Newbie 1979 | Good Jams | (Game Over)

[insomnia]

Town

VOTE: Poyzin

[insomnia]

My avatar is the Townie Enchantress, she has bestowed upon the town the ultimate form of scum hunting. May your scum reads be scum and your town reads be town. If doubt is sowed within your reads, ask the Enchantress for her opinion, and she’ll hopefully aid you on the right way, as she’s old and experienced.

[insomnia]

Enchantress senses you don’t have any reads yet, but that’s just fine, since just the Enchantress checked in. She sees through your attempt at gaining a reaction from the Enchantress, but she is oozing towniness.

[insomnia]

You can ask questions if you so desire, however, there’s not really much to go on. I’ll start it out by saying I feel like your RVS vote is weird and was thought too much about, as if you wanted to create a good image. The Enchantress has noticed this try hardy intro post and will take it into account when looking at your posts from now on.

What questions did you want to ask, though?

[insomnia]

You wouldn’t. I would. And I have.

Enchantress has plenty of success with this. The intro post a person is coming up with can be really telling as to what they have in mind. Poyzin wanted to make a strong appearance and be liked by people. He worked on his post, you can tell. It wasn’t something goofy that villagers usually post.

[insomnia]

How much experience in terms of months played, not games?

[insomnia]

You wouldn’t. I would. And I have.

Enchantress has plenty of success with this. The intro post a person is coming up with can be really telling as to what they have in mind. Poyzin wanted to make a strong appearance and be liked by people. He worked on his post, you can tell. It wasn’t something goofy that villagers usually post.

I understand the importance of well-written replies, and I don’t believe that wanting to make a good first impression is something that necessarily means someone is aligned one way or another.

So you agree that you’ve worked on this post, and you’re saying you’re thinking about each of your posts like that as any alignment? Or you just don’t think it is generally AI?

[insomnia]

Enchantress likes dsjstr's probing thus far.

She also says that she's willing to accept that if Poyzin is telling the truth, then he'll be hard to found as town because his posts go through a pre-filter, which would come off as scummy to whoever's tone reading.

In fact, she says we should probably probe into Blatant Scum for town reading Poyzin's entrance, because I think that might be a TMI read. Poyzin's post should've felt weird to most towns. It didn't to Blatant Scum, he actually read it fairly townie.

I like the dude that liked my questioning. IMASPY dude.

VOTE: Blatant Scum

This is L-2

. Proceed carefully.

Town core of djstr - IMASPY - me - luca blight

who next

[insomnia]

djstr and luca aren't team mates.

[insomnia]

which is why I don’t see an issue about the post in question

So what opinion do you have of me for attacking you on something that you find completely normal?

[insomnia]

ctually read it fairly towni

I agree with most of this post aside from luca being inno.

Actually yeah you're right, I'm pushing reads for no reason. We have time.

[insomnia]

I was liking daw's intro but his wall makes me shake my previous town lean on him. I think he TMI'd half the playerlist with that post, including me. I think his point about me distinguishing players to look for agendas is a TMI read. I just asked Poyzin a question about his experience because he mentioned he was not new. I was trying to evaluate how to read him based on his experience. I think this is adding unnecessary analysis with tons of logic leaps to conclude a town read on me. He's also attempting to sow doubt in my read because ima was sheeping me. I'm aware he did. I wasn't oblivious to this, but he seems too chill about it and I don't think it's agenda-y. Therefore, I didn't think it needed to be addressed, as I don't see any agenda in that yet. If he'll disagree with something, he'll say so. He probably knows he's gonna have to produce content of his own and most likely will anyway. He's not new.

He's posturing for a set up on either Blatant or Poyzin from that wall. He also said Poyzin seemed innocent for him at first, but then he's accusing Blatant for accepting Poyzin as town, which is illogical and reads as a contrived read to set the pace at a Blatant - Poyzin brawl on day one. That's his intention. It reflects this from "I'd like to see more interaction from them" specifically.

His read on Luca also doesn't make sense, if it was helpful for you, why doesn't it contribute in some way?

VOTE: dawoodle

In all honesty, if this is mafia, I'd be 90% sure that Blatant and Poyzin are both town cleared. So is Ima.

[insomnia]

*sorry for stealing pagetop, didn't think you were here lol*

[insomnia]

Please don’t look at my games, I’ve changed. I was a toxic prick back then, now I am truly reformed. I think digging meta reads won’t help you, mainly because I don’t have the same energy as town that I had before. Meaning I probably won’t lash out on you calling you names and stuff because you scum read me or whatever.


Dawoodle are you seriously suggesting that because you laid your thoughts in the thread (playing the game) I should give you a town pass?

[insomnia]

Actually more willing to point out that I’ll probably start getting scum read for that specific reason, my past meta and current meta. It’s gonna take a few games to wipe that meta out before I can use this as a reasoning for defending myself.

In general, I’d advice to just let me alive. I’ve also improved by a bit (imo) since the last time I played so if I get to live anywhere past Night 3 then you guys can probably suspect me. I’d encourage you to push other people though.

I don’t think you should have any reasoning for suspecting me this early, do you find anything I said to be agenda driven or disingenuous? Do you disagree with my analysis on his wall post? I think I can break it down further but if you didn’t get the crux of it then diving deeper in it will probably make it even more confusing. If you want clarification on my posts, just ask me by the way. I have issues with expressing my thoughts in a convincing and coherent way as it is, so don’t be afraid.

[insomnia]

Blatant - Has not given much to go off of, but did seem to immediately accept Poyzin as town rather than taking it as a post to view future responses through. I would like to see more interaction from them though.

I would like to see the post where I am claiming that Pyzin is town.

Exactly what I’m trying to convey. He has the information that we’re town, so he looks for things that can look compelling for clearing us and therefore showing he has thoughtful reads, but it just proves that he has TMI on us because there’s nothing that suggests a person’s intent with a post like “How many months have you been playing mafia for?”

The progression on a read is basically non-existent and that reads list is probably made only to give a pretext for setting up the playground for Blatant and Pyzin to play in. It would be weird only to say “These 2 are probably scum and should confront more”.

I am confident about this read on daw because that’s exactly how I play as scum.

I think that whole wall post’s intention was to prepare in advance for potential wagons on Blatant and Pyzin. The other reads are very carelessly given or are mainly null reads.

[insomnia]

Looks scummy but town do scummy things anyway. He couldn’t even hammer because there’s not enough votes on anyone.

Right now I’m focused on daw though, he definitely has faulty assumptions that can be made only if he has our roles. If he’s town then he’s doing reads for no reason and is trying to match things already supposing that we’re town, which is bad.

But right now I’m tempted to say he’s probably scum. A town wouldn’t assume stuff from posts, they want concrete evidence.

[insomnia]

That's L-2.

[insomnia]

So did you mean to say you do this in all your newbie scum games?

Where did he say he does that post only as town?

[insomnia]

Billy’s entrance is not good. Meh.

Billy - daw would be too simple though..

I still think daw is scum and should be pushed, for the record.

I probably won’t post anything until I either change my read on daw or billy starts doing townie stuff. Or daw.

[insomnia]

That didn’t look like a joke, Billy. You’re on dawoodle’s counterwagon.

Why are you RVSing at this stage as a replacement?

[insomnia]

I made a wall on him and I agree with that read.

I had an opening post, it's a half serious vote and you're shading me for it?

Do you seriously think that I am intentionally posting a certain opening only in newbie games where I am scum?

Actually given that your meta seems to be to post fairly scummy stuff, your answer here actually makes me think my initial post wasnt just a joke. . .

Iconeum, considering the current wagon formation, do you think this progression is town / scum?

[insomnia]

Yeah, it’s a justification for maintaining his vote on Blatant. Mainly because he’s the counterwagon to Dawoodle.

The progression was really sudden and reeks of scum agenda.

That’s why I said Billy and dawoodle would be too easy but idk.

Not necessarily a perspective slip, it’s a means of justificating his vote on Blatant.

The initial vote on him he said was rvs even though he had a reason to accuse him. We proved him wrong, but he has to keep his vote there.

[insomnia]

The reaction someone has on your post doesn’t change it’s seriousness for yourself.

[insomnia]

Vote dawoodle first tho, he’s gonna be at L-1

[insomnia]

Actually, I'm not pushing another angle. You are confusing me with Iconeum. I never said your vote was awkward. I implied it was pre-meditated.

Billy, how do I discern about what you actually mean to be an RVS vote and a serious vote? You accused him of posting something that's more likely to come from scum him, but it's a half-serious vote? I read it as an accusation, not a joke.

You post what your thoughts are. Just because someone reacts weirdly to them, it doesn't change your initial thought. You came in with the intent of RVSing, but you did accuse BS of being scum for something serious. BS will see that as an accusation, just like I have. How does the fact he reacted to your accusation in your eyes change the intent you had with posting that?

You can't possibly say because someone reacted to your post, your post now is serious and not a joke anymore. You're looking for a reason to make your vote actually serious, while saying it was a joke. That reeks of an agenda.

[insomnia]

You are confusing me with Iconeum.

Oh btw, is this because you know we're both town so it doesn't matter who's who?

[insomnia]

No, town progression would be "wow, you reacted like a god damn scum to my joke post"

Billy's progression was "Oh you reacted to it so it must've had another level of seriousness than I intended it to" which makes no sense...

The difference here is that the accusation is based on his reaction to your joke vote, what you've done was to change YOUR POST'S INTENTION / seriousness based on his reaction. Which reads more as you trying to justify maintaining your vote than you actually scum reading him for reacting weirdly to what you perceived as an obvious joke.

[insomnia]

Don’t take this as an invitation to argue, I don’t usually talk with my scum reads because it gives the impression that it’s a T/T argument just because there’s a 3 page war that people don’t want to read.

I think you’re scum and I have nothing to address. I said that if you play the game and you start becoming townier, I’d notify people that I changed my mind / I’d just push someone else.

As of yet, nothing that you’ve done was extraordinarily townie.

If I feel there’s something to comment on, I will.

[insomnia]

Billy why are you town reading dawoodle again?

[insomnia]

I'm a he by the way, but I get it you would confuse it because of the enchantress thing lmfao, so no offence taken

That's my cat in the picture by the way

============================

but insomnia seems like a better player than to make a questionable read like that.

Well, let's lynch you and see if I'm a better player

Luca and djstr aren't scum because djstr moved his vote in an awkward manner to Luca even though he already voted and Luca reacting to it was like shining a spot light on your partner, if he was his partner. The question was fairly good and I also noted the awkward vote switch, I actually was gonna push on it, but I waited. And Luca coming in the thread and not ignoring him and going straight at him reads as non S/S interaction.

Not sure why I had to explain it or why it's relevant given the game state. This is a post-flip read anyway that I probably won't even remember.

[insomnia]

I reckon Luca would've focused elsewhere or reacted differently to that vote.

[insomnia]

Why does my read on them matter and why are you questioning your town read?

Probe into your scum reads. I thought I was town for you. So why waste your time on me?

[insomnia]

Because you not engaging with me here when I flip town makes me useless in sorting

what

[insomnia]

@Insom - why was it more important to get Dawoodle to L-1 than it was for Icon to vote his top scumread.

so my scum partner can hammer him without notice

[insomnia]

but insomnia seems like a better player than to make a questionable read like that

So am I right on you and Billy or where's this coming from?

[insomnia]

People actually say I'm quite trash when I tunnel them and they're town, but you're not.

[insomnia]

You're so confident in a page 5 read that you're not going to engage me?

More that if I am wrong and I engage with you, I will death tunnel. If I don't talk to you and you interact in a townie way with other people, I can change my mind.

[insomnia]

So who are the scum for you, dawoodle?

[insomnia]

Enchantress how do you feel about dsjstr still using your reads from 200 post ago. Do you have any new reads? Are you still 99% dawoodle is mafia?

Yes.

Idc if djstr is using my reads, he’s bleeding town imo

[insomnia]

He’s actually gonna get locked if dawoodle flips scum so I don’t want to focus that

I think your attention should be on the two wagons. Dawoodle has done nothing but ask me questions, his town read, and didn’t sort any of the other people.

Town look for scum, not town.

If he says otherwise, refer back to his wall where he gave the equivalent of 3 scum reads in proportion to 2 town reads.

[insomnia]

Or actually give me a sec, I’ll properly evaluate people.

[insomnia]

Billy why are you town reading dawoodle again?

Where did I say I was town-reading Dawoodle?

I missed this answer and I was looking for it.

You kept asking people why we are scum reading dawoodle and you didn't actually care for the answer. You're either defending him or looking for an opportunity to push him. Either way, asking about why someone votes for X player implies that you don't find a reason to vote there. So, what's the reasoning? Why is he town?

[insomnia]

Billy are scum

Expound?

[insomnia]

Ok, I read your post, so no need to do that anymore.

I am willing to re-evaluate on dawoodle, let him live for another day. I do intend to move to either Billy or djstr now, surprisingly.

I still think that dawoodle's pretty scum, virtue of that terrible wall and his questions that aren't being followed through. This guy either has to start speaking more in the thread or he's gonna get lynched at some point, be it either by me or the town. Unless djstr is scum which would make dawoodle look really townie.

Dawoodle is no rookie, as he mentioned, he does have some IRL experience. I guess I liked his #174 and that was the pivotal moment for my switch in read, followed by ima's thought process. But, I do still have some form of reluctance from switching, maybe because it sucks being wrong, but also because his questions match NOTHING with his reads. He can ask the weirdest questions to iam and billy, and then post reasons for why he scum reads Luca (this was just an example). From my personal PoV (because I've caught people before based on this tell alone, which is not really a tell, but whatever), scum that are disengaged (that was when I pushed dawoodle and he sat at 3 votes for a long time) they still ask questions, but then their reads don't follow up on those questions. I can take the excerpt from that game to prove my point, as I can't really explain it properly in here, but hope you got the point. Using TMI, he can give easy reads on other people, but it's not about the reads he's making, it's about the questions he asks that DON'T match his reads at all. Which is a sign of TMI. You can't possible post one thing in the thread, probe into specific people (because you most likely scum read them) and then give reads that are good on other people. Which tells me that he probably wasn't focused on his questions at all and followed the thread state more clearly in his head to see where he can push easily. I can make a comparison by quoting his posts and his conclusions that have nothing to do with each other, which I most likely will.

I made a step by step analysis in my notes that I can provide, but I think that it's just junk level as it was not really made to be posted, more of thought dumping.

[insomnia]

I think we probably have all scum but 1 targeted right now..i am not quite sure how many scum is in this damn town.

Ima, can you explain your thought process here? I can think of a few explanations, but would like to hear yours.

Billy, how confident are you that the metas do not/have not changed from the games that you looked at?

Ima, #107, do you feel like you got any informative reactions from it?

djstr and luca aren't team mates.

Why?

Bumping this because it is a fair question considering that Luca had posted twice at this point.

What about that post indicates that they're not partners though?

So who are the scum for you, dawoodle?

I think at least one of Blatant and Billy are scum. Dsjstr is suspect, and Luca is null but leaning scum. I can go into my reasoning if anyone is interested.

The interaction around Billy's vote for Blatant was strange. The evolution of explanation for Billy's vote was suspect. On the other hand, since the first day, most of Blatant's posts have either been defensive or just general process. I have not seen what I would consider scum hunting from him and the aggressive push against Billy's vote is one piece of that.

For dsjstr, he put a vote on me to "get some activity" (#77) and in the day since, his only activity has been confirming that it was an L-2 vote (#79) and justifying his lack of posts by saying it was comparable to Ima's number of posts (#122). If he actually wanted some activity, I would expect him to post.

For luca, his lack of activity concerns me. As Billy pointed out, he was supposedly catching up in "a few hours" a day ago, and has been silent ever since. If he starts posting and interacting, I will reevaluate based on his behavior.

Most of these reads are made under the assumption that I am a villager. As a townie, the wolves should be happy that suspicion is on me and would avoid scumhunting for the easy mislynch. Regardless of whether I am town or not though, villagers should still be looking for the second scum which seems to be lacking.

Get my point? This guy had no read on Billy, asked him something about meta, then decided to make a read on him. Look at those questions and what he gets at with them.

Or rather, look at what's NOT there. Where's the conclusion he got from his questions? It's almost as if it's an entirely new approach and his questions weren't even there.

Questions are asked in order to SORT people. None of the questions dawoodle asked could have possibly lead him to those reads in the wall. Read the questions. That's literally every single question he asked up to that wall.

Scum have to fake trying to sort, and hence, they have to look like they are trying to solve. Key difference here.

Look like

they're trying to solve. How do you pretend trying to solve? By asking questions.

His questions don't lead to that read on Billy, therefore, they had no value in sorting anyone. Therefore, he has TMI, therefore, he's scum. You get the point.

Yeah, so actually, no, I'm not willing to re-evaluate. There's no way someone says "most of these reads are made under the assumption i am a villager. regardless of whether i am town or not..."

Seriously? A town would literally explode. This is way too reasonable to be town. Like, yeah, I get his points, but there's no way he's this objective and calm as a villager. He's not even voting anyone / pushing his reads. He's like "yeah so 1 scum in blatant / billy is where I'm at", good, push your reads.

I'm sorry but I just can't move my vote. I honestly think this is scum, scratch my previous post, I've seen this wall again and it's still bad.

His Billy read is saying "He's scum because...But actually he does have a point on Blatant, so I'll keep my vote on Blatant" ??????????

keep it simple, lynch dawoodle, if he flips scum then lynch billy. Occam's razor. Keep it simple.

if he's not scum, look into djstrs next.

[insomnia]

And, by the way, me making a read before the 100 post mark doesn't change it's accuracy in any way. You don't need tons of information to find scum. Actually, it was demonstrated that you get more confused when presented with tons of information, rather than with a low amount of information. It helps you keep a clear head.

Scum lynches do exist on day one, town lynches are more likely on day one. But scum lynches also do exist.

Ima and literally everyone that's not voting dawoodle, what reasons do you actually have for defending dawoodle here? Anything deep / nuanced? If you call it a tunnel, prove me wrong and try to work with me. If the only reason you have for not voting him is "insomnia's read was made too early, no way it's scum" then lol you. Not even considering this option as a scum is faulty. Please let me know your concerns about my read, I think it's quite good.

Also, the inconsistency in dawoodle's reactions is also glaring. Remember when I first called him out on his first wall? Read his reaction there and his reaction in this wall and see the difference. He's calming himself down and is trying not to flail. It's just not town consistency.

Again, if your reason for not voting dawoodle is because it was a post-whatever-under-100-read then you're not having an actual town read, you're just doubting my capabilities. If you're doubting them, then read him for yourself and debate with me. Why is he town???

[insomnia]

You're literally saying "It was a day one read so it's bound to be wrong", ok, prove me wrong. Work with me. Show me where you think I'm wrong. I'm not a tunneler, but the evidence is so compelling to me that I can't really change my view on it. Nothing else is as scummy as dawoodle. Honestly.

I actually came in with quite a clear head and was really opened, so my initial read was not even a tunnel, despite what you choose to believe. I was actually willing to listen to him. I wasn't actively looking for scum, it just happened I skimmed his post and went "Oh, this is looking really bad". I explained it, what do you disagree with?

Now, perhaps, it is quite a tunnel, but I think it's for the right reasons.

[insomnia]

Well if town look for scum, not town wouldnt that put dawoodle more on the town side considering he gave 3 scum reads opposed to 2 town reads.

Ok, I misspoke there. What I meant was that, town look for scum, as in they probe their scum reads, as opposed to looking to validate their town read on someone. You don't come back to your most confident town read. You have nothing to sort there. Dawoodle would just keep coming back at me with questions for no reasons, what's he looking to achieve, he already has a scum read on me?

This point is in connection with the "asking questions" point thing I made in the massive wall. He's not even ACTUALLY looking for scum which is even worse. Hope you understood what I meant now.

[insomnia]

And, by the way, me making a read before the 100 post mark doesn't change it's accuracy in any way. You don't need tons of information to find scum. Actually, it was demonstrated that you get more confused when presented with tons of information, rather than with a low amount of information. It helps you keep a clear head.

Scum lynches do exist on day one, town lynches are more likely on day one. But scum lynches also do exist.

Ima and literally everyone that's not voting dawoodle, what reasons do you actually have for defending dawoodle here? Anything deep / nuanced? If you call it a tunnel, prove me wrong and try to work with me. If the only reason you have for not voting him is "insomnia's read was made too early, no way it's scum" then lol you. Not even considering this option as a scum is faulty. Please let me know your concerns about my read, I think it's quite good.

Also, the inconsistency in dawoodle's reactions is also glaring. Remember when I first called him out on his first wall? Read his reaction there and his reaction in this wall and see the difference. He's calming himself down and is trying not to flail. It's just not town consistency.

Again, if your reason for not voting dawoodle is because it was a post-whatever-under-100-read then you're not having an actual town read, you're just doubting my capabilities. If you're doubting them, then read him for yourself and debate with me. Why is he town???

Im not clearing dawoodle as town. Infact i gave a list of my sus list and stated i see him as more sus than you. However, i havent see anything from him that has made me think he is scum totally.

He asked me a question on post #87 and after i answered that he gave me a follow up question in post #149. I am in no way saying that makes him town but you are giving him less credit for his post than i am.

Did he share with us his results from probing you?

>If yes, it's goodie
>If not, he wasn't actually probing you / has no intent of sorting you. Well, if you ask me, the reason would be that he doesn't want to clear in the mislynch pool, especially if I'm right on him and Billy.

If he doesn't have results from probing you, he was not sorting you. Simple.

And I read his probing into you and the two questions don't really have a connection with each other, he lacks following through.

Asking questions =/= sorting someone.

[insomnia]

You voted for me because I voted for dawoodle

Btw, spy, thoughts on this specific post?

I will say I town read it, I'll wait for your answer though.

[insomnia]

That’s not the answer I was looking for, but here’s why I town read it.

What scum, knowing that he’s voting a town, would ever use that excuse in order to call someone else out?

It proves two things, one, he actually believes that dawoodle is scum, even if it’s based on my reasoning

And two, he doesn’t have TMI on dawoodle.

[insomnia]

The only thing I didn’t like about djstr is that he said he doesn’t trust SE’s but he’s following the lead of an SE right now, as well as his reasoning. But he did mention he town reads me, despite knowing I’m an SE.

I just want to lynch dawoodle, I really think he flips scum here. If he does, it clears dsjstr, a potential mislynch bait. If he doesn’t flip, then I’m considering djstr tomorrow and will follow you.

[insomnia]

dsjstr and BS have both joined your BW without providing or contributing to your case.

Scum are more likely to provide a reason for joining a wagon anyway from my experience

So it’s a good thing

[insomnia]

I already explained that I expressed it wrongly. I don’t actually believe that lol.

It’s actually easier to find town rather than scum. Villagers should almost always villager hunt.

I had more success hunting town and leaving wolves in a PoE than doing what I’m doing right now

[insomnia]

Yeah spy is probably the closest thing next to a town lock.

[insomnia]

Dawoodle why is Blatant scummier than Luca or anyone else iyo?

[insomnia]

What do other people think about this, if Spy is town wouldn't that also make Dawoodle town

Unfortunately, association flips don't work like that. From my PoV they aren't related in any way. If Spy wanted to save his scum partner dawoodle, he would've voted BS instead of you right here.

[insomnia]

Also, by virtue of dawoodle being under the gun here and him posting only to defend himself without actually providing too much content on the actual game, my honest opinion is that he has to be lynched at some point regardless. Even if it's not today.

But from my PoV, other people are much townier than him so I still see him as scum. His lynch really makes me focus on the right stuff. He's the flip that can change the flow of the game.

[insomnia]

On the other hand, since the first day, most of Blatant's posts have either been defensive or just general process. I have not seen what I would consider scum hunting from him and the aggressive push against Billy's vote is one piece of that.

So this is the reasoning, yes?

[insomnia]

Note sure if that is somewhere mentoined, but.
Notes for newbies:
-get avatar picture, please
-we are in random vote stage. The votes are random, dont get offended by them
-don't hammer (put 5th vote on a person) before asking them for role
-you are having like 85% chance to get lynched - it's normal
-you are going to be really bad in this, especially with determining others' alignments

Vocabulary:
-https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations
-these are important:
*FoS: Finger of Suspicion. Used to indicate that you find someone suspicious but are not going to vote them, for whatever reason (often because you are voting for someone even more suspicious).
*L-#: Lynch - number, The number indicates how many votes a player needs to be lynched. Eg, in a 9 player game, a player with 3 votes on him is at L-2 (5-3).
*LyLo: Lynch-Or-Lose. This is a stage in the game where the town must lynch scum or they will lose the game.
*NAI: Non-Alignment-Indicative, or null. You can't decide whether a person is scum or town from that.
*PL: Policy Lynch. Lynch someone for other reason than bein scummy.
*PoE: Process of Elimination. If you are townreading 7/9 people, you are scumreading the rest via PoE.
*PR: Power Role or Post Restriction, depending on context.
*RVS: Random Voting Stage. Most Mafia games start with a phase wherein people vote for silly reasons, until someone slips up or makes a legitimate accusation.
*SE: Semi-experienced. This refers to nominally experienced players with no extra responsibility in Newbie games. Alternatively, The Speakeasy, a private General Discussion subforum.
*V/LA: Vacation/Limited Access. A catch-all term for "unavailable due to MeatWorld constraints".

Last time you did this you were scum, and I checked and couldn't find a game where you did this as town. So did you mean to say you do this in all your newbie scum games?

VOTE: Blatant Scum

Come on people this one was blatantly obvious.

I did it in all newbie games after I was scum and posted this.

Do you seriously think that I am intentionally posting a certain opening only in newbie games where I am scum?

Do you have an alt? Because this is literally the first newbie you're in (maybe even the first game you're in) since 1970.

I have alts, but I don't play newbie games on alts.

How long do you all wanna make this day last? Are we trying to squeeze the juice out of this motha... or are we looking to shoot first and ask questions later?

Giving the intent to hammer 3-4 days before deadline is ideal in my opinion.

Yeah, that way scum doesnt have an excuse to lynch the claimed cop. . .

True.

What about these posts is aggressive pushing against Billy's vote? Or which one of em?

[insomnia]

Despite me actively advocating for your lynch, I doubt that you'll actually be the lynch tbh.

I didn't mean to undermine your posting, I specifically meant solving. You are posting game related content. It's just that, because I am constantly on you, your views might be skewed anyway and you're forced to defend yourself more than scum hunting. I'm sorry if you took offence there.

I do think other people are way townier than you are and your lynch here can shift the game in the right direction, at least for me. It's just like you said, you're also limited to scum reading a few people, and those reads are because someone's not reacting to a claimed RVS vote and the other is someone that I also scum read. Meaning the Billy slot.

It seems to me that you're reluctant to voting Billy. You scum read Billy's progression more than you scum read Blatant, or at least that's what your posting implies to me, but you're not voting there.

If I had compelling evidence to chase another lead I would've done so, but everyone is really townie in my eyes. I'm sorry if you're town and I tunneled you and ruined your experience. I know how it can be to be at the receiving end of a tunnel, which is why I still gave you *some* room to breathe, but you've not done anything with it that screams town.

[insomnia]

I just really am that confident on my read on you. It's a combination of scum hunting but the bright contrast between you and other people, where they are a lot townier than you, so it's a combination of the two fundamental things.

If I were to give you another chance, you'd have to vote with me on Billy. But otherwise, I'll keep on advocating for you lynch.

[insomnia]

Towniness is less thinking about what you post and just react on things.

Scum are methodical in their approach, they can't fake emotions. They think it's for dummies. Emotions are what distinguish town from scum most of the time.

You're just...WAYYYY too reasonable for a town here. I know this is getting old, but if I were a town here, I would've done everything to avoid my lynch. You're just sitting at 3 votes, not moving your vote, not actively getting people to vote your scum reads and on top of that, you just don't care for getting lynched, which is almost never townie.

You just are way too methodical. You need to let your emotions get the better of you in the thread. For example, if you see a post that really makes you ask yourself questions, react to it, be like "Why in the actual heck (pg friendly) did you even post this? What's the point of this?"

You often asked me "Aren't you agreeing with me?". I do, and that's the thing. You make way too much sense and are way too reasonable for me to think you're town. You're way too objective. It's like you're calculating every move, which is inherently scummy. Townies react more, scum are calculating in their minds more. Hope it makes sense and you take something out of this.

[insomnia]

Otoh, if you're a town here, if you can develop good scum hunting abilities, this will almost always help you and you'll have a huge advantage over the others. But I just don't think someone can possibly be as non-reactive as you are right now.

[insomnia]

Let's suppose I don't scum read you here and I want to work with you. Why should I vote Blatant? Convince me.

Tell me your town reads and your reasons for town reading them. Why did you come to the conclusion of "Exactly one in between BS and Billy"? Why is Billy a weaker scum lean than BS?

Thoughts on Poyzin? He posted a few times but I don't think you ever said anything about him

[insomnia]

See, this is some townie shit and good reads and thoughts. This is what I'm looking for.

I am willing to vote Billy man, I don't give a damn if he subbed out, that slot is cursed, like 3 people changed it. Let's give the mod an easy time and stop looking for replacement. Put that slot in the grave.

VOTE: Billy slot

[insomnia]

If you keep posting like this and asking good questions as well, I might not even push you tomorrow.

[insomnia]

But your vote is on BS tho.

[insomnia]

Poyzin, while you're here, thoughts on Billy and Dawoodle? What about Blatant?

[insomnia]

Yeah, I like your take on BS. Can you quote some posts that you feel like made you say "wow, dawoodle is really town for this" and your thought process behind reaching that conclusion, please?

[insomnia]

I actually really want to lynch Dawoodle because it's a puzzle piece that is messing up my other reads, but everyone is so reluctant to voting him. I just want to hear all of them out and hopefully get them to change their opinion. I don't think anything he's done is particularly townie.

Even his most recent post, although I really like it, why didn't he feel like pushing Billy over that theory instead of sitting on an afk slot? That's why I thought it was a bus and I'm still buying it. He still doesn't vote him. Why?

He has no issue sitting on an afk slot, but a replacement slot?

I am fine with any of them two getting lynched, but I'd much rather prefer dawoodle because it changes my perception on a lot of things. I think you're town, although a lot of your reads are different than mine. I think spy is the towniest out of everyone, Luca's also sitting there somewhere. Would you like to vote dawoodle with me, or are his posts making you feel like "Damn, I just can't lynch this!". If so, why? What has he said that turns you away from voting him?

That question is available for everyone that is kind of ignoring dawoodle here.

[insomnia]

I think you’re misinterpreting my meaning. I am not saying that you shouldn’t think while playing this game and reacting like a baby at a shining object, being easily distracted by the smallest of things. I am saying that, if you happen to skim the thread and come across something that just irks your gutdar (gut radar) , then point it out and explain why it made you feel a certain way and why it’s scummy.

I am encouraging not going through a pre-filter of thoughts and keeping reactivity to a minimum, because that’s playing like scum. Scum can be caught just by virtue of people being town, scum can’t fake emotions.

Just...let loose sometimes when you see something that bothers you. React upon it when doing your post-by-post catchup. Don’t let it slide.

But this is mafia theory and whatever. I actually would like to be able to scum read people off selling lies but more often than not, that just doesn’t work for me. And with townies being a lot more hypocritical and having personal agendas, I think it’s not really an advantageous way.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a really logical player, although it might not seem like it. I think about a lot of stuff. I just am transparent when conveying my thoughts, giving every detail.

[insomnia]

Uuuuu what’s good Flippy, haven’t played in a while

[insomnia]

I concur.

[insomnia]

you just called him town, why the change?

[insomnia]

well, you were the one asking for my thoughts

but i guess i can tell where you're headed at?

[insomnia]

Well if town look for scum, not town wouldnt that put dawoodle more on the town side considering he gave 3 scum reads opposed to 2 town reads.

Ok, I misspoke there. What I meant was that, town look for scum, as in they probe their scum reads, as opposed to looking to validate their town read on someone. You don't come back to your most confident town read. You have nothing to sort there. Dawoodle would just keep coming back at me with questions for no reasons, what's he looking to achieve, he already has a scum read on me?

This point is in connection with the "asking questions" point thing I made in the massive wall. He's not even ACTUALLY looking for scum which is even worse. Hope you understood what I meant now.

Considering this, what's your take on the Luca Blight - DJ interactions on page 9/10?

I mean I can kind of see why you’d think about 214 and 216 being like that, but I can also see some sort of progression on dstrsj. It’s not like Luca came in with the intent of placing a vote on dj anyway, he was just doing his catch up while maintaining a live interaction with dj as well. I think he kept answering his questions, saw how scummy they were, went back to do the catch up, saw other stuff that were scummy, and by the time he was done he focused all his attention on dj.

I’m not sure, much more comfortable with a Flippy lynch right now. It’s 12 am, I’m probably gonna re-assess this whole thing tomorrow, but all in all I had townie lean on Luca throughout the game.

[insomnia]

Flippy we pushed you up to claim range, got 24 hours or my scum buddy will hammer you, unprompted.

[insomnia]

Bruh we’re lynching Flippy

[insomnia]

Bruh we’re lynching Flippy

why?

cuz he scummy scum scum

[insomnia]

If there's a scum between Luca and djstr, that would probably be djstr. Remember this read in case LyLo formation is exactly that and whoever's reading this post.

[insomnia]

The reason why I'm not going for djstr is because his style is so fucking cocky that I don't think it's scum. It's just not a point of interest for me, if he keeps acting scummy and others townier, then he's gonna get PoE'd regardless. I don't feel confident chasing a scum read on that slot, at least not for now. I want more flips first to see what he is.

He's inherently scummy to the point of he's too scum to be a scum. The difference between too wolf to be a wolf and just actual wolf is agenda, and him having these fights have no point for him right now.

He's just throwing shit, hoping it sticks.

Flippy is probably gonna claim VT anyway, if he was a PR he would've cared more for this game. I told him he was at claim range and he didn't say anything, he's stalling.

[insomnia]

Ico and Luca you're both town, stop this shit.

ico - spy - luca blight - me - lucca - poyzin

all town.

flippy - dawoodle - djstr

all scum.

lynch in scum pile only gents.

[insomnia]

That's the scum PoE with a town in it.

[insomnia]

Just because you're being tied to three scum buddies doesn't absolve you. Moreso, it makes you an even worse suspect, because you fit in all worlds.

[insomnia]

Probaby an unpopular opinion but if anyone wants to discuss, let me know

After flippy gets lynched and we see the flip

[insomnia]

Aight hammer peeps

[insomnia]

That's actually L-2 lmfao

[insomnia]

can you self vote?

[insomnia]

can you self vote?

Are you convinced I’m scum? Or is it just cos I said you felt weird

First.

[insomnia]

Honestly, how did you even expect me to have answered that question lmao

[insomnia]

Ico and whoever's not on flippy, can you rectify that?

nobody's saying anything, the wagons won't shift, we're literally wasting time for no reason.

flippy's not giving further reads, he said his farewells.

unless you have a big wall of text coming that you can't compose during the night, please vote.

[insomnia]

ds vote flippy

[insomnia]

he's l-1

[insomnia]

oh nvm

night night

[insomnia]

Tonight's death will be revealing as to what setup we're in, just so you are aware of this as well.

especially if flippy flips red.

it doesn't reveal the setup but it narrows it down.

[insomnia]

I don't like how ds is shading people before the flip.

[insomnia]

there's no way you're dying lol

[insomnia]

yo flips don't play with my feelings, what are you

[insomnia]

good, thanks

[insomnia]

that probably clears ds then, jsyk.

get dawoodle tomorrow

[insomnia]

i don't think you are, flippy

[insomnia]

if he's town then sort in

poyzin - dsjstr - and uhhh

[insomnia]

dawoodle ?

[insomnia]

yo flippy, how do you feel about ds posting like this before your flip?

[insomnia]

if he's town then sort in

poyzin - dsjstr - and uhhh

dawoodle ?

So why these three?

You’re the least town.

But given mafia left me alive here I’ll actually turn myself into a wim machine and figure it out.

Nobody should blame themselves for the Flippy lynch by the way.

[insomnia]

yea i agree.. we need to get down to 1 mafia before we start talking about final 3. Im calling dsjstr and poyzin maf this game.. if im wrong ill never play here again

What warrants the level of confidence in this post? Do you have any compelling evidence?

[insomnia]

Clidd, why’d you spend more than 1/4 of your wall dedicating it to an essential null read? (Me)

[insomnia]

Actually, closer to half of it.

I’ll get down on PC and analyse everything.

Eventually.

[insomnia]

Also, was that wall made before you entered the game? It has flippy and billy there.

[insomnia]

Clidd, why are you town reading Luca for cohesion and town reading Billy for the lack of it?

[insomnia]

There's been so many replacements that I honestly don't even know who the fuck is who.

This game's an honest wreck.

[insomnia]

Blatant Scum - He's very vague in everything he does and says, it's easy to mistake him for a scum. Given the inaccuracy of my read about him, i judge as null.

What made you believe that he wasn't just actual scum? Like, how did you distinguish "he's scum" from "oh, wait, he's just too scummy to be scum"?

[insomnia]

Spoiler: Big ass case coming at you

I think the kill only makes sense from a dsjstr scum perspective. Luca had meta with him and kept on pushing him. Luca wasn't really a universal town read, several people were scum reading his lack of activity, Iconeum tunneled him for a bit. It's just a thoughtless kill.

I am tempted to say that the flippy lynch was all town. I don;t think scum were on it at all.

Ds's positioning yesterday and how he started scum reading us for the votes on Flippy prior to him even flipping adds to this theory. Ds was gonna set someone on the wagon regardless. I think that EoD only makes sense for him if he knows before hand that Flippy is town.

I think I would've killed Iconeum to be honest. He's the only one that knows my meta here.

If dsjstr is a scum, then I'm 80% confident that the wagon on Billy was all town.

==========

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

I will proceed by sorting the neutrals (yellow colour). I honestly think Iconeum never flips scum here, his interaction with Luca reeked of towniness and lacked TMI. I'll eat my hat if he's scum here, and he'll have my utmost respect. I'm just never re-considering Iconeum here. I'm willing to lose to a him scum world.

Poyzin I'm ambivalent on, but I'm actually leaning town on, for some reason. I think it was mostly his reads and his tone, but I'll reconsider it with the green flips in mind.

I have a hard time discerning whether clidd is actually scared of my scum skills or if he's setting me up for today. I think it would be dumb to do so, but I can totally see why he'd do it. His reluctance to come to a conclusion and investing a lot more time on me, a seemingly null-read, is raising some concerns, with a lowercase c, because it isn't really

that

serious. and probably won't regard when analysing him anyway.

dawoodle...ah man. This guy. There's just some stuff, upon a re-read, that just don't make sense to post as a wolf. I'll expound below on each one of these people.

=========

Poyzin : Reading his #236, it starts out by saying "I can see some sense in what you're saying", but then the whole progression within that post is reaching the conclusion of "however, I think he's town". This is weird, because, I can't tell what he wanted to achieve with this post? He's not town reading Luca explicitly for his thought process, but he's not explicitly scum reading dj either? It appeared to me as if he was willing to hear Luca out on his reasoning, but the post just ends in this denial of his initial scum read of djstr, therefore, contradicting what he was saying, although, technically, he was pacing Luca's reality for a minute there. I think this interaction is a big minus for Poyzin here.

Same with his #237, he's not really scum reading, nor town reading spy here for his push, he just disagrees with it. Good, what does that tell about spy's alignment here? I just wished to have seen more probing there.

And then, from #258 onward, he starts tunneling on Spy. His #258 I really dislike, because it's pushing on something that looks scummy, rather than something that will actually make Spy more likely to flip scum here. Unvoting and re-voting isn't a serious scum reading reason, especially for someone that played one year of mafia. For his level, this is fairly shallow.

#318 is what I'd expect wolf players to make. It reads to me as if he chose his scum read for the day and will push on it regardless. I think the stuff he's pushing spy for doesn't warrant the level of confidence that Poyzin is trying to show off there. I think it's fake bravado.

Needless to say it just keeps getting worse and worse, Poyzin is probably scum here and will most likely be my vote for today. It's my most confident read as of right now.

(If he's scum, I'll quote the post where I say Poyzin is scum for his entry post and will say "I told you")

As for potential spew, I think that in his #370 he spews dawoodle town, which is good for me. That null-read, at that stage of the game, is essentially saying "I sorta town read the guy, but if push comes down to shove, I'd be down voting him" which isn't a read you'd give on your partner. I'll most likely come back to this.
==============

dawoodle :

Despite his wall, I must admit that I felt like his opening was townie. Especially post #46, I don't think I've ever seen a wolf addressing the "role card" thing. I'm sure it was addressed at some time, but, in the context where dawoodle is a newbie (if he is, I don't remember him saying he had a past experience), I don't see him saying that, almost at all.

I feel like a massive dumbass for scum reading dawoodle on his wall and then never reconsidering. Looking at him now without my bias is fairly easy to follow through his thoughts and his scum reads make sense.

His little jump backs at me make sense because I was essentially ignoring him, and even though he was town reading me for my case on him, he was more concerned with the fact I wasn't addressing his genuine thoughts, which is a more townie mentality than not, because he was paranoid and sensed my lack of trying to understand his PoV.

I'll stop at his #184 - I get the overall idea, it makes a lot of sense from his PoV, and not to mention, it would be extra dumb to convey that idea like he did "this is assuming i'm a villager", which a wolf would never even think about posting.

I think dawoodle's town here, so I'll move on with the last slot that I have a null on.

=============

I will do this in two separate sections, lucca and clidd.

a) lucca

I really liked his entrance.

There's nothing really to comment on, it looked like he seemed to reach the same point as me, which was that ds and poyzin are likely team mates. The only thing that I don't get is his votes, like, he focuses on some stuff and then his votes are like throw out the window, like the analysis was never there in the first place.

Apart from that, this dude is townie as all hell. I would fear his scum game if I ever played with him again and he was scum this game.

b) clidd

there are some points that I still want clidd to address, but all in all, I think he's town, virtue of his slot that was the epitome of towniness. I am waiting more from him, but, overall...

Clidd is probably also town.

=======

Let's try this again with the missing puzzle pieces.

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr

,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

======

Final scum team,

dsjstr

and

Poyzin

.

TL;DR Poyzin and dsjstr are the scum team.

VOTE: Poyzin

[insomnia]

If I'm wrong on any of the non-voters and Poyzin, there was a wolf on flippy, and it was most likely IMASPY.

[insomnia]

yea i agree.. we need to get down to 1 mafia before we start talking about final 3. Im calling dsjstr and poyzin maf this game.. if im wrong ill never play here again

What warrants the level of confidence in this post? Do you have any compelling evidence?

Spoiler: Big ass case coming at you

I think the kill only makes sense from a dsjstr scum perspective. Luca had meta with him and kept on pushing him. Luca wasn't really a universal town read, several people were scum reading his lack of activity, Iconeum tunneled him for a bit. It's just a thoughtless kill.

I am tempted to say that the flippy lynch was all town. I don;t think scum were on it at all.

Ds's positioning yesterday and how he started scum reading us for the votes on Flippy prior to him even flipping adds to this theory. Ds was gonna set someone on the wagon regardless. I think that EoD only makes sense for him if he knows before hand that Flippy is town.

I think I would've killed Iconeum to be honest. He's the only one that knows my meta here.

If dsjstr is a scum, then I'm 80% confident that the wagon on Billy was all town.

==========

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

I will proceed by sorting the neutrals (yellow colour). I honestly think Iconeum never flips scum here, his interaction with Luca reeked of towniness and lacked TMI. I'll eat my hat if he's scum here, and he'll have my utmost respect. I'm just never re-considering Iconeum here. I'm willing to lose to a him scum world.

Poyzin I'm ambivalent on, but I'm actually leaning town on, for some reason. I think it was mostly his reads and his tone, but I'll reconsider it with the green flips in mind.

I have a hard time discerning whether clidd is actually scared of my scum skills or if he's setting me up for today. I think it would be dumb to do so, but I can totally see why he'd do it. His reluctance to come to a conclusion and investing a lot more time on me, a seemingly null-read, is raising some concerns, with a lowercase c, because it isn't really

that

serious. and probably won't regard when analysing him anyway.

dawoodle...ah man. This guy. There's just some stuff, upon a re-read, that just don't make sense to post as a wolf. I'll expound below on each one of these people.

=========

Poyzin : Reading his #236, it starts out by saying "I can see some sense in what you're saying", but then the whole progression within that post is reaching the conclusion of "however, I think he's town". This is weird, because, I can't tell what he wanted to achieve with this post? He's not town reading Luca explicitly for his thought process, but he's not explicitly scum reading dj either? It appeared to me as if he was willing to hear Luca out on his reasoning, but the post just ends in this denial of his initial scum read of djstr, therefore, contradicting what he was saying, although, technically, he was pacing Luca's reality for a minute there. I think this interaction is a big minus for Poyzin here.

Same with his #237, he's not really scum reading, nor town reading spy here for his push, he just disagrees with it. Good, what does that tell about spy's alignment here? I just wished to have seen more probing there.

And then, from #258 onward, he starts tunneling on Spy. His #258 I really dislike, because it's pushing on something that looks scummy, rather than something that will actually make Spy more likely to flip scum here. Unvoting and re-voting isn't a serious scum reading reason, especially for someone that played one year of mafia. For his level, this is fairly shallow.

#318 is what I'd expect wolf players to make. It reads to me as if he chose his scum read for the day and will push on it regardless. I think the stuff he's pushing spy for doesn't warrant the level of confidence that Poyzin is trying to show off there. I think it's fake bravado.

Needless to say it just keeps getting worse and worse, Poyzin is probably scum here and will most likely be my vote for today. It's my most confident read as of right now.

(If he's scum, I'll quote the post where I say Poyzin is scum for his entry post and will say "I told you")

As for potential spew, I think that in his #370 he spews dawoodle town, which is good for me. That null-read, at that stage of the game, is essentially saying "I sorta town read the guy, but if push comes down to shove, I'd be down voting him" which isn't a read you'd give on your partner. I'll most likely come back to this.
==============

dawoodle :

Despite his wall, I must admit that I felt like his opening was townie. Especially post #46, I don't think I've ever seen a wolf addressing the "role card" thing. I'm sure it was addressed at some time, but, in the context where dawoodle is a newbie (if he is, I don't remember him saying he had a past experience), I don't see him saying that, almost at all.

I feel like a massive dumbass for scum reading dawoodle on his wall and then never reconsidering. Looking at him now without my bias is fairly easy to follow through his thoughts and his scum reads make sense.

His little jump backs at me make sense because I was essentially ignoring him, and even though he was town reading me for my case on him, he was more concerned with the fact I wasn't addressing his genuine thoughts, which is a more townie mentality than not, because he was paranoid and sensed my lack of trying to understand his PoV.

I'll stop at his #184 - I get the overall idea, it makes a lot of sense from his PoV, and not to mention, it would be extra dumb to convey that idea like he did "this is assuming i'm a villager", which a wolf would never even think about posting.

I think dawoodle's town here, so I'll move on with the last slot that I have a null on.

=============

I will do this in two separate sections, lucca and clidd.

a) lucca

I really liked his entrance.

There's nothing really to comment on, it looked like he seemed to reach the same point as me, which was that ds and poyzin are likely team mates. The only thing that I don't get is his votes, like, he focuses on some stuff and then his votes are like throw out the window, like the analysis was never there in the first place.

Apart from that, this dude is townie as all hell. I would fear his scum game if I ever played with him again and he was scum this game.

b) clidd

there are some points that I still want clidd to address, but all in all, I think he's town, virtue of his slot that was the epitome of towniness. I am waiting more from him, but, overall...

Clidd is probably also town.

=======

Let's try this again with the missing puzzle pieces.

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr

,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

======

Final scum team,

dsjstr

and

Poyzin

.

TL;DR Poyzin and dsjstr are the scum team.

VOTE: Poyzin

This is really funny in hindsight lmfao

[insomnia]

Because I have nothing to do, I'll elaborate a bit more on the NKA.

spy, ico, dsjstr, poyzin have all interacted with Luca Blight.

Out of all of them, dsjstr had meta with Luca Blight. Nobody else did have meta with Luca.

Out of all of them, dsjstr was leaning town on him the most, perhaps because he wanted to pocket him, because he knew his meta. The rest were actually questioning his lack of activity.

So, the kill doesn;t make sense from an iconeum / spy point of view. Luca wasn't even an universally town read player regardless, so it doesn't make sense going for him. Unless, there's an ulterior motive, that iconeum and spy don't have. Only ds does.

[insomnia]

Some player, at some point, made a point in a game I was playing...I believe it was chennisden. He did NKA in a way that I've never seen before, and what he said, although made some sort of sense, it doesn't make sense at the same time lmao. Basically, someone was killed in the night, even though he was not town read by a whole lot. The next thing that chennis said was this "So, we have to look at who town read him and we caught scum"

This sounded stupid at first, but it was only after I developed this mentality analysis hunting process that it actually made sense. Scum are more likely to town read people that they feel like are close to the truth / unstoppable / unlynchable. They town lock them and never go back on it. They ignore every possible interaction as much as possible with them. They don't want to sort them, because they are just thinking ahead of time, to the moment they will night kill that person. So, in order to reach the end goal of night killing them, they have to evade their scum read, and so, they'll town read them, pocket them, etc etc. Which is what ds has done.

[insomnia]

Just realized Eth0s has the second most posts... lets get some activity.

VOTE: dawoodle

This is a really ugly looking vote, looks really easy and opportunistic.

Was it a worse vote than voting for you? That was were my vote was before.

That's L-2.

Right! Sorry

And this seems like he feels guilty for his vote.

Or that I didn't announce L-2 which could have hurt the town.

So was my vote on you worthless because you hadn't said anything because you ended by saying that I ignored your question about the vote. Would it matter if I ignored you if it was worthless. Also, its a bit convenient that even though you got your phone back you wait until now to start accusing someone.

Also, its a bit convenient that even though you got your phone back you wait until now to start accusing someone.

So what was this about?

Sounds like you SR me here for the same reason you're now TR'ing me.

You still accused people in that game, but you also made an attempt to... I can't think of the right word but you had a different vibe with people. I guess I am really only speaking from my perspective. There was a point brought up about possible pairings and you were a common slot.

I would like to point out that I still believe that Luca is town even though I just said I don't trust SE's.

I said that I don't trust SE's but I still need to make reads obviously because people are trying to use that as a justification as to why I would be a safe lynch. I am going to make town reads and scum reads some of the town reads have been SE's, I am confident with my read on Luca. I did a little research on insom and I had come to the conclusion that he was town, then when I talked about it in the forum he confirmed my suspicion. There are still 3 more out there that I am unsure of I am not confident that I can get an accurate read on them but I will do my best. If you want to lynch me because some people are still neutral for me than I have nothing else to give you right now.

[insomnia]

Spy was the only one trying to lynch me, if I was going to kill someone to make me look scum I would have just gone for my biggest fan.

That seems highly counter-intuitive. Especially after you said the doctor should be on SPY. I don't think you'd night kill the guy that you send the doctor on. I think you redirect him to get the real person that you are more afraid of. Spy was actually ambivalent on you, kept voting and unvoting, then ended up on Billy. Luca had more drive and a much better motive for scum reading you, knowing your meta.

I was also scum reading poyzin and was trying to get information to try and start a counter wagon but you had to rush the vote. Poyzin I'd still like and answer Luca even asked once, and then later I asked if we could wait untill we heard from poyzin but once again insomnia wanted to rush the lynch.

I didn't rush anything. We were like 24 hours left from a 10 day phase.

[insomnia]

Voting for someone because of the amount of time they put into the game is not a good reason to lynch, it doesn't matter how Emporer flipped I didn't like the reasoning behind the vote.

Can you quote where I ever said that was the reason for me lynching Emperor?

[insomnia]

I was saying Spy lynched for that reasoning.

I believe someone mentioned this before, I'll eventually find it. Thinking it was lucca (?) mentioning that spy is posting from a meta of town coming from fast paced games. If I'm operating under this assumption, his views on the game and how he's always fast in getting his reads out there checks out, especially the parts where he gets tired of long days.

The thing that you're scum reading spy for, devoid of context, can be looked as scummy, but in actual context, is more likely to come from town than not. Wolves can't fabricate this genuine feeling of asking for a lynch just to get new information, which is what I got from spy here. I think it comes from town more than it does from scum. In that context, the thread was pretty stale and nothing was happening, nobody was doing anything, so it makes sense to ask for a lynch, hell, even I was like that, I just wanted to move on and have new information.

Also spy claimed bv in twilight if there was a doc I think they would try to save a PR especially considering the fact that mafia might not have even attacked Spy.

By the way, I've had this in mind, but I decided to hold judgement off. Why are you even assuming there is a doc in the first place?

The setup is comprised of 3 rows and columns. Column C doesn't even contain a Doctor. There's a 66% chance we're in an actual doc setup.

However, I don't think that you slipped or anything, even if you're scum. I think you would've made that claim even if you knew / didn't know what setup you were in.

Oh, note, Spy never actually mentioned anything about his game experience that I can see from his ISO, so the fact that Luca knew about it tells me it was something that he could've probably spilled in the mafia PT. I wouldn't be a cautious player if I wouldn't have also considered this possibility, but this is more of a back-up plan in case I'm wrong on Poyzin and you.

Spy, how did luca know about your mafia experience?

[insomnia]

Actually more willing to point out that I’ll probably start getting scum read for that specific reason, my past meta and current meta. It’s gonna take a few games to wipe that meta out before I can use this as a reasoning for defending myself.

In general, I’d advice to just let me alive. I’ve also improved by a bit (imo) since the last time I played so if I get to live anywhere past Night 3 then you guys can probably suspect me. I’d encourage you to push other people though.

I don’t think you should have any reasoning for suspecting me this early, do you find anything I said to be agenda driven or disingenuous? Do you disagree with my analysis on his wall post? I think I can break it down further but if you didn’t get the crux of it then diving deeper in it will probably make it even more confusing. If you want clarification on my posts, just ask me by the way. I have issues with expressing my thoughts in a convincing and coherent way as it is, so don’t be afraid.

Will this still apply in lylo?

I don't like the intention behind this post, given that I'm currently considering Poyzin scum, which you gave me slack for because "I didn't give you time to evaluate". It reads as disingenuous posturing.

Speaking of which, if you are null on poyzin, what do you think about my case? there are quite some points to address there.

[insomnia]

For the record I called Spy town, and said that I was scum reading poyzin

If we lynch town today then before we get to night 3 we will be in lylo, since you have a lot of control on who gets lynched if you are scum then you can easily position yourself to win.

If I had control, dawoodle would've died on Day 1. I am just providing my analysis, it is people's choice whether they think it is town analysis, and most importantly, if it's good analysis to follow.

I actually would be much more effective if people interacted with me and worked with me, but I assume this position of town leader because I don't trust people all that much, and I'd much rather be wrong myself, although I hate playing like this, I can't really help it if people don't engage me.

There's nothing set in stone, I actually could also be wrong on this one. I can have bad games as well.

[insomnia]

Spoiler: Big ass case coming at you

I think the kill only makes sense from a dsjstr scum perspective. Luca had meta with him and kept on pushing him. Luca wasn't really a universal town read, several people were scum reading his lack of activity, Iconeum tunneled him for a bit. It's just a thoughtless kill.

I am tempted to say that the flippy lynch was all town. I don;t think scum were on it at all.

Ds's positioning yesterday and how he started scum reading us for the votes on Flippy prior to him even flipping adds to this theory. Ds was gonna set someone on the wagon regardless. I think that EoD only makes sense for him if he knows before hand that Flippy is town.

I think I would've killed Iconeum to be honest. He's the only one that knows my meta here.

If dsjstr is a scum, then I'm 80% confident that the wagon on Billy was all town.

==========

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

I will proceed by sorting the neutrals (yellow colour). I honestly think Iconeum never flips scum here, his interaction with Luca reeked of towniness and lacked TMI. I'll eat my hat if he's scum here, and he'll have my utmost respect. I'm just never re-considering Iconeum here. I'm willing to lose to a him scum world.

Poyzin I'm ambivalent on, but I'm actually leaning town on, for some reason. I think it was mostly his reads and his tone, but I'll reconsider it with the green flips in mind.

I have a hard time discerning whether clidd is actually scared of my scum skills or if he's setting me up for today. I think it would be dumb to do so, but I can totally see why he'd do it. His reluctance to come to a conclusion and investing a lot more time on me, a seemingly null-read, is raising some concerns, with a lowercase c, because it isn't really

that

serious. and probably won't regard when analysing him anyway.

dawoodle...ah man. This guy. There's just some stuff, upon a re-read, that just don't make sense to post as a wolf. I'll expound below on each one of these people.

=========

Poyzin : Reading his #236, it starts out by saying "I can see some sense in what you're saying", but then the whole progression within that post is reaching the conclusion of "however, I think he's town". This is weird, because, I can't tell what he wanted to achieve with this post? He's not town reading Luca explicitly for his thought process, but he's not explicitly scum reading dj either? It appeared to me as if he was willing to hear Luca out on his reasoning, but the post just ends in this denial of his initial scum read of djstr, therefore, contradicting what he was saying, although, technically, he was pacing Luca's reality for a minute there. I think this interaction is a big minus for Poyzin here.

Same with his #237, he's not really scum reading, nor town reading spy here for his push, he just disagrees with it. Good, what does that tell about spy's alignment here? I just wished to have seen more probing there.

And then, from #258 onward, he starts tunneling on Spy. His #258 I really dislike, because it's pushing on something that looks scummy, rather than something that will actually make Spy more likely to flip scum here. Unvoting and re-voting isn't a serious scum reading reason, especially for someone that played one year of mafia. For his level, this is fairly shallow.

#318 is what I'd expect wolf players to make. It reads to me as if he chose his scum read for the day and will push on it regardless. I think the stuff he's pushing spy for doesn't warrant the level of confidence that Poyzin is trying to show off there. I think it's fake bravado.

Needless to say it just keeps getting worse and worse, Poyzin is probably scum here and will most likely be my vote for today. It's my most confident read as of right now.

(If he's scum, I'll quote the post where I say Poyzin is scum for his entry post and will say "I told you")

As for potential spew, I think that in his #370 he spews dawoodle town, which is good for me. That null-read, at that stage of the game, is essentially saying "I sorta town read the guy, but if push comes down to shove, I'd be down voting him" which isn't a read you'd give on your partner. I'll most likely come back to this.
==============

dawoodle :

Despite his wall, I must admit that I felt like his opening was townie. Especially post #46, I don't think I've ever seen a wolf addressing the "role card" thing. I'm sure it was addressed at some time, but, in the context where dawoodle is a newbie (if he is, I don't remember him saying he had a past experience), I don't see him saying that, almost at all.

I feel like a massive dumbass for scum reading dawoodle on his wall and then never reconsidering. Looking at him now without my bias is fairly easy to follow through his thoughts and his scum reads make sense.

His little jump backs at me make sense because I was essentially ignoring him, and even though he was town reading me for my case on him, he was more concerned with the fact I wasn't addressing his genuine thoughts, which is a more townie mentality than not, because he was paranoid and sensed my lack of trying to understand his PoV.

I'll stop at his #184 - I get the overall idea, it makes a lot of sense from his PoV, and not to mention, it would be extra dumb to convey that idea like he did "this is assuming i'm a villager", which a wolf would never even think about posting.

I think dawoodle's town here, so I'll move on with the last slot that I have a null on.

=============

I will do this in two separate sections, lucca and clidd.

a) lucca

I really liked his entrance.

There's nothing really to comment on, it looked like he seemed to reach the same point as me, which was that ds and poyzin are likely team mates. The only thing that I don't get is his votes, like, he focuses on some stuff and then his votes are like throw out the window, like the analysis was never there in the first place.

Apart from that, this dude is townie as all hell. I would fear his scum game if I ever played with him again and he was scum this game.

b) clidd

there are some points that I still want clidd to address, but all in all, I think he's town, virtue of his slot that was the epitome of towniness. I am waiting more from him, but, overall...

Clidd is probably also town.

=======

Let's try this again with the missing puzzle pieces.

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr

,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

======

Final scum team,

dsjstr

and

Poyzin

.

TL;DR Poyzin and dsjstr are the scum team.

VOTE: Poyzin

What happened between 280-283 and now to change your opinion on me? You evaluated the exact same posts (you said you stopped at 184 in this analysis). You claimed you entered both of them with an open mind. And yet, you're conclusions could not be any different.

Why do you think Poyzin is more likely than dsjstr to be scum and worth a vote? Especially when you consider dsjstr flipping to clear the wagon on flippy?

As an aside, could you include links to posts when you reference them by number? It's a lot easier to go back and read them for context.

I wasn’t treating you with an open mind, I guess. I was tunneled on you being scum.

I guess you do have a fair point. I prioritize flipping scum first, to me, Poyzin would be the scum that would fit any team.

I guess theory checking is less relevant for me than actually catching scum, but you do seem to raise a fair point. Technically, I’d say that they’re both somewhat equal, but I’m a little more confident on Poyzin.

[insomnia]

Bussing is when a mafia partner votes you and pushes your lynch through.

[insomnia]

"Wouldn't my mafia partner want to bus to look town" can you explain this sentence to me. I'm unfamiliar with bus as a mafia term.

Given you’ve already quoted it and I’m on mobile, I’ll address dsjstr’s question through this post.

No, why would Poyzin bus you when there’s literally nobody voting for you? That’s not busing, that’s game throwing. And I have a somewhat scrambled idea about Poyzin’s mindset, and he’d never bus you like this, at least not in this context. Before he’d get to lynch you, he’d be suspected for such a thoughtless vote.

Dsjstr, I don’t get it. You’re saying you scum read Poyzin and now you’re suggesting he’s town. You said I didn’t give you time to evaluate on Poyzin while implying you thought he was scum.

You really need to explain this.

[insomnia]

When did I say he was town?

I'm not sure why Insom wants to take the attention off of the people on the wagon and go for poyzin

[insomnia]

You literally said poyzin is scum, now you don't wanna lynch him? what is this progression???

[insomnia]

I literally never addressed you, just came up with this. I was the one that actually town read you early on. If you're town, you're helping nobody by lynching yourself here. You walked into the day declaring that poyzin is scum, and now had a switch of heart for no apparent reason. I just want an explanation as to what caused this switch.

[insomnia]

That would sound like a horrible idea.

[insomnia]

If there would’ve been a scummy for the game with the most replacements eth0s would be set for 3 years.

[insomnia]

Look at all the replacements on page 1.

[insomnia]

TSE, read through my ISO, I made a big case, give me your thoughts on it, please.

[insomnia]

Spoiler: Big ass case coming at you

I think the kill only makes sense from a dsjstr scum perspective. Luca had meta with him and kept on pushing him. Luca wasn't really a universal town read, several people were scum reading his lack of activity, Iconeum tunneled him for a bit. It's just a thoughtless kill.

I am tempted to say that the flippy lynch was all town. I don;t think scum were on it at all.

Ds's positioning yesterday and how he started scum reading us for the votes on Flippy prior to him even flipping adds to this theory. Ds was gonna set someone on the wagon regardless. I think that EoD only makes sense for him if he knows before hand that Flippy is town.

I think I would've killed Iconeum to be honest. He's the only one that knows my meta here.

If dsjstr is a scum, then I'm 80% confident that the wagon on Billy was all town.

==========

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

I will proceed by sorting the neutrals (yellow colour). I honestly think Iconeum never flips scum here, his interaction with Luca reeked of towniness and lacked TMI. I'll eat my hat if he's scum here, and he'll have my utmost respect. I'm just never re-considering Iconeum here. I'm willing to lose to a him scum world.

Poyzin I'm ambivalent on, but I'm actually leaning town on, for some reason. I think it was mostly his reads and his tone, but I'll reconsider it with the green flips in mind.

I have a hard time discerning whether clidd is actually scared of my scum skills or if he's setting me up for today. I think it would be dumb to do so, but I can totally see why he'd do it. His reluctance to come to a conclusion and investing a lot more time on me, a seemingly null-read, is raising some concerns, with a lowercase c, because it isn't really

that

serious. and probably won't regard when analysing him anyway.

dawoodle...ah man. This guy. There's just some stuff, upon a re-read, that just don't make sense to post as a wolf. I'll expound below on each one of these people.

=========

Poyzin : Reading his #236, it starts out by saying "I can see some sense in what you're saying", but then the whole progression within that post is reaching the conclusion of "however, I think he's town". This is weird, because, I can't tell what he wanted to achieve with this post? He's not town reading Luca explicitly for his thought process, but he's not explicitly scum reading dj either? It appeared to me as if he was willing to hear Luca out on his reasoning, but the post just ends in this denial of his initial scum read of djstr, therefore, contradicting what he was saying, although, technically, he was pacing Luca's reality for a minute there. I think this interaction is a big minus for Poyzin here.

Same with his #237, he's not really scum reading, nor town reading spy here for his push, he just disagrees with it. Good, what does that tell about spy's alignment here? I just wished to have seen more probing there.

And then, from #258 onward, he starts tunneling on Spy. His #258 I really dislike, because it's pushing on something that looks scummy, rather than something that will actually make Spy more likely to flip scum here. Unvoting and re-voting isn't a serious scum reading reason, especially for someone that played one year of mafia. For his level, this is fairly shallow.

#318 is what I'd expect wolf players to make. It reads to me as if he chose his scum read for the day and will push on it regardless. I think the stuff he's pushing spy for doesn't warrant the level of confidence that Poyzin is trying to show off there. I think it's fake bravado.

Needless to say it just keeps getting worse and worse, Poyzin is probably scum here and will most likely be my vote for today. It's my most confident read as of right now.

(If he's scum, I'll quote the post where I say Poyzin is scum for his entry post and will say "I told you")

As for potential spew, I think that in his #370 he spews dawoodle town, which is good for me. That null-read, at that stage of the game, is essentially saying "I sorta town read the guy, but if push comes down to shove, I'd be down voting him" which isn't a read you'd give on your partner. I'll most likely come back to this.
==============

dawoodle :

Despite his wall, I must admit that I felt like his opening was townie. Especially post #46, I don't think I've ever seen a wolf addressing the "role card" thing. I'm sure it was addressed at some time, but, in the context where dawoodle is a newbie (if he is, I don't remember him saying he had a past experience), I don't see him saying that, almost at all.

I feel like a massive dumbass for scum reading dawoodle on his wall and then never reconsidering. Looking at him now without my bias is fairly easy to follow through his thoughts and his scum reads make sense.

His little jump backs at me make sense because I was essentially ignoring him, and even though he was town reading me for my case on him, he was more concerned with the fact I wasn't addressing his genuine thoughts, which is a more townie mentality than not, because he was paranoid and sensed my lack of trying to understand his PoV.

I'll stop at his #184 - I get the overall idea, it makes a lot of sense from his PoV, and not to mention, it would be extra dumb to convey that idea like he did "this is assuming i'm a villager", which a wolf would never even think about posting.

I think dawoodle's town here, so I'll move on with the last slot that I have a null on.

=============

I will do this in two separate sections, lucca and clidd.

a) lucca

I really liked his entrance.

There's nothing really to comment on, it looked like he seemed to reach the same point as me, which was that ds and poyzin are likely team mates. The only thing that I don't get is his votes, like, he focuses on some stuff and then his votes are like throw out the window, like the analysis was never there in the first place.

Apart from that, this dude is townie as all hell. I would fear his scum game if I ever played with him again and he was scum this game.

b) clidd

there are some points that I still want clidd to address, but all in all, I think he's town, virtue of his slot that was the epitome of towniness. I am waiting more from him, but, overall...

Clidd is probably also town.

=======

Let's try this again with the missing puzzle pieces.

Emperor flippyNips (5):

insomnia

,

dawoodle

,

Luca Blight

,

IMASPY

,

Iconeum

IMASPY (1):

Poyzin

Not Voting (3):

dsjstr

,

Emperor flippyNips

,

lucca261

======

Final scum team,

dsjstr

and

Poyzin

.

TL;DR Poyzin and dsjstr are the scum team.

VOTE: Poyzin

[insomnia]

Think if we mislynch, we go into Lylo.

In the current game state, I think that Poyzin would fit just about any scum team world. Not just with ds. Thing is, I could be wrong on ds, and if I’m wrong on him, it will be exponentially harder for me to aid you guys onto a poyzin lynch in LyLo, because you’ll doubt me and perhaps even scum read me.

I just think Poyzin is a way better lynch that I’m more confident in.

Technically speaking, it should be just dsjstr and poyzin, virtue of other slots being townier. However, I can’t shake off the feeling of one of TSE and spy being scum here, because, it still feels to me as if the game isn’t solved with a Poyzin and dsjstr solve.

[insomnia]

Dsjstr could be faking a breakdown and he genuinely doesn’t know what’s going on or he’s just scum with Poyzin that’s desperate, I don’t know.

[insomnia]

That’s not meta and that’s angle shooting, you should almost never based that for your reads lol

[insomnia]

By the way, I believe I was never the kill on Night 1, I honestly expected either Iconeum or spy to die

[insomnia]

That’s not meta and that’s angle shooting, you should almost never based that for your reads lol

So why is IMA Town for you?

I mean that’s not a reason for me to scum read him lol

[insomnia]

Meta is often misused tho

[insomnia]

Yup, that’s a really bad factor to scum read someone for. People have different stuff going on IRL.

Some people do post less as scum than town, but without a past experience / data, we can’t conclude that poyzin is scum for not posting. Try not to take that into account in future games, because it can make you biased

[insomnia]

Spy, assuming dsjtrs flips town here, who’s the mafia on Emperor’s wagon?

[insomnia]

What about poyzin?

[insomnia]

Well, you would fit just about any team imo. Be it because of your lurkiness or approach to the game I've never mentioned.

I scum read you more for your reason for voting spy and maintaining a tunnel that you got cold feet on as soon as day 2 started. Which prompts the question : Why did you make a full 180 on spy?

[insomnia]

Shit, was I wrong on lucca?

[insomnia]

I'll answer this tomorrow, I'm burnt out, not in a mood for solving.

To answer briefly though, I thought his interaction with Luca was townie, but upon a re-read, I can see it being staged. I'll think about it.

UNVOTE:

I still think Poy is scum but I want time to reconsider Ico.

[insomnia]

TSE, why'd you make this sudden switch? What did you like about Poyzin's response there to the point where it shaked your whole read on him?

[insomnia]

RN I’m trying to figure out if there’s a buss within Spy/DS - Insomnia/Poy - Spy/Poy.

What has Icon been doing all game?
Let me
Check his ISO.

Like, this post says you're gonna sort something, but then, you do something completely different. Also, how do you determine whether there's a bus without having an actual flip in the first place?

[insomnia]

I just think that the man standing on the hill beside me isn’t Town.

And doesn't that change your perspective, at all?

[insomnia]

Poyzin you listed me low on your read list, I had asked if you thought I was that low when you defended me, I'd still like an answer. Think Insom didn't like my post because I figured out his plan

Please stop saying I defended you. I did nothing of the sort. You were that low; I was just highly skeptical of Ima’s line of questioning that I was confident that there was a mafiosi between one of you.

Can you quote some posts for this? What line of questioning made you believe spy and dj had a scum between them. Or, can you say like...How'd you reach the conclusion of "There has to be one scum in between them" and how does ima's line of questioning account for that?

[insomnia]

More meta theory inc. Poyzin was prodded and never responded in thread. Make assumptions with that as you will.

I was indeed prodded. I also made two tiny posts at the beginning of this day. Could you elaborate with what this could mean about my alignment?

That's a loaded question that doesn't help poyzin serve towards figuring spy, it just helps him look good in the process. Because there's no way there's an explanation behind spy's perception of an angle shoot. It was tied to his belief that Poyzin was scum, it doesn't constitute a reason for scum reading him, necessarily.

You all know I’ve been making a consistent post or few once every two days, except for where I dropped the ball and got prodded.

Nobody accused you of not posting, except for spy.

I am very skeptical about the pile on votes to the point where I am now at L-1. It seems that people have been forcing themselves to see me as scum,

To elaborate, changing reads is fine; when people post more content, it can cause opinions that players once had to shift and think that somebody is more town or more scum. The problem is, I didn’t even say anything! I don’t have a problem with people being suspicious of me, as that is part of the game, but how can I become scumread by basically everybody without making a single post in the meantime? Maybe there is a logical reason, but I just am skeptical of everybody’s change of heart, as it seems like scum taking advantage over an inactive townie.

Why does someone need to have more posts in order for other people to have a justified meaning for switching their read on someone? Re-evaluation is a thing. Nobody really had a stance on you, to be honest. You just felt like you were town read because the attention was off. I bet that nobody even mentioned you. Yesterday, I said that if flips is gonna flip green, we should evaluate in you - ds - dawoodle. Which is exactly what I've done, BECAUSE I was not paying attention to you and cleared you early on and then never considered you.

I think you should address the thing that you're actually getting scum read for, which is how you handled the spy slot.

[insomnia]

That's a loaded question that doesn't help poyzin serve towards figuring spy, it just helps him look good in the process. Because there's no way there's an explanation behind spy's perception of an angle shoot. It was tied to his belief that Poyzin was scum, it doesn't constitute a reason for scum reading him, necessarily.

The quotes posts was me saying that the act of me getting prodded is non sequitur and doesn’t put me in either alignment.

Exactly my point, you just make him look bad, and make yourself look good in the process. How does that question help you sort spy there?

[insomnia]

Why does someone need to have more posts in order for other people to have a justified meaning for switching their read on someone? Re-evaluation is a thing. Nobody really had a stance on you, to be honest. You just felt like you were town read because the attention was off. I bet that nobody even mentioned you. Yesterday, I said that if flips is gonna flip green, we should evaluate in you - ds - dawoodle. Which is exactly what I've done, BECAUSE I was not paying attention to you and cleared you early on and then never considered you.

I never once said re-evaluation was a thing. I was just confused about how I turned into public enemy number one without making any posts to defend myself from accusations.

Lol, what is this post

"Next time announce me first before laying your accusation on me, perhaps with a PM or something"

[insomnia]

I think you should address the thing that you're actually getting scum read for, which is how you handled the spy slot.

What more needs to be addressed? On Day 1, I was not a fan of Ima’s play,

as their questioning looked like something that scum would use to pin a townie as being scum, which wouldn’t give dsjstr any outs.

I like the content that Luca was posting, but I felt sick about a dsjstr lynch based on Ima.

So, I thought that Ima and dsjstr were potentially a scumteam, and Ima was attempting to bus dsjstr early on to get town points.

However, at the end of the day when dsjstr WASN’T the lynch, I decided that maybe Ima was just tunneling on dsjstr temporarily out of passion, so I realized that I would need to take a step back from Ima as well because I, too, was tunneling. Ima is not townie cleared for me yet, but I realized that I was actually the hypocrite for staying on Ima for tunneling.

Apart from the bolded being exact opposites, why didn't you consider the possibility of Ima just tunneling dsjstr in the first place? Did you not like ima's question? I thought it was fairly reasonable, dsjstr was at page 8 or something sitting on a wagon for reasoning from page 2 without stating opinions of his own. Do you think that's scummy?

[insomnia]

Ima tunneling dsjtstr as town * is what i meant.

[insomnia]

Hold on, you're saying that just because dsjstr wasn't lynched, the possibility of imaspy bussing is discredited???

ok, I'm relieved, I thought i was wrong on you for a second there.

[insomnia]

VOTE: Poyzin

[insomnia]

I noticed Insomnia has started misreading other peoples reads.

Where did I misread people's reads?

[insomnia]

Apart from the bolded being exact opposites

You see, I don’t believe these to be exact opposites, and I will tell you why. For all tenses and purposes, let’s consider dsjstr and Ima to be a scum team. Now, if a wagon starts to form on dsjstr, which it did, Ima would naturally take advantage of it and create a line of questioning towards dsjstr to show that Ima is town and dsjstr is scum, when they would both hypothetically be scum here. I was just suspicious of Ima from this, because the questions were definitely loaded as far as I recall, and even when dsjstr defended himself, Ima wouldn’t let go of his scum read on dsjstr because the whole point of the questioning was to make Ima look townie by scumreading his mafia partner. Does this make any sense?

The giant leap here is the fact that he'd take advantage of the situation. When spy voted dsjstr, he was only at one vote, and that was you voting for him.

There IS no situation to take advantage of

, and it's not a bus, because he wasn't being pushed. And that vote was your vote from RVS that people piled on. What situation did he take advantage off if dsjstr wasn't even a point of contention?

Apart from the bolded being exact opposites

Now, if a wagon starts to form on dsjstr, which it did, Ima would naturally take advantage of it and create a line of questioning towards dsjstr to show that Ima is town and dsjstr is scum, when they would both hypothetically be scum here.

A wagon wasn't formed. It was formed AFTER ima said those stuff.

I was just suspicious of Ima from this, because the questions were definitely loaded as far as I recall, and even when dsjstr defended himself, Ima wouldn’t let go of his scum read on dsjstr because the whole point of the questioning was to make Ima look townie by scumreading his mafia partner.

The question wasn't loaded, the manner in which it was presented was aggressive.

[insomnia]

More meta theory inc. Poyzin was prodded and never responded in thread. Make assumptions with that as you will.

That's a loaded question that doesn't help poyzin serve towards figuring spy, it just helps him look good in the process. Because there's no way there's an explanation behind spy's perception of an angle shoot. It was tied to his belief that Poyzin was scum, it doesn't constitute a reason for scum reading him, necessarily.

The quotes posts was me saying that the act of me getting prodded is non sequitur and doesn’t put me in either alignment.

Exactly my point, you just make him look bad, and make yourself look good in the process. How does that question help you sort spy there?

I don’t want to make ANYBODY look bad. Why are you attempting to villainize me based on false interpretations? I was confused why Ima would ask for people to make assumptions about me being prodded, so made a post asking why it matters. Then, YOU make a post about “why does it matter why it matters?” Why would you try to flip the bill that I’m scum when you literally did the same thing? That question helps me sort just as much as your question helps you sort! Please, I ask of you to stop your hypocrisy for the sole reason of justifying your narrative that I’m scum. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: I’m fine with you being suspicious of me. But when you try to spin the script by accusing me of being scum through the use of the same type of questioning that you first labeled as scummy, I do take issue with this, and leads me to believe that you may have malicious intent behind your posts.

why do you think I'm town?

[insomnia]

I haven't reviewed him yet. When I will, I am going to convey it. I don't wanna rush the process.

[insomnia]

Sadly, I don’t think that’s really indicative of ds’s alignment. There’s other stuff going for him tho.

[insomnia]

Iconeum, if ds’s town, who’s the scum team?

[insomnia]

So, here's how things stand from my PoV.

Poyzin is a lock. If this dude is town, then this game is absolutely lost and I'm completely wrong on all of my reads. I actually believe he's town and that's where we have the highest chance of flipping red.

Now, I know that my word can't be taken for granted, because I already mislynched a town. However, I ask of you to at least read my post where I present my evidence and directly comment on it. Please don't ignore it. I feel like, it's literally Poyzin as scum in every single world here.

I feel like his flip breaks open the game. If he flips red, I'm not really sure what that indicates. Currently, I'm having a tinfoil on TSE - Poyzin team. If that's the team, hell, they've been set pretty much from the start. Lucca literally had to come in and just put the win in the bag. He had analysis to make, BS was gone for the entirety of Day 1. They have no interactions between each other, not even right now.

That would also mean that the lynch on Billy was an all-town wagon, which is fucking insane. That's really unlucky for town, it's rare that all town vote to get a town out without scum interfering in some way. but can definitely see it happening.

In this case, Poyzin literally had to be off-wagon and his buddy would've been afk for the most part. It's the perfect snowball to an easy win.

If that's the scum team, then it could explain a whole lot. I've been feeling bad about every damn solve.

It would explain why I didn't die over Luca there. I'm more vocal and pushed the first mislynch, I think scum thought I'd come out guns blazing on dawoodle the next day.

It will be really hard to turn this around and make town vote with me and just unite them all, but I think if we can pull off this Poyzin lynch and focus on the right direction, we can regain thread control and we won't stop eating ourselves like cannibals.

I'll try by addressing each and everyone of your concerns regarding other slots as well.

[insomnia]

I actually believe he's scum* , obviously. not town.

[insomnia]

I'm feeling really fucking uneasy about TSE's push on Iconeum here. I find his reasoning to be too shallow in order to present such conviction. I feel like he literally ISO'd him and pulled out the easiest posts to accuse and that's it, bam. Easy vote.

And I feel like he'd only do that if he wanted to split votes and deflect attention from Poyzin, tbh... They need Poyzin alive, because, if TSE and Poyzin are alive, they literally have to make us mislynch in dawoodle - dsjstr - iconeum

Kill probably me.

And then go into the next day letting spy and dsjstr / iconeum and dawoodle go at each other. Lynching Iconeum here makes the most sense from TSE - poyzin scum PoV, because, they kill a good town, they kill me in the night and then you guys just eat each other (spy and djstr)

[insomnia]

Like, if you guys have any strong reasoning for clearing Poyzin here, feel free to tell me the reasoning, but I don't like that we deflect from the only scum that is somehow locked at the moment.

Iconeum, how strong are you on dsjstr?

[insomnia]

I mean, Iconeum defending djstr here makes no sense for him. Literally no sense. Think about it, he's literal lynchbait. Iconeum knows my meta (i think ?) and knows how tunnely I can be. He literally lets me wipe dsjstr out of the thread here if he's scum.

He'd only afford a push like that if he had more mislynch options, which he doesn't.

Iconeum, if you're the cop, you coming out right now saves us the game, tbh. If you have a hard clear on dsjstr, just out it. If you don't, your claim will be cc'ed tomorrow.

If you clear dsjstr for me here, it confirms my theory on TSE - Poyzin. We will have a town block of Iconeum - dsjstr - spy - me and a PoE of TSE / Poyzin / dawoodle , they will literally be mechanically locked. That's a literal game solve that they can't break out of.

[insomnia]

Like, literally, if the cop is either someone of dsjstr / poyzin / dawoodle, just come out with your clear, if your clear is in the pool of dsjstr / poyzin / dawoodle / TSE

If we mislynch, there's always the chance you will die at night / you get cc'd tomorrow, in LyLo. Just come out now.

[insomnia]

I'm feeling really fucking uneasy about TSE's push on Iconeum here. I find his reasoning to be too shallow in order to present such conviction. I feel like he literally ISO'd him and pulled out the easiest posts to accuse and that's it, bam. Easy vote.

And I feel like he'd only do that if he wanted to split votes and deflect attention from Poyzin, tbh... They need Poyzin alive, because, if TSE and Poyzin are alive, they literally have to make us mislynch in dawoodle - dsjstr - iconeum

Kill probably me.

And then go into the next day letting spy and dsjstr / iconeum and dawoodle go at each other. Lynching Iconeum here makes the most sense from TSE - poyzin scum PoV, because, they kill a good town, they kill me in the night and then you guys just eat each other (spy and djstr)

What has poyzin done this game?

He has defended himself, voted and sussed me, and defended dsjstr(the 1 person sussing dsjstr).

Are you saying poyzin come out of no where without me sussing him to defend dsjstr against me in Hope's we lynched dsjstr and he flips green to further himself as town?

Ding ding ding. He defends dsjstr, lynches you, then uses your reasoning to push dsjstr. Also, he explicitly said "Don't say i'm defending dsjstr here". So he wasn't even town reading him. He actually thought you're both scum.

Read my comments on him, please. A town doesn't just respond to questioning and doesn't solve the people pushing him. Not once has he called me scum, but he's treating me like I'm town. He's not taking the extra townie step of world building around him, he just wants to escape the lynch.

[insomnia]

Spy, that push literally doesn't mean anything to a scum him. If the team is him and TSE, he doesn't even need an agenda, he has to push somewhere for some reason while we focus our attention elsewhere. He literally has to hide, but hide by actually posting, unlike Blatant. If you get what I mean.

Usually, a scum player would be on wagons and stuff, participate, engage in the thread, etc etc, and the other would split push. Unless, a scum player is already gone for the whole day phase, at which point, there is NO POINT in engaging the hot topics of the thread. He's not scared because he can't spew anyone if his partner is afk.

He just lets town eat each other off (which we have ; me - dawoodle , me - billy, dsjstr - you , iconeum - luca) and he's hidden.

A wagon would typically have at least one scum, but in this scenario, POYZIN HAS THE PERFECT SETUP FOR NOT BEING ON THE WAGON. It's logical.

And, riddle me this...If he's scum and he had to fake his push on you (which he did) and be out of the spotlight (which he was), what do you think he does the very next day?

Exactly this :

In my hiatus, I had time to look over some game stuffs, but I will stay brief. Insomnia is still my highest town read.

I’m less inclined to believe that Ima is scum, but they haven’t done anything that looks particularity good, and all of their content could reasonably be faked.

This, is what we call in mafia, distancing. He's distancing from you with that post. Basically says "I town read the guy, but if I was ever pushed to defend this read / be forced to push someone, this would be the slot"

Because he already pushed you. He lit the flames. He made his content for Day 1. But this? This is where he lets town eat each other off and looks for someone else.

[insomnia]

He basically put the coal in the fire pit. The fire went out, and when he feels it is necessary, he'll relight the flames again.

[insomnia]

That post is literally saying "I still have reasons to scum read him, but let's town read him, just because"

if he re-evaluated, which he didn't (because he didn't mention any new reads) then I'd expect that type of distancing if he found something worse than you. But he literally didn't.

This is so glaring to me that it honestly hurts that I can't make you also see it.

[insomnia]

Dsjstr's posting makes no sense as scum here, though. He'd just bus Poyzin. Not self-vote. It virtually achieves nothing. It just confirms my theory, that's not how scum partners protect each other.

I'm waiting for that cop claim out of Iconeum, if I'm right, then we win the game through auto.

[insomnia]

ICONEUM, if you are cop with a clear on dsjstr, come out right now, because it's an auto if you do so.

[insomnia]

Spy, each player is very different. This is dsjstr's first game. If I scum read people for not solving, I'd be losing the game almost all the time. It's about trying to see how a player would think, and try to see if there's enough townie reasoning for them. The core of every good read is TMI (too much information). Scum are the informed minority, town are the uninformed majority. That's the key difference. Try applying this in each and every one of your reads. See if someone town reads someone else for bad / lazy reasoning -> that could mean that they're TMIng them (clearing them based on the information that they're town, not because the sum of the things they've done is townie). Vice versa, if someone is scum reading someone else for shallow reasoning, those are scum that have the information they're pushing a town and don't need much thought, just to sound really convincing / find some hypocrisy, something that can easily be distorted in order to further an agenda.

I'll give an example, from other games I had and this specific game, so maybe I can make you understand better about what I mean by making a direct comparison.

re : I lied, I can't find anything concrete because I mostly post fluff and the actual deduction goes inside my head and when I often push, it isn't anything solid with examples. I will still look for something though, I am surely gonna find it.

Just read back my case on Poyzin, that's pure TMI analysis. You can start by asking yourself the question "If I were in Poyzin's shoes there, and I didn't know anyone's alignment, would I react like that to myself voting and then revoting and using that as a reasoning for a scum read?"

try to use that template for anyone, I will try and use it on other people in this game, mainly on Billy / flippy.

[insomnia]

One of the most solid scum tells is this "Scum look for things that look scummy, whereas, town look for things that are more likely to make someone flip scum". Really subtle distinction here, but it's a key concept that will always work. Don't get me wrong, tells on this site and in general, tells are never really a thing, because everyone is different, but this, this is a tell that relies on fundamental mentalities, which IS (most of the time, if not all times if applied correctly) a GREAT tell. And it can be called a tell because it actually works.

So, here's what I mean with this :

I’m sorry that I don’t have all of the relevant quotes, but you asked dsjstr to defend himself, and then after he does, you decide it isn’t sufficient so you revote. Why would you unvote if you only planned on putting your vote back into dsjstr?

Do you see this? THIS is that case where "Scum look for things that look scummy". This, at surface level, is scummy. But, in reality, this is such a stupid thing to scum hunt for that it can only really come from scum. How many times did you, me, everyone ever vote and revote someone?

I don't believe that Poyzin actually believes his reasoning for scum reading you here being literally this. It just can't be.

Now, if you thought this looked goofy, imagine the fact that he actually went with this reasoning and ultimately decided to push your lynch in the next 300 posts with this. He literally used this to maintain his vote on you for the whole day. He didn't see anything better than "vote and revote" as a scum tell in something like 20 pages.

[insomnia]

Not that I find it helpful for anything, because I would've still made that point regardless of experience, but :

To answer your other question, I have played forum mafia for approximately a year and a quarter thus far, and I played in real life before that.

@Spy

[insomnia]

Experience, doesn't, matter. No matter if you're a veteran with 5 years of experience, or a newbie, this will always be a good method of catching scum. TMI. Look for TMI, look for TMI on reads, look for TMI on mehanical setups, look for it everywhere.

Be aware of the key aspect here "Town are uninformed. Scum are informed" . This is what it's founded on, the game of mafia. Never miss that aspect.

[insomnia]

I mean that's fine and i seen that, but why say this is dsjstrs first game?

I am not aware of dsjstr's experience and I honestly don't really care, town is town for me and scum is scum, they could have 200 games or 2 games, they will always slip somehow if they're mafia.

[insomnia]

Experience may make someone be better at hiding their TMI, but as they approach a later stage of the game, it will get harder and harder to hide it. I, personally, don't pay much to it though. I do respect veterans, obviously. I have learnt a lot and changed a lot, because I received tips and I looked for answers, in order to improve. But, experience alone doesn't make someone better, unless you use those years to improve and upgrade your knowledge on mafia.

I have almost an year if not already past it, and I am still really aggressive and erratic with my reads. I can't explain them like I wish I would. Experience doesn't just absolve your flaws, but it can make you focus on your strengths.

I know players that have been investing years in this game and still make bad reads and never change. It's because they play for pleasure. And that's alright, I actually really enjoy playing with those players. It's nice seeing some...fresh touch in mentality. There are forums where the toxicity is literally zero.

Bottom line, experience itself doesn't make you better. It does, naturally, but not by a large margin, unless you are truly interested in playing to win and learning from other players. Spectating games, etc. blah blah

[insomnia]

Tunneling is another thing that I have to work on, although I doubt I can ever change it unless people actually interact with me and stop me from tunneling to oblivion. It's really hard to control it. But, it's not a tunnel, for the simple reason that I didn't come in the thread with the intention of scum reading someone, I reached my point on Poyzin naturally, and it's a good case because it bases on TMI.

The case on dawoodle was also TMI, but I was set on scum reading him for whatever he said afterwards, so that was a tunnel. In here, I'm not doing that.

I actually switched between dsjstr and TSE a lot in my head, but my experience guts tells me dsjstr and poyzin make no sense here. TSE and Poyzin make a lot more sense though.

[insomnia]

And you know why Poyzin and djstrs makes no sense? Because he used him to push you. Scum would never defend a partner in order to find a reasoning for voting someone.

He used him to push you. If they were partners, he would've pushed someone else instead, without using his partner. He TMI'd djstrs town in order to push you, lol. He didn't have a town read on djstrs, but he still pushed you for pushing djstrs.

[insomnia]

Like, just try to imagine inside your head. Let's say you are scum!Poyzin (Poyzin that's scum). Try and

actually

think if you'd ever push someone for pushing your partner, and at the same time, say this :

Don't say that I'm defending dsjstr; I'm not. I'm just trying to find flaws in the argument for dsjstr. There is a large difference, as the former implies that he's a townread for me; he's not.

Again, imagine you are scum!Poyzin partnered with scum!dsjstr here. Would you ever make a comment like this, knowing that he'd eventually flip red and people, when looking for re-evaluations, will see this in your ISO?

Great exercise and food for thought. Try and always use this template for posts : "If I were in x shoes and I'd not know anyone's alignment, is this something I'd think?"

[insomnia]

This is exactly why im saying you are overconfident in your abilities.

Spy, you've been on djstr for two dayphases without reconsidering at all. You're falling victim to the thing you're accusing me for. Tunneling. Try and take a breath, step back, and then try and read my posts. But like, actually read them. As in, take in the information and use it for yourself.

I may be tunnely, I may be wrong from time to time, but I still do catch scum and know how to hunt them. It isn't bad if you'd listen to someone else's advice. Listen, apply, and if you disagree / don't get it, then drop it, but at least try.

[insomnia]

You're just antagonising me without actually considering dsjstr's alignment here. This is the most important thing.

[insomnia]

Ok, assuming you're actually willing to debate it and not just never change your stance at all, I will answer why I disagree.

What you're claiming is that Poyzin had a plan, starting from Day 1, to never let his scum partner die. That's surreal. Nobody ever does that, they evaluate based on situations.

He wouldn't need to defend dsjstr here, because he literally had only one vote, and that was you, at the time Poyzin made that push on you. Nobody was paying attention to dsjstr and we were all town reading him.

[insomnia]

My point is, you're saying Poyzin had the confidence to say from the start "Man I'm never lynching you, so I'll just defend you if you get pushed". He had confidence in his abilities to fool the whole town for at least 3 day phases, which is like a month or something crazy like that. That's just never a point. He would've much more likely bussed him if he wanted the credit. Defending him, if he's scum partner, doesn't help him at all. If one of them dies, the other dies instantly.

And you're telling me, Poyzin, walking in, knowing that doing that kills them both if one dies, decided "yeah, fuck it, we'll win with this"?

[insomnia]

I’m not reading dsjtrs for his attempt at sorting people. You are taking your preconceived idea of what a town would do and applying it as a metric for reading dsjstr, and this is something I fundamentally disagree with.

[insomnia]

I see what you’re getting at.

Except that you think it was scum defending a scum partner, I think it was scum trying to pre-emptively defend himself against something that he realized would make him look scummy, when his whole point was to accuse you.

To simplify it, you are saying that he voted you as a result of him defending his partner.

I am saying that he defended him IN ORDER to vote for you.

The whole point was that he was trying to push you, and in doing so, he ended up in an indirect defense.

[insomnia]

Oh I had a mix up of how the whole thing went down. I thought he was saying that pre-emptively.

Lemme re-read it all

[insomnia]

Yeah so I still think Poyzin’s not scum with dsjstr despite being corrected on my assumption.

My mental map of how scum!Poyzin would attempt to defend a partner doesn’t match what he’s done during that interaction.

[insomnia]

He doesn’t engage with djstr right after he posts the indirect defense if he’s planning to defend him, the defense would be much more distance-y

I just think we’re wasting time with this, really.

I’ll re-analyse it all but TSE - Poyzin makes most sense to me atm.

[insomnia]

Whatever, if there’s a cop he’ll either come out tomorrow with the result on dsjstr or he’ll do it today if he has it.

AGAIN, IF COP HAS A CLEAR IN TSE / DSJSTR / POYZIN YOU NEED TO COME OUT RIGHT NOW, AS IT’S AN AUTO WIN

[insomnia]

Why would the cop have check dsjstr. We are the only 2 people

alive

that has even said dsjstr is scummy(which you didnt agree with day 1). And now that you are saying he is not scummy the only people left to check dsjstr tonight would be if you or i are cop.

This is a huge assumption but I literally said at EoD1 that

We should sort in dsjstr / poyzin / dawoodle

Assuming cop used this poe, it’s a 66% chance he chose one of the people we actually have scum reads for.

[insomnia]

I just a 300 post span in which he did not change his mind on you. He only instead voted the other person he was scumreading.

Can you go through Luca's iso and find 1 post that he shows changing his mind about you being scum.

How’s that indicative of dsjstr’s alignment?

[insomnia]

If poyzin flips green then what do we get out of all of this?

He doesn’t.

[insomnia]

You did say “Go through Luca’s posts and show me one post where he changes his mind of you”