #56.

[Skellen]

Good lord, so much to catch up.

As I stated, I kinda liked Sekaedy's imitation of Zeito's wording, which did seem off to me as well. The fact that it mirrored it so soon after made me feel Sekaedy was reading and paying attention. Its not a full townread, but the motives for that wording are +town.

As this thing has become an unexpected big issue: What seemed so off about Zeito's wording? I understood it that he wanted to position himself against you with his vote as he didn't liked your "Why not a joke?" post. And why would it be town-indicating that Sekaedy mirrored it? For all we know he might have just looked at the last vote before him and copied the statement without much thought. And what is the consequence out of it? Would it imply scum motivation behind Zeito's original statement, hence Seakedy would have noticed it and is mocking Zeito? I am actually lost at the meaning of the mocking part.

I am actually on this one with SR. I agree with you that single posts can be alignment indicative, but this particular post/statement is too far of a stretch in my eyes.

PEdit: What!? Page 7? Yeah, I am stuck in the past, just deal with it that I am not up to date yet, guys. I will just post in between.

[Skellen]

At the moment, I don’t believe your case is enough for me to put my vote on ASC and his posts look town imo, at this stage it’s mostly based on guts. I think his rvs post might look scummy, but I don’t think you should make a case against that, I agree with his mentality and I don’t see that rvs coming from scum, because they want to lynch active townies, not lurkers who most likely won’t get any more than 2 votes on them until like Day3 or so.I believe in the innocent until proven guilty, and for now, your case didn’t change my perception on ASC’s alignment because it was an rvs vote you made a case upon.

Fair enough, in terms of mentality we just happen to have different views, but I can see where you are coming from at this one. Although I think you are focussed here too much on the RVS, which was the origin, but for me the behaviour later is more bothersome. Since he has joined the ranks of the inactives now it has become a dead horse anyway, so I can as well UNVOTE: TheASC

[Skellen]

1. Yes, the timing of his vote put it over the edge for me. But more so that I see nothing town-advancing in his ISO. His answer to question 2 suggests an aggressiveness that is lacking. His answer to number 4 is one word and not that accurate or helpful. But more broadly, it is the lack of any questions or desire to solve -- he joined a momentum wagon without contributing.

Regarding chennis I am with you there. It bothers me far more that he is chilling here with his ASC vote feeling all good with it (not that I disagree), but him not persuading ASC nor trying to win people over for the the ASC case although he is so convinced with his lynch gives me a negative impression too. I found his info on SR more likely being town due to playstyle useful though, even although I can only take it on face value as I have no time to check other player's games.

[Skellen]

Persivul seems to have some decent reading following his lynch which makes me inclined to believe he’s scumhunting even though he gave this reasoning later. I hadn’t realised Sekaedy voted me for... forced wording? “position myself wherever I see necessary” vs whatever exactly Sekaedy said... I initially thought he was voting me purely for RVS, or possibly a gutread. Posting on forums makes me feel like I’m writing a letter, so I wouldn’t be surprised if my wording came off a little stiff. Reading into that and using it as reasoning for a lynch without being explicit that’s the reason you’re lynching it is beyond me, though. teacher giving a townread for this is also strange - I would at least expect them to be reading, and wouldn’t townread someone for it. I would like to hear from Sekaedy himself though, rather than teacher’s commentary on it.

I think I asked you already that, but you didn't respond to it. On what exactly is your vote on teacher based at? I think originally it was that "make a joke" comment by teacher that threw you off, however teacher clarified in #62 this issue. Is it now because of his Sekaedy "townread"? I am wondering because you were on teacher as the first person and when he was the hot iron that got discussed today you were rather a bystander and didn't persuaded him further.

[Skellen]

Skelleden, I take it you're a rather analytical person, thoughts on my interaction with teacher? Do you support my read on him? I'd like to get ASC and Zeito on this as well.

Tbh I was a little bit indifferent, especially because I began leaning on town!teacher starting with his posts since #112 as these looked for me more like his usual informative posts that I know. I understood that his "townread" for Sekaedy's wording pinged you off. As I said I could follow you on this as I also think that it is a stretch. When I read that interaction first I was personally more interested on what assumptions this observation by teacher was based on as you two never came down on that but bantered about if Sekaedy did mirror Zeito's words (at least teacher) although the if isn't that interesting in this matter as it should be clear, hence my question in one of my former posts.

However I thought the push against teacher was standing on shaky legs. I took it that you were assuming scum!teacher and scum!Sekaedy and that was imo kind of a bit too speculative as basis for the assumption as we have basically zero on Sekaedy. My problem was that I couldn't see the necessity why scum!teacher would give such a strange townread on his inactive scum partner when it would have been more wise for him to just wait for the replacement who would have a fresh start from zero instead of this ambiguous townread.
On the other hand assuming town!Sekaedy I couldn't see the benefit of scum!teacher townreading an inactive town slot as it would gain him nothing.

Which is why I said I didn't agree with the reasons for the push. If these interactions had any effect, then that teacher imo solidified my positive impression about him because I liked how calmly he handled you without counterattacking you and instead staying true to the facts, although I would have liked some more explanation as I said.
I know you asked for my opinion on your read on teacher, but as I am late here and I noticed while skimming the thread that your read has changed I feel it's kind of pointless addressing this, but going by the time you asked me I would have disagreed with a scumread on teacher.

On the other hand I liked Persivul's #123 as I thought his reasons were pretty comprehensible, even although I thought that most of these points could have been handled with just asking teacher (which is exactly how some were resolved).

[Skellen]

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

This is my new townblock:

Wazoo, teacher, me, asc and zeito, although I’d like more posts from both of them

What I find really weird here is why you suddenly townlock teacher after seemingly giving up on arguing with them and shifting earlier.

Personally I am more wondering how GW suddenly popped up there.

[Skellen]

My vote on teacher was mostly based on my belief that chennisden seemed like an easy push after he decided to vote for TheASC only after somebody else did. The "make a joke" thing did come off as strange to me also. However, chennisden has done nothing to indicate to me that he is a easy push that flips town, so looking back I'm starting to feel more and more like his vote was justified. Regarding his Sekaedy townread, I genuinely have no idea why you would townread a player off of this still, it comes across more as lurking than anything, but iirc I placed my vote before this, so my original reasoning wouldn't've been based on that.

Yes you did before that. But that was not the point. As I said teacher clarified what his motivations were behind the joke comment, which was the original reason iirc. I was just wondering as you never reflected on that and instead just sticked to teacher until his townreads where the hot topic. Looking back I also saw that you were prodded though, so maybe it might have been because of absence.

[Skellen]

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

I can see where you are coming from regarding the wagon-hopping etc., but what makes it in SR's case different from Persivul who is basically doing the same? (also with Sekaedy)
Yes, saying what PRs have to do is one of the biggest triggers for me I agree with you on that. I didn't persuaded it because when I did in my first game I was kind of told that it would be ok so I assumed that would be the consensus here, although it's a big no for me and scum-indicative.
He explained his change of mind regarding chennis imo well, although it is coming from the directing PRs issue.
The point about him saying your vote being RVS despite not being so as you stated already is valid, but I am not sure what to make of it. He has done this several times forgetting such things like with chennis' reads or during his 1v1 with teacher. Either he isn't paying that much attention to it or it's just in character for him. chennis might be able to say more about it.
I interpreted his push on teacher as testing out the waters to get a more clear impression of him. I agree that it ultimately was about trivial matters as he could have delved deeper with asking some questions about the motivation of teacher's townread instead of just the very existence of the townread. What do you think would be the intention of scum!SR pushing teacher about such a trivial matter? It would look odd to me if scum tries such a flashy push on the other most active player at Day 1.

I am not really convinced from scum!SR, but I must admit that some of your points are valid. It weakens at least my original townlean on him, also because I am not really a fan of shenanigans like "Please hammer me" while I have already seen scum doing similar stuff.

[Skellen]

Also a lot of people have been asking me "why haven't you moved your vote off of ASC?"

I did. I voted scum reading for a little.

Personally I am more interested why you never tried to win people over for ASC when you were so confident that he was scum and not why you didn't moved your vote off him.

I don't like Wazoo's slot, he seems to know a lot more than he should

Can you elaborate about that what makes you uneasy about GW?

[Skellen]

@SR:
The whole thing with pressuring Persivul that failed aside, why would you have liked to pressure him? I get it that you were unsatisfied with him letting teacher off the hook too fast, but his reasoning for doing so was solid as it showed that he was reflecting on his arguments which is imo rather a positive indication.

[Skellen]

After I mentioned the "letting off the hook so easily" he followed up with a question for teacher. If a town would clear someone as not mafia, why would they keep interrogating them at someone's request, if not because they felt they were being scum read.

I don't think that this could be scum-indicative. Persivul said in #123 that he isn't concerned about teacher as much as before, but still concerned. I see no reason why he shouldn't have kept questioning teacher just because his suspicion on him has been declined a bit. If something at this point was strange then it was vote switch to Sekaedy.

[Skellen]

I have no time to check other player's games.

Talk to me a little bit more about this. You are playing a similar meta, but less involved than our last game. I just havent felt your drive as much, even though your questions and comments still feel on point. Whats going on?

Regarding the part you quoted: To be fair I always focus only on the on-going game as I have a very small time window to invest here. Thus I lack the time to read other player's meta, at most I do read other games in between my games.

Your observation for this current game is spot on. It's a mix of irl issues and that I feel kind of disjointed as I feel I am more busy with catching up this game. I was already writing my cases on chennis and GW just to ditch the drafts as new posts came in from them that changed my mind regarding them (although in chennis less than in GW's case). If you are interested I can roughly paraphrase them tomorrow, but they aren't interesting as they are invalid at this point.

I still want to take a look at SR's, chennis' and again GW's as some other ISOs but I can't finish that today. I like your approach with the "emergency" lynch as ASC's return was really lackluster. As I am afraid I might be able to look into thread at night again I will wait what nsg is going to say regarding the deadline and the replacement before deciding where to place my vote, I don't really like having the Sekaedy slot as lynch option with absolutely zero informations or moving towards ending the day before anything new comes in regarding this slot.

[Skellen]

Who do you want to lynch?

Kind of implied in my former post, I am fine with ASC or chennis if it comes to the lurker slots. Persivul would be a no for me. I am particularly rereading you and GW to come to a conclusion regarding this case although I am right now leaning on teacher's view in this matter.

[Skellen]

Sekaedy idk I'll wait till someone fills that slot...

That was poorly phrased by me. I meant that Persivul also switched with his vote to Sekaedy as SR after him. But I got your answer.

It wasn't just what he did, but when he did it - i.e. straight out of the gate.

Ah sorry, now I see it, I thought you meant his chennis vote after his teacher clash, I almost forgot that he already did it far earlier while also voting. Point for you, that looks indeed strange. Have to reread the context though.

[Skellen]

And once there is wagon on ASC he pops up again. I agree with urap (again replacing in) about ASC's reads post, it was pretty uninteresting. The post looks to me more dutiful than authentic (small mistakes like L-3 also imply to me that it was done rather inattentively).
Not really buying the doctor claim considering his play so far in this game, but I get how the procedure is from here on and that we have to roll with it for today. Have to check if there is a hint or something like that hidden in his posts.

I take it that the current lynch pool with regard to the deadline consists of chennis, SR and GW? My thoughts on this:
While rereading SR has been a rollercoaster to me, it's driving me nuts. I stand by it that his hyperactive play rather indicates town motivations, however when he was pressured I didn't like his behaviour as he became pretty defensive and the "please hammer me", "if I die pressure Persivul etc." comments really ping me off, I don't like these. Positive is however that he tried to get back into his game after that with pursuing Persivul. His swift reads changes confuse me however. Somewhere after he let go off teacher he voted GW, then planned to pressure Persivul together with GW who was suddenly in his townblock (now not of course). His ASC vote was bad, even I would have instantly voted him for that. The whole game he townreads ASC (which was already questionable imo given his attitude towards lurkers) and when he is under pressure he is ready to ditch ASC just like that. That looks pretty survivalistic. I liked his explanations later though and they looked authentic as if he would genuinely been reflecting on his reads. As chennis also urap advocates for town!SR because his scum play looks different than his play here. Two people doing this is assuring me a little bit in this regard even although it's all face value. Would rather not lynch today.

It's however imo noteworthy that ASC, if we assume scum!ASC, went after chennis though. Going by what happened we know that GW, Persivul and chennis have voted for SR before and that teacher was willing to hammer him if necessary. So basically a SR lynch would have needed only one vote (given Persivul and chennis would go back to their SR votes after the ASC claim) which could have come from ASC. Instead he is his strongest townread and he went somewhere else.

Which is btw why chennis isn't for me an option for today's lynch either. Not that I think chennis is that towny, but it worries me that ASC is going after him. In a scenario with scum!ASC I doubt he would go after his scum partner considering he is a realistic lynch option when he has other options. That would indicate town!chennis imo, unless this is a desparate bussing attempt as they figured that the claim isn't that convincing. But it wouldn't be smart, so I doubt the latter. In any case this iron is too hot for me to touch.

So PoE leaves GW. Making a cut before wall escalates as I see GW is already at L-1. PEdit: And GW unvoted so I guess SR is out of today's lynch and ASC just became happy with a GW lynch. All I just wrote became pointless. Sigh.

[Skellen]

Oh well, screw everything else, that was the hammer, I guess?

[Skellen]

I just got back home and skimmed the thread, very kind of asking to get me replaced when the day starts here at night and I can only post properly here in the evening. What the hell am I supposed to do, getting up an hour earlier? Certainly not.

Have stuff to do and will comment in roughly two hours when I am free. Don't want to slow things down though as I see that urap is once again coming up with a massclaim, which makes this time sense though. VT, that's all.

[Skellen]

okay now that post reminds me of your newbie scum game - esp the lylo phase

You basically did it already in #511, but I have no time to read another game, so can you break it down and explain where your regress in your townread on SR is coming from? It's quite noteworthy considering that you set up the meta protection shield around SR (along with chennis, who ditched his metaread quickly however) saying his plays are different like day and night (GW called me out on that when I explained my read on SR). The evolution from strong town to pinging you to scum happened quickly. Why is his frustration/impatience to push chennis (vs himself) now scummier than on Day 1 when he was basically doing the same with being frustrated with the game state and aggressively pushing into all directions? Not that I am fond of ending the day that quickly either, but his basic behaviour doesn't seem that different imo.

What is btw so scum indicative about his post where he explains his chennis vote? It's imo a solid case as he is right that chennis basically lacks a backbone and is pursuing things rather half-hearted. Many posts of chennis alone today support that like "It could be A, but it could also be B... = no consequence".

[Skellen]

Persivul's first posts about the setup sitaution are strange. He explains it later, but I find it difficult to believe he hasn't taken a look at the setup during the night. It was literally the most interesting thing after the Jailkeeper flip and doc claim, surely I wasn't the only person who was curious about the ASC claim situation.

Was thinking about a setup slip at first but he should be way too experienced to make such mistakes. The only thing I wonder why ASC's claim was a good claim for him? If that would be the case we wouldn't have any problems with discussing if truly roleblocked or fake. The most redeeming thing about ASC is that he roleclaimed doc, but otherwise it's hard to buy the claim because there aren't imo that many town vibes coming from him, at least to me.

[Skellen]

As I implied I like SR's case on chennis. Not sure if urap would be a likely partner, just went through his ISO to see how connected these two are so far.

Basically there are only two notable things imo. The most important is urap's GW vote. I think I got the votecount right back then, but after the claim the only other notable wagon was chennis with Zeito's and ASC's votes. Normally there would have been a high chance that he becomes the alternate lynch wagon, although SR and teacher were moving on GW due to the GW/ASC theory. urap's vote was the decisive vote that put GW into the lead with 3 votes before chennis. This is so far the only real connection that I see between urap and chennis on Day 1, however the vote itself is consistent with urap's play given the fact that it was him who came up with the ASC/GW theory. Ah well, the guttownread on chennis is there too, but that doesn't have to mean that much.

The other point that I found noteworthy was that urap put chennis into the box for investigative's targets. If we assume town!ASC then scum!urap would know that we are in column A and thus there is a possibility of a Cop/Neapolitan setup. Wouldn't it be a bit risky putting his partner into a pool of investigative's targets with only three other people?

[Skellen]

I’m pretty sure I was the one suggesting chennis should be checked, not urap. Can you link the post?

Indeed, you did it first. He did these target pools however later for investigative and protective roles in #338.

[Skellen]

Hm, alright, thought the order didn't matter as he didn't even put himself at first place in the protective pool.

[Skellen]

Why even using an alt? You are here for just like a month.

[Skellen]

Weren't you throwing shade at Skellen, like, a couple of posts before this?

No, he didn't.

Other than myself I don't see this as pushing an easy mislynch - certainly URAP is not one.

Can you explain where your change of mind regarding urap is coming from? In #490 you lean on urap being town that pushes scum, than after he voted you you changed your stance on him. I take it is for him framing ASC as you said in #503 (who you still don't mind lynching in lylo?) and that he pushed the GW lynch. But the latter was a known fact before you were leaning town on him. And you reversed the framing ASC argument again in #505 with saying he isn't framing ASC, which seemingly concludes in scum team urap/ASC? I don't get it, no matter what concerning ASC, urap is scum?

[Skellen]

Saying that, does anybody have a way I can get access to a lot of their games? Navigating a forums website is constantly a last resort for me.

Just look into his profile and look into the topics he posted in, there you should find all games he was in. If you want to see scum!urap as replacing late into Day 1 and attempting the massclaim at Day 2 too I can recommend Newbie 1916 as I witnessed that first hand. Don't know his town games, but I think he listed all his Newbie games in #342.

[Skellen]

Just caught up with 6 pages. This game is easily the worst in terms of getting screwed by timezones. I am just grateful that it is weekend that I can kind of keep up with you guys. Anyway...

Can you explain where your change of mind regarding urap is coming from? In #490 you lean on urap being town that pushes scum, than after he voted you you changed your stance on him. I take it is for him framing ASC as you said in #503 (who you still don't mind lynching in lylo?) and that he pushed the GW lynch. But the latter was a known fact before you were leaning town on him. And you reversed the framing ASC argument again in #505 with saying he isn't framing ASC, which seemingly concludes in scum team urap/ASC? I don't get it, no matter what concerning ASC, urap is scum?

URAP not being an easy mislynch implies

if he's town,

he isn't easy to mislynch for scum

If he's scum, not mislynch

Anyway, I don't think we should lynch URAP today at any case.

UNVOTE:

I regret that I seemingly quoted the wrong post, you basically dodged my question.

You lean on town!urap first, then you say scum would try to frame ASC what urap did. Two posts later you said urap wasn't trying to frame ASC and implies urap is scum with ASC. And now in this post you back off from urap just like that. Like... what the hell?

[Skellen]

skellen, what do you get out of my post on him earlier? Interested to hear when you get back to the thread

To be frank I am not really that convinced by it. I am pretty careful about confidence in posts/opinions is that AI since my first game here where Enter went with absolute certainty into a death tunnel through all nine rings of hell and turned out as town. SR strikes me just as someone who is pretty confident in his reads, even although he changes them quickly with his erratic nature. Which is consistent regarding SR is that he seems to quick with "justifying" his playstyle/mentality, but tbh I would also be upset by that. I don't know, it's hard for me to follow the reasoning here to justify the turn from strongest townread to scum (meanwhile in a forced 1v1).

[Skellen]

swap out SR for chenn in my poe beceause chenn was always a poe read anyway, he's mislynch bait always as town, and SR's push on him basically spews him town.

VOTE: SR

also acceptable lynch today is ASC because he's scum

So you think scum reading was busing his partner D1? Cause he sure looked willing for an ASC lynch before the claim.

It's not an unlikely bus though. Remember, as you pointed out yourself, that he switches his vote to GW temporarily and then voted AS up to L-1 after urap's vote. Then came the infamous reads list and the claim, then after the claim SR was the first to switch his vote to GW. As long as SR was there, they could have been in control of the situation. It's one of the many points why I am paranoid about ASC's claim as he and SR have several points that connect them each other that makes me wary of a combination ASC/SR.

[Skellen]

the teacher kill, if it indicates anything at all, is indicative of you and asc being scum

How does the teacher kill indicate that? I take it that teacher doubted ASC's claim, but he wasn't alone in that if I remember correctly. About SR I guess you mean teacher's comment about the crumbing? Did anyone figured out what teacher meant with that? I didn't found anything in SR's ISO although I must admit that it is quite stressful to dig through all these posts for such subtle hints.

[Skellen]

urap, is your change of read about SR solely based on this meta issue? Or are there also any other indications ingame by his play here?

Might be that you wrote something about that in the last few pages, but catching up and reading through all this meta stuff makes me dizzy. I am still jumping from one page to the other.

[Skellen]

Skellen, please vote chenis

I am going to explain where I am standing right now later. Need to read some stuff yet.

Hold up, other than my early rvs post defence on ASC, nothing connects us lmao.

The point that bothers me the most about you/ASC is that you put him into your townblock from the beginning through almost the whole first day. Despite your attitude towards lurkers. That attitude of yours is legit. But ASC contributed almost nothing of value to the game on Day 1 and yet you kept him dearly in your townblock until teacher started the compromise lynch push on ASC, which got ultimately defused by the claim.

[Skellen]

I still don’t know what teacher meant. I even asked him about it, but I didn’t get to hear a response. Oh well. Skellen, check my ISO out, there’s a post on chennisden scum case. Read it and let me know what you think.

i understood teacher's post that he implied that you might have crumbed a PR and thus might have feinted a possible fakeclaim considering we just had a Doctor claim and an incoming Jailkeeper flip back then. I didn't found anything however when I went through your ISO in the night, which is why I am asking urap.

You know my opinion on your chennis case as I have already stated it.

[Skellen]

Alright, alright... so this is where I am right now.

As things are I would like to lynch among chennis or ASC today. Both are for me at the moment the pink elephants in the middle of the room if it comes to any realistic scum constellations in two scumblocks.

chennis is acting scummy as hell and I am not fond of excuses like "he is always acting scummy, so what". SR pointed that out well in his case against chennis. What also bothers me a lot about chennis is how his role during Day 2 has been pretty ambiguous so far. Like with urap: First urap is town for pushing scum, then he is scum for looking at ASC then he backs off from urap for no reason and then he seems to construct a urap/SR scumteam, which doesn't really make any sense, but despite having voted urap before he turns against SR together with urap. This whole play looks to me contradictorily and I don't like it.

ASC is on the other hand a damn shady Doctor. Even on Day 2 there wasn't much useful from his slot. He exists. It's of course difficult without CC, but he isn't doing a good job on making it easier to believe him.

Anyway I have already pointed out I doubt a scumteam chennis/ASC as ASC's vote on the first day wouldn't have been smart considering that after the claim a new wagon was necessary and chennis was the most realistic lynch option at first glance with two votes before the GW wagon started.

As I see it in chennis's case the most realistic scumteams are either with urap or Persivul. urap and chennis went against each other early Day 2, but it was rather inconsequent with no further pursuing by urap and he backed off from chennis after a short time, so this doesn't mean much to me. chennis and Persivul haven't really interacted in any conflicting manner so far, but it's noteworthy that Persivul was pushing more into urap's direction from chennis away today. I thought his reasons for suspecting urap more were legit though. Which is why I don't believe in a urap/Persivul scumteam, I doubt they would distance themselves when SR is clashing with urap and there might be others to follow against urap like chennis.

The other scumblock contains ASC, SR and Persivul. I already pointed out what bugged me with ASC/SR as he dragged ASC through most of the first day in his townblock along despite not much contribution by ASC. He turned against ASC in the compromise lynch when it became apparent that the momentum might turn against ASC, so I am rather careful with interpreting the vote. Persivul is here more just because of PoE, there aren't any meaningful interactions nor solid evidence that might indicate much. I also think a scumteam Persivul/SR is pretty unlikely as Persivul pushed SR intensely towards the end of Day 1 with GW when no other promising wagon was in sight and only backed off when teacher started his compromise wagon.

Thus most threads run together at chennis and ASC imo (Persivul maybe too, but he is the least suspicious person in both blocks imo). As both are scummy enough I see a good chance to hit the mark here.

I am inclined to lynch chennis today. If he flips red, then the course of action should be clear (same in ASC's case). Should he flip green it's probably less likely that urap is a bad guy and I would rather look at ASC/SR. Also it would probably clear Persivul more than lynching ASC would do as the connection Persivul/chennis is stronger than with ASC (or better: more existent). Although that connection isn't that strong either to be fair.

[Skellen]

That said, all these thoughts are based on straight forward assumptions. If there are some gambits at play this will look far more complicated I think.

[Skellen]

Therefore it is chennis.

VOTE: chennisden

That's L-1.

[Skellen]

Actually UNVOTE: chennisden

I am going to sleep now and don't want to wake up looking in a locked thread, in case someone couldn't keep it in his pants again.

I want to hear more from Zeito and Persivul.

@urap:
I will look at it tomorrow, too sleepy right now.

[Skellen]

some of it was bluster because i defend my town reads

and yes there was some on play - thought processes and being active when the game was at a lull iirc - but the thought processes fit in my new understanding of his scum game, and the activity is probably personality indicative

and im not really concerned about building a coherent progression on any of my reads as town, ever. I'm concerned with correctly lynching scum

Let me know if you want something more specific[/quote]

Mh, so basically your reason for originally townreading his play changed because of meta reasons.

Have to say though that I don't like his posts today. They are really forceful and exaggerated, at this point this is quite a tunnel. If we are dealing with scum!SR here, what would be the gain of this tunnel? I take it he would like to push into lylo, but in case of mislynch he wouldn't look well the next day then and is a very likely lynch target.

[Skellen]

My green flip doesn't exactly clear URAP either.

On the other hand if scum flips red he will clear me/URAP

I don't see urap being scum with anyone else though. You seem to indicate urap/SR in #776, which doesn't make much sense considering their forced 1v1 that wouldn't even have been necessary if SvS.

[Skellen]

URAP + TheASC was a scumteam I saw from catching up on this - URAP has scumread ASC but pushed the other lynch hard as hell, seemingly hoping to keep him alive for another, get him lynched the next day, bus for towncred, and win in the next lylo. It seems like a decent scum strategy. URAP subbed in and immediately called ASC scum, got the other person lynched. They then made a new partner for TheASC... and has tried to lynch the other person.

chennisden is a viable option for a lynch, I guess. I don't really agree with the chennis / URAP scumteam. chennis seemed to lead a scumread on URAP being pretty uncertain on them and having reasoning to do so.

1. I disagree about ASC/urap. urap gave ASC heat right from his first post when he entered the game and regretted to not have lynched through the claim (as I see he even explained it now). Instead of letting the claim to be he continued to push into ASC's direction right at the beginning of Day 2 too and is obviously willing to lynch him if nothing better comes up. I don't know, I would think scum!urap would rather let this whole affair die down than keeping it into town's mind and don't possibly bus his partner when there are other realistic lynch options.

2. About chennis/urap, that's actually the problem. They barked at each other, but ultimately haven't really bitten each other (yes, I know they voted each other shortly). chennis scumread urap and now put urap with SR together as a scumteam, but votes SR together with urap. Both voting together despite their interactions looks weird, mostly from chennis' side.

That said, I am fine with lynching ASC. Would still prefer chennis though as his flip would shed more light on urap and Persivul while in ASC's case the only really meaningful connection is SR.

[Skellen]

VOTE: TheASC

L-1

[Skellen]

o.o
These twilights.

Neat, glad we resolved this whole ASC fakeclaim affair smoothly and it seems to turn out as a red flip.

My initial thoughts are the same as urap's concerning SR and Zeito. Still doubt chennis and ASC are a team though. Uncertain about Persivul as he was originally my number two after SR, but his role in the ASC lynch suggests rather town than scum at first glance. Have however yet to reread the whole game with the knowledge of scum!ASC in mind.

[Skellen]

This banter is ridiculous.

It strikes me as odd that the urap nk is associated with Zeito when imo the most obvious fact of the nk is that a SR lynch just lost it's majority. Pre-Night 2 or better in last twilight there were three people with intent to vote SR: urap, me and chennis (I am not so sure judging by his weird post #1002 though), so basically three votes, enough for a lynch today. The most articulate of those died and now immediately this forceful push by SR in Zeito's direction (and Persivul for some reason now).

[Skellen]

swap out SR for chenn in my poe beceause chenn was always a poe read anyway, he's mislynch bait always as town, and SR's push on him basically spews him town.

VOTE: SR

also acceptable lynch today is ASC because he's scum

So you think scum reading was busing his partner D1? Cause he sure looked willing for an ASC lynch before the claim.

I know this wasn't to me but I think ASC doc might be legit

This was a post that stuck to the back of my mind after ASC's flip. That post was back then when SR was leading with two votes and ASC wasn't really a topic concerning the lynch. For what reasons did you thought back then that ASC's doc claim might have been legit?

[Skellen]

@Skellen, @chennis, excuse me if you’ve already posted about this, but if you haven’t, what are your thoughts on Persovul right now?

I saw Persivul for most of the game rather as town and would still consider him as town. I particularly liked his play on Day 2 when he was facing urap when he called him out for his drastic reads change on SR and pointed inconsistencies out and I could relate to that. His lolhammer on GW wasn't good, but imo most hammers aren't that AI as people want to make them imo. Also he was part of the spontaneous ASC wagon that changed ASC's situation for the worse pretty suddenly. Sure, it could have been possible that he bussed considering that with you (at least I - and urap probably too - thought you would vote too since you suggested it kind of), urap and me, three people have signalized their willingness to lynch ASC alternatively, but I don't know if he would have done it so fast. I mean if he would have waited a bit the wagon would have stagnated at two votes. So his role in the lynch suggests to me rather town than scum.

Counterquestion: What makes you think that Persivul is scum? (question is addressed at @SR too)

[Skellen]

@Zeito:

I dashed through your ISO and I think you didn't really answered this or I might have overlooked it. But while I wrote about it: Why haven't you hammered ASC? As I said in my former post, I interpreted your post #826 like an attempt to rally people for a ASC wagon as there were enough suspecting him.

[Skellen]

ding dong your opinion is wrong

?

[Skellen]

So I have been awake for 22 hours now and I am close to hit the keyboard with my head. So I will interrupt here for today.

I will bring the points that worry me about SR on the table tomorrow. @Persivul: I see that you townread him mostly for meta reasons (can't argue with that), but what specific reasons make him by ingame-play more town in your eyes? (I think I have the Day 1 vote and his hammer statement in the back of my mind here)

[Skellen]

So regarding SR this is what is stressing me. Sorry for the wall.

I know it's mostly Day 1 stuff, but I can't get it out of my mind. It's mostly his acting towards ASC and wording/tone. One of the first things he did when he replaced into the game was defending ASC when he was under heat with being at early L-2. Then he started his townblocks and kept ASC for the most part of Day 1 in there despite him being so wary of lurkers and the lack of any contributions by ASC. Even later when teacher asked him about it, shortly before the compromise ASC wagon, he still defended his stance on ASC, even explains it further in detail when teacher suggested the ASC lynch and made the first vote and even mocked Persivul's vote (a joke directed at GW though) when Persivul voted ASC too.

One page later in #285 he turns against ASC and votes him and looks at ASC more critically because he just posts here and there and didn't gave any reads, although earlier he was pretty fine with ASC's newest posts in #231 and said that nothing would have suggested scum. I am willing to give the benefit of doubt for this point though, if it was mostly because of the lack of reads, because that would be a legit point. Still this turn around looked awkward to me.

What also bothered me at Day 1 were statements like "if ASC is scum he is doing a good job looking town" and "if she's new and she made me town read her with the confidence I am right now, she's doing a really good job as a scum player.", which looked to me now knowing about ASC's role like a possible set-up for justifying the defence for ASC before. It also stands out as SR later said that he would be surprised if ASC flips town as the wagon looked townie to him. Maybe this might be how fast he changes his reads/mind, but during the reread it looked odd.

What I didn't really got what his temporal vote on GW in #327 after urap replaced in. I mean, it's comprehensible to vote GW if you are believing urap's ASC/GW theory which sounded pretty good at this point. But if you want to lynch among ASC and GW and think that one of them is 100% scum, why abandoning the one who already had three votes while GW had none? Especially because it was already close to the deadline if I remember correctly. I know this was only for a short time until urap voted ASC back to L-2, which is when SR returned his vote to the ASC wagon, but I really want to clarify this. Why was the lynch order GW > ASC when the wagon on ASC was already rolling?

On Day 2 he continued defending ASC, however just once along the way while interacting with urap as he disliked urap's suspicion on ASC. Just noticed while rereading that SR was the only other person besides chennis who actually said that ASC's doc claim is legit. So the same applies here as for chennis: what made you think that ASC's doc claim might have been legit? I get it that you were careful because PR claim, that's a given, but ASC's play at Day 2 simply gave nothing away that indicated a town agenda, which was mainly for me the reason to remain sceptical about his claim.

The urap kill just adds up at this point, although I take the interpretation of the kill with a grain of salt. His push against Zeito looks consistent, but I don't like the turn against Persivul. Mostly because at Day 2 after the ASC lynch was as good as through he said that Persivul would be along with urap and me conftown. And then he turns against Persivul because of a bagatelle like him temporarily ragevoting SR. I mean you can call it childish by Persivul's part, but the vote didn't even lasted long and Persivul's explanation makes sense given some of his interactions this game.

[Skellen]

As for the meta part regarding Sr I have settled that it plays a minor role for me as it is now. I mean meanwhile urap said that SR is town due to meta, then urap said SR is scum due to meta, just so that Persivul now too says SR is town due to meta (for most part I guess). If Persivul now at some point scumreads SR due to meta the meta argumentation will officially be dead to me.

Anyway, since I invested a wall into it: VOTE: scum reading

[Skellen]

You and Zeito are the weirdest players of all time. What is your read on me? In the same post you give reasoning for town!me and then scum!me , you’re just pointing out information without a conclusion based on analysis.

Couldn't agree more. chennis is driving me nuts with these posts. Everytime when I want to settle on him as town he writes such weird posts where I feel I have to rethink it twice.

[Skellen]

Despite that I remain at my stance regarding chennis, I keep him on the town side due to ASC's votes.

Zeito has to step up his game. Ever since the beginning of Day 3, no even already since the ASC lynch was set in stone, he just acted snarky and defensive. Especially because Persivul's case in #1003 looks pretty solid and spot on.

[Skellen]

Both of you are so wrong for the simple reason I was the one that hammered ASC and that pushed her wagon with urap. If you read me ISO, you’d see I’ve also said “My gut is saying that ASC is town, but you don’t play this game on guts” and was pushing the ASC wagon.

As Persivul said, I have pushed ASC hardcore, up to the point where he claimed doctor, so I unvoted and cooled down, cuz I’m not insane to lynch a doc claim on day one.

Skellen, please unvote and let me address your concerns before one of Zeito and Persivul starts to doubt my alignment and they’ll hammer.

The hammer on ASC is for me pretty NAI similar as Persivul's lolhammer on GW. For me it needs a certain context so that a hammer is particularly meaningful. It was just the inevitable after chennis decided to do nothing and Zeito chickened out and with no counterwagon in sight.

Well, pushing "hardcore". The lion's share of the late Day 1 push on ASC was done by urap when he replaced in and instantly came up with the ASC/GW theory and the push got a different dynamic then (and teacher started the whole thing to begin with). Not saying you didn't pushed ASC, it's the quick turn around that throws me off here.

Persivul's stance is crystal clear and we need three votes for a hammer today. There is no need for worrying right now.

[Skellen]

What do you mean? I’ve switched my vote to GW and then to ASC right in the next post. Reasoning being I still doubted the ASC slot as I’m willing to give newbies the benefit of the doubt, and when she claimed doc, she has confirmed my beliefs (momentarily)

Yes, that's exactly what made me wonder. If I have a scumteam in mind and one of them is already at L-2 with my vote and most likely on his way to get lynched I would leave my vote where it is and not push for the other who has zero votes. My initial thought was that it kind of looked like an attempt to push away from the ASC wagon for GW until urap went for ASC instead of GW. You made this lynch order GW > ASC > Zeito. However I overlooked in #344 that your motivation for that was to go for GW first because he was a more experienced player. Looks still a little bit strange to me, but it fits with your answer. Fair enough.

[Skellen]

mind telling us your thought process on why teacher was a good kill? Just because of his post where he accused you?

PM me after the game and I'd be happy to.

Again, either scum reading is town, or ASC is very good at distancing, despite being very bad as scum otherwise.

That's actually a very good point you raise here. I was careful with the whole twilight conversation between ASC and SR because it bewildered me that ASC apparently lurked for the whole time here doing nothing just to spam the thread when he was hammered. I agree that this kind of distancing doesn't seem to be within ASC's scum range given his play otherwise, I could imagine that it could be in SR's scum range though.

Going to give that exchange a reread.

[Skellen]

Both of you are so wrong for the simple reason I was the one that hammered ASC and that pushed her wagon with urap. If you read me ISO, you’d see I’ve also said “My gut is saying that ASC is town, but you don’t play this game on guts” and was pushing the ASC wagon.

As Persivul said, I have pushed ASC hardcore, up to the point where he claimed doctor, so I unvoted and cooled down, cuz I’m not insane to lynch a doc claim on day one.

Skellen, please unvote and let me address your concerns before one of Zeito and Persivul starts to doubt my alignment and they’ll hammer.

The hammer on ASC is for me pretty NAI similar as Persivul's lolhammer on GW. For me it needs a certain context so that a hammer is particularly meaningful. It was just the inevitable after chennis decided to do nothing and Zeito chickened out and with no counterwagon in sight.

Well, pushing "hardcore". The lion's share of the late Day 1 push on ASC was done by urap when he replaced in and instantly came up with the ASC/GW theory and the push got a different dynamic then (and teacher started the whole thing to begin with). Not saying you didn't pushed ASC, it's the quick turn around that throws me off here.

Persivul's stance is crystal clear and we need three votes for a hammer today. There is no need for worrying right now.

It does have a context though? I’ve wanted ASC lynched before urap even replaced, the only thing that changed my mind was her claim, but when people voted her, especially that fast and all of my townreads were there, I didn’t have a reason not to hammer.

I am not questioning your reason for the hammer. I just don't make such a big deal out of it as you disliked urap's approach against ASC at first and your first initial reaction to the Day 2 wagon was to not hammer it. Not that the latter was wrong either. What I mean with context here is that a hammer tells me more in a situation with 2 wagons that are close to each other as in a situation as we had at Day 2 where it was just one real wagon.

[Skellen]

I am not questioning your reason for the hammer. I just don't make such a big deal out of it as you disliked urap's approach against ASC at first

At first? You mean when we pushed ASC day one?

Nah, on Day 2 around #573. Mostly setup discussion related If I got it right.

[Skellen]

Hmm, have to rethink one or two things...

UNVOTE:

The exchange ASC-SR was a lot of fluff where I would have hoped to find more indicative stuff. But here and there I can see what Persivul implies. Right now leaning through PoE more towards Zeito than SR. Will wait till tomorrow in case Zeito has anything interesting to say before dropping my vote for good.

[Skellen]

For crying out loud SR, sit down and eat a snickers. Don't make me regret unvoting you when I have just settled on giving you the edge over Zeito. This self-voting shit is exactly such a move scum was talking about in my first game, just that you took it one step further and actually did it. I don't like that.

Anyway, nothing much happened as it seems. I think Persivul nailed it with Zeito's chennis vote on Day 1 and when I look at Zeito's snarky and defensive behaviour (which is rather destructive at this state of the game) ever since ASC's lynch was a done deal (and the hesistance to hammer his scumread) look to me like the acting of caught scum, I am fine with lynching him today.

VOTE: Zeito

L-1

[Skellen]

Ugh, I feel like Persivul in this.

The chennis kill is not what I was expecting. Thinking this through though, I think I can make some sense out of it. chennis was townread by me and Persivul for the votes he got by ASC late Day 1 and during Day 2. Considering only one of us two could have been killed it would have been unlikely that one surviving would turn against chennis (can't speak for Persivul here though, feel free to correct).

My PoE from last day results in SR fo the lynch today, which both my head and guts tell me too at the moment. Then again scum should have known this too. Blergh, and again through the thread rereading both of you.

[Skellen]

This is hard, because the scum!SR option is the one that makes the most sense and is the easiest answer. But I it fits too well with ASC and as Persivul says the Nk's strongly imply SR too.

I townread Persivul for most of the game despite the GW hammer and the Zeito lynch, which kight be the only real dents (though the former less). What seals it for me is Persivul's setup slip on early Day 2. Scum pulled off the fakeclaim on Day 1 to save ASC and the first thing that Persivul does on Day 2 is stepping into the thread trying to sell us a wrong setup until he got called out from urap. Scum would have thought properly about the setup, I don't think that was faked (it wouldn't even have served some purpose).

I settle on town!Persivul, SR it is for me.

VOTE: scum reading

[Skellen]

<3

[Skellen]

Basically I wrote everything for nothing, should have just waited some more minutes.

[Skellen]

<---- Scum

[Skellen]

gg guys.

Never ever scum again please, I was so freaking nervous the whole game as this was a strong town line-up (for me at least) and then SR and urap replaced in while ASC got already caught. Thank god lylo didn't lasted long and we resolved this right now.