Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille
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AstralFlare Goon
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AstralFlare Goon
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Probably evil. VOTE: ChrimiIn post 11, Rocnix wrote:VOTE: Chrimi
Your terrifying display of circular logic indicates evil and/or a sense of humor!-
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AstralFlare Goon
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I'm curious as to how you were able to get a read (however mild) on Chrimi and I after two or three posts each. Is this purely based off tone?In post 16, implosion wrote: I'm also willing to weakly call Chrimi town for now, but only very weakly. I'd also say AstralFlare is slightly town.
You seem to have succeeded.Chrimi wrote: Self voting during RVS is a fun way to get some conversation started in my opinion :b
You're switching stories. Which is it?In post 20, Chrimi wrote: I know I started it. I was mostly joking. :u
relatableIn post 17, shannon wrote:(Imagine I am clever and have inserted a cute gif here)
Also, welcome Rocnix!-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Jibs seems towny, he's quite actively questioning people and trying to push the discussion forward, with lots of effort spent on checking Chrimi's past games. I'll be investigating those as well, and I'll post in a few hours if I find anything interesting.
Implosion, is your Penguin FoS tone based as well?
Shannon and rocnix, do you have any thoughts right now on anything?-
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AstralFlare Goon
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That was in 2012! In her more recent games, I'm unable to find any examples of anyone selfvoting during RVS.she opened up with a self vote in Open 398, where she ended up being scum. I couldn't find any other games where she started like that.
Chrimi: In addition to Jib's question, I would like to know if you've had any recent off-site experience.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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My intention was completely the opposite. In my second statement, I was trying to add on to the pressure on her with more questions. Sentence one was a more of 'Hey I did my too homework and want to compare my answers with yours' kinda thing.In post 52, shannon wrote:In post 42, AstralFlare wrote:
That was in 2012! In her more recent games, I'm unable to find any examples of anyone selfvoting during RVS.she opened up with a self vote in Open 398, where she ended up being scum. I couldn't find any other games where she started like that.
Chrimi: In addition to Jib's question, I would like to know if you've had any recent off-site experience.
Astral Eevee - why are you defending Chrimi against Jibs' comment here?
Chrimi, why are youstillnot voting?-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Not voting at this stageisin fact scummy. While it's true that we're on page three, it has been a Very Serious Game so far. We're pretty much out of RVS, and are already very much in actual discussion. Your vote would be valued here as a means to add pressure on someone, so we can gauge their response for any scumminess.
And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?-
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AstralFlare Goon
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I don't have much time to give Very Serious reads right now, and in fact won't have much time until my Friday evening, so in the meantime just expect some general thoughts and questions.
I'm not getting the scum reads on these two. Care to explain them? Both are a null for me right now, especially in comparison with Chrimi. Is this all tone based? None of them has done anything particularly scummy. Shannon's vote onto Chrimi seemed appropriate considering she was questioning Chrimi at that time - extra pressure. Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?
I'm going with a tentative townlean onto implosion. His posts have generally been informative and content heavy, logical and measured. I like that.
Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)
On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement. Other SEs, what do you think of this:
Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Can we start a Chrimi question deflection list? I'll start.
Q48(AF): [...] Chrimi, why aren't you voting?
A56: I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.
Q71:(0X4X): First you say you have multiple alternate accounts, and now it's only "an alt?"
VOTE: Chrimi
You will explain this contradiction, along with giving the usernames of all your other alts, if you want this vote to be elsewhere today.
A73: Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.
A74: And yes, I do have two alts, but the second one is literally a Hydra between this account and the first alt, so i don't really consider it an actual alt.
I gtg soon, but the general trend I've seen is her counter questioning her questioner to avoid answering the original question. In 102 as well. Also no time for fancy formatting and quotes, so again if someone could do that thank you.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Thoughts on alts: (I have none btw)
With TNE here. Alts shouldn't be a be all and end all as far as reads go, rather they should be supporting evidence. But my vote on Chrimi isn't about her alts, it's about her deflecting literally every question and withholding information and not supporting her arguments and just generally screaming ASININE ASININE ASININE when people try to vote her.
@TNE, could you elaborate on 159?
Any readlists you guys feel like sharing? Mine comes tomorrow.-
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I've had a third to half of it written out right now, I'm afraid it's going to be a wall. Probably tomorrow night my time. (GMT +8)In post 181, Jibs wrote:
*snip*
Astralflare: Let's see that reads list. Also, do you remember which posts you were talking about here in post 103?
Your read feels a little TMI to me: up to that point I had felt like imp's play felt very "cares more about being right than finding scum."In post 103, AstralFlare wrote:I'm going with a tentative townlean onto implosion. His posts have generally been informative and content heavy, logical and measured. I like that.
I can't remember exactly which of his posts I had in mind back then, but now looking back his 78-89 are all solid.
I don't get what TMI stands for, but I don't particularly agree with your "cares more about being right than finding scum". I think that a lot of what you mean by "being right" (correct me if I'm wrong) are the sections of his posts which involve imparting knowledge of the meta into us Newbies, which is all part of his IC role. Obviously he has to sound right, and be right. And he's definitely scumhunted, in his exchange with Chrimi and now his 183.
I'm sorry as well, but I don't see a contradiction. In the first post you quoted, I said Chrimi seemed town at end of Page 3, but seemed scum in Page 4, after the dodging and the witholding of information ramped up to a whole new level. The second post was merely a half done attempt to list down every time she had done so. Where did I contradict myself?Also, and I am sorry to do this, can you explain the discrepancy here:In post 103, AstralFlare wrote: Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4.
*snip*In post 105, AstralFlare wrote:Can we start a Chrimi question deflection list? I'll start.
Q48(AF): [...] Chrimi, why aren't you voting?
A56: I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.
Q71:(0X4X): First you say you have multiple alternate accounts, and now it's only "an alt?"
VOTE: Chrimi
You will explain this contradiction, along with giving the usernames of all your other alts, if you want this vote to be elsewhere today.
A73: Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.
A74: And yes, I do have two alts, but the second one is literally a Hydra between this account and the first alt, so i don't really consider it an actual alt.
I gtg soon, but the general trend I've seen is her counter questioning her questioner to avoid answering the original question. In 102 as well. Also no time for fancy formatting and quotes, so again if someone could do that thank you.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Meanwhile, a question for everyone.
PP: Why aren't you voting? You said in Post 147 that you were unvoting your RVS but wasn't voting as you had nowhere better to place it. And yet, you read Chrimi as scum in the very same post.
Chrimi: Can I have your thoughts on people besides implosion?
0x40: Same as Chrimi, but thoughts on people besides Chrimi.
Jibs: The Rocnix townread. The one thing in your analyses I'm scratching my head over. Explain.
Rocnix:
Explain this!Jibs doesn't strike me as the sort of mastermind to start that early, so that's probably not a breadcrumb for eventual post-flip association whatever. So, the thoughtful posts read town.
Shannon: Are you suspicious of anyone beyond 0x40?
TNE: You've said a lot about your scumreads, but is there anyone who you think is town?
Implosion: Could you separate the IC part of your posts from the play part? It's difficult to tell which is which. In my previous game the IC's theory posts were a different color.-
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I.
Literally.
Copied.
And.
Pasted.
How is that misrepresentation?-
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AstralFlare Goon
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AstralFlare
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AstralFlare Goon
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I said she was anti town because she dodged questions and didn't support her claims, not because I disagreed with her. Also her tendency to shove aside anyone who FoSed her as asinine didn't make her look any more townie. Towns try to advance the game, not keep it at a standstill. That's changed since, and I'm glad.In post 257, implosion wrote: FTR I really do strongly disagree with the characterization of Chrimi as an anti-town VI. She's providing a lot of reasoned content, and just because you disagree with that content does not make her a VI, or anti-town. This refers to both AstralFlare and 0x40. And I really do think in both of these cases it is mostly just disagreement.
Seeing as I forgot to do so last post,
UNVOTE:-
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AstralFlare Goon
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kk point by point rebuttal.
You can read tone from text. You can tell from the choice of words and the sentence length whether someone is happy or angry, indignant or afraid. You can tell from how much they write whether they're being defensive or not. You can tell from all of these whether someone is town or scum. Here's a helpful tutorial: http://literarydevices.net/tone/.
I was referring only to the *tone* of that single line.
Yes, because I'd selfvote and claim scum in my first post in order to look unscummy and blend in.In post 60, AstralFlare wrote:To clarify, it makes it seem like you will only do stuff because that will make you look unscummy.
I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question. I voted you because you were dodging questions, not supporting your claims, and calling everything you didn't like asinine.
Yet I'm scum for not voting by page 3, right? :bIn post 103, AstralFlare wrote:Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?
Page four? Let me see what page four was about... Oh right, it was mine and implosion's disagreement. Let's see what you have to say about that:Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)
Tone I already talked about. You can disagree with someone, while simultaneously dodging their questions and changing your tone? I don't get you at all here.
Ohhh, right. My disagreement with implosion, which took up most of page four, was based on a meta disagreement. But of course, at the same time, according to you, I was dodging and my "tone" was changing from outraged townie to afraid scum.On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement.
Riiight.
I was saying I didn't think this was a good assumption, so I was asking people who are more experienced than me at the game if this is standard.
"Please discredit her playstyle!"[/spoiler]Other SEs, what do you think of this:
Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.
VOTE: AstralFlare-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Fair enough. I can see where this comes from. I was just stating some of the reasons why I townread him, and wasn't trying to decrease pressure on him. This is very town from you though.In post 282, Chrimi wrote:
He hasn't said anything about this being a reaction test, stop giving him an out. He's not "pointing fingers at everyone and putting pressure" like you seem to think he is. He's hard tunneling a single player because he doesn't understand that having alts is NAI, same with not wanting to share said alts. You're giving a looot of credit where it isn't due.In post 277, AstralFlare wrote:0x40 as town. That's the surprise done with. His style is really confrontational and provocative, far far more so than I would expect from scum. He says he's played lots of IRC mafia. I've played a lot of IRC werewolf. I can say that one of the most common plays I see good town doing is pointing fingers at everyone day one to add pressure. This is the famous reaction test, although I have doubts about how efficient it is in a slower forum format. This is also what he is doing now. Nitpicking, but 108 and 114 are good. This hammering for concrete info is good town play. I have doubts about him wanting everyone's alts, but it can't be denied that his 254 is good.
Does your case on me looks like it comes from genuine town scumhunting, or is it coming from scum trying to make up reasons to get me lynched? I think it's the former, although very misguided.
While I agree with fence-sitting, him re-evaluating you after I told him you're definitely scum and posted a case is super town of him.Implosion as very weak scumlean. I don't know. On reading his ISO, his recent posts seem waffly. 182 in particular. It is flippy floppy sit-on-the-fence, with him looking unwilling to really commit to anything, while simultaneously trying to reserve the "it's late and I'm sleepy" backdoor if he gets called out. In fact, after another readthrough I seem to notice he's just following the flow of the game, following the majority, lynching someone when others do, townleaning someone when everyone else does. Like right now, he says he's re-evaluating me, after Chrimi voiced her opinion that I was scum. His posts thus far have also been more I agree/I disagree. There's a lack of question marks. Not sure if this is a playstyle thing, but even if it is I think he should be more active in scumhunting.
I can definitely agree @ the lack of question marks though.
Scum build awful cases very often, in fact if a case is awful that is usually because it's wrong. The real thing you want to look for is if a case looks like it's coming from genuine town scumhunting, or if it's coming from scum trying to make up reasons to get someone lynched.Chrimi is town. Lol. This is based on her 259 readlist and her tone over the past few pages. I don't think scum would build such an awful case on me as well. More on that later.
Now you're the one taking pressure off someone else. Why are you defending her? SHe has been really unhelpful, and you should helping to put pressure on her so we can tease something out.
It's called a joke. And while her posts are small and not huge on content, this is:TNE as very weak scumlean until I get that Shannon case. It's been 6 posts. She's switched her opinion from totoro-san big that it's Shannon/PP, but now has her vote on 0x4x? I'd like an explanation. Her average postlength looks to be about 30 words, and she hasn't posted a readlist yet. Not helping town.
1. Per her meta
2. To be expected in most games who are this far into Day One
The abnormality in this game is how much content the rest of us are posting with so little information to go off of, really.
He explained that, and I accepted it.
Now this just pings scumteam for me hardcore. No real specifics at all or information, like the rest of your reads had. "He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing" even after making a case on me, tunneling into it before suddenly switching to someone else seemingly out of the blue before I even posted a readslist?PP as uh, null? I can't tell what you guys find so scummy about him. He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing, his short exchange with Chrimi felt pretty meaningless.
Oh, yes you've changed from
You're misunderstanding.In post 278, AstralFlare wrote:
I said she was anti town because she dodged questions and didn't support her claims, not because I disagreed with her. Also her tendency to shove aside anyone who FoSed her as asinine didn't make her look any more townie. Towns try to advance the game, not keep it at a standstill. That's changed since, and I'm glad.In post 257, implosion wrote: FTR I really do strongly disagree with the characterization of Chrimi as an anti-town VI. She's providing a lot of reasoned content, and just because you disagree with that content does not make her a VI, or anti-town. This refers to both AstralFlare and 0x40. And I really do think in both of these cases it is mostly just disagreement.
I haven't changed at all.
I wasn't calling people asinine for FoSing me, and I didn't dodge any questions. I didn't make any claims to support, because I was too busy dealing with several players (mostly 0x40) telling me that I was scum forhaving alts.
You saying I was anti-town was totally misrep, and now you're misrepping why you did it in the first place. Yuck.
to 259Jibs, congratulating implosion on getting me to say something about alignment, as if we were into the game enough that I had been avoiding it for any particular amount of time, is asinine.
implosion attempting a serious case on me before page 5 is asinine, hence why I don't take his case seriously at all.
Penguin assuming that an SE telling him that information doesn't benefit town is somehow scummy, is asinine. I'm telling you that alts don't benefit town much as an SE, regardless of my alignment.
0x40, I do have a good reason, and you whining about it when having alts isn't game related in any way is asinine.
Jibs, assuming shannon is scum because she has literally nothing to go on because it's page five is asinine.
Astroflare is just being asinine in general, especially with the misreps after I explained that one is a fucking hydra.
In one you were lashing out at anything you disagreed with, in another you were providing actual discussion.
[/quote]kk point by point rebuttal rebuttal
Spoiler: rebute that shit
I don't see any value in continuing this part of our discussion. I would rather be analyzing the posts of people who are currently null for me and asking questions rather than defending myself over nothing.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Why do you think that the people calling you out for your Rocnix read are likely to be scum?In post 283, Jibs wrote: The point is, three different people called me out on my rocnix read, and it's not possible for scumteam to be you+pp+imp. I don't think you would change a read based on people disagreeing, but I 100% would.
Can you explain why you would follow the reads of others over your own? These people could be scum, and could be trying to influence you to vote a townie. Following other people's reads is also a potentially scummy action, you're just going along with the flow of the game, rather than consciously trying to advance it.-
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Ahh, yes. I'm curious as to how you jumped from "townhunting more than scumhunting" to powerrole however. That said, I feel like actively hunting for powerroles this early is anti-town, as it narrows the pool for mafia nightkills.My main interpretation of shannon's behavior is "impressed." Her reaction test focused on the larger picture, so she's probably townhunting more than scumhunting. My guess is that she's either a power role exploring the situation or scum searching for ideal targets.-
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How am I refusing to participate? I'm not defending myself from your case, yes, but I'm participating in other ways. I see more value for town in doing this rather than pointlessly defending myself.
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I think we've come to a conclusion that we shouldn't be policy lynching people for lurking, but I don't think anything regarding Lynch All Lurkers has been discussed?In post 316, shannon wrote:The other thing I'm wondering is whether people *know* we won't be policy lynching (e.g. lynching lurkers) so they're being deliberately lurky D1 because they know they can get a way with it?
While on the topic of lurking: I get that it's the weekend and there hasn't been much to go on lately, but this sudden (relative) silence is pretty worrying. cough TNE this is your cue.
@shannon How much of your 310 was sarcasm?-
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This I can agree with.In post 327, Jibs wrote:Hello all.
Rereading is making me like shannon a little more--that's just a gut read, I don't really have a good reason for it. I didn't notice all of her posts the first time through.
I like her vote behind TNE, and I think the same logic can be extended to why it's on 0x40.I don't quite understand why people seem to be clearing Rocnix. My recent posts maybe exaggerate my suspicions, but I think posts like this
(my bold) indicate a scum mindset--like she's afraid of being called out for her vote.In post 161, Rocnix wrote:My vote will stay on 0x40since he's not really at risk of being lynchedand I would like to hear more from him.
^Tne needs to explain how she cleared shannon and also post some awesome reads that crack this game open and send scum running with terror.
It's not for everyone. My first time here was pretty rough too, but I'm getting a much bigger kick out of it this time! Play whatever you like best, but I for one hope you stick around. :pThat brings me to my final point--I'm pretty sure this is my last game of forum mafia. It eats up a lot of time and energy, but it doesn't provide what I got from face-to-face Avalon. Nothing against you guys, you've all been great, but I'm pretty tired of this game.-
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Eh. I don't like this post. For one thing you're cherry picking a game for us to look at, where you've had a reasonably good prediction rate, at least for this early in the game. For another thing you're appealing to ethos. Sure, you might be correct this game as well, but it's different players and a different setup now.In post 330, implosion wrote:
If anyone is interested in my town meta, one excellent little piece of it is a large normal that I just completed that shannon was in. By two real-life days into the game, I had 11 townreads out of the 18 other players in the game.
This game is starting to stall out a tad - we'll see after the weekend if it's just because of schedules, or because different people are waiting on more posts from specific players, or other reasons. Hopefully it's just that people in this game are more active on weekdays.
I'll definitely take another look at your meta when I have time, but over there you come off way more declarative. Just look at the average post lengths, for example.
And yeah, I'm mainly waiting for TNE.-
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Why do you think scum is there? Last I checked, you had Chrimi and I as town, and PP and implosion who aren't in the round robin as null. Assuming your first scumread is Jibs, what makes you so quick to discount PP and implosion, and so confident that it's either TNE or 0x40 as second scum?In post 333, shannon wrote:We have Chrimi on AF, AF on TNE ,TNE on 0x40, and 0x40 on Chrimi in a round-robin of OMGUS and early game grudges. I think one of our scum is here-
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Withholding information is usually anti town. It's a game of an informed minority vs an uninformed majority. Anything that makes the majority more informed swings the game in their favor. I quite honestly do not understand the motivation behind town!TNE withholding info, she knows it'll make her look scummier and seems like a gross under reaction for a townie at L-2. More likely she's scum trying to bluff.In post 349, Jibs wrote:I agree that talking about this stuff usually helps scum more than town,-
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I wouldn't say so. Yes, if TNE flips scum, Chrimi is pretty much confirmed town. There's no reason for scum!Chrimi to push a wagon so hard on her partner over something as common as lurking.In post 374, Jibs wrote:I'm feeling very strongly that Chrimi and tne are opposite alignment now
Rocnix: You mentioned in your readlist that TNE was null. So was your vote of TNE several pages after to pressure into more activity, or because you genuinely thought her as scum?-
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I realised that of the possible setups, 5 of those (JK, BP, Doc) could have prevented a nightkill, so that just leaves us with B column eliminated.
Also there's no nightkill for me to analyse, so VOTE: implosion
More on this later.
Cass, could you post your first impressions? Like I said I don't think there's much we can analyze for this night, beyond useless speculation on who scum targeted and who the PR is.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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I think it was town's only option for a lynch with so little time left on the clock, especially with the surge of replacements and my unfortunately illness. I don't really have an issue with the people just joining the wagon because "day ending soon". (I've expressed my own opinion on 0x40 before. If you're too lazy to look through my ISO I called him town.) So no, I would have tried to push another wagon instead.AF, what do you make of the wagon and in general the play that occurred while you were gone? Would you have joined it, do you think? Do you think it was a good lynch?-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Weird game. I lost all confidence in my reads over the last two pages. Implosion's wagon onto PP looks sufficiently towny. There's a clear trajectory behind the vote, he's been angling for a PP lynch ever since Day One. If he was scum aiming for a mislynch this would be a weird time to do it as the day just started... there's no way town is going to trip over themselves to follow all the way through on the wagon.
Though come to think of it they could be bussing. Over the night I actually thought the NotSoInnocentVillagers were implosion and PP. Imp pushing the wagon now would clear him up while also ensuring PP isn't lynched. This is all very conjecture, but really I'm interested in seeing how the interaction between the two of them proceed.
Chrimi- I remember you once called imp weakly scummy. In that case why did you join his wagon?
And for the hypocrisy... VOTE: PP L-2.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Why did you FoS Chrimi if you were convinced by implosion's case that PP was scum? What exactly about Chrimi's claim do you find 'off'?In post 536, Drone wrote:Okay, Implosion's points on PP's behaviour is convincing and shows me he is a little shady. Kind of slipped under my radar when I've been skimming through day 1.
Now that I think of it, he could very much be the scum I've been concerned of "directing" the wagon on 0x40.
But he didn't raise the fire on 0x40.. I need to check his ISO. Never know what else I might find.
Chrimi's claim, although uncc'ed, is a bit off to me.
FoS: Chrimi.
Why would you roll with tne on the claim request?
Chrimi was quite actively producing flames on 0x40's, but she doesn't seem to be bashing just about anyone, 0x40's was bash - worthy too..
Vote: Cass.
Don't get me wrong, it's not an omgus vote. You didn't answer my question which directly refers to something you addressed.
Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.
I anticipate your answer about Rocnix. Don't ignore something you started.
Yep I want aaaaaaaaall their names. Also what's your IRL name and address and phone number.shannon wrote:OMG but what about your aaaaaalts
Joke's aside shannon's lines of questioning and trains of thought today have felt really town to me. She's probably done the most to scumhunt in fact. Now we just need TNE to reply...
I think Chrimi was chosen to be NKed because she was the 'safe' choice. She was the one who stood out the most in terms of being aggressive, and would thus have the highest probability of finding scum through her pressure. If you look at the other players, there were two replacements, PP/me are kinda meh, TNE was just lurking with one liners and her wagon had a chance of continuing to the next day. So I think it was down between you, implosion (who has contenty but waffly posts) and Chrimi. Assuming everyone is town.shannon wrote:I'm going to ISO Chrimi next and see whether there's anything worthy of a NK attempt. From memory nothing sticks out but I'll re-read in light of my new theory. (It's also possible that Chrimi is having a gambit of some sort here).
More random thoughts, this time on the Cass/Drone interaction (yeah this post isn't tyring to drive in any particular direction, just make up for my long absence):
I'm reading both of them as misguided townies right now. I like how Drone said his vote onto 0x40 was a policy lynch from the very start, and then stuck to his guns on it even when under pressure. Cass' observations are solid, but I don't think that FoSing three different people is necessarily scummy--I've done the exact same thing as a townie myself. Drone's argument is much weaker really, but again I think scum wouldn't have tried to make such a weak argument in the first place. A single vote is easy enough to just ignore.
Eg
It's called trying not to tunnel.drone wrote:Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.
@Cass&Drone: As replacements, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the people who have been playing since the start. This doesn't have to be a thirty quote supported readlist, but I would appreciate a sense of the general feeling you have towards everyone. Just a lean town/null/lean scum would be good enough.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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My thought process was more of implosion seems to be contributing more than PP, so it is better to leave him alive (for now). But what you said is certainly valid. I'm not taking my vote away until he posts though.In post 547, shannon wrote:PEdit:
Just saw Astral Flare's post pop up ahead of me hitting this one, and he's voted PP. I'm going to post my ISO check anyway, because I think that's the most honest thing to do. I can't vote PP, I can't see any scum motivation in his posts. What am I missing?
The other thing I want to note, AF, is that if you think the team could be Implosion and PP it might be best to vote for Implosion as he's most experienced. If those two are a team, I think PP will struggle without Implosion where as the reverse might not be so true.
Tbh I think his response to implosion is fair as well.ISOing PP -
I get newbie town vibes rather than scum vibes. Reading back, I think his response to Implosion's 531 is fair.
389- "Absent a scumslip, significant new information, or us getting within 72 hours of deadline, I don't see my vote changing until Rocnix - or her slot - returns and starts participating. "
410 - "Looks like Rocnix isn't coming back, and we won't get a replacement until D2. I will not support a TNE lynch, and I'm hesitant on Chrimi and AF. I'm willing to pursue Jibs or 0x40. Jibs has been more involved, but to what end...I don't know.
UNVOTE: Rocnix
VOTE: 0x40"
I can see why at this later stage in the day, PP changes his vote off of Rocnix. So overall, townish?
What I didn't like was how hard he tried to push the TNE wagon when she was L-1 without even FoSing her, even after his scumreads from his 280 readlist were Jibs/imp. Also a 'sideline sitting' 'hesitating to commit' attitude which rubs me not as a playstyle thing, but as a scum-motivated thing. Implosion elaborated more on those.
Which is why this made me laugh a little, as I was getting the same vibes from implosion late Day1.You're case against me is that I don't play this game like you do.
Alsoshannon 547 wrote:I can't vote PP, I can't see any scum motivation in his posts. What am I missing?
Was this purely because of the ISO reread? How did the ISO reread help disprove existing suspicion leveled on PP, such as implosion's case?shannon 535 wrote:I don't mind the votes on PP either
PEdit: OK, here's a question for everyone. All else being equal, at the end of D1, who did you think would be the D2 lynch and why?
Tne for lurking and unhelpfulness or PP for scumminess.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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AstralFlare Goon
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I'm going to call you scum partners with PP that's what. He rebutted your argument, you didn't seem convinced by his rebuttal, and yet you took your vote away and put it on Drone.
Who your entire case on is that he calls the 0x40 vote a policy lynch and that's scummy.@Cass, the points on rocnix are by and large not bad on first glance. Not sure what to make of him "distancing" from the 0x lynch. It looks like he just calls it a policy lynch repeatedly, and I agree that it is a little strange to frame it that way so much. Potentially in a scummy way. It's not really distancing himself from the lynch, it's sort of like he's discrediting the lynch as being meaningful.
I can see drone potentially being a good candidate. My reason for townreading rocnix was her doing a 180 on me but eh. I can think of a couple of reasons why that's a bad reason. Curious how drone responds to the part of the iso on him.
Sure you want pressure on Drone to see his reaction to the ISO, but your pressure on PP has yielded no scumhunting from him, so why not keep it there? Why go from a 3 man wagon to a 0 man one?-
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AstralFlare Goon
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AstralFlare
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AstralFlare Goon
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Go back for TNE ty. At least until she explains all her statements regarding claiming, and until does some actual scumhunting—not PR fishing. I want pressure on both TNE and PP. I want them both to talk.In post 597, Cass wrote:Feeling a bit awkward right now about not voting, but I'm torn.
- A PP vote would put him on L-1, I'm not convinced he is scum so not willing to do that. Should do another ISO, because his day 1 made me lean town on him.
- A Drone vote - I want to, but Implosion's switch to him makes me wary. Need to figure out why.
- Part of me wants to put the vote the vote back on TNE, as she's being infuriating and even the IC can't make sense of her reasoning. But the other part of me is still optimistinc that she'll clear it all up and really can solve the game (but how??).
I need to think about this. I want Drone to talk, TNE to talk, if there is an actual CC it'd better happen now - though I don't really understand why TNE would still expect one.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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Because there's a higher chance they will get CCed Day 2 since they don't know for certain which setup the game is using?In post 607, thenewearth wrote:
Can you think about it for a second? What would you trust more? A BP who claims D2 or a BP who claims pre-LyLo? Its highly unlikely for scum to claim BP on D2, but more likely on pre-lylo.In post 598, Cass wrote:that is: claiming before LyLo. But, in this situation, the BP would not even know they were targeted! There could have been some other target + a Jailkeeper.
Just think about why. You'll get it.
Eventually
I don't know.
You're deliberately being cryptic and trying to spread confusion, which is scummy.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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AstralFlare
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AstralFlare Goon
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AstralFlare
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AstralFlare Goon
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AstralFlare Goon
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TNE, you haven't answered these two of shannon's questions. Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum.2) Why did you fail to address my initial accusation that you were scum and fishing for roles? I even pinned it down to which team I thought you were in. If you think it's a ridiculous accusation, you could at least take the time to explain why.
5) Why are you being cryptic instead of engaging with the rest of us in a productive way? Saying thinks like 'you'll learn one day' doesn't help the town team you're playing with now. I'm reading over your posts again and I can't see anything that hints at a PR crumb, so there's got to be some other reason.
I think it's coming to a time when you need to make a substantive contribution to the game or you're going to get lynched. If you're town, this is your chance to make a real case to defend yourself. Even better, make a substantive case on someone else. I won't accept three line posts, cryptic stuff, and 'you'll see' as answers. Your play isn't doing anything to help town, and I regret that I was one who town read you yesterday.
You're higher on my list because I have a stronger and individual scumread on you. Actions like misreping timelines, actions like waffling make me scumread you, it's not dependent on PP being scum as well. Drone is on the same level as TNE because You/PP are my scumreads, Shannon/Cass/Chrimi are obvious town, so by PoE Drone and TNE are in third place.I'd like a bit more elaboration on this as well; from what I can read of your posts today, you seem to think that the way I'm acting is indicative of me being scum with PP, but you also described my play as being unlikely to come from scum who was angling for a mislynch. Has this just changed since I jumped off the wagon? If not, then why am I listed higher than PP, if my being scum is contingent on my being scum with PP? Do you have reason to scumread me individually at this point? Do you have reason to scumread PP individually at this point? Why is Drone on the same level as TNE? Last thing I can see you directly saying about him is calling him a misguided townie.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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.In post 658, shannon wrote:@AF - "Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum." - - is the implication here that I'm scum, or that I have info that would show TNE is?
Implication is that you're townie who's very convinced that your read is accurate, whether through PR or otherwise I don't know. I'm just getting that your TNE read is super super strong, and it has the potential to cloud your scumhunting.-
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AstralFlare Goon
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In post 625, shannon wrote:I will only move off TNE if we get to a situation like yesterday, where we're at deadline and need to get the lynch. If I am tonight's NK, lynch TNE tomorrow.
?In post 673, shannon wrote:Alright, no point hanging out on a case where I'm not going to get anything.
VOTE: Cass
I'll get around to everything else later-
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AstralFlare
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AstralFlare Goon
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