Newbie 1768: Party Mafia - Game over!

[Agent Sparkles]

Let's get this show on the road

[Agent Sparkles]

VOTE: VOTE: GuiltyLion

The name says it all, he's guilty and he's lion. Also keep an eye out for TriangleShark, because the triangle part implies he's working with the illuminati.

@kentofan @Bulbazoor

If I'm not mistaken, you'll be replaced if you don't confirm within the 72 hours.

[Agent Sparkles]

Didn't know that encompassing in VOTE: [./v] that would automatically add a VOTE: into it.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

That's better.

[Agent Sparkles]

I still got it wrong, RIP me

[Agent Sparkles]

@kentofan @Bulbazoor

If I'm not mistaken, you'll be replaced if you don't confirm within the 72 hours.

why are you acting like a moderator?

VOTE: Agent Sparkles

I'm guessing that question is just for RVS purposes, but if you actually want it answered, I'm just reminding the inactive players so that they don't get kicked from the game. And for obvious reasons, it's helpful to have as many active players as possible.

EccentricLemon seems pretty wishywashy to me. Switching votes for dubious reasons and suspicious of people called "Agent"? Clear scumtell. Serious.

Also, saying hello to people as first post? Obvious survival tactics.

I really hope you're messing with us.

Fixed quote tag

[Agent Sparkles]

Anyone want to tell me why I might think that?

Probably because of this:

Also DO NOT TELL ANYONE IN THIS THREAD YOUR ROLE, regardless of its towniness.

@nancy: Encompass your vote with VOTE: [./v] (ignore the dot) to make it bold.

And I guess because I pinged the inactive players to get them to do something. Am I right about those?

[Agent Sparkles]

@Sparkles have you played elsewhere?

I've played a few games with my IRL friends, but not the way that it's played on this forum. I did skim over a couple of threads in the Micro section to get a better idea of how things work, though.

Nancy, I still have a feeling that you're just trolling, but I hope you realize that your vote at the beginning was just as random as Ecentric's or anyone else's. It's not like they're meant to be taken seriousy yet anyway.

[Agent Sparkles]

I still stand by my vote since I have not received any new information about GuiltyLion and no other posts have convinced me about the scumminess of any other player.

Are you saying that GuiltyLion is the only scummy one, or that no one is scummy so far? It could be taken either way.

[Agent Sparkles]

Imagine this is your first game and you drew scum. Do you spam the thread like this, or do you carefully craft your first post while being shit scared of saying the wrong thing?

Also @newbies you can hit the preview button to see how your post would look in thread, which is sometimes useful.

Didn't mean for that to turn into spam, but yeah, I'd probably be hyper-cautious as scum. And I've already taken note of previewing.

Quick question, how do you unvote?

[Agent Sparkles]

Jae, I honestly can't work that out myself. Unless that's your way of stirring up conversation and starting the hunt, which I'm going to read you as Towny for.

This doesn't really resonate with me. Stirring up discussion alone is something that anyone can easily do, and in my opinion, not a very good basis for reads. JaeReed also earned some townie points with me for that post, but it's because of the way he purposely didn't explain himself and left it up to everyone else to think about, which seems like a genuine town strategy. I do think it's possible that you were thinking along these lines and just weren't as specific about it.

Your read only applies if everyone on mafia has the same personality or playstyle.

You could use this logic against countless types of legitimate reads. Just because not everyone has the same playstyle doesn't mean you should ignore the subtle differences in the styles of people's messages. People aren't computers; there's almost always some kind of sign that people are genuine or pretending.

@toejam I don't see that as a TR. Saying you've read him a Town for starting discussion seems to me like the start of buddying up, which I would read as scum

Maybe. I'm a bit hesitant to scumread him for that because of reasons I mentioned above.

I'll finish replying to messages after I eat dinner.

[Agent Sparkles]

Code: Select all

[unvote][/unvote] or [uv][/uv]

Will come out as:
UNVOTE:

Thanks.

I have no idea why I'm gutreading toejam as scum, but it came with his first two posts, #7 & #9.

This is scummier than anything toejam has said. If you seriously scumread someone, then there has to be a reason behind it, however small it might be. Why should your initial read have any credibility if you can't tell us why you have it?

Now I've realized there may be a terminology issue here. Are you using "dislike" as equivalent to "read as scum"?

Probably. That's the way most people seem to use it here.

I'm guessing that question is just for RVS purposes, but if you actually want it answered, I'm just reminding the inactive players so that they don't get kicked from the game. And for obvious reasons, it's helpful to have as many active players as possible.

But why do you think bulba/kento would need to see your post to remember that they have to confirm? If they're reading this thread, they would already know they need to confirm and participate, no?

I was hoping that this was like some other forums, where doing @player would alert them.

[Agent Sparkles]

There is one issue that I have to side with nancy on, and this is mostly directed at JaeReed and GuiltyLion.

There's nothing wrong with trying to break apart townreads, especially weak ones. If you stay quiet when people are gaining unnecessary trust, then what if one of them is mafia? You're just making it easier for them to stay hidden. Even if the people in question are town, what about the people townreading them? If you point out the flaws in their arguments, whether they're scumreading or townreading, you can force them to explain themselves and draw attention to possible fake reads.

I'm not saying that putting scumreads under scrutiny is less important, but it's a two-way road. I'm surprised that this is even a subject for debate.

Welcome, Titus.

[Agent Sparkles]

I haven't had much time to post today, I'll give an analysis in the morning.

[Agent Sparkles]

Sorry I was absent, I started to post yesterday and ran out of time.

In general, I don't like unexplained TRs Sparkles. Yet, there are players who do that. Naked reads can be playstyle, crumbs, confidence or any number of things. Pressing to understand is ok, but don't press to demolish.

I may have worded my argument poorly. Pressing to demolish is an exaggeration of what I was getting at, but the problems with people's reads should at least be called out, if not to put the person being townread in question, then at least the person doing the reading. Purposely trying to wreck people's townreads is extreme, but putting them to the test is necessary.

Jae, I honestly can't work that out myself. Unless that's your way of stirring up conversation and starting the hunt, which I'm going to read you as Towny for.

This doesn't really resonate with me. Stirring up discussion alone is something that anyone can easily do, and in my opinion, not a very good basis for reads. JaeReed also earned some townie points with me for that post, but it's because of the way he purposely didn't explain himself and left it up to everyone else to think about, which seems like a genuine town strategy. I do think it's possible that you were thinking along these lines and just weren't as specific about it.

Sure, when we get to day 3 and page 60, the fact that someone "stirred up discussion" on the second page shouldn't impact your read in a player. Page 2 though, absolutely it can, especially when all the reads are going to be so nebulous.

I'm curious why you decided to give tojam an out on his thinking. Why not instead simply ask "what were you thinking?" and evaluate the response?

I guess you're right about all of the reads being hazy early on. It just struck me as odd that he was willing to townread Jae that quickly on something so flimsy and generalized.

As for giving toejam an out on his reasoning, I still wanted him to explain it himself; I was just making it clear that I wasn't assuming things yet, since what I said could've been meaningless depending on what he really meant.

Most of the people in this game are newbies, and I think some of you are reading too far into everything. Then again, I tend to be the kind that likes to wait a while before making any decisions and am a newbie myself.

I don't think nancy is consciously attempting to prove her innocence and at this point, I lean toward the fact that she's just more outspoken and trying to incite conversation. Personally, I don't think what she's said is enough to incriminate her.
However, at this stage of the game, everyone is suspicious and outspoken people tend to draw more suspicion. Which is to say while I don't believe nancy is attempting to divert attention, I'm not completely certain of her innocence as well.

I voted for GuiltyLion hoping to receive some information from him or other players discussing him but I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a lot of debate going on about him. Also as soon as people started voting for him, he hasn't posted much. Which seems a little shifty to me, like he's lying low and letting it blow over. I mean, I don't know his personal life or playing style so I might be wrong.

The fact that Jae and AgentSparkles haven't voted against nancy and are trying to get information instead of straight up voting for her kind of tips me toward assuming they are probably town. However, Jae is a seasoned player and that makes me trust them less.

Again, this is only my speculation from what I've seen.

Are we not supposed to read far into everything, especially this early on? We have absolutely no solid evidence to go on, and there's no telling if we ever will.

Nancy does seem to care more about the town in general than her own survival, but I can't shake how she brought up a scum gutread on toejam (which there had been no previous mention of) and then couldn't explain why when she was asked. I haven't voted her yet because I'm waiting for the game to progress so that I can get a better grip on my reads before I start playing more aggressively. That being said, I'm going to UNVOTE: because there's really no point in having my vote parked on GuiltyLion anymore.

The argument about Guilty being quiet "once people started voting for him" doesn't really work, because Jae and I voted him almost instantly at the beginning. This would be more convincing if there was an example of him posting a lot when he wasn't being voted.

And here I was rearing up for a reply only to find that GuiltyLion essentially wrapped up everything I wanted to say about EccentricLemon in post 76. From my experience in in-person mafia, being accusatory, making mistakes, and seeing what unfolds amidst the successful or unsuccessful attempts at finding scum is the best way of winning for town in the long run.

This post is a bit fillery and I'm not crazy about how it piggybacks off of guilty instead of giving an original opinion. What about the rest of us? Do you have any other reads/opinions?

- GuiltyLion, I'd love to hear more thoughts about this game specifically other than "sparkles why are you acting like a mod?"

I have been mulling over whether I think Jae's 24 is sincere, as it's a bit of a curveball question to answer if you're scum. I know as scum I've bragged about my scumgame before (start here and read the subsequent discussion), because it projected a certain town-esque indignant attitude of "how dare I be [correctly] scumread, if I were scum you would think I was town", so the fact that they pointed out a shallow feature of their scumplay may indicate they're working with a town frame of mind. Regardless of their alignment in this particular game, it's probably a true self-assessment, so I'd keep it in mind later in the game (after a few game-Days) if you're town and you get the sense that they're faking emotions or forcing reads, and bring it up again.

Jae's reaction seemed towny enough to me. As scum, he would've been consciously pointing out the flaws in his own playstyle, which could be risky in the long run. Also, could you elaborate on what LAMIST is?

Jae, I honestly can't work that out myself. Unless that's your way of stirring up conversation and starting the hunt, which I'm going to read you as Towny for.

This doesn't really resonate with me.

Stirring up discussion alone is something that anyone can easily do, and in my opinion, not a very good basis for reads

. JaeReed also earned some townie points with me for that post, but it's because of the way he purposely didn't explain himself and left it up to everyone else to think about, which seems like a genuine town strategy. I do think it's possible that you were thinking along these lines and just weren't as specific about it.

Your read only applies if everyone on mafia has the same personality or playstyle.

You could use this logic against countless types of legitimate reads. Just because not everyone has the same playstyle doesn't mean you should ignore the subtle differences in the styles of people's messages. People aren't computers; there's almost always some kind of sign that people are genuine or pretending.

@toejam I don't see that as a TR. Saying you've read him a Town for starting discussion seems to me like the start of buddying up, which I would read as scum

Maybe. I'm a bit hesitant to scumread him for that because of reasons I mentioned above.

I'll finish replying to messages after I eat dinner.

Anyone can do it, but what reason does scum have to actually do it?

To look towny. To convince people to follow you. To make the game more interesting. The only problem is if they give themselves away early on.

[Agent Sparkles]

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and

might have even hurt me down the road

.

What do you mean by this? Why did you say it?

I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Why not be accusatory?

Well keeping my vote for GuiltyLion if I was trying not to be belligerent would have been a bad move because it would seem like I'm trying to throw him under the bus. Which is not what I'm going for. I'm not sure if I'm articulating what I'm trying to say correctly. I'll try to elaborate if my explanations don't make any sense.
We all know that at this point, everyone's basically out for themselves so there's no harm I think in pointing out that I did it in self-preservation.

I don't want to be accusatory because a mistake will likely make me seem scummier. If my aggressive actions get him hanged and he turns out to be town, people are going to come after me because I'm already suspicious. I mean, it seems like everything I say is making me more and more suspicious anyway.
Also I'm a newbie and I'm still learning how the game works and I don't want to try anything too (emphasis on the too) risky until I've had some experience. I'm seeing that posting what I said that early was a bad idea (?).

@GL, I've never been a fan of p.1, baseless gut, having opinions prior to the game is noobscummy to me.

I never said anything that would allude to me having opinions prior to the game. At least I don't believe so. Attack me all you want for that, but I think I made it pretty clear that all of my observations are pretty nebulous but have at least some sort of basis in what people have said.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I don't agree with JaeReed that townies shouldn't worry about how they look. The good of the town should be put first, but you can play for the team and still have a bit of caution with your posts. Taking risks is good, but you don't want the result of your boldness to be a mislynch on you.

That being said, it seems unnatural that even a careful townie would be this paranoid. Also, you claimed it would make you look bad if Guilty was lynched because of your actions, but why would you even need to worry about that? He wasn't going to be killed because of an RVS vote.

Also it feels super quiet. I know there's two weeks for each day but I wasn't expecting it to be this slow-paced.

Maybe you should try and instigate something then? There's plenty of material to go on. 9 for instance, where toejam seems to me to insinuate that town should be more inclined to out their roles than scum would - isn't it actually the opposite? Or the fact that Titus and Jae are apparently no voting. Or that AgentSparkles and EccentricLemon still have no avatars. Is that a blending tactic or are they just unable to find a satisfactory image for themselves? Or did they not see 19, and does that mean that they have been skimming - not a particularly townie thing to do? Does AgentSparkle's humorless response to my jokes mean that he didn't read it carefully? He displays a sense of humor in 10 and yet failed to detect it in my 21 and 22, does that further suggest that he skimmed? Maybe others can comment on whether or not the joke is obvious enough.

Off I go to read some theory about D1 RL.

This post is grasping at straws more than anything. But to address the things about me:

I still don't know what I want my avatar to be. There were two that I tried, but they were both way above the pixel limit. It would be pretty useless as a blending tactic, others would still remember the things I've said.
I said that I thought you were joking with your accusations, but I wanted to make sure. The problem with my sense of humor is that it goes over my head sometimes.

I think nancy is doing the same thing I am in trying to be cautious--it IS the first day--but still stirring up conversation. She hasn't changed her vote for a bit, so I take that she isn't actively accusing anyone but more passively pointing out things she finds suspicious.

And in the same post:

In all, someone did say that the more aggressive Town is, the more successful they're going to be (sorry, can't find it in the thread) and I think that's what she's going for.

You just contradicted yourself by saying that nancy is playing passively, and then saying that she's playing aggressively. Which one is it?

VOTE: EccentricLion

Gut

VOTE: EccentricLemon

My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

This isn't very consistent either. If you want to hide your reasons, why bother saying that it's out of gut?

I don't really care that Titus and Jar aren't voting yet - I care that Titus's posts have been crappier than Jae's, while Jae has a strangely knowledgeable tone (scummy) but is also the IC and is supposed to play the knowledgeable role. So I'm struggling to balance the IC aspect of Jae with my read on him.

I'd like to know why anyone having a "knowledgeable tone" is a problem in the first place. Does looking ignorant make people towny?

[Agent Sparkles]

I'm here, just haven't found the time to make a post. I'm gonna start rereading now

[Agent Sparkles]

Post coming soon

[Agent Sparkles]

Sorry for the delay, it's a combination of bad timing in joining this game and my own poor time management. Also, the game has gotten way longer and more convoluted since I went inactive, so making the same kind of meaningful posts on the fly is near impossible when I'm not caught up.

Anyway, here's the post you've all been expecting. I'm going to focus my scumreads or semi-scumreads for now.

Spoiler:

Eccentric is someone I would keep an eye on. I think we've already established that some of her posts could be newbie fumbles, but with the exception of nancy's 180 (and even that was playing both sides of the argument), most of the TR arguments for her (mainly to revan and jae) haven't done much to persuade that these posts are a sign that she's town. Though this is oversimplifying a bit, there seems to be an argument of "she's probably acting like paranoid scum because she's newbtown" when I've mostly been getting more general newbie vibes for the same reasons, and occasionally slightly scummy ones (like the sudden paranoia early on, and the fact that her vote is still on tojam even though no one has challenged his claim). This read is probably the weakest of the three, so I would keep her alive as a future lynch target.

Titus also makes me feel uneasy. Say what you want about not worrying about yourself as a townie, but when Titus is being suspected she seems to dismiss it altogether (most notably when Revan pushed on her). As a townie, you should at least want to address people's problems when they prompt you to, for the sake of helping the game move forward. Ignoring people altogether is detrimental to town and could be a way of avoiding the issue or an excuse to use the "town playstyle" argument. To a lesser degree, I also don't like how focused she's been on tunneling lemon since page 11, with how little her posts have given besides that.

And then Revan. His reasoning seems pretty shallow and at times irrational. Just like I questioned tojam because his first townread was based on "furthering discussion," Revan claims a similar read on me in 154. His case on Jae is very flawed, acting sure that Jae's comment on being scum in two "completed games" is them slipping, which is really a stretch. As a normal statement, what Jae said made perfect sense, but as a slip, it's a really obvious goof-up that even new players shoud notice before sending, much less an IC. Later, he accuses them of using basic, surface-level thinking, which is exactly what he'd been doing most of the time.

My vote will likely go to one of these three. I'll elaborate on my other current reads as well, but it's super late here, so I'll give you a list for now:

Tojam: Essentially ConfTown
JaeReed- Leaning Town
GuiltyLion- Nulltown
Bowdown- Possibly nulltown, will have to reread him a bit more
Nancy- Neutral

[Agent Sparkles]

Question: Do scum get to directly communicate with each other?

[Agent Sparkles]

Not sure how much I'll be available before the deadline, so I'm going to cast my vote after I give my reasons

[Agent Sparkles]

Spoiler: Quote wall

I'm back. First things first, I retract 376 and apologize for a crappy post. Cheap way to "out" oneself as town. It's relevant however that my scumread of Lemon and especially of Lemon/Jae depended partially on certain private communications having taken place (e.g., 168). Titus is right about pregame coaching.

On Revan: this personality type has a tendency to seem scummy even when they aren't (kind of similar to how EL's personality has a tendency to seem townie when they aren't). I'm not going to join this wagon today.

On D1 lynch: I should play to win the game. It isn't at all clear how to interpret this, however. Do I lynch who I think is scummiest or who I think will give us the best chance of catching scum down the track? Lynching Lemon would certainly free up headspace to look elsewhere, and she doesn't post or scumhunt much - only 2 more posts than mod - so if she flips Town it isn't as though we'd be losing a great deal. I'm kind of disinclined to lynch her though, because she's been giving off at least

some

towntells recently, and there are better options immediately available: GuiltyLion and Titus.

I'm just going to bank on either GL or Titus being scum. And not both. GL has contributed pretty much nothing all day, but I'm also pretty unimpressed by how little Titus came up with after the naked vote on EL, so either makes sense to me.

Which results in a lynching priority for me of: GL, Titus, EL, Agent Sparkles, bowdown, revan

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Feel free to try to convince me to hammer or not hammer Lemon, but I'd prefer GL/Titus.

I don't like the sudden shift here. Your last read on guilty was nulltown, wasn't it? Now you change that to scum because of low contribution when in fact he's contributed a fair amount to the discussion. If that's really what you care most about at this point, then me or Titus would be a more realistic priority.

What's your opinion on Revan? You voted him earlier, which suggests you scumread him.

Oh I miscounted, I thought EL was at L-1.

Revan and Titus have already expressed willingness to lynch GL. Tojam also appears willing, though he has stated that he prefers EL. This puts L-1 on GL within easy reach. I don't think his claim is particularly relevant at this point. If he's the real jailer (1/7) then we're fucked, but otherwise it's irrelevant. If he's mafia, he'll almost certainly claim jailer to try to and bait a cc. I doubt the real jailer would out at this point, preferring to just hammer or wait for someone else to hammer if they're already on the wagon. He could also claim vanilla, but this is unlikely because it doesn't do anything for his chances of survival and doesn't stand to give his partner anything to work with. In other words, real jailer shouldn't out/cc D1, so a jailer claim should be ignored. No matter who we lynch we're running a 1/7 chance of being wrong and lynching the real jailer. I like those odds.

There's only a 50/50 chance that there's even a jailer in the game, but yeah, they shouldn't out today.

Revan, your recent posts have only made me more suspicious of you. This progression on Lemon is terrible:

I think EL is too townread to be lynched today.

Jae is the right lynch.

VOTE: EL

I don't want EL in LYLO anyway

It is a self save, though.

@bowdown I was townreading EL on page 2. Why do you believe that that read is still current? It looks like you're stretching now.

I only have a slight TR on EL, so I don't mind.

I was voting my scumread. You're really grasping for straws here.

I believe EL will flip 60% green 40% red.

I scumread both of you.

Let me get this straight. In a span of 4 pages, you (in order) say EL is too town to be lynched, vote EL and say you don't want her in LYLO, claim it was a self-save, say that you were townreading her on page 2 and not necessarily anymore (pretty sure the 2 was a typo, but regardless it was only 2 pages and 3 of your posts ago), claim that you do in fact townread her (although slightly), backtrack and say you voted her because you scumread her, and then say that she's 60% town and 40% scum. In the process, you push Lemon to L-1 and later claim that there's plenty of time to lynch Guilty. You're being really incoherent.

And about this:

If I was town/scum reading Titus I would have no reason to do a reaction test.

I'll lynch GL if none of you will lynch Jae.

There was a reason I asked about scum communication. Since you and Titus were my top scumreads, I considered a hypothetical scenario were you were partners and your strategy of attacking Titus for a reaction and later unvoting was your way of bussing for credit without actually lynching her. This would've been undermined if scum could talk during the day, since you could've informed her of what you were trying to do and she probably would've been more cooperative. Alone, it's not a very strong case to make against you, but combined with the above quote wall and everything else you've said and done, it's hard to see you as town.

VOTE: Revan

[Agent Sparkles]

Revan is at L-1 again

[Agent Sparkles]

Lol, it flew right over my head that nancy's jailkeeper comment might be a slip. I still think Revan needs to go at some point. Nancy, hat do you mean by "it just makes sense" that he's town?

Also, calling JaeReed conftown based on twilight posting is stretching it.

[Agent Sparkles]

*what

[Agent Sparkles]

Lemon, it's not just about being new to the game. Most of us have minimal or no experience, but you're giving off different tells. Do you get why some people find your word choice scummy?

The townbloc I have right now is {Myself, Bowdown, Tojam}. If we carry this into LYLO we win.

I don't know if I feel good enough about you for this - but I don't want you dead today. Us arguing about your lemon vote made me feel decently good on you.

Sparkles, your last big post basically said the same stuff on Revan that he and I argued back and forth on. I don't feel like you even kept up with the discussion - just read Revan in ISO.

Nancy had just moved from Revan to GL. Sparkles comes in and votes Revan and tries to get Nancy to go there. Sparkles is ignoring what's actually happening in the thread and Revan's explanations. Could be an attempt at a lemon save if sparkles/lemon scumteam (which I think is one of the more likely pairings).

1) I'm aware that she'd moved to GL, and that's why I asked the question. Her post about Revan's personality type clearly said she wasn't going to vote him that day, but was still vague what her current read on him was like. Not enough to make a sudden flashwagon convincing, at least with her reasoning for it.

2) You're wrong in assuming I only read his ISO. Even if you take away the first two quotes (which I misinterpreted and was corrected on), his last five have clear inconsistencies in them whether they're in the context of the argument or not. In 407, you attack him for voting up his supposed townread (clearly referring to the Lemon vote, not the earlier JaeReed one) and he responds saying that he was voting for his scumread. This is where your read on him visibly starts cracking, even though he just did one of two things:
a) Directly contradicted himself about Lemon
b) Changed the subject his previous vote, after you'd already gone back and forth enough times to make it clear what you're arguing about.
Even if we assume that b is true and it was a genuine mistake, in 394 he heavily implies that EL is no longer his townread, then debunks that in 403 and 413 with no apparent reason to change his stance.

[Agent Sparkles]

*still vague about what
*the subject to his previous vote

[Agent Sparkles]

Tojam, the technically correct answer is that I wouldn't vote early based on pressure. But hypothetically I would go for Titus or Revan. Lemon could flip either way in my mind. I'm against lynching bowdown or GL today, especially after going over their ISOs.

I'd rather not see this thread die without jae and nancy, so if anyone wants to discuss mafia in real time, I'll be online again in 4-4.5 hours.

[Agent Sparkles]

Tojam, the technically correct answer is that I wouldn't vote early based on pressure.

what does this mean?

when you don't vote you are hiding information from us

1) I said I wouldn't decide to do it based on outside pressure. I'll vote when I think it's the right time to vote, not when the BP is asking me to.

2) A bolded VOTE: Player gives you no information. I've made it clear who I suspect of being scum.

@EL: A little over-defensive but I'll consider it newbiness for now.

@AS: 2 weeks should be long enough to decide on a vote.

VOTE: Titus

Titus is at L-1, lolhammers are a scumclaim if she flips town.

I am just beyond annoyed with you. 661 now this.

Stop saving scum and murdering town.

Did you not read his next post? Even if he hadn't switched off of you, this attitude of "I am town and lemon is scum, how dare you think otherwise" is awful.

[Agent Sparkles]

Welcome, Sobolev Space.

Revan, I really would like an explanation for your vote on Titus and then your quick changing of your vote. Or at least some explanation as to what exactly was going through your mind there. It looks more like a desperate "oh crap, that's my partner and I don't actually want them dead" to me more than anything. You don't seem to be making a lot of your own decisions, as you did something very similar yesterday.

Sorry, I meant tojam. I'm multitasking right now.

Why are you still pointing fingers at tojam? He claimed 1-shot bulletproof. Anyone with a BP role or something incompatible with it had every opportunity to call him out as a liar, and no one has done so. And it's clear that you aren't either, otherwise you wouldn't be pushing Titus over him.

Jeez, I didn't realise I could inadvertently create so much content by fking up my vote.

What do you think of what's happened since then?

1) I said I wouldn't decide to do it based on outside pressure. I'll vote when I think it's the right time to vote, not when the BP is asking me to.

2) A bolded VOTE: Player gives you no information. I've made it clear who I suspect of being scum.

1) When is the right time to vote, and why isn't it now?

2) is actually completely incorrect. Not only does your vote create direct and immediate pressure (because the person is one vote closer to being lynched), it also creates indirect pressure on all other players to respond to it. If someone is at L-1, everyone in the game better be weighing in on the lynch one way or the other, because a hammer could happen soon. Townies want to see their scumreads lynched and their townreads

not

lynched, so wagoning various players gives townies more opportunities to towntell and pushes scum into more opportunities to give themselves away.

when you have a bunch of people not voting and a few half-assed wagons, the game stagnates. You need to vote, and it's unclear to me why you're refusing to do so.

I've tried to give Revan time to respond to my case against him before voting, but it clearly isn't working, so I guess there's no reason to keep withholding it.

VOTE: Revan until I'm convinced otherwise.

[Agent Sparkles]

Titus, most of your posts don't have any meaning behind them, just repeatedly insisting that Lemon and GL are scum. The few real arguments you've made aren't especially persuasive.

[Agent Sparkles]

Agent Sparkles what is your case?

Everything I pointed out in these posts:

And then Revan. His reasoning seems pretty shallow and at times irrational. Just like I questioned tojam because his first townread was based on "furthering discussion," Revan claims a similar read on me in 154. His case on Jae is very flawed, acting sure that Jae's comment on being scum in two "completed games" is them slipping, which is really a stretch. As a normal statement, what Jae said made perfect sense, but as a slip, it's a really obvious goof-up that even new players should notice before sending, much less an IC. Later, he accuses them of using basic, surface-level thinking, which is exactly what he'd been doing most of the time.

Revan, your recent posts have only made me more suspicious of you. This progression on Lemon is terrible:

I think EL is too townread to be lynched today.



Jae is the right lynch.

VOTE: EL

I don't want EL in LYLO anyway

It is a self save, though.

@bowdown I was townreading EL on page 2. Why do you believe that that read is still current? It looks like you're stretching now.

I only have a slight TR on EL, so I don't mind.

I was voting my scumread. You're really grasping for straws here.

I believe EL will flip 60% green 40% red.

I scumread both of you.

Let me get this straight.

In a span of 4 pages, you (in order) say EL is too town to be lynched, vote EL and say you don't want her in LYLO, (<--- these first two were misinterpretations)

claim it was a self-save, say that you were townreading her on page 2 and not necessarily anymore (pretty sure the 2 was a typo, but regardless it was only 2 pages and 3 of your posts ago), claim that you do in fact townread her (although slightly), backtrack and say you voted her because you scumread her, and then say that she's 60% town and 40% scum. In the process, you push Lemon to L-1 and later claim that there's plenty of time to lynch Guilty. You're being really incoherent.

And about this:

If I was town/scum reading Titus I would have no reason to do a reaction test.

I'll lynch GL if none of you will lynch Jae.

There was a reason I asked about scum communication. Since you and Titus were my top scumreads, I considered a hypothetical scenario were you were partners and your strategy of attacking Titus for a reaction and later unvoting was your way of bussing for credit without actually lynching her. This would've been undermined if scum could talk during the day, since you could've informed her of what you were trying to do and she probably would've been more cooperative. Alone, it's not a very strong case to make against you, but combined with the above quote wall and everything else you've said and done, it's hard to see you as town.[/spoiler]

VOTE: Revan

2) You're wrong in assuming I only read his ISO. Even if you take away the first two quotes (which I misinterpreted and was corrected on), his last five have clear inconsistencies in them whether they're in the context of the argument or not. In 407, you attack him for voting up his supposed townread (clearly referring to the Lemon vote, not the earlier JaeReed one) and he responds saying that he was voting for his scumread. This is where your read on him visibly starts cracking, even though he just did one of two things:
a) Directly contradicted himself about Lemon
b) Changed the subject his previous vote, after you'd already gone back and forth enough times to make it clear what you're arguing about.
Even if we assume that b is true and it was a genuine mistake, in 394 he heavily implies that EL is no longer his townread, then debunks that in 403 and 413 with no apparent reason to change his stance.

[Agent Sparkles]

I'm guessing that question is just for RVS purposes, but if you actually want it answered, I'm just reminding the inactive players so that they don't get kicked from the game. And for obvious reasons, it's helpful to have as many active players as possible.

But why do you think bulba/kento would need to see your post to remember that they have to confirm? If they're reading this thread, they would already know they need to confirm and participate, no?

I'm operating under the assumption that we should try to break down any read, whether town, scum, or null, and that if a read is good it'll stand up to scrutiny by others.

I want to talk about this. What do you mean by "good" read - a read that is accurate or a read that is justified? In my experience, scum like to make everyone's reads about logic and evidence, because those things are easier to twist or poke holes at. If a player happens to accurately (but perhaps illogically) townread a townie, there isn't a pro-town benefit to breaking down that read unless it is actively helping sort the player who gave the townread. Whereas it helps scum to jump in and weaken townreads, as it keeps the lynchpool wider.

Also, because scum already know who is town, when asked about their fake townreads they can usually explain them convincingly. Scumreads are harder to fake.

IMO the most effective townplay is scrutinizing and justifying scumreads, not townreads

- GuiltyLion, I'd love to hear more thoughts about this game specifically other than "sparkles why are you acting like a mod?"

I have been mulling over whether I think Jae's 24 is sincere, as it's a bit of a curveball question to answer if you're scum. I know as scum I've bragged about my scumgame before (start here and read the subsequent discussion), because it projected a certain town-esque indignant attitude of "how dare I be [correctly] scumread, if I were scum you would think I was town", so the fact that they pointed out a shallow feature of their scumplay may indicate they're working with a town frame of mind. Regardless of their alignment in this particular game, it's probably a true self-assessment, so I'd keep it in mind later in the game (after a few game-Days) if you're town and you get the sense that they're faking emotions or forcing reads, and bring it up again.

I asked nancy that question about reads because I wanted to dig into why she was pressing Jae on his townreads, but felt a little rebuffed by 53 However, I do think her 'gut scumread' on toejam looks genuine, I don't think newbie scum would have the bravado to post something like 67 and refuse to try to explain the read. Light townlean there.

everyone else still pretty null. I like to let some conversations between other players breathe a bit because I find I generally make better reads from observing interactions rather than driving them. Whenever I replace into games, my reads are usually better than games where I'm posting from the getgo, and outside of RtR I have a bad habit of tunneling on town in D1. Newbie games I like to slow down and pace myself a bit more, partially because the games tend to get more involved in the "theory of mafia" anyway.

What do you mean by "for show"? I was on Lemon because that was my first decent-sized ping. I moved off Lemon to see what she was like without feeling like she has to be on the defensive. I'm unsure how I feel about lemon right now - I want to do some more in-depth reading of her latest post and I think there's some credence to nancy's idea that Lemon's just not putting out goodtown tells.

"for show" = without a real scumread or desire to lynch.

Have you done the in-depth reading? What do you currently think of Lemon?

Triangle vote was absolutely legit, but I moved off it for three reasons:

1. Two days have gone since Triangle even posted, so the pressure there is wasted
2. It didn't generate much discussion or content, which IMO is the most important thing we can get out of D1
3. Most importantly, tojam put out some seriously scummy posts and I have a decently strong scumread there - much stronger than either of the initial Lemon/Triangle reads.

I guess my problem with 1 is why was pressure on Triangle better than pressure on Lemon at the point in the game at which you unvoted?

on 3, I'm not sold on tojam's posts being "seriously scummy", my thought on your case below

What do you think of the questions Jae has asked so far (e.g. 88, 102)? Do you feel like they're from a protown perspective?

oops I forgot to respond to 88 actually.

response to 88: wasn't bothered by it
thoughts on 88: I could see it either way, if town!Jae is scumreading nancy then it makes sense to poke at me about it like that, but if scum!Jae were fishing for mislynch votes then it could serve that purpose as well. It's something to revisit on a nancy flip, and also slightly more informative now that Jae also has nancy as their top townread.

so

@Jae

- at what point did you decide nancy was a top townread?

as for 102, I've asked questions like that before when I thought newbies were scumreading people for bad reasons and I wanted to get a better grip on their reasoning. I'd say it's a pro-town question.

and I have some thoughts on his tojam case but I would like to let tojam respond to it first before jumping in

Would love to hear them now that tojam has responded.

so the thing is your entire case is built off of tojam being hypocritical in scumreading nancy for vote parking on a null, while doing the same thing himself.
Why do you think hypocrisy is indicative of scum alignment, especially in this particular case? Your 124 reads to me like "here are facts about things that happened, so tojam is a good vote", but I feel I'm missing the causality reasoning as to why voting nancy for doing something that he is guilty of himself makes tojam scum.

okay, so I went through and reread and I don't want to lynch {tojam, nancy, Lemon, Jae} today.

I most want to do this
VOTE: Revan

reasons forthcoming

But we do need to decide on a lynch in the next 48 hours before we rush a mislynch.

this is hard to do without Agent Sparkles voting and with a number of legacy/vanity solo votes (EL on tojam, tojam on nancy). At this point in time I think the onus is on you three to make consolidation happen. Normally I'd include Jae in this group too but I trust them to start voting/pushing a lynch before we get too close to deadline. At the very least you can talk about players you're not willing to lynch.

If you need any convincing, just look at GL's vote on me.

Terrible logic.

Titus how does this read like a town post to you?

GL has contributed pretty much nothing all day,

I think you need to reread my ISO. Just because I don't post as much does not mean there is no substance to my posts.

I'm literally scumhunting in the two posts above yours

You can eat rope if you're going to post one line misreps

yeah, given that nancy is not the jailkeeper, I think that's a slip

intent to hammer nancy

I'm not sure how much time we really need left for today but I'll do it in either 2-3 hours before I go to bed or ~10ish or so hours when I wake up. So everyone get your last words in now if you got em

You spent the whole game shading nancy but keeping her in the don't lynch pool. Then, you opportunistically hammerred.

The only one of these that can even be considered shading is 456, and 528 has already been explained. The rest are either townreads on nancy, show little to no read implications on her, or have nothing to do with her whatsoever.

You're just getting scummier by the minute, and your ad hominem attacks on tojam don't help.

Finished my read through.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Lynch GL, Titus, Revan in any order -> Town win

GGs everyone. Looking forward to playing with you all in future games.

Reasons for suspecting those three?

Sparkles how is my analysis shallow?

Your accusation of Jae slipping seemed more like scum taking an opportunity than a town interpretation. His post about being scum in "completed games" was speaking from an objective point of view. Making as painfully obvious a mistake as "whoops, I didn't say I wasn't scum in

this

game" isn't realistic for someone with as much experience as Jae. You didn't even seem to consider this, and instead jumped to the conclusion that he scumslipped. To a lesser extent, I thought that your TR comment on me "furthering discussion" seemed forced for the same reason that I thought tojam's case on Jae was early on:

Jae, I honestly can't work that out myself. Unless that's your way of stirring up conversation and starting the hunt, which I'm going to read you as Towny for.

This doesn't really resonate with me. Stirring up discussion alone is something that anyone can easily do, and in my opinion, not a very good basis for reads. JaeReed also earned some townie points with me for that post, but it's because of the way he purposely didn't explain himself and left it up to everyone else to think about, which seems like a genuine town strategy. I do think it's possible that you were thinking along these lines and just weren't as specific about it.

[Agent Sparkles]

Jae's slip wasn't even my case on them. Try again.

VOTE: JaeReed

Let me explain.

In their 143, they claim that they asked their questions in 87 and 88 to scumhunt. However, they don't follow up. I feel as though if they were trying to scumhunt, they would share with the town what they garnered from those responses. This leads me to believe that they're scum just going through the motions, and not genuinely trying to solve the game.

I'm also convinced that their 24 is a slip.

1) It contributed to your case, and it's scummy either way.
2) You're just dodging me at this point. How do you explain the other points I mentioned?

@tojam, Sparkles - what were your reasons for not voting Nancy during the flashlynch yesterday?

Wasn't online when it happened.

[Agent Sparkles]

What other points? All I see is weak analysis.

Clearly trying to get a real response out of you is a lost cause, so I'm keeping my vote where it is.

[Agent Sparkles]

If you seriously don't think I've presented a case, you're in denial or you aren't reading the thread. I've gone into detail highlighting your flimsy reads and your wildly incoherent responses, and now you're repeatedly brushing me off and avoiding my arguments. I'd bet on you being scum with Lemon or Titus.

[Agent Sparkles]

Sobolev, I'm in favor of lynching Titus today, but I'm not going to vote her while she's at L-1.

As for GL's heated reactions, I would consider that a scumtell in most circumstances, but it's understandable for someone who's being accused of things he never said or did, especially now that Titus is just continuing to throw out baseless arguments.

[Agent Sparkles]

Avoiding replacement until I can make a real post (didn't realize it was this long already)

[Agent Sparkles]

Hey, I'm going to highlight the obvious here and move back to EL in case it's EL/SS.

SS has said lynch GL/Titus/Revan in any order, yet doesn't provide content on me and is attempting to divert attention. It looks like SS wants it both ways. I suspected Titus too but she was town, so let's follow her reads. Flip GL. Town loses.

VOTE: EL

1) This is only a plausible theory if you're town, which I really doubt at this point.
2) Assuming that I'm wrong: If Sobolev wanted to blindly follow a dead townie's reads and lynch GL, why did she move GL to a townread after nancy called GL out as definite scum? And what happened to this?

I am not voting anyone but those two. Period.

Tojam, what about the ones that Titus has been giving? Are her "shading nancy" and "you tricked them" comments less scummy?

[Agent Sparkles]

Sobolev comes crashing in claiming that he's solved the game, and no one bats an eye?

This is unacceptable.

Please, Sobolev, enlighten us. I would love to know how you came to these conclusions, so maybe I will reach your level of play some day.

I'm pretty much caught up, this game is pretty dead. I will make a reads list this weekend.

Did you just ignore the 10 posts between this and her first one?

[Agent Sparkles]

Revan and Lemon are worth looking into, but I think Titus is the most likely mafia at this point. It makes zero sense for an SE to go spouting some of the stuff that she has and then get frustrated at people for not believeing her. I just can't imagine any scenario where the way she's playing would be sensible town play. Also, she never responded to GL's request to highlight where he tricked the others.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

Titus and Lemon are both at L-1

[Agent Sparkles]

Revan is likely her partner if she's scum. If not, I could see Revan/EL, or to a lesser extent EL/GL. EL is the consistent one between those two, but also isn't as scummy as Revan.

[Agent Sparkles]

@Sparkles - what do you think about Revan/GL?

I feel like they may have been soft bussing each other all game without committing. That was part of the reason I switched my vote to Revan last page. Wanted to see if I could get EL/GL to switch over as well.

Do I think they've been soft bussing each other? Revan, no, GL, maybe. GL started out with some commitment and later didn't say much about Revan while he was at war with Titus. But Revan spent a good portion of day 1 repeatedly insisting that we should lynch GL, and I think his vote would've flipped very quickly if more people had followed his advice. If there's any scumread he's been noncommittal on, it's me.

So a GL/Revan partnership seems unlikely to me. Revan could have taken the easy way out by following the Lemon wagon or continuing to push on Jae, but he flipped to a scum!GL opinion at what seemed like an odd and inconvenient time to bus.

Revan, some context would be helpful.

[Agent Sparkles]

I think it's better if we lynch today. No-lynching will just get tojam killed and we'll lose a town opinion. After how we went around in circles yesterday, I doubt an extra day would make us much more likely to hit scum.

[Agent Sparkles]

I don't think it's an EL-Revan team because of how Revan and EL voted eachother late in D1, ensuring that they were two of the most likely lynch candidates. That's far more likely to be 1S and 1T rather than both on Scum.

Don't forget that EL and Revan were already in the firing line when they voted each other. Also, Revan's vote on Lemon was too half-assed to be a real bus, because he claimed he was self-saving on to a townlean while actively pressuring people to flip over to you or Jae. Then he eagerly flashwagoned on to nancy once Jae revealed their case.

[Agent Sparkles]

Sobolev, why is your vote parked on me if GL and Revan are your top scumreads?

[Agent Sparkles]

^ More accurately, top candidates for a scumteam. Either way.

[Agent Sparkles]

My analysis can be simple because a lot of the people in this game are easy to read, except Titus and GuiltyLion.

This post was why I thought scum!Revan's partner would be either Titus or GL. Still think that's likely. Post 866 could easily be a bus.

Sparkles, why aren't you voting? Who would you like to see lynched today?

Revan is the scummiest one still alive, but I don't want the scumteam quicklynching him in MYLO in case I'm wrong about him.

[Agent Sparkles]

@EL - why no content today? I understand you said that stuff has come up that will make it harder to post, but if you can't contribute at least once every two days you should probably replace out.[/quote]

If Revan flips red today who do you think his partner is?

I'm still leaning toward EL/Revan because they're at the bottom of my reads list and no one is really jumping out as a partner for him.

One thing from yesterday that I forgot to address:

No, her other posts are irrelevant. Why do you ask?

They're absolutely relevant. The posts in between show that she has clear evidence to back up her reads, and that she's still actively scumhunting and her reads are evolving despite an overconfident entry. It's not any worse than your day 3 post claiming that scum is in me/EL/GL.

[Agent Sparkles]

Ignore the first paragraph, I quoted the wrong post at first and then didn't preview before I sent

[Agent Sparkles]

Lemon, what do you think of my 727?

[Agent Sparkles]

AS how are her posts relevant to my claim? You're spewing incoherent shit right now.

Look at your post attacking her entrance:

Sobolev comes crashing in claiming that he's solved the game, and no one bats an eye?

This is unacceptable.

Please, Sobolev, enlighten us. I would love to know how you came to these conclusions, so maybe I will reach your level of play some day.

I'm pretty much caught up, this game is pretty dead. I will make a reads list this weekend.

The bolded part is the most important. She had already been engaging in discussion about why her scumreads were her scumreads, and here you're asking for an explanation as if you just skipped over it. Even your first two lines are attacking her early posts in a way that suggests you didn't even try to digest her cases, just focused on a single post and ran with it.

[Agent Sparkles]

And you're really the last person that should be accusing people based on incoherence, Revan. You still haven't given any sort of defense for your inconsistencies regarding Lemon on day 1, besides dismissing them as "not alignment indicative" after multiple dodges.

@bowdown I was townreading EL on page 2. Why do you believe that that read is still current? It looks like you're stretching now.

I only have a slight TR on EL, so I don't mind.

I was voting my scumread. You're really grasping for straws here.

I believe EL will flip 60% green 40% red.

I scumread both of you.

How are self-contradictions like this not alignment indicative?

[Agent Sparkles]

I didn't attack her entrance? What are you talking about? I just wanted her to explain her reads.

Attacking may be too strong of a word, but as Lemon stated, there was definitely a confrontational element in your post.

@Revan - why the town read on me?

When did he say he townread you?

[Agent Sparkles]

Spoiler: Tojam

tojam seems to be pushing me because I pushed him when he was "conftown". First off, he wasn't confirmed, just highly likely. I don't think it's wrong to have doubts about your claim. I've outlined why in these posts:

Same thing with tojam:

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.

Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2

I follow up on this in #170.

Let me explain what I didn't like about tojam's claim. He claimed one-shot town without much provocation. If he isn't scum, now scum knows to avoid him because he won't die the first time they attack him. Plus, now they have more clues about what other townies are in the game. It doesn't make sense to reveal this early in the game, much less give the scum that much information, which is why I didn't think it was genuine.
Now that I think about it, no one else has been trying to run him up, which makes me think no one else is the one shot town, so I'll unvote for now.

But I'd still like to point out that according to Cakez' matrix, there isn't necessarily a bulletproof town in the game at all.

UNVOTE: tojam2

I admit you're more or less conftown now, but I'd also like to bring up the tangentially related point that the scum conveniently decided to attack tojam, who they had to have known was one shot town. Scum knows I was the most suspicious of tojam, so I'm making the assumption that they are hoping you all lynch me so that they can get away with a 2-1 win. Personally, I think this was a mistake on their part because it gives another day for town to regroup.
I mean, there's also the chance that both scum are complete noobs and just don't know what they're doing. I find this unlikely, however, because of how quickly they killed the JK.
This is just speculation, of course, but I'm finding a difficult time finding a justification for scum not

I also have a general question: does scum HAVE to kill at night? Can they choose not to?

I don't think there's a big problem with you doubting his claim initially. The part that pings me (and I think tojam too) is how you only seemed to be focused on why he was scummy even despite him being "highly likely" town. Even on day 2 when weeks had passed since his claim, you expressed a major scumread on him. It seemed more like a forced attempt to continue a read than anything.

[Agent Sparkles]

@Sparkles - could you get on board with a GL lynch today?

I'm concerned with everyone's willingness to lynch Revan. Bussing doesn't make sense with tojam stuck on EL since you can't lynch with just 3 votes.

That's a decent point, I'll have to think about this. Although if I switched to anyone, it would probably be Lemon, considering you and GL are in my townpool along with tojam.

I'm concerned with everyone's willingness to lynch Revan.

I don't actually see any willingness to lynch Revan from you at all

@GL - the reason my vote is on you now is because I don't want to put Revan to 2 votes, I would still vastly prefer lynching him today.

like this really isn't consistent with a townie frame of mind. If I'm partners with Revan and my vote is already on him then a quickhammer at L-2 is flatly impossible

if you really thought Revan was the correct lynch you wouldn't be worried about a quickhammer

Strongly disagree with these. She's been pretty consistent ever since Titus flipped town about wanting Revan hung the most. And at this stage of the game, anyone who puts their scumread in quickhammer range without being 100% sure of their guilt is either reckless or scum.

[Agent Sparkles]

Looking back on it, Sobolev, all living non-clears had already expressed a scumread on Revan prior to d3. Considering he's done practically nothing to change people's minds, I don't think it's impossible that his partner is continuing to tunnel him for the sake of consistency. Especially when optimistic scenario for Revan at this point is probably a 3v3 vote with Lemon.

[Agent Sparkles]

Sobolev is either town or partnered with Revan. If she was partnered with GL or EL, it would make zero sense for her to suggest a flip away from Revan when she did, since it would basically be throwing away an easy win. Also, 849 and 901 could be attempts at a save.

[Agent Sparkles]

Words are not actions - my point is that Sobolev says she wants a Revan lynch, but has voted elsewhere multiple times now and openly advocated for lynching me instead.

I considered this, hence the change in attitude from 914 to916, although most of her votes were described as pursuing lesser priorities while not wanting to put Revan at L-2 yet and still wanting him gone today. The cycle of faltering/uncertainty on him was enough to make me think a partnership was possible, but not enough for me to think your 905 was justified.

Isn't this MYLO? Doesn't lynching me lose the game?

It is MYLO, but waiting until tomorrow won't increase our odds, since tojam is a dead man walking and we know he isn't a viable lynch target for today.


I think tojam's early vote was a mistake, but the fact that there hasn't been a quickhammer yet makes me more inclined to think that at least one of Revan/GL is scum. Which is all good for today, but it further complicates the matter of deciding on a partner if and after he flips red.

[Agent Sparkles]

Forgot to respond to this part:

And I don't understand your last sentence - short of a night action result, how can you ever be 100% sure of someone's guilt?

You can't, which is why it's reckless. And if I thought your "you should be voting your scumreads by now"' argument had any merit, the lynch would already be in SS and EL's hands.

[Agent Sparkles]

rip this game

[Agent Sparkles]

@Revan

Spoiler: Still waiting on responses

And you're really the last person that should be accusing people based on incoherence, Revan. You still haven't given any sort of defense for your inconsistencies regarding Lemon on day 1, besides dismissing them as "not alignment indicative" after multiple dodges.

@bowdown I was townreading EL on page 2. Why do you believe that that read is still current? It looks like you're stretching now.

I only have a slight TR on EL, so I don't mind.

I was voting my scumread. You're really grasping for straws here.

I believe EL will flip 60% green 40% red.

I scumread both of you.

How are self-contradictions like this not alignment indicative?

I've touched on what AgentSparkles said in #370#387. I definitely do agree that Revan seems lost and falling short in his attempts to seem town. I don't see his scumhunts as genuine. He jumped on the bandwagon AGAIN after it was made pretty clear that last time he did that, he was labeled as suspicious. Not to mention this exchange:

VOTE: EL

I think this has a higher chance of being scum than Titus

You've made one post about EL's phrasing. I don't think you realize the reason you can't convince people to join you on EL is because you're not making a case.

What's changed between now and then?

I agreed with Titus's case.

???????? This is just a blatant contradiction. Between ~679 and when he votes me, Revan asks Titus multiple times to provide evidence and then states that the evidence she's providing isn't enough. (See #664#679#682#695) This is definitely something worth looking into.

@Revan - why the town read on me?

Scum is in {GL, EL, AS}

yes, this post tells us so much about who you want to lynch today and why you think they're scum

[Agent Sparkles]

@The people that want to lynch me today, who do you think my partner is?

This question has absolutely no pro-town purpose.

Revan is scum.

I could maybe see it coming from town if he wanted to show that partnerships involving him were unlikely, but even that's a stretch given how he hasn't done crap to convince everyone that he isn't the right lynch for today.

I still can't wrap my head around why scum would go for Tojam. It just doesn't make sense. They went for an obvious extension of the game, which plays to town's advantage. I think we're dealing with noob scum here.
I'd just like to get this out there: is it possible that scum could have chosen not to kill last night to make Tojam seem town? It's way out there and it's highly unlikely this happened, but it's still something to keep in mind. I think it's more likely that scum is noob though.

I'm trying to decide whether I think this is a LAMIST act or genuine confusion. I think it's strange that you brought it up at such a random time, and I don't really think that hitting him would harm scum (for reasons already outlined by SS plus the fact that we aren't making a lot of progress anyway), but I can see the thought process behind this.

And yes, tojam could mathematically be scum, but it would've required him, as an experienced player who should know not to take unnecessary risks like this, to guess that there's a jailkeeper but no bulletproof in the game (already very low), actually be right and not get countered (even lower), and nonetheless do it halfway through the day while he was at L-2 and no one had posted anything like an intent to hammer (lower still).

TL;DR: There exists somewhere a universe were tojam is scum, but the chances are so tiny that it would take a flat-out confession for me to vote him.

[Agent Sparkles]

@The people that want to lynch me today, who do you think my partner is?

I think EL>SS>GL at the moment. I can back this up soon but I'm going to bed for now

[Agent Sparkles]

TL;DR: There exists somewhere a universe where tojam is scum, but the chances are so tiny that it would take a flat-out confession for me to vote him.

Typo edit

[Agent Sparkles]

So individually, I townread tojam the most, followed by SS and then GL. For SS it's partially because of bowdown and partially because of herself, both of whom have been scumhunting in a proactive and believable way for the vast majority of the game. Also SS seems to fluctuate with her reads, but in a much more natural-looking way than Revan, as in she's actually being cautious and reconsidering her points rather than just flipping back and forth. For GL it's mostly because of his aggressive no-BS attitude toward logical flaws in people's arguments, especially misreps. Even if most of said points were directed at him, the fact that he's not letting anything slide and that he pushed so boldly on Titus despite the possible backlash today seems town-motivated. The only real problems I have with GL right now are his recent desire for people to vote so quickly in MYLO and his abrupt switch back to tunneling Revan with conviction after sidelining him for Titus, hence why he's below SS. EL is still a bit of a conundrum for me; her apologetic response to tojam was decently satisfying, and that was the main thing that pinged me about her, but I still don't particularly townread her. I'm going to do some rereading on her soon so I can formulate a stronger opinion.

Now we get to associations. It’s pretty much established at this point that if Revan is scum, his partner is bussing him. In itself that’s pretty believable, since it’s hard to ignore his scumtells and he was likely on death row as soon as Titus got lynched. But the ways that all of his possible partners have bussed him are different; GL was one of the first people to pursue a lynch on him on day 1, and Revan soon returned the favor and tunneled him along with JaeReed. This seems like an awfully risky way to bus your partner, because I’d think (correct me if I’m wrong) that scum would have a pretty slim chance of both surviving if they were at each other’s throats from the beginning.
Verdict: Not likely partners

Later EL expressed a scumread on him and Revan “self-saved” on to her, though it was when they were already the top suspects and the nancy wagon didn’t exist yet. Meanwhile Revan tries to say that he has a slight townread on EL, but he can’t even stick to that view, strongly implying and even saying at one point that he had voted his scumread. This seems like it could be a poor attempt to disassociate with her without actually trying to get her lynched.
Verdict: Could be partners

As for SS, she came in with a scumread on Revan as opposed to what her predecessor thought late d1/early d2. One thing that was consistent between them is that they both scumread him for a while and then hesitated on it, with bowdown even changing to a townread on him for reasons that I still find odd and never found a resolution for. As I said before, her hesitance on Revan could be a last-ditch effort to change people’s minds, or it could just be town caution.
Verdict: Could be partners

I’m fairly sure that Revan is ineffective scum, so I’d like to see these become talking points tomorrow, if not today before a lynch goes through. We should all do some more ISO reading overnight as well.

[Agent Sparkles]

Probably should have put that text wall in a spoiler now that I think about it

[Agent Sparkles]

You know what, we're pretty much running in place now, and almost everyone is fixed on Revan anyway. @SS, I'm alright with lynching him 24 hours from now.

[Agent Sparkles]

@Revan @tojam2 @GuiltyLion @EccentricLemon

Any more thoughts to share?

[Agent Sparkles]

VOTE: GL

This is mafia 100%

You'd better have a good case in the next ~12 hours if you don't want to know what rope feels like.

[Agent Sparkles]

@The people that want to lynch me today, who do you think my partner is?

This question has absolutely no pro-town purpose.

Revan is scum.

Actually I would like to take a sec and explain why S_S is right here and you shouldn't have answered this question. All this information does is help Revan's partner make a good NK to give them the best chance of winning. When you start talking about who you would like to lynch in future days, it gives scum hints about who they should kill and creates WIFOM over who stays alive. Always focus on today's target, and give snapshots of your reads to be transparent, but sometimes it's really anti-town to lay your cards down and show everyone exactly what you're thinking.

Fair enough, but at least town has my advice in case I get NK'ed.

[Agent Sparkles]

Time to crash this party.

VOTE: Revan

[Agent Sparkles]

Good game, everyone. It was a fun ride.

[Agent Sparkles]

VOTE: VOTE: GuiltyLion

The name says it all, he's guilty and he's lion. Also keep an eye out for TriangleShark, because the triangle part implies he's working with the illuminati.

@kentofan @Bulbazoor

If I'm not mistaken, you'll be replaced if you don't confirm within the 72 hours.

[Agent Sparkles]

^that's called pro bussing

[Agent Sparkles]

*GL quickhammers nancy*

npz

In fairness, the deadline was only a few hours away and he'd posted an intent to hanmer.

[Agent Sparkles]

*hammer

@SirCakez, I'm fine with the scum PT being released.

[Agent Sparkles]

Lol @ nancy and Jae still having the highest post counts when the game ends

Nancy, I actually think he was scummier than EL for most of the game, I just didn't let on about it.

[Agent Sparkles]

That's part of the point. I doubt I would've considered her obvtown if I was town, but my "scumread" on her was mostly a legacy read + keeping up appearances. Also, it gave me a chance to come up with a scumteam that didn't include any of my supposed townreads.

[Agent Sparkles]

also AS you played real well this game! made my job easy. thanks for being such a great partner in crime

Thanks, it was fun being partnered with you! I think there were some flaws in my scumplay, but they're just examples for next time.

Yeah AS's lurking and posting timings were really spot-on imo throughout Day 2 and Day 3. The long lurk Day 1 after getting Townread and the lack of solid stances early in Day 2 I think was the only scumclaim-y stuff.

My inactivity actually wasn't because of my alignment. I try to be active and immerse myself in the game whether I'm town or scum, but I didn't post much at times due to irl factors that were partially my fault.

[Agent Sparkles]

Also, I don't know if anyone noticed, but I wasn't paying very close attention and accidentally contradicted myself about SS from 914 to 916. I got super paranoid and frustrated at myself after that because I thought I might've wrecked my towncred, but thankfully town didn't catch on and I think I gave a decent explanation in 924.

[Agent Sparkles]

I was the roleblocker btw

[Agent Sparkles]

I may or may not have obsessively kept checking the thread for replies in those last couple of irl days.

[Agent Sparkles]

Dang, nancy, you really saw through us.

Sorry if it seemed like I was rubbing it in. 972 was sarcasm, since my entrance was really anything but pro. I got cocky toward the end, but I didn't mean to come across as obnoxious.

Kudos to the town for making the game a challenge for us. I was actually intimidated by bowdown's d2 opening.

[Agent Sparkles]

Thanks nancy!

Jae, did you ever remember why you thought I was partnered with nancy?