Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[T-Bone]

This is T-Bone affirming that he now knows the game has started. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming.

[T-Bone]

Vote: Shirt Skirt

Let's just get that out of the way.

@Math re: #5....ummm obligatory "why are any of us here?"

But I assume you're asking in the context of 'T-Bone finds Normals boring, why would he pick this game?' and the answer for you is also incredibly boring. I was out with the flu for pretty much all of last week and just told my team I had no preference....and...here I am. I do appreciate the research you've done on me though, since I am the greatest* player in Team Mafia history.

I would like to caveat that I could be making all of that up....because

meta is trash

. I took the scum role in TM 2012...for example. A grand sample size of two.

@Bins Re: #248 HUMMM? Bins.

(*by average finish place, not skill level)

[T-Bone]

Not short for anything. It was the name of the wrestling character I made up for e-fedding, and then just also became my online identity, because I was an edgy teenager I guess.

[T-Bone]

Did you want even more bluster, Math? I'm not sure I can do less.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone silently wonders whether Mathdino actually cares about the answers to the questions he asks of everyone...because he doesn't appear to actually do...and in fact when T-Bone made sure to answer the very first question Mathdino asked in this game, Mathdino no sold him...leading T-Bone to conclude he is just asking questions to look busy.

[T-Bone]

Wait sorry...

"silently"

Pretend I typed none of that and just thought it, and ya'll somehow were made aware of those thoughts.

[T-Bone]

I'd just like a little openness from time to time if that's the game you're gonna play. I'm 99% certain I'm not the only person you've done this with in this game.

[T-Bone]

You're missing what I want to get at. I'll break it down in short.

a. I don't have a specific instance in mind other than my own. I'm playing the odds that if you've done it once, with the very first question you asked in the game, after doing some research to inform the question, you've done it with other players. And, for me personally, I don't care what conversations you do or don't pick up (outside of ones with me)
b. You want to see things from my perspective. Here is my perspective. When I took a look at the game for the first time, I groaned that we had made it to 10 pages. The first thing I did was check the activity, to see why we've gotten to that point. Maybe one player posted 100 times. You and Skirt each had 47 posts. Why did I do this? Because I know this format, Team Mafia, is especially ripe for spamposter type scum players. It is part of the reason (part, not entire, see LLD for a good estimate of what Skirt is) I put my vote there.
c. I'm not asking you to have a read on me, nor do I care what that read is. I care about processes though...and even though I do dismiss meta, I don't dismiss players who believe in it. And for me, it looked like you (sort of) went through the trouble of finding my tendencies in Team Mafia. Which tells me, this is important to you (if you're town). Thus, I expect these things to continue to be important to you, even if you encounter players going 'meta is trash' along the way. From my perspective, and from my brief interaction, that is all lacking. No, I don't expect some declaration of my alignment based off of one question and answer exchange. But, when you seem to put something behind it, I expect it to have a little more importance than 'lol T-Bone can be in the PoE pile'.
d. This is Team Mafia. We all have teams we go back to in some capacity. We are all following 5 games in some capacity. Some players are doing more than others. Still, it's not an excuse. I'll only buy it for so long before I start to wonder if it is just a front because that player is actually scum.

[T-Bone]

No, I am very pleased with both of your posting levels since I have entered the game.

[T-Bone]

D. Okay but I have been doing more than other people in this game. You can't simultaneously call me out for not paying as much attention as usual but also being overactive.

No that's not what I said.

You offered up that you are stretched thin because you are paying attention to five games. Yes, sure. So are the rest of us in some capacity.

[T-Bone]

I am altering the posting levels. Pray I do not alter them any further.

Spoiler: Very Important Message

[T-Bone]

Math, this is getting problematic. I'm not going to start a back and forth with you about it...and this isn't another 'meta is trash' thing. I really don't like how insistent you are in communicating with player(s) not in this game. I get why you might do it as town...but it is plenty clear why someone might do it as scum. This is my 'this specific thing is pinging me' post to alert other players though. It's not really aimed at you (despite being addressed to you, because it sounds better grammatically that way), so please carry on.

Edit: Oh and then Skirt does the same thing lololol...I don't know if he's mimicking Math on purpose or...

[T-Bone]

Math, my real final word tonight on the subject is this. I know why players who rely on meta do the questionable things they do. It just doesn't mean they get a pass if I feel the behavior is problematic from the in-game perspective.

[T-Bone]

Can I ask you (in good faith) why you feel it's problematic? This might be more for postgame but postgame is a long way away.

Basically, what you're doing (and what Skirt is doing on a 10x worse level) is creating interactions that are easily faked. I understand why you might do these as town, as you might legitimately grasp for these things...but...knowing this, you can easily fake this as scum. And I know meta-players like to use the 'but I wouldn't do this as scum defense'...and I'm not interested in would/wouldn't of someone's playstyle. You did initially sort me because I would probably take a town role, for example.

SNIP

I thought Shea told me the exact same thing about Dino, but I can't find it anywhere. If I could find it, that would make me feel pretty good about you.
Additionally, Shea thinks Dino is pushing UCV for reasons UCV usually gets mislynched for. Do you have any thoughts about that?

I was townreading Dino, but now I'm starting to doubt that read.

I haven't decided yet whether I feel his tone is hollow or not. I'm leaning towards genuine, because Skirt is trying to do a lot of the same things, and he is way more hollow in his convictions. So, I don't know if that is comparison bias or what.

But like, you're feeling off about Dino. Does it bother you that Skirt is mimicking his approach in a lot of ways? Let's back up...do you see that at all?

[T-Bone]

SNIP

KMD thinks that:
- He thinks LLD's scumstrat would be to drive a wedge between me and skirt by pocketing me and tunneling him due to intimidation of a possible townbloc.
- He thinks there's one scum in {skirt, LLD}. He had an issue with how both of them so strongly locktowned me and then started getting in tons of 1 on 1 conversations with me (basically trying to pocket me). He doesn't however think LLD would ever open like that against a scumbuddy skirt.

I'm actually inclined to agree with one scum in skirt/LLD.

SNIP

This makes no sense. Full stop. Skirt, I don't mean to offend....but who sits up at night worried about Skirt? He doesn't have a reputation for being a quality player, and his playstyle is going to make people not want to listen to him initially. Of all the strong personalities in this game...

I can't describe what I want to say at the moment, other than not good things. KMD's thoughts tank your slots' credibility...because A) this is a lazy read through by him or B) a lazy readthrough by him to try and give the appearance you and your team are scumhunting in earnest.

In fact, this being an event that most players will follow I would love to set an example for all how NOT to play around me.

UNVOTE:

I will wait until I'm put to L-1. point out where I crumbed and instantly hammer myself. It should serve to teach many of you how A50 plays his game (and yet I WILL change my playstyle, so it will only be an end of an era).

WEAKSAUCE

I was with you until right here. You haven't done anything this game, this game hasn't been going on that long for you to even do something and get ignored... don't insult us by pulling this bullshit card.

EDIT: I can, but as I demonstrated in this post, KMD's "thoughts" wrecked a lot of my trust in your slot.

[T-Bone]

Also Math, I really don't like the persecution complex...just ask if you want something lol

[T-Bone]

First of,

you do you

, don't worry about what I (or anyone) think of meta. I am not the one logging into your account, putting you out there. You are.

I'm trying to win for the town, and my team, of course I'm going to ask their thoughts and bring stuff to their intention. I'm not gonna devolve into a massive game of telephone or anything, but I'm not gonna sweat the small stuff either. Again, I'm not really against your playstyle, I've been against the content which isn't all that unique and can be easily contrived.

The problem with what KMD posted is that is contrary to what he should know as a player. I can't imagine people having an impression of Skirt being a strong player, and having the impression that LLD would regard Skirt as a strong player. Like, your contributions I haven't questioned in terms of content (just in tone). But, it is like KMD thoughts are MadLibs. Like, those thoughts came preloaded without regards as to the characters who would later occupy those thoughts.

[T-Bone]

If your question is 'do you want me to find games for you?' my answer will always be no.

I barely want to read this one!

If he does think highly of skirt, okay, no big deal. Like, I'm not here to fight you. If you're town I genuinely want you to play your best. It's just if you're scum, then I want you to get dead.

I'm not sure you can read Skirt in this game and have the impression that he is a reputable player. I'm not saying this to slight him or put him down. I always assume everyone is playing to the best of their abilities. But, he posts like that category of player who doesn't have much an ability to influence a game with his force of will, and thus, would not be treated as such by another player.

[T-Bone]

Let me back up. I'm not assuming anything about Skirt's ability as a player. As a rule, I assume everyone is good and plays to their best abilities.

I'm making an assumption about his playstyle, and his ability to influence the game. He entered the game and established himself to be a spam poster. Low content, high volume poster...the type of poster people don't really follow, because spamposters are usually not charismatic enough to lead a town in the early stages of a game, and that's how I felt he was in this game. I then assumed, that's how he is every game. At the very least that's how he was in this game.

And I find it odd, because at that point in the game YOU were the charismatic leader Math. Now, you may or may not feel this way, but in the gamestate we are talking about (like the first 12 hours), you were the charismatic leader and Skirt was the lynchbait. His entrance was not strong, he was spam-posty, and then he mimicked you in some ways. If anything, wouldn't you be the more logical pocket for a scumplay in that situation?

Again, I am describing the first 12 or so hours of the gamestate, not necessarily what the gamestate is now, and why I felt KMD's idea (or what you said KMD's idea) was cookiecutter. It is possible from my perspective you were just making something up and attaching KMD's name to it...and thus...that would best explain why it felt off to me.

Make sense? I'd like to put this one to rest.

[T-Bone]

Yeah, not really interested in Bins as more than a friend at this point. This is a no-go.

[T-Bone]

As thrilling as that post might be. Let me save everyone the trouble.

Skirt: boohoo T-Bone calling me a shit player, you're the shit player

T-Bone: Wow, at no point did I call you a shit player, but thanks for playing. Called you a spamposter, and that was my only commentary on you as a player.

I'm not interested in this conversation otherwise.

[T-Bone]

I'm not rehashing anything with Skirt. I already explained myself, it is his choice to comprehend it wrong. Let's get to some of the real issues.

@Math. I can't find the post off of the top of my head...but you said something to the effect of "T-Bone just doesn't like my style of play and that's why he is interacting with me the way he is" (if I find the post while constructing this, I'll link it). I know it's not the exact quote, but here is where you are wrong. Your style of play has nothing to do with how I approach you. The content of your play is why I continue to do this with you, because in certain aspects, it is severely hollow. I'm being very understanding and perhaps giving you too much brevity because as I said, if you are town, I want you playing to the best of your abilities.

But your constant request of players in this game to get players not in this game to say something about you is so very hollow and low quality. The players in this game have nearly their full attention here, the players not in this game don't. I'm not discounting that players in other games aren't able to follow along. But, they aren't following along as closely as they would were they players. Outside of Team Mafia you know that fishing for townreads would not be looked upon lightly. And here you are, fishing for town reads from players who don't have their full attention on you. And I know you know this...which means they are more likely just to give a gut read. But here's the part I don't like. You're fishing for townreads from players not in this game...to influence players in this game into thinking you are town.

(Anyway, here's the result of you fishing on my team. I told neither Espe or Anen my thoughts before I relayed this request. You probably won't like it, but nonetheless.... Anen says although his memories of Math are old, he doesn't remember getting the feeling that Math posts this much with this little content. He understands why Math would kickstart the game with speculations, but they are too speculative with not enough scumhunting or reflections. So unless he's changed a lot in two years, this isn't the town!Math he remembers. Caveat, why would scum!Math ask for these reads? Espe says he hasn't played in two years and doesn't remember much of Math. I then told them that I might be leaning town, because I was contrasting him with Skirt who had been mimicking a lot of Math's movements thus far, and that I felt Math was sincere in his desire to communicate his ideas with me. Obviously, as I have constructed this post, I don't stand by this at the moment.)

Math is fishing for townreads, but not really trying to earn them. That's ultimately what I feel his strategy in this game is. And that comes from scum way more than town.

So that's how I feel about you now. Or I did...until you flipped the script and decided to abandon your carefully crafted 'let me question people and sort them play' and straight into 'choo choo let's lynch the player scrutinizing me the hardest'. I mean, you waited a whole post for Skirt to decide he was gonna craft an excuse to do it. The problem is...I believe his sincerity here way more than I believe yours at this point. Skirt's #516 is really telling as to why I feel this way.

Anyway, address what you want Math, because you will, but I'll be looking for input from the rest of the playerlist, not another interaction with you at this exact moment.

I agree with much of what you said about Skirt, Bulba, re #528 and #, although as I noted above, I can buy some of the conviction in his latest post...because I think he is legit angry about what he perceives the commentary about him to be. I don't want you just giving blind reads

Let's finish up quickly.

I am reluctant to join the wagon on T-Bone though because I hated his push on me, so my personal feelings ARE involved here.

What I'm going to do is go read the other games and come back here later on to see if I want to join the T-Bone wagon on it's merits and not based on my own personal feelings.

Don't let a little thing like being pushed as scum for your play affect your ability to vote for me!

But seriously...you solve this problem in your next post.

I don't think you'd even think of throwing the game as town here.

Who the freak said anything about throwing the game? And how is getting lynched on D1 even close to throwing the game?

Also, you don't think I'd do this as Town, but you think I'd do it as Scum?? So it's more likely -from your point of view- that SCUM would "throw the game" in Day bloody one??

The fact is my slot is getting too much attention that it's literally hindering all the scum hunting.

Yes. I admit I'm not being productive and it's affecting the quality of others reads in a negative way.

Take me out of the picture and you might get better reads (not YOU specifically. I mean most everyone.)

So, I'm inviting everyone who is not at least Town leaning me to vote me just to remove the distraction. Do you understand now?

I don't understand why you don't get the logical conclusion as to why I called you out in the first place?

You...haven't done anything productive before your freak out. Which by the way it is fine, we were what, 15 pages into the game? No one has really done anything productive.

But then you freak the fuck out because Bulba thinks you might be scum, and act all indignant because...why? It is not like you've been trying to push a lynch for several day phases and were banging your head against the wall, it is not like you were under any pressure at all, it was not like we were rallying to (mis)lynch you at this point.

Do you not understand why then freaking out seems completely out of place for a town player to do in your situation? And why I might then think "wow that is fake as fuck, there is no visible reason for Almost50 to be frustrated here as town." and thus why I might think this is really out of character...and think instead "oh, this is scum theatre" and treat it as such?


----

Anyway, at this point in time, the tl;dr is I am most interested in Skirt, A50, and Math...although I am not interested in them as a team together (in case anyone was wondering). I have reservations about each for various reasons, so I'm not in a rush. I'm looking for someone new to perhaps work through thoughts on these players. Or whatever ya'll want. Just someone I haven't talked to yet.

[T-Bone]

Don't worry about it Math, not something I want to talk with you about in the immediate future. Maybe later in the day phase.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone: If you're gonna respond to anything respond to this. Please give exact examples of me fishing for townreads, because that is literally not something I remember doing this game outside of those couple posts.
I'd like you to answer this because I'm trying to evaluate the sincerity of your push on me.

You've quotted two of them already....#354,/356 ask so and so to compare you and UCV...#385 ask me to ask Anen and Espe and #393 where you think I think I don't want my teammates reading you...I'm pretty sure you've asked for both mastina and RC's opinions on you early...

Anyway, I'm not saying that is all you are doing, that is just one component of your play that you are doing that rubs me the wrong way. I'm not meaning to paint it as 'look Math does it everytime he posts!'

Not everything a player posts is scummy, and not everything a player posts is townie. I pick the things I feel are scummy and spotlight them. Like, I'm on A50 for one specific event, for example.

[T-Bone]

Anyway, bottomline and then I am moving on Math. I understand why someone might fish for reads as town.

I just want you to understand (if you are town), why I feel like scum would love to fish for reads in this format.

[T-Bone]

I feel the AtE...but she'll get upset now that I've typed that.

This is the type of AtE that appeals to me (appearing conciliatory and logical) personally, so I don't know how I feel about that.

My biggest question remains that juicy piece of theatre yesterday.

[T-Bone]

Do it now, you're not doing anything important zzz

[T-Bone]

those lives will be there later, probably, just saying.

[T-Bone]

Bins

Literally, the players that are the most pro-town at this point are at the bottom of your list...how did you do that?

[T-Bone]

Along with Bulba, yeah.

[T-Bone]

I should probably just say the players I think are more likely to be town at this point. Add in Bins and keychain, and that's how I feel atm. Sincerely I think other than me, Bulba is the most pro-town force at this stage of the game.

[T-Bone]

Yeah but you positioned him at the bottom of the list, and that's where my commentary came from.

[T-Bone]

Of course that is exactly what I'm doing. It is not like we have similar reads, and similar reasons for those reads or anything like that. Nope.

[T-Bone]

I don't want you to feel bad, stop that.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone you and your reads are a complete mystery to me right now. Who do you think is scum and why?

I think I've been transparent in that I'd like to lynch one of Transcend/Math/A50 at this point, and thus, I don't want to lynch anyone else.

Transcend because of his predecessor's early day play. I found him to be completely mimicking Mathdino in substance, but not conviction. This pings me a couple of ways. First, in the gamestate, which was the first 16 hours, you might consider Math the town leader, based on his posting and such. Skirt does a lot of spamposty stuff, which is his style, I get. But it lacks conviction, and yet, I'd say until Skirt decided he was pissed off at Bulba and myself, that his strategy was to just play follow the leader with Math. A lot of what I go back and forth with Math on is that despite the scummy things he does, he was mostly sincere in his desire to communicate, and his desire to put himself out there. Skirt lacked both of these attributes the entire time he was in the game. Now, the post where he decides to vote me with a case still lacks the conviction of scumhunting. Because he spends quite a bit of the post laminating about how Bulba and I are too old to get his playstyle, how we might be decent players but arrogant because we've been around awhile. Oh, and how this post wouldn't turn into a T-Bone case because he hasn't posted enough and the game hasn't gone on long enough for him to have a read. Which is fine.

In post #514, the first spoiler, I think is genuine. I think he interpreted the way I talked about him in regards to KMD as a personal insult, and that part of the post came from the heart. Then he starts quoting Bulba, and basically starts breaking down why everyone voting for him is wrong (which at this point is LLD, Bulba, UCV, and myself). Contrast that with the bottom of his post, the readslist. Absolutely no conviction. The readslist is full of "I don't have a read, I sheep my teammates" and we townread these players...and oh by the way we all think T-Bone is scum.

And no one sees the difference? (obviously Bulba and I do, and presumably LLD if she has followed along)

Math is probably the majority of my ISO, so let me tl;dr for you. I interacted with him heavily in the early game, because I wanted to decide for myself whether he was using his mafia-theory and meta-hunting talk as legitimate tools, or hiding behind them because when you are a meta player it is very easily to be a "meta-player" as scum. I know meta-players like to say that they can't fake it, but I don't buy it. I was leaning town early on Math actually, despite the issues that I brought up, because he was the counterweight to Skirt, who I feel is our strongest candidate for scum. Obviously, the KMD thing is where I started to think otherwise, because I felt like KMD's reads had no context in the gamestate. They looked fake to me. Finally, his 180 on tone when he decided that he could try to lynch me...makes me think that was a change of heart out of convenience, to try to get a player lynched who is giving him a hard time. That's how it looks to my eyes. If Math is scum, that explains everything. (If Math is town, then I have no explanation as to why he's suddenly shifted his tone). It even gave Skirt pause, which surprised me.

I also mentioned how I didn't like the way he asked people to ask their teammates to read him. And yes, he did clarify that in the instances I thought he was doing that he was asking for another player, but that's not how it came across to me, hence why I even complied and had Anen check his ISO per that request. I accept I interperted those instances incorrectly. However, I still feel icky everytime I see him request a player not in this game to do something, because those players are never going to give this game their full attention... but I can buy that he might want their input for his own sake.

A50 I documented pretty well in #615. Basically, I feel Almost50 had decided to drop major scum theatre when she freaked out for no reason and voted herself, saying she should be lynched. It came completely out of nowhere, and doesn't make sense to me coming from town playing to the best of their abilities. She wasn't under any threat of a lynch, she wasn't banging her head on a wall trying to get a scumread lynched, and she wasn't being ignored. So...why does she flip out and self-vote as if those things were occurring? I know why she might do this as scum, I don't know why she would do this as town based on where the game was.

I'm less certain on Math and Almost50, so that's why I haven't moved my vote. Skirt gave me pause a bit because I genuinely felt his frustration with Bulba and I...but I don't think Transcend has done anything that makes me think 'maybe this slot is town'. Math and Almost rank mid-tier for me because they do things I have a hard time justifying to myself how town!them would decide to do them.

But like, I tend to document things over time and not in singular posts, so if you want to know something specific, just ask. I'm not hiding my reads.

I'll make a second post to address anything else directed at me. Don't want these to get too long.

[T-Bone]

do you want to like tl;dr that post for me in like 2 sentences or less thx

I think Skirt is scum, and Transcend hasn't changed that.

I think Math and Almost have done scummy things that I can't explain to myself why town might do them.

Shrug City, you can't really explain complex reads and feelings over two sentences, and I'm already on my third.

[T-Bone]

He's also shown he's very self conscious about the way people read him and sometimes that's fine but he seemed to get rubbed the wrong way that felt like annoyed scum then town scum are also much more worried how people think about them then town do.

Can you clarify who "he" is, and expand this, because I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[T-Bone]

I interacted with him heavily in the early game, because I wanted to decide for myself whether he was using his mafia-theory and meta-hunting talk as legitimate tools, or hiding behind them because when you are a meta player it is very easily to be a "meta-player" as scum. I know meta-players like to say that they can't fake it, but I don't buy it. I was leaning town early on Math actually, despite the issues that I brought up, because he was the counterweight to Skirt, who I feel is our strongest candidate for scum. Obviously, the KMD thing is where I started to think otherwise, because I felt like KMD's reads had no context in the gamestate. They looked fake to me. Finally, his 180 on tone when he decided that he could try to lynch me...makes me think that was a change of heart out of convenience, to try to get a player lynched who is giving him a hard time. That's how it looks to my eyes. If Math is scum, that explains everything. (If Math is town, then I have no explanation as to why he's suddenly shifted his tone). It even gave Skirt pause, which surprised me.

Okay dude couple things because I'm not

not

responding to this

1. I'm not a meta-player, I've never been a meta-player, I personally use meta as a weak tool that primarily helps with understanding playstyle (null-tells). My comments at the beginning of the game aren't based on other games, they're based on reading through GTKAS and shit. I did this for

every player I could dig info on

. Not all of my teammates wanted to use it, but I did in my game because that info is better than absolute nothing. Pretending to be in a no-information stage when we weren't would be completely antithetical to how I play this game.

2. I don't have anything to say if you think KMD's reads looked fake when after skimming 2 pages at 2 AM. Well actually I do:
- KMD is a MUCH better scum player than I am, it's hilarious that you think you can read my slot better off of KMD than off of me
- Since that initial "My teammate read 2 pages" post, I've posted tons of KMD/GL thoughts that you haven't responded to.

3. What 180 in tone are you talking about?

1. Okay, you're not a meta-player...but that's primarily the tool you have used in Day 1. I don't get why you are up in arms about this?

2. At no point do I suggest that my read is based on that and that alone. It is just one thing. Nor am I trolling your ISO looking for posts to go "aha, these are also scummy!" That's called confirmation bias. I work forwards on my reads, not backwards. What I mean by that is I don't go "now that I think this player is scum based on something, let me look through his posts and find more reasons to justify the read". That's not how it works.

3. Remember how I said "I think Math is town because I feel he genuinely is trying to communicate with people?" I no longer feel that is what you're doing. You also placed a lazy vote on me, which flew against the thoughtfulness you had for the game up until that point.

And as a general point. These are how things LOOK TO ME. I'm not getting into a back and forth about what you've think I've gotten wrong about you. That's not how it works. If I am scum from your perspective, I should be manipulative, I should be pushing a narrative, I should be doing whatever you think scum would be doing at this stage. I don't get any of that from you.

I'm not misrepresenting you, nor am I trying to paint a picture for the rest of the playerlist to mislynch town!Math. I'm representing who I think you are based on the way I am reading you. I know you are fairly concerned that I think you're scum. Here's why I'm where I am at, and why I haven't entertained your defenses the way you want me to. When you respond to me, you are telling me why I am wrong...but you are not showing me through your play. And that is what I look for when I evaulate my reads. This post is another example of you

telling

but not

showing

.

[T-Bone]

He's also shown he's very self conscious about the way people read him and sometimes that's fine but he seemed to get rubbed the wrong way that felt like annoyed scum then town scum are also much more worried how people think about them then town do.

Can you clarify who "he" is, and expand this, because I don't understand what you're trying to say.

he being mathdino I'll try to go find quotes

No I got you now, just wasn't sure if you were talking about Math or Transcend. We are fairly on the same page when it comes to Math and tone.

[T-Bone]

I think you're town Elena <3

[T-Bone]

I think you're town Elena <3

T-bone best list mod <3

Thanks for being in my pocket now

T-Bone is at it again!

[T-Bone]

No, cause you're town is every game ever

[T-Bone]

Do you realize that I stop to joke with everybody all the time?

Because if you recall, Transcend accused me of trying to buddy townreads before?

And that therefore it is absolutely hilarious to me to do it in-thread?

Math if you started having fun with me I would also drop some sweet emojis on you. Don't be so jealous.

<3<3<3<3<3 Bins, my early townread.

There, now you can feel weird too!

[T-Bone]

Spoiler: For Transcend

[T-Bone]

(hopefully, he doesn't notice this, but there is a secret image of an arrow through that heart, which symbolizes how I'm gonna stab him in the back, metaphorically)

[T-Bone]

Okay, real talk now.

Elena, in a vacuum...who convinces you more that they think I am scum. Math or Skirt/Transcend? I suppose anyone else can answer this question too, and then hopefully we'll see what I'm getting at. Something caught my eye.

[T-Bone]

It was addressed to Radja, post #854...hence why I glossed over it. Math says "then skirt came in and did a massive post including why t-bone is scum". He is probably referring to #514. Now, this is a massive post, but the only thing that he says about my alignment is right at the bottom where he says "only player we collectively scumread vote: t-bone". However, that was enough for Math and he voted for me the very next post.

All the points in the spoilered part of his post that address me are Skirt venting because he is upset at the way I talked about him, but he does admit during that post, as I noted, that I hadn't posted enough and the game hadn't gone on long enough for him to get a read on me.

I didn't think much of it for two reasons. One, being that Skirt himself said he didn't have enough to read me...and I thought you could argue Math was building to a possible vote on me. But in this quote to Radja...is he implying that this massive post convinced him I was scum?

Edit: and I guess as Math pointed out again right now. Because again, Skirt didn't have a case beyond 'me and my team all agree Bone is scum'. The rest of his post that was about me was just Skirt venting.

[T-Bone]

EBWOP: I didn't think much of it (Math's vote) for two reasons. One, being that Skirt himself said he didn't have enough to read me (because of his lack of conviction, thus his vote would have been the fake one)---

[T-Bone]

That's fine dude.

But your sudden bravado right after and since when it came to my lynch? That was where I felt the 180 in tone came from.

Like I said, I originally overlooked it, because I thought you might do it (vote me) anyway.

[T-Bone]

In the context of "I am going to vote my biggest critic based on nothing and push him hard" scum. Let's say that Math is lying right this second (although I think he may be truthful) and he knew there wasn't an actual case in that post, but charged full steam ahead anyway. Do you get what I was getting at?

[T-Bone]

I don't think you are lying, you don't have to convince me. I don't think it changes much, because I can see you doing it as either alignment.

I feel like you'd be more likely to make excuses as scum to be honest, so bonus points for you.

[T-Bone]

If anything, pointing this out was mostly for town!Math's benefit, because I bet a lot of what I said since then makes a little more sense, no?

[T-Bone]

What?

Do you not understand the chain of events here?

Math starts pushing me based upon a nonexistent case that Skirt made, and I recognize this. Do you not understand why I might think "why would Math claim there was a case on me made by Skirt when there wasn't?" and conclude "well, he's probably doing it as an excuse to vote me".

What part of that thought process doesn't track for you?

[T-Bone]

If people scumread me, that's fine. But I'm certainly gonna break it down and decide for myself whether that is a legit scumread or made up, and then act accordingly. I don't care if players scumread me, and I'm not in the business of getting them to stop.

I wasn't pointing this out to refute your scumread on me remember? I was pointing this out to Elena to see if she also saw it.

[T-Bone]

You're misreading then. Because I said I would have expected scum in his position to make excuses once being caught...which he didn't do.

The part about either alignment is the part where Math fabricates a reason to vote...which he did...because that particular thing isn't alignment telling based on where the gamestate is.

But in those two sentences I was referring to two separate instances. One happened 20 pages ago, one happened 20 minutes ago.

[T-Bone]

See location

[T-Bone]

Awww you don't think my wagon is good. How sweet.

[T-Bone]

Hey T-Bone where are we at in terms of your reads on A50, Elena, and Bins?

Mini-update: NSG's reading through and suggests that "too many townreads" is often a symptom of lurksack scum, whether or not the scum are intentionally trying to lurk.

Same as I was a few hours ago. Did you want something specific?

[T-Bone]

I think not understanding why someone would do something as town is a pretty big deal. I know why it would have been done as scum. That's not the issue. The answer to the question 'why would PLAYER do THING as scum?' is ALWAYS 'to make you ask why PLAYER would do THING as scum.' Take that nugget of wisdom with you for now and forever.

Bins I read as town very early in the game. She was the first player I read and went 'okay, she is probably town.' Might be half gut, but I can't say she's done anything I find scummy.

Elena is actively scumhunting, I feel she has conviction behind what she is doing, and is generally obvious-towning it up. I don't know how you could read her contributions to the game and think 'look how fake this is, obviously she's making everything up.' You might be able to say she is good at fake being town...but then where does that leave you?

[T-Bone]

I don't really agree, but I also don't spend a lot of time town sorting or town hunting either.

[T-Bone]

Bins, you want to maybe explain how I was "in a bad spot"? Any rational actor would probably describe my spot as "good", considering Math was the one citing a non-existent case to justify his vote.

Anyway...let's get to the main event.

So

Bulbazak,T-Bone, UC Voyager

You have 24 hours to remove your vote from that player and put it on someone else or I'm going to lynch you because at this point my patience is at zero.

In a word? No.

In more words?

How about this. Transcend is scum and YOU have 24 hours to remove your vote from where ever it is and put it on Transcend, or I'm going to lynch you because my patience is at zero.

Like...seriously how did you expect this to go?

But let's talk about fucks to give, since that was a big topic of yours. Because I have zero fucks to give about your tantrum. You are in no position to have one. You've been absent from the game for days. Now, that in itself is fine, people are absent from games sometimes, and that's not the issue. However, you don't get to throw a tantrum because one or two people say 'oh how about LLD?' Like, what do you think people are going to say when you're not here? Of course someone is going to bring up lynching you! Someone has also brought up lynching other players who have had extended absences from the game. What makes you so special that we should be okay with you freaking out?

Is that how we do things now? Do I need to flip out because people keep calling me scum? Is that the way to get A) people to think you're town and B) to get what you want? Because you're now the 2nd player to flip out without having the standing to do so. I don't care if you think you're justified...because according to the game state, you have no standing to get indignant about how the game is proceeding because you haven't been here.

So, 24 hours from whenever you post again, your vote needs to be on Transcend.

I would assume that since you are the type of player to make threats...you are also the type of player to respond well to threats, correct? I mean, since you decided I would be the type of player to respond well to threats, this makes perfect sense to me.

----

(please note that I am just matching LLD's tone to make a point, and not actually freaking out)

[T-Bone]

SNIP

Like, not to pile on here, I get that LLD was having a bad day...but this is bad and you should feel bad.

Absolute lunacy.

Bins and Math, you should feel bad about your role in this too. Absolute madness that you can look at those series of posts and think they are game relevant.

Absolute insanity that anyone would look at these series of posts and think "well obviously Elena and/or T-Bone are posting this because they are scum and want to laugh about it later so I better vote for Elena and/or T-Bone because I don't actually have any sense here."

Absolutely crazy.

It was batshit nonsensical when you two reacted to it the way you did the first time, and it hasn't aged well that's for sure.

[T-Bone]

The only thing I've insulted is your reaction to the above. Haven't insulted your reads so you can take a step right back there. When you posted your readslist, I pointed out that you were scumreading all my townreads not to shame you for them, but to get you to maybe reevaluate since I was townreading you. Is it so wrong of me to want you to start having reads that I agree with?

And that last part is just so untrue. Bad spot? Give me a break. Should town!Bone have not said anything about Mathdino in that situation? Yes or no?

[T-Bone]

Don't put on a show for me.

If there are things that I have done this game that legitimately make you think I'm scum, that's fine.

But don't make a show of it by citing nonsense and going "this continues to confirm my read of you". I was in a bad spot so I pointed out Mathdino's contradiction? Give me a fucking break. Now you're just putting on a show. You know it is nonsense, you're just getting defensive because you think I was attacking you when I wasn't. Come back to me when you're ready to not be so defensive every time I question you. Of course I'm going to question you! I think you are townreading players who are likely to be scum!

[T-Bone]

Oh well if it not about me then just say so. Don't worry, I'm not upset. I do get frustrated sometimes when I feel like people are overlooking the obvious, but that's about it. I've never gonna like curse you out or anything because I don't agree with you lol

It's absolute lunacy that anyone could have a townread on Transcend for anything he's done. He's playing like scum. Now, he can always be doing that to ensure he doesn't ever draw the nightkill.

I can buy that people have a townread on Transcend based on Skirt Skirt. I can't buy that when I or Bulba were bringing up the issues we each had with him, there was such a collective shrug from the rest of the playerlist. Yes, I get it. This slot contains players that have a posting style that is frustrating to read, and it is just easier to write them off.

But, despite that, I don't see the advantage of a scum!LLD backing off of Transcend. Why not continue to push it, and maybe we lynch him, and then have the playerlist turn on me when he flips town? Now, I'm not discounting that scum!LLD sees bringing Transcend further into the game as a benefit. If I were scum, holy hell would I drag him as far into the game as I could, because whether his reads are right or wrong, he is going to continue to frustrate his fellow townies.

Gun to head, that specific action...I think I've convinced myself that it is a smart scumplay. I don't know that it outweighs what I feel was her obviously town play at the beginning of the game. What specifically bothered you about her early game that you think she is scum?

With that said, I'm reserving my judgment for her reaction to me, because I'm sure my two posts directed at her are going to go over well.

[T-Bone]

I'm here for fun Bins, even if my posts are pointed, please don't forget that. I will drop everything at a moments notice to crack a joke or do a bit with someone, or whatever, because this is supposed to be fun.

[T-Bone]

For the record, so we're on the same page, I'm not saying Transcend has done anything smoking gun - this is scum. He's just taking up space right now and trying to be as frustrating as possible. I would hope that if he was town, he would make more of an effort to be communicative.

He could also be one of those players who are more concerned about playing well as scum, so when they draw town, they are as unhelpful as they possibly can be. That is certainly a possibility. He could also be one of those players that think that if they are unbearable long enough, that we will do what he wants to shut him up.

At this point in time, the only meaningful contributions from that slot have come from Skirt. Maybe that will change? I don't know.

But as far as someone basing their townread based on Transcend's contribution to the game, I have a really hard time taking it seriously. He hasn't contributed anything alignment indicative one way or another. Unless you think 'too scummy/unhelpful to be scum' is valid. And that's weaksauce.

-snip-

This is when I backed of skirtskirt. Before then, most of his posts were giving me bad feelings, but the "all town teammates" thing was really getting to me and the information he was getting from them felt genuine, but I suppose it could've been forced. Effort as scum... like this? Actually would make sense I guess, I would never do this as town.

I'm all over the place.
Doggo is going to be upset.

Glad you're looking at this post. Please notice how different his words from the spoilered areas are from the non-spoiled area at the bottom.

I think he is legitimately frustrated and upset about how he was talked about by Bulba, LLD, and myself. That I don't question. He himself admits that he isn't certain what his reads are, because he is so upset. Of me, he says "T-Bone hasn't done enough for me to read him". Of UCV, "you know exactly what I'm thinking" of LLD "you will unvote me later" . He quotes a bunch of Bulba, LLD, and me, and breaks it down, like someone upset would. Contrast that with the reads list. The tone shifts completely. The frustration is gone, replaced by a cool calmness as he explains his reads...which are completely at odds with the way he treated the rest of the post. Why not carry it over? It is as if he wrote the spoilered parts himself, from the heart...and he crafted the rest with the help of his team. It lacks conviction, and reads fake. Yes, working with teammates is important, but this part of the post is not written with the same emotion the first part was. To me, it was written with a narrative in mind. It was written with the conclusion of "I am going to townread these players, scum read these players, and then come up with the reasons". I feel that when he put together this list, he decided who he was gonna call town and scum BEFORE he decided what those reasons would be.

This is really the thing I have asked people to look at. If you disagree with my take on it, I want to know why.

[T-Bone]

I'm not saying that to insult you. If you want to post more than empty content and 'lol why haven't we lynched t-bone yet' please, don't let me stand in your way.

[T-Bone]

Ohhh look at him hedge his second mislynch already.

Math here's the list.

Transcend
Transcend
uhhh Transcend
maybe A50

[T-Bone]

Math. Town players do not say 'if my top scumread flips town, I'm just gonna carry on to the other player". Town players don't make those associations, because town players don't know anyone's alignment. Town players don't just move down a list when they get a read wrong. He knows I'm town, and that's why he said that.

[T-Bone]

And town players don't post #1184 either...because they are aware of why people are scumreading them, and wouldn't ask to try and make anyone think no such reasonings exist.

Yeah dude, I know he doesn't care about being pro-town, and I know there are many players like him. This isn't new. However in this instance, it is because he is scum. Look at him pretend that the only thing I have ever said about him is "Transcend is scum". I mean he's asking for a case? Give me a break.

This isn't a policy lynch. This is a scum one.

[T-Bone]

I'll hammer Transcend if he gets there but I'm not pushing him. Same with A50. I don't push policy lynches, I take them as compromise (or wait til everyone else scumreads them).

Are you saying this for the reasons I stated earlier? Which is that it is too frustrating to play with players like him, so you'd rather ignore instead of sort?

[T-Bone]

It concerns me that you're basing your townread on meta and not this game, so we're even.

[T-Bone]

<3 Transcend

[T-Bone]

That's irrelevant considering that I don't scumread him for his playstyle.

[T-Bone]

Like, Transcend himself has been unremarkably not doing anything alignment indicative since his entrance, his recent scumburst notwithstanding. If not for Skirt, I'd probably have Transcend in the middle of my reads pile, because his style makes it very easy to hide his intentions.

[T-Bone]

seriously?

[T-Bone]

Yes, because how I've been describing your play is at complete odds with that.

[T-Bone]

Math seriously dude, I've said the same things as his first two lines in this game.

[T-Bone]

You've posted reads, but 'transparent about your thought processes' is definitely not a thing you've done. Anyone can post reads.

[T-Bone]

To clarify before you shout at me again.

I know what your reads are.

I have no idea why a town!Transcend might have them. I don't know that anyone else can say why either...and that is part of being transparent about your thought processes.

[T-Bone]

Like, Transcend himself has been unremarkably not doing anything alignment indicative since his entrance, his recent scumburst notwithstanding. If not for Skirt, I'd probably have Transcend in the middle of my reads pile, because his style makes it very easy to hide his intentions.

Transcend play (even to those who don't know him) could be ANYTHING at best. Yes, it could be Scum driven (for those who don't know him, I say), but could also be a TPR trying to NOT get NK'd.. OR (look at this contradiction) a

VT

who IS trying to eat a bullet for the Town by pretending to be a TPR trying to go unnoticed.

Now Scum probably already know he's not one of them (I hard TR Transcend's play) so they now have to guess if he's worth getting shot or is trying to bait them to shoot him.

I am super glad it can be ANYTHING, I really am. But when I say it could be scum driven, you immediately dismiss? So obviously it can't be anything since that's not something you are even considering.

Don't put on this dog and pony show for me. I'm not interested.

I'll tell you one thing for sure, if Transcend is town, he poses no risk to the scum team at the moment. Not when his top scumreads include Elena and I. So you do not have to worry about him drawing the kill tonight when he is locked into my mislynch, and is certain to do no reevaluation of his reads when I flip town if I am today's lynch.

No, I think the explanation is much simpler than that. Regardless of his alignment, he is only interested in one thing, his own survival. Which for scum!Transcend, this is a good move on his part. For town!Transcend, survival seems to be his primary concern, not game solving. It is what it is, but please don't put on a show for me and try to tell me this is part of some master plan to win the game for town.

Not when his reads boil down to obvtown, obvscum...but he doesn't communicate why he thinks those are the case. Oh sure, he attaches buzzwords to his scumread on me, "manipulative, discrediting, misrepresenting"...but he attaches no meaning behind these. He says "other people think this too"...and this is acceptable to town!A50? For real? Fuck his meta.

Can someone for fuck's sake articulate a townread on Transcend that doesn't include "this is just what he does?" Lamist fucking excuse ever, and if you're town, that should not be a praise in your dictionary. There's something else I can teach you. Never ask "why would PLAYER do X as scum?" and never say "this is just what PLAYER does". We might get somewhere if we can strike both of those things from the mafia lexicon.

[T-Bone]

If you guys are masons just say so now Lol

I would, but neither mastina nor Titus are in this game for me to do that stunt. (I do it to fuck with them for various reasons that are not important)

[T-Bone]

I'm probably more frustrated that people refuse to evaluate Transcend on the merits of this game, more than I am frustrated that people don't agree that he's scum.

Transcend is not a policy wagon, stop that. He is either a wagon because you think he's scum, or not a wagon cause you think he's town.

I'm about ready for a heel turn tbh. Let's tag team my furry friend. IT WAS ME AUSTIN, IT WAS ME ALL ALONG

[T-Bone]

Yeah and that's why I am frustrated.

[T-Bone]

Well then let me explicitly say it. I will not be convinced by reasoning that has nothing to do with this game. So yeah, you saying "yeah this is scummy, except I know him so it's not" does nothing for me. You might as well write in wing-dings.

Maybe you are convinced that since you know him, this is town. But if that's all you got, that's not good enough for me, and I'm going to continue to challenge you, or anyone else on it, until I get something relevant to this game, and not to pre-conceived notions.

Like, do you think that he is such a poor player that he can't play you?

Because I think everyone plays to the best of their ability, and thus, he is very capable of mimicking whatever you think his town meta is.

So we can talk in circles if you want. If you want to make progress with me, I need something relevant to this game.

It's actually a serious question because T-Bone is now doing the same shit Elena did; actively rejecting worthwhile pieces of evidence.

It's not worthwhile evidence to ME. What part of that don't you understand? I don't have any of your experiences, and I don't know your alignments. Why should I trust something that isn't relevant to this game?

[T-Bone]

Like, should I just assume everyone is stupid? Should I assume that scum!Math or scum!A50 are not able to pick and choose how they apply meta to manipulate the board? Should I assume that you are not good at this game?

Because that's basically what you're asking me to do when you say "well I have these experiences, and that's why he's town, why won't you accept the evidence?"

Because it isn't just about him, it is also about the source.

if Transcend is town, he poses no risk to the scum team at the moment

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Even as a VT, this innocent looking dog can sniff Scum pretty well, and is sure to do something impressive at the right time. To tell you the truth, of I was Scum I'd be more worried about Transcend than -say- Mathdino (that's a general statement though, bc the game I won as SK with Dino makes him the more dangerous of the two in this game, bc I know "any investigative him" would be on me on N1.).

And if I were scum I would bring him to LyLo.

Why is my experience less valid than yours...when you are arguing that I should trust your experience? That doesn't make sense. You're calling me dense and then refusing to even consider things from my perspective in the same breath.

@T-Bone: i agree that like
you/me/Bins/Elena/A50
are basically not gonna get anywhere at this point
since we're all talking past each other
except you/Elena who have a weird amount of accord
and my team and Bins who have a weird amount of agreement on everything

all i'm doing is broadcasting how things are shifting in my mind and why
it's kinda talking in circles yeah but it's better than keeping reads secret imo

I appreciate the transparency. I understand your perspective if you're town. How many times do I have to say this? I want town!Math playing to the best of his ability.

I'd just like you to actually think about my perspective too.

[T-Bone]

I'm not saying you would have to lie. But you can pick and choose your reasons and then go 'oops, guess we were wrong'. Should I not assume you're capable of manipulating? Because even if you personally don't think you are, that it absolute lunacy for me to also think that.

Your team is not credible at the moment by virtue of you being unflipped. They absolutely should help town!Math. They can't help me, because they aren't here, you are.

[T-Bone]

It is not so much that I am locked into just 1 or 2 or 3 persons....it is that we have 9 days till deadline. Now is not the time for consolidation. I don't know what I am going to do yet if and when we get to that point.

[T-Bone]

And if I were scum I would bring him to LyLo.

And now you're lying out of your teeth, because he was tunneling YOU. Unless you're sure bringing him to LyLo would make him go "Oh, well.. since I'm still alive then I must've been wrong about him all along, so let me vote the other person that I was SRing less or not at all!"

Not really, because then I would have also been playing as scum, which means manipulating the board, not scumhunting.

[T-Bone]

I also do not buy the premise that all reads from scum players' team-mates can be assumed to be genuine, either, because that would require said team-mates to not know who the scum were.

When I was scum in TM2012, I did not tell my team who my scum mates were. However, I did that so they wouldn't accidentally slip that knowledge. I don't remember what we did in 2015. I would have suggested withholding that knowledge had we drawn scum this year, again, so someone doesn't accidentally slip knowledge they shouldn't have.

I honestly don't know if knowledge of who your scummates are comes automatically, or if scum players have to tell their teams or not.

So I guess the point is that if the option to withhold that knowledge is available, I would buy that a team would do it.

Also, I am about to head to Philly for NXT TakeOver....so bye. Might be back tomorrow, might not until Monday after work. Check the Pro Wrestling Thread if you want to see me shitpost live!

[T-Bone]

Not a fan of "are you seeing what I'm seeing" kinds of questions, same way I wasn't really when LLD did it at the start of the game. Fun defensive response from Dino though in 940 and 943.

Also please use post tags from now on so I can check the posts you're referring to without having to hunt them down please <3

Nice way to pick and choose quotes here...because you completely skipped the most important part of this sequence. The most important part of that sequence was not #937. Strange that is what you decide to fixate on. I'd understand if you would have highlighted this to point out that you don't like it and then finish your thoughts on the sequence of events...but then you just go into something completely irrelevant instead.

And yes, for the record, when people comment about things that are not game relevant, I am going to call them for it. Kinda like how you did here. It is not because I am trying to shut down a townie...it is because commenting on things that are not game relevant is something extremely easy for scum to do to pretend to contribute.

Here is my translation of this post, someone who is not Keychain tell me if I've gone wrong. "let me point out something that bothers me, skip over the game relevant event, and then comment about how you should allow people to talk about irrelevant stuff unchallenged".

[T-Bone]

it really sucks if LLD is town and she has to AtE like that jesus

but i do agree
VOTE: titus


im so freaking skeeved by tbone but i cant figure out who he'd be partnered with for the life of me
itd have to be like a50 (the unlikely scum troll) and aero
and i just cant work w that

Hold up. I've been arguing with you about scumreading that slot the entire game...and all it takes is for a force-replace and Titus entry to get you to do it?

[T-Bone]

Also now that Titus is here I claim masons with umm....Elena

[T-Bone]

Does someone want to try to earn a locktown read by posting a summary of the game which I will compare to my read and if you're on the money you get the prize

I'll do you one better. No summary, just sheep me for all you're worth.

[T-Bone]

<3 Bins

[T-Bone]

Please wait before you choo-choo, I'm waiting for something. Extremely important.

[T-Bone]

It's almost as if....meta is trash amirite?

[T-Bone]

Well I mean, they are all citing different games and saying 'but wait, when Math was scum/town he played this completely different way!'

What more proof do I need that meta is trash and exists only to benefit scum, because they can fake the playstyle with ease?

So, does that make you scum, Dunker? Hardly much contributions from you...but now that people are discussing meta...you see an opening to muddy the waters, right? You know, like I would expect a scum player to do?

Give me a good reason that town!Dunker would muddy the waters, please.

[T-Bone]

@T-bone: Are you SRing Dunker or are you just trying to convince him that meta is trash?

Maybe I just want to ask a question?

[T-Bone]

Goddammit Math, see what you've made me do? Chess is gonna be scared for life.

[T-Bone]

@T-bone: Are you SRing Dunker or are you just trying to convince him that meta is trash?

Maybe I just want to ask a question?

And also maybe I want Dunker to answer the question rather than Math jumping in yet again to answer EVERYTHING?

jsyk @ Math

[T-Bone]

This argument is stupid, because I don't think anyone has entertained the notion that A50 is scum because she self-voted. But yet, she keeps hammering it as if that is the case.

Because it certainly hasn't come from me. So, who did it come from in this game?

[T-Bone]

React to what, exactly? If Math really wants to go down that route, he's getting lynched over Fitz 100%.

But, until Titus does something otherwise, she replaced into a scumslot. She's a fairly transparent player when it comes to her alignment in my opinion, so to me, her silence is deafening.

[T-Bone]

Bonus points from singer: also has townpings from Dino, also picked up on some Keychain stuff that seems like low-effort scumposting, call me back when you’re ready to take her seriously as a lynch target y’all!

Tell us more.

[T-Bone]

Awww.

there's a really good chance Titus is scum.

More specifically, RC thinks Titus is really really scum.

Yes, tell us more.

[T-Bone]

Oh okay, Titus is indeed scum. Excellent.

[T-Bone]

This is Titus when she replaces into a scumslot. Go ahead and look at her 'needs to die' reasoning, and you'll see it.

[T-Bone]

SNIP

SNIP

Just to follow up with you, this resonates with me for many of the reasons you (or RC) have described. I personally find Titus to be a transparent player as to when she is town (and thus, inversely, when she isn't). I know people like to cite "meta" or "moonlogic" but it is honestly much more simpler than that. Titus has slid into this game in the same exact spot her predecessor's left. Her reads are the same, and more importantly, nonsensical in their nature, from what little she has let on.

Now, you might say "well, of course, her reads are the same, her team is confirmed town to her" and you may be right. Her nonsensical reads might be due to her team giving quick reads, and that might be a fair assessment. Except Skirt is still on her team, and he paid attention to our game, and he had the same problems with his reads.

[T-Bone]

This is Titus when she replaces into a scumslot. Go ahead and look at her 'needs to die' reasoning, and you'll see it.

Why don't you explain why you are doubtcasting me here rather than stating both me and Transcend catching you is scummy? Oh wait, doubtcasting is what you do. You did the same tactic on Transcend earlier.

Do you have any engagement on the reads I have put out at the moment aside from the one on you or are you trying to create drama to get me lynched and ignored?

Well, if you had caught up with the game and or if your team was following a town slot, you would have known that I repeatedly criticized Skirt for having empty reads with nothing behind him. And you've trotted out the same reads with...reasons that are copypasta (and not to mention also empty). OMGUS? Really? That is what you're going to hang your hat on? That's how you're gonna convince me (or anyone else) that your read on me is genuine and not because I've been on your slot for most of the game?

Absolutely no progression in your reads at all...and in fact, I would argue there are regressions.

But, by now you should know, that I'm not arguing with a scumread. It's not you I have to convince that you're scum, you know the truth either way. It is everyone else I have to convince.

If you are interested in discussing reads with me, by all means, let's go. But don't pretend you've published an amazing citation on why you think I'm scum.

[T-Bone]

Well the only one you've even begun to expand upon is your read on me, and you cited 'passive voting' and 'OMGUS'...and also you repeatedly act as if I am pushing a wagon on you in retaliation, when I have been pushing a wagon on your slot since near the beginning on the game. It's hard for me to take you seriously when two of those things that you have said are not true in the context of the game.

I'm not looking for your reads to agree with me or not. I don't even care if you scumread me or not. I'm looking for your reasons behind them. So far, you haven't expanded on much. And it's not that I expect you to suddeny have a great handle on this game, since you just replaced in. But I was expecting something, anything, to show me that you are looking for scum. If you want to expand on any of your lean scums, that would be a good start. I don't need quotes or anything just a "I think this person could be scum for these reasons". And don't use buzzwords like OMGUS for example. That's the quickest way to draw on my fakedar.

Maybe you've explained things to yourself, maybe you've explained things to your team...but you haven't explained things to us.

[T-Bone]

SNIP

What, why does your team need to justify picking you? It's an excellent pick. This is weird.

SNIP

And...you're questioning why a team would pick Titus as a replacement? What the hell?

I would have reached out to Titus for our team when we needed a replacement, had not several users (including Davsto, our eventual replacement) reach out to us first. How is this a question?

This is such a weird thing to question. More importantly, how is this alignment relevant?

[T-Bone]

@T-Bone: You hate meta but not everyone else does. Titus is a better scum player than a town player. Her presence is immediately suspect. I didn't really take it into account though because there's much more evidence from Eddie/Transcend than "Hmm I wonder why they put Titus here".

But you townread the slot, so why are you concerned by this?

@T-Bone: By your own admission, you consider Titus to be a GOOD Scum hunter. Now why would Scum let a GOOD Scum hunter live that long?

Oh you know better than this. The calculation of who to kill is more complex than 'let's kill the good players'.

[T-Bone]

He'll be able to rack up another 200 posts before deadline. He loves it.

[T-Bone]

...so, that does nothing for you in terms of UCV's alignment?

[T-Bone]

Bulba, Elena... Let's resolve Titus and Math's alignments so we don't have to repeat Day 1.

On Titus, I think by now you know what I don't like about her slot, so review those points, and talk to me about it.

On Math...there are two things I am wondering as we go into it. What is your take on Math's reaction following his lie about his vote on me regarding Eddie's case? Do you feel Math has any real reads that don't include meta as the primary motivator? (this speaks to using meta to inform a read, a sort of town thing, vs. using meta to justify a read, a scum thing). I've been going back and forth on that. I gave him a lot of town points for his reaction to my first question tbh.

I'd like to force players in the periphery into the spotlight more.

SNIP

First, I agree tangentially about your point on a scum role PM, but maybe not in the same way. If your team has a scum role PM, you have to prioritize winning that game. You need a scum role PM to win Team Mafia (it's the easier route if scum win one of the games). That's how my team won last time, despite lack-luster town performances.

I was asking about UCV, because it looked like to me you were making the case that he was scum...because he flipped-flopped his reads in a way that didn't make sense. I'm not sure you clarified for me why in your mind that makes him town. Because someone else on his team is scum? Whether that is true or not, that doesn't make sense to me.

[T-Bone]

You were the Fitz counterwagon, so that was probably unnecessary.

[T-Bone]

Okay buddy, I wouldn't go that far.

[T-Bone]

Sheesh, way to wipe out any credibility you had entering the day.

[T-Bone]

Vote: Mathdino

[T-Bone]

Vote: Mathdino

I want to vote this too but my whole team thinks Math is town.

Yeah well, mostly he needs to slow his roll...since he just claimed to have targeted the night kill, and proceeded to trash any credibility he might have had as the counterwagon to Fitz. I also am of the belief that Titus isn't the lynch today, hence why I have let loose.

[T-Bone]

I'm alive because I hardcrumbed that I would 1v1 Bins today. See my end of day. This gambit was planned from the moment I decided to try to dodge the NK by reverse pocketing Bins.

A50 was likely killed because
1. He was my hardest defender
2. Brings suspicion onto Bins (A50 being alive wouldn't actually successfully push Bins so)
3. I would never have let him get lynched

Other than that, I don't see any obvious NKA suspects.

I'm working with the assumption that there was a token busser and a token counterwagoner. I had a ton of sitechat with KMD about this but he's not online so I can't pull up his fkin chatlog -_-

Brb recreating that VCA

can you stop with #3 already, you're not the only one playing this game. And wtf does #1 even mean as a reason to kill A50?

He can stop with the whole theatre tbh.

[T-Bone]

This is gonna be another day of me reexplaining myself over and over. No more gambits from here on, I promise you that.

MATHDINO'S CRAZY PLAN

I am actually a fruit vendor. Originally I was just gonna vend A50 and confirm myself and leave it at that. Mod meta very lightly clears me. Weak power role for a 3v12 distribution.

I softclaimed power role somewhere when I was like "You overestimate how easy it'll be to get me lynched". Whoever's scum clearly didn't see that. Implicates the people who weren't active at the time because that's a really fucking obvious PR claim.

Halfway through D1, I started townreading A50 and scumreading Bins. I decided I would try to dodge the nightkill by explicitly stonewalling Bins and "reverse pocketing" her for the day because I knew she likes bussing. Then the idea would be to claim Loyal Fruit Vendor, imply I targeted Bins, and see if she pauses and claims she received fruit anyway.

Her actual reaction (with no time to actual contact her team or her scumbuddy) heavily indicates town.

A50 was clearly down with my gambits the entirety of D1, and he and I work extremely well together, so I fruit vended him because I knew he would see what I was doing and keep his mouth shut.

I wrote up a fruit vendor claim in my team PT. The original version had something like "If she doesn't confirm me, I lynch" which would indicate to A50 that I didn't want him to claim he got fruit. I've been online constantly in the past 2 hours waiting for the thread to unlock so I could post my claim before A50 claimed he got fruit.

When A50 died I erased the "she" part and just went with it anyway.

That is the entire truth.

If this is the truth, then slow your roll a bit, ya?

[T-Bone]

Well, your reaction screams "I need to explain away why I targeted the player who got killed". Seems more like you are interested in explaining yourself to a tracker or watcher to me.

[T-Bone]

I don't think you had as much to do with any of those things as you think you did.

[T-Bone]

Dude, you have 500 posts and the rest of us have 125 a pop. If anything, things are getting done in spite of you, because you're a huge barrier. No one can talk around you, no one can interact with anyone else without you getting in the way. Then, you came into Day 2 bragging about how obvious town you were, and decided that because of that you had this huge clout to try and 'pull a gambit'. These are not things that are particularly endearing. Now, they are great if you are scum...not so much if you are town.

And you also targeted a now dead player. The iceberg you are trying to stand on continues to melt. That's why I suggested you slow your roll. I have tried very hard to not complain about your volume posting, because I get why you might feel compelled to do it as town. But now I am asking, if you are town, chill the fuck out. I'm not asking you to change who you are, change your playstyle, or anything like that, just chill out. If you are town stop overtly acting like scum. Why should I or anyone else think that you aren't at this point?

[T-Bone]

I don't believe anything about your role, nor did I say I believed anything about your role. That's not the point.

But you are posting ridiculous things. Saying things like "I knew either me or A50 would be killed" is either arrogant as fuck, or fake as fuck. Which should I take it as?

Saying "I'm gonna gambit Bins because I am practically confirmed town" is arrogant as fuck, or fake as fuck. Which should I take it as?

Being very theatric about the fact that you targeted A50 last night. Why should I not consider that you might pull that stunt because you were hedging against a tracker or watcher claim?

For that matter, why shouldn't we consider that you're a scum fruit vendor covering for that?

And why...when you do ridiculous things why shouldn't I question your credibility?

I don't care if you were the counterwagon to scum. Why should I give you standing to be scummy in the way you have opened Day 2 when you haven't flipped? You are confirmed as nothing to me.

I'm going to question scummy things 10 times out of 10. If you wouldn't do them, I wouldn't spend so much time questioning them. I'm not trying to make you mad, I am trying to determine your alignment. For some reason you have this radar in your head that goes "well, I haven't done anything scummy recently...how can I change that?" and BAM you gloat about how obviously town you are and make ridiculous assertions...and BAM you decide to pull a fakeclaiming stunt on Bins and BAM oh by the way you targeted the dead townie, in case a tracker or watcher saw it.

What am I supposed to think?

[T-Bone]

I'm actually not trying to get you lynched. I'm trying to get on the same page with you, and you are determined to make that impossible lol

[T-Bone]

Much better.

If you noticed me on Day 1...the last thing I said was 'Bulba, Elena, my top townreads, can we sort Math tomorrow so we get his lynch or not out of the way'. Now, I said this expecting Fitz to flip town, and for the game to remain the status quo from my perspective.

I don't know if you noticed, but I was wrong about Fitz.

Which makes it pretty important for me to decide whether my townreads are still townreads and stick with them, to decide whether my scumreads are still scumreads and stick with them.

I'm just following through on my own plan, albeit without the input of Bulba or Elena. You're the one with a million posts...I have to grab your attention, not the other way around.

For what it is worth, what changed my mind on you yesterday was your reaction to being caught in a lie, and your reads that didn't entirely rely on meta.

Both of those things I had to push you for to get. Make sense?

[T-Bone]

Note to T-Bone: All the people so far in this game who went out of their way to ask people's teammates for townreads are town. Your logic on that isn't just flawed, it's provably wrong.

Okay? When did I suggest otherwise, and what does it have to do with what I just posted?

[T-Bone]

But your constant request of players in this game to get players not in this game to say something about you is so very hollow and low quality. The players in this game have nearly their full attention here, the players not in this game don't. I'm not discounting that players in other games aren't able to follow along. But, they aren't following along as closely as they would were they players. Outside of Team Mafia you know that fishing for townreads would not be looked upon lightly. And here you are, fishing for town reads from players who don't have their full attention on you. And I know you know this...which means they are more likely just to give a gut read. But here's the part I don't like. You're fishing for townreads from players not in this game...to influence players in this game into thinking you are town.

sup
i'm taking a potshot at your scumhunting philosophy

Also, NSG pointed out that sheep actually also fished for townreads in Alisae's game. He asked me, NSG, and Tora to read him.

Hilariously, NSG and I talked it over for about a minute and our convo was basically
"Tell sheep he's scum."
"Yeah he's scum."

So I admit that I'm wrong on that one point. But it also goes to show that players are weirdly accurate about who can read them well.

And he quotes this in post #2210 when it isn't even a topic of discussion. The most important part of my question was 'what does it have to do with what I just posted?'

[T-Bone]

Except I have repeatedly expressed that I also want town!Math to play to the best of his abilities? You're attributing things to me that I haven't said nor do I think. I think you have it in your head that 'Bone hates my playstyle' and you're just reacting instead of reading. I don't hate your playstyle, and the only thing I criticize is your plays. So, come to me when you stop attributing the hate to me.

[T-Bone]

It's unreasonable for me to question the alignment of a player who is jumping up and down going 'look at how obviously town I am"? It's unreasonable for me to question the alignment of a player who makes a fakeclaim on another player in the name of a gambit? Is that sincerely what you believe?

[T-Bone]

I still don't think Elena is scum, so Keychain, be the voice of this read...why?

[T-Bone]

SNIP

I knew about your idea of the LLD/Elena connection, I wanted to see what else stood out to you, if anything. If nothing else, that's fine, not everything a player does is alignment indicative.

[T-Bone]

Pretty sure Eddie has been banging the tired "T-Bone is scum" thing...since both his successors also banged it.

[T-Bone]

Oh my gosh please stop playing the victim every time I say something you do in THIS game is scummy. (Which at this point is several days old so you think youd be over it) It has nothing to do with your playstyle, so please stop trotting out the victim complex. For someone who isn't concerned what people think of you...you spend a ton of time worrying about it.

I know what I need to do at this stage, and I'm doing it. I had a bad read, so I am deferring to reading and conversing with other players atm.

If you think that makes me scum, by all means do something about it. If you don't, there is no reason to complain. I certainly don't want to hear about what you think I am or not doing to your satisfaction. You're doing the same thing to me you think I keep doing to you.

[T-Bone]

If you think I am scum, do something about it. I don't know why you are looking for permission from other players. Titusslot hasn't ever looked for permission to scumread me. If Titus is town, that goes a long way towards why for me.

[T-Bone]

Radja, can you tell me what led you to decide to lolhammer?

[T-Bone]

Aeronaut has been prodded.

Prodding Titus, ChannelDelibird, Aeronaut

Prodding Aeronaut, UC Voyager

Three prods may result in being replaced.

Request force-replacement of Aeronaut, and more enforcement of activity requirements

.

He's flaked from most things onsite by now and his and UCV's lack of presence is actively hurting the game and the tournament. This is supposed to be the event of the year.

On the bright side, UCV is one prod from replacement, so that's nice.

If his thoughts are his own and not Creature's, and he makes it clear that both he and Creature know nothing about the gamestate, I'm treating that as a scumclaim.

I would like to second the sentiment of more enforced activity requirements, please and thank you mhsmith0.

[T-Bone]

Also, most players are pretty good about not screaming that they are scum in every post. It's usually just a couple of instances where the player needs to diverge from a town mindset to accomplish something anyway...

I meant to ask. Keychain...or anyone else with a flipped scum partner...what was your/their reaction to playing as scum against 12 townies?

[T-Bone]

Do you want me to vote Titus now or...?

I'm essentially not voting as I consider things, but I can move it if it makes you feel better. Just say the word dude, I don't feel like arguing over this dumb stuff anymore.

[T-Bone]

I feel similar to you Dunker, don't feel bad.

[T-Bone]

But despite that, I don't want to lynch Math, because he's boxed himself in with his claim if he's scum, so we don't need to flip him today. I don't want to lynch Titus today for similar reasons. It's not that I think either are necessarily a lock for town, I just think there is a good chance their alignments can be proven in short order without a lynch today (which if town, that means we avoid mislynches). As much as I find both players scummy for independent reasons, I hate the idea of flipping players when it can be avoided if they aren't scum.

Don't want to lynch Elena, Bins, or Bulba. Elena and Bulba I'm lock step with, so either they've gone to great lengths to pocket me (which I highly doubt) or they think the same way I do because they are also town. I don't know if I'm holding onto Bins as a vanity or not...I just don't see it.

I thought at the beginning of the day I might want to pursue the group of Dunker, Keychain, and Radja. Similar players in my head based on the gamestate...but they also largely say things I agree with and am satisfied with.

So that leaves me with a group that includes CDB, UCV, Aero, and chesskid. Aka the 'compromise lynch group'...and that bothers me in of itself. It feels too easy to lynch within this group. I don't think chess has done anything particularly alignment indicative, certainly nothing I would go 'look at how scum this is'. CDB when he occasionally pops in says things I like. UCV and Aero are low hanging fruit that just about every player has in the periphery of their lynch pool, because their contributions to the game have been nonexistent. One or both could be scum, but I don't have a game relevant reason beyond 'they actively avoid anything and everything except to occasionally vote'. Is that enough?

So this is what I have been mulling over. The players I think are most scummy are not optimal lynches from my POV (which I know, is weird to worry about). So now I have to decide do I think they are scummy just because they do scummy things, or am I overreading them? Then I have a large group of players who say things I agree with. I'm confident if any of those players are scum, they aren't doing it on purpose (that is to say, none of them set out with the express purpose of "making Bone agree with me"). Then the last group, in which so-called 'compromise reads' always make me feel icky. Are we as a playerlist keeping them here because we actually have the game solved?

I feel like I've typed a whole lot of nothing, but I suppose it is better to put it out there than to continue to hem and haw over in my head.

[T-Bone]

No, you're fine.

[T-Bone]

Just from my PoV. "I think I know something" works too if that helps you.

[T-Bone]

...huh?

[T-Bone]

Man, I really do not like when you turn into cheekyscum!Math.

[T-Bone]

thank u t-bone something u said was just what I was looking for

...huh?

It's unclear cause Math has posts everywhere lol...

But this "huh?" was for you, Chess. I do not know what I said that was what you were looking for, so I'd like to know.

[T-Bone]

Math I am under the impression you are ok with voting everyone in this game

EXCEPT THE PEOPLE YOU CLAIM TO SCUMREAD

I laughed obnoxiously loud over this. Thanks a lot.

[T-Bone]

thank u t-bone something u said was just what I was looking for

...huh?

It's unclear cause Math has posts everywhere lol...

But this "huh?" was for you, Chess. I do not know what I said that was what you were looking for, so I'd like to know.

[T-Bone]

@Keychain

Can you please have RC clarify why he thought TBone was town and why we shouldn't turbo lynch him for trying to shout my mislynch as he argued that he knew me the best?

Wow, misrep of the year candidate?

[T-Bone]

Yes please, tell me where I said "I know Titus best".

No, I said, and I quote "She's a fairly transparent player when it comes to her alignment in my opinion..."

Which I maintain she is.

[T-Bone]

You know what?

Vote: Titus

I felt like I could move on today and let the game incriminate her or absolve her, but then she reminds me why she is the best candidate for scum in this playerlist.

Also please, if you feel like typing the phrase OMGUS, please follow that up with swapping out with a teammate if you're gonna insult the intelligence of this playerlist like that.

[T-Bone]

Oh, maybe. If that's the case then I retract #2554 and #2555.

Being accused of things I am not actually doing is probably my biggest pet peeve in mafia. All I ask if I'm going to be scumread, that I am scumread for things I am actually doing, rather than things I'm not.

[T-Bone]

And #2552 lol

[T-Bone]

@Keychain

Can you please have RC clarify why he thought TBone was town and why we shouldn't turbo lynch him for trying to shout my mislynch as he argued that he knew me the best?

Wow, misrep of the year candidate?

Him in that sentence was RC. Bad grammar on my part.

Yeah my bad and apologies.

[T-Bone]

Transcend wagon was retalitory for pushing Tbone. Scum stalled this game out since.

THIS IS FALSE

Why does town!Titus continue to say something that is easily provable to be false, so long as you take 30 seconds to read the game? (answer: town!Titus doesn't do that DUH)

I got more, but I think it is important for me to just plain point out the false things Titus says (yesterday notwithstanding).

[T-Bone]

SNIP

I do want to address you seriously...but first, can we all just appreciate the irony in this post? I'm sure you are genuinely not doing it intentionally, but I laughed out loud when I read this earlier.

BUT ANYWAY

I don't know why you have all of a sudden decided I'm not reconsider things...when you know, I've dropped you from my lynchpool for example. Whether you believe it or not, I am listening to things you are saying. The problem is...this is a two-way street. When I offered some comprehensive thoughts all you could muster was "lol these will make great for association reads when Bone flips scum".

So who's not reconsidering things again?

Because...

look i just want to see more explanations of actual scum motivation in people's scumreads. "this person is scummy because such-and-such action" is not good enough when, again, we have a scumflip

i want associations and scum motivation

explain eddie/transcend/titus from a scum perspective

explain elena from a scum perspective

and if you really wanna open up this can of worms, explain my actions from a scum perspective

chesskid is a ludicrous scumread so i'm not even gonna ask for an explanation there; there's no chance he doesn't try to control this game if he swapped into a widely townread scumslot
literally no scum motivation in his ISO outside of being wrong

Scum motivation for Eddie and Titus have been explained to you by different people...just as an example. The folks scumreading Elena have given you examples of associations. And you've dismissed when people have called you scum for things you have done. I'm not gonna argue with you about it, but please, if you want to disagree with other players over a read, stop insulting us and being so dismissive and disingenuous.

Now...I don't want to argue with you about anything above this line. The first part of the post is for you to hopefully, internally digest. The rest is for us to discuss.

SNIP

SNIP

I like some of this (I don't like your townsorting based off of this, but I am found of the conclusion pre-2584). Just want to throw that out there. I'd like to cross-reference this with something...if you'd like to indulge me I'm going to commit a sin that I'm sure Titus is gonna scream scum at me for.

Why was A50 killed? And I know your answer will be "she was obviously town"...except she wasn't...and she wasn't read as such. So indulge me. Scum kill a player for three reasons. Their worthlessness of a mislynch (being universally townread)...their role...and their reads. Even if you personally think she was town...she was definitely in potential mislynch territory. She also claimed vanilla, so that's out. Leaves us with her reads.

Her scumreads include...myself (I think, this is the least clear so you tell me), Bins, Chesskid, Titus, and Elena.

I point this out because minus Bulba/Bins, the association pool is the same.

So let's open the can of worms known as night-kill analysis. An A50 kill is good or bad for scum!Bins?

An A50 kill is good or bad for scum!Bone?

For scum!chesskid?

For scum!Titus?

For scum!Elena?

For scum!Bulba?

My thoughts are...makes no sense, makes no sense(I'm biased, but I feel that A50 is a sub-optimal kill for me), doesn't matter, makes sense, makes sense, and doesn't matter in that order.

i'm already doing that t-bone lol

why does scum!titus do stupid shit like that

titus is supposed to be good as scum

and additionally has a partner and an entire team who can tell her not to be stupid

so why is she acting more like a jester than actual scum trying to lay low

Math! You did it again!

"Why does SCUMPLAYER do X?"

...you are townread her for it...right? So....why is misrepping the game good for scum!Titus? Mathdino townreads her. Compare and contrast for when YOU misread the game on Day 1. You reacted much differently. You admitted to a mistake. Titus doubles down on the falsehoods.

[T-Bone]

I also say all that recognizing that in the same vein of 'Why does SCUMPLAYER do X?"..."why does SCUMPLAYER kill TOWNPLAYER?" also has the same answer.

[T-Bone]

that's because i don't like to be pants-on-head town

"lynch all liars" is a massively outdated tell that tbh probably never worked in the first place

towns are stupid, humans are weird, and if anything, crazy-ass trajectories are more town indicative than scum indicative

i townread her for it because scum is fundamentally better at playing to their wincon because they know who's on their team

scum doesn't spew shit like that and then not participate most of the day

and titus, by all accounts, is significantly better at scum than she is at town

you're still by-the-book scumhunting

...did you not read my post? Like, any of them? Where I explain this over and over?

If anyone is "by-the-book" scumhunting it is YOU for continually to hang your hat on "why would SCUMPLAYER do X?"

re: Eddie: scum motivation there was much MUCH clearer on the assumption that LLD was town. it's much harder to explain eddie's actions with LLD scum. that early 1v1 just drew shittons of attention to the both of them.
re: Titus: titus is doing basically nothing to further scum wincon if she is scum

re: Titus. Are you townreading her for this? You are? I would call that "furthering her scum wincon". You have a big hand in whether we lynch her or not...certainly making you townread her furthers her win condition? Isn't that something you can concede?

re: Elena: the associations so far have convinced me she's not locktown, but i'm mad unconvinced that her ISO is inconsistent with town. but i'm still trying to evaluate that, hence devil's advocate

re: NKA: as far as i can tell, the most obvious player to benefit from A50's death is bins. A50 was unlikely to tunnel the others
i have, however, killed my scumreads as scum just because they weren't viable mislynches
i disagree that A50 was viable, and a LLD/A50 scumteam was ESPECIALLY not viable
plus A50 is known for doing weird claim gambits as PR, so it's also possible someone told the scumteam that A50 was a likely PR
my team was actually pretty fucking convinced A50 was a PR in hiding; given that i softclaimed PR we were basically chatting all night about how the NK would probably be me or him (which in hindsight makes it really stupid i fruit vended him but w/e)

going solely off of NKA, the players in your list i would say benefit from A50's death are, in descending order:
Bins > T-Bone > UCV (personal add on) > Bulba > Elena > chesskid > Titus

i just don't see town A50 walking into today arguing that elena/LLD was the scumteam
or that eddie/LLD was the scumteam

re: re: Elena. I don't think she is scum, I am pointing out she is in the pool you've come up with, and the pool A50 had.

re: A50 viability. She was definitely in the lynchpool Day 1, and I think would have remained just outside that pool today (similar to the position you hold ) I'm not discounting the possibility that she was feared to be faking VT for a PR...I just think looking at her reads is more productive.

I don't agree with you on Bins...I think an A50 kill makes Bins look bad and thus wouldn't be a good kill for her. Take this as you will, A50 would not have been my kill. If you really want to indulge me, I think scum!Bone's best kills might have been a CDB, or a Keychain (and this goes into my theory of playing scum I don't want to get into). But, I'm fine if you think it benefits me for the purpose of this exercise. I wanna skip UCV for the moment, he's not on your Fitz-list. For Bulba and Chesskid, I don't think the kill matter much for their slots. I think it works for Elena because of her position in the game, she has some players vocally townreading her, and that's a protection against killing someone who might want to lynch her...and it works for Titus for similar reasons. I'd go as far as to reverse your > signs with < signs (and swap Elena and Chesskid).

Now, I don't bring this up to debate which kills make the most sense, because that's a circular argument that only has one correct answer that we won't find out until post-game. I had been mulling A50's reads in my head...so when you produced a list of associations you got from reading Fitz, it piqued my interest for two reasons. 1, you actually added Titus and Chesskid to your pool (even though you did confirm bias them lower on the list in your next post) and 2, this list matched A50's reads for the most part.

[T-Bone]

Yeah well, you didn't appear on my Valentine's ballot either!

[T-Bone]

More scumreads? All anyone has done is reinforce their reads on her from Day 1. Nothing has changed, the same people that townread her townread her, the same people that scumread her scumread her.

You are presuming that things have changed...but nothing really has.

[T-Bone]

You to them
T-Bone: 90.84% (46.72%)


Sry bb it's not mutual

I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU GOSH YOU'RE SO VAIN GOOD THING WE AREN'T COMPATIBLE :p

[T-Bone]

Transcend wagon was retalitory for pushing Tbone. Scum stalled this game out since.

THIS IS FALSE

Why does town!Titus continue to say something that is easily provable to be false, so long as you take 30 seconds to read the game? (answer: town!Titus doesn't do that DUH)

I got more, but I think it is important for me to just plain point out the false things Titus says (yesterday notwithstanding).

You know full well that I don't read on replacing in and just use the vcs to do. Show me what the skirt skirt/transcend wagon was for rather than just saying I'm wrong. If it takes 30 seconds to do, then correcting my narrative shouldn't take that long.

It's almost like you don't have a team who could update you on the gamestate when you replaced in...

It's almost like you (Titus) don't care because you've repeated this falsehood over and over again, and have been corrected multiple times by multiple people.

But here's the timeline in a nutshell.

I (and others) scumread Skirt early. In the course of trying to convince people Skirt is scum, both Bulba and I talk about Skirt in a way he doesn't like, so to make a long story short, he gets upset and drops a vote on me (despite saying that I hadn't posted enough to earn a read). Math doesn't actually read this post and assumes the post is a massive case against me and also votes...and that's how this vanity wagon exists for most of the day until Math finally goes back to read the post. The agon composition on Skirt/Transcend before you replaced in was based on how Skirt played mostly. The wagon on me came after, and our respective wagons had nothing to do with each other.

Now, I appreciate that we were posting at such a high volume that the vote counts don't tell the full story, and you could glean an incorrect snapshot on the gamestate. What I don't appreciate is A) your team didn't correct you when two members of your team were in this game and B) you've been saying this since you replaced in, and every time you say it you get told "no, this isn't what happened" and every time until now you've ignored it.

So now we're supposed to believe that you're interested in getting a correct view of the gamestate? Because you have yet to show interest in doing so since you replaced in. Because it took Math to also tell you for you to even consider the alternative.

No, I don't believe it. And no one else should either. Titus is clearly and knowingly trying to force my mislynch...and is only feigning interest in the truth all of a sudden because his town-shield has corrected him.
@Math: THIS is scum-motivation based on the ACTIONS Titus has taken in this game. This is the scum-motivation I feel I repeatedly point out when I call this slot scum. All the way since Skirt has this slot said false things to push a narrative. I feel like you'd have to think very poorly of all of their town games to think they are making these mistakes on purpose. I don't think so. I think Titus would only play to the best of her abilities. Do you think all three are bad at town? Because you have three points of evidence to show they are scum. Your association test with Fitz, A50's readslist, and Titus continually being scum-driven in her actions.

Like, if you don't want to lynch Titus today, I understand that you have professed stronger reads on other players, and I buy that town!Math is married to his stronger scumreads based on the gamestate. But at the very least all this has to at least move the needle for town!Math right?

[T-Bone]

TBone, stop repeating the same nonsense and actually use the votes.

You keep saying votes don't tell the story. They do. Votes say what players value.

Mathdino doesn't get that either. You seem to think that XYZ words change the VCs. Our slot has had a consistent scumread on you and got wagoned for it. You picked fights with town Math and town me trying to force your view of the gamestate which at best is objectively wrong to where scum want to save you early day 1. You got into a shouting match with Mathdino today. That's all you have done.

Radja has zero interest in doing anything other than sheep you because there is a strong pattern of him consistently sheeping to vote whatever town wagon is on the table. I have been leaving the possibility that this is tvt and you are honorary scum since rarely (but it does happen) do two scum sit on a vanity wagon with at least one mislynch on the table.

Unbelievable.

Who believes this garbage? Titus is literally trying to re-write the history of the game to try and paint the wagon on his slot as "retaliatory". THIS IS FALSE.

[T-Bone]

Fuck it.

VOTE: Radja

TBone may be an ineffective arrogant man trying to tell me how to play but that is typical of him. He's also not in sheep scum spots. Scumsheep him.

SPEAKING OF RETALITORY VOTES LOLOLOLOL

[T-Bone]

Ignore him.

The important thing here is Titus is re-writing history to push mislynches. She couldn't get traction on mine, so she is moving elsewhere.

[T-Bone]

Chesskid, you're sheeping a player who is LYING to get a lynch. Who is trying to re-write the history of this game to paint a narrative.

So talk to me when you stop doing that.

[T-Bone]

Then explain to me your statement where you said that your (Eddie/Transcend) wagon was a retaliation to mine...

When yours happened first.

Explain to me your comment about how my vote on Transcend was an OMGUS....when I was scumreading your slot and voting your slot well before Eddie or Transcend did. Explain to me that with the votes.

Because that is where I am accusing you of re-writing history.

[T-Bone]

Then explain to me your statement where you said that your (Eddie/Transcend) wagon was a retaliation to mine...

When yours happened first.

Explain to me your comment about how my vote on Transcend was an OMGUS....when I was scumreading your slot and voting your slot well before Eddie or Transcend did. Explain to me that with the votes.

Because that is where I am accusing you of re-writing history.

I already did. Repeatedly.

We stepped through skirt skirt and Transcend iso. Skirt got votes for LLD suspicion. Transcend appears and pushes you, more heat on him. I quoted mhsmith0 posts. I quoted the tied wagons.

At this point, you are not going to convince me your early game was anything other than proscum due to the wagon ties.

This is not an explanation.

How is my vote and scumread a retaliation on Eddie/Transcend when I HAD IT FIRST?

Titus' answer of "well yours was fake until we voted you" is

Titus re-writing history to push a narrative.

She also can't explain her comment of the Eddie/Transcend wagon being a retaliation to the wagon on me...because that also happened first.

Why is she doubling down on something that everyone knows isn't true?

[T-Bone]

Math, get back here and explain to me if you still townread Titus when she is doubling down on a narrative we both know isn't true. Tell me that moves to needle for you at the very least.

[T-Bone]

Then explain to me your statement where you said that your (Eddie/Transcend) wagon was a retaliation to mine...

When yours happened first.

Explain to me your comment about how my vote on Transcend was an OMGUS....when I was scumreading your slot and voting your slot well before Eddie or Transcend did. Explain to me that with the votes.

Because that is where I am accusing you of re-writing history.

I already did. Repeatedly.

We stepped through skirt skirt and Transcend iso. Skirt got votes for LLD suspicion. Transcend appears and pushes you, more heat on him. I quoted mhsmith0 posts. I quoted the tied wagons.

At this point, you are not going to convince me your early game was anything other than proscum due to the wagon ties.

This is not an explanation.

How is my vote and scumread a retaliation on Eddie/Transcend when I HAD IT FIRST?

Titus' answer of "well yours was fake until we voted you" is

Titus re-writing history to push a narrative.

She also can't explain her comment of the Eddie/Transcend wagon being a retaliation to the wagon on me...because that also happened first.

Why is she doubling down on something that everyone knows isn't true?

You aren't the one retaliating. You're valuable to the scumteam. Same with LLD. The shade to protect you and your noise.

Chesskid knows I am correct and you are wrong. That's why he is with me. He was voting LLD while you've engaged in ego battles with my slot and town. Appeal to masses is a logical fallacy.

Don't change your story. I can quote the post where you say these things.

In fact I will.

We're not. I am townreading Dunker for his vote on TBone

because the wagon on Transcend seems to be retalitory for Transcend catching Tbone.

No, the Transcend wagon happened long before the T-Bone wagon had, ergo, the Transcend wagon could not be in retaliation for "Transcend catching T-Bone".

Bonus points, the scumread on me originated with Skirt...so Transcend wasn't even involved in pushing me, therefore I could not retaliate against Transcend for "catching me."

My take on TBone is unchanged from yesterday. Now with Fitz flipping scum, there's more evidence that the wagon on my slot was in retaliation for each of us seeing the vapid, accusatory tone in TBone's posting.

Again...the wagon on her slot was first and persisted throughout the day. It was in retaliation of nothing. (nor was it the counterwagon to Fitz, Math was)

Transcend wagon was retalitory for pushing Tbone.

Just in case it isn't clear. Titus has repeatedly said this particular falsehood, and doubled down on it each time.

So my question to the masses again. Why is Titus doubling down on this false narrative if she isn't scum?

Don't you think town!Titus realizes her mistake by now and corrects it?

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Titus

It's not a bad D1 lynch and I'm for it. I agree that I don't think town!Titus comes in here guns blazing at me with such conviction before reading the game.

Man, I told you this was Scum by play and not by any other convoluted process!

Either fitz is Scum and Bins is trying to save him, or Titus is and she's distancing by voting there when the wagon is cooling off, and I can't tell for sure but I'm now leaning the former.

I initiated the Fitz wagon initially and cooled off later.

Lol nope

Oh wow did she seriously claim this?

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Titus

It's not a bad D1 lynch and I'm for it. I agree that I don't think town!Titus comes in here guns blazing at me with such conviction before reading the game.

Man, I told you this was Scum by play and not by any other convoluted process!

Either fitz is Scum and Bins is trying to save him, or Titus is and she's distancing by voting there when the wagon is cooling off, and I can't tell for sure but I'm now leaning the former.

I initiated the Fitz wagon initially and cooled off later.

Lol nope

Oh wow did she seriously claim this?

I did vote Fitz first. An ISO shows that.

Yes. Skirt voted for LLD for a grand total of 15 minutes!

[T-Bone]

tbone.

Radja tried to give themselves towncred for hammering.

Why are you harping on one and not the other

Why are you letting Titus go unchallenged?

She is now claiming credit for the LLD wagon. Something she and her slot had 0% to do with.

And I did harp on Radja for his hammer tyvm. Do I need to quote that exchange to prove it, or can you just take my word for it?

[T-Bone]

Then explain to me your statement where you said that your (Eddie/Transcend) wagon was a retaliation to mine...

When yours happened first.

Explain to me your comment about how my vote on Transcend was an OMGUS....when I was scumreading your slot and voting your slot well before Eddie or Transcend did. Explain to me that with the votes.

Because that is where I am accusing you of re-writing history.

I already did. Repeatedly.

We stepped through skirt skirt and Transcend iso. Skirt got votes for LLD suspicion. Transcend appears and pushes you, more heat on him. I quoted mhsmith0 posts. I quoted the tied wagons.

At this point, you are not going to convince me your early game was anything other than proscum due to the wagon ties.

This is not an explanation.

How is my vote and scumread a retaliation on Eddie/Transcend when I HAD IT FIRST?

Titus' answer of "well yours was fake until we voted you" is

Titus re-writing history to push a narrative.

She also can't explain her comment of the Eddie/Transcend wagon being a retaliation to the wagon on me...because that also happened first.

Why is she doubling down on something that everyone knows isn't true?

You aren't the one retaliating. You're valuable to the scumteam. Same with LLD. The shade to protect you and your noise.

Chesskid knows I am correct and you are wrong. That's why he is with me. He was voting LLD while you've engaged in ego battles with my slot and town. Appeal to masses is a logical fallacy.

Don't change your story. I can quote the post where you say these things.

In fact I will.

We're not. I am townreading Dunker for his vote on TBone

because the wagon on Transcend seems to be retalitory for Transcend catching Tbone.

No, the Transcend wagon happened long before the T-Bone wagon had, ergo, the Transcend wagon could not be in retaliation for "Transcend catching T-Bone".

Bonus points, the scumread on me originated with Skirt...so Transcend wasn't even involved in pushing me, therefore I could not retaliate against Transcend for "catching me."

My take on TBone is unchanged from yesterday. Now with Fitz flipping scum, there's more evidence that the wagon on my slot was in retaliation for each of us seeing the vapid, accusatory tone in TBone's posting.

Again...the wagon on her slot was first and persisted throughout the day. It was in retaliation of nothing. (nor was it the counterwagon to Fitz, Math was)

Transcend wagon was retalitory for pushing Tbone.

Just in case it isn't clear. Titus has repeatedly said this particular falsehood, and doubled down on it each time.

So my question to the masses again. Why is Titus doubling down on this false narrative if she isn't scum?

Don't you think town!Titus realizes her mistake by now and corrects it?

It's not a falsehood. Our wagon started as RVS. Then retalitory. We disagree. You refuse to reasses your play. I have. That's why we lynch Radja.

So you're telling me, the guy who placed the vote, that my vote was RVS? GTFOOH That's not disagreement. That is me telling the truth, the verifyable truth, and you pushing a narrative.

You're not reevaluating shit. Too many people are unwilling to lynch me. If not for that fact you'd still be pushing for my mislynch.

When you stop doubling down on things that have been proven to not be true, I will reassess. If you seriously want me to take you seriously, that's what you have to do.

You need to stop saying that a Eddie/Transcend/You wagon was in retaliation for anything. That's not true.

You need to stop claiming any credit for the LLD/Fitz scumlynch. You had nothing to do with it.

But I suspect you're going to double down on both, so we are done here.

[T-Bone]

tbone.

Radja tried to give themselves towncred for hammering.

Why are you harping on one and not the other

Why are you letting Titus go unchallenged?

She is now claiming credit for the LLD wagon. Something she and her slot had 0% to do with.

And I did harp on Radja for his hammer tyvm. Do I need to quote that exchange to prove it, or can you just take my word for it?

because cases are dumb and radha is scum

Well then take my word for it and vote Titus.

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Titus

It's not a bad D1 lynch and I'm for it. I agree that I don't think town!Titus comes in here guns blazing at me with such conviction before reading the game.

Man, I told you this was Scum by play and not by any other convoluted process!

Either fitz is Scum and Bins is trying to save him, or Titus is and she's distancing by voting there when the wagon is cooling off, and I can't tell for sure but I'm now leaning the former.

I initiated the Fitz wagon initially and cooled off later.

Lol nope

Oh wow did she seriously claim this?

I did vote Fitz first. An ISO shows that.

Quote it

She is gonna quote Skirt's vote lololol

(a vote he held for 15 minutes!)

[T-Bone]

You don't have to! I'll do it!

VOTE: lld

VOTE: A50

LLD town after further consideration.

WOMP WOMP WOMP

[T-Bone]

@Math: THIS is scum-motivation based on the ACTIONS Titus has taken in this game. This is the scum-motivation I feel I repeatedly point out when I call this slot scum. All the way since Skirt has this slot said false things to push a narrative. I feel like you'd have to think very poorly of all of their town games to think they are making these mistakes on purpose. I don't think so. I think Titus would only play to the best of her abilities. Do you think all three are bad at town? Because you have three points of evidence to show they are scum. Your association test with Fitz, A50's readslist, and Titus continually being scum-driven in her actions.

Like, if you don't want to lynch Titus today, I understand that you have professed stronger reads on other players, and I buy that town!Math is married to his stronger scumreads based on the gamestate. But at the very least all this has to at least move the needle for town!Math right?

Every time I've seen towns lynch people for pushing wildly incorrect views of the gamestate, they flip town.

A hallmark of scum is consistency. A hallmark of town is confusion and bullshit. Whether or not they choose to own up to their bullshit is an ego/charisma question (and lol at this game assuming i have the biggest ego).

Basically, all this reads more to me like Titus doesn't know what the fuck she's doing. There's mounting pressure on her in a way that there just wasn't on me. Scum should own up to it especially if you're really obviously mainly going after her for the "lies".

There are 3 options as to how we interpret Titus:
A. Titus is confused and doesn't know what the fuck she's doing (more likely town than scum, you have to admit this)

B. Titus is confbiased and is willing to say anything to get you lynched (could be bad town or bad scum, bad because she's trying to convince people who were actually there)

C. Titus is spewing bullshit in order to get townreads and make us think (A) is happening (clearly scum)

Right now, you're pushing a (B) narrative. But earlier, when I defended Titus and asked for her scum motivation, you pointed to my townread of her and said it was (C). I don't believe it makes any sense for it to be both. Discrediting herself in such a way when she was in an actually pretty good slot would only harm her in the long run, and would ensure you never get lynched.

Basically I think you're falling into the trap of basing your reads around yourself and how players interact with you. I don't think scum-Titus here is so obsessed with your mislynch that she's willing to blow her own credibility and lie about the D1 gamestate she wasn't here for (convincing no one) in order to do it. I don't think you're THAT high-priority a mislynch.

I'm pushing C.

[T-Bone]

tbone.

Radja tried to give themselves towncred for hammering.

Why are you harping on one and not the other

Why are you letting Titus go unchallenged?

She is now claiming credit for the LLD wagon. Something she and her slot had 0% to do with.

And I did harp on Radja for his hammer tyvm. Do I need to quote that exchange to prove it, or can you just take my word for it?

not like day 2 start.

like 2 pages ago

Quote it.

[T-Bone]

tbone.

Radja tried to give themselves towncred for hammering.

Why are you harping on one and not the other

Why are you letting Titus go unchallenged?

She is now claiming credit for the LLD wagon. Something she and her slot had 0% to do with.

And I did harp on Radja for his hammer tyvm. Do I need to quote that exchange to prove it, or can you just take my word for it?

not like day 2 start.

like 2 pages ago

Quote it.

I claimed I was first, not that I get credit. I waffled because my reads were shit and I was scared of who was with me. I'll prove it.

No, he's saying Radja was claiming town credit for hammering Fitz. I don't recall Radja doing that.

[T-Bone]

Finally a break through!

[T-Bone]

Great. Go ahead and explain that Radja....because your hammer wasn't that great to begin with.

[T-Bone]

If only I could say the same to you!

[T-Bone]

I'm pushing C.

Then you have to also accept that Titus isn't actually that interested in lynching you, right? Because if she's actively just bullshitting all over the place to rack up townreads, she's putting herself in the Dunker-pool of players that are probably town but aren't useful.

I don't have an agenda behind this dialogue ftr, I'm currently still evaluating where {Radja, T-Bone, Titus, Bulbazak} stand in my head.

Well, I'm sure if more people were willing to vote for me, she wouldn't have changed targets to the other person trying to get her lynched. That's what it appears to me.

[T-Bone]

More importantly, why should I buy that Titus is a poor town player and would be unable to recognize when she is wrong, especially in the face of her townreads pointing this out?

Maybe it is an ego thing against me. But against you?

[T-Bone]

I am secretly controlling your vote muhahahahahaha

[T-Bone]

I present you my(well, mostly shea's) case on why Titus is scum
Lets start looking at previous games.

As scum, Titus tends to reach out a lot, tries to be very friendly and has a history of buddying. Here are some examples from this game:

I'm gonna read the rest of your post but...

If this is true, (and you believe this to be true) this isn't happening in this game.

[T-Bone]

you guys seem to all be collectively forgetting

that titus thinks that everyone who ever played in a slot is the same person

she's taking credit for eddie cane starting the LLD wagon

but is replacing "eddie" with "titus" and "LLD" with "fitz"

can we stop with this "titus is claiming credit for fitz" nonsense

thanks

Eddie voted LLD for all of 15 minutes on the first day of the game. Not even in the loosest sense can anyone claim credit for that.

[T-Bone]

Also, I think that 12 vs. 3 changes the calculation of 'can I afford my scumbuddy getting lynched?'

[T-Bone]

I present you my(well, mostly shea's) case on why Titus is scum
Lets start looking at previous games.

As scum, Titus tends to reach out a lot, tries to be very friendly and has a history of buddying. Here are some examples from this game:

I'm gonna read the rest of your post but...

If this is true, (and you believe this to be true) this isn't happening in this game.

Sorry, I was inviting your rebuttal, Radja.

[T-Bone]

Awww garbage town. I'm only disappointed that you also didn't put your own slot in that category, since if you're town, you have some bad reads and bad play too!

Carry on otherwise.

[T-Bone]

Just vote me Math, stop asking for permission.

[T-Bone]

It is getting tiresome from both of you. If you think I'm scum, commit to it. Stop shopping around for other lynches/mislynches.

If Titus literally pushing false narratives is not going to move the needle for your reads, then I cannot help you.

If Titus can't take 30 seconds to realize that she is pushing incorrect narratives, then she cannot be town. In order for her to be town here, she has to be playing one of the worst games in history. It assumes such a level of incompetence from both her and her team that is awful. I don't think she is capable of playing that bad, regardless of her headstrong she is. There is no way town!Titus in the face of actual and easily provable evidence would continue to double down on things that aren't true.

Like, I want to reconsider, hence why I quoted a piece of Radja. He's right. In my last experience with Titus!scum, she was the most compromising player in the world. She offered to stop volume posting, she really reached out to other players...it is completely different from what she is right now.

But how am I supposed to reconcile that when she is so manipulative right now? How am I supposed to reconcile that when I think that she is a capable player, and not capable of the incompetence she has displayed in certain situations in this game? How does that work?

[T-Bone]

They are allowing her to paint a narrative that you and I know are not true, and at the very least since he was present for it, Eddie should know is not true. He knows exactly how the early game played out, how the wagons formed, and what happened when. Why hasn't he corrected Titus on any of that?

[T-Bone]

And my point is not "I think these are bad players"...my point is for what reason would they all let this go on if they were not scum?

It took a lot of prodding (specifically you losing confidence in her), and she recanted on starting the Fitz wagon, for example. So they are clearly not completely blind with rage against scum!Bone.

That isn't what I'm saying, and either way why not both? Holy hell they are not mutually exclusive ideas. She is trying to push a mislynch, and apparently playing badly equals getting Math to townread you. I'll keep that in mind next time I draw scum against you (for real that might be your blindspot)

I am saying two things.

1) She is being manipulative, and being manipulative points to being scum. She was trying to manipulate the events of the game to get a mislynch, and she is trying to manipulate people's reads by pushing things just about everyone knows isn't true.

2) I don't think that she (or her team) is capable of doubling down on something that isn't true, once it has been demonstrated as such, because for her to be capable she'd have to be pretty incompetent, and I don't think she is. And this isn't about "Eddie controlling her". How would Eddie saying something as simple as "no, in fact my wagon happened first and could not have been a reaction to a T-Bone wagon" an example of "Eddie controlling her"?

I can buy that independent of that they might still think I'm scum. But this situation only has two explanations I am willing to accept. 1. They are incompetent or 2. she is scum. I'm not accepting #1 absent a better explanation.

[T-Bone]

Didn't you beat me as scum against me way back in the day?

Anyway, is Titus's play at all similar to Mathblade? Because like I said, I've been masonlovers with Mathblade trying to get him to drop some non-applicable VCA and he's shut me down. The possibility remains that Titus is being stubborn and Eddie is entirely competent, and unfortunately got swapped out of this game.

I think we're both going to be biased on interpreting Titus's play either way because of the players before her. I'm still townreading Transcend and I'm still townreading Eddie's D1 play in the light of LLD-scum. Like, this back-and-forth is becoming the same arguments over and over, and I fully admit I'm a little confbiased right now.

But I'm also at the point where you've tried to push more than one wagon this game that I've interpreted as essentially a policy lynch on town. You've done it to me, to A50, and (assuming Radja is town) you've offered support to Radja shading. And you interpreted Transcend playing to his town meta as the scummiest thing on earth besides me. So I think we're both pretty confbiased there.

Remind me your read on Elena?

Yes, meta-based players are incredibly easy to manipulate (:P). It was that tic-tac-toe game if I recall. (and the first sentence is just a jab, not a reflection of what I think that game was. The only reason I remember you is your avatar)

I think it is accurate to say that both Mathblade and Titus are stubborn. Is that what you think this is? Titus is so stubborn that she can't see fact from fiction? If that's the case, why did she recant the idea that she started the Fitz wagon? Certainly, this is evidence that she isn't blind with stubborn rage.

I always maintained that Eddie scummed up the slot, and that Transcend didn't do anything alignment indicative one way or the other. I questioned you on your townread of him when he was in the game because I believed that he didn't do anything to warrent it (or redeam Eddie).

Townish. Admittedly she has lost the luster I liked from her on Day 1. I can't recall anything she has contributed on Day 2, and that bothers me quite a bit. I don't feel that bothers me enough to put in potential lynch territory, but I will always read what you say, even if I don't respond.

Eddie to TBone: this isn't my game, if I wanted to still play this fully I would've let assemble or some other mediocre player come in and basically just be a proxy me. it's unfortunate I was forced to sub, but Titus is entirely capable and I'm not going to shovel my thoughts down her throat and force her to play for me. I'm already sideseat more than I like to but people keep referencing me specifically so :shrug:

im here to discuss reads with Titus and whichever of my team reads the game (jj and giga currently). I was shouting things during 4 games and mentioned a few in the 5th, but it isn't my game and not letting Titus do her thing isn't fair and isn't why my team recruited a good player. I don't agree with a lot of what she's said, but at the same time I agree even less with you pushing the narrative that she's lying and manipulating the game state. it's not right, you're significantly exaggerating, and it isn't fair for you and radja to both attack her so much for what amounts to horse puckey. if she's wrong, stop talking down to her and show her why she's wrong.

where's your teams reads? We'd like to see where your team stands in all this and if your one homogenous unit or whether you've been using this as a sounding board. your team isn't the same caliber as radjas but I don't remember you giving any info at all from them period and it's still useful. I stand by 1 scum 1 bad town in u radja, you're making it hard to see which.

Titus add on: Eddie and I disagree on things, but it is a competent team. There's a chance I'm wrong on all my reads, but I'm just not voting in my scumpool unless something shows strongly that I'm incorrect or my team convinces me otherwise. Mathdino came close by saying the VCs might be off.

@Mathdino, Mathblade is a more stubborn version of me, that has issues with townblocks they are not in. See Civ Mafia.

Okay...T-Bone to Eddie: As I just explained to Math, I don't expect you to play for Titus, and I'm not trying to pull you into this game, and I don't want you to feel like you have to have a conversation with me when you aren't here. I do expect you at the very least, when she is making things up about wagons for a portion of the game that you were present for, to correct her. Based on Titus' responses you haven't done that. You and I both know that your Day 1 wagon was the first significant one, and did not form as a reaction or retaliation to anyone, least of all the wagon on me like she contends. I respect this may be a minor detail to you, but this is something that Math and I have been arguing about for several days now...I figure you'd tell Titus something.

My team is not following my game. The last thing I said to them about this game was something that occurred on Day 1, and then I informed them that we lynched scum and I wasn't a part of it. Davsto replaced in and discussions were had about that. Yeah, I understand it is Team Mafia, it's just not a high priority for our team. It worked for us last time around, we really didn't engage with one another until games were in late stages.

re: Titus add on: And I'm not accusing you of being incompetent. Do you see where the problem is? You are saying verifiably false things. As in, things that have been proven false, things that are not open to interpretation, regardless of what you say, I'll spell it out again. Eddie's wagon was the first significant wagon of the game. That is indisputable fact. I know this is an indisputable fact, and so does Math. He thinks you're capable of that kind of incompetence, and I do not. Do you see where my disconnect is? If I think you are a capable player, then what conclusion can I come to besides that you are scum?

And I don't want to have a circular argument about your opinion that flies in the face of fact. I just want you to understand if my choices to explain your action is either A) you're playing down to your abilities or B) you're scum...I'm going to choose B every time. I will not play or act as if people are not playing to the best of their abilities. That's not who I am.

[T-Bone]

I feel more confident about the people at either end of this list.

town
Bins
CDB
Keychain
Dunkerdoodles
chesskid3
UC Voyager
Elena
Radja
Mathdino
Titus
Bulbazak
T-Bone
not town

VOTE: Bulbazak

And you're not voting your top scumread why?