White Flag - TM2020
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VOTE: wgeurts
I chose this game because I prefer mountainous setups, or at least setups that are as close to vanilla as possible. Especially if I'm going to be try-harding for an event like Team Mafia, I'd like the game itself to be as simple as possible so all I really have to focus on are the fundamentals of the game.
Why did you ask that question?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think Team Mafia in general is town sided because of the higher presence of experienced players compared to a normal game on the site + the team aspect. Thinking about the game like that is an easy way to get complacent though so like, whatever. Regardless this game isn't one you can really blame on the setup no matter how it swings.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.
I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I would sort of expect this kind of comment to be accompanied by a vote, is there a reason it's not?In post 47, Cephrir wrote:When I saw how active FF was being I thought I would have a townread on him by the time I caught up, but I don't!-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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That's why I asked gobble why he asked it. I'm skeptical but I'll be polite and wait for him to give his explanation.In post 50, Auro wrote:How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Why was this something you felt the need to wait to reveal?In post 55, gobbledygook wrote:
Well it speaks to the type of person you are generally which is what I want to explore. It is helpful for me to know what type of people I am dealing with since I haven’t played with many of you.In post 50, Auro wrote:How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.
Do you think it is a bad idea to try and introduce discussion into the game?
I don’t think your question is necessarily scum motivated but RQS can be an easy thing for scum to hide behind in order to look like they’re doing something. “Discussion” or any type is not always a net positive and your question to Auro feels a little leading? Do you see why people might be so suspicious of what could be viewed as an empty question?
Also Dongempire, is your vote serious?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I am leaning towards that you're both town. I see what Cephrir is saying about gobble having wooden posting. It's not an insult, in fact I usually have that quality too when I'm try harding in RVS early as town.
But regardless of how effective gobble's question is to generating AI discussion, I think he seems pretty earnest about it?
My only problem is the amount of defensiveness you've shown gobble, and why you've jumped so quickly to Cephrir making a bad faith read on your slot. I get it if you don't think your posting has been bad at all (which is a purely subjective thing), but do you at least see why Auro/me would interpret your question as empty? Also, do you have any reads beyond Cephrir at this point?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Me being skeptical about your methods wasn't me being skeptical about your alignment. I'm town reading you, mostly off tone so it's a very not-strong™ read but something I'm willing to stick with for now. I mainly asked because I was wondering if your questioning produced any readable content for you beyond Cephrir.In post 98, gobbledygook wrote:I honestly do not know what to make of you. I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to
I like both that Cephrir went to the effort to case the wooden tone he took issue with and then also didn't want to drag out the discussion needlessly. A lot of the time scum relishes in pointless arguing.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I feel those two games were outliers. More often than not—if you'll allow me to brag for a moment—I'm pretty good at obv-towning as town. You can see my recent Micros in Penguin Mafia III and Forest Fire for proof, although I know you're not too much of a meta guy.
That town game in particular is one of my worst town games in recent history and I'm not super proud of it. Overall, I think my scum game is more wooden and static than my town game but asikdfodfjsofijdsferhauihjnrskdf
Let's stop talking about meta
Can you elaborate on where FF is hitting near the right notes for you? Or even why your teammate is town reading FF would be helpful. He's a slot I keep coming back to and can't make up my mind about.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I'm trying not to let this specifically influence my read because I think this is just who FF is as a personIn post 120, Cephrir wrote:and i think he's not afraid to make waves and that's good
but I think I'm finally vibing with a town read
I don't have any scum reads yet but I guess I can live with that-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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It was the post just after the wagon. It felt a bit overly apologetic or preemptively defensive to him, and he thinks that attitude can fit your scum meta. Wasn't enough to form a read off of he just warned me to keep an eye on you.In post 126, Auro wrote:Dann, can you ask the worst about what exactly pinged him from my entrance?
I almost always tend to wagon in RVS.
Sleeping now, will give thoughts on other stuff tomorrow.
Hopkirk, why the Kittymo vote?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I want you to explain, I'm town reading her.In post 133, Hopkirk wrote:You want me to explain or you want to sheep?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Think you may have misread my post or the context?In post 179, wgeurts wrote:Why are you mulling over people pocketing you?
Can you elaborate on why you don't like Auro? Also, specifically what about Cephrir vs. Gobble feels TvT to you? Mostly interested in those two answers when you're feeling less tired. I've reached sort of the same conclusion regarding Cephrir and Gobble but I'm not very confident both those reads are right yet.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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My point in asking that question to Gobble was to determine whether his rather OMGUS push on Cephrir and suspicion of Auro came from an incredulous town place or awkward scum. Based off tone, I feel like gobble is town who has come in and made some awkward posts/flubs that they're having trouble recovering from. The problem is, I don't have solid reasoning for why they aren't just scum instead—besides gut—soooooo very not confident read. Except for the fact that I think it's just not that easy.In post 147, KittyMo wrote:Dannflor asked gobble twice something along the lines of whether gobble gets why people might be concerned he's asking an empty question. Ironically, I think concerns that someone initiating RQS is scum "hiding behind" it has been overblown every single time I have ever seem an RQS. It's of course good to know why gobble asked the question, but I ironically think overly nitpicking RQS is an easy thing for scum to do to look like they're doing something. In turn, I have a small amount of beef with Auro in particular for opening with the assumption that it will yield nothing useful, and also with Dannflor for seeming to try to overly emphasize it's only reasonable to be suspicious of gobble. I do, however, appreciate Dann's analysis that the wooden tone from gobble fits with tryhard town, which is evidence Dann is trying to get a real read from this.
I don't know. I'm waiting on him to respond to Dunnstrall's walls hopefully with a bit of a cooler head.
Overall, I think he's been a bit too careless/hyperactive to be scum here. Like I see the points others are making about his tone being more defensive here, but my gut is saying frustrated town.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VOTE: Formerfish
FF, are you like legit scum reading me at this point or still on the fence? If the latter, do you have any questions about my posts/play so far that I can address and get you moving in a more concrete direction? I'd expect you to be going after me a little more here in either case.
Also, I think you're overstating the amount of content you've contributed. You've got some mechanical talk and some needlessly aggressive one liners but not too much else beyond the bluster. I did like when you engaged with me briefly! But that didn't really end up going anywhere. So where is your head at now? Like reads wise.
I read stuff like #151 and #153 and can't tell if you're just blustering to bluster or if you are finding Gobble legitimately scummy.
I'm not asking for a structured reads list necessarily I just want to know what your strongest gut feels or reads are that you've picked up so far.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I was curious because I had mixed feelings on FF at the time, still do tbh. And I wanted to know if you scum read him, what the reasons for that were.
Honestly? I remember liking the brief interaction I had with him, but looking back it's a lot more lacking than I though.In post 199, Auro wrote:
I've quoted a few, but it's hard to provide concrete examples of something that's missing.In post 197, Dannflor wrote:Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?
Do you not get the same impression looking at his engagements with other slots - that he's not making an attempt to sort them through the engagements?
@Cephrir, you mentioned thinking I was towny as scum and scummy as town. Does that mean you think I'm "towny" this game? What are your feelings on me now/have they changed since you were voting me?
also unrelated and I know Cephrir is a strong scum player, but I sort of have a hard time seeing a post like this coming from scum in his positionIn post 202, Cephrir wrote:I could respond to those posts, but it strikes me as deeply pointless.
@Auro, can you explain you hop from Ceph to Dong and back again? Specifically, what's your read on Dong right now and how scummy do you find him compared to Ceph?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I care too much about what people think of me. That's a character flaw, not alignment indicative.In post 205, wgeurts wrote:
I was tired and wrote this the wrong way round. Why are you mulling over others thinking they'd think you're pocketing someone else? As town behaviour it's a bit odd but as scum behaviour it would be paranoia. Particularly early game who really thinks someone else is going to be actively pocketing?In post 179, wgeurts wrote:
Why are you mulling over people pocketing you? That's not usually something that comes to mind as town this early game when most of the content is without weight.In post 40, Dannflor wrote:It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.
I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I see the other two but why wgeurtsIn post 221, northsidegal wrote:my current working townblock is {dunn, kittymo, wgeurts}-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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like yeah you can read this as "scum afraid to engage," but it's really not hard for scum to engage and just bullshit towny stuffIn post 227, Cephrir wrote:
I neither have nor need any.In post 219, Auro wrote:
More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?In post 208, Cephrir wrote:My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion
I don't think this makes Ceph town alone but it's not a reason to scum read him-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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It reads like scum who sees something town does that looks really scummy on a surface level and thinks it's a safe vote, when in actuality if they were town they would've taken more time to consider why scum!Cephrir would behave this way
also Dongempire I'm not really seeing your scum read on Cephrir here, like why it exists beyond "his posts are bad"
he's one person posting one-liners in a sea of walls, but I'm not sure that's inherently scummy?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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eddie cane said you were townIn post 233, Hopkirk wrote:Why's that? I don't remembering playing with any of your team (anytime recently if at all) so I'm assuming not meta?
I trust his reads a lot
Also, even though I disagreed with it, I thought your explanation for the scum read on kittymo was especially towny. I thought it showed a level of looking deeper when it's a lot easier to just give her a free town read for having pleasant posts.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I just like a friendly guy yknowIn post 229, Hopkirk wrote:On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I feel like your level of engagement with Cephrir has been a lot more thorough than Dong's, and from what I gather I think your scum read goes deeper than just vague statements about his posting. I still disagree with your read overall but I think the way you've approached it is a lot townier than the way he has.
To clarify, you're town reading Dongempire now?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Unsure what this question is supposed to mean? Am I not supposed to form reads on people I've never played with before?In post 300, Dunnstral wrote:If you've never played with them before, why do you think they are town?
Usually games are not like this one. We're 12 pages in and half my strongest reads are still only based off gut pings and vague reasoning. Maybe I'm just bad!In post 300, Dunnstral wrote:Low effort + unjustified townreads don't "kickstart" games, and usually people aren't trying to "see what sticks" with townreads, seems more like you're just saying words and tmi reading people as town.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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the worst also concurs! Although he has not read the entire game I don't think and has no other reads besides youIn post 332, Auro wrote:@Dann, somehow I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my being the "most confident" town read. Does tw concur?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I'm kind of here now. My inclination is to spend time on my own catching up and replying to the big wall posts from last page and a couple pages ago, but since there are people online I suppose I should interact with y'all. Is there anything specific anyone wants me to address in real time right now?
Are we all talking about Auro right now-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I see. I didn't like picking at Auro for that especially given that I (and seemingly many others put in this game) don't have the most time in the world. That doesn't mean we still can't give it our all. It's scummy in that it's a very non-game related way to push someone but I need to see more from that slot in general.
His entrance gut town pinged me. Specifically #265 and #282.. I have no meta with him I just liked those posts as a way to immediately get into the game and start pushing on a deeper level. There's no long useless catch-up which I've seen a little bit of this game.In post 435, Auro wrote:
Yup, your Esp read!In post 429, Dannflor wrote:Is there anything specific anyone wants me to address in real time right now?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Also one of the reasons I was very surprised to see NSG put wgeurts in her town block and why I questioned that. I think I saw you were asking me about that, FF?In post 437, Dannflor wrote:I see. I didn't like picking at Auro for that especially given that I (and seemingly many others put in this game) don't have the most time in the world. That doesn't mean we still can't give it our all. It's scummy in that it's a very non-game related way to push someone but I need to see more from that slot in general.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I really respect her reads and by extension RC's reads. If someone I know to be a good player is town reading someone, I want to know why. Regardless of whether they're towny or scummy within the specific game.In post 440, Formerfish wrote:
I think i did, something about why you would listen to anything NSG has said.In post 438, Dannflor wrote:
Also one of the reasons I was very surprised to see NSG put wgeurts in her town block and why I questioned that. I think I saw you were asking me about that, FF?In post 437, Dannflor wrote:I see. I didn't like picking at Auro for that especially given that I (and seemingly many others put in this game) don't have the most time in the world. That doesn't mean we still can't give it our all. It's scummy in that it's a very non-game related way to push someone but I need to see more from that slot in general.
I mean I ask my scum reads about their reads a lot too, so I'm not sure why you assume I'd want to ignore NSG either way.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't know if you posted before I was replaced hahaIn post 441, Espeonage wrote:Dann, I was the original gentleman 2.
At least I don't remember if you did-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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This is one of the reasons I reflex voted you last night after skimming your walls. I thought the things you were questioning me for were kinda odd and a little conf-biasy in a "you've already decided I'm gonna be your scum read" type of way.In post 444, Dannflor wrote:so I'm not sure why you assume I'd want to ignore NSG either way.
But I'm gonna read your posts for real now so maybe I'll get a different impression. I do wanna talk about this point especially, however.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Also, as far as the discourse around nsg goes, I think if she's scum here than she's not really going to be much of a threat in the end.
If she's town, it behooves us to give her the benefit of the doubt and hopefully eventually the time and space to work in this game and swing the game in our favor.
I also don't really believe nsg would pull real life stuff into the game as an excuse for lurking if she was indeed to trying to lurk as scum.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Haven't read them in detail yet.In post 458, Auro wrote:
I mean after the last few pages. Ceph seems townier from them, Esp not.In post 437, Dannflor wrote:His entrance gut town pinged me. Specifically #265 and #282.. I have no meta with him I just liked those posts as a way to immediately get into the game and start pushing on a deeper level. There's no long useless catch-up which I've seen a little bit of this game.
I haven't scum read Ceph at all this game—yeah I know I voted him—Esp is a very weak read so I'll let you know if it changes after I catch up.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I lied about reading, because I went to make more food first. NOW I am reading.
I voted him because I was frustrated with the gamestate (see: VC's with everyone voting a different person) and wanted to build an actual concrete wagon on someone since my pushes on you and Dongempire were going nowhere. I also was the least sure about him of the leading wagons at the time so it was the best place for my vote to go I thought.
The people I feel I have a good grasp on are Hopkirk and Auro, and I think I'll have a pretty solid grasp on FF and Cephrir once I'm done reading.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Okay, read Page 15 and I'm gonna respond to FF since that page was basically all FF. Esp posted a little bit and his posts were... not great / not terrible. I want to know his thoughts on non Auro people.
Was not meant as an insult. I just think you have a naturally confrontational way of playing the game—which is not a bad thing!In post 357, Formerfish wrote:Should i be insulted by the bold?
Biggest take away from the 1st 5 is a town lean on Ceph based on his vote hoping and the pressure he's putting on slots already.
I don't like how bogged down Dann got with Gob and the RQS about why this game as I posted above I think that there could be info to gain from this.
Why didn't you like my questioning of Gob? Like you say there could be more here but don't really expand on that, and it's one of the issues I had skimming last night. Like Gob's posting was one of the only bits of content in the game at the time, idk what else you wanted me to engage with, was it how I engaged with it?
I'm gonna be honest, Dunnstral's posts make me want to fall asleep every time I try to read them, but I think this points more towards town. In very general terms, I think scum are a little more aware of their progressions and making sure they make sense or that there's a paper trail.In post 360, Formerfish wrote:Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.
what was the part you liked? There's not much thereIn post 360, Formerfish wrote:Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.
I feel like if I was in a position where I was lacking reasons to scum read someone, I would just park my vote on one of the many lurkers this game. I wouldn't need to blatantly ask people to hand me scum reads. My questioning was more about sorting Dongempire and less you.In post 365, Formerfish wrote:Can you go into your mixed feelings more? Im kinda getting the feeling that youre fishing for reasons to scum read me for some reason and you have nothing right now so you are looking to latch on to someone elses reasons as an excuse to get off the fence on me.
But I think I understand how you as town would see that post and think that. I really didn't like it last night but I understand it more now.
Already addressed the NSG thing.
I addressed this too but I think Auro approached the read differently, even if they got to the same conclusion. I took specific issue with theIn post 365, Formerfish wrote:How do you feel about Auro since has basically did the same things as Dong here? Are you tring Auro since you think scumDong latched onto his bad read on Ceph?wayDong did what he did, not what he did specifically.
This frustrates me a little. I pushed you! I thought you were scummy and wanted to engage with you, but you kinda disappeared for a couple days. So I pushed Dong instead because he did something that pinged me, and that didn't go anywhere. I feel like those were both "my" pushes. My "random stuff" is not based on nothing, just small things in an attempt to give the game more content—as it feels we're recycling some of the same arguments a lot.In post 365, Formerfish wrote:You could push a scum read of your own? I feel like this whole game you have been asking questions and have been talking a lot but i havent seen a push from you yet, have i? Why jumpstart the game with saying random stuff to see what happens when you have barely said your own reads.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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