Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Thestatusquo]

i didn't believe that he really found something, hence my saying that his entrance was forced (kind of like how your questions feel).

Okay, and the scum motivation behind him lying about having found something is what?

he forces a read to a) pretend like he's generating useful content and b) stagnate things by ending rvs early. moreover, i think in general a forced entrance like that is just more likely to come from self-conscious scum than from town. that's not to say that i believe that he's necessarily scum or that any of those were necessarily his strategy – just that i think it's likely enough to warrant moving my vote while we're still in rvs.

Hey guys! Back from out of town and stuff.

Don't like this post. In general, town is best served by existing the RVS as quickly as possible. So often times town pushes in RVS ARE ridiculous on face and ARE forced. I would expect a town player who is earnestly attempting to create information to read much the same as a scum player who is trying to "fake it" because definitionally we have no information to attack.

On the other hand, I find scum to have an incentive to hide in RVS and use it to be non-accountable for their actions therein. Like, for instance, saying things like "while we're still in RVS" as justification for a vote.

@lla – if i was scum i definitely would have lurked out the beginning of the game – activity is probably, for the most part, meaningless (so is everything else you mentioned).

Wifom self meta ahoyhoy.

So, VOTE: Northsidegal

[Thestatusquo]

re: the postive llamarble stuff I think posties "accommodating" stuff has more to do with their personality than with their alignment. Also, could be wrong but would be surprised if postie took a scum pm.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: sauce

policy.

[Thestatusquo]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: northsidegal

ok, on with our lives.

[Thestatusquo]

I wonder if we win by lynching EddieFenix and Marquis and Postie. Wouldn't be surprised.

Worst post of the thread so far.

What is the point of this post at all?

Having played a lot with llamarble face to face that kind of hypothetical early game sort scum team spec is not terribly out of character from him as either alignment (and I suspect is more likely to come from town.)

[Thestatusquo]

LQ is it weird that I responded to a thought you had and then you stated you were caught up and that you were open for questions but completely ignored that like the LAST POST had been a thought directed at you?

Or is it just me that I think that's weird.

Asking for four friends.

[Thestatusquo]

Is sauce an axlegreaser alt?

[Thestatusquo]

LQ is it weird that I responded to a thought you had and then you stated you were caught up and that you were open for questions but completely ignored that like the LAST POST had been a thought directed at you?

Or is it just me that I think that's weird.

Asking for four friends.

Well, it's something I can take under consideration, yeah. But IDK if you are Scum or not and as such, IDK if you are trying to manipulate things whether the info you give is legit or not. That's kinda where I am with your post.

Whats the motivation for me lying to you about that, outside of the possibility that me and llamarble are scum together?

[Thestatusquo]

Is sauce an axlegreaser alt?

Can't be, Alts are going to be represented as Mains.

yeah I know, consider that post more of an exasperated sigh than anything else.

[Thestatusquo]

Cool, while we're all gathered here, want to clue me in as to why and momo switched?

[Thestatusquo]

Captain momo, although he's too modest to say so out loud, felt it beneath him to play a game the setup of which was considered balance before the extra addition of 2 vts.

I felt it necessary to get away from the fairy game because it invokes childhood trauma of getting read bedtimes stories to even though I wasn't sleepy yet wanting to scumhunt some more.

Enought of a fuck-you-back, for you I hope. Now let's win this game. What has been your contribution to winning this game for town and how can I help?

Ok so now how about you answer the question for real?

[Thestatusquo]

a) your points to wgeurts were in no way responsive to my argument.

b) isn't "what I think scum would have done as a defense for why those saying that me doing the opposite is scummy" like LITERALLY the definition of wifomy self meta?

[Thestatusquo]

No, my argument is and was that your attack didn't make any sense because a town player attempting to create information by making plays would look similar to "trying to force it" as scum or whatever you accused them of. I then made a related comment which is that frequently I see an attempt to use rvs to divest themselves from their actions and avoid accountability, which is why I don't like your comment about how your vote is a rvs one.

Frankly, I'm not really sure how you could have thought any of the stuff you just said about rvs was relevant to what I thought was bad about that interaction.

[Thestatusquo]

Thanks Dan. I knew I could count on you.

[Thestatusquo]

Llamarble would you mind explaining to me why Marquis is scum. But do it like I'm stupid. It'll be like old times.

Mostly I understand you think he has dropped some sort of tells and that you don't like his pacing/cadence but I don't really know what you mean by that. Explain yourself pls.

[Thestatusquo]

Also interested in if there was anything associative in your list of three or if it was just your three strongest reads at the time.

[Thestatusquo]

And I take it from the fact that you have me in that list that you don't think nsg is scum?

[Thestatusquo]

I think Marquis has been just about as null as a player who has posted can be.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

he explicitly said it wasn't associative and more to the point, even if he hadn't: why?

[Thestatusquo]

LQ that's a good assessment, if that gets more votes I'll vote it but I'm sticking with Marqius for now

very interesting to look back at if marquis or Sauce ever flip.

Why is that? Unless you are just hinting at some surface level association BS I don't get this comment.

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

this is an interesting juxtaposition in addition to completely ignoring lqs question.

speaking of questions and lq, lq i don't believe you ever answered my question.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean why even throw lycan in there?

the statement "I am alarmed by associations being made" is substantively different from the statement "I do not agree with this specific person included in an association."

[Thestatusquo]

tchill are you scum dude? I don't want to let nsg go because they just disappeared without doing anything to dispel that read but also I think you might be scum.

[Thestatusquo]

tchill are you scum dude? I don't want to let nsg go because they just disappeared without doing anything to dispel that read but also I think you might be scum.

Nope. You should look towards postie though.

why?

[Thestatusquo]

Heres a braindump of some reck stuff. I'll try to post my teammates commentary in regular and my commentary in italics, but if you have any confusion about what is coming from whom, let me know.

Reck thinks Marquis voting north in response to 13 looks town because its exactly what he would be doing at that spot. He solidifies a town read at 33 because "it's just so brazen and bold, I don't think he plays like this as scum here." He agrees with Llamarble on 65 that this is really weird noise to be making here. Pushes him closer to null town than strong town.

Not sure I agree here. As I said, I just don't see anything in any of marquis' contribution to this game and that in and of itself is pretty gross. He's also completely disappeared in response to the pressure which makes me not want to take the pressure off. Willing to sheep reck a little bit here, but growing more null-scum than null on marquis personally. I want to see how he responds to the pressure when he's here.

He thinks LQs catchup is literally the exact opposite of his opinions and also completely underwhelming and he thinks that he would be voting LQ here. He also notes that LQ is quick (heh) to pump the breaks on marquis when there isn't really any reason too

(wagon deflation? buddying? Genuine town alarm at the growth of the wagon? could be any of these.)

He likes CES calling it out.

He points out that LLamarble is usually more jumpy than this as town. He tends to throw attacks every which way to feel people out and see what sticks, not lock onto one person and tunnel them and then start throwing out potential pairs with them. That tends to happen later.

This is a fair point that I missed, and also squares with my F2F experience with him. Like I mentioned earlier, its not unusual for town marble to throw out hypothetical pairs, but its usually in the context of a more curious day 1. He hasn't seemed very curious this day one. He's seemed content to park on marquis and not try to do much game solving, which is weird. I do tend to agree with his assessment of him not being the lynch today though for exactly the reasons he's stated. Like I don't know if the critiquing thats happening of his comments of being the kill tonight are coming from people who have ever played with him before, but I'll state right now unequivocally that if I were scum in this game I would kill llamarble night 1 100% of the time, and anyone who says otherwise either has never played with him before (and is somehow ignorant of his reputation) or is lying.

I think I want to lynch somewhere in the group of NSG, LQ, Tchill or Gamma Emerald (who I have some thoughts on that I will probably post later today.) and we can add marquis to that pile if he doesn't stop completely ignoring this game/wagon.

My town pile is postie eddie sauce.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh also dunn either needs replacement or votes.

[Thestatusquo]

You mentioned you had a "read" on dunn that was your own. Can you elaborate on that. How did you get a read from a naked RVS vote and then never posting again?

[Thestatusquo]

What wagon?

[Thestatusquo]

Literally he was the only vote on marquis at that time.

[Thestatusquo]

Here, I'll help you out:


If your claim is that he "wolfy jumped in the thread" and made a vote based off of wanting to "push a wagon" you'd think maybe he'd have chosen actually a wagon, instead of just randomly throwing a vote at the wind in a place where no one else was.

More to the point, I find it deeply unsettling that you think this is the most important thing to go off of at this point. We have 10 whole pages bruh.

VOTE: gamma emerald

[Thestatusquo]

Also I'm not wild about the fact that your first instinct was to attack me instead of trying to figure out what I meant. As town when someone says something to me that on face doesn't make sense my first reaction is generally to try to clarify, not to fos them.

[Thestatusquo]

Dan vote gamma.

[Thestatusquo]

What do you think about the parts of the post (most of it) that aren't directed at you?

[Thestatusquo]

Ok but why are you voting dunn? Your vote for him is nonsense and there's a lot of scum motivation to park on the lurker who is literally doing nothing, and then make a big show about it as if you had some hyper special read on him and you didn't understand why others didn't. What do you think about the literal anything else thats happened in this game? Why do you think that dunn is the best vote when there is so much going on? Why were you unaware that it wasn't a wagon vote when you've placed your entire sorting efforts in this game into figuring out what happened in that one random early vote?

[Thestatusquo]

What do you think about the parts of the post (most of it) that aren't directed at you?

Well that's an interesting way to sidestep what I said.

What I see is lack of consistency into the methodology to get the reads that Reck is representing. In the first case, Reck is using a mind meld read. In the second, he is using a read based on play. And in the third he is using a meta read. So it's quite confusing why Reck is using three methods to get 3 different reads.

Do you actually think its unusual to use different things to understand your surroundings as they become relevant?

[Thestatusquo]

Alright guys, got our first.

[Thestatusquo]

"IARFMTOAOY" I have no idea what that means.

[Thestatusquo]

What do you think about the parts of the post (most of it) that aren't directed at you?

Well that's an interesting way to sidestep what I said.

What I see is lack of consistency into the methodology to get the reads that Reck is representing. In the first case, Reck is using a mind meld read. In the second, he is using a read based on play. And in the third he is using a meta read. So it's quite confusing why Reck is using three methods to get 3 different reads.

Do you actually think its unusual to use different things to understand your surroundings as they become relevant?

No, I don't. But I do think that it shows that Reck either doesn't know what he is talking about because he is forced to use different methodologies instead of keeping the methodologies the same, or you are Scum and that is the reason for the different methodologies.

In short, Reck is using different tactics, so the goal must be the thing that is the same. See here to know what I am talking about: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69491
Basically, I think it's a bit more Scummy than Towny the way Reck goes about making these statements.

I um. Ok. I'm not really sure what to make of that. Carry on I guess?

[Thestatusquo]

I disagree I guess. Frequently when I'm reading through a game I note things and end up with a list of things that bear no relation to each other. Its not because I'm "switching methodologies" or whatever, its that my methodology is reading the posts and seeing what things stick out to me. For instance, if I player I know well is playing very differently from how I would expect them to I take note of it, but I would also take note of posts by that player that seem to have town motivation behind them. I think most people play this way? I don't want to get too far down the theory rabbit hole but this is game relevant so I do want to talk about it

[Thestatusquo]

(last post was directed at LQ, gamma. This ones for you bb)

Alright guys, got our first.

Wanna actually address my issues with you rather than say "got our first"? Or do you just want to throw shade?

Not really, no. Arguing to convince scum why they're scum is kind of a waste of time.

But for the good of the rest of the game I'll point out that there has been no change in my arguments or my position from when I originally voted you and now, between which you totally changed your mind on me and said "I'm no longer FoSing you" and then decided that I was blowing things out of proportion. Your anger and suspicion of me seems to be not based around figuring out my alignment, but rather based on the strenuousness of my arguments against you, so I'm not particularly willing to give it much credence.

I have other reasons that I think you're scum, though. For instance, you voted marquis, after declaring that the dunn vote was readable because he came into the thread in order to pile onto the wagon, but its actually your vote that was the wagon pile on, not his. Your position on the wagon was a million times worse than the one you're reading as scum.

You say you've done a bunch of other stuff but what, exactly, do you mean by that? I see you agreeing with an LQ comment. I see you vaguely defending postie. I see you throwing early shade on marquis and dunn by sheeping llamarble and posting no insight of your own. What of these actions do you think represents a reasonable attempt to sort players?

I don't see any of them as such, and I think your vote is convenient and also doesn't accomplish anything in the game and it looks to me like you're content not accomplishing anything in the game.

The two times you've expressed strong suspicion in this game was the vote on the guy who has one post (which as I have already stated is crap) and on me after I asked you a series of pointed questions after voting you.

If you're town you're not doing a very good job.

[Thestatusquo]

I changed gears because there was the fact that my teammate didn't seem to trust you, along with the fact you seemed to completely miss my unvote. So did you miss it or just choose to say I was still voting him?

Missed it. Don't think it changes very much, though. As a town player I would expect you to perform the most minimum amount of scrutiny on the attacks you're making.

Yeah I voted Marquis after Dunn which it's fair that you scumread that vote, but there's the fact I didn't realize Dunnstral was the first vote. Plus, his post was a naked vote while I gave early reads in my voting post. So they're not the same.

You didn't give reasoning, you sheeped llamarble. Given that I have already expressed that I don't understand llamarbles reasons for voting him at the time he did, you can probably understand why I find it not likely that you read llamarbles post and said "huh yeah that makes total sense to me." it seemed (and seems) like you were looking to sheep onto the biggest wagon, and did so.

And you say I expressed strong suspicion on you and Dunnstral, what do you see my Marquis vote as?

See previous answer.

[Thestatusquo]

I disagree I guess. Frequently when I'm reading through a game I note things and end up with a list of things that bear no relation to each other. Its not because I'm "switching methodologies" or whatever, its that my methodology is reading the posts and seeing what things stick out to me. For instance, if I player I know well is playing very differently from how I would expect them to I take note of it, but I would also take note of posts by that player that seem to have town motivation behind them. I think most people play this way? I don't want to get too far down the theory rabbit hole but this is game relevant so I do want to talk about it

You have just moved the goal posts. We were not talking about how you get reads but how Reck came to the conclusion to the reads he gave. You don't what Reck's methodologies are for getting reads and there is evidence of the fact you didn't have this conversation because you said you assume most people play the same way you do without mentioning that Reck said he gets reads the same way you do.

I am getting more and more suspicious of you, shea, because you seem to be bringing up points with me only to drop them later when I say something you are not expecting. It's the hesitation that I see in your responses that tell me that you either feel I am on to something or don't know how to respond. Given you never talked Reck in what I said in reply to Reck, this leads me to believe you are not hesitant because you don't know how to respond (because otherwise you would have talked to Reck about what I said), but rather that you are Scum trying to give a believable spin on things.

FoS Shea

Dude I am having the hardest time trying to understand what you're even accusing me of. If I'm shifting the goal posts its unintentionally. From what I understand your issue is that Recks reads come from different places and different methodologies. What I am trying to articulate is simply that I don't think thats unusual and, indeed, I myself read people in a similar way. I haven't talked to reck about what you said, I'm trying to discuss it with you here because I'm the one who is in this game, not Will. I have brought it up in our discord but he has not responded.

You're right, I have hesitation and I'm not sure what to say to you. But thats not because I am trying to hide anything, its because I legitimately am having a hard time understanding the discussion we're even having or what your point is, as evidenced by the fact that my last post caused you to think I was trying to shift the goal posts.

[Thestatusquo]

Like I don't understand what you think the scum motivation for deliberately misunderstanding you here would be but I promise you that there isn't one.

[Thestatusquo]

I dont believe anyones self meta, especially when its presented in as an attempt to answer an attack on them.

a) I don't think I have written off marquis as null. Or rather, my position on marquis is more nuanced than that. I declared him to be pretty null on the content of his posts alone, specifically in response to the wagon and LLamarble saying he was very scummy. If you read my post about team commentary, I note that Will thinks he's a lean town, whereas I think that is too strong, and I find that his lack of existence today and lack of response to the wagon makes me think the pressure is in a good spot, which makes me null-scum read him. Giving some deference to my teammate who has a lot more experience with him I am not pushing him right now, but I don't want that wagon to go anywhere until he comes back.

[Thestatusquo]

b) there is no b.

[Thestatusquo]

Reck thinks Marquis voting north in response to 13 looks town because its exactly what he would be doing at that spot. He solidifies a town read at 33 because "it's just so brazen and bold, I don't think he plays like this as scum here." He agrees with Llamarble on 65 that this is really weird noise to be making here. Pushes him closer to null town than strong town.
Not sure I agree here. As I said, I just don't see anything in any of marquis' contribution to this game and that in and of itself is pretty gross. He's also completely disappeared in response to the pressure which makes me not want to take the pressure off. Willing to sheep reck a little bit here, but growing more null-scum than null on marquis personally. I want to see how he responds to the pressure when he's here.

What do you think this is?

[Thestatusquo]

Will = Reckoner. If that's not clear?

[Thestatusquo]

Actually I'm not done on the self-meta thing. TSQ, don't you feel if someone knew the player they could disprove the faulty self-meta, thus making it a substantial risk?

I mean this is getting more down the path of theory than game relevant stuff, but I think it depends on the meta. Something along the lines of "I wouldn't do this here because of X" is not the same as "I never ever bus as scum."

The comment I had a problem with was of the former, not the latter.

[Thestatusquo]

LQ you've dropped off the conversation we were having. Is there anything else you want to follow up on about it or are satisfied for now?

[Thestatusquo]

You didn't respond to my last response. I thought you might.

[Thestatusquo]

I am so confused. You said you had a problem with me and said you thought I was shifting the goal posts and then I wrote a response to that to try to explain where my head was at. I would have thought you to at the very least be interested in that response? Idk. I have a hard time figuring out what you're doing most of the time so fuckin' just ignore me I guess I'll be over in this corner babbling like an idiot.

[Thestatusquo]

Do you plan to post once every 48 hours?

[Thestatusquo]

also, i'm pretty much of the opposite opinion to dan when it comes to the tsq/gamma interaction – i think gamma's suspicion on dunn is very easily explained by a confusion of the order of events when it comes to dunn's vote vs the rest of the marquis wagon whereas i think tsq's push there feels opportunistic. mathdino agrees with me here, and he thinks the same "predatory" or "gotcha fishing"-style was visible in tsq's posts to me.

I had included him in my list of people I was planning on pushing on before that and that is not the only reason for me voting him. dig deeper here. my issue is not that the vote can't be explained, but rather that the vote needs to be explained, because he was still pushing it as the only thing in the game that he was actively pushing on. the fact that hes still talking about a naked rvs vote when there is 10+ pages of content to dig into as his most interested in the game and most active sorting attempt is what I am scum reading, not the fact that he was wrong about it. (although that certainly doesn't help the point.) I think this is abundantly clear from my posts.

[Thestatusquo]

not as much, but I'm still leery. I don't think you've actually tried to use rvs and randomness to avoid accountability which is what I was worried about when I voted for you. I'm not super happy with your overall contribution to the game, but I have several people I want to go after before you.

[Thestatusquo]

wouldn't scum also experience genuine frustration at being scumread?

[Thestatusquo]

that makes sense to me. I don't agree that this is where he was coming from, but I get what you're saying.

[Thestatusquo]

i don't think that any of that outweighs the way he's played the rest of the game, though, and I have seen similar emotion from scum who feel they have been caught for the wrong reasons. aka I see what you're saying but I don't agree with the conclusions you're drawing from it. I think frustration at those things could very easily come from scum.

@nsg, yes. sometimes I'm actually talking to the person I'm talking to, sometimes I'm talking to the town via talking to that person.

[Thestatusquo]

anyone who is voting postie is wrong btw.

[Thestatusquo]

This game is kinda stagnant, which makes me even happier thinking there is at least one scum in the majorish wagons. It makes sense with the setup.

[Thestatusquo]

gamma why are you still voting me? Do you actually think I'm scum? If you're town I want to see actual scum hunting from you if you want me to unvote.

[Thestatusquo]

Marquis is actually just in danger of being straight up replaced.

[Thestatusquo]

And I'd rather not pressure someone who is not even here to be pressured. I'd rather vote gamma or tchill.

[Thestatusquo]

Like ffs, we have now 15 pages of hard interaction to go off of I don't understand how you guys think the most fruitful course of action is to jump on the guy who is not even here.

Mike, what do you think of my attacks on gamma emerald? More to the point, what do you think of ADs case and NSGs response to it? What are your positions on these slots?

LQ, same question.

[Thestatusquo]

I refuse to fucking settle for the lurker lynch when we have people who are actually scummy to vote out today.

[Thestatusquo]

Marquis is actually just in danger of being straight up replaced.

That wouldn't be the first time that's happened to a lurkerscum I was wagonning. (It could reasonably be the last time but that's neither here nor there.)

Marquis

is scummy

and I'm certainly not going to let the fact that he's lurking work to his defense. Scum do it and they do it often. Because it works.

Why? You have asserted that he is scummy and given no reasons for it. You have vote parked him the whole game and done nothing to find out anything else. You don't seem to care about anything else? Your only other significant vote this game was on llamarble, someone who has been basically on and off voting marquis the whole game.

also why don't you turn that lurk looker inward. You have like 2.5 posts this game.

[Thestatusquo]

I am aware of that, but the votes of llamarble and LQ just feel lazy there, for lack of a better word. I just don't understand how they could read what's happened in the last day and think "huh, the best thing to do here is to vote the lurker with no explanation"

[Thestatusquo]

melatonin is mostly a placebo fwiw. most studies show it has little actual effect.

but also the placebo effect is pretty powerful

[Thestatusquo]

Happy to VOTE: tchill.

I'm pretty happy with gammas contributions especially 395 since our tiff. I still want him to find a good vote because I get the impression that he doesn't actually think I am one, but he seems way more engaged in trying to find one than he was before.

[Thestatusquo]

I can vote tchill because of something momo said. Are you sure you're ok with Cogito airport light -stick guying votes on to Marquis and insert random wagon size -contender, or can I persuade you to punish him for it with me?

I like this better.

[Thestatusquo]

Can you explain why postie is scum? Because I think she's one of the most town players in the game?

[Thestatusquo]

Ok but thats post 44 and we're on post 418. Do you have more than that? Has that single post shaped your entire read of her? What do you think of her attempts to sort the game? What do you think of the posts shes made about the me-gamma interaction? What do you think about her eddie push?

[Thestatusquo]

So my question to you is, as shes someone you'd like to get lynched, why did you not note that interaction before I pointed it out to you?

[Thestatusquo]

Lycan did you mean to post a post from mini 44 in your blurb about me? Something tells you you didn't but also its hilarious.

[Thestatusquo]

what were your motivations for that conversation with me? it felt like you were trying to see if you could poke around and find traction to start getting a wagon on me, but no one jumped on it so you abandoned it and moved on. you've thrown a lot of shade my way but have avoided attacking me directly. I think that's kind of what lycan was getting at, and I think its pretty clearly true.

so I'll ask you this: are you scum reading me, and if so: why arent you voting me?

[Thestatusquo]

I consider what people say about their play, but I don't let people tell me why they're doing the things they do because people lie. You know damn well I know you're quick and I believe I've told you that I've read your wiki, but I also recall you have something of a poor memory, so I forgive you for not remembering that.

The problem with your actions is that the things you're doing also have significant scum motivations. Regardless of if you think you're doing them for other reasons, I'm not in your head, and I can't just trust you.

And I also am starting to be pretty sure you're scum because you're poking and drawing almost no reasonable conclusions. You start long discussions with me about nonsense about how reck is using different tools to find reads, and then disengage as soon as I try to explain. That's the biggest problem here. You're poking, but you don't seem to care about the responses to your pokes. At least not from the people you're poking. You seem to be singularly interested in the responses of other players, which makes me think you're more interested in finding where you can find an easy lynch, and not concerned about finding the correct lynch. This squares quite nicely with your vote on marquis also, which you have not fully explained after naked voting. It's nice to be on the highest vote getter who happens to not be posting much.

Actually, literally all the votes on marquis right now are atrocious.

[Thestatusquo]

scum team of tchill, LQ and then one in {wgeurts, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dunnstral, Gamma Emerald, EddieFenix } ?

that's not a great POE on the last slot but thankfully I don't have to worry about it yet.

[Thestatusquo]

doesn't square with tchill-lq mostly, and I thought his last Big Post TM was very good.

If either of them ever flip town I can reevaluate, but that part of the list is also why marquis isn't in the list.

[Thestatusquo]

1) I didn't say you're going for the easiest lynch. I said you were going for an easy lynch, which I think "the second easiest lynch" would qualify as.

2) I don't agree with people just because they town read me. That's playing town 101. Please give me more credit than that, I've only been playing this game for 10+ years.

3) you seem to think that this read is coming out of nowhere out of one thing. That's not the case, and it doesn't come from lycan. Lycan's post just made me circle around to something thats been bugging me about your play for basically this whole game, which is what I laid out in my last post. You're poking everywhere, but you don't care about the persons response to the poking. You keep trying to figure out how the rest of the town is responding to the poking. That's the basis of me thinking that your motivation is not to find scum but to find where you can rally town support.

4) I am voting another scum read. I'm allowed to have multiple. Would happily switch to your wagon. I have been pretty transparent about how I feel about people. The reason I asked the question is that you haven't been. I have no way of knowing who you find scummy other than your vote, because you keep poking at cracks and moving on when a wagon doesn't form.

[Thestatusquo]

And I know why people are Scum reading me. I think Lycan hit on this point and so did Postie a bit.

It's because people are interpreting my play as "mechanical" and for some reason they thing this means I am Scum. Instead, I would say I am trying to play in a logical way with a big picture outlook on the game. That means I am not going to get into specifics of relating what Player X did at point A and compare that to what Player Y did at Point B. I have never played that way so if people expect me to play that way, I am sorry to say that they will be disappointed. How I play is looking at posts in isolation and seeing if they are internally logical insofar of what I know to be logical comparing this to what I think is the correct way to play. I sometimes compare a post they made somewhat recently to what they are saying, but I am not going to remember something that someone said on page 5 at this point. I will, however, ISO players occasionally and I will usually do this if someone asks me to.

I don't think your summary up there is even remotely responsive to why I am scum reading you. I don't give a damn if you play mechanically or not. I laid out in detail why I think you're scummy, and its mainly because I don't actually see you doing the thing you say you're doing here. I see you starting conversations and interactions with people and then trying to gauge town reactions to those things and disengaging with the pokes as soon as its clear people aren't going to start voting the person. Like, I have no doubt you would have voted me after our exchange if a couple of other people had.

The problem I am having with the SRs on me is that there isn't much probing from players who are Scum reading me. Some players are doing this, but most of what people are bringing to me as an inquiry are things that I don't see a whole lot of relevance to actually sort me. Examples include Postie asking me to ask my teammates what their reads on players are in this game and Lycan asking me why I had a change in perspective on Marquis reads list. Shea has probably been the person who has looked like they have tried to sort me the most, but I am not going to TR him just solely on that fact.

Do you think the methods others are using on you are ineffective or disingenuous? These are different claims, and I think one might be true, but also I don't think its the one you're claiming.

I think this game has become too lopsided. Lots of people voting a single lurker for being a lurker (Marquis) with most people on the wagon having little demonstrated reason for being there. Then you have most of the active players who are fighting amongst themselves mostly and a lot of people who have very little content who are getting by with not doing a whole lot of anything. The state of the game isn't a good one for Town currently - especially considering that a lot of people have expressed that they are Scum read me, whom I consider myself to generally be a Town leader when I am Town. I cannot yet tell who or how many Scum players are going to try and actively push my lynch, but there will most certainly be Scum on my lynch if it happens, so look at those on my wagon upon my lynch.

Homie you were literally voting for that lurker ONE PAGE AGO. With NO EXPLANATION YOURSELF. Literal naked vote. Then you jumped on another wagon without demonstrating or explaining any sort of scum read there. WHY are you voting TChill? WHY did you vote marquis? People aren't scum reading you because you're mechanical, they're scum reading you because you don't seem to care who is lynched and because you're not telling us what your reads are and not explaining them. In the absence of information, what the hell else am I supposed to think?

[Thestatusquo]

I think the answer to that question is very relevant fwiw. For I assume the same reasons postie has.

[Thestatusquo]

I never said I have no doubt? Mafia is a probabilistic game. Of course there are other reasons you could be doing what you're doing, but I don't think they're the most likely ones.

You claiming that somehow me thinking you're scum means I am doubtless and have your role PM in my hand is a bizarre response. I'm not even voting you, I don't know how you could possibly spin that as utter certainty. I'm just scum reading you.

[Thestatusquo]

And I think you are projecting an awful lot here. Lycan explicitly stated that he thought I was playing mechanical and that was the basis for his SR on me. Postie has also said similar things stating that Postie expected more from me insofar as I am not as forceful or chaotic that RC expects me to play. Llama really has yet to state a reason for why I am Scum, so you are just assuming you know the reason that Llama is SRing me. Who does that leave? Marquis? Marquis is not much more than an OMGUS. She still has yet to address what I asked them to do to get involved in the game. Who else does that leave? IDEK who else is Scum reading me, but a lot of people are strongly TRing me as well. So what do you make of those players? Are they all my Teammates trying to cover for my ass? What's your theory for why People are so polarized on me?

My reasons for voting you don't have anything to do with why others are voting you. Please stop responding to posties reasons or lycans reasons. It DOES help that I am TRing both of those people.

I honestly don't even understand this point. You have played enough mafia to know that there is almost never full consensus on a lynch, regardless of alignment. Indeed, frequently the players who its the hardest to reach consensus on are scum because of buddying.

[Thestatusquo]

*Scum reading you, I should say.

[Thestatusquo]

*Defending, not buddying. Why can't I type. This is what happens when I stay up til 3am watching survivor.

[Thestatusquo]

Lets do a pop quiz:

If shea says "I have no doubt that you would have voted me"

Does shea mean

a) "I have no doubt you would have voted me"

or

b) "I have no doubt you are scum."

[Thestatusquo]

So I went from the person who is "most trying to sort you" to the person who is "too easy" as scum in your eyes? And that corresponds directly with me pushing you more aggressively?

K.

I don't want to let chilly lurk out from under this wagon, but also I think this needs rope.

[Thestatusquo]

Nothing you just posted is a contradiction outside of you blatantly misrepresenting what I'm saying.

[Thestatusquo]

[Thestatusquo]

JK, still happy voting chill or LQ. The fact that LQ found his way off the chill wagon onto me just when it was gaining steam is a good data point also.

GTFO me sauce.

[Thestatusquo]

I really can't be mad at that in all honesty.

[Thestatusquo]

Join http://www.GBmafia.com today it's a great online rpg mafia website its just opemed.

VOTE: RyanNdgb

[Thestatusquo]

Oh fuck we're on a bot votecounter tho. VOTE: tchill

[Thestatusquo]

you dont have to have actually noticed that post to make that comment.

you just have to be opportunistic.

[Thestatusquo]

not necessarily anything, but thats exactly the kind of post I frequently make as scum when I'm trying to look engaged without stepping on any toes or changing the course of a wagon.

plus clearly it scored you town points, but thats a wifom argument.

I'm not saying you did do this, I'm just saying that I wouldn't use it to town read someone.

[Thestatusquo]

(If you are town, we are on the same team, so pls help)
Anyway the reason I woke myself up was I got paranoid about Postie and ISOed her in bed and I can't remember why she is town.
Mostly I just see a good player playing the game. Solid probability of town because game loaded with town but not the obvtown I was hoping.
TSQ is take it to the bank never lynch town though because he got frustrated with me and tried to pull me more actively into the game.(which worked). I will ISO him again sometime to make sure but he and Gamma are town 1 and town 2 and NSG has made fakeable posts but they have also been good; gets exhausting to continue to produce moderate grade town tells like that as scum so I think she can be town 3.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

what's the point of scum "getting town reads right" at all? isn't the literal only motivation for getting a town read being town? this game is mountainous. scum doesn't need town reads.

[Thestatusquo]

also I should note: my level of activity will naturally go down on the weekends, when I am not forced to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours a day, so I generally don't.

Expect a couple posts like this from me on weekends and then my regular content on weekdays.

Still down to kill LQ or Tchill primarily.

[Thestatusquo]

(If you are town, we are on the same team, so pls help)
Anyway the reason I woke myself up was I got paranoid about Postie and ISOed her in bed and I can't remember why she is town.
Mostly I just see a good player playing the game. Solid probability of town because game loaded with town but not the obvtown I was hoping.
TSQ is take it to the bank never lynch town though because he got frustrated with me and tried to pull me more actively into the game.(which worked). I will ISO him again sometime to make sure but he and Gamma are town 1 and town 2 and NSG has made fakeable posts but they have also been good; gets exhausting to continue to produce moderate grade town tells like that as scum so I think she can be town 3.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

what's the point of scum "getting town reads right" at all? isn't the literal only motivation for getting a town read being town? this game is mountainous. scum doesn't need town reads.

You are assuming I am SRing Llama for that.

for the love of god stop trying to put words in my mouth. I am saying it is an utterly useless question. unless you are suggesting that llama should change his behavior and stop trying to find town reads, OR that he should stop trying to double check his town reads, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this post? because it reads like well poisoning to me.

especially because the action is a thing that only townies would be prone to do organically.

[Thestatusquo]

Like that vibe becomes even stronger with the conclusion.

It's another reason I think you're likely to be scum.

You keep trying to subtly discredit scum reads on you. And I just mean like, argue and dispute arguments, because theres obviously town motivation to do that. What I mean is you keep trying to weasel around people scum reading you. One example of it is trying to cast all the people scum reading you as not understanding how you play, and saying they were doing so because they didn't like you playing mechanically, when in fact doing so was not the reason I had stated I was scum reading you, nor do I think its a fair characterization of the reason others were.

Similarly, in this post you seem to be suggesting that llama has not done the work, and subtly implying that his reads on you aren't to be trusted. At no point has llama said or even implied he hasn't read your iso, so you throwing it out there like that reads to me as an attempt to discredit his arguments instead of trying to interact with them.

It's disingenuous. You're not making good faith arguments.

[Thestatusquo]

*and I'm don't just mean

[Thestatusquo]

town frequently changes opinions on people, sometimes rapidly. This is the mindset of someone trying to find scum. Scum players are the ones who tend to care about consistency of reads.

[Thestatusquo]

above post seems like a pretty bizarre overreaction. Forced?

[Thestatusquo]

UNVOTE: tchill
Might be temporary unvote. Note toself remembertherepbreakdown
Meow

:/

don't like this post. at all.

[Thestatusquo]

That's a very bleh vote count. Tchill doesn't feel much better than a random lynch to me.

Please explain. In great detail.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm going to hard no sir a postie lynch today.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, currently we have 11/15 players (including yourself!) not voting for someone useful. It's about that time of the day where you should start lobbying for your preferred kill and not just sitting back vote parking someone while doing nothing to advance the game. If you think I should be voting llamarble, sauce, convince me. Although, I would prefer you pick someone else because I am pretty firmly convinced he's town.

I want to lynch in {tchill, LQ} today. There are some number of people I'd be willing to switch to at DL.

Under no circumstances am I voting for {sauce, postie, Llamarble, lycanfire}

[Thestatusquo]

I would vote for Gamma if only to make his giant quotes + onelining stop, then again scum would probably refrain from being this annoying but that's wifom.
@TSQ why are you townreading me?

I mean, I've been town reading you for a while for various reasons (a lot of them having to do with who I think inanity and cheekiness is actually more likely to come from) and a lot of them having to do with your progression from a joke, sort of nonsense output to what I would describe as pretty genuinely trying to find scum, but I'm pretty sure what moved you into the "I definitely don't want to lynch today" pile was your last post about the switch.

[Thestatusquo]

5 out of 6 posts davsto made are devoid of content, btw. Withholding his vote until he's supposedly read the whole thread doesn't look good, especially when he townreads Liquety too and has no apparent reason not to sheep him onto Tchill.

I also don't have any reason

to

sheep him onto Tchill. Just because I think he's town doesn't mean I think he's right. I'd never just vote someone because I "have no reason not to", and I have no reason to scum (or town)read Tchill because he'd made literally one (1) post by page five.

Ok but why are you only at page 5? Why are you taking time to respond to the thread before you continue reading the game? This is a very small game compared to all the others, and you chose to replace in. You should be able to at least skim through in under an hour. You doing this is more valuable to the town than literally any response you could make to sauce rn.

Please just read the god damned thread. I don't understand why people replace into games and then don't read the thread.

Also, I thought the joke was that mastina always claims to be a good scum hunter, but is actually garbage.

Put another way: I've never been impressed with anything I've seen.

[Thestatusquo]

It's similar (albeit a bit more outright lurky) to the scum game we played together recently.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not engaging this. If you're seriously positing that me wanting you to read the thread is somehow not genuine because I think at the very least skimming it is better than not having any knowledge of whats happened, then you're being crazy.

You've now spent at least ten minutes fighting with me about nonsense which you could have been using to read the damn thread.

[Thestatusquo]

No I'm just pointing out you're complaining about one thing but if I did what you said then the result would be something I'd dislike and that you'd complain about even more.

And I am reading the thread. Right now. Want a screenshot of proof?

please don't do that.

[Thestatusquo]

No I'm just pointing out you're complaining about one thing but if I did what you said then the result would be something I'd dislike and that you'd complain about even more.

And I am reading the thread. Right now. Want a screenshot of proof?

please don't do that.

I hope that explains it a bit better, and that you'll start trying to read people again instead of criticising me for how I'm choosing to play.

I assure you I am quite capable of both reading people AND being annoying to you at the same time.

[Thestatusquo]

While TSQ's theory is very wrong imo (scum needs to have townreads to look like they're actually playing) This seems a bit confrontational, like LQ is trying to get in TSQ's face with the fact he made an incorrect assumption.

I'm not saying scum don't have town reads, but rather that hunting for them is a thing town does, not scum. It's easy to make up town reads when you're scum. Obsessively checking your town reads is a town tell, not a scum one. The claim wasn't that he was "too focused on having town reads" but rather that he was "too focused on getting town reads

right

" Emphasis mine. Scum doesn't need to focus on if they're getting their town reads right. They ALREADY KNOW their town reads are right.

[Thestatusquo]

Hey Davsto have you finished reading yet?

[Thestatusquo]

I bet he'll randomly show up and hammer and cement himself as the D2 lynch or something.

What is the purpose of this statement?

[Thestatusquo]

is there anything i NEED to directly comment on?

Lazyyy

LQ that's a good assessment, if that gets more votes I'll vote it but I'm sticking with Marqius for now

very interesting to look back at if marquis or Sauce ever flip.

Why? Just a vague "interesting"? And not even "interesting if they flip scum/town", just "flip"? What an awful post.

Slapping me with a scum role when the last 3 games I rolled scum in were subpar at best ain't the best thing for me to have right now.

This meta talk is giving me a fucking headache. It's just wifom, wifom, wifom, all the way down the tracks.

VOTE: postie

im caught up.

wow i sure am glad you voted for a player where your only reason was gut as compared to the several players you've shaded

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

You did that. Less than 50 posts ago. Like, not "Marquis is scum and I think I've spotted his team" but you were all "interesting,,,"

Outside of my first scum game, the only one I've really enjoyed, I have never not been lynched as scum on this site.

To be fair that's like, 90% because everyone's been very, very wary of you since you absolutely smashed your first scum game. This is bad self-meta.

Tchill seems town so far. "Alarmed" post counts in favor and scumhunting seems genuine enough.

This is an odd conclusion because, well, Tchill has barely seemed town and his scumhunting was baaad.

I don't know how good at scum Postie is. She has mostly towntells at this point, but when I try to meta her I keep reading GD threads.

You could have asked

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=70536
^ Last one I played. I did okay at first but then as soon as people started putting pressure on me I shut down and became a coasty postie and eventually replaced out. It's the one I menioned earlier so I don't expect you to read the whole thing but feel free to skim my ISO or whatever.

Then there are these from 2016:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66865
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=67718
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=65639

I wish I had more to show you from 2017 or something but I haven't played in a while. I feel like I had more than that in 2016 too but I can't find them right now.

On one hand, this is missing Word Sneak 1 where Postie actually played well as scum and was very townread and only lynched because I had an inkling that something was wrong and was cop so got a guilty. On the other hand, upon skimming the games it does appear her losses are to do with not playing well rather than being under scrutiny due to previous performances. Idk how I'm feeling about this whole self-meta thing.

Dunn has a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Llamarble is essentially a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Postie looks more or less like a naked vote as well.

I dislike how the reaction to the naked votes is "nothing to analyse" rather than "I'll ask more questions". And Llamarble definitely has some, if only, a little explanation behind his vote. Definitely enough to give a good starting point for questions if not analysis.

You've just been really flat and superificial this game which isn't what I'm used to seeing from town!you

That's actually a really good point. Reading through I feel like Lickety has almost been slipping under my radar which doesn't feel right. Too safe would be the word?

I'll need some clarification on that vote at some point, Lycan

It was an RVS vote because I didn't want to leave RVS. I wanted to make a sillier looking vote but I somewhat felt bad for Mathblade so I made it coherent enough to be picked up by their web bot.

Do you usually need reasons for RVS votes?

Whoa I forgot this person was playing. Probably because this is its first non-RVS post all game. Hm.

You mentioned you had a "read" on dunn that was your own. Can you elaborate on that. How did you get a read from a naked RVS vote and then never posting again?

I read it as a wolfy pop-in, he jumped in to vote and nothing else, meaning he didn't care about anything but pushing the wagon

As tsq points out promptly, this is bad. Bad bad. Feels like he decided to want to scumread Dunn and then find a reason I guess? Kinda like he checked his ISO and went "ooh, vote on Marquis, that's something good to push".

Welcome to the towny pile.

[Thestatusquo]

Sup Ranmaru.

I can't begin to express how happy I am that you are not vonflare.

[Thestatusquo]

I tend to play very holistically, I'll look at someone's entire ISO and think to myself "is this a scum ISO or a town ISO"
Or at the entire game and "is this a game where CES and AD and Tchill are the scumteam?
That being said, I think I've shared quite a few specific things that have influenced my reads if you look through.

So you've colored in a few things with a little detail. That doesn't make me think "I can see Llama's thought process here and it looks Town motivated". If you don't know what you have been doing wrong in this game (given its a mountainous setup) then you should probably be playing a different game.

This whole "I read X player as Scum and Y player as Town" with no explanation shouldn't get anyone to TR you, period.

This is more well poisoning.

"Colored in a few things with a little detail" is not even a remotely reasonable description of what llamarble says he does.

[Thestatusquo]

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

It was pretty dubious, wasn't it. Definitely made me doubt my townread on him and remove him from the upper tier townies.
I'm not as ready to welcome Davsto to the towny pile as TSQ, I think he would be about as good a competing wagon as GE.
Also I think really I was intending to discourage Eddie from just randomly hammering, as if he's town and does that, that sends town down a bad path.
If he's scum I doubt he'll get far anyway.

I like how that post of his picks down a deeper level into things that had already been discussed. He's not looking surface level at all imo.

[Thestatusquo]

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

If tchill is a scum read, what more exactly do you want?

I ask this partially in game and partially out of game, because honestly I see stuff like this all the time where people are like "welp, we have 5 days left so we can't hammer." which I think is silly. I've already gotten about as much reading done as I can without flips imo, and I really would just prefer to get some and then go from there.

The only thing I really want before day end is for davsto and ranmaru to finish reading the thread and go from there.

If that's what you meant than carry on.

[Thestatusquo]

no, that post is responding to llama, and is talking about davsto's catchup post.

[Thestatusquo]

I have a readlist but I'd rather not share it for now because if I get nightkilled I don't want there to be ambiguity about why it happened.

this is at minimum very anti-town.

[Thestatusquo]

The baseline of town play is saying what you think of other players. If you're not doing that you're not playing a town game. If you die tonight after not giving us reads we get nothing. That hurts the town a lot.

I don't see a lot of difference between you posting a read list that has eddie at the top and just saying "eddie is scum" in terms of kill likelihood, so from where I'm sitting your reasoning makes no sense and it makes it seem like you don't want to post a reads list because you don't have one.

[Thestatusquo]

thats one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard in a game of mafia.

[Thestatusquo]

in order for your logic to work from our pov
a) you have to be town
b) eddie has to be scum
c) people have to think you're such a gigantic threat to them that they nk you because of it.
d) one of your other scum leans has to be scummy enough in other ways that people push on them simply because you died.
e) that person has to be not scum.

do you see why I'm having trouble with this?

[Thestatusquo]

you realize that what you're saying is literally an argument against literally anyone sharing their reads from their pov right?

[Thestatusquo]

who are your top 3 town reads and why?

[Thestatusquo]

isn't postie doing the same thing?

[Thestatusquo]

isn't postie doing the same thing?

Llamarble already linked a scum game.

What are you guys seeing, can you point it out

I compared this to that, I feel like he's a bit more muted than that game but his play seems to be coming off similar in tone

You'll notice that in the town game he's quick to start asking questions, giving reads, and actively trying to sort the people he's unsure on. There's actual, obvious game-solving happening, unlike here and in the scum game Llamarble linked where his ISO is full of fluff and the odd token question that he doesn't pursue or use to reach a conclusion. Idk how to explain this further without doing a post by post analysis. Which I might do.

no I was responding to dunn saying ces is scum because hes trying to get a lynch other than tchill. I'm just pointing out that you're doing the exact same thing.

[Thestatusquo]

sure, but I'm just wondering what is the cause of your markedly different tone between how you're engaging with postie and ces considering they're basically doing the same thing?

[Thestatusquo]

llamarble I am really confused as to why you're switching off your scum read that is being wagoned to vanity vote a slightly higher scum read?

[Thestatusquo]

ok that helps.

thats where I'm at with LQ-tchill.

[Thestatusquo]

~snip~

Why do I feel weird about the fact that you have the same Scum reads as most people? I mean, you were a replacement. Usually replacements see things in a different light.

Do you think his catchup was not genuine? What about the points he raised doesn't sit well with you, because it looked like a pretty organic read through to me.

[Thestatusquo]

@Ran I would happily kill either LQ or Tchill. Right now there is a wagon on one of them and not on the other. I have pretty high confidence in my scum reads on both of them, so I don't see why it makes sense for me to switch over to LQ at this time unless the wagon moved over there for some reason independent of me.

[Thestatusquo]

We had like a 5 page back and forth about what my scum read on your was based on. I explained it to you multiple times. We argued about it for pages.

There's literal no way you don't remember why I'm scum reading you. This is more well poisoning.

[Thestatusquo]

We had like a 5 page back and forth about what my scum read on your was based on. I explained it to you multiple times. We argued about it for pages.

There's literal no way you don't remember why I'm scum reading you

. This is more well poisoning.

You admitted yourself you know I have a bad memory. What the hell, man?

This isn't some passing remark, this is the fundamental and huge part of this game. I simply do not understand how you could possibly have a position on me and how I've played this game without some understanding of why I am scum reading you. Nor do I believe that bad memory means "don't remember a huge thing that happened like 3 days ago"

[Thestatusquo]

You are impressing me with how stupid you are.

Why are you resorting to insults here? You are just sniping him with insults to undermine his position as universal town read.

Well, when you cut more than half of the context out of why I said that in the first place (the second line of that post) it doesn't really do me any good to give a retort to this. My point was that Llama's methodology was WRONG in how they are coming up with reads. You can't say something like "well they said this, but meant that" without some context into why that might be. All we have to go on is what TSQ said, and I didn't see TSQ either confirm nor deny what Llama said was true, so all we really have to go by is what TSQ actually said and can't assume a motivation that isn't obviously apparent.

Lets do a pop quiz:

If shea says "I have no doubt that you would have voted me"

Does shea mean

a) "I have no doubt you would have voted me"

or

b) "I have no doubt you are scum."

Huh...

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not relitigating the argument. I'm just saying the claim you're making in 850, that llamarble was interpreting my words without context and that I had done nothing to explain them and that I had never confirmed he was correct is DEMONSTRABLY false.

[Thestatusquo]

No, you will get atrocious reads. PLEASE read the game. You won't be able to read any of this correctly without context.

[Thestatusquo]

LMAO

[Thestatusquo]

I just got so got.

[Thestatusquo]

In some order, we are lynching Tchill, the entire Gamma wagon (CES AD LQ) and Eddie.
Scum are going to NK TSQ, Me and / or Postie, NSG / Ran
That's 5 lynches; we get 6. If we haven't won the game with those 5, the people still alive at that point can reevaluate.
If somehow those 5 players are all town, then well played scum. Team would have to be like Marquis Postie NSG or something.
In fairness, NSG scum is more plausible than I was thinking; her ISO is essentially just some reads and reasons.
NSG mostly works on Eddie and CES teams and such though.

The lylo that would leave is:
Marquis
Dunnstral
Lycan
Davsto
Gamma

Give whoever you lynch the day before lylo (CES if he makes it that far) the right to pick the lylo lynch if they flip town. Otherwise elect somebody to control all the lylo votes.
Town MUST all 3 get it right, if game goes to lylo, so they need some preexisting mechanism to agree and stack their votes or else scum have a 90% chance of winning in 2/3 lylo.
And once again, do not assume someone who lacks a good possible buddy must be town. I was universally scumread in Whiteflag 1 and won as scum because Mith distanced from me successfully and it looked like nobody could be my partner.

I can see LQ flipping town. I can see AD flipping town, maybe. I can see Tchill flipping town if all the scum are on the gamma wagon.
CES I can't really see flipping town here, but I'm also too lazy and not reliable enough at reading him to try to lynch him D1. If alive in lylo, all votes go on him please.
Eddie is probably where my next big timechunk of reading should go.

I think your lynch math is wrong here.

[Thestatusquo]

@Screen, what do you make of the non-voters?

I have been talking a bit with Creature about this game. He's says I should interact with you more so that is what I am going to do. I had trouble with your Pred not really answering my questions, which is what I saw him do as Scum. So if you can put my mind at ease that you are not Scum, that would be great.

what?

why does what screenplay does have to do with tchills scum meta?

like why does screenplay answering questions mean that tchill wasn't playing as his scum meta?

[Thestatusquo]

oh probably just because "you play mechanically" or "he didn't iso you" or "because he doesn't like how play" or because "hes stupid or scum" or "doesn't understand what your motivation is" or any number of the bs nonsense you've used to cast doubt on people scum reading you this entire game without interacting with their actual arguments.

[Thestatusquo]

ok, add "haven't actually thought about what LQ is saying" to the list of things that you have said to cast shade on the arguments people have made against you without actually trying to interact with them.

[Thestatusquo]

It seems like Dunnstral meta read on Tchill13 is the wagon reasoning for this slot? Is that correct?

I will probably start by iso’inh him during lunch.

Theres also the fact that his actions in this game represented absolutely zero effort towards finding scum. He plopped down votes seemingly at random, didn't seem interested in the reactions that came from that, didn't seem interested in getting anyone in particular lynched. And the votes and "pushes" themselves didn't seem to have any town motivation behind them.

Additionally, in addition to Dunns meta on him for town (where he is a very high volume poster) this matches my meta for him for when I have seen him as scum, where he was more lurky and non-committal.

I just think the slot played exactly how stereotypical scum motivations play + how I have seen scum tchill play.

And also, idk that there's a lot you can do in my mind to erase that play. Like, you're clearly trying to put more effort into the game than he did, and you have already done more pro town things in the last day than he did in the week that came before it, but that's because you kind of have to in order to try to save your skin.

Like there are some scummy slots I'm willing to let the replacement try to redeem them, but I don't feel like the slot is redeemable here, tbh. And the fact that you swapped him instead of replaced doesn't help in my mind.

[Thestatusquo]

viewtopic.php?p=9898749#p9898749

This post is where I begin to think he's scum, and its because he seems to be looking at discrediting reads rather than making them, which is something I've seen him do as scum. The attack on llamarble for making associations while at the same time making his own associations is also kind of icky. It looks like hes trying to discredit a push using poor logic while doing nothing to actually advance the game.

This also could be a buddy defense thing. If tchill flips his bizarre reaction here makes a lot more sense in the context of some of these people being his buddies.

[Thestatusquo]

Like there are some scummy slots I'm willing to let the replacement try to redeem them, but I don't feel like the slot is redeemable here, tbh. And the fact that you swapped him instead of replaced doesn't help in my mind.

1)Tchill13 site flaked.
2)If there are other scumy slots to you push them. At least give me a day. By your own account I have done more than Tchill13 who hasn’t given much to go off of. Allowing me to continue also allows me to generate reads and information.
3)I gave our reasoning for the swap. We didn’t want to be in a position of being docked points from any force replacement situations. Need time to get a replacement.

1) Is not responsive to the points I raise. He was scummy WHEN he posted, and his site flake came AFTER those posts. He was already lurky and matching my scum meta before he site flaked. You bringing that up here doesn't seem honest. It's not like he never posted in this game, he was here for quite a while and THEN flaked. During the time he was lurk posting in this game he was spam posting in town in other games, as Dunn has pointed out.

2) I am happy to see you or LQ go today. BUT what I am getting at with the other posts is that I don't want to give you another day, really, because I think it could muddy the waters. I specifically stated that I don't see your play as making the slot more likely to be town. If you're scum, you're clearly a much better scum player than Tchill. The problem isn't that tchill hasn't given us nothing to go off of. I never said that. He gave us plenty to go off of. The problem is that none of that was town.

3) The fact that tchill has yet to post in the other game gives credence to this point I suppose. I retract it.

[Thestatusquo]

1) No, I said there are times I am willing to, but this is not one of those times. Because the things that lead to me thinking you're scum are not things that you can dispel. It's not like you can, with your play, make it so tchill did not play to his scum meta. You cant, with your play, change the way he didn't try to solve the game at all. You can't, with your play, change the fact that he lurked here while posting highly in town games. I want you dead. The only thing giving you more time can accomplish is causing other people to forget just how scummy tchill played this game because you are involved in the game, and I think that's one of the possible ways in which the town loses this game.

2) I've read plenty of your games.

3) I already conceded this. I accept your argument.

[Thestatusquo]

@Gamma,

I said that me fighting my lynch in the way I have this game is NAI. I didn't say I only do it as Town. Here's a game example of where I have done it as Town. You'll notice shea was in this game and he was Scum there: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=73592

This is more well poisoning. You keep just bringing up that I was scum in this game but not drawing any conclusions from it. My play in this game has been quite different from my play in that game. If you disagree, state why, and if you don't disagree why the hell do you keep bringing it up?

[Thestatusquo]

@Gamma,

I said that me fighting my lynch in the way I have this game is NAI. I didn't say I only do it as Town. Here's a game example of where I have done it as Town. You'll notice shea was in this game and he was Scum there: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=73592

This is more well poisoning. You keep just bringing up that I was scum in this game but not drawing any conclusions from it. My play in this game has been quite different from my play in that game. If you disagree, state why, and if you don't disagree why the hell do you keep bringing it up?

How on earth is that well poisoning (at term I have never heard before btw)?

I said you were in that game because I said earlier that YOU could verify that I act this way as Town as well. You never confirmed me on that, so I decided to provide evidence to back up what I was saying.

You only talk about the things you don't like and never talk about the things you actually agree with. That leads to confbias.

You have specifically mentioned that I was in that game AS SCUM three times now. When I mention people who played with me before, I say "I was in x game with such and such" I don't typically feel the need to say what alignment they were, because its irrelevant to the point of getting them to confirm something about my meta. The only reason to continually bring up my alignment in that game is well poisoning (a term I have used in this game to describe you multiple times before in posts you have responded to)

But most importantly, why can't you answer that question. Was I playing the same in that game as I am here? You want me to meta you but you're ignoring MY meta, where I played completely differently in that game as scum than I am here.

[Thestatusquo]

The fuck. You're town reading me? You VOTED me.

[Thestatusquo]

I think you have played substantively different this game than that game. The way you have fought back against your wagon has been similar, but fighting back against a wagon is probably the easiest thing to do the same as both town and scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I've been very busy today, sorry, so just making a quick pop-in to say the whole swap situation makes me feel better about the Tchilllynch - it's certainly a better one than lynching Lickitung (even if Lickitung does post too much).

Can you explain this? I have no idea how the swap could make you happier about the lynch

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think that is what he's saying. I think that his point was simply that he can't give you town points because he thinks coming in and trying to switch the wagon on to the next most scum read player is really the only play you have in this situation if you're scum.

Llama can correct me if that's wrong.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: wgeurts

yeah i should have took my vote off postie apologies for that.

VOTE: wgeurts

yeah i should have took my vote off postie apologies for that.

Uh this vote is pretty bad, I don't know why you're voting a slot that hasn't posted right now?

You seem off this game now, you seem timid compared to other games

I looked a little harder.

This is the only Tchill13 post within those 200 posts.
The other is your response to it.

So this one post was enough for you to change completely how you feel on Tchill13.
And then later you do what you just complained to him for doing. Voting inactive slot. Not only that you push his activity as AI then admit you can’t prove it.

@Dunn

- Link me some games that show Tchill has a meta of lurking as scum?

Hm, I actually can't find any

There's still the matter of his actual posting looking different to where he is town, though

I'm kind of eyeing Cogito Ergo Sum and wondering if they're white knighting/defending scum and wondering if it's better to just go for them instead

After not being able to back those claims up you move on to a different claim that can’t be backed up.

considering that his main argument has been a meta argument about how chill was posting in other threads and not here, I think this line of argumentation is more than a little bit silly.

[Thestatusquo]

the first part obv, not the second.

[Thestatusquo]

Can you tell me why Mike cuz I'm not seeing it?

[Thestatusquo]

Oh llamarble.

[Thestatusquo]

You guys are really frustrating.

I'm sorry I know him in real life and called him by his first name by mistake? This seems like a weird thing to get mad at me for...

[Thestatusquo]

llamarble why are you ignoring me?

[Thestatusquo]

Shea what's your overall read on WGEURTZ/DAVSTO, please respond.

It was vague town lean based on the beginning of davsto's catchup, but if you want me to reread it's gunna have to wait for tomorrow. I'm in bed and phone posting. wgeurtz is obviously null.

re: llamarbles read I was hoping for a little more than that.

[Thestatusquo]

I like your list Ran; I would write something similar if giving an updated one (CES a bit lower since I don't think sticking nsck out as scum is difficult for him, at least to the extent done here).

Dan's 1144 is a good post, but in this town hunt I still say he is certainly less town than most still. But giving both Eddie and LQ townreads when as scum they need to be mislynched favors him. While possible, it doesn't especially strike me as him protecting eddiebuddy or lqbuddy either.

Eddie, why don't you seem to have much interest (aside from not you) in who eats rope today?

I don't get screen "hard town"

The problem with this, and with reading Dan in general I've found, is just that he is a very low impact player. He doesn't push, he doesn't make loud noises and he doesn't try to rally people to his side. So he gets away with stuff like this as scum. Not saying he is here, and I'm town reading. But I'm always wary of quiet players like this who only post dispassionate analysis. I've lost to them as scum too many times.

[Thestatusquo]

Also @ran will be getting to your desired Iso of Wgeurtz/davsto later today.

[Thestatusquo]

Postie would be a good fit for LQ buddy if we get a LQ scum flip. Also Tchill.

The only problem with that is that Postie seemed very town to me until this latest strong eddie push at DL and her refusal to give a full read list.

tl:dr I really like Ran's analysis on her even though it contradicts my own read, which ran acknowledges: "So in general, she plays an overall good seeming town game, yet at the same time she's trying to block town's progress in finding actual scum, while having the appearance of being town."

[Thestatusquo]

Also NSG played a town start the game and has kind of disappeared and done next to nothing as we approach deadline.


Something like this is where I'm at.

Llamarble
Ranmaru
Lycan

Gamma
CES
Davsto
Postie
AD
NSG

Marquis
Dunn
Eddie

LQ
Screenplay

[Thestatusquo]

Llamarble I'd like you to reevaluate NSG.

[Thestatusquo]

Tsq and Llamarble are doing really well of bouncing ideas of each other.
To bad they are wrong and not helpful.

This is disingenuous. First of all, I have caught up under threat of hammer before. Second, you're not even at L-1. Third, you should want the town to know your reads even if you're still eventually lynched if you're town.

[Thestatusquo]

I wish you'd stop saying that. It's ALSO disingenuous.

A large group of people deciding you're scum != apathy.

Absolutely no one in this game is apathetic about the game itself OR your slot. We just think you're scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Because you're complaining about how unreasonable we're being wanting you to catch up. I'm saying its not unreasonable, and you're not even under the threat of hammer you're complaining about.

Then read the thread. The fact that you're under pressure should have no bearing on whether you can catch up or not. The fact that you are suggesting it does it troubling.

[Thestatusquo]

Tsq and Llamarble are doing really well of bouncing ideas of each other.
To bad they are wrong and not helpful.

This is disingenuous. First of all, I have caught up under threat of hammer before. Second, you're not even at L-1. Third, you should want the town to know your reads even if you're still eventually lynched if you're town.

I’m starting to think you are not town.
I don’t like how you two have been tearing me in this replace in.
I think you guys are being disingenuous.
What makes you think I don’t want anyone to know my reads? I haven’t hid anything and don’t plan on it.
I recalled that I am at L-1.

Also, this post was meant to quote this one, not the one it did quote.:

How do you expect me to catch up with constant threats of a hammer?
It’s unreasonable.

Not sure what happened.

[Thestatusquo]

I think postie makes more sense with LQ than marquis. If postie is scum I think its with LQ.

[Thestatusquo]

I doubt Postie is scum.
Rc having his thought stated through her that I’m look Town makes no sense as scum.

Why?

Also, I think RC is garbage in general so I'm not really taking what he says into account much.

[Thestatusquo]

You know what I meant why, since you answered my question directly after..

[Thestatusquo]

Not super familiar with this player list.

Gamma as I recall is a free thinking townie. He lets his thoughts flow out however obscure they may be. A thinking out loud player.

ActionDan I’ve played with once. He was town. Iirc his nickname was Inaction dan. Didn’t post a lot but when he did it was with purpose and game developing thoughts. I got the vibe that is how he is playing here as well.

Re third paragraph:

Yeah, that's his play style. As I mentioned recently he's dangerous because of that. His scum game and his town game look much the same and both involve a lack of posts and dispassionate analysis. Dan is really hard to read.

pedit: fair enough. I think it is actually the opposite, but w/e.

[Thestatusquo]

How about fucking no? I'm not giving you free reign to try to slip a scum lynch without me to point out the fallacies in what you're saying.

No matter how much omgus and giving up AtE you spew.

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma how are your thoughts on what I said about Llamarble and TSQ?

"What do you think about these two people I said repeatedly were town being scum together after I couldn't convince them I wasn't scum"

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think either of you are being productive right now OR accurately assessing the other.

[Thestatusquo]

I think RC accusing me of tunneling is ridiculous. I voted tchill and was making cases on LQ as another top scum read. I interacted on many other points of discussion day 1, including posting a full read list and being willing to move elsewhere at DL if people weren't feeling either of the two wagons that I thought were most likely to be scum.

If RC wants to scum read me because I said I think he's bad at mafia, all the more power to him, but can he at least come up with some reasons that are even plausible?

[Thestatusquo]

I need to think about the flips because a part of what made LQ scum was the tchill associations. Not all of it, but some part. I think my votes going to end up there but I want to reread postie's eddie case and think about what the tchill flip means for LQ before I do.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: EddieFenix

I think that LQ being scum mostly makes sense from the perspective of tchill being scum. If tchill isn't scum a lot of LQs actions on that wagon look a lot better.

Willing to throw some muscle behind postie's push. I think the case makes a lot of sense.

Not really wanting to go after marquis. But if he tries to lurk through this day too I want him to eat rope really quick.

[Thestatusquo]

things you'd never do solo as town in my experiences playing with you

Like what?

Like... everything. Refusing to give more than one scumread, saying things like "LQ is bad town unless he unvotes my scumread then he's scum", the stuff that's a bit harsher and stuff, while I remember you (in the few games we've played) being a more traditional player (although maybe that's changed since the year or so we last played). Regardless, it's honestly just RC's playstyle - it's always given me scumvibes, and I'm trying not to let that get in the way, but the problem being it makes it a lot harder to grasp on a read.

My read on you will be decided soon, dependent on how I come out of this EddieFenix metadive, because it's something much more concrete to grasp on to.

Do you think your thoughts on Eddie's alignment will affect your thoughts on whether I'm making a town or scum push?

It's not my thoughts on Eddie's alignment per se, it's my thought on the distribution of meta, and how likely from the games that your meta read, even if wrong, comes from a place of town or scum.
For example, if I find most games fit with the patterns you've given, with a few differing, I could to some extent disagree with your push being a concrete-scum meta read but still give benefit of the doubt that it could come from a town place. On the other hand, if I find that a large proportion of games, particularly recent ones, don't fit your pattern, I will look unfavourably upon you.[/quote]
This is a very town post.

[Thestatusquo]

God dammit. I got infected by davstos inability to quote things correctly.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, I would like to talk reads.

CES, I want two more scum reads.

I posted a read list towards the end of day 2. My reads are mostly similar, except I have moved LQ down and moved Eddie up. I need to wagon dive later to see if I think there were opportunistic votes. I think the ces hammer was mostly fine.

An updated version would look something like this. Anything else you need to know ask me specifically.

Ranmaru
Lycan
Davsto

Gamma
CES
Postie
AD
NSG

Marquis
Dunn
LQ

Eddie
Screenplay

[Thestatusquo]

Lol, left tchill on it. Obvi he's not suspect number one any more.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah, RCs reasons for finding me scum are:
- I tunneled on tchill even though I wrote cases on my other top scum read, posted a read list, fully interacted on various other parts of the town including discussions on NSG, Gamma, Postie and Davsto/AD.
- I don't think he's a very good mafia player and apparently that means I'm scum because of my teammates.
- What the fuck did I copy paste from my town games?

[Thestatusquo]

Please give me examples of the actual copy/paste, because honestly it sounds like I'm being accused of being scum because firebringer noticed I'm playing in a manner similar to my town meta? Which honestly, that's just such a shockingly bad argument that I have to assume that he means something else.

I'll wait to here more in depth explanation before responding fully, but do you think my play yesterday constituted a tunnel? Cuz honestly I can't think anyone who was actually paying attention to this game would characterize my play that way.

[Thestatusquo]

I wasn't open to changing my stance.

If you look at this post:
viewtopic.php?p=9924772#p9924772

You'll see I explicitly said that, and I think I gave good reasons for it. I did not think that I could get a better read on srceenplay in 2-3 days than I got on tchill in the 12 days leading up to that. I did not think srceenplay could erase tchills play.

[Thestatusquo]

If your problem was that Tchill had ruined the slot, why did you also attack Srceenplay's play? Like I get that if you thought Tchill was scum, that makes Srceenplay scum too and you'll be viewing his actions in that light, but I feel like if the driving factor behind your push was Tchill's play then a more natural response would be to say "look your predecessor was scum so I'm not going to bother to sort you or interact with you".

a)
Is that not exactly what the post I just linked you says?
b)
My goal with srceenplay was to not let him wiggle out of the lynch as scum. All my posts were done with that in mind. Does that look bad for me now that he's flipped town? Yeah, but that's where my thought process was.

I don't think I did do a lot of attacking him though, I think you need to reread the end of the day. I mainly pointed out where I thought he was being logically inconsistent in his defense of himself/tchill. Mostly I just tried to make sure he couldn't stop the lynch. Which is what I do with players who I think are scum.

[Thestatusquo]

It's not like you can, with your play, make it so tchill did not play to his scum meta.

Can you give me links for the Tchill scum meta you referenced here?
When I asked Dunn he couldn't find me anything.

Most of it comes from the game that LQ keeps referencing where I was scum with him. I even mentioned it earlier in this game where I said that he was playing similarly to how he was playing in that game here, although more outwardly lurky here than he was there.

There's more to meta than lurking. I pointed out in that PT that I was able to write off tchill as a Vi because of the same posting pattern that made me think he was scum here. The difference is, I know from interacting with him in the PT that he knows better than that. He plays up a part when he's scum. It felt like he was playing that part here.

[Thestatusquo]

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

What do you think of RC/Postie's case on me and how does it make you feel about the slot?

[Thestatusquo]

I'd like to talk about your CES read, Shea. I'm good with the rest of your reads. I'm at work so will go over it in a bit.

Sure, though I'd note that the middle of my read list (esp. the category ces is in) is just of nebulous and subject to changes at a moments notice. Sort of how like Davsto has managed to pop out of it into the strong town lean with his posting today.

So obviously I'm interested in your perspectives on those slots in particular.

[Thestatusquo]

I was trying to win the fight. The louder player wins the fight every single time.

I think if you compare that to my interactions with others in this thread you'll notice that I have different tones for different purposes. You are right that I was using my "I am going to make sure this lynch is happening" tone. I think I had pretty good town reasons to do so. As I explained, exactly what you are accusing me of is what I was trying to do at the end of the day. We just disagree on my motivations.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, Ran, when you get a chance I'd like your opinion on Postie-Davsto cases on eddie.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah but that's the thing - your tone

didn't

feel loud. It felt more like you were pushing the lynch in a low-key way.
Ehh, it's whatever right now I guess.

RC says he's not too sure you're scum right now either he just hates the thought of scum taking a town leader position and preventing people from leading on scum.
I'd agree that if I die tonight, you're basically in a great position to lead town, and that's a scary thought in a TSQ!scum world.

I'm saying here right now that I was not pushing the lynch in a low key way. I was pushing the lynch. I succeeded. I was wrong.

My problem with this argument is just that I don't think anything about the way I've interacted today has suggested that I was trying to benefit from not being associated with the tchill lynch. If the argument is that I'm low key pushing it, one would assume that the scum motivation for doing that would be that I didn't want to get blamed for it. I just can't see how you square that thought with anything I've done or said since.

The second part is the first reasonable thing that RC has said about my slot so far.

[Thestatusquo]

My problem with this argument is just that I don't think anything about the way I've interacted today has suggested that I was trying to benefit from not being associated with the tchill lynch. If the argument is that I'm low key pushing it, one would assume that the scum motivation for doing that would be that I didn't want to get blamed for it. I just can't see how you square that thought with anything I've done or said since.

Nah it's more like
It felt like you didn't want to sit back too far so you interacted with Tchill to seem ~involved~ while not actually getting so involved as to draw attention to yourself

I don't think thats a fair assessment of my play at all.

[Thestatusquo]

CES, I want two more scum reads.

Eddie is the other big one. I don't particularly care about meta with Eddie; he just posts these long walls that have no absolutely no forward motion in them. Going 30 pages without voting on Day 1 is also something I can't recall seeing from Town (conversely, I know that that sort of thing happens to scum - they unvote at some point and then have a tough time finding a natural point to go "I'm confident enough to vote now"). The main thing that gives me pause is that I don't really trust Postie.

My second tier of scum reads is Postie and Gamma Emerald; I'll just comment on Postie for now since I need to get a good night's sleep. I'm not fond of Postie's early game, a lot of which feels like it's more at looking good than actually scumhunting - #446 is the clearest example of that to me; if you look at it superficially, it's "hey, in-depth questions! good!" but it's so overboard as to be counterproductive. When I read that post, I expected none of the questions in it to receive answers - as far as I can tell, that is in fact what happened and Postie also didn't follow up. I have a harder time judging her play since the Eddiepush started - I agree with the gist of it, obviously, but it seems like an easy thing for Postie to focus on regardless of alignment.

If theres a wagon on one of your top scum reads why are you not on it? Reticence of the person making it shouldn't outweigh the fact that you're scum reading the person the case is on.

[Thestatusquo]

Also @postie I saw your post. I'll get to it when I get home from work.

[Thestatusquo]

From skimming the pages that popped up last night and the end of yesterday I know I have a bit to respond to but I have a very busy day at work so I can't make any promises as to when I'll get to everything.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok I will make myself do this game today despite how busy work is.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, this is going to be a bit of a long post. To cut down noise I'll bold who I am responding to and link the post I'm talking about and spoiler the actual response.

@postie

Post 1449

Spoiler:

One of the earliest things that had me move postie into the town category is her approach to RVS as well as her posts in the beginning of the day. They just seemed super interested in spurring discussion and creating sorts as well as helping other people sort. Her interaction with NSG day 1 is a good example of that latter thing, but as for the former, specifically post 14 and post 16 pinged my towndar super hard.

I liked that the posts in isolation attempted to bring the RVS into sharper less R focus early on, and in particular I liked post 16 as a clarification on post 14 quite a bit. This isn’t really something that scum do. Postie’s post 14 was definitely good enough from both a scum and town perspective. She wasn’t going to get any heat for it. It fit in perfectly with how RVS goes, but the inclination and motivation to go back in and clarify this early is super townie.

In addition to that, hiplop was in my ear calling postie town because he thought that the amount you were deferring to RC early on implied a nervousness and lack of confidence that he would expect in postie town and not scum. Basically he said that a lot of your early posts read like RC had made them, which makes sense to him with you as town but not as scum because he expects you to ask RC for input more as town than scum because he thinks you’re not a very confident town player.

Basically it was a culmination of small town tells and hippo telling me that you were town. Seemed good enough to throw you in the town pile for me.

@ran

Post 1432

Spoiler:

My ces read is basically that CES is being useless but that this doesn't make him scum. If you look at The first mafia, for instance, he's very similar in my eyes. Hyper focused on weirdly specific parts of the game. Relatively same level of participation in the game by total post count, its similar right down to the hammer graphic he posted in this game. He's a little bit more aggressive in his hyper specific focuses, but that's a pretty small difference in play. Basically I think everyone scum reading ces isn't really bothering to meta him. I'm not saying he's town, as you can see by my read list but I think lockscumming him over other players doesn't make a lot of sense once you look deeper into his meta.

@ran

Post 1572

Spoiler:

I think that LQs reaction that wagon basically (jumping on, jumping off, trying to feel the waters for various counter wagons.) was not consistent with how I would expect scum to approach a wagon with a town player. Is there some scum equity in the way he played? Yeah. And he's still suspect in my eyes, because as you mentioned theres a lot of LQ stuff that is anti town (I myself made those cases yesterday.) and that doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of trying to find scum but does make a lot of sense in terms of trying to figure out who he can ML. Is it possible that scum-LQ thought that the tchill wagon was guaranteed so they thought they could act in unsure townie ways towards it? Yeah thats possible. Could they be scum trying to stay off a wagon they knew was townie? Yeah, that's also possible. If anything I think LQs reaction to the wagon is the closest thing to what postie accused me of earlier. BUT I'm putting LQ on the back burner because I think that the case on Eddie is really strong. And I want to sheep it.

Let me know if I missed something or if theres anything else I need to respond to right now. The state of the game seems basically to me to be eddie and the resistence to eddie. I'm still on the eddie side.

[Thestatusquo]

Actually I'm pretty sure reasoning out my response to ran makes me think that there's a higher chance of scum LQ approaching the wagon the way he did than I was previously thinking.