Newbie 1741 - Game Over

[Dunhallym]

Hi in there. I'm a bit late to the party so just to give a short introduction: it's my first game here but I used to play quite a lot of mafia on another website, so I'm a bit rusty but not a complete noob. However, our mafia slang was quite different from here and I'm not a native speaker so I appreciate it if you can develop acronyms when used for the first time and other specific terms, e.g the SvS I saw earlier (Scum vs Scum I guess?).
Now reading the thread, more to come.

[Dunhallym]

OK, now I’ve caught up few things I want to comment on:

@nn
First, could you please use an avatar, makes people stand out more easily. thanks.
Second

Hey everyone!
I've played some mafia in real life but never online. It'll be interesting to play without the help of body language tells - let's see how this goes!
I'll start us off with some strategy talk...
Since there are 7 town and 2 mafia it's unlikely that a day one lynch will be useful (since we're unlikely to land on a mafia). I'm in favor of a day one no lynch.

You said you played in RL, is no lynch something you would go for in RL mafia as well?
As has already been said, the main reason no lynch is a bad idea is that by deciding early to go for "no lynch” you gain no information. As for the “math” I’ll try to explain it in another post.

@ecane

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

You mentioned later that you wanted to achieve something with that. I agree that putting pressure on someone can teach information but everything in this post is made to tell “hey, this is a joke vote”, strongly lessening its effect IMO. Were you trying to achieve something else here?

@Morning Tweet

I do not really agree with Titus that a scum newbie would propose a no lynch, but we just started RVS, so it didn't come off as (at least to me) a "nn30 is 100% scum for saying this", as much as "there's possible newbscum motivation behind this suggestion, here's a good vote."

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

Town.

Is the L-2 vote without a direct reason too bold a move for scum?

I don’t like much this post. Gives me the feeling that Morning Tweet is keeping options open without committing which is a huge scumtell in my book.
In fact, now that I read further (i-e #81) it seems that Morning Tweet really is defending Titus. Why?

@Papa Zito

I have no idea what you're doing

QUESTION FOR THE AUDIENCE

I have accused Titus of being The Accursed Scum.
I have pushed for more votes on Titus.
I haven't really revealed

why

I feel so strongly about this.
Titus also hasn't really asked despite not knowing wtf I'm doing.

What do YOU think about this state of affairs?

Reading your original posts, I didn’t get the feeling your vote on Titus was that strong and I also don’t take “vote xx” as a huge push.

@algebra

A game without Titus is a better game
VOTE: Titus

Titus is at L-1 so we don't want to lynch the slot right now because we should get a good feel on the other players and possibly get some assosicative reads.

I believe it’s already been asked but I don’t think I saw the answer: did you really feel that strong about Titus and if so why?

@both algebra and Papa Zito: is there also some meta involved in your feel about Titus and if yes, can you enlighten us?

@shaddowez

Ooooh thanks.

VOTE: Titus

no lynches are bad, but so is voting for someone for legitimately asking a question. you could've at least waited for an answer y'know?

This is less than 20 posts into the game, and therefore should still be considered RVS, unless somebody has a good reason for a legit vote. Why do you think Titus voting nn as a possible random vote is any scummier than you voting Titus for said vote?

Arona already noted it but why do you mention Titus’ vote was “possible random” when it’s pretty clear (at least to me) that their vote was not random and nothing in arona’s post suggests they thought otherwise?
I’m not quoting the rest of the post as it’s too long but I didn’t like much the tone of some questions. Feels a bit fake to me. Weird as we seem to have somewhat similar styles.

@algebra

Looks like you're trying to get the easy wagon because you know you can in a newbie game

Why do you say you’re an “easy wagon”?

I see I didn’t comment much on the Titus issue. I disagree with their reason to vote for nn as for me their question could go both ways but I don’t see Titus’s vote as necessarily evil. Waiting to hear more on the “meta” as both main attackers are SE.
I began wanting to vote Morning Tweet but the fact they’re really defending Titus makes me more curious than suspicious at the moment. Algebra is a valid choice and I’d be willing but they’re already getting some heat. I’ll add some on Shaddowez: arona raises a valid issue IMO and as mentioned I didn’t like much their post. VOTE: Shaddowez
Sorry I didn’t bother checking the pronouns for people yet and I’ll sure look at the acronyms list.
And I'm used to being called Dunny or Dun if you prefer.

[Dunhallym]

About the "math" of not lynching.
On my original forum we had what we called the "odd/even" rule.
Starting with 9 people and assuming that 1) we don't lynch scum and 2) scum kill every night we lose on day 4 (7 left on D2, 5 on D3 and 3 on D4, 2 of which are scum)
If we don't lynch on day 1, and with the same assumptions we also lose on day 4 (4 people left, 2 of which are scum) but we have one less occasion to lynch scum. The reasoning is valid no matter the initial number: if you don't lynch day 1 with an odd number of players, you lose a lynch so it's bad. It's less bad if you start with an even number but even then other reasons (i-e gathering of informations) still apply.

[Dunhallym]

Arona already noted it but why do you mention Titus’ vote was “possible random” when it’s pretty clear (at least to me) that their vote was not random and nothing in arona’s post suggests they thought otherwise?

Since I was catching up, I was responding to things while also reading the thread. I read 35 in between my two responses. Since she hasn't made it clear in her first post I had read it as possibly random then, and then since it didn't directly relate to the second quote, I didn't explicitly state that. I should have, though.

That's not exactly my question. You answered about the contradiction in your post, but my question was about your original take on Titu's vote. As I said it was pretty clear it was not random so what made you mention it as "possible random"?

[Dunhallym]

@MorningTweet
you didn't answer my question: why do you defend Titus?

@shaddowez

That's not exactly my question. You answered about the contradiction in your post, but my question was about your original take on Titu's vote. As I said it was pretty clear it was not random so what made you mention it as "possible random"?

How is it clear it wasn't random? It was Titus' first vote of the game, which was the 11th(ish) post of the game, traditionally during RVS (Random Voting Stage). In her own post she says:

We randomly vote until we get a feel for who is scum

I'm not saying it was random as in "I'm going to use random.org and vote for whoever it tells me to"

Fair enough, rereading Titus's post, it's indeed not that clear. I'm clearly biased because in the games I've played elsewhere people suggesting no lynch on day one were sure to get votes, which is also why I don't find Titus's vote that suspicious. Is it different here? However, it is still pretty clear to me that arona also took the vote seriously, as did most other players.


@PapaZito

Meta is dumb. Don't do meta kids it only leads you to bad places.

Oh man thank you for reminding me about this subject whew.

No probs. I think meta can be useful if you are conscious of its/your limitations. And I know a few people that use it very effectively.
As you are tunneling on Titus for a point that is minor to me, and because algebra seems to be the same, I was wondering if this point was particulalrly bad because it is Titus.
Do you have other reads to share?

@Titus

Ok Zito is probably town.

Just need two more town to powerblock through this.

Why do you think Zito is town?

@algebra

@Titus to get out of RVS you need something to happen, so I decided to create that something with my hard push, which you probably suspected when you posed this question

A couple things here. 1) IIRC the game was already out of RVS at that point since there were some serious votes on; 2) as shaddowez already noted you put someone at L-1 without mentioning it; 3) you came back a few minutes later to say we shouldn't lynch Titus so early and try to look for connections first. The combination of 2 and 3 is the thing that bothered me most at the time and made me consider voting you. But the justification you give here, coupled with point 1, and with 4) the fact that I don't really get the impression that you're trying to stir discussion/scum hunt at the moment is worse.
So VOTE: algebra. I believe that's L-2.
BTW, could we get a vote count?

@Titus

Great, so according to your own words, we're far out of RVS but you're still joking around?

Also, given your behavior towards my push, my reply details the fact you are phased. That's pretty true. Stop trying to be bigman on campus if you're town. Stop joking around. A joke is ok, but retracting a vote based on its a joke doesn't make any sense. You seem to be doing whatever it is that gets people to like you. Well guess what I like odd balls.

What do you mean by "phased"? I agree with your point that nn is being agreable to everyone. I have a couple issues with them as well. I'll go next post not to make this one too long.

[Dunhallym]

@nn
Thanks for the av and fair enough for the RL stuff. I've not played in RL in a while and even forgot that in the popular French version of the game I used to play you don't even lynch anyone on day 1.

.
.../

I don't know if I'm being paranoid here or what, but I could potentially see this Titus/Papa Zito business being SvS.
Meh, probably just paranoid really. That's not the talk for now anyways... Everyone hasn't even posted yet...

Probs just paranoid. I think they're just they were just the two most active people so they ended up talking to each other.

I can't explain the feeling but this answer struck me as odd.

/...
@shaddowez @titus why are you voting algebra? Post 48 seems legit to me - lets gather more information before we go into the night.
/...

This initially struck me when I saw algebra was on your scum list in the post I quote below but in retrospect I see that the reason you suspect algebra is not contained in #48. So I just put it here for the record.

So here's where my thoughts are right now. Please chime in if you agree / disagree.

Townie feeling - Dunhallym - entered the game and gave some good analysis on what was going on. This is difficult to do as scum since pretending to do analysis on who is and isn't scum is difficult when you already know the answer.
Townie feeling - Aronagrundy - more of a feeling than anything, but she seems genuine town.

Scummy feeling - Algebra - quick to go along with a lynch vote but isn't offering much in the way of reasoning. Maybe because he knows the people he's putting votes on aren't scum.
Scummy feeling - Titus - five pages in and he won't let go of his scum tell on me. Is it so hard to believe that a newbie would think a no lynch is good?
Scummy feeling - Morning Tweet - post 81 was the tell. Read page three up to post 81. Tweet's analysis comes out of nowhere basically. As I said above it's difficult to do analysis as scum, no?

No reads - everyone else.

Whatever happens, I just want day one to be over. Nothing here is set in stone - I want to see if scum do before I make any concrete conclusions.

OK, so I don't mind the fact that you voted shaddowez or Papa Zito for the joke but I'm more bothered by the fact you left with your vote here when neither of them is among your "scummy feelings". I also don't like much the last sentence. It makes me feel that you have a hard time committing to anything and are ultra cautious. Of course nothing is set in stone on day 1, but you give your thoughts at time T according to what happened so far.
If you were any more experienced that would earn you my vote over algebra. As it is I keep an eye on you.

[Dunhallym]

@Zito

/...
I guess the part I'm

still having trouble with

is that a naked vote with 0 interaction doesn't really do much to ramp up pressure so I'm just completely at a loss to how you expected to achieve your intended result. I mean is this an ego thing? Do you think Random Newbie is gonna be so scared that they were voted by The Great and Mighty Titus that they'll just wet the bed and spill the goods?

No probs. I think meta can be useful if you are conscious of its/your limitations. And I know a few people that use it very effectively.
As you are tunneling on Titus for a point that is minor to me, and because algebra seems to be the same, I was wondering if this point was particulalrly bad because it is Titus.
Do you have other reads to share?

Yeah a lot of people claim meta helps them and more power to them I guess but in my experience it's trash and should be avoided at all costs. I'm not gonna make a big stink about this cuz it's not game relevant but if people wanna chat about it after that'd be fine. Re: Titus she has a rep but idgaf what she's done or said in other games, my only concern is what she says and does here. So when she posts moonbeams nonsense like this:

Great, so according to your own words, we're far out of RVS but you're still joking around?

Also, given your behavior towards my push, my reply details the fact you are phased. That's pretty true. Stop trying to be bigman on campus if you're town. Stop joking around. A joke is ok, but retracting a vote based on its a joke doesn't make any sense. You seem to be doing whatever it is that gets people to like you. Well guess what I like odd balls.

... I mean how am I supposed to ignore this. When did THOU SHALT NOT HAVE FUN become one of the Mafia commandments. It's a game ffs.

I have other reads yes. I don't want to share them atm tho. Don't make the mistake that a zillion other people have and decide that since I'm going hard after one particular player I'm ignoring everything else. zzz

I don't decide I observe and so far you have not really given thoughts on players other than Titus. You may have reads on other people but I can only work with what's on the thread. We still have plenty of time in the day (as long as no quick lynch occurs) so it's OK atm but I'll get concerned if it stays that way.
I'll reread your back and forth with Titus but one question for you: what would scum Titus gain from her initial vote on nn? I already said I disagree for the reason behind her vote but I still fail to see how it makes her obvious scum.

@ Titus: you didn't answer my question: why do you say Zito is Town?

@Papa Zito, Who said anything complaining about your focus?

A joke is fine.

Calling a vote a joke in RVS tends to be scum.

If we're in RVS, then nn should act like it's RVS. If he has scumreads, he should sort those.

Yes, nn30 is scared and you are undermining what I am doing. I voted him and later voted algebra. Nn30 still thought my vote was on them and I was only focused on them. If that's not scared aka phased, then your definition needs to change.

Can you explain what you mean with the bolded sentence?

@nn

Cleaned up version. I hope this works.

@Papa Zito

Thanks for pointing out the iso feature, very helpful.

Look at the questions I'm asking and observations I'm making. Do you think those further a scum agenda or a town one? Why?

Here are the things I see you doing.

1) Trying to force Titus' thought process into the open. This furthers a town agenda because it fosters transparency that we can later reference. We can use this information to either catch her in a fib or determine that she is indeed town.

2) You're tunneling Titus. This one could go either way. It could further the town agenda because you're genuinely trying to vet Titus and her actions. It could also further scum agenda because if everyone is focused on Titus, they aren't focused on the real scum (presumably you and your buddy).

3) You seem genuine?

Why am I having to drag this shit over multiple pages?

That's either really good fake anger, or genuine anger. I assume you're mad because, if you and Titus are both town, she is wasting your time.

I'm the towniest town the ever towned and you know it, that's why you aren't even accusing me of anything.

At the time this quote was merely hilarious. Now, four pages later, the only accusation or vote you've accumulated is my joke vote. This holds a little more weight than it did on page two. What could this mean?

Option 1) You're the towniest town that ever towned.

Option 2) You're the smoothest talking scum that ever scummed.

This exercise has illuminated that I should be getting a town vibe from you.

HOWEVER.

This game has also taught me not to trust anyone and especially not on day one. I've been burnt many times by trusting someone who I knew to be good at the game. I'm still inclined to stick with original feeling - no read - but I will acknowledge that the needle has moved towards town.

[/quote]

You forget option 3) there are other scummier options
More seriously, I still don't like (i-e find it scummy) that you are too agreeable to people but I like that you didn't change your playstyle after I mentioned it.

@arona: you didn't cast a new vote: why?

[Dunhallym]

@Dunhallym - I try not to be a jerk online. I'm pretty peeved at Titus right now and I still apologized for mis-gendering her. Just my style. I understand you taking it as a scum tell though. Of course scum want to be generally agreeable.

I also try not to be a jerk but that's not what I mean by being agreeable. I mean that you always get along with what people ask you to do and you do not antagonize people even when you claim to find them scummy. By antagonizing I don't mean being aggressive or mean but taking a firm stance.

[Dunhallym]

@Titus 3rd time I ask: you said Zito is town. Why? And I'll add this: Apart from algebra (and nn30 I guess), who do you suspect?

@algebra

Says 48 is good then goes back on it, and claims to be answering his own question which is obviously a lie

You misread it the same way I originally did: from what I understand nn30 doesn't think 48 is bad, and questions why it was the reason for shaddowez and Titus vote. I clearly remember it was shaddowez explanation, not so sure about Titus. But nn30 reasons to suspect you are that you pushed Titus wagon yet don't seem to be doing much since. Which I agree with.
My problem with nn30 is more the timing as already stated: names 3 suspects but doesn't vote for any of them until he's pushed to do so. Then there is the choice of the suspect: why put you at L-1 and not try to push his other suspects, especially MorningTweet who hasn't been pressured at all yet.

@arona: my question was badly formulated, sorry. What makes me curious is why did you feel the need to immediately remove vote from shaddowez, who wasn't in any danger of a lynch at that point, without having a new suspect to vote for instead? I realize this might be "cultural" but on day 1 I never unvote unless I feel there is a danger a player gets lynched, as it was the case with shaddowez removing vote from algebra.

[Dunhallym]

@algebra
I'm making a separate post to try and formulate better my issues about you and try to get a better feel on you.

In the post where you voted Titus, the "a game without Titus is a better game" can read as a joke vote. But this vote put Titus at L-1 and you only came back later to caution people not to vote Titus yet so we could investigate partnerships. If it had originally been a joke vote I would have expected you to remove it quickly because of the real hammer risk. Then later, you say you put the L-1 vote to generate discussion (sorry I don't quote exactly, I did it in the post I voted you, just trying to better explain my feelings now to get answers), which implies your suspicions of Titus aren't that strong. And I don't feel that you have been trying that much to get discussion going or to be scumhunting.

Are your suspicions on Titus really strong or not? Why?
Did your vote on Titus give the expected results?
What is your opinion of other players (apart from nn30 as this one's obvious)?
And the one I already asked without answer: you said you're an easy target: why do you feel you are an easy target when you are signed in as SE?

[Dunhallym]

@Dunn, I thought I said why Zito is town, probably. His push seems to come from understanding what I am thinking and pursuing it.

Nn30 does appear to be scared of rope, but this counter seems a little opportunistic.

Not sure I get the first part. That or you and Zito really like to play a closed cards game. That makes it difficult for me to make an opinion on you.
I like (I tend to use like = townie; don't like = scummy; nothing personal) the relaxed way he approaches things at first, I'm less fan of the way he pushes Titus later on on her use of words (i-e the process stuff). I'll wait to see what he has to offer later on.

Regarding Titus, the nn vote at first is a null tell for me. as already mentioned I have a hard time getting a feel on her: she has the highest post count yet she seems to be taking a back stance. At least that's the feeling I get.

I am paricularly concerned with Grundy and algebra there.

Grundy didn't understand my logic but immediately sheeps the logic when algebra is up for lynch...uhh what?

I agree with that and was going to ask arona about this point.

@arona
More precisely, you mentioned earlier that you agreed with the point raised against algebra (in the same post you voted Shaddowez), yet in #155, when you vote nn30, you mention continuous suspicions of Titus but don't mention algebra, which seems weird at that moment. So what is your take on algebra and would you be willing to vote for him?

About nn: already mentioned my suspicions on him. I'm also not a great fan of his interactions with Zito and me but there's something that makes me question his guilt: he put algebra at l-1. I didn't like the fact that he chose algebra over his other 2 suspects but would a newb scum put someone at l-1 when that's precisely what got algebra suspicion in the first place?

[Dunhallym]

@dunn: I agree that algebra wasn't (and hardly is now) actively scumhunting and often feels like he's more just providing commentary on what's happening, but at the same time hasn't changed his behavior despite the pressure of L-1. I feel like Titus and nb30 are better lynches st this point, so I don't want to lynch him right now.

As far as I remember Titus didn't change her behavior after getting at l-1 either. So if you consider it a "town tell" it should go both ways.

Yeah it's probably Grundy and algebra here. Nn30 just fears being lynched as town. Grundy and algebra are inconsistent and scumread each other but vote elsewhere.

@Dun, the very parts you don't like are what suggest Zito is town unless it's overly semantic. To find town, you need to find the process. So Zito wanting to understand mine is not a problem at all. If he plays dumb, then it's a problem.

I think you're the first person in a long while who has said I play a closed cards game. I tend to be quite open and overly blunt.

Already been noted but I don't remember algebra scumreading arona.
In your original post you said "His push seems to come from understanding what I am thinking and pursuing it." now you say he

wanted

to understand you. I get the second phrasing, I didn't get the first one precisely because if he had understood you he wouldn't have pushed the way he did, unless there was some hidden thought process that you both share but I don't get. As to the discussion itself, the reason I don't like it is that to me it looks like nitpicking. If it had been in the middle of other things you were both doing it wouldn't have bothered me but as it is nearly all of your and Zito content are in this back and forth. I'm not pushing the issue at the moment as this is a slow game (I'm more used to a 32h/8h rythm, and the reason I try it here is that I cannot play games this fast anymore) but I can't shake the feeling. That's why I actually liked ecane for suggesting the pa could be SvS because I kinda felt the same way.

When nn30 flips red we should definitely consider Titus

When nn30 flips red we should definitely consider Titus

@Algebra

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

We've only just gotten out of the stage of the game where Titus is tunneling on me. Now that she's moved her scum radar to someone other than me, she's suddenly suspicious? How does that even make sense?

Your contribution to this game has consisted of votes (without accompanying logic) or votes (with an accompanying one liner). You've contributed basically nothing of substance as to

why

you feel the way you feel. If you're actually town (unlikely) this is frustrating to play with.

[Dunhallym]

I accidentally posted it before finishing so I'm starting again where it went wrong:

In your original post you said "His push seems to come from understanding what I am thinking and pursuing it." now you say he

wanted

to understand you. I get the second phrasing, I didn't get the first one precisely because if he had understood you he wouldn't have pushed the way he did, unless there was some hidden thought process that you both share but I don't get. As to the discussion itself, the reason I don't like it is that to me it looks like nitpicking. If it had been in the middle of other things you were both doing it wouldn't have bothered me but as it is nearly all of your and Zito content are in this back and forth. I'm not pushing the issue at the moment as this is a slow game (I'm more used to a 32h/8h rythm, and the reason I try it here is that I cannot play games this fast anymore) but I can't shake the feeling. That's why I actually liked ecane for suggesting the paranoid thought that this could be SvS because I kinda felt the same way.
Other than the exchange, you both make occasional comments here and there and I mostly agree with you both. Zito said he didn't want to share his other reads yet. fine, I can wait. Your other reads thus far (that is until you started pursuing the arona/algebra partnership) were just "ecane is town" and "Zito is town" (or prob town) without much justification.

When nn30 flips red we should definitely consider Titus

If you are innocent, which I seriously doubt at this point, could you please at least bother answering questions?

When nn30 flips red we should definitely consider Titus

@Algebra

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

We've only just gotten out of the stage of the game where Titus is tunneling on me. Now that she's moved her scum radar to someone other than me, she's suddenly suspicious? How does that even make sense?

Your contribution to this game has consisted of votes (without accompanying logic) or votes (with an accompanying one liner). You've contributed basically nothing of substance as to

why

you feel the way you feel. If you're actually town (unlikely) this is frustrating to play with.

algebra always claimed he suspected Titus, which you should know since you claimed to be voting him for pushing the lynch on Titus, so he isn't "suddenly suspicious" of her. What are your thoughts now about Titus?

[Dunhallym]

And now I screwed up with the quote tags. So I'll just repeat what I told algebra:
If you are innocent, which I seriously doubt at this point, could you please at least bother answering questions?

[Dunhallym]

Quick question: what do t'y and ai mean?
I guess the I in the second one is innocent ?

@algebra
Are you deliberately ignoring me? Why don't you answer any of my questions?

[Dunhallym]

ty not t'y. Stupid phone corrected.

[Dunhallym]

If I miss one of your questions just quote it again and bold my name

Is not one question is all of them. But I Drumaroad it in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p8352183

[Dunhallym]

Summarised not Drumaroad. That's why i generally avoid posting from the phone.

[Dunhallym]

Empoof voted arona not algebra.

[Dunhallym]

@arona

Since you have re-quoted algebra's post 172, can you explain to me how it suggests that in the event that Titus's theory of an algebra/arona scum team is wrong then Titus becomes suspicious.

@Empoof

Since you don't have a problem with arona's interpretation, same question goes to you. Also: did you have time to read my posts?

I'll try to find time today to go in more length as to my opinion on other players and on why I think algebra is the better lynch for today even though I share concerns on nn30 as well.

[Dunhallym]

Warning: this is going to be quite long. The longest part are about arona and Empoof as they have been quite active lately. I'm trying to give an opinion on everyone except algebra and nn30 whom I keep for later. I'll try to do it tonight too, but no promise. I've just included here what I think of possible partnerships with algebra and nn30 as this is relevant for the point I want to make next.

Aronagrundy

Unlike Empoof and Titus I liked the fact that arona tried to push Shaddowez earlier. Not only because I shared his concern over Shaddowez but also because pushing suspects that are not directly in the spotlight is a good thing to do during the day. I’m less a fan of subsequent play. I called him on not revoting after removing vote from Shaddow. As I tried to explain later on, it’s not so much the fact that he didn’t cast a new vote than the fact he felt the need to quickly remove vote from Shaddow when there was no urgent reason to do so without having another suspect in line. I noted it as “cultural” because nobody else seemed bothered by that while it’s a big thing on my home forum. Point being that scum do not want to antagonize people too much and are more careful with where their vote stand. Then there is the vote on nn30, which, as Titus has already noted, comes at a very opportunistic time to move the focus off algebra, especially when you consider that arona didn’t mention algebra at all in the post where he voted nn while he previously said he suspected algebra (see the exchange I had with arona on the matter). There are 2 additional points: first the interpretation of algebra’s #172. I’ll wait on arona’s (and Empoof’s) answer on that one but the fact arona used this flawed logic (algebra/arona town Titus scum) to push the accusation on Empoof doesn’t sit right with me. Second is the lengthy defense arona puts: I need to reread those with more attention but I do not share Empoof’s view and find those posts overly defensive. SO I’ve come from leaning Town to leaning scum on arona, with algebra as a very likely partner. Very unlikely to be nn30’s partner IMO.

Ecane/Empoof

My initial feeling on ecane was good but when I reread her, 2 things bothered me: 1) she mentions her intention was to vote Shaddowez but won’t after nn30 voted for him, yet she never explained why she had this vote intention; 2) she did one of the things I blame algebra for, i-e claim to want to provoke discussion by a vote without doing much else afterwards. I meant to call her on it but that’s when I saw her being replaced, which I thought explained 2). As for 1) I’ll never get an answer on that one. Now, I liked a lot Empoof’s debut: he asked questions that I felt are good and I liked his playstyle. But now I really dislike the way he backed off of arona, especially after getting 2 votes on him. I also really dislike this quote :

This might sound bad but I don't feel the need to answer everything you posed towards me. If you ask nice I will but yeah. It felt like a lot of nickpicky things that I think in the end we'd see eye to eye on or just agree to disagree. If you want this, i'll do it, clarity is cool. But not tonight lol.

My issue here is not that he won’t answer everything but the overjustification of why he won’t do this and the “It felt like a lot of nickpicky things that I think in the end we'd see eye to eye on or just agree to disagree”. Arona’s “case” on Empoof seems to be mostly that Empoof pushes Titus theory that arona and algebra are scumbuddies so that once either turns innocent we lynch Titus. As mentioned above (see the paragraph on arona) I think this logic is flawed as Titus can be wrong without being scum, and therefore I think arona’s case on Empoof is flawed, but it’s not “a lot of nitpicky things”.
So in the end I’ll put Empoof as null, leaning town. If algebra is guilty, then Empoof is a likely partner, much less likely with nn30 given Empoof's vote.

MorningTweet

I’m liking him thus far. He seems genuinely trying to get the grasp of the online game and has good insight. I had my doubts at first but liked his answer to my question about what felt to me a defense of Titus. Leaning Townie on that one.
I think MorningTweet could be partner with either algebra or nn30.

Papa Zito

My opinion on Papa Zito has not changed. I hold opinion until I see his reads on other players and he explains why he didn’t want to share them earlier.
Since his interactions have mainly been with Titus, it’s hard to assess potential partnerships with algebra or nn30. I can’t remember interactions with the first one but there are some with nn30. As I already said in a previous post, I didn’t like much the way nn30 interacted with Papa Zito. I’ll need to reread that but I ended with the impression that partnership was unlikely. I’d also like input from others on that.

Shaddowez

I also need to reread Shaddowez. I didn’t like much his early posts (as explained when I voted for him) and I don’t recall him being very vocal since he earnt and lost several votes. He led the votes on nn30 based on the sequence of nn30's vote on algebra.
I’m not discounting him as a potential algebra’s partner in spite of the fact he started the first wagon on algebra. I think his latest vote makes partnership with nn30 near impossible.

Titus

The main thing since I posted opinion on Titus is the algebra/arona theory which has merits. Yet I still feel that Titus is taking a back seat, i-e not pushing things very hard.
I don’t think Titus could be partnered with algebra, based on algebra’s earlier vote and Titus current position. Partnership with nn30 is possible.

[Dunhallym]

Aronagrundy

Unlike Empoof and Titus I liked the fact that arona tried to push Shaddowez earlier. Not only because I shared his concern over Shaddowez but also because pushing suspects that are not directly in the spotlight is a good thing to do during the day. I’m less a fan of subsequent play. I called him on not revoting after removing vote from Shaddow. As I tried to explain later on, it’s not so much the fact that he didn’t cast a new vote than the fact he felt the need to quickly remove vote from Shaddow when there was no urgent reason to do so without having another suspect in line. I noted it as “cultural” because nobody else seemed bothered by that while it’s a big thing on my home forum. Point being that scum do not want to antagonize people too much and are more careful with where their vote stand. Then there is the vote on nn30, which, as Titus has already noted, comes at a very opportunistic time to move the focus off algebra, especially when you consider that arona didn’t mention algebra at all in the post where he voted nn while he previously said he suspected algebra (see the exchange I had with arona on the matter). There are 2 additional points: first the interpretation of algebra’s #172. I’ll wait on arona’s (and Empoof’s) answer on that one but the fact arona used this flawed logic

(algebra/arona town Titus scum

) to push the accusation on Empoof doesn’t sit right with me. Second is the lengthy defense arona puts: I need to reread those with more attention but I do not share Empoof’s view and find those posts overly defensive. SO I’ve come from leaning Town to leaning scum on arona, with algebra as a very likely partner. Very unlikely to be nn30’s partner IMO.

I have explained before why I (INITIALLY) agreed with post 172. Titus was pushing algebra/myself as the scumteam. Algebra responds (right after I call out titus on her bizarre accusation that algebra is scumreading me) by saying that if nn30 is scum (meaning that algebra/myself can't be the scumteam), then titus should be put under suspicion. I shared this initial reaction. nn30 responded to 172 by saying it was illogical and I disagreed because I agreed with it at the time. Also can you clarify the bolded part because there's a symbol not showing up on my computer. I've said before that I think titus is town now.

I mean, if I come off as overly defensive it's because I think titus's case against me is wrong (as you yourself have pointed out, she's making stuff up about my relationship with algebra). Like I'd rather not get mislynched. Also I've never been seriously accused of being scum when I'm town before so there's that.

algebra says if nn30 is scum then Titus is likely scum because (I guess) Titus's accusation can be seen as a diversion from nn30. nn30 says it's illogical because Titus pushed nn30 for most of the game before. It could be distancing, I think it's unlikely (see post to come). Now your logic is inferring that algebra town = nn30 scum, which is flawed. There is a (admittedly slim) possibility that both algebra and nn30 are town.

[Dunhallym]

Sorry I didn't detail the boded part: algebra/arona scum leads to Titus scum.
I understand that you say you don't believe it now, but you implied that's what algebra meant and I think you make false assumptions (see above).

[Dunhallym]

OK, so this is to explain why at this point I think algebra is the best lynch for today.

Algebra
algebra has posted only one liners and votes so far. The l-1 on Titus was bad. Empoof is right that the warning came within minutes of the votes but I still dislike it based on a previous game from algebra which is just over so can now be discussed (at least that’s how I understand the rules, I hope I’m not wrong): check algebra’s first game. I summarized a great deal of my questions and concerns in #158 so I won’t repeat what I said there. Now, the fact algebra didn’t answer any of my questions is really annoying me: I had already asked most of the questions I raise in #158 in previous posts and made a separate post as I thought algebra could have missed them in the middle of bigger posts. Now, I find his lack of response annoying but to me it also indicates that algebra is not really following the game. Empoof suggests that algebra is a stubborn innocent and arona puts in his defense that he hasn’t changed his attitude after getting many votes. Short posts and “stubborn” attitude seem indeed to be algebra’s style but it doesn’t change the fact that his attitude in this game is anti-town, as arona himself agreed. Now, maybe algebra’s antitown attitude doesn’t make him automatically scum but it’s a question I want answered ASAP as I don’t want the issue to drag until we reach Lylo or Mylo. It’s a mistake I’ve made before and I don’t want to repeat it.

Nn30
I’ve already stated before my points against nn30. I can go over it again if you wish, just not tonight. However, I can see an overeager newb playing this way. Unlike algebra, nn30 gives us material to work with.
Finally there’s one last point and that’s why I mentioned potential partnerships in my previous posts.
Possible partners for algebra are everyone except for Titus and, I think, nn30. I could maybe see more experienced players doing the gamble that was nn30’s vote on algebra, but in the present case I think it’s highly unlikely. I let you judge for yourself if you think I can be algebra’s partner. Most likely IMO is arona but there are other options.
IMO, possible partners for nn30 are Papa Zito, Morning Tweet, Titus and (from the POV of other townies) probably me. I’m town. I think Morning Tweet is likely town. As I said in my previous post, I’d like other’s input on nn30 and Zito’s interaction. Now, nn30 does seem like the sort of player that would follow advice from a more experienced partner, and could have avoided certain mistakes. Which makes me doubt the Zito/nn partnership, and together with the early mess Titus‘s early vote on nn30 created, it also makes me doubt the Titus/nn30 partnership.
So I think algebra is more likely scum than nn30.

[Dunhallym]

UNVOTE:
There are a few things I want to answer to and I'd also like to hear more from zito and shadow.

[Dunhallym]

OK I have a bit of time so I'll try to address the points I wanted to address yesterday morning. Hopefully I won't fall asleep before I'm done.

[Dunhallym]

@arona

When nn30 flips red we should definitely consider Titus

OK this is algebra’s famous post 172™. I quote it again.

My original logic was that because titus's case was wrong (and it would be wrong if nn30 flipped scum), then she had a good chance of being scum. I wasn't really thinking about it in the context of the relationship of nn30 and titus. I changed my mind to thinking titus is town regardless of her case being right or not.

My case on empoof has a lot to do with titus being town so I'm not sure what you're talking about me pushing this logic of titus being scum.

Of course my assumption (that algebra is saying titus is scum because her case is wrong) could be false, but so could yours (that algebra is saying that titus is distancing herself from nn30). That's why I've asked algebra to clarify what he meant.

Now reread post 172™: nn30 flips red means nn30 is guilty so algebra says “when nn30 is proven scum we should look at Titus” which is equivalent to saying nn and Titus are likely partners. I don’t see how this can read differently. Titus voted nn in the beginning, hence why I talked of distancing. Now regarding the bolded part, I’m not saying that YOU think Titus is scum, I’m saying that you are accusing Empoof of trying to get us to lynch first you/algebra then Titus because of the following logic: algebra/arona is false means Titus is scum for suggesting it so once either of you flips town, then we lynch Titus. I didn’t see Empoof suggesting that and in fact, it was you who pushed this theory.

Now your logic is inferring that algebra town = nn30 scum, which is flawed. There is a (admittedly slim) possibility that both algebra and nn30 are town.

Explain this further. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't state this anywhere. I think you're referring to the part where I'm trying to explain what I saw as algebra's logic in 172. I meant it as, if nn30 is scum, then algebra and I can't both be scum which doesn't need explanation. This doesn't mean the same as if algebra is town, then nn30 is scum. They could both be town or both could be scum, but I agree that these two possibilities are unlikely and that one of the two is probably scum.

Sorry, my English betrayed me. I meant your logic implies that algebra town= nn scum, not “infers”. I’ll try to be clearer. algebra indeed seems to suggest that Titus is pushing algebra/arona to distract us from nn30. However, you are stretching things. Because if algebra and nn are both innocent then nn30 will not flip red and Titus cannot be his partner. So by interpreting 172 the way you do, you imply that algebra town is equivalent to nn scum.
Now I wanted to clarify this but I’m too tired to make my mind on what to think regarding arona. Input welcome.

*snip*

That question seems kind of general.

Because of the small number of players in this game and the fact that the only way we have to catch scum is to lynch someone, I don't think that we should lynch someone unless we think that they're scum.

I’m not sure that I get the bolded part.

[Dunhallym]

@Titus

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

You forgot me
A few questions for you:
1) you said earlier you had reads but didn't want to share them yet. Why?
2) what were those reads and are they different from the ones you express now that you've reread things ?

[Dunhallym]

@algebra

@dunhallym

yes, gut.
no
everyones town except nn30 and titus
im always an easy target, usually described as a "liability"

*snip*

going to reread titus and reach into my gut and see what i get when i take my hand out

Waiting to see your take on Titus.
Regarding the bolded part, I see what you mean and I’m sorry if you feel frustrated because of it. But at the same time, you don’t seem to be following the game or making much effort to at least answer questions so I think it is also up to you to try and change that.
Now, I still have some problems with you. As I know that, being of the “reasonable type, I tend to always suspect “stubborn” players, I had a look at your previous games, in which you were town. And in your very first posts, you talked about players being at l-1 and how that’s dangerous especially in a newb game, etc… and you genuinely seemed scared about it. Now when I compare this to the way you put Titus at l-1 when all you have is a “gut feeling” about her, I see a discrepancy. I also feel that even though your playstyles are similar (very short posts and not many explanations) you were had stronger opinions and did a better job explaining them. The second point is also about this l-1 post: you claimed you wanted to stir discussion with it but you've not really contributed to the conversation. I already mentioned it but I'm always wary of this attitude. And third, the way you came to quote Titus suggests to me that you may be following the game more closely than you otherwise seem to, and that's not sitting right with me.

And with this I'm off to bed.

[Dunhallym]

This is of course directed

@Zito

. As hilarious as it may sound I somehow mixed them up.

@Titus

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

You forgot me
A few questions for you:
1) you said earlier you had reads but didn't want to share them yet. Why?
2) what were those reads and are they different from the ones you express now that you've reread things ?

[Dunhallym]

@ arona

Now that I understand better your POV, I need to think on it. Just not tonight: I'm sick and too tired for that.

@Zito

I see your POV, and I admit that I sometimes lie or hide things I think as town. there is just one issue IMO: as town your job is not only to find scum but also to do your best to show you're town. But the attitude you describe is also easier to play as scum, which is why I said it would start to bother me on the long run. I forgot to ask but what do you mean by arona and Empoof as "bros"? Regarding the "buddy chatter", I agree that it's too early to base votes on a possible relationship but I think that some relationships are already pretty unlikely and determining those can help.

@Empoof

UNVOTE: nn30
VOTE: shadowez
I need to do some soul searching and I want to see shadow's sultry IC words in this thread

@Dun I admittedly havent kept up with you very well. Moving from skim to read-through after class. Was there a reason you were holding your vote?

I removed vote from algebra because he was at l-1 and I didn't want a hammer to happen too soon. I think that I've made it pretty clear that algebra is my favourite lynch for today, at least unless he changes.
I'm not a great fan of Shaddow either and still want to have a look back at him, just not tonight.

[Dunhallym]

@nn30

I had actually given the "math", aka the "odd-even" rule in my second or third post in response to your original question. Yet you apparently didn't read it.
Why do you bring this back now?

[Dunhallym]

So I’ve reread Shaddow and I have several questions/comments.

Titus, this isn't like you....what's your current read on empoof and Morning Tweet?

@shaddowez
You initially scumread algebra, and now (I assume since you're voting for him) nn30. Have your reads on these two changed at all?

I never stopped scum reading algebra, I had unvoted since he was at L-1 and I didn't want a quickhammer that early in the day (same reason I'm not actually revoting him right now). nn30 still reads somewhat scummy to me, but since I don't see him and algebra as a scum team, I feel less strongly about him being scum.

UNVOTE:

I don’t get this: your vote on nn30 came from after he put the l-1 vote on algebra, yet you now feel less strongly about nn being scum because you don’t see him as partner with algebra? Does it mean that you originally suspected nn as algebra’s partner? Or what do you mean here?

So, I'm going to hop on the unpopular bandwagon here and do this:

VOTE: Titus

She's backtracking whenever she's confronted about anything, and her reasoning is lackluster at best. This doesn't read like Titus' town game at all.

Examples: 61 - algebra never uses the term "preflip associations", so no idea where that's coming from. 188 she says she never had a strong scumread on nn30, but 35, 37, and 74 all seem to contradict that.

@algebra

- did you ever reread Titus, and if so what do you think?

Why do you ask this question specifically to algebra?

*snip*

shadow how you doing over there

Getting ready for an injection in my spine, so good I guess? Thanks for asking! Was there actually a point to this since you haven't addressed me in a while? (And in searching to make sure I didn't miss anything, I discovered it was you who asked about the Titus/Zito thing)

Yeah I actually agree with Titus.

Which might mean I'm officially clinically insane I dunno.

VOTE: shaddowez

So Titus said she'd have to consider me, but hasn't actually voted me yet. To me, that means she's still trying to decide if I'm scum or not, not that she definitely thinks I'm scum. How does agreeing with her 251 necessarily equate to a vote?
*snip*

Algebra never said preflip associations, he said associative reads. How very semantic of you.

This is mostly my fault. I was literally searching for the phrase you used and didn't actually go back through his posts to see the phrasing. That said, I don't like algebra's "reminder" after you clarified.

I'm still hesitant based on this not being the town!Titus I'm used to, but not enough to have a vote there.

UNVOTE:

Game apart, I hope you are doing fine.
Back to game: Zito already mentioned that he didn’t have to wait on Titus to suspect you, but he had also expressed several times his concern over you in previous posts, so your answer seems overly defensive.
I also hate the unvote from Titus. You mention townTitus but what about scumTitus. If you use meta then why use only part of it?

In conclusion

I understand the votes on Shaddow but before I decide anything I have a question for Shaddow voters: does your suspicion of Shaddow come mostly from Shaddow’s posts or to a potential connection with algebra? I think I already know Zito and Titus’s answer but please also answer.

[Dunhallym]

I'm sorry as I have much less time this week than I had last week. To clarify my position, I'm still of the opinion that we should lynch algebra today but I'd like answers to my question before deciding if I could compromise on Shaddowez. I'm aware that there is little time left and that some players are V/LA on week-ends so I'll try to find some time tomorrow morning.

[Dunhallym]

I have a question for Shaddow voters: does your suspicion of Shaddow come mostly from Shaddow’s posts or to a potential connection with algebra? I think I already know Zito and Titus’s answer but please also answer.

I don't attempt to find partners until I have a flip. My vote is purely on Shadow's actions in the game.

I thought as much. I didn't want to explain it now but as we run short on time I'll do. My major issue is this: if both nn and algebra are town what did scumShadow have to gain by the whole Titus mess ?

[Dunhallym]

I'm still of the opinion that we should lynch algebra today

^

Algebra could be buddied with a few different people imo. Shadow looked scummy to me because he was derailing algebra's wagon with a weak Titus one, suggesting he's trying to protect his partner. I don't see reason for scum shadow to have done that otherwise. He could have just let the wagon do it's thing and bam mislynch.

However if shadow is town, then algebra still has a reasonably good chance of being scum.

Pedit: Are you willing to elaborate on shadow's scummy actions, aside from the Titus wagon?

I see I cross posted with Tweet but we think alike. And on this good night.

[Dunhallym]

Since I don't have any more reasons not to vote VOTE: algebra
And I'll state it: my worry with the Shaddow vote is that, as I have stated, I don't see why scumShaddow would do what he did if he's not partnered with algebra or nn30 (much less probable). I think algebra's alignment will teach us more on this matter. In addition, I dislike leaving algebra for tomorrow because one of two events will happen: we decide from the start that algebra is tomorrow's lynch no matter what, which is bad play or we finally lynch someone else and algebra will keep being a distraction (at least to me).
I'll elaborate more on that when I have time (probably tomorrow if the day has not ended).

[Dunhallym]

@nn
Most common reasons for NKs can be: getting rid of a player that suspects you (can backfire), trying to frame somebody else by killing someone who suspects them or PR hunting. Then there can be other reasons: trying to provide as little information as possible, etc... There's also the "healer threat" to take into account (on our website docs are called healers): the main town reads are likely to be protected.
I'll need to ISO arona as well but from memory he first accused Titus for the algebra/arona theory, then decided that Titus was likely town and turned on Empoof. I disagreed with his reasoning, and even entertained a crackpot theory linking him and Titus (which is why I pushed him on his reasoning). I had him as a scumlean as well, and Titus obviously suspected him in conjonction with algebra. I think the kill would make sense for algebra as it kills the algebra/arona theory.
I will try to do more on Saturday (not much time today or tomorrow).
For now, I still want algebra dead, but day 2 is also time to reevaluate things.

[Dunhallym]

@algebra

@Empoof I could explain in more detail when I get on a pc, but I was just going to originally say that I was catching up, but I saw the pagetop VC and saw that shadow was L-1.

There are a lot of things you' ll need to do when you get to a PC. You also have to give us your "case" on Titus as you have failed to do thus far.
And a few more questions: I agree with you that self preservation is NAI. However, you didn't really have a reason to rush. nn30 had said he would hammer Shaddowez, while nobody from the Shaddow mob had said they would switch to you and you wouldn't have been lynched without being requested to role claim. You said you'd be mild V/LA but you kept posting for some time after the hammer. In addition, IIRC when you hammered the discussion was coming back to Titus, whom you have repeatedly named as one of your prime suspects even if you didn't really back it up. So why did you rush into hammering Shaddowez at this precise time?

[Dunhallym]

@Empoof

Vote Count 1.10

Find more ways to work ‘plinth’ into daily conversations.

shaddowez (5): Papa Zito, Empoof, aronagrundy, Titus, algebra

algebra (4)

: nn30, Morning Tweet, Dunhallym, shaddowez

Not Voting

:

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-10-02 15:42:07)

We need to talk about these wagons rn.
arona NK benefits algebra scum teams imo. If we're following MT logic it benefits Papa scum teams too.

I need

V/LA for 3 days

I can't think very well.

FTR I don't have a problem with an algebra lynch.

But when your IC isn't even voting it's like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This post is garbage and looks like scum hedging bets on the lynch. If algebra is red Papa should be looked at.
This votecount could easily be v/v and it's really upsetting me because that algebra hammer was so bad.
^Both these thoughts are new from a flu readthrough. I am way less confident in town!Zito atm

I am way less confident in all my town reads now but that Papa one is the biggest switch

I agree with you: I think it's very likely there's at least 1 scum in {Empoof, Titus, Zito}: if algebra is scum, it's likely his partner was on the other mob and if algebra is town, I think the scum team benefitted from keeping him alive so he could serve as a good lynch for today.
You mentioned Zito, what is your opinion on Titus? Also, why did you think Zito would get NKed?

@Titus

That would suggest Dunn given how Grundy treated Dunn in his last posts but *shrug* not 100% sure there.

OK, so you kinda think that arona's kill leads to me. Do you think I'm likely scum? Your vote is on algebra, so I guess you suspect him: do you think I'm algebra's partner?
What are your thoughts about Empoof and Zito?

@ Zito

What are your thoughts about Empoof and Titus?

[Dunhallym]

...if algebra is scum, it's likely his partner was on the other mob and if algebra is town, I think the scum team benefitted from keeping him alive so he could serve as a good lynch for today...

Option 1) Algebra is town. Scum push for a Shadow vote in order to to keep Algebra around for an easy D2 lynch.

Option 2) Algebra is scum. Scum push for a Shadow vote in order to save their buddy.

In both cases the people on the Shadow wagon need to be scrutinized.

Titus started the Shadow wagon (not with a vote, but with suspicion) in 251. Papa followed it up with a vote in 260 which Empoof then jumped on in 278. Arona hopped on in 286 and Titus followed up with a vote in 287.

I think it's safe to remove Zito from the scum discussion. He was the first to vote Shadow - scum don't like to rock the boat and stick their neck out that way.

By the same logic, I think it's safe to remove Titus as well. She's done the most scum hunting this game. She's suspected and voted for half the town by now.

All that leaves is Empoof.

When Empoof entered the game (194) he had me pinned as his top scum. Since then, he 1) voted Arona and subsequently unvoted him after the two wrote each other books 2) voted for me in 222 and 3) voted for Shadow.

For one, I don't like how he voted for Shadow.

UNVOTE: nn30
VOTE: shadowez
I need to do some soul searching and I want to see shadow's sultry IC words in this thread

This is relevant because he wrote quite a bit about why he voted arona (215) but is comparatively silent on why he votes for Shadow.

The timing of this vote is also suspect - he hopped on a popular wagon. There was no boat to rock by the time he joins.

Then there's his post in 439 where he tries to throw some shade on Papa Zito - this feels thin at best.

For someone who had me pinned as his top scum, he's done next to nothing to scum hunt me.

I'm not a fan.

Interesting.
Regarding the part I bolded: IIRC, Zito mentioned suspicions on Shaddow before Titus's 251.
Can you explain a few things about Titus: where has she done the most scum hunting and what does "She's suspected and voted for half the town by now." mean? IIRC, you had Titus high on your suspect list yesterday, when did your opinion change and why?

[Dunhallym]

That's mostly it, but given the content of Zito's posts below, it looks to me like it started with "concern" and became stronger suspicion as the conversation went by.

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

I'm also generally V/LA on weekends - the last time I posted was Saturday night, which was actually more recent than yours prior to you today. Why is it okay for you to be away, but not me?

I said presence. AKA you're not doing anything.

I also have double your posts. :3

You

could

but my point would still stand.

Your approach here is interesting because instead of either taking what I said to heart (and my meaning there is clear let's not play games) and actually doing something you instead try to cast it back at me and paint me as hypocritical. This is pretty classic "avoid the argument; attack the attacker" strategy.

You're doing a good job trying to muddy some very clear waters. Let's try this again.

My comment has nothing to do with postcounts or time spent V/LA. My comment was about presence. Which I further clarified as "you're not doing anything." Because you're not. I did ISO dives on everyone in the game and in yours I see a player sitting on the sidelines taking the occasional potshot but not really getting his hands dirty.

As for your second post - I agree that asking you questions or commenting on individual posts would be a way to engage you sure. Looks like I chose not to do that!

[Dunhallym]

@Titus

VOTE: Papa Zito

I kinda want to go investigating for a moment.

Care to explain the vote?
And you didn't answer my questions.

BTW, I'll be mild V/LA for a great part of the week. I'm usually not around on Mondays but I'll also be off on Tuesday and not sure how much I'll be able to participate on Wednesday and Thursday. Sorry about that. I hope that will leave you all time to answer my questions.

[Dunhallym]

It’s time for more questions. I’m sure you all missed it. Most are repeats of previous questions that didn’t get answers.

@algebra

See post 443

@ Morning Tweet

If you think algebra is likely town due to the kill, who are your suspects now?

@Empoof

If I get it, you suspect Zito only by association with algebra. What are your thoughts on Titus?

@Papa Zito

What are your thoughts on Titus and Empoof?

@Titus

You think the arona kill points to me but you vote for Zito: why? What are your thoughts on Empoof?

@nn30

Can you point to specific parts that show that “When [Titus] wagons someone, she pushes hard”? (see post 448)

I’ve decided to channel my inner Zito and keep my own thoughts to myself until I get my answers.

[Dunhallym]

Thanks to both of you.

@Titus

I have an additional question for you: when I asked yesterday, Zito and Empoof both said they suspected Shaddowez based on his action. You suspected an algebra/Shaddowez scumteam and thought Shaddowez's push on you was to distract from algebra. Yet, later on, you were the one that pushed Tweety then nn30 (IIRC) to give intent on Shaddowez, yet you never suggested you may revert to algebra. Why?

[Dunhallym]

@Dunhally - wasn't Titus clear in saying that she'd come after Algebra today?

@Morning, I fully intend to come after algebra tomorrow.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.

Yes, you're misunderstanding, I used "revert to algebra" meaning switching back from Shaddowez to algebra yesterday.

[Dunhallym]

@492, I am investigating Zito by voting him. Not particularly liking his OMGUS stance here.

@497, Why would I revert to Algebra day 1? A scumread dead is a scumread dead. I am deliberately testing things right now. What is your read on algebra, if scum, why are you not voting?

Thoughts on Empoof?

On the second part: to me, algebra was a better day 1 lynch, as I stated yesterday. If nothing else, Shaddow was at least contributing. But the reason I'm asking you is that you started your suspicion on Shaddowez as algebra's partner, and it still appears when you vote Shaddowez.

@Shaddowez, Again you reference my "stubbornness" in talking with Zito.

This is important on three fronts. 1) You used it to white knight me when a wagon developed on me. 2) It's not a fair representation of what happened. It's more accurate to say Zito and I were talking past each other.

3) You suddenly acted as if those pages were scummy later, when needing to stop voting algebra.

People picked up on this as well. You're asking me to essentially rehash what others filling in for me. I am not in the mood to rehash.

Your retract your vote on me right after being called on it. This type of sheepish attitude doesn't work for an IC. You are not answering or resolving things.

I'm fine with going here.

VOTE: Shaddowez

The algebra/Shaddowez relationship looks like a great part in your suspicion of Shaddowez yet you pushed for a Shaddowez lynch rather than an algebra one. I'm asking why.

My read on algebra has not changed. I'm not voting because I don't want to rush the day so I can give my full thoughts before day ends in case I'm NKed. Which implies getting answers and doing some work.

[Dunhallym]

Tweety should also be back. I'd like to hear more from her.

[Dunhallym]

And I am telling you that I moved off Algebra after the Shaddowez wagon took off. I mentioned Shaddowez trajectory was shit because it was.

Emproof is town.

I am looking for algebra's partner, if he has one.

Empoof town - you're gonna have to give us more to go off of than that.

No, really, I don't. Scum must be in algebra/Dunn/Zito based on how this has played out. Therefore emproof is town.

What do you think of Tweety?

[Dunhallym]

Seems like I got nearly all my answers. I have a lot to say so I'll try to do it either today or tomorrow.

[Dunhallym]

Some more questions/comments I have:

@ Morning Tweet

I hear you but I disagree that the night kill makes no sense for an algebra team. It's always hard to guess correctly reasons for a NK. Now, self preservation is NAI but the total absence of scum hunting is AI.

@Titus

I think you are right but do you really think that one vote without some kind of case to back it is going to trigger much reactions?

@ Zito

In one of your posts from yesterday you spoke of mob analysis. We got 3 mobs that reached L-1 yesterday, not counting the lynch mob (Titus, nn30 and algebra), did you take a look at them ?

[Dunhallym]

Titus

I have more questions because I don’t really understand your thoughts process.
So your suspects are algebra, Zito and me.
I won’t come back on algebra, no point beating a dead horse.
You suspect me because of a comment arona made which suggests that he was starting to get suspicious of me. Are there other reasons?
Yesterday, arona suspected you and nn30 but he reverted on both. He also suspected algebra and Empoof, and while he changed his vote from Empoof he never said he had stopped suspecting him. Yet you say “Empoof is town”. I initially thought this was because of Empoof’s play, but from your later comments it looks like gameplay factors very little in your thought’s process. I can get why arona is an unlikely kill for an algebra/Empoof team. But if you consider the possibility that algebra is town, then why do you think Empoof is town?
About Zito: if I get it correctly, you suspect Zito because he is a likely algebra partner. Yet you say you don’t exclude a Dun/Zito team. So what are your reasons to suspect Zito? You removed Tweety and nn30 from algebra’s partner but why do you exclude them as possible partners to me or Zito?

[Dunhallym]

@Zito

Thanks.


I’ll try to give my thoughts on all players. I admit I have focused on Zito, Titus and Empoof and not given as much thoughts to nn30 and Tweety.
I said in an earlier post I thought there was at least 1 scum in {Empoof, Titus, Zito} no matter algebra’s alignment. Interestingly, both nn30 and Tweety have jumped on it, agreed and voted Empoof while Empoof has said that we should keep an eye on people that were sitting on algebra. Yet if you read it correctly, at least one on one mob means possibly one on the other. Actually, if algebra is town then it’s probably one on each. I admit I’ve not given much thought to the possibility of a Tweety/nn30 team as I highly doubt algebra is innocent and I’ve had a townread on Tweety for some time, but I guess it’s not entirely impossible.

Empoof

Yesterday I had a townlean on Empoof. I’ve reread him. There are some points I disagree with and some contradictions I found but all in all I stand by my initial read. In addition, unlike my initial impression that Empoof was algebra’s most likely partner, I now think it’s highly unlikely, based on two things. First is ecane’s vote in RVS which was on algebra. Second is Empoof’s entry in the game: his first post was FoS algebra. Then after reading the thread he completely reverted on this initial read and called algebra “stubborn town”. Not something I would expect from a partner.

Titus

Titus is giving me headaches. I don’t think she can be algebra’s partner because of algebra’s vote which put her at l-1 at the start of day 1. If any of you bothered to read algebra’s first posts in his first game, which I’ve talked about before, you would have seen that in that game algebra was entirely conscious that in a newb game putting someone at l-1 can be dangerous. So I don’t think he would have taken that risk with his partner, not to mention that it is what led to the highest suspicion on him.
So, at the start of the day, I was mostly suspicious of Titus if algebra is town. What bothered me most was that in spite of the tie between her suspicion of Shaddowez and algebra, she was the one who pushed people to move from algebra to Shaddowez, while I didn’t feel she tried half that hard to get algebra lynched.
Then there was nn30’s post which used what I had said to clear Titus and Zito for reasons I disagree with. That’s why I asked him to justify his assessment of Titus. Titus has done some scumhunting but I disagree that she has done “the most scumhunting in the game”, and apart from Shaddowez I didn’t feel she pushed that hard. Titus/nn30 as a possible scumteam works quite well IMO.
Then I had a complete 180° on Titus based on #502. Until I realized I had misinterpreted it some. I won’t give my initial interpretation until Titus answers because I don’t want risking to influence her answer. Now I’m on the fence about Titus. I really appreciate the fact she tried to push someone other than algebra, but as should be obvious from my previous post I don’t follow her reasoning.

Zito

There are a few things I dislike about Zito: mostly, Zito has been acting as if he was conftown, which is far from being the case to me. In addition, Empoof brought up some very valid points and I’ve reached the same conclusion he has. Zito avoided the algebra/nn30 talk for a great part of the day by focusing on Titus quasi exclusively. And at this point I think Zito is algebra’s most likely partner. I put in spoiler tags the summary I’ve made on it if you’re interested.

Spoiler: Zito/algebra

Apart from general advice to newbs or occasional answer to questions, all of zito’s posts up to #54 are interactions with Titus.
Accusations on algebra start to mount with Shaddowez’s initial vote in #50 and Titus’s vote in #59 but Zito’s only comment on the matter is in #62 : “algebra is the other SE slot”.
Then Zito reverts to the same as previous (i-e Titus + occasional advice/answer) until #135 .
Meanwhile the mob on algebra builds up with 2 additional votes in #126 and #133, when nn30 puts the L-1 vote and a new mob starts building on him. Zito still doesn’t comment on algebra.
In #182 , Zito gives his first opinion on a non-Titus player, i-e nn30 but doesn’t vote as he wants to hear more from absent players (voting would have put nn at l-1 at this point): also says he wants to make some isodives.. He is then absent (week-end) and finally gives his opinion on most players in #242. Here is the main thing arguing against Zito/algebra IMO, as Zito says he’s no longer interested in lynching nn30 while nn was the main counterwagon. However, looking at the context, I think nn’s mob was losing momentum while algebra’s was gaining (after arona switched vote in #231) and with 6 days left there was plenty of time to find another countermob. In addition, Zito’s comment on algebra is not really committing to anything. From there on Zito starts pushing Shaddowez. #279 gives more precise thoughts on algebra.

Nn30

I have a very hard time making my mind on nn30 and I admit I’ve not taken a look back at him. I’ve been mostly worried of a connection between Titus and him. I don’t think he can be algebra’s partner based on votes from yesterday.

Tweety

I had a townread on Tweety yesterdayI think it’s unlikely that Tweety is algebra’s partner but I’ve been going back and forth on that one. The main argument I have against this partnership comes from the moment when the mob moved onto Shaddowez. Then Tweety had the exact same thought I had that Shaddow’s push on Titus made no sense from scum perspective if algebra was not his partner. As to me it was the main argument to vote algebra over Shaddow, I don’t think algebra’s partner would bring it up. I have found myself agreeing a lot with Tweety except for her suspicions of Empoof.

Now, I’ve given the thoughts I wanted to give. I still think that VOTE: algebra is scum. That’s l-1.

[Dunhallym]

@algebra Scum or town, are you content with letting yourself go down without any resistance?

@Dunny If my night kill theory is true and algebra flips town, we gave scum a free mislynch by lynching shadow yesterday. Would my Empoof/Papa/Titus scumpile hold water then?

As you're clearing algebra based on the NK do you think the NK would benefit a scum team composed of two among Titus/Empoof/Zito and how?

@Dunn, Why are you whiteknighting algebra?

@Zito, why have you done no investigation but just tried mechanically to move the day along?

Well two reasons. 1)I belong to team math and 2) as you said yourself up until now my buddy Zito was doing the whiteknighting while I was doing the push. We talked about it in scum chat and decided to do the opposite for a while. Unfortunately I'm pretty bad with horses and miné looks like he wants to trample algebra.

[Dunhallym]

Do we really need to wait for the official Eod ? Algebra has been active elsewhere on the site and just doesn't care about this game anymore.

[Dunhallym]

Good game all. Tweet really fooled me too. I really thought it was nn/Titus. I am surprised that Empoof was lynched. I really town read him and my kill made little sense for him. That's why I really suspected Titus. She went to look for aronas suspicions but she never looked at my suspicions. I'll post more tomorrow.

[Dunhallym]

So I finally get to write a bit more.
It was a fun game and I enjoyed playing with all of you, except algebra who didn't really bother to play. I don't think I can play in the very near future as even with the long days it was difficult for me to find time for the game. It should hopefully be better in a few months when baby doesn't wake me up at nights anymore and I can stay up a bit later in the evenings.
I don't understand why you all were suspicious of Empoof who was my strongest town read. On day 3 especially, I feel that he did a great job scumhunting and trying to see every angle of the game. I also don't get why Titus was so convinced of nn's innocence. From my perspective as a dead player, that is without pressure (doesn't matter if I'm wrong) but also without doing any rereads, just following the game, I was convinced nn was scum. To me, Empoof and Papa both looked to be scumhunting and trying to evaluate things while both Titus and nn seemed to have preconceptions and didn't appear to really do much to solve the game. Tweet was floating around. So Empoof was my strongest townread, I became convinced of Papa's likely innocence. As for Tweety, what fooled me was the impression that she really had her own way of looking at things without ties to anyone. I don't know how to express it but great play on her part. Which left me with Titus/nn as the most likely scumteam. Strangely, the Titus/Empoof situation was what would have pushed me to vote nn over either as it was a strange move for scumTitus to lock herself in a "either me or Empoof" situation. I thought that it would only make sense if she felt her partner was in serious danger, and both Papa and Empoof had nn on their radar at the time. The other thing that convinced me of nn's guilt was his "you almost have me convinced post" which sounded really fake.
Anyway, my main regret is not pushing more for algebra's lynch on day 1. I meant to do it but the day ended before I had time to really do it. And my other regret is that I became so convinced of algebra's guilt on day 2 that I had a hard time considering options where he was innocent. I was seriously pissed off at him when he turned town.
But anyway, thanks all for playing and hoping we get to play together again in the future.