Newbie 1449: Return of the Van [Game Over!]

[Trisania]

Hi there. I'll make it quick, since I have to sleep soon:

I won't vote until at least page three, so I'd have enough basis for reads. I'd prefer a no lynch on D1, so as to avoid a mislynch; however, it would grant the mafia an advantage for killing us at night. So it's better to guess a lynch and probably lynch scum, than be killed off one by one by them.

On a side note, I live in a different time zone, so I apologize if I couldn't respond immediately.

[Trisania]

@Zipper Isn't it obvious? Joining date by no means determines one's value.
I'm not going for an "easy" target, I'm going for the first target I recognized, which is by the way the same thing you did and this is the right thing to do.
@thiscantgowrong
Sheep me more. Also, buddying with Zipper will help you a lot...not.

@Trisania you don't help a lot by stating the obvious.

Sorry, I'm a super newbie.

Anyway, so far no one has said anything highly suspicious, so I don't want to judge people too soon.

[Trisania]

Still I'd prefer you picked a vote. You don't need solid reads yet, RVS contains the word "random" for a reason. You don't acquire more information by not voting.
You mentioned that "you live in a different time zone". Different from whom? Aren't we all living in various timezones?

My timezone is GMT +8, like in Asia. I assume you guys live around America?

VOTE: thiscantgowrong
Based on how others view him and on reviewing his posts, he does seem eager to sow chaos. I also didn't like his suggestion of actually not voting yet but merely posting the people we suspect, since it implies fear of having everyone stand by their suspicions. We can always unvote someone, so it's not necessary to not write the names in bold.

@Grimgrove:
I guess it can't be helped that you find me suspicious. I'm not that good at expressing my thoughts.

[Trisania]

VOTE: thiscantgowrong
Based on how others view him and on reviewing his posts, he does seem eager to sow chaos. I also didn't like his suggestion of actually not voting yet but merely posting the people we suspect, since it implies fear of having everyone stand by their suspicions. We can always unvote someone, so it's not necessary to not write the names in bold.

Wait a minute...the person who didn't want to vote until the third page finds another person who initially didn't want to start voting also suspicious? And sow chaos? More like start discussion.

Haha, it may be hard to believe, but my reason is that I realized that this thread might start having more pages for me to read the next time I log on. I'm extremely lazy, so I didn't want to have to read through all those pages. Don't worry, I'll change my vote once I have evidence to the contrary. This is just my initial vote; this is still subject to change.

[Trisania]

Oh, sorry for the double post, but I'll be V/LA from 11/14 to 11/16. I'm posting this in advance in case I forget to. But I'll still try getting online during those days.

[Trisania]

@Trisiana: Whenever you put someone at L-1 (where someone only needs one more vote on them before getting lynched, ALWAYS state it)

Could you please elaborate? I don't think I understand what you meant. I'm not familiar with all the rules... but I'll look it up.

[Trisania]

@Trisania try not to play the newbie card too often, it can have the opposite effect of desired.
Basically if you see that you're second to last person voting on somebody, always tell us about it so somebody doesn't accidentally hammer (hammering means placing the last vote that effects in lynching a person). You should take a look at the mafiascum wiki, it contains popular strategies, rules as well as vocabulary used in the game.

Okay, noted.

But trust me, it never crossed my mind to "play the newbie card". It's just that the rule wasn't familiar to me, since I haven't read everything in the wiki. But ok, I'll do just that the next time I play. Sorry for my ignorance. I guess even an innocent question is viewed with suspicion around here. Guess that's how the game works.

And thanks for the tip.

[Trisania]

I guess it can't be helped that you find me suspicious. I'm not that good at expressing my thoughts.

Why do you think my suspicions on you have to do with you not being good at expressing your thoughts? Post 15 looks perfectly fine in that regard, I have the feeling you expressed your thoughts they way you wanted them to be expressed.

What are the difficulties you encounter when trying to express your thoughts in this game? Lie down on the sofa, close your eyes, think of the ocean, and tell me.

Difficulties in a way that the simple things I say are interpreted as something else. But I understand that it's part of the game.

...your second paragraph sounds a lot like a Doctor. I don't know if you're already claiming that role or you were merely being friendly.

[Trisania]

I guess it can't be helped that you find me suspicious. I'm not that good at expressing my thoughts.

Why do you think my suspicions on you have to do with you not being good at expressing your thoughts? Post 15 looks perfectly fine in that regard, I have the feeling you expressed your thoughts they way you wanted them to be expressed.

What are the difficulties you encounter when trying to express your thoughts in this game? Lie down on the sofa, close your eyes, think of the ocean, and tell me.

Difficulties in a way that the simple things I say are interpreted as something else. But I understand that it's part of the game.

...your second paragraph sounds a lot like a Doctor. I don't know if you're already claiming that role or you were merely being friendly.

Interesting focus. Do you think it would be a good idea for the doctor to already claim?

No, because it would make him the target of the mafia since he's the town's asset. You're probably just trying to lure him out. But that's making you look suspicious.

[Trisania]

^ Psychiatrists are still doctors. And it was capitalized to denote the role in the game.

[Trisania]

@thiscantgowrong

You speak of humility, which was what made you place a vote and go with the wisdom of the board after all. Why didn't you show said humility after GuyInFreezer, the IC, specifically said in his first post that lynching on Day 1 is a must?

Hold up! I was NOT against a lynch on day one! Re-read my first post. I was against official voting that might lead to an accidental hammer. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Your reaction just now seems so innocent and indignant that I'm almost inclined to believe you're a townie.

[Trisania]

^Actually, I doubt Grimsgroove is mafia, since he did that shrink act which sort of implied he is Doc. However, that would be unlikely because claiming that role this early is suicidal and just asking the mafia to kill him. He can't also be mafia claiming doctor, because it's also too early for them to be doing that, since it would only cast suspicion upon him. Therefore, he is likely to be just a VT.

[Trisania]

I just remembered:

...Trisania's actions say "new scum" to me. She has enough posts to be active and not targeted for being too quiet, but she's also been a bit sudden at changing her mind on strategy with weak explanations for doing so.

...ouch. @thiscantgowrong,

[Trisania]

...to continue my unfinished-but-already-submitted-post, @thiscantgowrong, please cite instances wherein I kept changing my mind but only provided weak explanations, for I'll gladly elaborate things for you.

[Trisania]

Wagon, wagon! Free ride on a wagon!

[Trisania]

I'm wondering... based on your experience, how do you "tell" if a person is mafia or town?

(This is addressed to everyone)

[Trisania]

Since you want citations Tri, back at post 15 you said:

I won't vote until at least page three, so I'd have enough basis for reads.

Then at post 26 (on the top of the second page) you voted for me. Your explanation comes in post 28.

Haha, it may be hard to believe, but my reason is that I realized that this thread might start having more pages for me to read the next time I log on. I'm extremely lazy, so I didn't want to have to read through all those pages.

You're right it is hard to believe especially given how well you've kept up so far.

You're right, I HAVE been keeping up so far, because it was a weekend a couple of days ago, and I'm not that busy with work yet. I can't predict when I'll be unavailable. I had thought that people would be filling this thread with walls, but apparently, things are going slow. I hate having to catch up and read a lot of stuff.

[Trisania]

@thiscantgowrong:

Anyway, I'll unvote you eventually, I'm just waiting for that one thing that will tell me you're town.

[Trisania]

@thiscantgowrong:

Anyway, I'll unvote you eventually, I'm just waiting for that one thing that will tell me you're town.

What?

Why would you say that as town?

I have a gut feel he's town. However, since it's just a gut feel, I need proof of his innocence. If I can't see any, then my vote stays.

[Trisania]

^Not sure what it means, but it shows you all the posts of an individual player in that thread. So maybe it means "isolate"?

[Trisania]

@GiF:
Yeah, sorry I overlooked your first post. I've been reading the wiki since then, though.

Hmm. If I unintentionally fished for the Doc role, at least it was mitigated by the fact that I think Grim ISN'T the doctor.

@zipper:
Oh, wow. Okay, if I can't convince you, then no one will.

[Trisania]

I have a gut feel he's town. However, since it's just a gut feel, I need proof of his innocence. If I can't see any, then my vote stays.

If you're looking for absolute proof in a mafia game...you're really playing the wrong game. Short of a cop declaring me innocent (since there are no godfathers) which can't happen until night. Demanding that level of certainty in the first day is more than a bit problematic.

Did I say "absolute"? I only said I was waiting for proof, a "tell" to tell me you're town.

[Trisania]

But TNE posted yesterday.

And I read Montosh requested to be replaced. Does that mean the deadline will be extended?

[Trisania]

Hmm. If I unintentionally fished for the Doc role, at least it was mitigated by the fact that I think Grim ISN'T the doctor.

These kind of thoughts are best kept to yourself as they don't help town in any way. Role speculation on town is scum's job and there's no need to help them with it.

I am getting quite a strong townread from you though, because I think as scum you would actually be more careful with sharing these thoughts. Don't make it a habit though, it's very rare that anti-town behavior earns you a townread.

Sorry, it won't happen again.

On gut feels:
Cervantes - leaning scum. I'll read his ISO to check.
Montosh - null? He was sort of leaning scum, but he blasted thiscantgowrong with a wall so now I'm not sure.
WBO - town. He seems nice. :/
zipper - null. I have yet to read his ISO.
You - town.
TNE - null. Same as zipper.
GiF - town. But damn, I

stalked

read his 1339 game as scum, and he is good! So we should be cautious.

These are just gut feels, so don't burn me at the stake for this. I'll read all your ISOs when I get home, since it's annoying to read and post walls using my phone.

[Trisania]

Hmm. If I unintentionally fished for the Doc role, at least it was mitigated by the fact that I think Grim ISN'T the doctor.

These kind of thoughts are best kept to yourself as they don't help town in any way. Role speculation on town is scum's job and there's no need to help them with it.

I am getting quite a strong townread from you though, because I think as scum you would actually be more careful with sharing these thoughts. Don't make it a habit though, it's very rare that anti-town behavior earns you a townread.

Sorry, it won't happen again.

On gut feels:
Cervantes - leaning scum. I'll read his ISO to check.
Montosh - null? He was sort of leaning scum, but he blasted thiscantgowrong with a wall so now I'm not sure.
WBO - town. He seems nice. :/
zipper - null. I have yet to read his ISO.
You - town.
TNE - null. Same as zipper.
GiF - town. But damn, I

stalked

read his 1339 game as scum, and he is good! So we should be cautious.

These are just gut feels, so don't burn me at the stake for this. I'll read all your ISOs when I get home, since it's annoying to read and post walls using my phone.

Why do you vote thiscantgowrong, on whom you claim to have a gut townread (post 81, when you have other people who make a less favorable impression on you? (Cervantes most notably, but also the null-reads in your list).

Still reading ISOs. Wait.

[Trisania]

*sigh* It's hard to get a read on GiF. His posts are mostly IC mode, and berating me for my stupidity. His non-IC posts are generalized statements and can either lean to highly-experienced town or scheming scum. I still haven't gotten over the 1339 game, he impressed me so much that I'd probably NK'd or mislynched if I were in that game with him.

(He is so good it's scary)

Reading: Null.

Montosh barely posted, so there's not much to read from him. However, he asked thiscantgowrong twice for an explanation in his defense, which seems to be pro-town. (And I wanna correct myself. He didn't blast thiscant with a wall. A semi-wall, maybe?) Anyway, since he's about to be replaced, it wouldn't matter much what I read. Let's just hope his replacement is more active. For now, my read is: Leaning town.

Zipperflesh changed votes twice without giving much explanation on doing so. He saw thiscantgowrong as an easy target early in the game, which is weird considering we just started (and on RVS, at that) and we're supposed to be in the dark about people's roles, unless he is scum. Also, he voted for me just because he doesn't like my answer to his question. He could've at least stated why he finds it unacceptable. So, for me he is Leaning scum.

I think Cervantes is town. He doesn't post walls, but gave decent explanations whenever he was asked to clarify his opinions. Also, he encouraged me to vote, which is town-ish since even a mislynch is better than a no lynch. (Unless he is mafia trying tomappear town). Reading: Town.

*sigh* thiscantgowrong is, as much as it pains me to admit, he is town. The reason is that he boldly goes after other players (i.e. me), even though almost half the players think he is scum. He refuted my posts and even questioned them, which appears townish. But what I'm looking for from him is the townie's frustration at being the potential mislynch. Because if a person is innocent, he/she wouldn't go down without a fight. But whatever, his rebuttal on my posts constitutes a town action. I think. UNVOTE: thiscantgowrong. Don't disappoint me, townie.

Grimgroove asked

a lot of

questions, hinting that he wants to gather as much info as possible for his scumhunt. He also unvoted thiscantbewrong when he was already at L-1 instead of quick hammering him. This action screams town, because scum would notwant to stall the voting process. He did not take advantage of the opportunity to lynch.

TNE doesn't have substantial posts to go by, so I absolutely read him. *sob*. Reading: Null.

WBO is probably town. He gave decent reads on anyone, and even referenced a completed game on how GiF plays. Even if GiF is town for me for now, WBO gave me an excellent reference on how to read players. No scum would link a game on how to act town. Their secret would be exposed! Reading: Town.

[Trisania]

Also it's interesting to note that TCGW and Trisania has a trait in common that makes me townread them: transparency.

Thank goodness! I've been having a hard time always typing "thiscantgowrong". Ugh, from now on he'll be tcgw. Thanks, GiF!

[Trisania]

^Honest mistake, sorry. I forgot to edit my reading on you because I was so sleepy. I could barely think of a decent thing to say on the last three players. You're town, because based on that infamous 1339 game, you're more blatant in claiming town as scum. In this game, you're being vague and neutral. So you're more likely town than scum.

[Trisania]

So the hayatoBL thinks I'm scum. He's added to my list of admirers, lol. I'll read you after work.

[Trisania]

Uhm, TNE, it's "thiscantgowrong".

[Trisania]

Post50: Good lord, still talking about PR. Somebody needs to tell Trisania, we don’t do this. If this is a scum move trying to out the PR, it can’t get much more obvious than this.

[rant]The fuck, dude?! Yes, I keep making mistakes here because I don't fucking know everything. And yes, I'm playing the bloody newbie card because I AM new, and I do not know the proper execution of the rules here. I have read the wiki, but that does not immediately educate me about everything here.

Damn it, it's embarassing enough that I've been told off by an IC, so you guys don't need to rub it in. Fine, see me as scum, but heck, better that than be a Village Idiot, which I'm feeling better suits my idiocy so far.[/rant]

[Trisania]

Trisania
thiscantgowrong

Cervantes

HayatoBL

WBOCampfire1104

zipperflesh

Grimgroove

thenewearth

GuyInFreezer

And the colors mean...?

[Trisania]

2.) I didn't back down; I unvoted him because his arguments and defenses are leaning town.

[Trisania]

Post85: Me neither.

...buddying?

[Trisania]

^It's Trisania, ugh. I'm not voting because I'm still trying to decipher the intent on all the posts. And according to the Wiki, townhunting is just as important as scumhunting, since knowing your allies would enable you to deduce who the scum are. So for the moment, my priority is finding out who the other townies are. I have to reassess my reads because I have null reads. I need to reread everything and at least identify who the possible 7 townies are, so that the remaining 2 would come out as scum. Am I making sense here?

[Trisania]

^Why are you even saying that? I already posted my inital reads after reading all your ISOs. It was posted on page 6. Did you even see that? Because what you're saying is that I haven't done anything at all. I even answered your question on what my gut feels on the others were.

[Trisania]

You want a page-by-page opinion from me, like what hayato did? Fine, just you wait when I get on my laptop. I have to eat dinner first, though. Thinking too much starves me.

I'm not voting YET. Could you be patient? I don't plan on voting without a decent reason to back it up. I hard work earlier, so I could only post short messages. I just got home and I have yet to eat. BE EFFING PATIENT. You're triggering my PMS freak-out mode. Ugh.

[Trisania]

@Mod: Zipperflesh voted for me in Post #85, page 4

[Trisania]

I also want to request a prod for Cervantes. It's already three days since he last posted.

[Trisania]

@Zipper:
Wow, and you never considered that I blew up because it's annoying to be always reminded of your mistakes?

VOTE: zipperflesh

Because you annoy me and you're the only player leaning scum on my list. Also, you refuse to share you reason for wanting to sheep hayato, which is reminiscent of you changing your votes twice without proper reason.

[Trisania]

I'll answer your questions later.

I don't feel too cool today.

*cough* and prod dodge *cough*

I hope you're not affected by the typhoon.

[Trisania]

We're not really but heavy rain is heavy.

(Are you PH?! :O )

Yup. We're safe from typhoons, though.

[Trisania]

I'm starting to understand how people feel when they get voted: REALLY PISSED. I'm trying not to be a jerk and always countervote, but zipperflesh, you are on my list, as I checked our ISO and it's mostly meaningless remarks or votes without major explanation. I'll still read all the ISOs. It's not my fault my iPod broke down.

Finally! Someone who understands what I'm feeling. I thought I'm the only one who feels that way. *sob*

[Trisania]

...I think TNE's "I-don't-care" attitude implies he's either:
1. Scum that still feels safe because even if you think he's scum, you haven't identified yet who his partner is, so lack of links thereof would somehow prove his innocence,
2. He's town, so he wouldn't bother to explain his innocence, or3. He's in a bad mood because of stuff happening iRL.

[Trisania]

You can actually also check if their walls contain inconsistencies.

[Trisania]

@Trisania

You have made theories on TNE’s alignment. Which one do you think TNE belongs to? Scum or town?

...uhm... Town, for now. I'd feel bad if I vote for him again after I've unvoted him. I'll have to read into your walls to confirm that.

[Trisania]

@Trisania

You have made theories on TNE’s alignment. Which one do you think TNE belongs to? Scum or town?

...uhm... Town, for now. I'd feel bad if I vote for him again after I've unvoted him. I'll have to read into your walls to confirm that.

Just a note, don't feel bad about voting against me again after you unvoted. With new information people tend to change their minds, nothing wrong with that.

I don't think scum would say this.

[Trisania]

TNE, you're one vote away from being lynched. What is your defense?

[Trisania]

One more prod and he'll be replaced. I think. So it's also likely that he's just busy with real life for the game. But you're right; he could also be flying under the radar, since he could have also asked for a replacement if he really didn't have time for the game.

So I'll also VOTE: Cervantes

He was starting to lean scum for me, anyway.

Damn that zipperflesh, I really thought he was scum after that hammer.

[Trisania]

@hayato: My town read on him "yesterday" was more than real world days ago. It changed when he said this:

Was away from home last few days. Catching up atm.

He hasn't posted anything since then, even short comments on the wall posts. True, he could have been really busy. But as I said, he could have requested for a replacement days ago if that was the case.

I will revise my vote once I see someone else more scum read-worthy.

[Trisania]

Both votes on Cervantes today are very weird considering the motivations that precede them.

No reaction to this?
Last chance...

I already explained this in my response to hayato.

Also, let me tell you right now: Nobody Special lurks.
I guess his quest as an IC is to make people familiar with the concept of a lurker. Not perfectly sure how that is helpful, but that's what you'll be getting. His promise of catching up "in the late afternoon" and then dissappearing for a couple of days is perfectly normal behavior in his case and a null-tell. Good luck figuring that one out but when you find yourself at a loss of clear scumreads it's Always a good idea to put your vote behind his name.

You're right. I also noticed that GIF's posts don't contain anything significant enough to help us figure out what he thinks about people. His posts are mostly IC-related.

[Trisania]

In that case...

@Mod: Prod Cervantes please. Thanks.

[Trisania]

@hayato: Why am I scummy for you?

@Grim: Even if TNE's lynch would have been "inevitable", someone could've unvoted for him eventually if zipperflesh hadn't hammered. When he did that, I couldn't help but think it was a scummy move. But then he was killed and flipped town, so there goes my scum read.

[Trisania]

^a.) I didn't feel like voting because those were just initial reads and still subject to change. It was the first day, I think, so there was no need to rush the lynching.

b.) I don't think I was fence-sitting. TCGW for me was already town, and TNE didn't feel like scum to me. Zipperflesh was my scum vote. True, it was a counter-vote for his vote on me, but I stood by my decision regardless of the two more popular bandwagons. Why would I bother hammering someone I don't think is scum? His rudeness and I-don't-care attitude on his impending lynch convinced me of his innocence.

c.) I object. True, I have fluff posts, but they're not that many. I hate posting walls; I'm too lazy. And walls of posts don't necessarily mean you're town, anyway. Scum can also post walls to appear innocent and interested in scum-hunting.

[Trisania]

^Regarding your previous game where you hinted at being PR:

I couldn't even tell you were already crumbing. And the so-called "soft claim" you did in this game is way too obvious to be your style of crumbing. So you're obviously not the doctor.

[Trisania]

UNVOTE: Cervantes

Because he is getting replaced, which obviously explains that his inactivity is due to real-life concerns, and not because of trying to stay under the radar as scum. I also want to see how his replacement plays and observe how he interacts with us before scum-reading him.

Which brings me to the next person that I'm suspecting: GIF/Nobody Special. No offense to NS, but your predecessor's post didn't contribute much to scum-hunting. His posts were mostly IC-related. Though I was at first shifting from Null to Town reads on him, I somehow ended up suspecting him instead, because the contents/weight of his posts haven't changed even until his last post as player. And when you came to replace him, you just lurked and didn't give much opinions on anyone except Grim, who for me is town.

So I'd like your reads on everyone, so I'd get an idea on your view on this game.

[Trisania]

@hayato:
a) What's wrong with not voting sooner? I wasn't in much of a hurry, and I just wanted to post my opinion on other people. Of course the reads are subject to change: the longer the day drags on, the more a person's posts indicate his/her alignment. I changed my initial vote on TCGW because he gave justifications on his innocence. He was able to defend himself despite having a lot of voters. This made him townier than ZF, who didn't post much except sheep a wagon and hammer TNE. If he had defended himself, I would have changed my vote. I don't fear making enemies; I wouldn't have given the OMGUS vote on ZF if I feared attention.

b) No, I wasn't inconsistent. You asked me what I think his alignment was, and I said he might be town, though I didn't stress on it. And it was reinforced by the fact that he was consistent on being rude and uncaring on his impending death.

c) It made me think Cervantes was merely lurking after he posted that.

[Trisania]

^That's quite a shallow and scummy reason, the same way you find my reason for voting Cervantes as scummy.

If it helps you understand my PoV, this was how I analyzed Cervantes:
Was inactive = probably busy iRL
Showed up and posted that post = ok, prod dodge. He'll probably post some reads soon
Didn't post anything anymore = someone (Grim, I think) commented Cervantes was lurking

The comment made sense, and since lurking is more or less a scumtell, and since he hadn't made significant posts as if trying to go under the radar, I considered him scum.

And I unvoted him to give his replacement a chance to prove himself town.

I can't help but feel you're tunneling me, hayato.

[Trisania]

^No, more like he's almost town, but not quite, so I'm waiting for something to prove it.

[Trisania]

@hayato:

1. A person can still participate in discussions without voting first. It is better that way than voting early on and appear very inconsistent due to constantly changing votes. People will see you as scum that way regardless of your alignment. I did just that in an informal mafia game at another site, and I personally felt incompetent because I couldn't decide on a vote.

2. My initial assessment on TNE was leaning town anyway, so I see no reason for you to make a big deal out of it and see it as scummy.


I can't help but feel you're buddying Grim, the same way you're tunneling me.

@fferyllt:

On TCGW being town: It's more along the lines of: "I'll change my vote if I can later on see you're town."

As the day dragged on and he posted decent defense on his side, I thought maybe he IS town, but he hasn't displayed the usual frustration of a townie facing a lynch, so I have to wait for that before unvoting him.

On Dr. crumbing: It was an honest mistake. I got stupidly excited at first when I thought Grim was hinting at being the doctor. I didn't know it was rolefishing (and anti-town).

At my rant: English is not my native language.

[Trisania]

^I would have to say GIF/NS, because of GIF'S IC-related posts. (I agree with your observation on that, and I've previously expressed it as well)

Hayato is a scum read for me too, because he seems to be blatantly buddying Grim while tunneling me.

[Trisania]

^But WBO's latest post is weird and off the mark, and doesn't really respond to your scum read on him, so I'm giving him my FoS.

[Trisania]

^True. If I were scum, I wouldn't kill zipperflesh either.

On that note...
@WBO:
I get it now. Scum probably killed him to make YOU, the person zipperflesh voted for, as a guilty party. But that's just my theory. It's more likely scum are among those who went along the TNE wagon.

[Trisania]

2. And WDO

could

be scum who killed him. I feel like you are excluding possibilities in this post. The facts we have in hand don't really support those exclusions - they should still be on the table.

I know. I would have to reread everyone's ISOs for that. I reread TNE's last night, because I can't help but wonder why he's so determined to lynch tcgw on D1. He doesn't explain it much, except summarizing tcgw's walls as "I'm not scum because... So I'm probably town."

I also couldn't get the wagon on him. He was mostly rude, which is quite suspicious, true. But scum being rude on D1 AND about to be lynched? That's town tell for me. As town, he won't have anything to lose except his own life. It is little loss on town's part if a townie dies on D1. But it would put scum as a major disadvantage. So it's quite disappointing why no one has considered his reactions given the circumstances. It was like his lynch was rushed. That's why my focus for now on who the scum are lies on TNE's wagon.

I'll read the other ISO's waaaaay later in the day.

[Trisania]

Why do you think scum are more likely to be rude than town?

Defense mechanism. Just that. But it's only a tiny scum tell. It is more likely that a townie who's about to be lynched would AoE dramatically or give some really smart retort.

Which supports my earlier theory TNE is town. On hindsight, I should have spoken up and asked his voters to reconsider. Scum wouldn't be suicidal on D1.

[Trisania]

I see. In his case, considering his flip, TNE was acting like town. Tell me, if you were already playing on D1, would you lynch him?

And if you were scum, what would have been your stand and who would you have NKd?

[Trisania]

^Originally addressed to ffe. You can also answer, NS, if you want.

[Trisania]

[Sorry, pressed submit mid-type. And that post was explainig Nobody Special, btw.]
), and I was way too hard-hitting for any remnants of a team. He also thinks fferylit - well, he hopes - he's town because he doesn't understand him. Everyone else is null. My thoughts of Nobody Special are definitely scum-leaning,

but GiF acted nothing like his scum role in 1339. (Ask Tris.)

So, this is for everyone; When voting, do you consider a replacement's previous self's suspicions (or un-suspicions) when voting? Explain.

Nobody Special = cusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscusscuss

True, GIF wasn't like his cunning self in 1339. But he wasn't posting much here, either, like he's trying to divert attention from himself by posting IC stuff. And since we kept on gushing about how brilliant he was as scum in that game, he might've changed his gameplay so we'll think he's town.

[Trisania]

In 269 he's talking about the start of day 2, and the comment is accurate. You didn't have any votes on day 2 at that point, and Cervantes had picked up a a couple votes (afaik you still don't but I'm not really paying attention to votes yet, the Day is still pretty young).

^Whoa, WBO, wait. Have you forgotten Grim's doctor crumbing-that-isn't-a-crumb-at-all? That in itself has called attention to him (and to me for rolefishing). Do you think scum would be so bold as to even very barely hint at being a PR on D1? Regardless of the fact that he denied having soft-claimed at all, I don't think that entire situation is something that scum would want to happen so early in the game.

And how about hayato's buddying him? Shouldn't that be a town-tell instead? Unless you intend to change Grim's supposed partner from tcgw to hayato?

I do hope you've taken these into consideration.

[Trisania]

Sorry, I didn't intend to quote ffe.

[Trisania]

^Lol, calm down.

WBO, please be so kind as to answer NS's question.

[Trisania]

TRISIANA
*facepalm* Really? When he said he was a psychiatrist he was just joking. Then you're like all, roleclaiming him and he's like yeah, I'm a doctor. I'm not reconsidering my vote, as your reasoning
is litreally based on a joke.
Grimgroove will die today.

VOTE: GRIMGROOVE

Fine. Even if it was a joke, scum wouldn't "joke" about claiming anything.

What about the fact that he gave me a town read after I reacted to his "joke"? If he were scum, he would've taken the opportunity to point me out as scum for rolefishing.

@Tris

329 Afraid of appearing inconsistent is scum-tell in my book.

337 Didn’t ZF voted for WBO AND you? Why exclude yourself from that theory?

1. I'm pretty sure even a townie is somewhat afraid of being inconsistent. We are all suspicious, after all. So we all do our best to remain consistent. And it's more of a personal preference for me, rather than fearing too much of inconsistencies. I would rather be careful and vote only when I'm ready or when I see fit, rather than vote early on and be easily swayed by walls of explanations. But they still are subject to change, depending on how you present your defense.

And you better add "buddying" to your book. You seem to be unaware of

blatantly

doing it to Grim. Buddying is scummier than being inconsistent.

2. Including my name is irrelevant. At the time I made that post, I was merely thinking of directly addressing WHO's concern on the zipperflesh kill. It's already a given that I'm in a perilous situation because I was also zipper's scum read. But the focus on the post was WBO and zipperflesh, and not myself. It wasn't a "boohoo, we're gonna die because zipperflesh is dead and he suspected the both of us" post. It was a theoretical post directed at how the scum suspicion on WBO fits with zipperflesh's death.

[Trisania]

^Dude, even if I won't mention it again because it highlights my stupidity, someone is bound to bring it up again. It is their focal point in pointing out my "scumminess" or Grim's "softclaiming", when it truth it was just a misunderstanding which I already acknowledged right after that post.

[Trisania]

Grim, if you don't mind my asking, why am I your strongest townread? Hayato reads me as scum and even voted for me, while others place me at null.

[Trisania]

It's too early to claim. In other completed games I scanned, they do that on D3 when it's already MyLo or LyLo. In our case, we're far from that yet. Let's not put the PRs in a dangerous position.

[Trisania]

@TRIS
I'm not saying, claim your role, I'm saying look for clues that might imply roles being involved, and see what part of the matrix 6 we have.

thiscantgowrong being replaced will be interesting; him being scum is as important as grimgroove, so I'll analyze the NK.

So you're suggesting that we rolefish? Or at least post our assumptions on everyone's alignment, as well as their supposed roles?

@hayato:
1. Sorry, but that was my gut feel on your convo about his softclaiming tactic at another game. Either you were truly interested in figuring out his method, or you're trying to feign interest to please him.
2. No, it never crossed my mind. I detached myself from the situation while writing that post. If I wanted to protect myself, I would not have mentioned anything at all.

[Trisania]

And yeah, if I am so scummy to you, hayato, then who is my scum partner?

I'm glad I unvoted Cervantes, because fferyllt is proving to be very town to me.

[Trisania]

Really? Chuck Norris?

Chuck Norris.

[Trisania]

Not much posts by NS until now, and he haven't done anything to continue his "case" against WBO.

Hayato is still scummy to me, and his interest on Grim still smells like buddying.

But if I were to choose between them, it would be:

VOTE: Nobody Special

Sorry, hayato, I won't countervote you yet. NS's lack of activity is scummier to me. But if NS gets lynched and flips town, you'll be my primary suspect on D3, if I still live to see it.

[Trisania]

^If I may comment...

I honestly think it doesn't make sense. He reads you as scum for the same reason I read you as town - the seemingly-soft-claim-but-apparently-isn't post.

For me it was something scum WOULN'T do, since it would bring unnecessary and too early attention upon one's self for "claiming" so early, while for him, you made a fake-claim.

He seems hasty and too eager, but it earned him town points for being way TOO eager with his "revolutionary" votes.

[Trisania]

Yes, pretty sure he's town too, but terrible misguided. And since his guidance-system is currently pointing to me, I'm not the person who can talk him out of that

so I'm counting on the rest of town to do it.

Tried to do just that, but my efforts were worth two facepalms from him.

The debate about my psychiatrist-post doesn't make sense for either of you. It shouldn't make me town, it shouldn't make me scum. It was an entirely innocent metaphor that I didn't think would be interpreted any way other than the way I intended it to.

Well, the way it made sense in my mind made me believe you're town.

[Trisania]

What's a halo effect? Does it refer to the literal halo on an angel, to mean that someone is trying to appear good?

[Trisania]

@Nobody Special:

Where is your case against WBO? Who do you think is his partner?

[Trisania]

@hayato:
Because, as I said, you're also my scum-read. If my primary scum-read, NS, proves to be town, then you're next in line.

And I'm not "basically" voting for lurkers. I voted Cervantes for that, true, but I unvoted him to give fferyllt a chance to post. And my vote on NS was mostly because I feel his posts are insufficient and too safe to be town.

[Trisania]

I didn’t know that fferyllt is known to wait a very long time before placing a vote. I just don’t see how an experienced player could make an ‘afraid of making enemies’ mistake. I see that as an ‘only a newbie mistake’. And comparing to the other two brand newbies (WBO and TCGW),

Tris is the least aggressive, which reminds me of my first game as scum recently.

Just because I seem to be acting the way you did as scum in another game, doesn't mean I am scum. We're two different people; the way I react to a situation is obviously different from you. Aggression isn't my thing. I'm lazy. I believe I said that before. But I take time to address concerns directed at me to clear things up. I'd go after you based purely on gut feel if my gut says you're scum, but that's not enough to put pressure on a person since their own incriminating posts are more effective at that.

[Trisania]

Tris seems to understand your soft-claim method on that other game

and because of it concluded that you were not fake-PRcrumbing. Ref : 277. Yet you’re only suspicious towards me and gave that buddy-test to only me. Why suspect only me of trying to buddy you, but not Tris?

I didn't say anything of that sort. Grim said he soft-claimed in that game, and I checked it with that thought in mind. Even if I knew he soft-claimed, I couldn't tell from his posts.

@Tris
You said TNE was town because of his ‘don’t care attitude’. Isn't NS also showing a ‘don’t care attitude’? If he did, why are you treating him differently?

NS was ignoring his L-1, unlike TNE who acknowledged it but expressly claimed he didn't give a fuck. NS isn't even worried he's about to be lynched. That in itself is suspicious. I can't explain it rationally, but it smells scum. He's not in a hurry to claim or lay down his case against WBO, either.

[Trisania]

^Board settings > display signature

[Trisania]

^Let me correct that:

User Control Panel > Board preferences tab > Edit posting defaults > Attach my signature by default: Yes

[Trisania]

^hayato is tunneling me. So it's less likely he'd notice anyone else unless it's hammer time.

[Trisania]

@Nobody Special:
I'm still waiting on that case against WBO. When can you provide it?

@fferyllt:
WBO sees you as town, I believe. Maybe that's why he doesn't question you. Or me, either. Or hayato.

It seems he's utterly convinced Grim is town that he doesn't mind the rest of us that much.

[Trisania]

^Edit that:

"...utterly convinced that Grim is

town

scum

..."

[Trisania]

I was talking about hayato, not WDO, but your point is maybe a good one.

Sorry, I was thinking about WBO and Grim.

But I guess that also applies to hayato, since he is convinced I'M scum. But he's willing to hammer NS. Why? And why hammer NS if he claims VT? We don't even know how many PRs there are in this setup. Hayato can't expect an actual VT to roleclaim.

[Trisania]

^I figured PR claims are more likely to fail, since there's a risk of drawing out the actual PR and having the claim challenged. Scum would have to be really careful on what role to claim. I'd rather claim VT if I'm scum.

On another note, I checked Grim's wiki. It's interesting to note that out of the 18 personal games he finished, he was town-aligned in 14 of them. And only three mafia-aligned games. So it's highly likely he's town here. Though the roles are random, it appears that the odds are with him 77.7778% of the time.

[Trisania]

TRISIANA: I don't really have much to say (and haven't for a while), but you seem to get rocked off balance easily. Beware. A hayato-assault might get you a lynch.

So you're basically saying I'm the weak link. Could you please cite.instances where I got "rocked off balance easily"? Because I think I was able to adequately address hayato's concerns/suspicions about me.

It's funny that we view two people differently. Grim is your scum, while hayato is mine.

[Trisania]

there's some sort of connection between WDO (and possibly trisania) and Zipperflesh's NK.

You mentioned this before. What makes you think we have some sort of connection? Is it because of the zipperflesh vote on both me and WBO?

[Trisania]

Your reaction, voting him, for "Because you annoy me and you're the only player leaning scum on my list. Also, you refuse to share you reason for wanting to sheep hayato, which is reminiscent of you changing your votes twice without proper reason." struck me as the sort of reason that newbscum come up with for voting. My newbscum partner in the most recent newbie game I played was giving similar reasons for voting, and I was in-thread coaching him to back it the hell down right under town's nose.

It was an OMGUS vote at first, because he DID annoy me. I was in a bit of a temper that time, and he was sort of tunneling me, so I countered him. But I stood by my vote because he really was scummy for me, specially with his shifting votes.

Both of your reactions looked off to me when I reread the game thread and put together my catch-up opus.

It could be newbtown nervousness on both your parts, but your reactions raised my neck hairs when I read them, and I have not been able to shake that impression.

It is very unlikely that WBO and I are scum together just because we had the same reaction. It would be bad enough that we'd both be newbscum, much more that we are displaying the same characteristics. It would then spell doom for both of us if we are scum, since we slipped on D1. My reaction was genuine annoyance. I don't know about WBO, but it seemed real to me too. I admit it's not a desirable behavior, though, regardless of one's alignment.

[Trisania]

@Mod: I would like to request a prod on Nobody Special. Thanks!

[Trisania]

@WBO:

TRISIANA: I don't really have much to say (and haven't for a while), but you seem to get rocked off balance easily. Beware. A hayato-assault might get you a lynch.

So you're basically saying I'm the weak link. Could you please cite.instances where I got "rocked off balance easily"? Because I think I was able to adequately address hayato's concerns/suspicions about me.

It's funny that we view two people differently. Grim is your scum, while hayato is mine.

@WBO

Please point out, which questions of mine could lead to the outing of a PR.

[Trisania]

Interesting. But this is a newbie game. There can't be any dethy here.

[Trisania]

IMO, Tris avoids ruffling up feathers, which mirrors myself in my first game playing scum. Her vote on the passive-Cervantes and then unvote you seems like someone who is afraid to make enemies.

I unvoted Cervantes to give his replacement a chance to post and prove her town alignment. Cervantes was a lurker, so it was natural for him to be suspected, whereas fferyllt is a waller. As I've said, it was a good thing I unvoted, because fferyllt is now one of my townreads.

I haven’t really dive into partner-reads. If Tris flips scum, I might have more suspicion towards…

(SD)TCGW. They suspected each other early Day 1. After Gif puts that transparency read on Tris, TCGW dropped the case and since then they town-read each other

With this in mind, how do you explain the zipperflesh NK? Because if I were scum, he wouldn't be my NK choice. It would put too much suspicion on me, considering he voted for me and I countered him.

If tcgw and I are partners, then wouldn't it be more rational to take out the experienced players? As newbscum, we'd be threatened by those people, instead of someone who have acted scummier because of his changing votes.

[Trisania]

@SD:
I'm pretty sure the only time I was "speculating" about roles was when I jumped to the conclusion that Grim was crumbing. I've already said it was an honest mistake, and didn't know it was rolefishing.

Also, I'm not really just jumping on wagons. I initially voted for tcgw, true, but I considered his defenses and unvoted him.

I didn't follow the TNE wagon. I don't understand why you're saying my read on him was bad. He was being town to me. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean I'm town.

Lastly, I didn't vote for NS just because it was a bandwagon. It just happened that Grim voted for him first.

@hayato:
It's ok sharing our plan B, as long as we don't go into specifics. If NS flips town, I'm gonna have to reconsider all my reads on you and probably suspect the towniest as scum, since the lurkers and seemingly-scum turned out to be town.

[Trisania]

THIS IS IN GENERAL, ESPECIALLY FOR FFERYLLT AND HAYATOBL
Often, when I bring up a previous scenario, I don't remember when it happened.

I remembered Trisiana setting up weak walls beginning of day 2, but not exactly when.

I'm lazy. Avatar might come soon, SD.

^Is this post trying to address this question...?

So you're basically saying I'm the weak link. Could you please cite.instances where I got "rocked off balance easily"? Because I think I was able to adequately address hayato's concerns/suspicions about me.

[Trisania]

NS IS TOWN. YOU'RE NOW MY PRIMARY SCUM-READ, HAYATO.

I'll post more later, after this Sunday overtime work.

[Trisania]

Yes. I didn't die. We just lost our best waller. I have lots in store for today, but I won't post now out of laziness.

Do you still think Grim is scum? Just a yes or a no, if you're feeling really lazy.

[Trisania]

@GRIMGROOVE:
Why were you breadcrumbing PR?
BTW, it's LyLo. Commence WIFOM.

It's MyLo. We still have a chance to win if we lynch the right person today.

[Trisania]

^I don't agree with the LyLo thing, but I agree with the Doc.

I think it's safe to say we can claim now.

[Trisania]

You were ready to lynch Grim on D2. How could you be cop?

[Trisania]

The meta of cops as I read in the wiki is that they are careful and want to gather as much information as they can on people before voting. Why then, were you being hasty on D2?

[Trisania]

If he's null, then what are your reads on me and SD?

[Trisania]

Fferyllt's ghost!

I think I know why you died....

[Trisania]

Hi, I am your Doc. I acted sort of scummy to survive. Why else would scum not kill me?

N1 - Protected Grim. He wasn't even the target.
N2 - Protected fferyllt. She died. I was obviously roleblocked.

Sorry for the little stunt I did back at D1, Grim, it was a stupid mistake. A stupid attempt at redirection.

[Trisania]

If only a mafia goon is lynched today and this drags on, I'll be killed first so the roleblocker won't have a hard time killing the cop.

[Trisania]

Scratch that. Considering what happened to fferyllt, my protection doesn't matter. Cop still dies. :/

[Trisania]

What I meant to say is:
If roleblocker gets lynched, mafia goon will kill me because he won't be able to kill the cop because of my protection.

If mafia goon dies, roleblocker will obviously go for the cop and kill him despite my protection.

[Trisania]

I did not expect WBO to be the cop. His D2 performance was so random I thought he was a bit crazy.

I didn't expect him to claim, either.

[Trisania]

I'm still skeptical on his claim, since he was really pushing for your lynch on D2, even though people weren't paying attention to him. I would imagine cop to be more careful than that, and question you thoroughly instead of forcing a lynch or roleclaim.

@SD:
Whaaaaat? Just like that? You don't even doubt my claim? A normal reaction would be questioning a person who claims PR.

I'm not sure of either cop claims. I'd have to revisit their posts to be sure, considering hayato is my scum-read and WBO acted weird on D2.

[Trisania]

Tris, should I doubt your claim? Seems strange for you to say that, from town-you perspective it's a clear 50-50 on the playerlist.

It's just unexpected of you. When you came into this game I was your top scum read and even voted for me. But now that I claimed Doc, all your suspicions suddenly vanished as if you town-read me all along.

[Trisania]

Trisiana, what is your stance on my case on Hayato?

He was my scum-read, but he claimed cop.

I'm currently reading his ISO.

[Trisania]

Tris are you still online?

Yes, but this thread has become so active it's hard to keep up with my slow internet while trying to read hayato's ISO.

I'd rather not vote yet. It is so easy for scum to quickhammer on a posted vote.

[Trisania]

Hayato is at L-1? I didn't notice.

[Trisania]

I won't prolong the agony:

It is so easy for scum to quickhammer on a posted vote

If you're town, don't vote for a couple of days please (real time).

Vote: WBO

Sorry, SD.

VOTE: WBOCampfire1104

[Trisania]

TRIS YOU SON O A BISCUIT
IM YOUR COP HAYATO AND SD ARE SCUM
WE LOST
AAAAAAAAARRRRRGHHJJHHHHKSNSSSHEJJJBSISBUSISJKSKSBSISBJSJSBSJHSJD

Actually, I won.

[Trisania]

Yaaaaay!

[Trisania]

Well done, Tris and Hayato!

How did you know it was hayato?

[Trisania]

Well done Tris.

Be honest. Did you thought I made a mistake with the targets of investigation?

No. To be honest, your constant questioning of people and you tunnelling me is a pretty good excuse for fake-claiming cop.

[Trisania]

Thanks for trusting me, SD! I was very surprised when you did a 180 and suddenly town-read me. I was actually worried you'd push for my lynch on D3 after being unsuccessful at it on D2.

Thanks for being a great scum partner, hayato. Your walls earned you a town read so much that town never considered us being partners.

I hope to play with all of you again!

[Trisania]

@fferyllt:
Thanks for the compliment!

@Grim:
I knew that too, but if hayato had been lynched D3, I would have opted to keep WBO alive. I'd kill you instead, because at least WBO suspects SD.

[Trisania]

Since WBO claimed, there was no other move but to fake-claim a non-existent Doc. And since hayato told me he can't claim the role because of how he questioned Grim with it, I knew I had to be the one to do it.

It was painful waiting for that one anti-town vote by another town.