Newbie 1817 - Bolo (Game Over)

[MotherGothel28]

I'm good with that logic!

[MotherGothel28]

VOTE: Aster

Lucky number 5

[MotherGothel28]

MotherGothel is holding a young girl hostage.

VOTE: MotherGothel28

How long does Ransome Voting Stage usually last?

Well, the young girl keeps me young, so I'm going to keep her

In my experience random voting doesn't last super long. This is my first game here, but I've played elsewhere, and people generally like to find stuff as soon as they can and get down to business (to defeat the Huns...)

[MotherGothel28]

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

Is this the most adorable town tell ever or fiendishly clever .

@Gorny, early thoughts?

I was thinking most adorable town tell ever lol

[MotherGothel28]

VOTE: Gorny His avatar looks super shady, or space ghosty but until he comes out of the shadows I can't be sure.

It's Batman

Dunno about a monkey smoking a cig though...

Looks unpredictable.

Avatar truce?

Or should I change it to my other standby: Jack O'Neill from Stargate SG-1?

Uh, YES!!

[MotherGothel28]

@aster, regarding your 61.....


We are in a newbie game after all. While it is possible that your #2 scenario is possible and adlim does know what those "roles" are... since this is his first game on site, for the moment, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of a doubt and assume that your #1 scenario is more likely the case.

Will have to wait and see how things progress...

^^^ exactly this.

This is a newbie game with someone who said he had only played the card game, so I honestly dislike the amount of reading into that which Aster is doing. It's a pretty scummy thing to make something bad out of an innocent question.

[MotherGothel28]

What is everyones Mafia experience level? I've played one game on the site, and lots more in person.

Fair question. This is my first game on this site, I have about 2 dozen games under my belt on another forum site, however most of which are from before 8 took about a 5 year break.

Since I've been back I've played about 6 games, half of which were in a private fb group me and some old friends I used to play with made. Fb makes it interesting in a new way lol.

[MotherGothel28]

Oh yeah, I also spent about 4 years playing in person in our church youth group every Friday night lol. It functioned basically the same, except there was less talk, and it was in a dark creepy church and we had to actually walk around and find dead bodies.

[MotherGothel28]

<---------

Pocket attempt SUCCESSFUL!!! I love him!!

[MotherGothel28]

Those eyes are creepy. And I thought jack was the nerdy guy, I'm slightly disappointed.

You can't be disappointed in McGuyver!

[MotherGothel28]

Yes! I loved when they actually threw McGuyver jokes into the shows script. I swear in one episode they threw in a few comments about needing duct tape and I couldn't stop laughing, my husband was so confused!!

[MotherGothel28]

Alright, now we are getting into the meat of the game!

Please note I very rarely break my thoughts out this way because it's usually not the best strategy. It distracts from what you want people to focus on, and it's often information that doesn't help anyone.

adilm29h

- the thing with the vote box seemed genuine, but the thing about roles under the name was extremely self-conscious. Fancy Pants, who he was voting, had "goon" under their name. Since he read FancyPants comments, he must have noticed, but he didn't mention it until the next post. His case is extremely tenuous, but most "cases" posted on page 2 are extremely tenuous, and he's trying to move the game forward. It's not the worst reasoning in the world, but he'd feature on my "possible scum" list.

Aster

is going to play our obvious townie for the day. She's got a sense of humor, but is also posting a lot of thoughts about the game and they're good ones. She notes that Adilm's question seems fake, and that's a damn good reason to vote someone. Her impatience doesn't seem to be of the "how will people react to me" variety (which can be scum) but the "why isn't more happening" variety, which mostly comes from town. Calling out MotherGothel28 is not only a great strategy to generate content by randomly putting someone on the hot seat to see what they do, but the mark of an experienced player - it's the sort of move that tells me that someone has a lot of mafia experience, and more than that has used that experience to get better at the game.

Despite the fact she's good, she's still obviously town. If she's scum she'll rank as one of the best players on MS if she keeps up at this rate, and if she's town she's still "merely" excellent.

Xa ligha

is interesting.

Spoiler: IC Stuff

I'm going to use this to highlight a mafiascum specific rule -

don't discuss ongoing games

- and explain how it works. Xa ligha mentions he has played one other game. That game is Newbie 1809. Now what is fair game and not fair game? I can mention if he's in other games. I can mention he's dead in that game (public information posted on the first page of the game). I can mention if he's posting on site in other threads. I cannot mention:

- any details about what he posts, how he posts, or his behavior in that game
- his alignment in that game (a backdoor way to do the above usually)
- any contrast between what he says in that game and here
- anything at all about any detail, action, or anything else that occurred in that game.

Once the game is over, I can discuss any and all of these things, but until then this is off limits. This is one of the most strictly enforced rule on Mafiascum - players have been modkilled in ongoing games for making threads in our "Mafia Discussion" forum that allowed players to infer they were town based on what they posted there. What Xa Ligha said (I've played one other game) is the most you should say, and discussing any details of that game is NOT ALLOWED in the strongest terms.

In this game xa ligha isn't giving much input. Nothing he's said is relevant to people's alignments. The "chill out" line feels slightly townie, because town is more likely to tell other players that they're playing wrong - scum are afraid of "playing wrong" and are less likely to call it out in that way. This is tentative, so it only gives me a small "lean town".

MotherGothel28

is someone who is spending a lot of posts doing very little. She calls out Aster for playing the game too seriously, but she doesn't follow up this "scummy" behavior with a vote. She is happy to talk about how she plays mafia, where she's played mafia, but she's not really playing mafia. In fact lately she's been deliberately NOT playing mafia and discussing McGuyver. Being generically friendly is a strong mafia strategy, and she didn't follow up on her Aster read at all. Lean scum.

FrozenMagpie

's call out of Aster is much better than MotherGothel's. First... well, it's first. Remember when I said "agreeing with a townie who is wrong is a strong scum move"? Simply being the first to say something makes it townier than the second to say something, for the most part. Second, it feels better thought out, while MG's feels like a throwaway's.

Gorny

is our power poster. He has 18 posts when the next closest player has 13. That sort of activity and enthusiasm usually yells town. But not always. He's out there, happy to post, not worrying about things. His vote on me for "not posting" was very neutral (it's 100% true, can't be argued with, but also doesn't commit him to anything because I fix it by posting - but also it's worth calling out people who aren't producing content). If he had more experience I'd find it scummier. I find his general commitment to be a little meh. He calls out Aster and derails her case in post #68, which doesn't particularly move the game forward. It could be defending a newbie from an unjust attack, but not adding anything else to the game it feels content for the game to flounder. Still, it's also just a mark of inexperience - it's hard to realize games have to move forward, and early reasons will often be slightly spurious (although it's far from impossible to catch scum on page 1). Lean slight town.

Fancy Pants

gets an amazing number of town points for post #25. I'm a little surprised that a 2012 join date has as few games as he does, so I feel like he might be someone's alt. His vote on Gorny where it is is pretty damn solid. I like him as town.

Draynth

rounds out the lot. And I wish I had more to say, but his four posts don't give me much to work with.

So for my current ordering:

Aster
Frozen Magpie
Fancy Pants
------
Xa ligha
Gormy
Draynth
-----
adamlhi
MotherGothel28

Vote Mother Gothel28

Spoiler:

Note: It's always worth having a vote down on your strongest suspect. Voting commits you to a read, and vote patterns can be used to spot scum. Voting is a tool, but it should only be targeted at people you believe (at that moment) are scum. Your reads should evolve over the course of the game, nothing I posted above is set in stone.

First, I do appreciate that you're mostly keeping your guidance and gameplay separate, as in my experience it is (as you said) pretty easy for scum to skate by as town just for seeming helpful by posting nothing but facts about the game.

Second, and more importantly at this point, just because I have said something is scummy doesn't mean I have drawn a town or scum read on that player so far. Even more so, it is suspicious when something as obvious as a vote is missed, as my vote is already on Aster. Would you have wanted me to re-vote for them? That doesn't make any sense, and is a very weak situation with a

huge

hole in it to base a vote on. That reads to me as someone who isn't paying attention to the game, which is unlikely for town trying to make a full reads list as you just managed to. Scum however are much more likely to skim the thread looking for anything they can make a false case against. My plan tonight was to go back and reread the thread, but you just rushed yourself to the top of my scum list.

I would like to know what other players think of that huge piece of missed information in this early case against me.

UNVOTE: Aster
VOTE: GreyICE

[MotherGothel28]

Uhhh... Idk what I did there, I tried to use spoiler tags to hide the bulk of that post without actually deleting it, so I could respond to the relevant section, I'm sorry for getting my tags wrong. If anyone can let me know what I did wrong so I don't do it again, that would be helpful. I was replying to post #96 for the record, the bit about me.

[MotherGothel28]

You know, I've made up my mind. ^^
I'll compromise.

UNVOTE: Gorny
VOTE: FrozenMagpie

Stop folding, you're making the game too easy.

But... But...
I've only got a frail, weak little flower stalk...
Even the wind itself can fold me over ;_;
I don't have any backbone like you humans do.
Please stop applying your human standards to me ;_;

This feels extremely forced, at first I just moved past it, but each time I read this it jumps out at me again and again, so worth a mention IMO.

Explanation for new players:

An example of a possible scumtell that just surfaced: why did Gorny take the posts seemingly seriously? Is he just unfamiliar with the process, or did him feeling threatened because he actually was Mafia form a contributing factor?

That scum tell sucks, but you seeing scum tells in pedestrian behaviour gets you paranoid town points.

VOTE: Gorny

I actually like this, not afraid to ruffle feathers, which is generally not where scum will want to start out this early.

@FancyPants: I, Aster, the highly paranoid and absolutely insufferable townie, demand an explanation as to why you just voted Gorny.

Again, this feels amazingly forced, it is even awkward to read. Likely this was to jab back at what he felt was a personal insult, but announcing early on anything along the lines of "I am town" is just unnecessary. I likely would have let it slide if I didn't already have another awkward post. Scum are awkward when they're new to the game or a site, I've seen it elsewhere.

Hopefully people are just busy on the weekend, what are your thoughts since you're about?

Uh, I'm not really thinking much. You and Aster have a small thing going but I don't feel like it's really indicative of anything. You could both be town or you could both be scum or you could be 1town and 1scum. If what you said earlier had been worded differently, there might not even have been a debate at all.

Pretty non-committal, how do you feel about Asters 3 point case on me?
@Gormy, just seemed eager to appease Aster, any scum leanings thus far?

The case seemed like a bit much for a response to a one sentence post regarding poor scumreads. I kind of understand where Aster is coming from with some of the points, but don't necessarily agree with point two. Why should people be worried about paranoid town points? Wouldn't being a little paranoid help in this situation? Surely some players as scum can fake being town well enough that not being paranoid would lead to quick townread. It was odd that you voted Gorny after kind of defending him, that's not something that seems normal. But I'm not so sure that scum would slip up so early or that a player with a bit of experience would vote a team member so early.

What about Xa ligha/Xalxe scumteam

Though, I'm not sure if the above was serious or not
Kind of chuckling quietly here.

It wasn't serious. I'm aware that Xalxe isn't a player

Good points here, and again someone not afraid to argue and ruffle feathers, I like it.

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

I am highly sceptical of this post. There are two possible situations:

1. He genuinely didn't know those "roles" were meaningless;
2. He did know those roles were meaningless and pretended he didn't.

In the second case, I'd definitely call scum upon this post. Whenever a human is guilty of something, it is their instinct to ask questions about things they already know to make it appear as if they don't have a clue about the situation. I'd call this a very strong scumtell, significantly beyond just "trying too hard to appear town."

However, we also have the first case to consider. Could it be true he was genuinely unaware about the function of those "roles"? Let us assume that this case is true, then there are some odd things about his post:

(Note: keep in mind that, according to his post in the sign-up thread, he has card-game mafia experience but no experience on this forum.)

• There is a "coincidence" that he voted FancyPants who is titled "goon" because he thinks FancyPants is scared of Gorny who is called "goon" as well;
• He didn't point out that FancyPants was marked as goon—is it because he didn't notice it at that time, or because of some other reason?
• Given that he has card-game mafia experience, he must know that having everyone's roles public is an absolute no-go. His reaction of "Why are ... is it a bug?" seems a bit passive for such a massive screw-up.
• Arbitrary titles under people's names are a common feature on many forums. If he has been on other (non-mafia) forums before, there are good chances he could guess what those titles represented.

Alright, none of the above is conclusive enough to show that he really knew that the titles were meaningless, but I wouldn't just blindly assume his "I really didn't know what those titles meant!" to be true.

Moreover, even if he really didn't know what the titles meant, that does not in any way prevent him from being scum and asking. Note that he asked "why our roles are under our names" and he didn't ask "what those titles meant". His way of asking suggests me that he was intentionally trying to slip a "hey I'm town" into his question.

Tl;dr:

I suspect adilm29h posted the above-quoted post with the intention to tell us "Hey I'm Town!" more than that he really wanted an answer to his question.

UNVOTE: FrozenMagpie
VOTE: adilm29h

You sure are jumping around a lot. Its beginning to feel like you're throwing accusations at everything you can find and seeing if they stick, using being helpful in your posts about facts of gameplay to make it seem like your spewing facts about the players and their alignment as well. Personally the only reason why the titles didn't bother me is because I saw that mine said ninja when I only had 1 post. This is a new forum to a majority of the people on this board, so it is not abnormal for us to be asking questions. Adilm didn't say "I vote FancyPants because it clearly says Goon under his name!" He did make a vote without a reason, which is sus on it's own, but instead you use his newbie question to form a case? Feels slimy to me.

@aster, regarding your 61.....


We are in a newbie game after all. While it is possible that your #2 scenario is possible and adlim does know what those "roles" are... since this is his first game on site, for the moment, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of a doubt and assume that your #1 scenario is more likely the case.

Will have to wait and see how things progress...

This however feels very natural (and it's not Captain O'Neill staring at me), all of his posts to far have fallen under the natural and comfortable category, no awkward/weak reasoning used to make a huge case, and easy defense of what he sees as innocent.

So far I have:

Solid town base - MotherGothel (me), Gorny
Town lean so far - FancyPants, FrozenMagpie

Need more - Adilm, Xa lighta, Draynth

Scummy - GreyICE, Aster

[MotherGothel28]

Except I had nothing to go off of with you GreyICE until you posted your reads list and one other game related posts. Please actually tell me why you seemed to have no idea who I was voting even though you were playing so much attention to my play.

And this is what I feared, the self proclaimed experienced player is now trying to use teaching newbies about the game to influence their decision making. You're using unrelated general facts to try to twist my words and that is absolutely a scum tactic.

I am now more comfortable with my vote than ever.

Also, "getting into the meat of the game" meant that people were finally posting game related thoughts, not just general fluff that I didn't have much to say about.

[MotherGothel28]

Now this is an interesting use of motivational thinking. What motive would scum-me have to overlook her opening post? Surely it changes very little about what I would need to right. On the other hand, let us consider her reaction. She said "Alright, now we are getting into the meat of the game!" And this confirms to me 100% that she's scum.

Consider what I said about motivations. Scum want to avoid the lynch. The game doesn't begin for them until someone threatens to lynch them (or their buddy). Everything up until that point is not the important to them. The game doesn't start until votes move to them. And this matches a very common scum pattern. Scum often react to early votes and cases as if they are personal attacks, and begin debating. It's called "Oh my god! You suck!" (OMGUS) after a scum poster who literally posted those five words followed by a vote for the person who had just voted them. While the term can be misused - a vote might prompt a re-evaluation of a poster, and two feuding posters might both decide to vote each other at similar times - in this case she's played it to the letter.

Also, thinking on this more, I disagree with your gameplay analysis here. It's stated in a way that makes it easy to accept, but I'm finding it hard to swallow. The game doesn't begin for mafia when someone votes them, in fact they thrive in a game where no heat is on them, so they can point fingers where they wish. The point of the game is for mafia to avoid attention whenever possible, not for them to react strongly to early votes, thus their gameplay would really start long before anyone placed a vote on them, setting the stage for their innocence. This is why I dislike people who come in as teachers, you say things like they are 100% fact and people could start to believe you.

[MotherGothel28]

First, a big thanks to MotherGothel28 for giving us some leads. I don't like the leads, but I at least appreciate you're attempting to give us some.

As for the leads you gave us, several of them are so obviously pointless that I don't even need to reply (bad humour correlates with being mafia? seriously?), but let me point out some of the biggest/most hilarious misses.

---

Even more so, it is suspicious when something as obvious as a vote is missed, as my vote is already on Aster. Would you have wanted me to re-vote for them? That doesn't make any sense, and is a very weak situation with a huge hole in it to base a vote on. That reads to me as someone who isn't paying attention to the game, which is unlikely for town trying to make a full reads list as you just managed to. Scum however are much more likely to skim the thread looking for anything they can make a false case against.

With this point, you're just twisting words. Your vote on me was made during the RVS stage; it seems very likely that one would perceive it as meaningless and forget about it; in fact, even I had already forgotten myself that you were voting me until you reminded me with this post.

More essentially, GreyICE's core point still stands: you did not make any attempt to use your newfound "scumtell" to try to lynch me. Nothing in your post gave any kind of feeling that you were now more convinced that I'm scum / that you were encouraging others to vote me / that your previous joke vote became serious. That is what GreyICE is accusing you of.

---

You sure are jumping around a lot. Its beginning to feel like you're throwing accusations at everything you can find and seeing if they stick,

Aside from the purported being true, did you actually manage to write this without even hearing the sheer irony?

(Hint: your comments about my bad sense of humour implying that I'm scum, do just about out-jump anything I've ever said in this thread.)

Adilm didn't say "I vote FancyPants because it clearly says Goon under his name!" He did make a vote without a reason, which is sus on it's own, but instead you use his newbie question to form a case? Feels slimy to me.

Please let me remind you that adilm29h himself already admitted that his vote was (in part) motivated by Gorny having the title "Goon".

(What did you mention again about those who "skim the thread"?)

I get the feeling you're over-defensive of adilm, who I still suspect of being scum. Let me say a bit more about why adilm is still suspicious:

• It's curious how he voted FancyPants "partially" because he was titled "Goon" (indicating that he saw those titles as reliable) while knowing Gorny was "Goon" as well, yet he completely ignored Gorny.
• His other reason for voting FancyPants was because FancyPants was trying to lynch the most-speaking players, amongst which Gorny, who he also knew to be a Goon.

The above gives the impression that his reason for voting FP along with what he claimed to have known when he did so, were all made up after the fact when he tried to patch together his past actions.

Adilm definitely is not off my radar yet. Call it "slimy" if you want. This isn't court where evidence being slimy means it has to be ignored.

---

Tl;dr:

MotherGothel28 is using bad arguments. I suspect a MotherGothel28 / adilm29h mafia combo.

So, you didn't actually ask me anything, you'll need to ask a question if you want me to respond to everything here.

The bit that I feel necessary to respond to is in regards to my vote on you and why I didn't press it. Well, it's fairly simple, I didn't want to push a Lynch on you. I point out things as I see them and let it form a picture as to what kind of role the person is playing in the game. So far you're high up on my list, but not the top. Also, I don't see it as townie to push for where others should vote, I point out what I find, and place my vote where I feel it should go, while continuing discussion with my fellow players.

I didn't put words in anyone's mouth regarding my vote, I just find it strange that someone who was paying so close to everything I said had no idea where my vote was placed, as that's generally a pretty important point of this game. Key example: GeryICE complaining about me not voting you while I was, in fact, voting you lol.

[MotherGothel28]

That was a really good explanation Aster, and imo a town point in your favor.

[MotherGothel28]

My scum reads so far are MotherGothel, for the main reason that she got really defensive when being voted by GreyIce. Also the whole thing where she says 'Now we are getting in the meat of the game', only when she was being accused, where as the game had already started of pretty intense for me at least since a lot of people had been accused which puts them in a pressure spot. Obviously MotherGothel feeling the pressure, mentioned that.
My other guess is Aster, but since there is only one vote allowed, I cast my vote onto MotherGothel28

I'm not sure how I'm being overly defensive by replying to posts directed at me. I've replied to everyone who has directed anything to me, not just to GreyICE who happened to place a vote (I honestly thought more people were voting me until we just got a vote count update).

Can you point out exactly where I overreacted, cause I honestly see myself as just responding to points and pointing out a huge flaw in logic against me.

[MotherGothel28]

Gorny that's interesting, is this for the whole "kill" phrasing? I've definitely seen a smaller scum slip as a giveaway. But I've also seen scum latch onto smaller things and lead a Lynch on a townie for it, so it doesn't put FancyPants in one pile or another.

[MotherGothel28]

..and MotherGothel, you'll notice that I labeled him as scummy for that, but I haven't voted for him. I'm giving him a chance for now. Same with you.

I'm fully aware of who is voting for me at this point

[MotherGothel28]

My scum reads so far are MotherGothel, for the main reason that she got really defensive when being voted by GreyIce. Also the whole thing where she says 'Now we are getting in the meat of the game', only when she was being accused, where as the game had already started of pretty intense for me at least since a lot of people had been accused which puts them in a pressure spot. Obviously MotherGothel feeling the pressure, mentioned that.
My other guess is Aster, but since there is only one vote allowed, I cast my vote onto Mother
2nd othel28

I'm not sure how I'm being overly defensive by replying to posts directed at me. I've replied to everyone who has directed anything to me, not just to GreyICE who happened to place a vote (I honestly thought more people were voting me until we just got a vote count update).

Can you point out exactly where I overreacted, cause I honestly see myself as just responding to points and pointing out a huge flaw in logic against me.

Yes even though you said "now we are getting in the meat of the game"
but i am not going to focus on that one small thing.
What i am more focussed on is
1st how defensive you got when someone voted you, and immediately found a reason to put them as scum. In my theory only a mafia would do that, where a town would be a little more accepting and figuring out whether "GREY ICE" was actually mafia. Very quick to change your vote once he voted you.
2nd I am going to use your own logic against you where 97
In post 97 you state how it is scummy to skim through the posts. Where as I disagree that it is scummy to skim through the post because it would take an extremely really long time to read everything and look into it. where people would pretty much skim through it multiple times.
Using this logic I feel you are mafia.
1. being going with your logic: why did you think that more people were voting you, where you just skimming and were not paying attention.
2. If your logic does not make sense, and skimming is not a mafia thing to do. You jut made up a reason for someone to be MAFIA, just because they voted you out and that they are an IC which means they have experience and is a Strong role (not regarding roles, but regarding them as a player it self). Power role meaning strong voice

Except I haven't made a case out of someone voting me or not voting me. GreyICE brought up where my vote was place and had no idea where it was. That is my point. Don't try to Lynch someone off of FALSE information. Conjecture is one thing, something that is clearly not factual is a complete other issue.

[MotherGothel28]

MotherGothel? Not replying to my comment.
Have you been stumped?

I actually just ran out of time while catching up lol, sorry, I'm on lunch now and finally finished. I hadn't gotten to your comment yet this morning.

[MotherGothel28]

My scum reads so far are MotherGothel, for the main reason that she got really defensive when being voted by GreyIce. Also the whole thing where she says 'Now we are getting in the meat of the game', only when she was being accused, where as the game had already started of pretty intense for me at least since a lot of people had been accused which puts them in a pressure spot. Obviously MotherGothel feeling the pressure, mentioned that.
My other guess is Aster, but since there is only one vote allowed, I cast my vote onto Mother
2nd othel28

I'm not sure how I'm being overly defensive by replying to posts directed at me. I've replied to everyone who has directed anything to me, not just to GreyICE who happened to place a vote (I honestly thought more people were voting me until we just got a vote count update).

Can you point out exactly where I overreacted, cause I honestly see myself as just responding to points and pointing out a huge flaw in logic against me.

Yes even though you said "now we are getting in the meat of the game"
but i am not going to focus on that one small thing.
What i am more focussed on is
1st how defensive you got when someone voted you, and immediately found a reason to put them as scum. In my theory only a mafia would do that, where a town would be a little more accepting and figuring out whether "GREY ICE" was actually mafia. Very quick to change your vote once he voted you.
2nd I am going to use your own logic against you where 97
In post 97 you state how it is scummy to skim through the posts. Where as I disagree that it is scummy to skim through the post because it would take an extremely really long time to read everything and look into it. where people would pretty much skim through it multiple times.
Using this logic I feel you are mafia.
1. being going with your logic: why did you think that more people were voting you, where you just skimming and were not paying attention.
2. If your logic does not make sense, and skimming is not a mafia thing to do. You jut made up a reason for someone to be MAFIA, just because they voted you out and that they are an IC which means they have experience and is a Strong role (not regarding roles, but regarding them as a player it self). Power role meaning strong voice

Except I haven't made a case out of someone voting me or not voting me. GreyICE brought up where my vote was place and had no idea where it was. That is my point. Don't try to Lynch someone off of FALSE information. Conjecture is one thing, something that is clearly not factual is a complete other issue.

Erm you mention and i quote "how can something as obvious as a vote be missed"
yet you don't know how many people voted for you?
and second thing what false information have i provided?
im lynching you on the same basis you are lynching grey ice

Misunderstanding there. GreyICE is trying to Lynch me off of FALSE information. You're trying to Lynch me for calling him out on false information.

Also, you're reacting very strongly to my explanations.

[MotherGothel28]

Misunderstanding there. GreyICE is trying to Lynch me off of FALSE information. You're trying to Lynch me for calling him out on false information.

Also, you're reacting very strongly to my explanations.

Now that's just a complete misrepresentation.

Spoiler: IC Stuff

What is a misrepresentation? It's when you alter someone's arguments in order to make them appear weaker than they are. It may be based on misunderstanding their arguments, it may be based on a defensive mindset where the player is simply fending off attacks without properly characterizing their opponent's arguments, but it is seen as scummy for a particular reason.

The reason it is seen as scummy is that Scum have no need to read other people's posts in order to know their alignment. Therefore it is more likely that a townie will read a player's post and attempt to determine what alignment their attacker is, while a scumbag will deflect.

It may simply all be a breakdown in communication though. Don't assume that someone is scum because they don't understand what you're saying. Maybe you just didn't get your point across to them. It's very easy to get caught in the trap of confirmation bias when you're already scumreading a player.

What I said was that you were posting irrelevant fluff posting and deliberately avoiding taking stances on the game. Stuff like these posts:

In my experience random voting doesn't last super long. This is my first game here, but I've played elsewhere, and people generally like to find stuff as soon as they can and get down to business (to defeat the Huns...)

Oh yeah, I also spent about 4 years playing in person in our church youth group every Friday night lol. It functioned basically the same, except there was less talk, and it was in a dark creepy church and we had to actually walk around and find dead bodies.

You can't be disappointed in McGuyver!

Yes! I loved when they actually threw McGuyver jokes into the shows script. I swear in one episode they threw in a few comments about needing duct tape and I couldn't stop laughing, my husband was so confused!!

These posts are not relevant to the game - in fact they could probably be posted in an "introduce yourself" thread quite easily. Now I am not saying "all business all the time", but I made the point that your only game relevant post was this one:

^^^ exactly this.

This is a newbie game with someone who said he had only played the card game, so I honestly dislike the amount of reading into that which Aster is doing. It's a pretty scummy thing to make something bad out of an innocent question.

This post is very weak and non-commital as your only game relevant post, and is in fact agreeing with what another townie is saying rather than providing any unique reads. I also did note that you did not follow it up with a vote - not realizing your RVS vote was Aster - but instead returned to fluff posting with no further commentary on anything Aster did.

Now that you understand what I am saying properly, would you care to respond?

My response is that I have followed up on Aster where I had something to say. I've already stated that I'm not just going to comment on everything that happens in the game.

[MotherGothel28]

I don't think it's weird to be worried that the IC is buddying the most active player (at the time).
I also don't think getting involved in every single discussion (especially when you disagree with the case) is productive, but I was happy to see where it went, at least it was activity and interaction (with regards to you and mothergorthel).

This feel like your issue with me stems from two things:
You're annoyed that I disagree with you.
I happen to be defending the person you're wagoning.

While not entirely unreasonable from your perspective, I think you really need to consider that you are wrong in both cases. MotherGothel could be scum but I'm not sold.
If you want a full breakdown about why I think the case is wrong I'd be happy to do so, I'm going out to dinner but will be back later.

Or you're scum ofc.

I'm used to being called scum on day1, it's something about how I play. I actually find it weird that everyone is at least slightly suspicious of me and yet you think I'm town. Maybe you're just the only one seeing what I say as I intend it, but I also have to consider that you could be scum who knows that I am town, thus trying to set up a claim that you're a good townie cause you never went after me.

[MotherGothel28]

Sorry, let me correct myself, you never actually committed to calling me town, you just "aren't sold" on me being scum. Fence sitting is something that mafia most frequently do.

[MotherGothel28]

IC Note: Of course you should be voting your strongest scumread. Your vote is mechanically how you lynch a player. If your vote is on a player other than your strongest scumread you are mechanically aiding the lynch of someone you feel is less likely to be scum. This is simply poor play. There are occasionally reasons to vote someone other than your strongest scumread - if they've claimed a power role, if they are VLA/being replaced and unable to respond - but none of them apply here.

Moving your vote is indeed the correct play.

I considered switching my vote to MotherGothel but decided not to because (1) it'd move pressure to MotherGothel who already had enough of it while removing it from adilm who didn't have enough of it, (2) a major part for my suspicion on MotherGothel was the adilm/MG conspiracy, which gives no cause to vote one over another, (3) it would become painfully easy to claim an Aster/GreyIce conspiracy.

This is interesting. Do you still believe MotherGothel to be scum?

Regarding where people should place their votes: nope. A vote is the only tool most townies have, so they should take the time we have to use that tool. Apply pressure wherever they see fit (make it convincing) and see how people react to it. That tool is clearly already in play in this game, but I'm not sure why you're ignoring it. It's a great way to get a better read on a player you are unsure about.

[MotherGothel28]

Also, man, y'all are viscous. Just because I hold a different opinion than you on a player doesn't make me or my arguments stupid.

[MotherGothel28]

I'm here, I'm here. Weekends are family time for me.

I'm liking the activity and posts from CD so far (welcome) it feels like good effort to solve.

I'm trying to change how I'm looking at the game so far, I think it would be in our best interest for each of us to think about who we feel is a solid town base since 75% of us are town. That way we make the sus pool smaller and have a greater chance of landing on scum.

So far I'm really thinking town for CD and Draynth, and I need to go back and reread for more.

My pool of suspicious still includes GreyICE, although he now has a couple of other contenders with him. Good points have been made about Adilm, and he has been continuing a trend of being pretty defensive. It doesn't feel relaxed like a townie should. And I still don't like Aster, dunno if he is just rubbing me wrong, but he does seem to twist what people say in almost every post and that can really change how people view other people's posts.

[MotherGothel28]

Also, before anyone says it, no I'm not trying to make anyone else make a list of who they think is solid town. Do what you want. I've just seen others do it in games and it seems to be a pretty successful tactic. That's why I'm here, to learn what I'm doing wrong when I play and to figure out a better way to play.

[MotherGothel28]

Lol, I did specify that I wasn't trying to get others to do it, I'm just working on changing my gameplay to lean more that way. By all means feel free to ignore me and play how you want to play. It's just not a bad idea to (even silently) have a town base to limit down who might be scum.

[MotherGothel28]

I just re-read through the entire thread and I don't currently stand anywhere else than I currently did. I do tend to have issues reading back (mostly due to overthinking) and am far superior at reading things that are currently going on which I'm finding difficult since I feel like no one has really posted much since I've joined and some people have just been AWOL.

I really do think people should look more into my post about Gorny. He had 2 conflicting reads about 2 different people within the same post, I don't see how someone sided with the town could pull that off. It's not something you just forget.

To me it looks like someone who's mafia that wrote random reads to try and stand-in with the crowd.

I definitely took notice of your points about Gorny, and I think they are good. Over all I felt like he started off feeling pretty town, but the recent interactions have me feeling less so.

[MotherGothel28]

Gorny, I always assumed a reads list was built as "this is how I feel about a person, and here is why (insert quotes or list or whatever explanation you choose to use)." And then at the end you recap with a list of players and what you're reading. That's why it doesn't make sense. Basically you said on two players "this is how I feel" and then at the end you had seemingly talked yourself into feeling another way.

Since scum always know who town is, inconsistency in 1 post regarding reads can be a pretty decent scum tell. That's why I'm glad CD pointed it out. I don't hate the idea of a vote on you this phase, slips like that are how scum get caught.



GreyICE I'm sorry y'all are sick, rl always comes first, so rest up and get better (then come back even better than you were before... That's how sickness works right??)

[MotherGothel28]

I'm hesitant to clear anyone based on a hammer vote. When your teammate is going down, it's actually quite common to place your vote there once it seems inevitable.

[MotherGothel28]

@MotherGothel28

:

Solid town base - MotherGothel (me), Gorny

What I find odd here is, while yes this statement was early in the game, most of Gorny's posts prior to this were just meaningless back-and-forth filler with you.

However, you pointed it out again further into the game here:

I just re-read through the entire thread and I don't currently stand anywhere else than I currently did. I do tend to have issues reading back (mostly due to overthinking) and am far superior at reading things that are currently going on which I'm finding difficult since I feel like no one has really posted much since I've joined and some people have just been AWOL.

I really do think people should look more into my post about Gorny. He had 2 conflicting reads about 2 different people within the same post, I don't see how someone sided with the town could pull that off. It's not something you just forget.

To me it looks like someone who's mafia that wrote random reads to try and stand-in with the crowd.

I definitely took notice of your points about Gorny, and I think they are good. Over all I felt like he started off feeling pretty town, but the recent interactions have me feeling less so.

Can you explain to me why Gorny was in your top town-reads?

As you said, it was pretty early in the game, so I didn't have a lot to go on for anyone yet, in my opinion the game did really get going until just before GreyICE showed up.

With the amount of info I had, I felt like Gorny (awkward what my phone wants to autocorrect that's to...) was starting off good. He was giving opinions on pretty much anything, didn't hesitate to give a read, and seemed pretty relaxed over all. Those are things that I find pretty town, especially when scum can slide by in that early phase with just fluff along with everyone else.

Honestly, I made the mistake of feeling too comfortable with my early read and didn't look more closely until people (especially you) started to point out his slips in alignment reads.

I'm very impressed with that btw, and your logical, not fanatic, case on Gorny has earned a lot of trust from me, especially since I don't see scum starting a train like that on a teammate when there was little to no heat prior to it.

[MotherGothel28]

Btw I'm a couple of pages behind and replying as I go...

Hey, so I'm feeling much better. Not stronger than before, unless my white blood cells have been lifting while my back was turned, but y'know. Apologies, it was a bad example, but real life intruded hard.

One thing I think is important about the hammer is this:

Sorry Guys I was out the whole day. I would like to say that I I too have been convinced after Gorny Has been brought into the light, Or shall I say dark.
But anyways, He seems very wishy washy with his reads, where he says one thing and then says the opposite for the same person, which shows that he doesn’t really have any reads on the players, and is just making up some BS as he goes and getting mixed up in his own mind.
UNVOTE: GreyIce
VOTE: Gorny

FancyPants please give your views on the recent Gorny?

You have been 're-reading' since yesterday.
My top two suspects at the moment are Gorny, And GreyIce

This is not the post of a man who is aware he hammered.

Spoiler: IC Note

Hammering without a claim did work here. That doesn't mean it's a good move. In general claims might result in scum living an extra day - but it may also result in a town power role not dying. Overall they are positive utility, although it's not always right to avoid hammering just because they claim a power role.

Anyway, my top suspects are still MotherGothel (yes, the end of yesterday did nothing to convince me this isn't a good wagon) and Adamdlh. Aster is obvious town, Fancypants is obvious town, Xa ligha is obvious town. Draynth is still the dark horse candidate, but I'd overall guess town.

Anyway, despite me generally not loving his posting and reasoning, Adamdlh is making strides to progress the game and scumhunt. That's generally townie behavior. What Gorny had to say:

adlim29h:

Not sure if he's honestly new or faking it, but since this is
his first game here, I have to give him the benefit of a doubt.
If he's scum.....well played...well played.

I am used to newbie scum viewing their partners as inherently more scummy and townies as inherently more townie, so... this makes me feel slightly better about Adam.

MotherGothel28:

Seems kind of new town.
At the moment she's only responding to questions and slightly
following discussion, agreeing with some points. She's not (yet)
offering up any thoughts of her own on an independent basis.

This is just long way of saying what I was saying with no particular thought added. A fence sit of the highest order. The other odd thing was that he went from null-possible town to null-possible scum on one player -

Frozen Magpie

. And here he defended himself from doing it on...

MotherGothel

.

MotherGothel had this to say:

Gorny, I always assumed a reads list was built as "this is how I feel about a person, and here is why (insert quotes or list or whatever explanation you choose to use)." And then at the end you recap with a list of players and what you're reading. That's why it doesn't make sense. Basically you said on two players "this is how I feel" and then at the end you had seemingly talked yourself into feeling another way.

Since scum always know who town is, inconsistency in 1 post regarding reads can be a pretty decent scum tell. That's why I'm glad CD pointed it out. I don't hate the idea of a vote on you this phase, slips like that are how scum get caught.

This is a weird thing to say without following up on a vote.

I'm going to mull over what I think on Draynath now.

I didn't follow up with a vote because we had time and I was interested to see other opinions on the points being made, even just as info to come back on later. I didn't think he would get hammered so soon.

[MotherGothel28]

On the cd/greyICE interaction. I think they both got into the stance of defending themselves and took it too far.

Cd, I absolutely understand your questions, asking for an explanation is normal. However, I think you just let yourself get a bit too caught up in the heat of the moment. Your intention was town, but the heat of your reaction was too much.

GreyICE... I need to go back and iso. Reading carefully from the view of someone who wasn't involved in the discussion, I agree with cd in that I don't understand why you fought so hard against giving a bit more depth into those "obvious" Town reads. I do see how you got more and more frustrated, and I'm almost wondering if that was also the issue between you and I earlier on. I think you definitely deserve an iso and a cool look back on your interactions over all.

Not sure yet if I agree with cd that it's a scum tell that GreyICE reacted so strongly, because I have seen townies get pretty defensive about their play as well. I think context matters and a cool head looking it back over helps to tell the difference between a normal townie just being defensive, or a scum tell.

[MotherGothel28]

Tl;Dr - I think both parties were at fault there, and seeing GreyICE reacting like that with someone else actually has me questioning my interaction earlier. Gonna go back.

[MotherGothel28]

So IC post, yay! I'm your "Inexperienced Challenged" which is a cutsey way of saying I've been playing for a while. Join date isn't particularly indicative of skill, but it is indicative of experience! ....

....

Gameplay tactics:

Town

have the following goals:
- Find scum
- Work with other town players to get scum lynched
- Avoid being lynched

This is the general order of priority. Finding scum is your highest priority. If you can't find scum, you can't win. Goal number two is working with other players to get scum lynched. No one player can EVER lynch scum on their own, it always requires at least two. Other people have to listen to you! So you need to get other people on your side....




....

Lynch All Liars

- a common strategy here. Lying is anti-town, and there are vanishingly few town motives to lie. On the other hand scum lie every time they post. In general, every player caught in a direct lie should be lynched outright, even if the lie seems minor. Town players, please don't lie.

....

I spaced this out a bit and removed gameplay info/tips that weren't relevant to read for my thoughts here.

First Section: Gameplay Tactics for Town

You have a three point system for how town should play GreyICE, and find scum is the simplest of the three. It's not easy, but the intent of it is simple enough.
Work with other town players to get scum lynched... Have you done that at all? I haven't seen it.
Avoid being lynched... you're not doing a great job of that so far. The cussing and getting angry and somewhat inflammatory is drawing a lot of heat to you.

Second Section: Lynch All Liars
This is sound advise, and I think this assumed rule is why Adilm is gaining so much heat right now. The only thing saving him at this moment is whether people believe he is lying or just

that much of a newbie.

I don't think it's weird to be worried that the IC is buddying the most active player (at the time).
I also don't think getting involved in every single discussion (especially when you disagree with the case) is productive, but I was happy to see where it went, at least it was activity and interaction (with regards to you and mothergorthel).

This feel like your issue with me stems from two things:
You're annoyed that I disagree with you.
I happen to be defending the person you're wagoning.

While not entirely unreasonable from your perspective, I think you really need to consider that you are wrong in both cases. MotherGothel could be scum but I'm not sold.
If you want a full breakdown about why I think the case is wrong I'd be happy to do so, I'm going out to dinner but will be back later.

Or you're scum ofc.

As a personal preference, and because you're not a newbie I'm not going to lay it out all formal-like. Don't fucking make shit up about why I'm doing something unless you want me to come rip your throat out and decorate the walls with your blood.

Okay, now to the reason why I went back to ISO you, our earlier interactions. I went back and looked, and you seemed to be able to keep a calm and "professional" reaction to accusations (mainly from myself) on Day1, until this post above, which was about the 12th response you made after you made your list of reads. It's a huge swing into hyper-aggressive, and then you swing back into somewhat calm. You don't seem to get aggressive like that again until the interaction with CD.
Right now from the tone of it, it's just... too sloppy for me to think that a somewhat experienced player would do that as scum. In my experience (although it is from another site) scum are just much more careful with their words than your keyed-up posts would say you have been. At this point I think it's just extremely sloppy town play, which may also explain why you sused me without paying attention to where my vote stood.

[MotherGothel28]

Fine, I'll humor as much to say I think the draynth kill was good for town in that he wasn't the most vocal town. It also makes me suspect a newer player because he was an SE, but I'm not giving that a lot of weight.

Pretty much my thoughts.

I generally find scum will defend their validity of their kills even when, people say it's bad.

Which is why adlim's response about why the NK was a good one was weird.

Perhaps just getting rid of adlim is the move here. Mothergothel thoughts?

I agree with this, scum will find themselves talking and over explaining things so there is no misunderstanding in their posts, because misunderstanding can lead to a lynch. On the flip side town just post their thoughts, because they are being genuine.


Thoughts on Adilm:

Please correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that no one has pointed this out yet - but what if adlim is both making newbie mistakes

and

scum? Honestly, he seems to have explanations that are... ok... but not great. He never says a reason for one of the weird mistakes he has made and everyone says "oh, ok, that makes sense, thanks for explaining!" I know this is a game where we are all inherently suspicious of each other, but I just find that interesting, no one has been really sold on his explanations. I am really thinking he is likely scum who is trying to find and answer to every question directed at him, a reason that will make a lie seem like it wasn't a lie. There is a small chance he is telling the truth and just a newbie town playing badly, but I personally think that chance is slim.

I'm 100% comfortable with an Adlim lynch today for that reason and because, let's face it, we won't know for sure if he is town or not until he flips or the game ends. I think this lynch would get us a win, but in the off chance it's not, at least we will have good information from it, as everyone has pretty much weighed in on him at this point.

[MotherGothel28]

Don't Lynch Me for I am a cop...
and that is why I am really pushing GreyIce...

Lynch adilm, I'm tracker.

VOTE: Adilm

I checked Draynth last night.

With both of those being said, I absolutely believe CD over the person who I believe is lying and badly trying to cover it. I'm gonna hammer this, role or no role on my part.

However, if this happens to be wrong, we know that CD is the scum, because only one cop or tracker can exist in the game.

GG all

VOTE: Adilm

[MotherGothel28]

Alright, since I'm here to learn to better my game, what can I change? Day1 I had several people finding me scummy. Was it just my aggression against GreyICE? It was a bit over done, I let myself get too caught up in the moment.

As far as Adilm, I think you did great at making us doubt ourselves when. You slipped up. Being the hammer is tricky, even for town, which is why as Draynth said it's best to take that slow and give ample room for a claim before it happens.

Gorny had me sold on him being town. I was pretty freaking sure about it, so I would say he played a great game aside from not being able to keep a consistent read.

GreyICE I think played great aside from getting into confrontations with some of us.

Fancy pants became a pretty clear town asset in day2, keeping things rolling and asking good questions.

Cd, you're my MVP lol, idk that any of us noticed the inconsistency in Gornys reads before you did and without that I think he played a clean game. I attribute this clean win to you.

[MotherGothel28]

Lol, I'm not THAT easily sold!