TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[davesaz]

VOTE: gif
Sowing confusion

[davesaz]

Who tries harder than normal isn't something I would have expected to need to think about.

[davesaz]

It's page 4 and he throws a big read list

Do you think normal uninformed reaction here is to be "mmm ok" with it?

Have you ever played with Fark before? What's your take on heavy logical players?

This seems towny.

[davesaz]

I'm mostly looking around and waiting everyone to post enough to find meaningful posts for everyone or something

Waiting around to give reads you mean? Do you think the interactions you're getting from the other people are good?

[davesaz]

Also I called it bad purely because it was out of place.

I interpret this opinion as in everyone is currently null to you?

Correct me if i am wrong - i fail to see the need of commenting my readlist if you don't agree nor disagree with it, unless you think i made it up in which case you are currently scumleaning me - again, please tell me where i am wrong, i don't want to put words in your mouth, just voicing my thoughts

Pretty good awareness here.

[davesaz]

Flavour is likely relevant to neighbourhoods. Beyonce could probably fit in several neighbourhoods

This is an interesting observation, hadn't thought of it that way.

[davesaz]

meta reason i am not aware of

would be my guess.

[davesaz]

but flow in a way that makes it so I'm not really inclined to read them beyond surface level

Can you give an example of this? I'm not seeing it.

[davesaz]

VOTE: flavor leaf

[davesaz]

I understand chenn’s Post and see why those things are interpreted that way but they are the type of things I’d townread that player for. So far anyway the game is young. Might agree with scumreading others for that.

[davesaz]

Fl link a town game you started off disinterested in. I just saw a scumgame where you weren’t your usual playful self.

[davesaz]

I agree that I have seen the not wanting to dominate thing.
Just got out of the shower. The juxtaposition would have bothered a younger me lol.

[davesaz]

@volpe I don't think keeping scumreads secret is at all helpful to town.

[davesaz]

Hmm, I think I mostly finished? my very early reads and I'm looking at:

[Volpe]
[Elements]
[GiF, Fark?, Espresso]
[everyone else] - null or nullscum

I don't think I'm really on board with what FL is doing on the page I'm reading, but this reads list struck me as strange. In particular what has Elements done to deserve being highest town read?

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:

Yes, it was a lolvote. Thought I'd take a swing at a beehive and see what happened.

You need to read my entire post before trying to interpret whether I'm defending Volpe. (hint: not)
There is a big difference between liking / not liking the substance of a push, and having a read on the target.

[davesaz]

Actually, there's also a big difference between not liking and not being on board. I had something like 4 pages to read and another one got posted while I wrote my 2nd post.
I'm gonna take my wife to get ice cream. Hopefully FL has pulled his head out his ass with respect to me before I'm back.

pedit: and another half page writing this one

[davesaz]

BTW serious FL is still not fun FL. Be interesting to find out post game whether this is all because of that naked vote though.

[davesaz]

You don’t like the push but you’re on board...?

No, what I said was not on board. Not joining along with, which carries no direct connotation of agreeing with or not agreeing with. I guess it does carry a vague kinda "wtf is that" feel. And that post was

strictly

about the page containing the post I quoted the reads list from.

I have a very strong mistrust of that Elements town read, which seems completely unwarranted especially given the ratio of Elements posting of real content to a dozen others. That may or may not result in an independent scumread there regardless of what your thing yields.

Pedit: you can turn off the self promotional subtext. I'd like to be able to continue enjoying the game, please.

[davesaz]

I'm writing on a keyboard with 10 fingers and you people are still posting faster.

[davesaz]

Hmm, I think I mostly finished? my very early reads and I'm looking at:

[Volpe]
[Elements]
[GiF, Fark?, Espresso]
[everyone else] - null or nullscum

What has Elements done to deserve being highest town read?

This is a pretty significant question.

[davesaz]

@FL why did you jump from FoS on chenn to a hard attack on someone who voted him?

[davesaz]

It does look generic and nonsensical, but that's exactly why I think it's kinda positive. Elements is the kind of scum player that would try to look like he's doing stuff, solving the game, etc. However since he's lynched quite a lot, I thought about the possibility of him being scum and not wanting to spill the beans. However, that vote on me really doesn't make sense in that case in my opinion.

In that moment, not even you had expressed any kind of doubt on me and I had the most town leans/positive feedback in-thread I think, therefore he's like, drawing attention to himself in a push he can hardly justify (and it was a naked vote, rather than him trying to give any sort of reason for it).

For someone who reacted really strongly to being voted by FL, I'm surprised that the primary reason for a townread would be someone who naked voted you. Maybe that's an oversimplification, but it's the type of thing that catches my eye. Have you played with Elements as both alignments?

[davesaz]

Nom's post quotes are out of order, the middle one comes first.

Can't remember if I've said so in this game, but I can't read the meaning of most images and tend to just skip image only posts as noise. I even jumped all over someone who was posting only frog(?) images with different expressions because as far as I'm concerned it's the next best thing to an unbreakable code.

That said, I think the first two are jokes. Maybe...

[davesaz]

I do wish the VC's were in order of number of votes, but I understand it's largely a mod style/counting method thing.

[davesaz]

This is only for the outed threesome, no other hoods need reply.

In fact if the outed 3 prefer not to answer that's fine too.
I have no idea if the theory behind the question holds any water so do not consider it mechanical just yet. It may be a curiosity and have nothing to do with alignment. But now that we have an outed group it's feasible to pose the question.

Your hood's group is named for some aspect of entertainment biz, if it follows the two examples I have to work with. The individuals should have flavor names and the group members know all 3 names.
Are all members of the group flavor obviously members of the group's aspect? For example the sample PM's are Executive Producers. Another one might be singers, musicians, songwriters, IDK. Are the flavor names of the singers group all singers? Not asking for what your group's type is or the names, or who the oddball is if there is one. Just a yes or no for your group they all obviously fit the group's theme or not.

I'm not asking for discussion on the implied theory either, not yet. We have other better things going on right now.

[davesaz]

@nom, you can chalk the lack of response to exhaustion at least on my part. Most of the thread wasn't even awake at the time.

I had to read the whole hood reveal thing in iso to get a handle on it. Some of the events were far enough apart in the thread that it wasn't apparent they were even related until after the fact. I was catching up for part of it and it was even less apparent on skim than it was on normal speed.

I don't see why it was urgent for nom to have that discussion in this thread. I don't think we were going to have an overnight quick lynch even if the 1v1 didn't dissipate. Stuff from the hood could have been discussed in the hood.

Gif's reaction to the discrepancy being pointed out seems out of proportion to the info that had been revealed up to that point. He could connect the hood discussion to it, but nobody else could without further information. And forgetting to unvote is such an easy explanation for the apparent discrepancy. Why get so riled up over such a tenuous connection?

[davesaz]

Thought of a question -- if you were so invested in keeping your hood secret, why make posts like "you of all people should know" when all that does is hilight a connection to the other player that shouldn't exist unless...

[davesaz]

Dave has asked a lot of easy questions and made a lot of under-the-radar posts, however the reason I'm not confident is because of stuff like this

Should I interpret this as meaning you think those posts are town?

[davesaz]

now I'm definitely convinced that the lot of us are reading entirely different games

Huh? Care to elaborate?

[davesaz]

Wow, I would have thought Maria had played enough games with me to not be so completely wrong about what to expect.

[davesaz]

I understand chenn’s Post and see why those things are interpreted that way but they are the type of things I’d townread that player for. So far anyway the game is young.

Might agree with scumreading others for that

.

What does this even mean?

This bolded sentence? You do poorly in English? It means that I strongly disagreed with that specific post from chenn because whatever chenn was scumreading someone for was something that I think that individual would do as town. Other people posting the same thing might be scummy. It's just as clear as what I wrote. Two people post the same thing, one person it would be scummy another person it wouldn't be.

[davesaz]

@Davez I need to ask. That hood flavor post before, what were you trying to get at and do your own hood have someone sticking out for flavor reasons?

I don't know yet whether it's relevant to anything or not. I don't know whether the designer would be careless enough for it to matter.
Second part is maybe. I too would need to google a bunch to find out.

[davesaz]

I feel like if it's 4 man team and no third party, town probably lose this game more often than not

but hmm I'm ready to be surprised

Was this in reply to something? Strictly by the numbers and using the sample PMs for clues, I'd expect 4 and a SK. My hood knows that I have this opinion.

[davesaz]

I do agree that daves could produce more content though.

Got news for you, this is above average for a D1 from me. The timing is good in that holiday interrupts from family are almost gone and 90% of my coworkers took this as a vacation week.

Pedit: yes DEB has been noticed.

[davesaz]

@FL why did you jump from FoS on chenn to a hard attack on someone who voted him?

This is a generic post. I don't see anything of value in it. Although I assume the 'value' you're talking about Fark is the timing.

Of course it's generic. Sometimes it helps to be subtle.
"Hey dude did you just chainsaw that guy?" isn't going to get the same kind of answer.

For someone who reacted really strongly to being voted by FL, I'm surprised that the primary reason for a townread would be someone who naked voted you. Maybe that's an oversimplification, but it's the type of thing that catches my eye. Have you played with Elements as both alignments?

We look at this and basically what Dave is doing is poking holes in their logic. It’s a valid question, but my main question is why does this come from town over scum?

Again, subtle is often better than a sledgehammer. If a random person you don't know naked votes you it will evoke a much different response from someone you know well. Maybe there is a perfectly good reason the reactions are different. Maybe there isn't a good reason and the target of the question is just scum who ignored someone who isn't a threat but went bananas when a real threat targeted them.

I get the starting from an assumption of scum method. I get the expecting people to be bulls in a china shop when they're town. That's not how you read me.

You also ignore me slapping FL in the face with a fish, or at least I think you did. No scum in their right mind does that, really. And no I'm not doing it for kicks and giggles. I suspect FL pretty strongly tbh.

That's enough of responding to people who mentioned me while I was on mobile. Time to eat salmon for dinner.

[davesaz]

I think it's really, really weird that you play the pronoun game here instead of referring to Farkran by name and make no mention of the content of what I said (merely that it was a scumread) in both the first quote and this clarifier post

In this post, I have no memory of who the first post was about. At that point in time I'm replying to Maria and I don't want to open a 2nd tab.

I'll have to look back at the original to know why on the first one but it's possible that I read a bunch of stuff and then wrote my post in the quick reply window at the bottom, at which point I had remembered what you said but not who it was about. (When someone says hi I'm ___ I often forget their name 3 sentences into the conversation by the way, that's a me thing -- I'd love to know why) In either case, I currently have no memory of the exchange I commented on, contents / people, anything.

[davesaz]

I've ISO dug him and looked specifically for "stuff that sounds like he's doing stuff but won't be dug in too deeply." I came out with pretty much his entire ISO.

Please read these quotes word-for-word and not gloss over them. I initially got a towny feel from him because I wasn't really considering his content or tone specifically but rather the general feels he gave, which I think is pretty common in scum players these days.

(I might double-check with meta if I feel like it but I think Farkran being scum is likely to be independent of meta.)

Why does that have to be the case?

That's my question to you. You went out of your way to say i am pocketing you, but made no mention of my other townreads.

I think town would have either said nothing or ask me why i am townreading them and the other guys rather than instantly fossing me for pocketing.

Why? Do you agree with my other reads so much that you don't need to question them?

Uncharacteristically serious reaction to something that was probably meant to be jokey. Reads poorly through a tone perspective as well.

Ok

Honestly I'm mostly fucking around atm, I don't actually believe that

VOTE: ankamius

Reconsidering my previous read after this very weak exchange

@a50 what do you think of anka rn?

Also weird, don't understand the A50 callout

Spoiler: a million flavour signals

Okay.

Moving onto more important topics.

Do we have any single ladies in the house tonight?

I'm a pringle mingle and ready to single

Now put your hands up!

‘Cause if you like it then you shoulda put a ring on it

All the single ladies

(All the single ladies)

You make crumbing look like a baking contest.

This post is observant of you, but it lacks a conclusion statement - do you think deas flavor could be AI, or indicative of anything else relevant? Was it just a note?

This is terrible.

The quote from EP is also pretty bad.

@volpe generally speaking i understand your concerns but surely you must have some thoughts about anka now, if not about him directly, you should have noticed some people revolving around him

From your posts i get that you're trying to give your direction to the game and that is NAI - not being trustful of other players fits either with a paranoid town mindset or a scum looking for a broad lynchpool

Which one are you?

Personally my opinion of Fark's list is "bad."
Not alignment-indicative. Just bad.
Farkran how confident are you in your scum game?

I like playing scum, won 2 games so far, one of them being the one you recently hostes so you should know more than other players here how i go around as scum

What makes my list bad to you? As in, what reads would you consider wrong and why?

First line is pretty NAI

Second seems too earnest

@volpe generally speaking i understand your concerns but surely you must have some thoughts about anka now, if not about him directly, you should have noticed some people revolving around him

From your posts i get that you're trying to give your direction to the game and that is NAI - not being trustful of other players fits either with a paranoid town mindset or a scum looking for a broad lynchpool

Which one are you?

You've watched me solve that normal 2106 in the dead thread, didn't you?

Do you think you need to ask what kind of player I'm? Do you really have no speculations of your own?

I honestly forgot about you in the normal dead chat, sorry i remember liking your posts but i didn't associate them with your nickname (i.e. in my mind i went like "player x posted stuff i like"). It may be helpful but i cannot form a super specific profile of you based on that only. Spectating is way different than actively playing.

That being said i already offered my interpretation of your posts here, and i want to hear more of your opinions of the current gamestate.

Right now you are mostly dodging questions and/or turning them back at who asked them, which is fine for a while but some answers would also be appreciated

This is pretty awful like actually READ this post.

"Right now you are mostly dodging questions and/or turning them back at who asked them,

which is fine for a while but some answers would also be appreciated

"

What the actual heck is this

How did he get away with this

Also I called it bad purely because it was out of place.

I interpret this opinion as in everyone is currently null to you?

Correct me if i am wrong - i fail to see the need of commenting my readlist if you don't agree nor disagree with it, unless you think i made it up in which case you are currently scumleaning me - again, please tell me where i am wrong, i don't want to put words in your mouth, just voicing my thoughts

The content isn't necessarily

bad

per say, but I don't really think that an actual town human being really thinks this. Sounds like scum trying to cover bases

Tone is weird.

Last post because I'm getting back to work

I did answer you on ank/vex though so I'm not sure what I'm dodging. It may look like I'm dodging since I throw a curve ball back but I think I more or less answered most things?

Anyway I'm just slow to give reads because I like the reads to be grounded, so I'm careful about what I say. I also think that most posts in a mafia game are a bit useless because I get my reads from 2 or 3 posts each person have that in my head I go "This really comes more often than town" or "This comes more often from scum".

I'm mostly looking around and waiting everyone to post enough to find meaningful posts for everyone or something

Sorry, my post was before i read your 140

I'd mostly like to hear your read of anka - or why you aren't interested in their posts given that you said you skimmed them.

I mean, i'm trying to build a profile of people around me because i literally haven't played with anyone in this plist, i just vaguely know some people from minor interactions like gif modding me or you posting stuff in that dead chat

Weird I guess, but fine

Also I called it bad purely because it was out of place.

I interpret this opinion as in everyone is currently null to you?

Correct me if i am wrong - i fail to see the need of commenting my readlist if you don't agree nor disagree with it, unless you think i made it up in which case you are currently scumleaning me - again, please tell me where i am wrong, i don't want to put words in your mouth, just voicing my thoughts

UT is scum. That's for sure.

Your readlist is horrible because you declared yourself as a king of readlists and yet you put "gif" and "powerscumming" together but I have tried very hard to drop that bias you see. So with dropping that bias, it rose to "bad."
It's also out of place because it's a first post readlist very early stage. Things like that is usually done by people who wants to be townread, and it should be concerning unless I know that they're the self-conscious type. I called it NAI because both town and scum can do it.

Is this your posting or team's?

What the fuck is this question

Let's talk more about Espresso. I see some common opinion forming on him that i don't agree with and i'd like to understand why. I'll go into detail in my next posts

Probably the towniest thing he's posted this game

Although, unsurprisingly, it's still possible to ascribe some scum motivation to this

am I being pocketed

I got my eye on you

Ok

Honestly I'm mostly fucking around atm, I don't actually believe that

VOTE: Ankamius

I really dislike the instant backtracking here

This though, this sucks.
VOTE: Espresso Pat
I feel like this is a surface level ready that scum go on. One of those classic 'hey this post looks scummy I can vote it.' Because town normally thinks a bit more about the posts in question. Like, why does scum Ank feel the need to backtrack so suddenly? It's not like Ank is a scared scum player or she needed to take back the read. No one was keeping pressure on her. I think this guy was just trying to find something to cling to.

Do you think espresso jumped opportunistically on the wagon against anka? Does this mean you think Anka's recent exchanges are NAI and this is scum!espresso trying to find scum motivation where you think there isn't any?

More specifically, why do you think Espresso has voted ankamius based on a superficial analysis whereas you don't find Ankamius reactions superficial?

I'm reasonably confident that the only possible scum on my wagon is espresso

Do you just agree with maria here or do you have your own reasons for believing espresso could be the only scum in your current wagon of {GIF, nom³, fark, espresso}?

Also sounds earnest and weird

I think EP is actually a really easy lynch and might not be scum at this point

Why do you think espresso is an easy lynch based on what happened so far? He only interacted with 2 or 3 people and is only fossed by maria and anka, with just 1 vote from maria. There's nothing pointing to him being lynchbait at this point

Or is there any meta reason i am not aware of?

Very meh post, sounds earnest again

Ah, ok this came up in pedit and I was just post the damn thing.

[davesaz]

Yep, I explicitly hard townread Farkran for every one of the posts that chenn quoted.

[davesaz]

The term for that is subtle. A lot of people misinterpret it. Assume no ulterior motive and it reads a lot easier.

[davesaz]

I am somewhat trying not to reveal the mysteries of mathematics to scum. Let it suffice to say that I would very much like to lynch whichever scum is in the nom/gif/Volpe (sp?) hood.
Yeah that's me not being able to clearly remember the 3rd persons name again.

[davesaz]

This was a vote, but let's talk.

Pedit: mathematics.

Pedit2: not sure what you mean?

[davesaz]

Why do you believe there's scum in that hood

This goes with the "mathematics" in my last post.
I'm intentionally limiting the knowledge of the math I'm using to those who already know it, which may or may not include scum but certainly is a subset of the player list as long as nobody goes flapping their gums about it.

[davesaz]

I can go more in-depth into why I think

you focus groups of people more than individuals

if you want me to

Although I think it's kinda clear why I think this

TBH I don't know why you would think I focus more on groups as scum vs. individuals as town as a general rule. I steadfastly refuse to do pre-flip associations but this has nothing to do with that.

[davesaz]

That? I said that because it's a town behavior I wanted to mimic.

[davesaz]

I just don't know if it helps scum more than town to go into this. Scum already know the actual distribution. It might help town to know the theoretical limits of the distribution but explaining it might give scum a roadmap on how to fake their way around it. I tend to err on the side of caution in these circumstances. If we know a hood, and there is scum in that hood, it's mathematically superior to lynch that scum than it is to lynch an unknown from an unknown hood. Notice the conditionals there. This principle applies only if we know the hood members, and only if one of them is scum. Any town lynch from any hood containing scum harms us badly. Mislynches are extremely bad unless scum started out insanely weak.

I would need to look back to see if I screwed up what I wrote when I said I'd like to lynch scum from that hood, or if the conditionals didn't stick.

Pedit: Oh, a shot at bragging rights. Fine, I'm not being obtuse, I really am a computer scientist / mathematician with more than 50 patents (rough equivalent to about 3 dissertations worth of stuff though I haven't bothered to get the pretty heavy degree).

[davesaz]

My scum failures happen because I don't believe what I'm posting.
The mislynches are usually because people don't think I could actually believe what I'm posting -- when I actually do.
Catch-22 unfortunately. And going along because people want me to go along, that's just not gonna happen. This isn't a persona, it's myself.

Pedit: A50, back all the way out and refresh your browser probably. Or maybe open a new tab and close the old one. You had q+'s the post at some point in the past and not turned it off, and the browser is remembering that at whatever point in the stack you're going back to.

[davesaz]

Gammagoey is messing with my mind because Gamma Emerald is on my team, so I'm like no you can't be in this thread -- oh, umm...

[davesaz]

As for 834, the post you are referencing (by dave) is totally NAI. It could easily have come from Scum!him trying to sling mud at Town!FL all the same. Like, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. He is NOT making stances, but is rather using pointers and testing the waters to see where he should be pushing.

Null pointer reference? I don't find an 834 in my iso.

[davesaz]

A50 see the first section of 1092.

[davesaz]

Dave are you up for some nomnomnomonom chewing?

That's where instinct tells me to go. I had a vote queued up but decided to get into the conversation on the difference between
"there is scum in this group we should lynch it" and
"

if

there is scum in this group we should lynch it [

first

]".

When I first proposed making this the priority I hadn't reviewed things to find out if the instinct that leads toward nomnom is right, or if gif needs a deeper look. Obviously I still haven't done that because I've been doing other things.
So put me down for a probably unless something leads me in another direction.

[davesaz]

Which "those posts" are you referring to?

[davesaz]

I'm not sure what he would be trying to accomplish in thread with those posts as town.

Have a discussion with people to find out if they really believe the things they are posting, if there is a misunderstanding, and if they are swayed by clearing up misunderstandings. The result of that discussion

should

be better reads on both sides of the discussion.

If your question is more along the lines of why these posts and not others, it's largely because I'm interrupt driven in the sense that the first thing I look for is things that require my attention.

Pedit: the post you quote is driven by the sudden interest in why I wanted to find scum (if any) in the outed hood.
I don't

think

I'm doing anything different this game from any other -- see something, ask about it, evaluate the answer. Or comment on it and evaluate the reactions. I'm commenting more frequently during catchups, is that it?

[davesaz]

There are at least 1 and as many as 3 hoods that scum don't know the makeup. A lynch in one of those hoods increases scum's already large information advantage.

[davesaz]

I did an ISO on nomnom, and evidently some stuff flew by that I missed the first time around.
I'm thinking townlean there now. The dismay seems genuine.
That means I need to re-read GiF and Volpe.
It's still an "if" there is scum in that hood situation.

Pedit: I believe I said that I had noticed DEB's absence. I haven't given a readslist...
Elements is one of the reasons I was suspicious of Volpe, I think (while at the same time not trusting FL's push).

[davesaz]

A50 town lean by attitude and posting style. Yes, that's strictly gut meta.
Kinda sad this is a game that it's literally impossible to fake 4 different PRs.

[davesaz]

Wow, 3 player names start with a v. No wonder I'm only remembering 2 of them.

[davesaz]

volxen and Elements deserve the same motivational tactics that DEB gets.
Vex Vience (sp?) seems townish in approach.
Yeah, I'm taking a quick peek at some easy targets, kinda as a way to take a breather before tackling actually reading GiF.

[davesaz]

Not possible to have a read on DEB, Volxen, Elements. Not enough material. If someone actually TR's them it's a yellow flag. Vex Vience gets over the bar by having multiple posts with obvious sorting, but just barely.

[davesaz]

Hi Ank, I'm gonna go read GiF. Any thoughts there?

[davesaz]

You already messed up when you didn't have me in town.

In your recent posts I need to remind myself you're GiF and not actually RC.

Is there a reason why this is relevant?

I feel that we as a game need to get over this.

A lot of people have never seen me play the game seriously before, so they are keep thinking that RC is proxying my play.
Everything has been 100% me though.

At this point (which is iso#43 btw) there have been at most 2 posts that are game relevant. Out of 43 (or is it 44 -- is the forum 0 based or 1 based for iso's?)
Not serious play, in truth. Plenty of posts but not serious posts.
Several posts have been dedicated to discounting the idea of using flavor at all, or of being able to use hoods to scumhunt.
I'm actually getting a scum vibe off this now that I'm reading it as a unit and not letting my eyes bounce off the meaningless posts.
I think I'm about half way there, so I'll post this observation, see what comes up in pedit, and go on.

[davesaz]

This is a legendary pagetop. It bristles with spikes of sarcasm and is encrusted with finely worked truth. <I can't do Dwarf Fortress parody justice, but points for trying maybe?>

[davesaz]

I'm gonna say the part past the post I referenced above has more game content than the earlier part. I see something that needs a considerable amount of extra thought.

[davesaz]

I like 1177.

@GiF -- current reads on nom & Volpe? Also what were your reads on them before FL's push?

[davesaz]

Nope, not making anything up.

[davesaz]

Are you trying to tell me I didn't just ISO 6 players and post my thoughts on them?

[davesaz]

I also have a background in math.

Thanks for sharing. For the record I don't mean to downplay that.

I think presenting what you're saying as "math" is incredibly disingenuous since yes, it is technically math, but it doesn't require a whole lot of expertise to know that if you know there's scum in a hood you lynch there, etc.

That isn't the same thing that I'm talking about. Maybe I'm wrong and more things are obvious than I think, but I'm thinking about a completely different angle that comes from knowing the hoods, and especially the clean ones.

What ended up happening when you said "math" was you ended up scaring people into submission and cutting off real discussion around your slot, whether this was your intent or not. I think a lot of people are scared to challenge "math" and I think you shutting down discussion like this is incredibly scummy.

If scum don't know the one specific thing I'm worried about, then yes I don't want it discussed. But I think you're attributing too much to my ability to stop other people from talking. I was saying that I believe X and I'm not going to give more details on why.

I don't believe that scum can coast off of neighborhood distribution or whatever and I really don't believe you think this either.

I'm fairly certain that there is something they could exploit. Coast is not the right word. It should be obvious enough that they need to gain control of the abilities. We'll need to see an actual flip before we'll know how much real danger there is.

This exchange is all about you latching on to what I said and thinking it meant something special that I'd like to lynch the scum within a set of people (if there is one in that set). It's so clearly obviously the right thing to do that I'm really taken aback by the vehemence of your reaction to it.

BTW what's the scum motivation for me doing any of this? I can totally get how you don't like it. But I fail to see how you can in any way think scum would do it.

[davesaz]

Last team mafia, my team kept telling me to post things for them. So happy it isn't happening this time.
I like 1217.

[davesaz]

If you're trying to iso read Ank, it's going to be very hard to understand the meaning.
A good chunk of that is responding to things in the thread and it makes much more sense in context than it does standalone.

[davesaz]

I think we should really focus on people who aren't brazenly scummy but more feel like they're playing from the sidelines

Dave and Elements are the poster kids of this

Putting me in that category is utter bullshit.

[davesaz]

@GiF -- current reads on nom & Volpe? Also what were your reads on them before FL's push?

Disappointed there wasn't a response to this. It's an important piece of data to understand something else that GiF posted.

[davesaz]

Also I really think we should look more into GiF because he also feels like he's avoiding playing the game

Without saying what you think it is, do you have any idea what I'm referring to, that GiF posted and that his reads are relevant to?

[davesaz]

Nom just scumslipped about his hood, plain and simple.

Can you explain what this scumslip is? I don't think I've seen anything that I would normally put under that definition. I'd like to clear up whether it's a terminology thing, and look at whatever it is in any case.

[davesaz]

Also I really think we should look more into GiF because he also feels like he's avoiding playing the game

Without saying what you think it is, do you have any idea what I'm referring to, that GiF posted and that his reads are relevant to?

Wanna actually reply instead of continuing to shade?

[davesaz]

Sorry, I don't think the "new post" thing is pointing to the right place all the time. It's jumping me to a later point in the thread and skipping over stuff.

[davesaz]

Hmmm I think that if nomnom was scum together with Elems, he would have voted nomnom before for bus points?

I think it's slightly unlikely that Elems is partners with nomnom to be fair.

Is this looking at scum teams D1 thing normal for you? I find it to be pretty useless this early in the game, when it's easy to get false relationships into your head and then carry them forward.

[davesaz]

C'mon, you gotta give Guy something to sink his teeth into.

[davesaz]

@GiF -- current reads on nom & Volpe? Also what were your reads on them before FL's push?

Disappointed there wasn't a response to this. It's an important piece of data to understand something else that GiF posted.

Must've missed it.
Volpe is still hard town for me and that is unlikely to change sans a hard guilty.
Nom I was very confident but I'm not as much anymore. It should be kinda obvious though because y'all saw how I post when I bream with confidence. So I'm basically putting him on a watch mode.
Also I am not really dodging the game per se. Just super tired rl to invest my energy here atm and I have spring semester starting tomorrow.
I guess I should just put myself on V/LA for few days.
I'll still be reading though.

So most importantly for this question, they were both town reads early on.

[davesaz]

Volpe, what was your

first

not null read on GiF and nom? Not your reads now, but the first thing you thought of that wasn't null.

[davesaz]

Volpe, what was your

first

not null read on GiF and nom? Not your reads now, but the first thing you thought of that wasn't null.

I explicitly said to GiF that my town read on him is solely because of what we talked in the hood.

Nomnom was when she voted me and began to hysterically one-sided bash me

I'm really not sure why the fuck you're apparently looking at me yet to be fair because like, I think currently there's more interesting slots and I'm being very readable as at the present for you to go after things like this.

Dude I need your reads on them to read something else.
So you were tr gif in the hood.

[davesaz]

nom, you're here. In your hood everyone was TRing each other before FL's thing yes?

[davesaz]

Volpe, what was your

first

not null read on GiF and nom? Not your reads now, but the first thing you thought of that wasn't null.

I explicitly said to GiF that my

town read on him

is solely because of what we talked in the hood.

Nomnom was when

she voted me and began to hysterically one-sided bash me

I'm really not sure why the fuck you're apparently looking at me yet to be fair because like, I think currently there's more interesting slots and I'm being very readable as at the present for you to go after things like this.

These things don't go together then.
I kinda wanted to know what the

read

was, like explicitly stated.

The reason I ask since y'all are just dense as fuck is.
If GIF had a town read on both of you.
Why did he care in the slightest which of you three got an inherently scum sided ability which just can't be used by town in this type of game at all?

[davesaz]

Also it's not "RC want the commute."

I

want the commute. RC's name was my negotiation tool, until I just quoted your post that was basically a borderline scumclaim having been in Baton Pass and showed it to him. He can't even see this hood right now, in fact.

I

also do better at late game read wise.

I

am capable of having good reads in general. So kindly fuck off with assuming that I'm just an empty shell waiting for the reads to be fed. My team was formed with a goal that RC doesn't have to micromanage every games that his team is in.

And now, for the real talk.
Again, since I haven't said that my teammates are relaying any messages, this is 100% me.

Your read accuracy isn't an issue. It's all about aggro. And RC's name draws maximum aggro. His name draws more aggro than yours. I'm not saying this to belittle you at all. This is just hard fact. Like just look at the fucking game thread with people trying to relate RC to my slot even though he had zero influence in this game up to that one message in this hood. Our team draws one of the most aggro in this game by the team composition alone. Like RC said, there is basically zero chance that you'll be nightkilled first over me.

I have ego too, even though I don't show it too often. I want to say that I'm a fucking god tier player that draws maximum aggro. But that's not the case here. My name simply just doesn't carry enough aggro. That's why I use RC's name and NSG's name as a negotiation tool. And you fucking shows up, blatantly scumclaim by going "oh commute me instead" just like what happened with the Baton Pass, and discredit me by making me look like an empty shell that can't function by myself. I ain't having none of that shit.

commute
is
scum
sided

does
anyone
read?

[davesaz]

VOTE: GIF

[davesaz]

NGL, being completely ignored after working my ass off to check a bunch of stuff is *fun* in a dwarf fortress kind of way.

[davesaz]

@kuribo I never thought about it that way but I see your point. I don't think jumping you for it is right, but I also don't think that it's AI.

[davesaz]

To be fair, commuting is a scummy ability, idk why that was pushed like it wasn’t. Especially when you have to negotiate within neighborhoods. I don’t think that’s the best way to look at the neighborhood powers, but yeah.

An Investigative neighborhood is probably the most likely to have scum in them if we’re going on that accord.

I doubt commute is a hood that doesn’t have scum. But yeah there are plenty of possible roles where the game swings on which alignment gets control.

[davesaz]

Sadly the best way to preserve the health of the game thread is to not talk about the game and endlessly post fluff

The way to preserve the health of the game is to sheep the guy who's trying to solve it.

[davesaz]

Second of all, it's pretty much a bulletproof. With that in mind, if you think for a good few seconds, you will realize.

It makes scum ascetic. It also makes scum and SK bulletproof to each other. Enough said.

[davesaz]

Tell me when it's over.

[davesaz]

The game isn't going to end until one of you top this.

Someone nom that when the game is over and the new noms thread is open.

[davesaz]

1. Is the wagon on elements really relevant? @GIF, @daves

What do you mean by relevant? Elements does not seem markedly different to me tone or content wise from any previous game I remember. I don't remember if I have seen scum!Elements before. I find other people's reads far more important than what he's done. I don't think it's a useful wagon unless there isn't anything better.

2. Do we still believe nom is scum? @volpe, @daves

I'd say nom is one of my least confident reads, and it's back to a really don't know. I need to see more posting about people not attacking her. Or perhaps filter what I am seeing to ignore that part.

3. What do we make of FL and Anka? Are they worth wagoning? @volpe, GIF, daves

I think Anka seems town. I try not to succumb to agreement bias but I just don't see anything scummy there.
FL is always worth consideration as possible scum. I doubt a wagon there would be useful though.

@A50: Do you (or your team) think we're off somewhere? Because I don't like the "consult your teams" thing out of the blue.

[davesaz]

Congrats Volpe, you found it

Huh?

[davesaz]

I on the other hand think the arguments are pretty good.

[davesaz]

I guess we're not reading the same posts then

Generic statements are easy to make. Point to something that's bad and explain why. Extra credit if you're not involved in the post.

[davesaz]

Hmm, Farkran and I do disagree on something that isn't nom. I don't get the Ank push.

[davesaz]

I understand chenn’s Post and see why those things are interpreted that way but they are the type of things I’d townread that player for. So far anyway the game is young.

Might agree with scumreading others for that

.

What does this even mean?

This bolded sentence? You do poorly in English? It means that I strongly disagreed with that specific post from chenn because whatever chenn was scumreading someone for was something that I think that individual would do as town. Other people posting the same thing might be scummy. It's just as clear as what I wrote. Two people post the same thing, one person it would be scummy another person it wouldn't be.

That’s what I thought, so I just don’t understand why you didn’t expand on this further. Like, I see you asking questions but where’s the follow up? Your thoughts lead one way but I don’t see more to that.

Of course it's generic. Sometimes it helps to be subtle.
"Hey dude did you just chainsaw that guy?" isn't going to get the same kind of answer.

Okay you know what fair enough. I can agree with this. That wasn’t really the impression I was getting at first but, it makes sense.

I suspect FL pretty strongly tbh.

Alright, let’s talk about this then because us going on and off on each other with a debate on a read will probably get nowhere and I’m not gonna be Vope/FL 2.0. FL is someone I don’t have a confident read on right now and since you’re a SR of mine I’d love to hear more about this coming from you.

Huh, that wasn't nearly as awful as I expected going into this

I believe there has been followup discussion related to the first item, not so much about the content I was commenting on but more about the way I made the comment. It may have even been with chenn? In any case the original post was about Farkran (I think??), and I think I still disagree with chenn (and nom) in that the things they're bashing Farkran for are style not alignment.

Another piece of info may help. I play on multiple devices, and notes to myself are how I remember to look back at it. That post served the 2nd purpose of saying "chenn did something important a little before this point" so I can find it again later.

On FL, I don't think I've ever not suspected him. On the rare occasions where I start to write stuff off, he turns out to be scum. The latest development is that he outed his hood with basically no prompting only to say he TRs both of the others, which raises the obvious question what possible town motivation could there be for that?

[davesaz]

Why is ank town?

My comment is more about the type of push and less about having a strong read on Ank.
I don't see anything inherently scummy, and the tone gives a town vibe. It's very weak.
She has enough awareness of the gamestate to show that she's reading, and she's open about it giving her problems.
She's trying to have some conversations. They aren't going very far but I'm not sure about the effect of availability.

The layers in her read list shows that she is differentiating by more than post count. Some of the higher count players are nulltown or null. Putting a high post count player at flat null is a lot more honest IMO than it is to say they have to be either scum or town.

I do agree that having mostly low PC players at the very bottom of the list is a bit suspicious.

[davesaz]

Hmm I had thought about a good idea of what to do

What was that multiquote with no comment about?

[davesaz]

I absolutely agree with how Maria views dave

Do tell, how does Maria view me?

[davesaz]

That was quite unhelpful. Maybe if you use your own words?

[davesaz]

Chen you gonna put that in your own words?

[davesaz]

Can you chill on how scum win unless it’s useful for this game?

[davesaz]

Dave your inability to do or talk about anything that doesn't explicitly serve your agenda really pings me here.

Given my agenda is a town win, that's really bad of you.

[davesaz]

Explain how your md discussion solves the game.

[davesaz]

Look Chenn, after i nearly blew a stroke during last team mafia I’ve tried to be more cool, but you’re really getting on my nerves here.
I’m playing this game exactly like I do every game. Ask questions when I’m not sure, point out stuff that’s obvious like gif and fl around their hoods etc, try to get people to not talk about shit that helps scummore than town. You’re really starting to piss me off. There is no possible way you can think that I’m scum here. Did your team put you up to it or something? Press Dave and see if he cracks? My wife is gonna be really upset if I end up drooling or something over this game.

I’ll take another look after the troop meeting. The kids deserve an assistant scoutmaster who isn’t grumpy.

[davesaz]

I lied, kinda. Too hard to not look.

This is no laughing matter. Near the end of the 1st page and a good chunk of the 2nd. There's a smattering of other blowups in dates +/- a couple months of that spot.
viewtopic.php?f=127&t=74682&user_select%5B%5D=24574

[davesaz]

If you're town I've been tunneling you since page 15. Do you really never consider me to be scum this game? Because I've never seen you seriously push or consider it. In fact I don't think you've given a lot of thought to my alignment at all for the entire game.

No, you haven't been "tunneling" me. You have interacted with most of the playerlist. A tunnel is when you focus on just one person, or mostly so.
I strong town read the way you've done it. There is always room for me to be wrong of course, nobody is confirmed yet.
I make a huge distinction between wrong and scum. I do sometimes incorrectly read agreement as town, but I never read disagreement as scum by itself.
Well, try to never do that. I suppose I probably make mistakes.

My approach to townreads who scumread me is to attempt to bring them to the light with reason. Or at least that's how I'm trying to do it now that I'm trying to chill.
Your resistance is actually a towntell. Scum would give up way easier than this and just NK me instead.
I don't want you to give up, I want you to discover the error of your ways.

[davesaz]

EP is partly right on hoods, maybe even mostly right.
Gammagooey is right that basing reads mostly on hoods is bad, and reading people on their posting is good.
Not using hoods at all is flat wrong though. I don't consider that to be major at this point because it isn't yet telling us to ignore something important.
I don't consider wrong to be scummy per se. It depends on what you do with the wrong.

[davesaz]

dave do you have any spicy reads for me?

I have reads, doubt you will think them spicy.
Need to read what has happened since this point first.

[davesaz]

So that burst of posts from A50 was it? I'm disappointed.

[davesaz]

Ankamius - has felt like town but it's mostly gut and I'm susceptible to "agreement bias"
Dr Easy Bake - insufficient data, null. Though I wonder if that really ought to be scum, as he's really bubbly when town though also tends to be quite aimless
Flavor Leaf - feels town compared to both the recent game we were both scum, and the one he slid by under the radar in as Rick Dalton. But I'm never sure and there have been some things that seemed a little scummy.
davesaz - I'm town
chennisden - Town, as I stated in the thread yesterday and in my hood
Vex Vience - People talk like there is enough here for a read, but I'd need to review it to be able to remember any of it.
Volxen - Ditto, 2nd V in this game that I don't remember enough about
MariaR - Push felt much lazier than Chenn. Weak scum based on that along with a vague similarity in tone to other scum games. TBH I think I always read her as scum though so...
Gammagooey - Feels genuine, weak TR
DeasVail - Someone I wish I had a better meta feel for. I'm not sure I trust those reads, and I wonder if being passive is a scumtell
kuribo - Feels genuine, I have no meta awareness that I can remember, weaker TR than Gammagooey
GuyInFreezer - I sorta misunderstood the original hood-related posting, thinking the commuter was an action the hood gets to keep. Gonna have to punt on this one, I just don't know
Volpe14 - I thought the reaction to being wagoned seemed townish unless he's very experienced.
EspressoPatronum - Somewhat correct, but correct doesn't necessarily mean town. Have to say pretty null, but town side of that
Almost50 - Feels extremely town compared to the recent game we were both scum in. In that game I didn't have to know he was scum, it was self-evident from the posting. However this is in his scumrange so keepign my eye on him.
nomnomnom - I don't have a large meta record here. The what she's trying to do seems clear most of the time, but the why not so much. Weak scum tainted by disagreement bias?

[davesaz]

why exactly is it optimal to lynch within the commuter hood again?

When I thought the commute was for themselves, I thought it was more useful to scum to duck an invest than it would be to town to duck a NK.
Not sure if others were following along with that or if they had their own reasons.

[davesaz]

Oh cool, Dunn has

Serious mistake listening to Dunn on pretty much anything.

[davesaz]

Can we skip all the self promotion videos? They really don't help town in any way.

[davesaz]

Does town REALLY say "I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?"

I don't know who you're talking to here, but if I think the person scumreading me is town that's exactly what I try to do.

[davesaz]

You keep telling me that outing hood membership (AGAIN: not flavour, power, or survivor) is bad, but you have yet to point to a convincing reason why.

Mathematics.

Specifically, suppose there are 6 town that need to be killed to get rid of 2 all-town hoods worth of powers. A,B,C and D,E,F
If scum kill A,B,D,E then C gets 2 nights of last standing and F gets 1 night.
If scum kill A,B,C,... then C gets only 1 night of last standing. It is clearly better for scum to know this split.
It's especially bad if there are scum and a SK, and they double hit on the 2nd night because then there is no last standing night at all.

When you run through various sequences of lynches/kills/night actions, those all-town hoods get more done when they are not outed.

[davesaz]

Pedit: this is about EP's percentages question
I have not bothered to actually work through probabilities. It's one of those things where qualitatively you know it, so the quantitative isn't needed. It's a little like getting a pocket pair and knowing you raise, but the amount to raise kinda depends on who is at the table and how they bet.

This is about the scum strategy of killing in mixed hoods
Killing in a mixed hood is a gamble as well. If the remaining town correctly interprets the situation and 1v1's scum might get lynched, and activate a last standing.

Pedit @nomnom: It's also kinda interesting that this is the same conversation that was partially the origin of scumreading me. You may or may not remember that I came out strongly against prematurely outing things yesterday.

Also came to me during the conversation:
In a 1t2s hood if scum use the ability unwisely in a way the town can detect, it's at least one guilty. So strategy is non-obvious even in the stacked scum hood.

[davesaz]

There are some people that you could argue as being on the sidelines (such as Gamma and Kuribo), that I think are more likely town.

In a lot of ways I do feel like A50 is an active linesman. And Espresso a less active linesman.

I forgot to ask what linesman means in this post.

[davesaz]

Catching up from bottom of 105.
Leaving to take my daughter to the airport before 5am yesterday really messed me up sleep wise, and I did some non-MS things to clear my head.

[davesaz]

While doing some scummy judging I came across this game that may provide some meta insight on me relative to some things that have come up here.

[davesaz]

Hmm, I'm both relieved that it's not a ton more pages since I popped in yesterday, and hard to get motivated to read what happened between page 105 and now.
Any specific requests for me that I have missed? Things I should take a close look at?

[davesaz]

There are some people that you could argue as being on the sidelines (such as Gamma and Kuribo), that I think are more likely town.

In a lot of ways I do feel like A50 is an active linesman. And Espresso a less active linesman.

I forgot to ask what linesman means in this post.

Like soccer referees that are on the sidelines

So taking this up again, you think they are staying out of the action but you think they're town despite that?

[davesaz]

In a 1t2s hood if scum use the ability unwisely in a way the town can detect, it's at least one guilty. So strategy is non-obvious even in the stacked scum hood.

What if they killed their Town Neighbor on N1??

There will be a point where hood knowledge comes out and we connect the dots, so even this isn't a foolproof strategy.

[davesaz]

Thanks, now I don't need to ask for a VC.
Plenty of days left, that's good.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Volxen
There are other players who fit my favorite diagnosis of "not scumhunting" but this seems to be the one we're most likely to lynch.

[davesaz]

I don't feel that way at all.

[davesaz]

There's the FL I've come to expect.

[davesaz]

I would not have guessed that Creature wasn't in a team. Had not paid enough attention to it though.
I sure hope we don't get one of the 40 posts in a row catchups.

[davesaz]

It would probably be good for Chennis to watch things develop a bit.

[davesaz]

FL what are the colors in your lists (that you said you wouldn't color)?

[davesaz]

I understand what I misread, you were saying you wouldn't color yourself.

[davesaz]

Does anyone know why Chennisden could not be targeted either night?

[davesaz]

dave I thought would post more and be better late d2 & today but hasn't yet and his post about volxen (and other people) isn't scumhunting feels weird when he isn't voting or doing much himself

I need an answer to my question.

[davesaz]

In the meantime
VOTE: Dr Easy Bake

[davesaz]

Clarification on 3597, it was a general question.

[davesaz]

Does anyone know why Chenn could not be targeted n1 and n2.

[davesaz]

Does anyone know why Chennisden could not be targeted either night?

I hope I didn't miss something, but are you saying you/your hood tried to target chenn 2 nights in a row and your action failed?? (If that's the case, then we should ask nom/DB for who they Commuted on both nights)

Yes. I think that hood is nom and fb who both presumably saw this and reacted not.

Chenn hasn’t admitted being ascetic. If it’s scum interference they are lucky to an absurd degree or my hoodmate is scum. But I don’t want to light a bonfire if it’s town interference.

[davesaz]

Everyone has posted, and I'm reasonably certain they all posted after my info request.
It's probably scum in my hood. I hope there is a doc.
VOTE: DeasVail

[davesaz]

Anyway, there you go, dave.

@Panth: Could you please answer why dave? Who in your hood suggested dave first? Where there any other candidates on the table to choose from?

If it's Maria I would not be surprised since she pretty much always scumreads me for stupid reasons. It's so NAI for her that I stopped paying attention to it.
If someone in that hood is scum with the other person in my hood then there you go. A perfectly reasonable looking action given her bias against me, that's probably among the most anti-town actions the game has.

[davesaz]

If DV is scum then the scumteam already knows this, and if not then they'll think it's investigative given the discussion.
The really unfortunate part is that it's not an investigative, it's an inventor that gives things with investigative powers.
So you've fucked town out of N2 and N3 attempts, and we now have to try to give the invention N3 to act on N4 and not have any potential result until D5.

In case anyone gives a shit, I play PR's of this type as scummy as I can without getting lynched, so that I don't end up scum target number one.
I finally get it right and nobody forces me to over crumb/soft to the point that scum guesses it anyway, and one of my arch nemesis decides to yolo RB anyway.
That's just great. Thanks a lot.

[davesaz]

That's part of the math I was holding off on talking about. (pedit this was about the Eddie Cane comment I think)
Every hood with scum starts out like 3p lylo.
Every hood with a dead townie is a potential immediate 1v1. If both remaining members are town then worst case you get a LMS in the hands of town.

Me not dying could mean DV is town and this has just been extreme bad luck / bad aim in the RB hood's targeting systems.
In that case getting things out there is a chance to at least salvage things with a little game of follow the cop.

If the commuter hood commutes an entire hood, then that's bad news since it would be tantamount to a RB. If it's an individual (and it doesn't prevent hood voting) I could use a favor. Or perhaps a doc if available.

Pedit @Maria
I should clarify a bit. I don't mean I try to appear scummy, it's more like I have info that I'm not going to share and being careful is interpreted as scummy which is kinda what I want. I challenge anyone to point to something specific I have posted and state a clear scum motivation for it. You should update your meta on me to expect this kind of thing and we'll get along much better.

[davesaz]

Did you get anything out of DEB being devoted?
Wait, that reads wrong.
De-voted?
Hopefully I'm remembering right who it was.

[davesaz]

Hey another accidental pagetop.

[davesaz]

Did you think Farkran was scum?

[davesaz]

That mentality of being able to prove yourself later seems odd to me.
I don't know how to extract an alignment out of it. It's just the type of weirdness that catches my eye.

[davesaz]

That was an ank reply. I guess I should quote more.

[davesaz]

I don't have any problem with you Dave. I just didn't like the victim post where you act like I fucked everything up when you openly know I've scumread you this whole game basically. The only reason I'm not focusing on you is I know I can't get you lynched right now. It doesn't help you've just waved me off saying I'd do this as town or scum. That gives me nothing to work with either so I don't really know what you're expecting from me

I'm not expecting anything other than perhaps you remember how I play as town so you can recognize it better.

In terms of the "waving you off" comment I honestly don't know how to read you in this game, and I owe it to town to be as accurate as possible in my reads so in the unlikely event anyone pays attention to them when I'm gone they will be accurate.

As for saying it's a victim post, no that's a mischaracterization. I'm calling a play there and expecting it to be followed.

[davesaz]

Dr Easy Bake (6): Gammagooey, Almost50, chennisden, Flavor Leaf, Ankamius, MariaR

I think this wagon has very good odds of being all town

Including the target?

[davesaz]

If I'm not off the table yet then I'm gonna stop reading this game for a few hours to keep the blood pressure down.

[davesaz]

Nom has been pressured/a wagon suggestion for most of the game yeah.
pedit: FL I'm gonna grab my taser

I don’t like how anytime Nomnom starts to see me getting pushed a bit, she immediately moves from on my side to stabbing me in the back. This has happened 4 times only for her to drop it right after and go somewhere else like it never happened.

It feels forced.

And I believe I’m actually pretty good at reading Nomnom.

That would actually be bus indicative. Not a very strong indicator but it's what I think when seeing it.
I don't see scum!FL bringing this up though.

[davesaz]

No but like a wagon wagon, or like a nonstarter wagon?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh compared to the rest of the playerlist I'd say a wagon wagon. They were the counter wagon to the survivor lynch and were srsly talked about day 1 before the mod kill.

That survivor wagon was well-deserved.

Imma paraphrase DGB: That survivor wagon was a lynch on scum. It just happens they didn't FLIP scum.

That wagon was about the only thing my team had directly commented on and IIRC we all thought it was likely to flip scum.

[davesaz]

How about, and I know this is a really insane idea.

We focus on who's been scummy instead of getting blinded by who gets x power and who's in what hood.

You can do both!

The power / hood / mechanics stuff is double edged. Do it too much in this game and you'll get a witch hunt that wipes out an all town hood and all it's abilities with it. Do it right and combine it with the behavior / voting patterns and it can reveal the manipulations we almost have to assume are going on at some level.

[davesaz]

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

It shouldn't be too hard to guess that the one who brought it up in the first place because they were outraged that the invest has been denied is town.
At least someone is paying attention.

[davesaz]

Dave, I’m interested in why you haven’t used our hood to try and form your read on me. I still think you’re probably town but I’d like to hear from you about it.

Several things -- first and foremost I tend to not use hoods anyway because my attention gets drawn to the threads with updates and I'm not a big chatter by nature. Mason partners complain about this even. Second, with Farkran dead and me town, and given the hood ability, it was high probability you're scum. I was frankly surprised to not be NK'd because you'd get the LMS ability for at least a night before the town could catch on. If I let on in the main thread or the hood that I was on to it, that NK chance gets bigger. One night failure is easy to explain, both nights is quite a lot harder. Plus I held off when we didn't get the N2 shot refunded right away today -- I only started asking what stopped it after the refund came in. Third, I've had some very bad experiences with hoods. IIRC I was in an elemental game (that RC modded?) where someone in my hood used information to prevent my ability from being used and then backstabbed me in the main thread.

[davesaz]

It would probably be good for Chennis to watch things develop a bit.

Result crumb in first post d3 btw. When we thought the action had worked.

[davesaz]

JOAT.

[davesaz]

At the bottom of 167. I might be wrong on my chenn read, and if so then I'm also wrong about DV. Doesn't make me any less salty about the blocks.

[davesaz]

That being said, I don't really have a real reason why, but I don't like him hoping for a doc in 3892. I usually think that verbally hoping for a doctor or some kind of protection is scum trying to seem town.

Nah, I see town request doc all the time, and I've done it myself before as town too. But I'm glad to see you're posting actual inquisitive stuff. Or at least stuff that looks inquisitive.

[davesaz]

I'm not sure about FB. I think it's important that the serious posting came after the wagon. I'm at work trying to follow a meeting right now so that's all for now.

[davesaz]

Whoa that's been a lot of woe.

[davesaz]

Oh hey, 8 pages to read. Bottom of 187.

[davesaz]

First of all we don’t even know what kind of invest it is, or who they gave it to.

Incorrect, you know we tried to give it to Chenn.

[davesaz]

You have classic “scum caught for what they think are the wrong reasons”

This is about Maria right? Yes, I get that reading her posts on these pages.

[davesaz]

fucking wild that I call out FL and he suddenly is all over the thread calling the game PoEd out when he hasn't done anything all day

I haven't been engaged enough to know if this is true. It's interesting if it is, though I also know from <redacted> that being "absent" for FL is RL indicative right now.

[davesaz]

[...]It's annoying, because one of you are probably town cause 2 scum in a doctor hood makes no sense. I want to find who that is but when neither of you are giving me much to work with it's kinda hard.

ANY scum in the doctor hood makes no sense. Our LMS is also terrible for scum.

It's honestly one of the only hoods in this game in which having scum in it breaks the role.

It bears mention that ensuring roles / LMS are

not

used is one of the potential functions for scum to be in a hood to begin with.

[davesaz]

Bottom of 190 -- ah, so some of these pages are FL arguing about how good he is. Skim mode it is...

[davesaz]

I figured anyone from the inventor hood after night 1 would've said 'hey guys don't block our hood' (because they're told when it fails/roleblocked) I assumed since no one from the inventor hood said anything it was perfectly safe to block them again.

One time could just be an accident, and lacking knowledge of what interfered in the role it was better to stay hidden than it was to move the massclaim a day earlier.

[davesaz]

I'm giving you enough credit to assume you would know that blocking the same hood twice in a row is a bad idea. The first block on the inventor hood could be coincidence. The second was intentional.

I brought it up night 1
I was not the one who made the suggestion to do the same night 2. However, I was fine with it considering you know. I figured anyone from the inventor hood after night 1 would've said 'hey guys don't block our hood' (because they're told when it fails/roleblocked) I assumed since no one from the inventor hood said anything it was perfectly safe to block them again.

So let me get this straight.

You repeatedly criticized my post of outing hoods *distribution* (again, not powers) because you thought it was bad and gave too much information.

And you are now blaming the inventor hood for not full outing on D2 because their action didn't work?

Wow.

Wanted to succinctly reply to the original post before also commenting on this one.
Furthermore the person who eventually did out the information argued against distribution information right from the start. Remember that big discussion I had d1 on this topic? I'd be interested to know which side Maria was on d1, or if a position was even stated.

[davesaz]

No, I'm saying Dave, the person we blocked. Or someone from the hood could've been like 'hey don't block us' and that would've stopped the n2 block that I once again didn't suggest. They didn't say anything so in my mind that was a safe block. I know in my mind if I was an invest hood and we got blocked I'd out that right away. Now that your point has been disproven you're going down yet another path? Alright.

You're suggesting the guy who argued quite forcefully D1 against outing

any

hood information would bring this up d2?
No, when you have an important role you keep your mouth shut as long as possible.
Now you might want to ask yourself why DV didn't mention it either, and hasn't really said much about it other than to ask why I didn't bring it up in the neighborhood instead of main thread...

[davesaz]

Heh, didn't expect that much of a multipost.
Wagons are still hella fragmented for there only being 3 days on the clock. What's up with that?

[davesaz]

Right, but I don't remember when she started having that opinion.

[davesaz]

I think rc doesn't want to get blamed or shouted down for having bad reads in this game >.<

This sounds vaguely fake.

[davesaz]

I think rc doesn't want to get blamed or shouted down for having bad reads in this game >.<

This sounds vaguely fake.

Idek how that could sound fake

RC "not wanting to get blamed" sounds fake to me. I don't think I have ever seen him duck from a read before. In fact his unrealistic degree of confidence is one of the things that bothers me the most when we play together. I don't know how to process this in terms of alignment, especially since it isn't his game to begin with, but it seems weird.

[davesaz]

I think rc doesn't want to get blamed or shouted down for having bad reads in this game >.<

This sounds vaguely fake.

Idek how that could sound fake

RC "not wanting to get blamed" sounds fake to me. I don't think I have ever seen him duck from a read before. In fact his unrealistic degree of confidence is one of the things that bothers me the most when we play together. I don't know how to process this in terms of alignment, especially since it isn't his game to begin with, but it seems weird.

U might want to reread.

I said “I THINK” and then said what I think RC is thinking.

Yeah, but I'd think that you'd know RC well enough...

[davesaz]

Crappy thing is, lynching EP or Myself confirms the other as town.

How does it confirm?

[davesaz]

@dave - did you get any information with your JOAT tonight? You'll have at least two more nights of safety to track/watch.

My action was not blocked. Nothing learned unfortunately.

[davesaz]

Who did you target and why?

Answering would likely reveal which action is still available, which is suboptimal for town.
If I used track then someone I thought was scum. If watch, town. If I didn't trust docs then commute is a possibility.

[davesaz]

Commuter hood would have switched to vengeful for last standing right?
Which variety? Hammerer, someone on wagon, or anyone?

[davesaz]

If you really rely on me to make a good shot here you've lost your mind

I mean you're not making a shot alone. You're doing it with the consensus of the town, if you are town.

lol

What was lol about this?

[davesaz]

Assuming scum caused the FB thing and it's not just a hidden mechanic...

nomnom town -> scum are in nomnom's town reads and/or scum are town read by majority
nomnom scum -> she probably shoots me to get rid of the watch/track sooner

nomnom & FB both scum -> wifom us into thinking FB is town because "they can't possibly both be scum"

[davesaz]

Just give your own reads. Digging in your heels is not going to convince anyone, I know this from painful experience.

[davesaz]

You alleged that panth isn't giving reads. Do you think that's scum? If others review it, will they find the allegation to be true?

[davesaz]

It should also be pretty fucking obvious that I am town because no scum puts themselves in this situation ever. This is the most stupid thing since it incites people to lynch you.

If scum!you were likely to get lynched anyway, you would be put into this situation to activate the venge and take town with you. The situation doesn't make you look town.

[davesaz]

It is relevant considering I am literally conftown and that you are removing someone conftown from the game just for a shot in the dark!!!!
This is what scums want. This is why they gave me that venge shot. Use your brain pls.

pedit: not it's not playing with one less confirmed town player is bad, jsut straight up bad

you are not even remotely close to confirmed town and you're a decent enough player to know it instead of spouting this utter horseshit while refusing to actually go into details on any of your reads

you know

like scum who don't want to give town any potential advantage once they flip would do

Tell me what kind of scum makes a move that gives town an incentive to lynch them

I'll be waiting

Scum who is getting lynched anyway, and gets a vengekill out of it.
Not rocket science.

[davesaz]

Does panth have any reads yet? I vaguely remember noticing that there weren't any directly stated as such, or at least not an adequate number.

[davesaz]

Maria, scum know there is a watcher and/or tracker.
If I'm a tracker they want to know who I scumread so they can send someone else to do the kill. They have a 2/3 chance of me being wrong anyway but it's closer to 3/3 if they can predict who I'll choose.
If I'm a watcher they want to know who I townread, so they can kill elsewhere.
I'm a logical person. Giving the targeting information helps scum, full stop. Nobody else is bothered by this.
If I could be assured of living long enough, the optimum play would be to save the shots.
Maybe the game would be better off if 5-6 people wanted to lynch me, because I'd probably survive long enough to actually hit someone.

[davesaz]

I think DEB is similar here to D&D where he was cult leader.
VOTE: DEB

[davesaz]

No one

Nom said in PT she would commute ank

This has potential to be interesting.

Has anyone else abstained from their group voting?

[davesaz]

Has it really been 20 hours since anyone posted?
Has anyone else abstained from their neighborhood vote? Important info. Could explain fb.

[davesaz]

Saying and doing nothing.

[davesaz]

Has it really been 20 hours since anyone posted?
Has anyone else abstained from their neighborhood vote? Important info. Could explain fb.

I obviously did, but our hood was RB'd anyway, so I didn't//don't think you were asking me/Ank.

How about n1? Trying to see if maybe something triggers a negative effect on hoods in general without requiring an action.
If we believe the start of d2 reveal about the writers and FB's n3 ouster are scum active powers then it seems scum have individual or group powers that are lacking in town, which speaks to game design. If those events are somehow triggered without an action (individual or group) then the design balance is different.

[davesaz]

I get more angry when I know people are posting things to try to get me angry. The TM game that I linked as evidence that I get angry is an example of that very thing happening.

Pedit: chill out, really.

In game related news...
I don't keep a diary so I don't have proof of the accuracy of this but...
About 70% of the people who point out "scumslips" are scum, and the other 30% are misguided.
I have yet to see a single bonafide scumslip in all the years I've been playing.

[davesaz]

all the years I've been playing.

Which include about 10 years from before I even knew this site existed!

[davesaz]

My assumption was that dave's commute is a self commute.

@dave can you clarify?

That was my assumption but I never verified it. Sounds like a good question to ask.

[davesaz]

nomnom town -> scum are in nomnom's town reads and/or scum are town read by majority

You first heard the idea of scum!FB leaving the hood to set up nomnom's venge target from me.

[davesaz]

Would scumpuppy intentionally try to rile up kuribo? Perhaps to try to get a toxicity lynch?

[davesaz]

If FB and Ank are scum together with additional powers, Ank's power is better.

[davesaz]

What exactly are you trying to sort out?[...]

Whether FL accidentally posted in the doc hood instead of the Scum PT.

If it's the scum PT, then you and FL are scum. If it's just a miscommunication, then I'll go back on my merry way.

How do you plan to sort something like that?

[davesaz]

I said I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

This is correct.

So you're worried about the first sentence, thinking that the trailing ", Maria" means that FL was trying to talk to Maria.
It would not be unusual for FL to give a list like that using a comma instead of "or". It's linguistically imprecise but fits with someone posting who has limited time or is using shorthand because they're posting on mobile for example.

[davesaz]

BTW I can't say for sure that I noticed those posts the first time around. I may have glazed over them.