Newbie 1795 | Summer | Endgame

[Papa Zito]

Oh hello I'm Papa Zito I'll be your IC for the evening. Try the swordfish, it goes great with copypasta.

As an IC I have a kind of double role in this game. First I'm a player like everyone else, so I'll be playing to my win condition (town BTW) just like you guys will. It'll be up to the rest of you to decide if I'm evil manipulative lying scum or not. But my other role is as sort of a mentor, and here I am bound by Being a Good IC. Feel free to ask questions about game mechanics, how things work, what things mean, and so forth and rest assured that I won't lead you astray on these topics. In that vein I suggest everyone read Commonly Used Abbreviations to get up-to-date on the lingo. I also recommend everyone read the rules carefully in any game you play, as each mod tends to have his/her own ruleset.

In other news, being the incredibly skilled player that I am, I've already found our first scum.

VOTE: Cero68

[Papa Zito]

I'm curious why you feel the need to defend Cero68, jjh927.


Good lord the numbers.

[Papa Zito]

The subtext of your curiosity there implies that you would rather I didn't? I am attacking a poor argument and seeing where the conversation goes after that.

Be careful about trying to read subtext and tone online.

Look at me giving out free life advice.

Are you not the least bit curious how Cero68 himself would have reacted to said poor argument?

[Papa Zito]

What did you think of my earlier interactions with Fykus?

Not terribly interesting.

Why Dyou think he's scum then Zito or was it and just pressure?

If it was just pressure do you think it's a good idea to admit to that?

To answer the first: Reasons. Powerful reasons.

[Papa Zito]

Alright so I want to change my vote to "start the ball rolling":

UNVOTE: jjh927
VOTE: cinderella

Why cinderella and why now?

[Papa Zito]

I didn't see them post anything and to be honest I still feel like I'm grasping at straws at this point in the game. Also from my resistance experience I don't really like those who stay quite (but yet again this is mafia so that logic might not transfer over exactly).

jj voted for similar reasons, why not help him out?

[Papa Zito]

I wanted to get a feel for the other not so active players. Mind you it is just the second day that this game started, but more information is better.

How are you going to "get a feel" for a player who hasn't posted yet?

The problem is that he hasn't followed up on the pressure at all

r u sure

[Papa Zito]

I think you're just mad that I said your conversation wasn't interesting. :3

[Papa Zito]

What argument? You've set some sort of expectation for me and then arbitrarily decided I'm not meeting said expectation. You say in one post I'm not scumhunting and then in the next complain about my target. I'm not sure why you think I should take anything you're saying seriously. In a typical game I'd just ignore you but I don't want the kids to think you actually have a point.

[Papa Zito]

[1]You've voted Cero for pressure purposes and done a little bit of poking around.

That's where there's already an inconsistency. [2]Scumhunting takes a balance of the two forms of pressure one can exert- the vote, and the verbal case. You placed your vote but have done nothing if anything that actively pushes the second agenda. You have not asked the kind of questions that elicit responses that can go places. [3]Thus, you are not scumhunting, but merely asking questions to make it seem as though you are doing so.

[4]If you are to refute this, then tell me the purpose of the questions you have asked so far. What did you hope to gain in the way of that which can be pushed?

[5]Secondly, you are treating our little conversation here differently to how I am. An ad hominen attack followed by that beautiful statement "I don't want the kids to think you actually have a point" is blatant posturing, by its very definition. You are trying to discredit me as a player and affirm yourself in a position of authority. [6]You are trying to lead the other players away from my argument. It's deception.

Numbered for maximum convenience.

1. Are you sure I voted just for "pressure purposes"? You seem to have indicated earlier you didn't know why I placed my vote.
2. There's no One True Way to Play. I have my own style and by and large it works for me. I'm going to ask the questions I want to ask and I'm going to question the players I want to question. I'm not going to start playing a different way to suit your tastes. And I sure as hell am not interested in making cases on page 5.
3. This is what I meant earlier about your setting arbitrary expectations and then saying I fail them. womp womp
4. I refuse to answer this question.
5. Nah. It's my years of experience recognizing that the dumb stuff I normally can ignore in games with vet players I have to actually address here because new players often get persuaded by the guy who's making the most noise. We can call it Zito's Newbie Lament.
6. Well yeah, duh, of course I'm leading people away from your arguments, your arguments are all really bad. I'm not trying to deceive anyone here, I'm blatantly calling them terrible and saying why. I don't really relish the idea of having to defend myself from a constant stream of poor attacks when I'm trying to get shit done.

I was kinda going for the real-time 1V1 but he seems to have vanished.

(posted at 2:24 AM)

---

Why are you pushing cero here? Cero seems to have voted that guy simply to get him to post.

That does indeed seem to be what he was doing.

[Papa Zito]

You'll want to use v instead of b.

[ v ]Papa Zito[/ v ] without the spaces makes VOTE: Papa Zito



VOTE: Cero68 cuz I don't want that to stick obv

[Papa Zito]

Yeah I've already pointed out the glaring and addressable flaw. The core of your argument is "you're not playing the way I want" with some windowdressing and my response to that is "idgaf"

There's really nothing else to be said here so I'm dropping this convo.

[Papa Zito]

Zito what are your thoughts on fykus?

Fykus is an obvious alt, so I'm curious to see what he'll do.


@Town: If I could make a suggestion, a better use of your time would be to watch my interactions with Cero68 and judge both my questions and his responses instead of guessing at intent before it all plays out. You'll get a lot more information that way.



P.S. The Cero/Cece thing is gonna kill me.

[Papa Zito]

:/

[Papa Zito]

Reason: This person might not even be playing and it would be weird if I kept a vote on them. Not voting on anyone else yet until Thursday when I have more time to read the post and come to my own conclusions.

So your reason here is correct, which is why I've been questioning you about that vote. There's no point voting someone who hasn't shown up and potentially never will.

That said I still don't understand why you didn't join jj instead of just flat unvoting. If you're attempting to pressure lurkers into posting why not help him with someone who has checked in vs leaving your vote completely off?

[Papa Zito]

Zito seems to only be focusing on cero at the moment.

FTR I'm reading everything, but I find it much more useful to let other people's convos play out than to bully my way into them.

[Papa Zito]

Hey zito, if/when should we commence the bp/not bp schtick?

I actually don't know what this is. Explain?

[Papa Zito]

So many replacements. whoosh


I get The Plan but it seems to hinge on the scums not getting a successful bp fakeclaim off. Maybe I'm not thinking things through and that's not a legit worry tho.

[Papa Zito]

Why do you think a pressure vote loses some of its strength if its declared to be a pressure vote? I could see the argument for a larger game, but with only 9, each vote carries sufficient strength regardless in my opinion.

I disagree with your opinion. I think not knowing whether or not I've seen something damning generates far more pressure than simply declaring "I'm dogpiling on you for lulz" regardless of how many players are in the game. But this is just a theory argument.

[Papa Zito]

It's hard to play mafia without players.

[Papa Zito]

Also to answer Papa Zito's question on this post, I'm not completely sure what I get from you. Of course I'm not thrilled with getting immediately voted by you right away, but I feel like your trying to get the ball rolling and are analyzing reactions and responses from others. I can't really say you lean scum since the only real thing you've done is voted for me and watched people from there. Point is that it's early and none of your actions actually justify a vote at this stage.

Welcome back d00d.

I'm afraid that doesn't really address my question. I'm not terribly concerned what your view of me is. I'm more looking for an explanation about

A: Why did you choose to vote a slot that hadn't posted

at all

; and
B: Why you didn't place your vote on a wagon that jj supported since he was doing the exact same thing you're doing. I'm not a math nerd but if your goal is to pressure lurkers surely 2 votes > 1 vote?

[Papa Zito]

I'm actually an alt. Do I win a prize?

NM, what do you think about Fykus? Town/Scum?

I just saw this on reddit: https://www.wired.com/2009/10/schwarzenegger/

[Papa Zito]

Catching up on stuff.

[Papa Zito]

Catching up on stuff.

What is there to catch up on that's worth posting about it?

I'm not typically around on weekends. When I checked the thread on Monday it was locked.

[Papa Zito]

I could but that's a lot of wasted effort if I was gonna end up NKed anyway. Even if I wasn't it's nice to read knowing the alignment of the person who did flip.

[Papa Zito]

Still reading. However -

Nm youre trying to bait one out

Inexplicable

It's tchill+fykus

I believe this may have been a signal.

[Papa Zito]

This was the state of the game when Not_Mafia claimed.

Vote Count 1.08

Fykus

(2): Kawl, Tchill13

Not_Mafia

(2): Cece, Cero68

jjh927

(1): Not_Mafia

Cero68

(1): Papa Zito

Kawl

(1): Fykus

Not Voting

(2): jjh927, Arnold Schwarzenegger

Very likely town

* TChill countered, preventing the bp fakeclaim from working in the first place.
* jj initially proposed the bp strat to the town and followed up on it.
* Cece voted Not_Mafia unprompted, with a pretty good case, prior to the bp claim.

Likely town

* Cero was also on Not_Mafia, unprompted, prior to the claim, which earns townpoints. Reasoning wasn't as strong as Cece's and I'm not thrilled with any of the rest of this slot's play in general but that's enough for me to not want to pursue him today.

Neutral

* Arnold spent a lot of energy tearing down Not_Mafia's attempted defense. He could have simply stayed quiet or even supported the claim. I can't give him full marks though as bussing in some form clearly happened.

Scummy

* Kawl was opposed to the strategy even though it improved town's odds of winning, including refusing to claim when prompted. There were 0 interactions between these slots beforehand and Not_Mafia never responded to Kawl's posts post-counterclaim. After the counter, Kawl attempts to shut down discussion as fast as possible. In addition, Fykus was voting this slot before the claim.


VOTE: Kawl

[Papa Zito]

Hmm. I read those posts entirely differently but I'll let Cece address them.

[Papa Zito]

Zito, your whole reads list seems to be based on who was on NM before he claimed and who was participating in the BP strategy.
How was Cece's case "pretty good" and how does it make him "very likely town"?

I think people who voted a scumslot prior to the claim are more likely to be town than not, yes. There was really no reason to bus at that point and put attention on a partner who was essentially lurking, especially when there were other soft targets and even more espeicallyer when the game had very little movement. I also think the people who were pushing the strategy are more likely town as well because that strategy is clearly in the town's best interests.

[Papa Zito]

I completely agree with you on it taking some of the fun out of the game and I really would like to see the setup fixed so it's no longer a factor. That said, I have a wincon to play to and that strat helps me achieve it.

[Papa Zito]

I just don't think it's AI to not want to participate.

I think tchill explained it better than I have. Regardless, I made a handful of other points against him.

[Papa Zito]

no objection to that. I just think it's odd you used that as the first argument against him.

Odd how? What does the order have to do with anything?

[Papa Zito]

good lord almighty

[Papa Zito]

"AI" = "Alignment Indicative". Saying

some action

isn't AI means a town player is just as likely as a scum player to do

some action

.

[Papa Zito]

Zito other than me who's your town reads so far? I read jj as town but I'm not too sure about anyone else. Honestly it just seems like there's not enough activity to go off of. Could just be me though.

May I direct you to post 406.

[Papa Zito]

Those are my reads based on our wagons and flips.

I see where jj is coming from with that case but he doesn't really address why she'd be on Not_Mafia at that moment in time. Her defense is weak (and hard to read ffs) but I'm more inclined to let those two play than get involved really.

I mostly want Kowls to get in here and do things.

[Papa Zito]

I assume you always start with your biggest reasons to scumread someone when you put out a readslist like that.

I also think as the IC you should know better than to scumread someone for something like that.

For your first - that's probably a bad assumption. Assumptions lose games. Don't make assumptions. Regarding your second, you have absolutely no idea how utterly sick I am of reading that sentiment.

Zito, are your reads purely based on "wagons and flips"? Are they affected at all by the way people are posting, or their motives &c? Cause seems to me that just having reads based on things ilke those is a bit of an easy way to not be forced to argue so much.

For instance, I reckon the point that I was on NMs case before he claimed BP a bit off, cause really when I voted him he wasn't at risk of a lynch. Same w Cero, I guess, and while from just a wagon analysis it might seem pretty strong, from a posting one it doesn't, so much. I reckon, say, posting styles throughout would be a better way to get reads, but you dont really mention that.

The foundation of my reads are based on wagons and flips yes. Votes and alignment reveals are hard data.

You may reckon as you wish. I've already explained my reasoning.

[Papa Zito]

Hey zito, if/when should we commence the bp/not bp schtick?

I actually don't know what this is. Explain?

[Papa Zito]

So I think the fact that you'd argue against a strategy that's known for helping town win is questionable.

TChill explained it concisely and well here. Why is this hard to understand?

[Papa Zito]

Can you put together some reasoning why plz

[Papa Zito]

Quote striping because I'm not in a great mood.

a) what scum in their right mind will be vocal about challenging it?

There's a very simple calculus here.

X

improves town's chances of winning. You opposed

X

. Therefore, you opposed improving town's chances of winning.

Which alignment desires this outcome more?

c) NM's style of free posting responses without quoting most of the time makes it kind of hard to definitely state that.

Actually I looked back and found an example where he does respond to you so I withdraw this point.

d) I tried to shut down discussion as quickly as possible by.....not hammering? I specifically didn't hammer so that you could have a chance to weigh in and so we could hear from everyone.

Your first post regarding the issue was this:

Yea NMs argument here just seems pretty empty.

Is there ever a situation in which both are scum counting on being "conftown" after the scum lynch? Nah that's too crazy right. I see no reason to believe NM over tchill. TCs been a more active and meaningful poster so there's that as well.

What all is there to discuss past this point?

This post advocates shutting down discussion.

e) Yea conf town Fykus was voting for me, but at this point all but one vote are made in earnest this game. this strikes me as lazy.

You misunderstood my point. It has nothing to do with Fykus being conftown, it has to do with Fykus being dead. Just prior to the claim, he was voting you, which clearly indicates he was suspicious of you. I'm positing the Fykus kill fits scum!Kawl as a defensive move.

[Papa Zito]

Can you put together some reasoning why plz

You're scumreading Kawl for bad reasons.
You're townreading Cece for bad reasons.

All of your reads are based on who took part in the BP strategy or whether or not they were on NM before he claimed.

Yes my reads are based on wagons and flips, aka hard data.

Riddle me this: Why would scum me so drastically whittle down my options this way?

[Papa Zito]

Neither player voting NM before he claimed had much reason to. That's not hard data.

A vote is hard data, period. That's why we force people to make them. It's a historical record of a stance at a given point in time. jfc I know this is a newbie but come on

Also they both offered cases when they made their votes so bzzzzt

Willingness to take part in the BP strategy is also not hard data.

When it's been clearly demonstrated

in this very game

to improve town's chances of winning, why yes it is.

You are also ignoring all other points made and focusing solely on this thing for reasons?

Reasons for scum you limiting your options: so you can single out Kawl and hard-tunnel him to death. Then tomorrow you can be like: oh shit what do I do now? I have to reassess my townreads. While today you can give behind those townreads to buddy up the "towny players".

I'm insulted.

[Papa Zito]

To me at least hard data are basically objective facts. Soft data would be stuff like behavioral patterns or anything else that requires interpretation.

I'm insulted because that's incredibly subpar play. Scum need options, limiting myself as scum is stupid. If my "hard tunnel" (note - this conversation means that point is moot) fails and I don't get that lynch then I'm stuck. Or if Kawl suddenly turns on the gas and reveals himself to be the best mafia player ever then I can't NK him.


Getting back to the original topic - is there not anything more concrete to your case than the fact you dislike my reads? Is there not any other player who you view as worse for any reason? If I were lynched today and flipped town what would you do next?

[Papa Zito]

Hold on, is this me questioning Zito's motivations? (ps. is this him refusing to elucidate opinions -- p much his only opinion as far as I can recall that isn't based on wagons and vote counts??)

the irony

[Papa Zito]

You just voted me with 0 reasoning whatsoever

after complaining I don't post reasoning


I love newbie games ya'll

[Papa Zito]

Unless the joke is an actual reason now?

While still being a joke?

[Papa Zito]

Ok thanks.

I've once again hit that "you're not playing how I want" wall. sigh


A takeaway from this game that I will reiterate when it's over - you need to be looking at motivations behind actions, not just actions themselves. You need to be looking at things in context, not in isolation. What you really should be asking is "why did Zito decide to apply a vote to someone and not explain why" instead of just saying "he refused to explain why!" You should be asking "why is Zito more interested in looking at votes just before the claim, why does he put more weight on interactions with the flipped scum slot, who does that benefit?" instead of "he just looks at facts!" What you should be examining is which team benefits from my actions?


I'll check back in later today.

[Papa Zito]

I don't see this as an attempt at scum hunting from Cece it comes off more as a warning to her partner to me. Maybe I'm just pushing a certain view point too much which is why I'd like jj and zitos opinions.

First, never worry about pushing too much. Trust your gut but always be willing to re-evaluate.

To answer your question - I'm really unsure about Cece. This got a little long, let me break it up.

- The points made about 185 are good, that was a clever way to tie me to Not_Mafia. At the time I just read it as a joke but since it's now been used against me I suppose that's not true which gives your point here some weight.
- I think the idea of 175 being a warning is a bit more of a stretch though - Not_Mafia is the senior of the two in terms of experience, does it make sense for her to warn him about anything? If they were scum together surely he warned her ahead of time that he tends to lurk?
- 224 didn't read as a defense to me at first but yeah I can see it.

I'd also like to see Zito's response to jj voting Arnold. Like I said Cece and Arnold are my 2 scum leans at this point.

His only play today has been on me so that makes me a bit biased. I get the point though. Arnie is suddenly arguing that I'm a mislynch when his vote is sitting on me. He's not a townread but I don't think there's more evidence to point towards him then Kawl or perhaps Cece.

[Papa Zito]

I just get really bad feelings about jj suddenly hard defending you. How do you read this?

UNVOTE:

My personal opinion is that if you feel strongly enough about a townread then you should defend them. If nothing else the debate may help other players with their reads.


Also Tchill is correct, Kawl has disappeared after the initial heat died down. I appreciate everyone's concerns on Cece and Arnold but I'd really like to see some more movement there.

[Papa Zito]

Zito, why the sudden questioning of your read on me? I was strong town at the start of the day, then you change tack pretty much right after I make the case on you, and are suddenly 'really unsure' (519) --- especially since you don't have an updated read on anything new I've done, it's purely based on points other people have made that you didn't find scummy before. Why the change of heart?

Perhaps you should try actually reading my posts instead of Ctrl-Fing your name? This has been addressed.

Could you also answer my other question about why you couldn't NK kawl? (511)

Because I'd have invested too much into making him a lynch candidate. Scum me needs a nice big pool of dirty townies to swim in.

[Papa Zito]

Sorry if it looks that way, I have been reading through everything.

And yeah, you did explain your reasoning, but I wasn't asking that - I was pointing out the suddenness of the read. Specifically, that it was your very first post after the case I made, an there hadn't really be a hint of it before. Or, at least, not such as I could see. I was wanting to know the reasoning behind the timing of the switch.

There's been an extensive conversation about you today. Other players are making points that I've been considering. I've put my thoughts about those points in the thread. I'm not sure what else you want from me.

[Papa Zito]

The dude is confirmed town unless someone counterclaims. The way you're trying to out other PRs is extremely antitown.

Do you think as scum I would defend NM in that spot, knowing 100% he was going to get counterclaimed?

Arnold can you talk about these quotes plz.

[Papa Zito]

nvm I misread the 2nd quote

[Papa Zito]

To be fair, Kawl promised content tonight, so I'd wait to judge that slot for inactivity.

FTR I have jj as a solid town read at this point.

[Papa Zito]

Yea generally busy on the weekends.

Not hiding in the shadows because the pressure has disappeared lol

At work for the next 8 hours but will be back after that

[Papa Zito]

I'm fairly confident the game ends after we lynch Zito/Kawl

If we're equivalent why not join me on Kawl?

[Papa Zito]

How so?

[Papa Zito]

Well as there's literally one scum left, it really shouldn't matter who else is on the wagon. Clearly he's wrong about at least one of us.

On the other hand, people have spoken out in opposition to my lynch, so he's not likely going to find traction there. Instead of parking his vote on me he could instead attempt to push you, since you're still a possibility and if we're truly equally scumread as his posts seem to indicate then he still accomplishes the goal of getting a scumread lynched. Therefore I find his lack of vote movement puzzling.

[Papa Zito]

The way you start at the conclusion and work backwards really reveals your mindset.

[Papa Zito]

What the hell

[Papa Zito]

is this more weird newbie meta stuff


I honestly have no idea why you guys have a problem with that.

[Papa Zito]

Well atleast we've netted 2 potential scums from this already.

Ones possibly a fake claim and the other refuses to participate in a pro-town strategy "because they want to scum hunt"

this seems pretty clear

[Papa Zito]

Mainly I wanted to see what others thought, since I thought it was a pretty bad argument because a) fykus' reaction to the claim soft outing as pr is a more reasonable explanation of why he was NKd

What's this?

[Papa Zito]

That's a hell of a stretch.

Remember we're talking about the scum's perspective prior to a Fykus flip. I sure as hell wouldn't guess he was PR from that, especially given N_M's posting prior.

[Papa Zito]

You're trying to say the only reason someone would be suspicious of his claim is because they're a PR, which simply isn't the case. Given his earlier shitposting it's completely natural to ask whether the claim was just more of the same.

For example:

We may already have a resolution. If Not_Mafia is telling the truth then we're already done. If he was just shitposting then he is seriously getting lynched.

If the scum team was just looking for "players who were immediately suspicious of NMs claim" why didn't jj bite the bullet? He echoed Fykus' suspicious directly afterwards.

[Papa Zito]

That's not what you said. Let's review.

So I think they were particularly on the hunt for any players who were immediately suspicious of NMs claim.

There were multiple players who were immediately suspicious. Surely something else separated Fykus from the pack.


Which also included Cece by the way

I reckon we should probs wait to see if he's shitposting before anyone else confirms/unconfirms.

[Papa Zito]

Nah you've changed your story.

"They killed him because he was suspicious of NK!"
"Well here's some other people who were suspicious too"
"Oh well he was suspicious

first

"

really?

[Papa Zito]

Well atleast we've netted 2 potential scums from this already.

Ones possibly a fake claim and the other refuses to participate in a pro-town strategy "because they want to scum hunt"

this seems pretty clear

bonk

[Papa Zito]

Reasoning isn't relevant, his position was pretty clear. It's the read that matters.

Anyway enough of that.

[Papa Zito]

I just don't see an IC saying that as town.

I'm

soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

tired of this

On the other hand, we've had this discussion framed as a one-issue debate, so Zito- could you go over any other reasons you still think Kawl might be scum for again?

This may be the correct time to bring up mafiascum dot net slash forum's handy dandy "iso" feature.

At the bottom of the thread, you'll see this:


This list has everyone who's posted in this thread in it. If you select someone and push the "Go" button, something magical happens:


NEAT

However, you can do even better. If you push the [+] button you get ANOTHER dropdown:


Now you can isolate TWO people. This is great for reading back-and-forth debates, or looking at someone and the moderator so you can see where wagons were.



Iso well, iso often!

[Papa Zito]

I need to give this game a full reread. I'll get that done today.

[Papa Zito]

Didn't finish last night, will finish it today.

[Papa Zito]

Arnold I'll check out yr games tonight or tomorrow. Am also wanting that readthrough from Zito before I make any proper decisions.

Why are you waiting on me?

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: Cero68

After the reread I feel this is correct.

[Papa Zito]

^ I agree with this. And if you do declare intent to hammer you better be very clear why you're doing it.

[Papa Zito]

I'd like to hear people engaging me of the content I posted so far.

Seems to be a rehash of what people have already said.

[Papa Zito]

I'm sure the others will be around shortly.

[Papa Zito]

Wait, is the proposal of the BP claim strat seriously the only thing that Zito townreads me for?

What no. I mainly townread you because you're clearly trying to solve the game.

Zito, I'm waiting for a substantial post from you cause I'm in between you and Arnold, and so of course I want it before I decide.

That's not how this works. If you want to know something ask.

[Papa Zito]

Not avoiding anything, just didn't have the time to do anything in-depth here until this evening.


My issues with Cero68's play are two fold. First is a lack of presence. The following posts lack any substance. They are essentially active lurking - making the odd comment and talking about things not related to the game. This is primarly earlier on, later the second pattern emerges.
- 7, 13, 17, 24, 26, 31, 65, 69, 72, 73, 76, 86, 88, 484, 486, 488, 579, 680


The second issue is Cero68 was very much following the crowd.
- 78, 81, 83, 130 were the Cinderella vote and aftermath. At this time discussion was around pressuring lurkers, so Cero follows along and votes a lurker. I pushed on this vote because I didn't understand why he chose to vote a different lurker than the one already being pressured. Instead of moving to the other lurker he simply unvotes. If the point was pressure why not move the vote then?
- 187 is the Not_Mafia vote, which I felt earlier was a towntell since it was unprompted and on what's now a known scum player. What's odd is that after post after post of nothing we suddenly not only had a good post but it was also correct. It sticks out among all the other posts, especially the ones that come later where Cero attempts another case on someone. It also sticks out because it's the one time Cero chooses not to follow someone else's lead.
- 482 and 485, we once again have following-the-crowd posting. jj has been talking about me, low and behold here's Cero also doing the same. Nothing new is brought to the table though, and if you actually read what's there it's very wishy-washy. "I'm a little worried", "I guess", "generally", "I'm trying", etc.
- In 509 jj votes Arnold after declaring me town. Cero's response in 526? Suddenly it's time to talk about Arnold as well, and suddenly I'm a townread. Cero follows up with a very poor case in 571, further explained in 573. In contrast to the Not_Mafia vote this one is makes little sense. "My main reason was his argument against Zito due to my reads on Zito" - this is a hell of a leap to make when my alignment is unknown, especially given earlier "doubts".
- 698 jj starts putting heavy pressure on Cero. In response Cero replaces out.

So yeh I think this is a scum slot.

[Papa Zito]

What's the scum motivation in pressuring a different lurker than the one that jj was pressuring?

It was being done to fit in. "The townies are doing

X

, I should do

X

too." When that failed he bailed on it and went dark for some time.

I actually thought Cero had a pretty good point on Not_Mafia.

He did! And I gave him credit for it. And got a ton of shit for giving credit for it. In context of the rest of his play it sticks out though.

His hesitancy is also perfectly understable for the same reasons

Nah. I've played with plenty of newbies who were on fire and engaged. Your predecessor was the opposite. His early game he didn't know what to do so he made posts to feign activity, then later on he played follow-the-leader. I'll note here that nothing you've posted really addresses those points.

In fact, you bailing on the game once I replaced in and giving you more of a fight than a newbie you were pushing on feels more indicative of scum giving up.

I didn't bail on the game? I'm right here. I'm way less active on weekends - I ran sound at my daughter's Girl Scout bridging ceremony Saturday afternoon, I had church Sunday morning, every Saturday and Sunday I raid in Guild Wars 2 from 7-9 PM CST, etc. I work during the day and spend most of my time on here keeping an eye on sitechat. I do have time to make the odd post here or there, but not the hour it took to sit and comb the thread in detail.

I get that you replaced in, saw your partner was dead, identified your counterwagon, and have gone whole hog on it so you don't lose the game. That's fine. But please don't resort to trying to use my personal life against me. Thanks.

[Papa Zito]

Because it's factually incorrect? I'm still here? Hello?

[Papa Zito]

Look it's not factually incorrect that you were bailing/not here for ages

This may not be the worst argument in the history of mafiascum but it's got a seat at the table.

Let me break it down really really simply for you. Maybe you can follow this.

SECTION ONE

My last post before the weekend: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:02 pm
My first post after the weekend: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm

So my time period away from the game was not "ages" but more commonly referred to as a "weekend"

SECTION TWO

Now click this link
Hopefully this has educated you about what my status tends to be on this website during the time period commonly referred to as a "weekend" even though I already addressed this in great detail in an earlier post.

SECTION THREE

Hopefully you can now come to the correct conclusions that:
1. I was not avoiding the thread, nor was I gone "for ages", but simply away over the weekend; and
2. OH WAIT HEY I'M STILL FUCKING POSTING IN THE GAME I DIDN'T REPLACE OUT

THEREFORE

ZERO HYPOCRISY HAS OCCURRED

I hope you managed to follow this informative brochure.

[Papa Zito]

That's the hypocrisy!!

The educational system has failed you.

I'm so, so sorry.


I'll just reiterate that BlackVoid hasn't actually addressed any of the main points of my argument beyond "Cero was too noob to do those things you just said" so if you guys would like to actually I dunno read the words I'm typing and hammer that guy so we can win the game that'd be great. If you're really jonesing for another day of this nonsense tho hammer me and I'll be happy to watch you guys putter around tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

Why is Cece definitely town?

[Papa Zito]

Me either.

[Papa Zito]

Zito was disgustingly bad in the 1V1 with Blackvoid

Looks like I was pretty accurate.



Anything the new kids wanna talk about?

[Papa Zito]

No worries.


I hate the BP strategy too, but unfortunately it's useful so we're stuck with it until they come up with a new game setup.

[Papa Zito]

When you get set in your reads it's tough to reevaluate. It doesn't help that changing your mind on someone can often be seen as scummy.