Newbie 1845 - A New Dawn Game Over

[Inferno390]

And so it begins.
VOTE: Inferno390
Because inside jokes.

[Inferno390]

Hello everyone!

What's your favorite color?

VOTE: RedFlavor

Am I doing this right?

Ayo

VOTE: RedFlavor

Hey guys

What’s shaking?

VOTE: red

Red is my color in this game and it is my favourite flavor, not color

this is a scumclaim
sheep me

i want to see 9 votes on red now

gosh I need to vote myself for that

VOTE: redflavor

DUDE
THIS IS L1
WHAT THE HECK
WE AREN'T EVEN OUT OF RVS YET

[Inferno390]

So based on the last 15+ posts alone, here are my thoughts.
A) Sunlit. Why? (That was rhetorical, don't answer that)
B) Saul, my favorite color is Yellow.
C)

@Sheep was your vote in post 11 a RVS vote?

Yes it was an RVS vote. This is RVs. Why would you even ask that question?
D) Holy cow, the first L1 happened

SANIC FAST

.
E)

Red is my color in this game and it is my favourite flavor, not color

this is a scumclaim
sheep me

i want to see 9 votes on red now

How is this a scumclaim?
F) The timing of this seems a little fishy. (Perhaps that's just me.) And Red wasn't that oblivious to his L2, was he? Could Red and Sheep be scumpartners doing a little RVS back and forth? Seems unlikely, considering this IS a Newbie game, but you never know...
G)Why would you RESTATE your vote, Sheep?

My conclusions are as follows:

readlist:

Spoiler: Inferno390's readlist

Neutral

: Sunlit, Sunset, Creature, Lil, Saul

Slight scumlean

: Aviqf (because of the weird question), Sheep, Red (because of the timing of that L1. I really don't like how fast that happened.)

As for voting:
VOTE: Sheep, becasue voting Red would hammer and be very scummy with us basically still in RVS.

[Inferno390]

I guess I'll vote sheep. It seems kind of weird to want so many votes on red.

Vote: Sheep

You "guess" you vote sheep? Like you're unsure on wheter not you should vote at all?
I really don't like this tone here.

[Inferno390]

So, Red, what do you think of Sheep's posts so far?

[Inferno390]

Wall Post incoming!

Spoiler: Wall post!

Why are you scumreading someone who got speedwagoned in RVS, inferno?

Although scumclaim + self vote = eeeeeeeeh

Okay, so I feel like the timing of sheep saying that Red was a "scumclaim" and then Red voting himself seems really weird.

F) The timing of this seems a little fishy. (Perhaps that's just me.) And Red wasn't that oblivious to his L2, was he? Could Red and Sheep be scumpartners doing a little RVS back and forth? Seems unlikely, considering this IS a Newbie game, but you never know...

what does a newbie game have to do with scumpartner voting patterns? i dont see how voting back and forth in rvs is necessarily indicative of alignment either

I think that considering this is a newbie game, newbie scum are less likely to do this sort of banter.

@inferno

how much of 23 do you think was forced?

Why the heck would you ask me this of my own post? Of course I don't think it's forced at all, it's my post!

Inferno was so transparently, unfakeably, town in art deco it was painful. His 23 does not seem out of line with my experience there, but I'm curious to see him in a 1v1 here for that reason.

The 1v1 will come. And it will be very obnoxious, and it will involve a lot of wall posts, and just annoy everyone in general. Just like last time.

@inferno

how much of 23 do you think was forced?

I don't think this is what you wanted to say. You are asking inferno if he thinks his own post was forced?

yes that's what i want from him

Again, why?

Everything in that list is relative, so I'm not like reading SD as strong town, just a slight to medium town read.

SD's questions look genuine. Asking Saul why he wasn't posting, then backing down was a minor gesture, but I read it as town.

Saul's caution looks town.

Creature isn't as much scum as anti-town. He literally said he wasn't going to help until LUV posted.

Red is just playing recklessly, which is an easy thing to do. However, it can be risky. I think a townie is more inclined to take that risk. He also was very pro-town, his scumclaim which lead to the wagon got us out of RVS.

why do newbies force everything
wagon this pls

I don't understand this at all. Why is this forced? And why would you call for wagon?

You appear to be very intent on discrediting everything Avi has to say and I'm not quite sure why.

This post looks like shading sheep imo

But what Sunlit says is true. Sheep is saying that all the newbies are forcing their reads. I'm liking Sheep less and less here...

[Inferno390]

Also, Sunset seems to be lurking quite a bit proportionally and not very sure of herself. Just not very good or newbscum?

[Inferno390]

@inferno

how much of 23 do you think was forced?

Why the heck would you ask me this of my own post? Of course I don't think it's forced at all, it's my post!

it is forced. town force post sometimes, this is the response i was expecting scum to make

Wow.
This is probably the strangest start to a 1v1 I'll ever have.
There is so much wrong with this chain of thought I don't know where to begin.
I write the first scumhunting post of the game. Sheep says it's forced. Then sheep asks ME, the writer of the post, if I think MY OWN post is forced. I tell him that I obviously think the post is not forced, because it's MY post. Then Sheep blatantly tells me my opinion is wrong as implies that I'm scum.
The cherry on top? Sheep has been degrearding any attempt as scumhunting in the the game so far, but I haven't seen really any attempts to scumhunt on his own part.

[Inferno390]

i am your temporary substitute ic INACTIVITY =/= LURKING BTW
not that sunset's inactive
not that lurking is a newbtell either

where do you get the "not very sure of herself" from?

I guess I'll vote sheep. It seems kind of weird to want so many votes on red.

Vote: Sheep

I dont think sheep was serious about vote

I said "I am red in this game" and red means scum so that was the scumclaim


Preedit: yes I also found that weird

VOTE: sunset at dawn

Oh. I thought that sheep meant RedFlavor not the scum

Unvote- sheep

I don't know who else seems off yet.

This is where I get it from. These are Sunset's only two posts, and she doesn't put weight behind here posts at all, like she's not really sure what to do.

[Inferno390]

LUV: inferno and I played in a game with three lurkers who were all town, and two of them were PRs. He's also shown a marked preference for leaning hard on the wiki. Therefore, in my opinion he should know better than to question activity as a measure of towniness or lack thereof.

Point being: if he knows better, why is he making that comment? And I'd like a response from him.

I'm actually not leaning on the wiki this game (I learned my lesson last time). My thinking is that Sunset has contributed very little to this game and both her posts seem very unsure. My question is if this is a sign that Sunset is one of the scum and is not sure how to fake scumhunt here. It would explain what seems to me as being a very uncomfortable player with only two posts.

[Inferno390]

town forces reads to get discussion going and to leave rvs
anywho inferno is omgusing and overreacting hard
VOTE: inferno

avi's questions were forced, the answer was pretty obvious
his reasons feel incredibly forced because most of the reasons for townreads/scumreads arent actual reasons to townread/scumread
saul was barely actually cautious, red was barely actually reckless, he's reaching hard for reasons

How the heck am I OMGUSing you? Heck, I voted for you on the first page before you really said ANYTHING about me. and all I've done is point out the fact that you're negative about all the scumreads and that there is no reason you should read my responses to you as scum.

@inferno

which of sunlit's posts seem unsure
they seem natural to me

SunSET, not SunLIT. I can see this being a major point of confusion in the the upcoming days. (Unless Sheep is just trying to confuse us.)

[Inferno390]

92 is like a really reachy read
posting like 10 times in a day isnt lurking

How is it reachy? Sunset has posted twice and contributed nothing.

[Inferno390]

sunlit had posted twelve times at the time of that first "lurking" post
lurking is scummy when a player is purposely avoiding the thread, do you think sunlit has been doing that?

NOT SUNILT. SUNSET. As in SUNSET AT DAWN.

[Inferno390]

holy shit im stupid lol

Okay, so is 92 less reachy now?

[Inferno390]

Saul how am I being defensive/uncertain?

Read your posts.

I don't like the tone of this. A) Aviqf might not be able to understand how you see his posts as defensive/uncertain, and B) this is directly avoiding the question.

[Inferno390]

Saul how am I being defensive/uncertain?

Read your posts.

I don't like the tone of this. A) Aviqf might not be able to understand how you see his posts as defensive/uncertain, and B) this is directly avoiding the question.

A) that isnt ai
B) no

try again

Yeah at this point I'm just

scumleaning on Avi. Behavior seems defensive and uncertain

, might be because it's a newbie game but that still doesn't dismiss it as townie.

UNVOTE: RedFlavor
VOTE: Aviqf

I'm getting slight town vibes from Inferno and Sunlit, and slight scum vibes from RedFlavor and Sheep. Everyone else I'm kinda neutral on.

A) It is Avi
B)

Saul how am I being defensive/uncertain?

Read your posts.

If you have a problem with the way someone is talking, then explain what the problem is and why. Don't redirect the work back on them.

[Inferno390]

Telling someone to read their own posts when they ask you to explain themselves is avoiding the question given to them.

[Inferno390]

I don't think avi is scum either though. I'd like to hear more from Sunset, and something from LUV that isn't IC-flavored.

Sunset has been really quiet, hasn't she?
I want your opinion, Dia.

Saul how am I being defensive/uncertain?

Read your posts.

Is this response avoiding Avi's question?

I'm also going to start doing some ISO's, so watch for those.

[Inferno390]

Gonna start ISOing people. I'll probably go alphabetically. MY thoughts will be in

this color here, because I like it.

Spoiler: Aviqf ISO

Ayo

VOTE: RedFlavor

This was obviously an RVS vote.

@Sheep was your vote in post 11 a RVS vote?

I don't understand this question. This is obviously an RVS vote, because we're still in RVS.

DO NOT VOTE RED, HE IS ONE AWAY FROM BEING LYNCHED

This seems a little funny. Why get all upset about the L1 but not take off the vote?

@Sheep was your vote in post 11 a RVS vote?

UNVOTE: in case
inferno reaction seems natural

pedit does it look like an rvs vote

Can you please just be straight with me.. it’s a yes or no question, and you’re not helping town. So..
1. Was that a RVS vote?
2. Were you serious about the scumclaim?

I really don't understand pushing this question. It's obvious that it's an RVS vote.

You guys can call me Avi btw for short

@Sheep please answer the two questions in post 24

Very little page 1, but someone with that uncooperative mindset throughout the game is very damaging.

I agree with this.

im psure it's not ai
he was telling ppl not to hammer, not telling ppl to get him away from l-1

@avi

why didnt you unvote if you were afraid of a hammer

Because I wanted to keep him at l-1 for pressure, but he looks like a wild cannon to me so I’m going to unvote...
UNVOTE:

"Wild cannon"? Where is this coming from?

Although inferno's posts are awkward, I don't think this shows scum. I look at his past games, and his wording is just as awkward.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73591

Ouch. But reasonable.

he looks like a wild cannon to me

is this really a reason to unvote

Yes. I only voted him for pressure. Red obviously didn't care that he was L-1, so I wasn't going to gather anything from his reaction.

This also seems reasonable.

how are his posts awkward here
im not seeing it

I thought you said #23 was forced? I just think his tone/wording is a bit off.

Good response here.

It's more of a gut feeling.. but I think I should ignore it because of his meta.

VOTE: sunset at dawn

Last line of post #36 looks forced to me. It's like she knows who is town/scum, but she doesn't want to make any moves.

@sheep, how did you hyperlink that #23?

Seems reasonable.

thank you sheep!

my reads so far:

[Sunlit diamond]
[sheepsaysmeep, sauljoker, redflavor]
[inferno390, Lil Uzi Vert]
[sunset at dawn, creature]

@sheep I know it's reaching a bit, but I think scum are more likely to claim that they don't have any reads because they're scared of making mistakes.

Avi really needs to explain his thoughts. I like the response to Sheep though. It makes sense in a newbie game.

Everything in that list is relative, so I'm not like reading SD as strong town, just a slight to medium town read.

SD's questions look genuine. Asking Saul why he wasn't posting, then backing down was a minor gesture, but I read it as town.

Saul's caution looks town.

Creature isn't as much scum as anti-town. He literally said he wasn't going to help until LUV posted.

Red is just playing recklessly, which is an easy thing to do. However, it can be risky. I think a townie is more inclined to take that risk. He also was very pro-town, his scumclaim which lead to the wagon got us out of RVS.

This seems pretty well done. I see the thought process here.

@inferno

how much of 23 do you think was forced?

I don't think this is what you wanted to say. You are asking inferno if he thinks his own post was forced?

VOTE: Creature

LUV I’ll ask answer you question once I get back to a PC but I wanted to lose this question to sheep real quick

@Sheep, if you want to wagon me because my posts are “forced”, then you tell Inferno that town force posts too. How do you tell if it’s town or scum?

THIS is an excellent question.

You can’t call reads reaching early D1

why do you think you cant?

Because there isn’t as much content so you have to base reads on what you have

These two posts are reasonable.

Saul how am I being defensive/uncertain?

I said I’d answer the question when I’d get to a PC..

Ok so my experience:

I have played around 10 games on my homesite. They were all big role madness games. In the first few games, there was a good amount of game analysis taking place. But recently, it has been full shitposting. I missed playing seriously, so i came here. I have also played Town of Salem a little bit, but I know ToS and this are really different.

@Sheep I don't really care if you think my reasoning is NAI, but I'm going to stick to my knowledge.

This seems defensive.

it is definitely not avoiding avi's question

Avoiding and not answering have the same effect: the question doesn't get answered. Do we have to get into the technicalities?

And Avi hits the point right on the nose.

It's not an acceptable answer though.

Oh i forgot to answer this one:

I'm townreading Diamond because i feel all his posts have purpose, and he isnt just posting to post.

This is a good read.

All in all, I'm

Leaning Town

for Avi. Not everything Avi has done has made sense, but he definitely has done some genuine scumhunting this game.

[Inferno390]

he did not directly avoid the question
he did not directly answer it

entirely technically correct

You know what, stop fussing over the "technicalities". That's incredibly scummy behavior.
Saul's response to Avi's question is not acceptable, be cause he's never actually stated why he thinks Avi is defensive or unsure. Avi's question is perfectly legit, and Saul's response is not.

Just because of this chain, I'm seriously starting to lean on a Sheep/Saul scumteam. Sheep has been nothing but negative on all my and Avi's reads and thoughts this game, Saul has contributed little to none in terms of real scumhunting (only 5 posts, an RVS vote, and a wild attack on Avi), and this looks like an attempt from Sheep to cover up a dumb response on Saul's part.

[Inferno390]

Another thing I'm noticing is that most of Sheep's posts are a combination of shitposting or attacks on the things Avi or I say. There's maybe a slight bit of scumhunting, but it's very broken up, and not really useful to the town.
More on this when I ISO him.

[Inferno390]

Repeat after me: Activity level is NAI. I want more from Sunset so I have a shadow's chance of judging her alignment.

I agree with this. I would also like Sunset to post more. But I never said that her activity level was evidence of scum. I just restated the fact the she was incredibly quiet.
It's the fact that she has posted very little PLUS her posts seem very unsure that made me lean scum on her.

[Inferno390]

I didn't want to seem overconfident and make a mistake.

What do you mean by 'make a mistake'? Town generally should not need to worry about making mistakes.

What I mean is that I don't want to do something stupid like getting a power role lynched day one. That counts as a mistake.

this seems like a power role claim.

[Inferno390]

VOTE: inferno

What's with this? Why are you voting me? Without any explanation too, which is weird considering this:

can everyone explain reads as they post them thx

[Inferno390]

Just because of this chain, I'm seriously starting to lean on a Sheep/Saul scumteam. Sheep has been nothing but negative on all my and Avi's reads and thoughts this game, Saul has contributed little to none in terms of real scumhunting (only 5 posts, an RVS vote, and a wild attack on Avi), and this looks like an attempt from Sheep to cover up a dumb response on Saul's part.

this was why i voted
like the ic's do this in newbies so ima try

class, can someone tell me why this post is scummy?

First off, stop acting like an IC, because you're not, and you do not know everything about how to play this game. There are other people in this game who are IC's and there is a reason that they are IC's, and there is a reason that you're not an IC.
Second, so what you've basically said is that your vote is an OMGUS vote, because the only reason you're voting for me is because you don't like this post.
Third, how about you actually explain why you think this post is scummy instead of asking everyone else, because right now it looks like you're just shading this post as scummy to draw some heat off of my attack on you.

You know what, stop fussing over the "technicalities". That's incredibly scummy behavior.

why is this scummy

Becasue you're avoinding the whole point of this argument, which has been said again and again. Saul's response is NOT an acceptable awnser, becasue it is NOT accpetable to make someone else do the work to prove your claims, escpecailly when that "someone else" is the person you're accusing. Quibbling over the technicalities of whether or not Saul actually "directly avoided the question" or not, especially after 3 people have said that Saul should NOT have done that and his response is incredibly detrimental to the town, is both ridiculous and scummy, because what it does is draw attention from the fact that Saul's post is very anti-town by bogging us down in the details so much that we actually forget the main point.

[Inferno390]

aggressiveness isnt actually scummy btw

or at least usually not

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Aggressiveness? who said anything about aggressiveness? And this gives literally no information to the town. These two posts combined are basically "Aggressiveness isn't scummy except for when it is."

[Inferno390]

Hey Creature, would you please explain some of your reads further? I'd like to know more about your vote on Saul, why you townread Sheep, Avi, and me, and why you aren't townreading Red anymore.

[Inferno390]

RedFlavor I already said I changed my mind about his selfvote.

Right, but what changed your mind? Was it something about the selfvote, or a post that came after the selfvote, or what?

sheep seems very active.

I townread you because you actually got serious when Red went L-1.

I townread Avi mainly because his contributions on page 3 feel genuine.

My only thoughts on this is that activity =/= town. Scum can be incredibly active and not contribute anything to town at all, and I agree that Avi looks genuine on page 3.

Meanwhile I thought Saul would be a good vote.

Okay, just as a pointer form one newbie to another, one of the things I was told once in a newbie setup was that every vote you should make should have a purpose. Is it t oadd pressure? Gather information? Look for a response from the given player? Make sure that every vote you make ahs some sort of reasoning behind it other than "oh, this looks like a safe place to vote," becasue that deoesn't help you at all.

No wait. You're an SE. Surely you know all these things...?

Creature = scum?

[Inferno390]

Updated readlist:

Spoiler: Inferno390's readlist

Townlean:

Sunlit

Slight Townlean:

Aviqf

Neutral:

Red, Lil

Slight scumlean:

Creature, Sunset, Saul

Scumlean:

Sheep

Most likely scum:

Ask and I'll go into further detail on these reads.

[Inferno390]

Okay, just as a pointer form one newbie to another, one of the things I was told once in a newbie setup was that every vote you should make should have a purpose. Is it t oadd pressure? Gather information? Look for a response from the given player? Make sure that every vote you make ahs some sort of reasoning behind it other than "oh, this looks like a safe place to vote," becasue that deoesn't help you at all.

I'm rn voting to see if I can sort Saul. Plus I have a slight scumlean on him.

Right, but what changed your mind? Was it something about the selfvote, or a post that came after the selfvote, or what?

Story:

Me (days before): *sees RedFlavor's selfvote*
Me: Oh, town I guess.
Me (now): *sees RedFlavor's selfvote again*
Me: Actually, maybe scum could've also done that.

It wasn't a post after that that made me change my mind. Views over the same thing can change.

Okay, these make sense.

[Inferno390]

Holy crud, this has not been a good week for me, awful head cold, throat all swollen up, internet acting up...
I meant to post this yesterday, but life. I'll do this post and then give my thoughts on the last 2 pages.

First off, stop acting like an IC, because you're not, and you do not know everything about how to play this game. There are other people in this game who are IC's and there is a reason that they are IC's, and there is a reason that you're not an IC.

im not an ic because i didnt join the queue as an ic
can we not fill the thread with this bullshit

Just because of this chain, I'm seriously starting to lean on a Sheep/Saul scumteam. Sheep has been nothing but negative on all my and Avi's reads and thoughts this game, Saul has contributed little to none in terms of real scumhunting (only 5 posts, an RVS vote, and a wild attack on Avi), and this looks like an attempt from Sheep to cover up a dumb response on Saul's part.

this was why i voted

like the ic's do this in newbies so ima try

class, can someone tell me why this post is scummy?

Yeah I hated that post and it’s only thing giving me pause on Inferno.

What do you not like about 194?

Updated readlist:

Spoiler: Inferno390's readlist

Townlean:

Sunlit

Slight Townlean:

Aviqf

Neutral:

Red, Lil

Slight scumlean:

Creature, Sunset, Saul

Scumlean:

Sheep

Most likely scum:

Ask and I'll go into further detail on these reads.

Why am I at neutral? What do you think about me voting and put myself at l - 1

Also why did you put sunset and saul on slight scumlean? I thought in 194 you saw a power claim, do you want to lynch power roles?

You're at neutral because what you have posted doesn't strike me as either town or scum. You've also only posted 18 times, so I don't really have a read on you yet.
Sunset I'm still slightly scumleaning because she only has 1 readpost, 6 posts, and what she has posted seems weak. While 194 could be a powerclaim, it could also be her saying that she doesn't want to lynch a power role, or it could be a scum gambit. In any case, the excuse for lurking is pretty weak.
Saul's posts seem incredibly defensive for town. He's constantly either avoiding a direct confrontation or getting very passive/aggressive whenever he's asked a question or any reading is done in his direction. Plus he has contributed basically nothing to this game. In fact, considering his posts over the last few pages (which I'll get to eventually), he looks even scummier than before.

I'm leaning heavily on a saul/sheep scumteam right now based on the information above.

[Inferno390]

i dont see you saying you think im scum until the last line in that post?

I have said that I think you're scum over and over agin this game. n fact, my readlist has you listed as the scummiest person in this game. I just happened to be answering questions about Red, Saul, and Sunset in relation to my readlist in that post, which why your name never came up.

[Inferno390]

You're null because what you have posted doesn't seem scummy or towny. It's also hard to read any of your posts as towny or scummy because I don't have a lot to work off of for you.
Sunset's also has few posts, but her posts seem significantly weaker or scummier than yours, hence the difference.

[Inferno390]

inferno
being "negative" about the first few reads of the game isnt a scumtell
do you have any actual reasons to think im scum

"First few reads" =/= post 186, where I first make this statement. And if it wasn't true up until this post, I would've stopped saying it, don't you think?
You've also contibuted very little to this game, there's a ton of empty posts in your ISO.

To clarify I don't want the day to end rn.

don't think anyone wants the day to end right now except scum.

You're null because what you have posted doesn't seem scummy or towny. It's also hard to read any of your posts as towny or scummy because I don't have a lot to work off of for you.
Sunset's also has few posts, but her posts seem significantly weaker or scummier than yours, hence the difference.

and im the scummiest player in the game in your opinion like two posts ago

This is directed at Red, sheep.
Which would be obvious if you'd been paying attention to the thread and actually read my post.

[Inferno390]

inferno
being "negative" about the first few reads of the game isnt a scumtell
do you have any actual reasons to think im scum

"First few reads" =/= post 186

yes it does actually

You've also contibuted very little to this game

look who's talking lol

Which would be obvious if you'd been paying attention to the thread and actually read my post.

who does that these days

A) Thanks for taking half of my post out of context.
B) By post 186, we were 8 pages into the game, over half of what we have now. There was plenty of reading going on and we had moved far eyond "the first few reads."
C) I have done plenty of reading this game. Have I actually made a non-RVS post that was not me reading, expressing an opinion of a post, or clarifying my reads? you, on the other hand, are on the other end of this spectrum. I have 34 posts that all mean something. You have 127 that for the most part mean NOTHING.
This looks like an incredibly bad attempt to shade my entire game as shitposting.
D) Town. People trying to win the game. People trying to scumread rather than throwing out wild claims to make other's posts look bad.

Hey, look, Dia, I'm in a really obnoxious 1v1!

[Inferno390]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: inferno


yassssss

Why are you voting me?

[Inferno390]

if i have 127 posts i hope i have more than 34 posts of contribution
it's not the ratio that matters

You have like 10-15, looking at your ISO. Maybe 20.
And the ratio does matter, because large amounts of shitposting in an attempt to look active is scummy behavior. Activity alone is NAI, but how much scumhuntng you actually do compared to how much you actually post is AI. It's scummy.

no like
who actually reads every post these days
i guess some tryhards do but it's not alignment indicative

Sure, not reading every post is NAI.
Butyou've made several dumb mistakes by not carefully reading posts.
I don't read every post either, but I make sure I actually read a post before I respond to it.
Which you obviously are not.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: inferno


yassssss

Why are you voting me?

because you are scum

TywinL? Is that you?
Seriously, explain your claim. Because I've seen this nonsense before (in my first game, no less), and just calling me scum means nothing.

[Inferno390]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: inferno


yassssss

Why are you voting me?

because you are scum

This will end well. *lol*

Yeah, and Ty actually PMed me the other day and told me that he was actually scum in that game, so this makes me all kind of leery of what's coming in terms of explanation.
Also, I'd like to point out that this is the second time I've been voted for with literally no explanation and I've had to wring it out of the voter. (The first one was sheep, and he didnt't even explain afterward.)

[Inferno390]

And the ratio does matter, because large amounts of shitposting in an attempt to look active is scummy behavior. Activity alone is NAI, but how much scumhuntng you actually do compared to how much you actually post is AI. It's scummy.

no
this is literally just an nai playstyle thing

No, it's not a "nai playstyle thing". 1 Shitpost =/= scummy, but 90% shitposts == SCUMMY.
And looking back through your games, this is EXACTLY how sheep plays scum and NOT AT ALL how sheep plays town.
You are so scum it's ridiculous.

[Inferno390]

no like
who actually reads every post these days
i guess some tryhards do but it's not alignment indicative

Sure, not reading every post is NAI.
Butyou've made several dumb mistakes by not carefully reading posts.
I don't read every post either, but I make sure I actually read a post before I respond to it.
Which you obviously are not.

yeah
it's nai
it doesnt matter
next

I think the point of this specific argum-- I mean, conversation is not whteher or not it's NAI but that you need to actually read posts before you reply to them please and thank you.

i did explain actually

Oh, yeah, you did.

Just because of this chain, I'm seriously starting to lean on a Sheep/Saul scumteam. Sheep has been nothing but negative on all my and Avi's reads and thoughts this game, Saul has contributed little to none in terms of real scumhunting (only 5 posts, an RVS vote, and a wild attack on Avi), and this looks like an attempt from Sheep to cover up a dumb response on Saul's part.

this was why i voted
like the ic's do this in newbies so ima try

class, can someone tell me why this post is scummy?

It was a frickin' OMGUS vote.

[Inferno390]

@Mod, can I link completed games to this thread?

[Inferno390]

Inferno:

if sheep is scum then who would be his partner

My thoughts are Saul, creature to a lesser extent, or you.
You've mostly fallen becasue of the wild vote on me which you have failed to explain.
Saul for the reasons I have already stated.
Creature because he only has 26 posts and his reading doesn't seem very strong. I feel like as an SE his reads should be a bit stronger than they are.

inferno of course you can

Cool, I'm gonna link all the games where you play like this to the thread then.

[Inferno390]

viewtopic.php?t=73781&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=73827&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=73757&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

All of these have you playing a lot like you're playing now. And I couldn't find one of you playing town like this (sheep was scum in all of these games).

Conclusion? This is your scum meta. Negative towards reads, not contributing, shitposting quite a bit, etc.

[Inferno390]

Inferno:

if sheep is scum then who would be his partner

My thoughts are Saul, creature to a lesser extent, or you.
You've mostly fallen becasue of the wild vote on me which you have failed to explain.
Saul for the reasons I have already stated.
Creature because he only has 26 posts and his reading doesn't seem very strong. I feel like as an SE his reads should be a bit stronger than they are.

inferno of course you can

Cool, I'm gonna link all the games where you play like this to the thread then.

if inferno flips scum then other is in saul and creature because of rule of threes
saul most likely

red/saul/inferno are still my favorite lynches today; i can go with any of them

if sheep is scum then it is in saul/inferno


however these borh are only is true if sheep vs inferno is TvS

so it is probably saul again

Of course, these don't even consider you.
This defintiely seems to be self-shading as town.
Rule of threes? What the heck is rule of threes?
I'd be good with a saul lynch today. That's where I would lean if not for sheep. Sheep is just wasy too scummy to ignore.

[Inferno390]

i told you didnt actually look through my games lol
my scum meta is really tryhard
my town meta is super laxed
pmuch

I did look thoguh your games. I messed up the second game becasue I misread it. Which is my bad.

[Inferno390]

rule of threes is when a player is scum and outing reads like
"I scumread: Joy, Seulgi and Wendy"
one of joy seulgi and wendy is usually scum
it does not necessarily to be townread it can be other reads too
it happens very common

Okay, but this is assuming you know who scum is, which you don't, and that scum wouldn't give 3 non-scum name, which you don't know if they would do or not.

[Inferno390]

And this is just a wild accusation of scummiest.
I would ask because you're basically going around assuming that people are scum and so one of these other people are scum. I don't care if the rule is true or not, at this point, your basing everything on assumptions...
to point an awful finger at Saul. Combined with the at Saul is playing, leaves me with one of two options:
A) Actually saul/sheep scumteam like you suggested, and saul is just really bad scum
B) Red is scum trying to use bad play from Saul to get a mislynch

I'm getting nowhere with my vote on sheep right now, and Red has been doing a lot of things that either feel anti-town to me of are obviously anti-town at the minimum, so
VOTE: Red
Gonna do some digging in this direction and come back to sheep closer to deadline.

[Inferno390]

does someone want to explain what creature has done that is ai

he voted saul
but gutty read idk

While I also do not like the vote, I also feel like this is grasping at straws for creature. I think that his vote was more of a reasonless vote, because he had formed opinions on other people and s he didn't want to voe on them... so he voted saul. Not exactly the strongest vote, but definitely not the weakest I've seen this game either.
That being said, what he has done does not feel like strong scumreading to me, so I've got a little scumlean on him.

[Inferno390]

so inferno
now do you want to try to find actual evidence against me

first help me try to see how being "negative to reads" is a scumtell

Going to ignore this because this is obviously scumbait and I learned my lesson from TywinL.

[Inferno390]

Also I'm still feeling manic and the shit post style is giving me a splitting headache to read. >_<

I think that would be called the point of the shitpost style.
Say, Dia, remember how in the Deco Murders there was so much talk about lynching annoying people becasue they were making it so hard to play the game?

[Inferno390]

Also I'm still feeling manic and the shit post style is giving me a splitting headache to read. >_<

I think that would be called the point of the shitpost style.
Say, Dia, remember how in the Deco Murders there was so much talk about lynching annoying people becasue they were making it so hard to play the game?

This post feels like he is going to suggest dia to lynch me because he called me antitown

No, that was aimed at sheep, not you

[Inferno390]

lurkers are why you have vigs
396 is newbscum or vi
sunlit im psure you dont think inferno is vi?

Wait
I dont understand his reason to not answer you

I moved my vote to you and I'm not going to get pulled back into a 1v1 with sheep where all he does is discredit my claims and tells me everything I see is NAI. Which is not to say that I haven't made some mistakes in this exchange, but still.

I'm also starting to notice that sheep is acting a lot like Ty was that game...
which is pretty NAI, but also something to think about.

[Inferno390]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=73575

[Inferno390]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=73575

Too big walls Im not reading that

L.M.A.O.

[Inferno390]

Sheep is doing towny things like scumhunting and has like 150 posts

Creature is same but it also has a bit gutread

Okay activity =/= town. Just becasue Sheep has 150 posts does not mean that mosts of those posts mean anything. In fact, lots of sheeps posts have no value to the town. Sheep has actually contributed very little to town in comparison to some of the other, more active players.

[Inferno390]

You have 3 times the posts of everyone else and about 1/5 of the quality of everyone else.
As for contributing the most, Red, Dia, and I have definitely contributed more than you have. Because most of you're stuff over the first 8 pages is telling me and Avi that our reads are wrong.
I say red because his posts seem actively immersed in the game, sifting through posts. Your posts are definitely the other side of the scale.

Remember,
QUALITY =/= QUANTITY
&
ACTIVITY =/= TOWN

[Inferno390]

im just not buying that after 18 pages you only have one "kind of i guess" read

I'm not buying that you've contibuted more than any other person in this game.

[Inferno390]

Oh, and

@Mod, I'm going to be LA until Monday due to a lot of things going on this weekend

.

[Inferno390]

Lol there are at least 2 scum in my wagon

Also whats the reason for people to vote me

Omgus probably

A) Why would you awnser your own question here.
B) I think people have plenty of reasons to vote you and you just want ot brush them off as OMGUS.
C) This is funny coming from the guy who never explained why he's voting for me.

[Inferno390]

fuck no have they contributed more than i have
r e a d
my fucking posts

also red pmuch doesnt actually contribute

This is
A) A wild attack on Red by shading him as not contributing to the town
B) blatantly ridiculous, becasue approximately 75 percent (and that's generous based on what your early game looked like) of your posts are not contributing, just telling people that they're wrong or their reads are NAI, or calling me scum.
Which leaves you with a maximum of 44 posts that actually mean something, and everyone I mentioned has more posts than that.

holy shit why can you not understand that fluffing is just nai

I agree that a little bit of fluffing is NAI, but the amount of "fluffing" you're doing is not "fluffing." When your posts make up 1/4 of the total posts in the game and your posts take up half the page, it ceases to be "fluffing." And this has been the case the eniter game.

You can come up with terms and claim to be contributing all you want, sheep, but telling everyone that they are wrong is not contributing, and fluffing is not a 75% post ratio.

[Inferno390]

im just not buying that after 18 pages you only have one "kind of i guess" read

I'm not buying that you've contibuted more than any other person in this game.

oh my fucking god
read my fucking iso

If I posted your ISO right now, you would be ashamed of how much you've "contributed."
Actually, I might do that when I get the chance.

[Inferno390]

Okay, so I was in the middle of the ISO and then I lost everything because the internet hates me, so screw that, I'm just going to explain what I saw as I was reading through sheeps posts.
The first 3 or 4 pages of the game, sheep's posts weren't bad.
Then, you can almost see the transition. Walls and walls of posts that just hate on people's reads, don't make sense, or literally mean nothing from a town stand point. No hunting, no analyzing posts, no hard reading on people, nothing. And it goes on forever, with little bursts of actual reading scattered throughout.
Plus, there's some really obvious weird stuff in the ISO, like sheep calling saul town and defending his really bad response, and then out of nowhere voting saul with a pretty weak explanation as to why.
He claims he's explained his wild vote on me, but he really doesn't: He just tosses one of my posts up in the air and says, "quick, someone tell me why this is scummy!" Which is not an awnser at all, it's just dodging the question by throwing my posts at me.
He also blows off a lot of my reads, but that's probably because I've been tunneling him (which needs to stop, and I'll get to that in a sec.)

And now he's adamant that he's contributed to this game, whereas I can hit post after post where he actually has not.
VOTE: sheep

Now let me get to you, red.

[Inferno390]

And this is just a wild accusation of scummiest.
I would ask because you're basically going around assuming that people are scum and so one of these other people are scum. I don't care if the rule is true or not, at this point, your basing everything on assumptions...
to point an awful finger at Saul. Combined with the at Saul is playing, leaves me with one of two options:
A) Actually saul/sheep scumteam like you suggested, and saul is just really bad scum
B) Red is scum trying to use bad play from Saul to get a mislynch

I'm getting nowhere with my vote on sheep right now, and Red has been doing a lot of things that either feel anti-town to me of are obviously anti-town at the minimum, so
VOTE: Red
Gonna do some digging in this direction and come back to sheep closer to deadline.

Like
You said I did things antitown and voted me for that
Can you point what I did antitown? I hope its not just putting myself at L-1

fuck no have they contributed more than i have
r e a d
my fucking posts

also red pmuch doesnt actually contribute

This is
A) A wild attack on Red by shading him as not contributing to the town
B) blatantly ridiculous, becasue approximately 75 percent (and that's generous based on what your early game looked like) of your posts are not contributing, just telling people that they're wrong or their reads are NAI, or calling me scum.
Which leaves you with a maximum of 44 posts that actually mean something, and everyone I mentioned has more posts than that.

holy shit why can you not understand that fluffing is just nai

I agree that a little bit of fluffing is NAI, but the amount of "fluffing" you're doing is not "fluffing." When your posts make up 1/4 of the total posts in the game and your posts take up half the page, it ceases to be "fluffing." And this has been the case the eniter game.

You can come up with terms and claim to be contributing all you want, sheep, but telling everyone that they are wrong is not contributing, and fluffing is not a 75% post ratio.

You say sheep is scum and you are still voting me however you said sheep had a blatant attack on me. Do you really think that both of us can be scum or you are just taking the opportunity of sheep having short and many posts and attacking to it, also me putting myself to L-1

No, it's not the L-1 from RVS. considering the timing and everything, I'd actually say that's the least anti-town thing you've done.
My thinking is that you've definitely got some good reading posts. But there is a lot of posts that don't contribute to town in your ISO (though not nearly as bad as sheep). And then you have that really sudden vote in posts 339 and 344. The reason I don't like this vote is because in the very first game I was in (the Deco Murders game) one of the scum did the exact same thing to me (I was vi) an then just tunneled me. I knew he was full of b.s. and that his logic was bad, and so I tunneled him. (Hence the walls.) It's also a logical fallacy, but that's wiki stuff which I won't get into here because I'm refraining from that route. But when you did that, I immediately became wary, because its a pretty anti-town play based on my past experience.
Then there was the rule of threes thing, which ahs a couple of thing s wrong with it. First, your assuming the scum pool, second, it's wiki-style play, which I've already leaned means basically nothing in this game, and third, what it actually ended up doing was put major pressure on saul, which is really weird since saul already looks bad. This is when it occurred to me that you could be scum trying to use this rule of threes ploy to put incredible stress on a player who already looked bad. I wasn't getting anywhere with anymore, it had just become stupid 1v1, so I decided to do some more digging in your direction, and I moved the vote to you to add some weight.
But since then, sheep has been ridic. again, which means the vote has returned to him, for the reasons I've stated above (among others that I've already stated this game). I don't think both of you could be scum at this point. I'm leaning much harder on a sheep/saul team (which again, I've explained why before). But I wanted to get away from the 1v1 and some of the things you were doing seemed odd, so that's why the vote ended up in your direction.

[Inferno390]

Only people I’m voting today are Saul or creature

Why? I mean, I am also up for a saul lynch today based on my reads, but why specifically these two people?

[Inferno390]

The first 3 or 4 pages of the game, sheep's posts weren't bad.

The only posts you've used in your defense are from page 2. If you'd ike to show me the same kind of posts from, say, page 10, then we'll have a talk.

The fact of the matter is, I'm the one looking at the big picture here, while your defense is the misrepresentation.
You haven't actaully refuted any of my claims, you've just said that I'm making crap up. Which leads back to the hating on my reads. Or, if you want a more elegant way to put it, taking all my reads and telling me that I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about. Which would not be an appeal to emotion. AtE is using appealing to fear or hope or trust or something of the sort, which is not what I'm doing here, and even if it was (wiki time, because why not):

--played by both/all Factions in most games at some point.--
So basically NAI.

[Inferno390]

hating on my reads.

can you actually fuck off with this
it's so fucking triggering

This is still misrepresentation.

You haven't actually refuted any of my claims, you've just said that I'm making crap up. Which leads back to the hating on my reads.

Or, if you want a more elegant way to put it, taking all my reads and telling me that I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Inferno390]

READ MY ISO before you talk shit about my iso and have no idea what the fuck youre talking about

next

You haven't actually refuted any of my claims, you've just said that I'm making crap up. Which leads back to the hating on my reads. Or, if you want a more elegant way to put it, taking all my reads and telling me that I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about.

Oh my gosh.
You're literally going to sit there and tell me that you aren't doing this while you're literally sitting here and dong it?

[Inferno390]

Going by last login date, Saul has site flaked.

I haven't had a lot to say because my vote is where I want it to be.

Well, this could throw all our reads on his slot on their head.

@MOD, can we plese have a replacement for SaulJoker's slot?

[Inferno390]

VOTE: SaulJoker

L-1 on Saul.
Hmm. It's too early to hammer. 5 days is still plenty of time to do some more hunting.
DIa, what are your thoughts on Sheep and I and our 1v1? I've noticed you haven't given your opinion on any of that for a bit.

[Inferno390]

Inferno's last post is pinging me.

What about it pings you

^^^

[Inferno390]

I like to hide my reasoning for town reads but I’m more than willing to explain any and all reads I have in this setting!

Please do explan them. The more open everyone is about their reads, the better time town will have sorting town from scum.

[Inferno390]

i dont like the way red just asks questions everytime someone says smth instead of providing thoughts

????

While I agree that Red should provide his thoughts, isn't 3/4ths of what you're supposed to be doing is ask questions to gather more reads on people? And hasn't Red stated his reads several times this game?

[Inferno390]

no that's bullshit

A) This is just telling me I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about again.
B) Why don't you actually explain why that's wrong with my thinking instead of giving a 3-word, basically useless answer? Because that would be a lot more helpful.

I hope people see this and understand that this is one of the things I'm talking about when I say you're not contributing and "hating" on my posts. There are tons of these one-sentence, 10-or-less words in your ISO that don't help people hunt or read at all, especially looking past page 3 or 4. You're just saying things, which looks like an attempt to hide behind posts and not actually provide useful information to the town. You aren't explaining your reads, you're not explaining why I'm wrong all the time, you're really explaining anything. In fact, post 534 was the first time I've seen you explain anything for a while. And I'll admit that my meta read was stupid, incorrect, and half-baked, but that doesn't make the rest of my reasons false. If I ISO you and scroll about halfway down the page, there's almost nothing that actually contributes to town play. Town should be actively hunting, asking questions, and generating discussion in an attempt to sort scum. All of which your posts fail to do. At least the post that you've called bullshit is doing that, while you're just sitting here telling me that my posts are crap and I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Inferno390]

Asking too many questions is an excellent way to "active lurk." The person doing it doesn't have to provide any input of their own that might later prove difficult to counter and the questions themselves can cause town players to spiral into twisty false suspicion spirals. Two for one.

Okay, makes sense.
This makes me think that Red is doing just this, because his ISO seems to follow this trend of questions with no input. I'm scumreading Red a little harder now...

[Inferno390]

Yes, I have played with NM before.
And it's not simply you attacking my posts that is AI for me, is the fact that you're attacking my posts alongside of to providing any help at all to the town. If you were constructively helping newbie with their reading, it would be different. But from where I stand, it looks like you're playing against the town by attacking my posts while at the same time not providing reads, opinions, or questions that the town can work off of and sort scum. You're just kind of tunneling me by telling me that all my posts suck and I have no idea what I'm talking about and calling me scum.

[Inferno390]

Immediate impulse is that it's aviqf tbh.

There were points where sunset was getting pushed by inferno that felt SvS ish

Yeah him in art deco is a far cry from him in this game.

VOTE: Inferno390

Also I'm feeling suicidal or masochistic or both.

VOTE: Inferno

Come at me.

this is a good vote and you should feel good about yourself for having made it but slightly less good because you have retracted the vote with the potential to feel good again if you make the vote again

Okay, quick ISO of what RC has posted so far, and I'm going to grab these qotes for further questions and points, but here's what I'm noticing:
RC shows up, tells everyone that he has a claim strat for this new setup, reads back through the game, attacks me with the only explanation being that my thoughts on Sunset looking like SvS, and then nothing from her that helps town at all from that point forwards.

Other notes:
RC starts shading Dia as town from his very first post.
Constantly shading himsef as town.
Post 3 above feels like an incredible anti AoE here. It's basically making Dia feel good about his vote on me.

Now questions:
What about my 1v1 with Sunset felt SvS to you?
What about my play this game is different from Deco Art? Becasue Dia has stated that I'm within his meta on me based on that game. So what about my play differs? The fact that I've gotten better since that game and I'm not in a wally 1v1? Because if it is, that's hardly AI.

Honestly, reading back through everything and doing some thought today offsite, am coming to the conclusion that Red and RC look a lot scummier than sheep do.
VOTE: Red
Dia made an excellent point when he pointed out that Red was using questions to avoid giving input of his own. In fact, the only posts I've seen from him that aren't questions seem incredibly opportunistic.
I'm definitely scumreading sheep far too hard, his ISO is not nearly as bad as I've been feeling it was compared to others.
There's been a major shakeup on my readlist over the last 24 hours, but I'm going to keep it brief and say that sheep looks quite a bit townier, Red looks a lot scummier to me, RC+Saul definitely has sme scummy vibes, and I've got some shadows of doubt on Dia now from the combination of Dia voting me nad then RC coming in hard in an attempt to get me lynched.
My guess at a scumteam at this point would be RC/Red, just based on play. After that, it would be RC/Dia because of the exchange I mentioned above.
MY favorite lynch at this point is Red, because I don't have enough on RC to make a deeper read.

Other thoughts on the last 3 pages:
Avi's hammer intent looks pretty opportunistic, but could have also been an ill timed intent to get a PR claim. My question is why didn't RC ask some questions about this instead of focusing in on me? This seems to be a pretty bad vote on Avi's part, and wouldn't the obvios thing to do is to start digging in that direction?
Dia seems pretty intent to get Red lynched...
Why must Dia and RC clog the thread up with unneccesary chater?

[Inferno390]

I just want the Saul slot lynched

But WHY?
And no, "just because is not a good awnser. While I agree that Saul's play was scummy to begin with, this is not Sul we're dealing wit hanymore. RC's play in the future might change your mind about that slot sometime in D2.
How about this. I'm also looking at saul's slot as scum right now, but we don't have enough to work off of to lynch the slot now that RC has moved in. How about looking at some different players and choose a potential canidate from someone who's not just replaced in?

[Inferno390]

I just want the Saul slot lynched

I am town though, so unless you have something personally against me you do not want to Lynch me.

What's the reason that you scumread Saul to the extent of completely ignoring my contribution to the game?

I, for one, don't think you have actually contributed very much to this game, and you would be a plausible lynch if you hadn't just replaced in.

[Inferno390]

Don't under estimate, don't over estimate. Just be aware of the type of player he is. Also: inferno, you're scum reading me for voting for you? Did I read that right?

Actually, its not the vote itself that is giving me the read. It's the fact that the vote got followed up by an attack from RC, whose only reasoning is the Deco Art meta, which your posts seem to disagree with, and that some of my posts with Sunset seem SvS, which I'm not really seeing. Then she got all over how your vote was actaully a good vote, despite the fact that you haven't actyually explained why I look scummy.
And it's really RC I'm scumreading because of all of this. But when I look at RC and ask myself who her scumpartner could be, this exchange makes me think that it's possible that you could be her partner.

[Inferno390]

Hi!

So there's two ways we can play this game

We can go ahead with a claim strategy that I'm developing but not 100% on optimal performance of yet

Or we can not do that and play this like normal mafia

@sunlit diamond I think you're town work with me?

Also I'm feeling suicidal or masochistic or both.

VOTE: Inferno

Come at me.

Immediate impulse is that it's aviqf tbh.

There were points where sunset was getting pushed by inferno that felt SvS ish

Inferno is who I'm setting up to vote rn

Yeah him in art deco is a far cry from him in this game.

VOTE: Inferno390

Also I'm feeling suicidal or masochistic or both.

VOTE: Inferno

Come at me.

this is a good vote and you should feel good about yourself for having made it but slightly less good because you have retracted the vote with the potential to feel good again if you make the vote again

I'm good with going back to that vote. I need to spend some time today putting together what's bugging me.

VOTE: Inferno

This one.

[Inferno390]

Also, reading your ISO, Dia, I'm having a hard time leaning either way with you. Some of your posts seem like scumhunting, but something about them makes me feel like they're written like you're watching from a distance. It all pings me for some reason, but I can't put my finger on why...

[Inferno390]

lynch this

Why, sheep? Stop saying you want me lynched and actually give me a reason why!

[Inferno390]

good first step stop pretending there's no reason

Then say it. Or point me to where you've said it. Because you've either not said it, or I can't remember because ists's been so long since you've said it.
I'm not pretending. This is like the third time I've asked why you want me lynched. And I can't remember you ever giving a reasonable awnser.

[Inferno390]

OMGUS

VOTE: inferno

Wait, are you saying that my vote on you is OMGUS or your vote on me is OMGUS?
Either way this vote is very naked and doesn't make me feel any better about you, Red.

Okay so wrt my scumread on Inferno it's a bunch of things.

1) The way he talks he's not like sorting the game he's making a show of stuff. Like it's really posturey and it reads as someone putting on a show for an audience.

F) The timing of this seems a little fishy. (Perhaps that's just me.) And Red wasn't that oblivious to his L2, was he? Could Red and Sheep be scumpartners doing a little RVS back and forth? Seems unlikely, considering this IS a Newbie game, but you never know...
G)Why would you RESTATE your vote, Sheep?

I write the first scumhunting post of the game. Sheep says it's forced. Then sheep asks ME, the writer of the post, if I think MY OWN post is forced. I tell him that I obviously think the post is not forced, because it's MY post. Then Sheep blatantly tells me my opinion is wrong as implies that I'm scum.

Stuff like this. It feels super not genuine and makes me think that he's scum putting on a show of having positions. If I had to put even more specific words I'd say that he's talking the way that my dad talks when he's lying. And there is some of that in his town game which initially gave me pause but it's definitely not nearly as trumped up as it is here where it feels super surreal. Like a big thing for me is him posing the questions to the audience to make a show that he's thinking about things, a big example of that can be found here

I'm not understanding this at all. The second post he quotes is literally me stating exactly what happened in the game. And the first is me trying to start reading off of RVS.

Also, Sunset seems to be lurking quite a bit proportionally and not very sure of herself. Just not very good or newbscum?

It's also weird just generally how he talks about Sunset. With most people he has and commits to a read of some sort on them, possibly more aggressively than is real, but with Sunset he goes the opposite way and waffles all over the place about them and it feels like it might be newbscum trying to put together real associatives by seeming like they're genuinely considering the possibility of them being scum. Even if she's town the whole thing is really out of place and it doesn't seem like it would be his real approach.

Sunset was ALSO waffling around a bit when I made this post. And she only had like 5 posts at the time. I don't understand how I'm supposed to not be unsure how to read Sunset's play here.

Also strongly scum indicative is

There's maybe a slight bit of scumhunting, but it's very broken up, and not really useful to the town.

Where he basically substitutes is useful to the town for scummy/fake and it's a common thing that comes from newbscum who aren't totally comfortable calling someone scummy.

But I've been calling sheep scum all game, and that is who this post he's quoting is talking about... and this is not the only reason I've called sheep scum either. This completely misrepresents the post.

I didn't want to seem overconfident and make a mistake.

What do you mean by 'make a mistake'? Town generally should not need to worry about making mistakes.

What I mean is that I don't want to do something stupid like getting a power role lynched day one. That counts as a mistake.

this seems like a power role claim.

This is also just super weird.

How is this weird?

First off, stop acting like an IC, because you're not, and you do not know everything about how to play this game. There are other people in this game who are IC's and there is a reason that they are IC's, and there is a reason that you're not an IC.
Second, so what you've basically said is that your vote is an OMGUS vote, because the only reason you're voting for me is because you don't like this post.
Third, how about you actually explain why you think this post is scummy instead of asking everyone else, because right now it looks like you're just shading this post as scummy to draw some heat off of my attack on you.

This actually really reads as a scum defensiveness, if he was town who thought that they were scum he shouldn't care so much that they're scumreading him?

How does this come off as defensive? This is me being aggressive against sheep. Because he basically voted me without giving a reason. So I called it out. I don't understand how this can be turned into a defensive post.

Also more recently and largely the nail in the coffin for me: I can't see a newer player seeing me and sunlit diamond as SvS.

Like if I were newer town who thought that I was scum I would think that Sunlit diamond is town 100% of the time. It doesn't really make sense that he thinks that I'm spending all this time buttering her up unless he thinks that it's next level play but he's given no indication that he thinks it's next level play, he just seems to think at face value that's what it looks like. And I can't believe that coming from newbtown. There's a very clear read through that I'm scum and that I'm kissing up to sunlit to get her on my side, there's really no read through I can think of that explains how he thinks that we're SvS and it feels like he's just looking for people to call scum.

VOTE: Inferno

I think I'm done, that's the lynch today.

This seems incredibly contradictory. I don't think it's next level play, but I do think the exchange could have been two scum setting up to get me lynched?

I'm voting for inferno because my experience of him is that he is very decisive in his reads and isn't afraid to go to the mat for what he believes- which I haven't seen here. It's very possible that is because he took the advice I gave him in Art Deco and is trying to moderate himself...but it's more probable that he is scum trying to push bad reads.

Definitely the first. I've been trying to watch myself this game and not end up in a giant 1v1 and stall the game out like in Deco Murders.
However, this confuses me because of these posts:

Inferno was so transparently, unfakeably, town in art deco it was painful. His 23 does not seem out of line with my experience there, but I'm curious to see him in a 1v1 here for that reason.

I'm good with pressure on Red. Inferno is still within what I know of his town meta.

I don't like Saul.

You've been saying that I'm within my town meta for most of the game, and now all of the sudden, I'm not? This makes no sense to me.
Plus, this accusation has been far from true because I've been pressuring sheep hard as scum for most of the game. In fact, my scumread has laid within Red/sheep/saul+RC slots almost the entire game. So how can you say that I'm not "very decisive in his reads and isn't afraid to go to the mat for what he believes"?

Then I noticed this:

The post pinged me because it felt staged. Why is it too early to hammer, exactly?

Which came before you posted this:

Inferno is at L-1. Please don't anyone be a complete idiot.

Which looks like you shading that it's still too early to hammer. So I don't understand why you would ask the first question at all. If it's too early to hammer now, why would it be not too early to hammer before now?

[Inferno390]

All in all, I'm starting to read Dia as scum harder now. There's definitely some contradictions between what he's saying now and previous posts, which is mighty odd.

Reading through his ISO again, there's also not nearly as much hunting as I previously thought. He also jumps on my wagon way too fast for my comfort.

Avi, I think you might be right and the saul slot is scum. RC's wall on me just has way too many holes to make sense.

MY scumreads are Dia, RC, and Red at this point.

[Inferno390]

EBWOP: I was about to ask where Uzi and Creature were lol.

[Inferno390]

I just want the Saul slot lynched

But WHY?
And no, "just because is not a good awnser. While I agree that Saul's play was scummy to begin with, this is not Sul we're dealing wit hanymore. RC's play in the future might change your mind about that slot sometime in D2.
How about this. I'm also looking at saul's slot as scum right now, but we don't have enough to work off of to lynch the slot now that RC has moved in. How about looking at some different players and choose a potential canidate from someone who's not just replaced in?

I don’t think this is the right mindset to have right now. Was Saul a difficult read? Yes, but if you strongly feel the content that you did manage to understand is coming from scum, no replacement can change that.

And also, usually if a day is 15 pages long, it's long enough. I understand people don't like to be wrong but whatever minor information or details you're waiting on isn't worth the inertia it produces to stall the town. Getting it moving again can be so frustrating and hard. Town needs some momentum to stay engaged and active.

He was a difficult read, and I did read him as scummy. But there were plenty of other scummy players today, and I think that lynching the replacement without reading him is a really bad idea, because Saul could have just been playing really crappy. He did just site flake, after all.
That being said, I am reading RC as pretty scummy, so perhaps it's the right lynch for D1.

[Inferno390]

MY scumreads are Dia, RC, and Red at this point.

bc im gud and you got scared of pushing me amirite

No, becasue there are other people in the game right now who seem scummier to me, so you fell off of my radar.
Did you completely miss the post where I said I've probably been tunneling you too hard and that there are scummier players in the game that I think should be lynched?

[Inferno390]

And that's coming from trying to be pro-town and set a good example for people whose experience of being certain that someone is scum don't justify quicklynching ever RC but at this point I'm 95%+ on this being a scumflip and I think that there's a fairly high chance that a claim gets forced out of my slot if we don't make inferno happen now.

I'd really like to see your claim.

[Inferno390]

I'm feeling like sheep is slipping back to useless posts again...

[Inferno390]

Honestly starting to think that RC looks scummier than Red. Feeling a little bit better about Dia, but not much. The entire exchange between RC and Dia pings me like crazy, and there are contradictory parts of Dia's ISO that I'm going to get to here in a sec. I feel like your read change happened way too suddenly to make sense, Dia, and honestly, my 1v1 with sheep has not been like the 1v1 with Ty, who was just trying to pick all my attacks on him apart. Sheep has just been telling me that everything I say is stupid, which makes it really hard to 1v1 him with any intensity. Honestly, I'd compare it closer to my 1v1 with NM that game.

[Inferno390]

UNVOTE:

I'm getting jumpy.

This makes no sense. Why unvote if you're so sure I'm scum?

[Inferno390]

Also, Sunset seems to be lurking quite a bit proportionally and not very sure of herself. Just not very good or newbscum?

You know better than this inferno. Sup.

LUV: inferno and I played in a game with three lurkers who were all town, and two of them were PRs. He's also shown a marked preference for leaning hard on the wiki. Therefore, in my opinion he should know better than to question activity as a measure of towniness or lack thereof.

Point being: if he knows better, why is he making that comment? And I'd like a response from him.

my read on Sunset is dependent on more activity. What I'm seeing as scummy might be uncertain newbie, but without further activity/clarification from her (or her slot) she's on my lynch list.

If Sunset wasn't MIA I'd consider voting for her.

I don't believe in lynching absent spots, but the tone of her posts was questionable. Reminds me of my first scum game where I was like "OH GOD I'M GONNA DIIIIIE."

This is one of the big contradictory spots I'm talking about. I ask the question of Sunset being newbscum, and Dia makes a big deal over the question. Then he goes and basically resates my question. And now Dia's ready to lynch becasue of exactly what he told me was a bad question.

Because my read on her wasn't just her activity or lack thereof. It was on the fact that ther was little activity, and what activity did exist seemed very unsure and newbscum.
So Dia basically shaded my question as scum and then restated my question as a read.

[Inferno390]

UNVOTE:

I'm getting jumpy.

This makes no sense. Why unvote if you're so sure I'm scum?

I wasn't actually 95%+ sure you were scum: I wanted to see how Creature would react to it.
The fact remains that no one I scumread is playing how I would expect your scumpartner to play in a universe where you're scum and a lot of people are making the plays I'd expect them to make as scum if you were town.

See, now this sounds like your attack on me was completely made up and you backed down because I punched a bunch of holes in it.
Yeah, combined with Saul's play, I'm definitely reading this slot as scum.
VOTE: RC

For the record I'm still leaning you town Dia but I would put you behind others right now and I'm trying to get you out of my PoE if you're town

there's two things that are making me wary of your slot

1) I generally as a rule find that when I townread people they accept it and feel they deserve to be townread because I think fundamentally town believe that they deserve to be townread.
You have a high opinion of my play but when I townread you right away your impulse was to say that I, as town, was reaction testing you because I thought that you were scum.
That feels weird to me: it feels like the more natural play would be to assume my townread was real and I had you correctly if town or scum trying to get in your good graces if you think that I'm a good player and you have a town role PM.

2) Just generally like I don't feel much motivation by you to sort me. Admittedly I didn't have to sort you either but you mostly just seemed to accept my townread and townread me back.
Which is another way of asking why do you townread me, especially if now you're concerned that I was pushing a mislynch on Inferno?

I'm not saying either of these make you scum but they're holding me back right now.

And this feels like bussing after all the exchange going on between Dia nd RC, which makes me

less

comfortable with Dia.

This is one of the big contradictory spots I'm talking about. I ask the question of Sunset being newbscum, and Dia makes a big deal over the question. Then he goes and basically resates my question. And now Dia's ready to lynch becasue of exactly what he told me was a bad question.

Because my read on her wasn't just her activity or lack thereof. It was on the fact that ther was little activity, and what activity did exist seemed very unsure and newbscum.
So Dia basically shaded my question as scum and then restated my question as a read.

I don't think that it's unreasonable of Dia at all to scumread you going after Sunset for being a lurker when you just saw a game with 3 town lurkers.

A) MY last post in that game was 2 months ago, and I wasn't thinking about that game when I wrote that post.
B) If that's true, why would Dia then restate basically the exact same thing that I said?
C)

It's not just the lurking.

Golly, how many times am I going to have to say something like that? I never read someone for one isolated quality. I piece together a lot of different things that might be NAI alone, but together are scummy.

[Inferno390]

And that's coming from trying to be pro-town and set a good example for people whose experience of being certain that someone is scum don't justify quicklynching ever RC but at this point I'm 95%+ on this being a scumflip and I think that there's a fairly high chance that a claim gets forced out of my slot if we don't make inferno happen now.

I'd really like to see your claim.

wtf

i think I just totally confused sheep.

[Inferno390]

UNVOTE:

Inferno is town. Need to re-evaluate.

Okay, first I'm playing within my meta, then I'm playing out side of my meta, and now... I don't know what to think.
Why am I town again, exactly?

Also, I would like to point out, since we're talking so much about my meta, that I do have another game that no one has looked at that has me playing somewhat different (at least in my opinion) than Deco Mudrers, that no one has even thought to mention. And since I've been offsite for 2 months, my meta has probably changed a bit since my last games.

[Inferno390]

Inferno/Aviqf are you going to apologize after game when I'm town because this is completely unreasonable.

No. Because it's not unreasonable and this is an AoE.

See, now this sounds like your attack on me was completely made up and you backed down because I punched a bunch of holes in it.
Yeah, combined with Saul's play, I'm definitely reading this slot as scum.
VOTE: RC

You didn't punch shit in my reasoning, I just didn't feel the need to argue with you about it. Do you think that if I were scum I would be scared of you?

Nope. I think you'd think I'm a newbie that doesn't know how to play mafia, and you're a veteran, so you think you can outplay me and trip me up.
Besides, a town player would have argued his points or admitted that somw of what I was saying is true and they didn't see it that way, not just backed down and acted like their attack on me was to get a reaction on someone else. Becasue that makes no sense.

And I'm bussing sunlit when I am trying to clarify where she stands on things while explicitly saying that I'm not scumreading her? That's original

And I don't think you're trying to clarify anything. I think that you're trying to make it look like you're trying to read Dia, whereas basically since you've shown up you two have taken each other as town. This feels like trying to back down from your Dia/RC BFF position and look like you're reading him, which would be a slight bus in my opinion.
Of course, I could totally be using that term wrong. I've done it before!

[Inferno390]

Okay, first I'm playing within my meta, then I'm playing out side of my meta, and now... I don't know what to think.
Why am I town again, exactly?

You're not playing explicitly to your meta as I saw it in art deco but I think that the differences aren't necessarily scum indicative.
I stand by everything I said about your phrasings leaning scum but I even said while I said it that they existed in your town game too and I was never 100% sure that the difference mattered.
Mafia is a game of shades of grey and there's few things that are universally scum indicative for all people. I have no difficulty tracing Sunlit's read on you given how clear she was about how she reads you.

Okay, this is major backpedaling. Now it looks like you're completely changing your read on me. And this question wasn't even direted at you, it was directed at Dia, so why would you awnser it?

[Inferno390]

@MOD, can we get votecount?

[Inferno390]

inferno your progression is bullshit

Sheep,

you

are bullshit, and I would have you lynched right now for constantly telling me that I'm an idiot, but I have bigger fish to fry than whiny one-scentence posters.

[Inferno390]

red/saul/inferno are still my favorite lynches today; i can go with any of them

Go for it, but know that tomorrow you or red will be lynched for pushing me.

I'm fine with dying if it means one of you two gets lynched too.

btw red very nice voteback you did there.

like newsflash shit like this doesn't come from newb scum. there's nothing special about your saul read and he was actually sort of obvtown when I read him after replacing in.

Another thought on this is that RC is throwing heavy shade on himself as town. Especially in this post. In my eyes, this looks like a scum attempt to avoid a lynch without a PR claim, by using AoE. Which, by itself, wouldn't be so bad, but with the rest of Saul's posts makes me read him very much as scum. I think based on Saul's posts and posts count, he was hardly obvtown, and to go so far as to claim it looks like a fling to to shade as town.

I'm also thinking that Uzi is being very opportunistic in getting the Saul slot lynched. And what kind of reads have we actually seen from him?

[Inferno390]

inferno your progression is bullshit

Sheep,

you

are bullshit, and I would have you lynched right now for constantly telling me that I'm an idiot, but I have bigger fish to fry than whiny one-scentence posters.

Right: so here's the thing. If you do succeed in getting me lynched my last post is going to tell everyone to policy lynch you if you try to push reads for the remainder of the game because I'm thoroughly frustrated by everything that you've done so far and think that your vote largely works for scum regardless of your alignment.

Sheep isn't bullshit and his way of dealing with you may not be the most respectful but your way of approaching the game isn't so hot either.

You have a lot of ego invested in the game and it's fundamentally hurting your ability both to play the game and to have other people play nice with you.

A), this is AtP.
B) Perhaps that wasn't the best way to handle it, but I'm getting really sick of everytime I post something getting a post from sheep that basically tells me I'm an idiot and I have no idea what I'm doing. It's really quite frustrating to play a game wher e somone is contantly being derisve about everything you write. And I don't mean scumreading things I write. I mean being DERISIVE. Which also goes against the general site rules, but whatever.
C) How do I have ego invested in this game? Would you not respond the same way if you were being constantly breathed on by another player who told you that everything you did sucked?

[Inferno390]

Like your frustration with me leading to your vote is the kind of thing that is almost never going to cause you to vote scum, because scum don't actually have to try to scumhunt so they can be reserved in their actions.
They don't have to make pushes in ways that will rile up the people their voting so they will almost never be on the receiving end of your frustration with me for pushing on you.

I'm actaully not frustrated with you at all. How are you getting that from my posts? All I've done is found you scummier and scummier the more you post.

This seems like an incredible attempt to shade everything I've thrown at you so far as biased and unreasonable.

[Inferno390]

at this point this is stupid

oml this is fucking stupid

what the fuck are you doing

no that's bullshit

lynch this

MY scumreads are Dia, RC, and Red at this point.

bc im gud and you got scared of pushing me amirite

inferno your progression is bullshit

[Inferno390]

like you literally sr me because you say all i do is say youre stupid lmao

I'm not even scumreading you any more. I'm scumreading other poeple, and think that you're just a vi twit that thinks that he's better than everyone else in this game.

[Inferno390]

Like at the most basic level: do you think it's possible that your frustration with Sheep and being pushed on has caused you to revenge push me to get a feeling of control over the game? Because that's precisely what I feel is going on

No. The reason I'm pushing you is becasue you attacked me, I pointed out htat there were holes in your attack, and then you backed off and basically called your attack on me a reaction test for someone else. Which makes no sense.
And everything you'e done after that involving me shades me as something, usually in a way that discredits my read on you. Like this, which is trying to shade it as emotional and unfounded.

[Inferno390]

Inferno, you're not going to prove that you're better than Sheep when I flip town.

That's not even what this is. I'm making the point that sheep has been calling everything I do crap. Which has nothing to do with how I read you.

[Inferno390]

Like this, which is trying to shade it as emotional and unfounded.

Put yourself in my shoes: do you think that your push on me feels not-emotional and well founded from my position where I know that I'm town?

If I was town, and this was my push, I would say it makes sense. Becasue you attacked me, stopped attacking me really fast and ade a lame excuse as to why, and then started shading everything I say when I push.

[Inferno390]

what rc did makes a lot of sense
reading rc as town btw

pedit holy shit i dont call everything you do crap ok

This thread proves otherwise.

[Inferno390]

I am quite literally thinking about replacing out of this game. Because that's how tired of the way sheep is treating me.

[Inferno390]

I'm afraid I've already requested to be replaced out.

[Inferno390]

I'll think about it.
p-edit: That's fine with me, I guess.

[Inferno390]

Okay so wrt my scumread on Inferno it's a bunch of things.

1) The way he talks he's not like sorting the game he's making a show of stuff. Like it's really posturey and it reads as someone putting on a show for an audience.

F) The timing of this seems a little fishy. (Perhaps that's just me.) And Red wasn't that oblivious to his L2, was he? Could Red and Sheep be scumpartners doing a little RVS back and forth? Seems unlikely, considering this IS a Newbie game, but you never know...
G)Why would you RESTATE your vote, Sheep?

I write the first scumhunting post of the game. Sheep says it's forced. Then sheep asks ME, the writer of the post, if I think MY OWN post is forced. I tell him that I obviously think the post is not forced, because it's MY post. Then Sheep blatantly tells me my opinion is wrong as implies that I'm scum.

Stuff like this. It feels super not genuine and makes me think that he's scum putting on a show of having positions. If I had to put even more specific words I'd say that he's talking the way that my dad talks when he's lying. And there is some of that in his town game which initially gave me pause but it's definitely not nearly as trumped up as it is here where it feels super surreal. Like a big thing for me is him posing the questions to the audience to make a show that he's thinking about things, a big example of that can be found here

Well, my first thing is that this doesn't make any sense. The second post you quoted was me just reiterating what happened, and while the first quote does seem a little showy, it was also the first scumread of the game, and I was just trying to throw around theory and make discussion. So I'm not really getting how you can take this and turn it into a scumtell.

Also, Sunset seems to be lurking quite a bit proportionally and not very sure of herself. Just not very good or newbscum?

It's also weird just generally how he talks about Sunset. With most people he has and commits to a read of some sort on them, possibly more aggressively than is real, but with Sunset he goes the opposite way and waffles all over the place about them and it feels like it might be newbscum trying to put together real associatives by seeming like they're genuinely considering the possibility of them being scum. Even if she's town the whole thing is really out of place and it doesn't seem like it would be his real approach.

You say I'm waffling with Sunset, but sunset has posted very little and has been waffling herself at the point of this post. doesn't it make sense for me to be unsure on how to place her?

Also strongly scum indicative is

There's maybe a slight bit of scumhunting, but it's very broken up, and not really useful to the town.

Where he basically substitutes is useful to the town for scummy/fake and it's a common thing that comes from newbscum who aren't totally comfortable calling someone scummy.

I've been calling sheep scum for most of the game. So how can I be uncomfortable with calling him scummy?

I didn't want to seem overconfident and make a mistake.

What do you mean by 'make a mistake'? Town generally should not need to worry about making mistakes.

What I mean is that I don't want to do something stupid like getting a power role lynched day one. That counts as a mistake.

this seems like a power role claim.

This is also just super weird.

I don't understand how this is weird at all. I'm literally just trying to interpret sunset's post here.

First off, stop acting like an IC, because you're not, and you do not know everything about how to play this game. There are other people in this game who are IC's and there is a reason that they are IC's, and there is a reason that you're not an IC.
Second, so what you've basically said is that your vote is an OMGUS vote, because the only reason you're voting for me is because you don't like this post.
Third, how about you actually explain why you think this post is scummy instead of asking everyone else, because right now it looks like you're just shading this post as scummy to draw some heat off of my attack on you.

This actually really reads as a scum defensiveness, if he was town who thought that they were scum he shouldn't care so much that they're scumreading him?

How is this defensive? I'm attacking the person who I think is scum's wild vote on me.

[Inferno390]

Also more recently and largely the nail in the coffin for me: I can't see a newer player seeing me and sunlit diamond as SvS.

Like if I were newer town who thought that I was scum I would think that Sunlit diamond is town 100% of the time. It doesn't really make sense that he thinks that I'm spending all this time buttering her up unless he thinks that it's next level play but he's given no indication that he thinks it's next level play, he just seems to think at face value that's what it looks like. And I can't believe that coming from newbtown. There's a very clear read through that I'm scum and that I'm kissing up to sunlit to get her on my side, there's really no read through I can think of that explains how he thinks that we're SvS and it feels like he's just looking for people to call scum.

VOTE: Inferno

I think I'm done, that's the lynch today.

And here, I don't take it at face value. If I ere taking your buttering up as it was, I wouldn't be suspect of Dia. The fact that I do suspect Dia indicates that I'm thinking it's next level play, and that this is a scumteam trying to scumtalk and agreeing on my lynch. But that interpretatin is based on the entire exchange that happens between you and Dia from the moment you replaced in, which feels odd to me in it's own right.

[Inferno390]

Well, my first thing is that this doesn't make any sense. The second post you quoted was me just reiterating what happened, and while the first quote does seem a little showy, it was also the first scumread of the game, and I was just trying to throw around theory and make discussion. So I'm not really getting how you can take this and turn it into a scumtell.

I consider this a scumtell and I think it's very accurate in general. Right now you're disagreeing that I would use this as a scumtell: if I find examples of me pushing on people for similar things does that suffice?

You say I'm waffling with Sunset, but sunset has posted very little and has been waffling herself at the point of this post. doesn't it make sense for me to be unsure on how to place her?

I agree that you would be unsure on how to place her but you do conduct yourself differently in terms of how you deal with her than anyone else in the game and it stuck out like a sore thumb in terms of the read.
It's not that it can't come from town who happens to be treating Sunset differently but it was discordant and it felt possible that it was discordant because she was your scumbuddy.

I don't understand how this is weird at all. I'm literally just trying to interpret sunset's post here.

It is objectively a strange thing to bring up and I think if you ask other people in the game they'll agree with me. I wouldn't even call it specifically scum leaning, just weird.

I've been calling sheep scum for most of the game. So how can I be uncomfortable with calling him scummy?

This is again something you're going to have to go with as something that I think is a tell that you may disagree with. Even once or twice in the game using that phrasing triggers me. I can also find examples of me pushing others for this.

How is this defensive? I'm attacking the person who I think is scum's wild vote on me.

I think that you're objectively defensive here even if it doesn't make you scum. I now understand the dynamic between you and sheep better and read it as you just generally being mad at him.

1) Yes.
2-3) Okay.
4-5) Makes sense.

And now everything is thrown on it's head. Because you just took everything you posted to make me look really scummy and turned it into I might be town. This looks somewhat like backpeadaling and somewhat like adjusting your read, and I'm so confused now that I don't know what my read on anyone is anymore.
UNVOTE:

[Inferno390]

But what makes me believe you’re not scum saying that

See, I have this problem too. When a person quotes themselves as tow nover and over gain, I immeadiately lean scum on them. Because it's an AfR, and that drives me crazy.

[Inferno390]

I honestly think Red is the best lynch at this point. I don't think we've actually seen him contribute anything to town.
Beyond that, Uzi, Creature, and Sunset are in the same boat. Of course, Sunset will probably be replaced, but still.

[Inferno390]

I am generally happy with your non-Redflavor pool and would like to lynch there

You mean from Uzi, Creature, or Sunset? What are your reads on them?

[Inferno390]

VOTE: Uzi

I'm not comfortable with Uzi at all. He hasn't really posted any reads or really anything readable, and his move to get the Saul slot lynched seems way too opportunistic. I feel like he could definitely be using his role as IC as cover to avoid posting anything that actually helps town.

[Inferno390]

On the other hand, I'm still fairly certain that Red is scum, because he was also very opportunistic with the Saul slot, and with him replacing out, I think he's now floundering because the one place he's been putting all his pressure just replaced out, so his wagon fell completely apart.
I'm going to hedge a few bets on a Red/Uzi wagon and see where that goes.

[Inferno390]

Red's progression (or lack thereof) makes no sense to me.
#830 doesn't even make any sense, because what Saul said has no bearing on RC's play.

I definitely feel like Sando's read is pockmarked with a lot of little misrepresentations on me in order to scumread me.
#478 was me questioning both my reads on Saul and Red, because what I thought was scumhunting from Red was actually just him asking a lot of questions and not giving us any real reads. So it looked like Red tying to force a mislynch on Saul.
#533 was me misreading the votecount and makinga calculation on the votecount from there. that's hardly AI, and you're totally taking the quote to make that scummy out of context, where sheep was constantly responding to posts in a way that he wasn't reading posts AT ALL. Which does imply a difference from what I did.
#675 is just NAI.
#220 is more of me going after sheep because the series of posts felt contradictory to me, not because of who said aggressiveness. And if someone had mentioned that Sunset has said as much, I would've said "okay, but these two posts don't make any sense together."
I've explained my reasoning on #617 over and over again, so I'm not going into it here. But this is pretty blatant misrepresentation.

I feel like there's a lot of stuff in his reads on everyone else too, but I'll get to that in a sec.

[Inferno390]

I feel like the meta stuff is just really hurting the game at this point, so I'm just going to point out that that game ended 2 months ago and I was only in the first day, I learned a lot on how to play better from that game, I've been away from the site for a while, and I have another game to read my meta off of which no one is even considering.

[Inferno390]

I'm very uncomfortable with Sando's reads on everyone else too. Perhaps it's just an older way of playing, but to me it seems very misrepresentative of everyone in the game so far.

[Inferno390]

Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.

Has it occurred to you that the derptunneling is being done by floundering scum?
That's why I'm putting my bets on LUV/Red team. It looks like they were trying to indirectly push a lynch on Saul, but when he replaced out, suddenly any momentum they had on you fell apart, because you were active and doing towny things.

I really want Rd lynched, but LUV is a close second for me.

[Inferno390]

I also agree that there's nothing behind Red's tunnel, which is why I'm pushing him so hard as scum.
I honestly think that RC's vote on herself is NAI, because there's scum gambits on this, there's town reasons for doing this, so it all becomes a big game of WIFOM. Which is exactly what scum wants at this point D1, which would explain why Red brought it up if he's scum. If that's not the reason why, I think it's just trying to reach for a reason to get RC lynched, which doesn't make me fee any better about the situation.

[Inferno390]

I thought his first self vote was a gambit but there’s no way town would do it twice when there first one did nothing.

Especially since the second one was L-1

This is a good point.

[Inferno390]

@Sunlit I could use a voice of sanity to talk to while I'm still in this game.

I'll be your voice of reason, RC!

Same goes to LUV who hasn't given any sort of explanation for why I am scum.

Because you've gone after him for IC and threatened to report him to "PP" (I'm not sure who/what this is), and I think you're misinterpreting his words to be in the worst possible light. Yes, you could read it as saying that Inferno should ignore everything that you've done since entering, but that's the worst possible interpretation. You could also interpret it as saying that actions of player Saul was scummy and that there's nothing that you as his replacement can do to change the fact that those actions were scummy. I did not go into this because I'm not in the business of defending another player and giving them arguments, and I wanted LUV to answer that, thankfully he has now and we can read into that what we will.

Fine, Saul played scummy.
But he also had literally 11 posts and site flaked. And we should not lynch a replacement based on what the person who he replaced did with that little information to go off of.
And looking at Uzi's post that you're referring too, it's really hard to read that as just RC can't make Saul's play less scummy. It reads a lot more as Saul was scummy, so no matter what RC does, you should read him as scummy. Which is bad logic and bad IC advice.
This defense especially makes so sense due to the fact that taken in context, Uzi's post as in direct response to me rethinking my position on Saul and saying that was should at least try and read RC before we lynch her with basically no information.
Which turn's Uzi's post into "If you think Saul was scum, then there's no way RC can be town, no matter what he does, so let's just lynch him."
So I don't really understand how you can come up with this other interpretation.

I'm now 99% sure that scum lies between Red/Uzi/Sando.

Sando comes off as incredibly arrogant because he's an older player, despite the fact that he hasn't played for 5 years. I also still hold by his wall on me and his attacks on RC are misrepresentation and weak, as anyone who reads the game in context can easily see.
Uzi was trying to push Saul's lynch way too hard for the fact that he actually has not given a read this game. Like he's said "here's my readlist!" But he never actually gave reasons why? And then his indirect pushes on Saul were far too hard and opportunistic for the circumstances. I mean, if Uzi thought he was scummy, why not just vote the guy?
Red is just obviously floundering scum. I really don't see a reason that he should have kept his vote on RC, and he never had a reason to keep his vote on RC, and now he's just looking for reasons to keep his vote on RC.
I'm also going to say now that AtE is very much NAI. In fact, the wiki itself says that all factions end up using it at some point. So if you're reading RC as scum because of some previous AtE, stop now. Because that's bad play.

RC is definitely falling into the hole that I was, where he's getting fed up with Red, and then with Sando coming in and basically shoving RC into the scum position. He is really reading town at this point.

Red, if you are town, you need to stop hovering over RC RIGHT NOW. Because it's obvious from the way you've played the game so far that you've got no reasons to be reading him as scum. all you're doing at this point is sheeping Uzi and Sando's wagon without any real reads of your own. And the confibias is so bad it's scummy.

[Inferno390]

I can agree that LUV is probably scum.
But if that's true, who's his partner?

My other reads in terms of scum are Sando and Red, but since you don't agree with that, RC, do you have any alternatives or thoughts on this?

[Inferno390]

RC, why are you reading creature as scum again? Because he usually provides more town input?
So there is some agreement that Red is scummy. LUV is just MORE scummy. Right?

[Inferno390]

@RC

RC, why are you reading creature as scum again? Because he usually provides more town input?
So there is some agreement that Red is scummy. LUV is just MORE scummy. Right?

[Inferno390]

This feels like misrepresentation or an effort to make reasonable progression look unreasonable.

You made the comment about his town-meta very, very early, #68. From there it wasn't until #536 that you say anything scum-related about Inferno (so yeah, my original post said 545, I missed this one liner in original read-through). Point stands, you went a long, long time with an incredibly strong meta read that based on Inferno's actions was just not reasonable. What about that is "reasonable progression"?

Wasn't there about 100 posts between Sunlit's last few statements about my meta and #536? I think that that would be plenty of time to rethink a read on a person, especially when it's based on meta.
I would definitely not call it a "incredibly strong meta read" between those two points.
I also think your meta read is bull. Especially since I have two metas, which I've mentioned over and over.

[Inferno390]

Observation after reading page 35-36: To my understanding, SEs have no obligation to do anything other than play the game. This entire argument is weird.

Right, but SE's aren't supposed to be screwing with the newbies by giving them bad play advice. That's what RC thinks LUV is doing. Which I have to agree a little bit on.

[Inferno390]

Ok I read that as a very soft push at the time, but subsequent play says that that's your style, so I can buy that. I'm still not sure how we got into the mid 500s before you walked back from the meta read. As I said in my post, the read on you was purely on this one thread, but I stand by the idea that Inferno was meta-town based on Deco was not reasonable.

I am so sick of everyone basing this entire game on my previous meta.
I was off the site for like 4 months since I replaced out of that game. I also have 2 games under my belt, replaced out of or not, not 1. And I learned a few things from previous games that I'm trying to apply here. And finally, this isn't Deco Murders, where I had Ty tearing every single argument I had apart. This is a completely different game, here I haven't actually had anyone actually challenge everything I say, and I haven't gotten into a heated 1v1 with anyone like the one with Ty. (And don't say sheep, because that whole mess was different than Ty, and everyone here can agree with that.) Plus, I'm a wild and unpredictable newbie. So my "meta" can change. And like half the people that have "read" Deco Murders have said that I'm ithin my meta, and half have said I'm not. So it's obvious that my "meta" is not a good yardstick for my towniness in this game.

So will everyone please stop talking about my meta and how it makes me/others town/scum? Because all it's doing is clogging up thread and bringing up bad accusations, and we need to focus on other things here. Like the fact that we have only a couple of days until deadline.

[Inferno390]

It's coming from a place of RC started the case against LUV about how ICs are meant to act (that was moral superiority RC, not whatever you think I was doing), and as such if he wants to question the established norms of play, then his should be examined as well.

RC is also using his experience position as an appeal to authority, and if he wants to do that then I'm going to point out where that is not helpful to newbie players, including myself.

Not sure where I said SEs were obligated to play a certain way?

hence SEs are asked and ICs forced to be very careful with them

I feel like that if anyone is using an AtA, it'd be you, Sando. In fact, if you could point me to some places where RC has actually used AtA, I'd much appreciate it.

[Inferno390]

Inferno, I'm torn.

A) That 944 is a totally reasonable request and rings true, tonally, for someone who just wants to leave an argument behind and focus on the future.

B) It makes my brain hurt that

you specifically

are asking us to set aside meta. To make an UTTERLY ironic reference to meta: this request does not ring true for the guy who went in circles quoting definitions and rules and very specific gambits. While I can see you setting aside the specific links to the Wiki, I'm not sure if what is apparently a rules-driven personality can change so completely. Can you talk to me a bit about that?

Yeah, sure.
See, I gave some serious consideration to Deco Muderes before I ende up replacing out, and I realized that very quickly taht I was leaning way too hard on the wiki and Fallacy terms and gambits and such. Part of that was becasue I'd stumbled across the wiki why doing some research based out of another site, and I spent about a year reading up on the game, just trying to get a feel for how to play. I think that's why when I first actually came to the site, I played so heavily on the wiki.
But several months have passed since Deco Murders and now, and I feel like my play has eveolved to trying to read by interaction rather than by the gambit and fallacy. I've definitely moved away from quoting the wiki like was so bad in the Deco murders, if this game is any indication. I just think that trying to read people based on logical fallacy alone is not a smart way to play, and I'm working toward changing that.
That being said, I don't think that a little dip into meta in the first day or two or real time play is entirely a bad thing. In fact, it can be good for an early read or two. But this late, when we're so close to deadline, trying to read meta and arguing about who's interpretation of the meta is correct is just hurting town.
Don't get me wrong; I'm defintely not afraid to get down and dirty, return to the wiki on occasional instances, and make some mistakes. But I do want to transition away from what you see as a rule-based play towards playing more based on analyzing the interactions between players, how they try and play toward a town win, etc. Becasue the way I played at Deco Mudrers, I think, only hurt me, and I want to get better.

[Inferno390]

Sando you're conflating me actually appealing to authority with me talking like I have authority. Which I feel like I do, but obviously that view of myself doesn't resonate well with you.

I agree with this for sure.

[Inferno390]

I feel like that if anyone is using an AtA, it'd be you, Sando.

I've shown you mine Inferno, time for you to show me yours.

I'm not going to quote any posts, becasue I don't have any posts like the ones you used for RC, Sando. BUt you're ISO strikes me very hard as arrogant, like you're an older, experienced player, and so obviously you're going to swing this entire game in town's favor. Which just judging by your reads, you're definitely not going to. The arrogance also hits hard because you're constantly bashing on RC's place in this game. You've definitely used AtP more than once on him, and you're bascially putting yourself in a position of superiority over him.

When this shouldn't be the case at all. If it's been around 5 years since you last played here, you're rusty, you aren't up to speed on the meta, and you have no business telling RC that he doesn't know what he's talking about as a far more active player than you. If anything, you should be trying to take a few pointers from the game so far and try to et your game back online and adjust your playstyle to the meta.

So I defintely feel likee your flaunting your seniority around quite a bit in an attept to get creds over RC, which, for me, would be AtA.

[Inferno390]

So will everyone please stop talking about my meta and how it makes me/others town/scum?

No.

Firstly, I think since me and RC joining posts where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.

Secondly, Sunlit brought it up and defended it in what I at least thought was a fairly ridiculous manner. At that point you are simply evidence to be pointed to, and if that makes you uncomfortable, tough luck. It's not about you at that point, it's a line of questioning from me (and others potentially) directed at another player in an attempt to determine alignment. That's the game...deal with it. I'm not going to ignore a line of questioning and investigation

just because you feel your meta has changed, which was the entire point of my line of questioning in the first place!

Lastly, given you're currently insistent on referencing my "old-school" play constantly, and using it as a basis for accusing me of AtA...get over yourself. You're complaining about taking a 4 month break and people still referencing your previous play...you must understand how hypocritical that looks when the next breath (it was actually a breath or two before but still...):

Sando comes off as incredibly arrogant because he's an older player, despite the fact that he hasn't played for 5 years.

This is just such terrible misrepresentation I don't even know where to begin.

[Inferno390]

First off, you have used my meta to attack me, because you did it in your very first wall. So you've used it to attack me and then to attack Sunlit, both times highly objectionable.
Second, I don't want everyone to stop talking about it because they're attacking me, I want them to stop because arguing over meta at this point is just hurting town.
Third, I'm not meta-reading you at all to come to my conclusions on you. Your old school play is not the reason you come off as arrogant. So it's a different situation, so don't try to compare it.

[Inferno390]

First off, you have used my meta to attack me, because you did it in your very first wall. So you've used it to attack me and then to attack Sunlit, both times highly objectionable.

My wall of text against you was ~475 words (including quotes), of that,

here's where I used your meta to attack you

:

Overall there’s a clear pattern of anti-town actions in terms of claims etc, and there’s been some very consistent misrepresentations going on, mostly of Sheep but also of some others.

As for the meta read, I’d agree with RC that this is a fairly wild divergence from the linked game.

How Sunlit can think otherwise blows my mind at this point, but more on that later!

But yeah, I'm the one misrepresenting here... It was an entire sentence, which was EXACTLY what I said in my last post that you're now responding to:

Firstly, I think since me and RC joining posts where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it,

no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.

Literally one sentence Inferno, one...sentence.

LIAR!


LIARRRRRRRR!

(I really wish I knew how to add pictures to my posts, because I would totally add one of Miracle Max's wife right here.)

[Inferno390]

Tell me why Sando's a liar, Inferno.

Okay, that was obviously not a tactful way to put that... I apologize for any sudden rage due to that post.
I was trying to joke around a little bit when I made that point, which obviously felt flat. A better way to put that whole thought process is that Sando had an obvious, major contradiction in that post (saying that no one had attacked me with my meta, and then pointing out where he attacked me with my meta.) So no matter how Sando spins it, I have been attacked with my meta, so his claim that I haven't been is just not true.
That being said, I highly doubt this is a scumslip (it's just way too blatant). But I do think Sando should definitely take a step back and re-evaluate how he's looking at and playing the game, because that kind of contradiction is just bad. Not scummy bad, straight out bad.

Oh I almost forgot..

Inferno, why is opportunism alignment indicative?

Opportunism in the sense of trying to get scummy town lynched without actually voting yourself, by posting in a way to force the wagon on into lynching, is scummy. Which is what I think you were doing. There was no real case from either Red or you on Saul. You just pushed his wagon really hard without adding the weight of your vote. Town would add his vote and at least give us his reads if they were going to indirectly push a slot.

Omg rc is kinda obvious mafia but why innocent LUV is at L-2?
Also I would say it's thenavneet is second mafia but they never spoke

There is much wrong with this post. RC is not obviscum, and Red just calling Saul's slot over and over again, really looks like AfR. Just claiming LUV to be innocent, without giving us any real opinion on his stringing up, looks like scum defending scum. And Red has literally no basis for calling naveet scum.

Towniest to wolfiest

In case I die

In case you die? You have literally 1 vote on you. Unless you're talking about an NK, which is unlikely for you.

[Inferno390]

So no matter how Sando spins it, I have been attacked with my meta, so his claim that I haven't been is just not true.

The spin is exactly what I wrote, that since me and RC made single sentence comments about it, you haven't been attacked for it.

Just read that again, because you actually have to read the entire sentence, not just the last 6 words. I made zero, nada, nil, contradiction. I've pointed that out to you subsequently. You're flat out wrong and you continue to push this despite it being shown to you, repeatedly. Here's the original sentence:

Firstly, I think

since me and RC joining posts

where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.

This was pointed out to you in 978 that English 101 says you're wrong here. Now you're trying to walk it back without admitting this, saying that it wasn't a scum motivated slip by me. I didn't slip, I was factually correct.

You're desperately trying to undermine anyone that ever attacks you, myself included. You've flailed at everyone who's ever even looked your way. You've been parroting RC who has blithely stated you're 100% town in said flailing and in 1001 is desperately trying to give you a pass on this utter bullshit that you're spouting here. You've now decided that trying to make me look scummy isn't going to work, so you're just going to try and undermine my character by saying I'm old-school arrogant and that I'm "straight out bad".

You're scum, with RC.

There is no way you can spin this where what did not happen was that you said

no one attacked me with my meta and then said this is where I attacked you with my meta.

I'm definitely not desperately "tying to undermine anyone that ever attacks" me. I've responded to each person who attacks me point by point. Not what I would call desperate.
I have not been parroting RC, in fact, my reads on Uzi were developing before RC ever got to this game.

This feels like a huge attack on my playstyle, and incredibly scummy to me.


P-edit:
Reading thorugh what has been posted:
I'm continuing to get scummy vibes from Sando. He's brushing off everything RC says by saying he's using AtA, which is anything but true. And I'm definitely seeing major representation from Sando going on. He's tearing apart anyone who questions his play by attacking the playstyle rather than refuting the points themselves.
And honestly, all it's doing is dragging the game down, so if you're town Sando (which I'm starting to doubt) actually shut your mouth and stop posting for a while. Because all you're doing is making this game impossible to play.
Naveet's progression makes no sense. He went from "risk-adverse approach" to "you aren't being helpful to town" as reason to lynch?
#1045 is really blatant misrepresentation of what I said in #1028. There was no walking back on scumreads at all. I just said that Sando needed to take a major second look at the way he's approaching the game, because that kind of self-contradiction is just poor play. I'm not trying to make Sando look bad at all. I'm just saying that the way he has approached this game is poor, and what happened there shows that.
Naveet, while I agree that RC's posts have definitely gone downhill in quality, do you not think that it's possible that it stems from a combination of LUV and Red's derp tunnel combined with Sando blatantly attacking his play? Because it only got as bad as it did when Sando replaced in, and he ahs definitely interacted with other members of the game in a reasonable way.
I definitely feel like Naveet's list of RC's play is a little bit out of context.

All in all, I can see the reasoning behind Naveet looking at a RC lynch. But I still think that this is the wrong play. If RC flips town likes he says, that tells us what? That LUV and Red had literally no reason to be wagoning him in the manner they are? Because we already know that. And it makes me confirmed town for Sando. And if he flips scum (which we're all pretty sure he's not)? Well, I get lynched tomorrow (which I will say now is very much wrong), and two days from now you'll have no idea whatsoever who RC's partner was. Plus we'll get the whole "I told you so" crap from Sando and he'll bring the game down on our heads.
On the other hand, If we lynch LUV and he flips scum, we an say with rather reasonable certianity that Red is scum by game interaction so far. And if he flips town, that gives us plenty of information to work off of with RC tommorrow.
NOw, I want to propose a third option. Let's lynch Red. His play has been a lot like LUV's in terms of the Saul slot, but worse. And if he flips scum, LUV is probably his partner. And if he flips town, then we can start talking about Avi and some of the other interactions based on Red's play today, which no one has thought to look at yet.

Avi, you are on the LUV wagon, right?

[Inferno390]

Inferno:

I have been voting for RC’s slot for the longest time now. You even accused me of putting him to L-1 if I’m recalling correctly.

VOTE: SaulJoker

VOTE: SaulJoker

L-1 on Saul.
Hmm. It's too early to hammer. 5 days is still plenty of time to do some more hunting.
DIa, what are your thoughts on Sheep and I and our 1v1? I've noticed you haven't given your opinion on any of that for a bit.

Yep. I’m remembering right.

Not really sure what you’re talking about then Inferno.

I must've missed vote in your ISO. Sorry, I meant to respond to this earlier, but a certain argument got in the way.
That being said, I still think that your reads on him were opportunistic as explained previously, and I'm still reading you as scum. I've done a little deliberation on how to make that not sound like scum bullshit, but I've decided that there's no way to do that. So I'm just going to say that.
Keeping that in mind, I think that how I'm reading you is pointless now. But I'll get to that below.

There is no way you can spin this where what did not happen was that you said no one attacked me with my meta and then said this is where I attacked you with my meta.

You're either going all in on this misrep or you don't understand simple english. I never, ever, ever, said that no-one had

ever

attacked you with your meta, I said that no-one had attacked you SINCE mine and RC entry posts.

How is this not obvious to you?

Okay, that's a misread of the post on my part. Mea culpa.

Honest to goodness, town is at a total deadlock over LUV lynch vs. RC lynch. Ad the only way to resolve this is to provide a third option that no one will like, but everyone will agree on.
So I say we lynch Red. I feel that he has been very scummy in is tunnel on RC and Saul, an hasn't actually provided reads. I've seen several people say that they could agree on a Red lynch, so I think that this is probably the best middle ground for anybosy. And at this point, a mislynch will be better than no lynch at all.
Does that sound reasonable?

[Inferno390]

Sando, I have a question. Do you have any relatives of different political affiliations than you?

I see where this is going and i don't like it. Outside of the actual game of course. In game perspective it just looks like the RC Sando quarrel. Which is of course, Sando won't back down and RC is tired of his play.

[Inferno390]

Yeah, Red's still reaching for reasons to get RC lynched. If there was any chance of a wagon forming on him, I would actually be moving my vote right about now, but I'm not about to force us into a no-lynch situation.

[Inferno390]

Navneet has, for the record, been online for a lot of portions of the day without posting which is potentially them posting in scum PT

Does scum even have daytalk in this setup?

[Inferno390]

Can we please just lynch Red? I think that his play has been far less helpful to town than either Uzi or RC at this point.
And, oh my gosh, I cannot believe that we're leaving this up to Sunlit, who has obviously not been comfortable with either lynch.

[Inferno390]

Like, fricking honestly, based on the way the end of this day goes, it doesn't matter which one of these two is lynched, scum is going to find a way to spin it to get a mislynch tomorrow. Because that's how high tensions are over this entire exchange. And Red's tunnel has just gotten way too scummy to let lie. So let's just lynch him and not give scum the opportunity to turn D1 into a way to win the game.

[Inferno390]

Just because you can lynch every cycle doesn't mean you should lynch every cycle.

Still, unless it's MyLo with no PR available, nolynching will harm town.

Right. Most of the time, going into night without a lynch is basically just handing that day to scum. Town gets nothing out of the day, and scum gets a free NK. Basically we're going back into D1, but with one less player (and maybe even 1 less PR).
I definitely feel like you don't want any of the lynches to go through, Uzi, becasue any of the viable lynches at this point will hurt you based on the way D1 played out. And the only reason I can think of why they would hurt you is if you were scum.
I mean, it obviously hurts scum if you're lynched, and if you actually thought that RC was scum, you'd be pushing him a lot harder, becasue the only way that RC's flip hurts you is if he flips town.
The only other lynch that is anywhere near viable at this point is Red, and you refuse to consider that. In fact, you seem very intent on only getting people who have been inactive lynched.
I think that Red flipping scum would definitely hurt you because you would be unable to throw up a good attack on RC tomorrow, because you two's tunneling on him would be thrown into a really bad light. And if he flips town, you'd be back in the same boat you're in right now.

I can't see the same play if you were town.

[Inferno390]

Then I say lynch Red. We can't hedge all our bets on Dia being back before deadline. If he flips town, I'll take the hit for suggesting it, but I really doubt he's going to. I'm 99% sure he's scum.

[Inferno390]

Sando or Naveet?

[Inferno390]

Okay, giving RC's ISO a reread. Before I say anything else, I have not been entirely comfortable with RC's play this whole game, but I have been seeing what I felt like was scummier behavior from other players. And here's what I'm seeing:
The flack that RC has been attacking Uzi from the start is simply not true. Post #583 makes that clear. RC's reads on Uzi happened over time.
RC's attack on me and then the sudden reverse of read on me is pinging me again. Originally, it felt towny. But now it feels like RC attacked me, and then used my 1v1 with sheep to hide from my responses. When it became obvious that that wasn't going to work, he backpeadaled pretty fast, and his explanations for his original reads (#775), don't seem that legit. IT just eels like he's taking what was a major attack and then reskinning so it doesn't look like it's actually that aggressive.
I'm also not buying the "aggressively attacking Inferno as a reaction test" thing. Maybe that's residue from Deco Murders, but that kind of attack, then backing so far off and calling it a reaction test pings me like crazy.
The repeated insistence that RC is town from RC looks a lot like AfR.
The "shades of gray" thing that RC says pings me a lot too.
#768 is the first actual mention of LUV as scum. I can see the natural progression here.
The first self-vote is scummy and looks like a gambit to me. The second does not. Why would you do it twice if you're scum? That just defeats the whole point.
I do think the wagon from Red is bull.
Not comfortable with #793 either.
RC is, in my opinion, trying too hard to get townread. It's got a lot of AfR and AtE mixed into it too.
Not seeing the progression on Avi in post#797.
While the second self-vote itself is not scummy, the post that it is in is.
Post #841 has some majorly good points against Uzi. I'm sorry, but it's true.
I'm feeling a lot of the fight between RC vs Sando is a lot coming from Sando attacking RC's play rather than finding reasons to actually read him.
Which makes me feel like a lot of the bad pay we've seen is actually a player getting increasingly frustrated from being scumread for what seems to be no reason at all. And on most fronts, I agree. Has any actually thought to read RC's ISo and make some notes? Judging by the way D1 has gone, I seriously doubt it.
RC has actually been trying to read people in my opinion. And force some actual reads from creature and red.
#887 onwards really reads desperate town. And there is definite, real scumhunting going on.
If RC is scum and is just trying to shade Sando's attacks on him as AtP, he's doing a really good job. Because that's literally what's happening.
RC does make some good points about Naveet's first reads.
You cannot read through RC's read against Uzi without it making sense. It just doesn't happen.

I mean all taken together, RC's play early after his replacement was not great. But I honestly thin that this huge 1v1 that he's been in has ironically brought the best out of his ISO. Because it reads "frustrated, desperate town with real reads." Which is a really hard playstyle to make plausible.
Plus, RC's wagon is not a good indicator of whether or not he's actually town , because Red is a derptunnel, and Uzi has basically ignored him.
RC just doesn't read scum. She reads town. and that's all there is to it.

[Inferno390]

And, we're all completely screwed.
Sunlit's read on me has no natural progression as far as I can see. I don't like that.

[Inferno390]

And I arrive second. My thoughts:
LUV must die. VOTE: LUV
Wary of Sunlit for sure. That last little bit of interaction between RC and him is really pinging me. Definitely looking at Sunlit's ISO again today.
As a fair warning to Red: You do what you did D1 again D2, I'm going to lead a policy lynch on you D3. Because two derptunnels in a row is not okay.
Do Kill LUV today, but don't do the claim thing. Because if scum is going to be able to determine which ones are real and which ones are fake.
Despite anything RC might have said, no one who voted LUV is conftown.

Readlist:
Naveet, Avi
Creature
Sando
Red, Sunlit
LUV

My lynchpool, if this LUV thing for some reason doesn't go right through, is LUV, Sunlit, and Red.

[Inferno390]

Though I don't know how Doc saves are treated by the mods here. On a different site that I play on, if a Doc saves someone on the night that they are attacked, it gets announced.

I don't think they do that here.

MVP DOC

Or jailkeepr.

I'm kind of hoping it's doc though, becasue a doc claim along with whose saved is double confirmed town, while Jailkeeper can both save from NK and prevent ability. Which can leave a lot more room for interpreting what actually happened at night.
I think. That is what jailkeeper does, right?

VOTE: LUV

I've never seen a Doc save announced here.

Why do you townread navneet, inferno?

Because Naveet replaced in, and iimeadiately started trying to sort town from scum, applying reads, and figuring out what needed to happen to help town the most. While I'm still very much not happy about RC's lynch, I do think that a lot of valuable information was gained from it and the interactions revolving around it.
Don't let my readlist fool you though. I'm going to ISO Naveet jsut as hard as I ISO everyone else. "Leave no stone unturned." Besides, to say that my reads on everyone are 100% percent accurate at this point would be pretty stupid.

[Inferno390]

Also I am not a huge fan of the LUV speed lynch. RC was 100% sure they would flip scum but just because RC flipped town doesn't mean we should treat their word as gospel.

RedFlavor's vote here especially is a bit sus to me as they were convinced RC was scum at end of D1 and now are seemingly piggybacking off of RC's last words.

I guess that this is a reasonable point, but honestly, I'm having a really hard time not reading LUV as scum. It really looks like, thanks to RC's flip, that LUV was trying to force a lynch on a VT that was just playing really bad, and then when RC replaced in, he was trying to force the wagon to stay alive.

I definitely see where the Red sus is coming from, especially since he was defending LUV pretty hard D1.

Let's run LUV up to L-1 for now, but no one hammer yet. Let's have a little more interaction today and see if we can dig up a scumbuddy for him.

[Inferno390]

Also I am not a huge fan of the LUV speed lynch. RC was 100% sure they would flip scum but just because RC flipped town doesn't mean we should treat their word as gospel.

RedFlavor's vote here especially is a bit sus to me as they were convinced RC was scum at end of D1 and now are seemingly piggybacking off of RC's last words.

This.

Pre-flip associations are almost always a bad idea guys. They require assumptions about knowledge that you don't actually have, which lead to very faulty reasoning and mistaken beliefs about how likely a given player actually is to be scum.

I have no room to talk though and knew this was coming.

I don't understand why this is a pre-flip association. Red was derptunneling RC. RC flipped town. Red immediately started tunneling you at the start of D2, which was obviously going to be the lynch today. SO how is it pre-flip association?
I feel like you brought this up as an attempt to try and confuse town on how we should read you compared to RC's posts. Which is both something I think scum IC would do, and is not convincing at all. I could read you as scum without your interaction with RC. RC just happened to be the one who brought why you were scummy to a head.

Well I’m going to be a bit blunt. I think my lynch here practically hands scum the game. Especially if you and Creature are town.

This feels like a major cross between AtE and AtA. Also, if LUV flips scum, Sunlit and Creature immeadiately go on my radar, because this loks like scum shading a buddy as town.

Im thinking that if luv is scum, people voting luv must be town because it was 4vs4
I also think that sando is town because I tr him
you looked confused but if you were scum you would vote RC and end the day but that would be suspicious, but I dont think that's the case
so its navneet


also if luv wasnt scum, scum could jump to luv wagon end be less suspicious but that never happened

Not completely comfortable with Red's logic here.
So what you're saying is that both of the scum were on RC's wagon, so scum has to be between Sando and Naveet, right? I feel like there's too many flaws with that. Sunlit could have been scum trying to drag us into a no-lynch becasue eitehr lynch was bad for him, or creature or Avi could have wagoned on LUV to clear themselves for D3.
Just saying you townread Sando is not enough. Why exactly do you townread him?
Sunlit was not confused. He just didn't like either wagon. And the best thing for scum day one in a scum!LUV world would have been a no-lynch. The second best thing for Sunlit!scum would have been to lynch LUV, because that would have cleared him for D2. The worst thing for scum at that point was RC's lynch. We were obviously heading for a no lynch, and Sunlit claims he would have voted LUV given the opportunity. So Sunlit cannot be ruled out yet.
Obviously, you've completely ruled yourself out, but that looks like indirect shading as town to me.
I feel like you're trying to find ground for a Naveet mislynch D3. But on the other hand, this is the most thought out thing we've gotten from you this game. So I'm not sure how to look at this.
If LUV was scum, his buddy could hammer and try and cruise for the rest of the game though, right? So I feel like a scum jump to LUV's wagon at the point we were at would haveactually been pretty sus.

[Inferno390]

A pre-flip association is basically using evidence based on presumptions. A number of you are presuming that because RC flipped town, I must be scum.

I don’t think there are sufficient reasons to scum read me with or without my interactions with RC. I scum read his predecessor’s play. I was wrong about his predecessor’s play coming from scum. Both of these facts don’t make me scum.

I'm not presuming anything. I was reading you as scum long before RC flipped. so your "pre-flip association" call does not hold water with me.

What are you going to do Inferno when I flip town?

I ask because the way I see it, I think you’re going to either attempt to policy lynch Red or death tunnel Sunlight.

I've already said that if Red pays like he did D1, I'm going to get him policy lynched. That being said, if his play improves today and we get some real reads from him, that will not be the case any more.
Sunlit is pinging me right now based on the last few interactions between him and RC. Then again, Sando pinged me when he replaced in, Sheep pinged me the entire game, and RC pinged me when he replaced in. So I think you have no real way to predict what I'm going to do based on what happens today.

The worst thing for me as scum would’ve been a no-lynch. I’m the minority. I need to be able to push and drive mislynches to achieve my win-con.

Yeah, but what if that mislynch makes you look bad? Isn't that worse than no lynch at all, which gives no information to the town?
See, if I was scum, I would have rather had a no-lynch at that point rather than have someone's flip make me look bad enough to get me lynched.

That being said, don't turn this into a reason why you must be town then, because that's not what I'm saying at all. What iI'm saying is that that no lynch WAS the best for you based on the circumstances, because there was nothing else that could have been doen that didn't make you look scummy. And you said that you advocated a no-lynch D1.
I think that now that we haven't speedlynched you, you're trying to find a way o cloud town's judgement and discredit what actually went down in D1 in an attempt to draw the heat off of you. But it's not going to work. we are sticking to our guns. You are scum, and you will be lynched. The town has thus decreed.

"So it has been written! So let it be done!"

[Inferno390]

I'm stuck in terrible WIFOM on creature right now. LUV's calling creature out as town today is giving me real "bussing by bud so he doesn't get the lynch tomorrow." But since creature is not high on anyone's scumlist anyways, I'm also thinking that LUV knows his time is up and is trying to influence a mislynch on creature tomorrow.
Anyone want to shine some light on this?

[Inferno390]

Oh and since it's D2, I have to make a confession, guys.
I claim The Flying Pumpkin that Shoots Lazer Beams Out of Its Ass.
And you thought this was a newbie game.

[Inferno390]

I feel like there's good reasoning to what Sando has said. You did have 14 days to lynch the LUV wagon, but you didn't under the statement that you didn't like the lynch (which is reasonable.) From where I'm standing, I can very easily see you not have voting anyone and taking us into night without a lynch. So to say that it was unfair for RC to steal away your choice of vote from you is not true. The choice was hanging in front of you the entire time. You just chose not to make it.

I'm also not happy with the reaction test thing. This is now the second time I've had a role in a reaction test, which I'm uncomfortable with as it is, and I feel like your claim to a reaction test is kind of weak.

[Inferno390]

Red's most recent post is really towny. REALLY towny. And it brought up points that others haven't even addressed yet. Definitely moving back up my readlist.

[Inferno390]

Yeah, I really doubt we're going to get more out of this day. Who wants to do teh honors?

[Inferno390]

That being said, no one actually hammer while I'm not on, because I have something to say regarding D3 before night kicks in. Just let us know you've got intent.

[Inferno390]

Because I don't want to out it too early.
I know that sounds stupid, but there is a lot of WIFOM and different stuff that could possibly come from what I'm going to say, and 1) I don't want to drag out this day any more than nessecary and 2) I don't want to accidentally derail the LUV wagon.

[Inferno390]

Awesome.

So I don't trust myself not to die tonight, so I want to say this before we go into night:
When LUV flips scum, if no one dies tonight, I am 90% sure that we need to lynch Sunlit tomorrow.
If someone dies tonight, Sunlit is conftown.
If LUV, by some sort of scum miracle, flips town, and no matter what happens, lynch Sunlit.

Crossing my fingers that I don't take the NK for this, but even if I do, town has gotten something to work off of tomorrow.
And there's a lot of WIFOM that can happen with this, I know. But I think that either getting a win or a conftown out of it is worth it, and it puts scum in a very awkward situation come night.

OK, take it away, Sando.

[Inferno390]

Again, I know that some of that sounds stupid, but it'll become a lot clearer based on what happens tonight, no matter if I die or not.

[Inferno390]

Well.
GG all!