TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[chennisden]

good to be back.

today seems like a good day for you to die

VOTE: super

[chennisden]

hi auro why do you like me?

hi chennis? (i dont remember your name already and cbf backing up to see it lmao) why don't you like me?

I don't think I've ever played with you (was only on here for a year before going inactive)

I don't actively like or dislike you yet but I have a feeling that I will get a read on you soon, if you know what I mean

[chennisden]

i think we should all just end our posts with if you know what i mean, if you know what i mean.

I dont know what you mean, if you know what I mean

[chennisden]

chennisden - dunno
JohnnyFarrar - lower than average poster
Flopz - lower than average poster(as scum at least)
Auro - dunno
Lilith2013 - lower than average poster (busy irl)
Infinity 324 - average poster, can be hyperposter but rarely.
Ampharos - dunno
Super - spammer supreme
Firebringer - average??
DkKoba - depends on the PL/setup/how i wanna approach the game

If this is "how much does each player spam" put "colossal spammer" next to my name

[chennisden]

I dont get how or why yall are making an argument about townslips or what because I literally think it's an "I dont care enough to read the setup slip"

And that means nothing

[chennisden]

chennisden - dunno
JohnnyFarrar - lower than average poster
Flopz - lower than average poster(as scum at least)
Auro - dunno
Lilith2013 - lower than average poster (busy irl)
Infinity 324 - average poster, can be hyperposter but rarely.
Ampharos - dunno
Super - spammer supreme
Firebringer - average??
DkKoba - depends on the PL/setup/how i wanna approach the game

If this is "how much does each player spam" put "colossal spammer" next to my name

ur an extreme lurker tho

X

[chennisden]

chennisden - dunno
JohnnyFarrar - lower than average poster
Flopz - lower than average poster(as scum at least)
Auro - dunno
Lilith2013 - lower than average poster (busy irl)
Infinity 324 - average poster, can be hyperposter but rarely.
Ampharos - dunno
Super - spammer supreme
Firebringer - average??
DkKoba - depends on the PL/setup/how i wanna approach the game

If this is "how much does each player spam" put "colossal spammer" next to my name

ur an extreme lurker tho

X

ur usuaally active for like the first game day then u disappear from face of the earth.

If you're basing this off of my activity in a couple of "recent" large themes then you should know there was a really good reason a lot of people disappeared off the face of the earth.

there's also a reason i'm playing in this game. because i want it over with before I burn out

thats good.

did u know black flag is a bad setup?

themoreyouknow

Did you know playing is conducive to your winrate?

Themoreyouknow

Feel like scum are more likely to notice that the setup is nightless

Koba, explain the vote

I dont like the first line (but I can't say it's enough for me to say anything alignment-wise), but what I do have to say is worrying over your "townslip" for way longer than anyone cares about is not going to help

I didnt like Kobas vote on you but I also dont like this response

[chennisden]

Or to clarify, I dont like the words that accompanied Koba's vote on you - I do not feel that way about the actual vote itself

[chennisden]

Koba you aren't gonna produce much discussion if you're refusing to explain reads btw - just tell Autumn why you scumread them ffs lmao

Chennis did not like this post.

[chennisden]

VOTE: auro

[chennisden]

Gut tells me that Firebringer is town because I'm sufficiently annoyed, assuming gut memory serves me well

[chennisden]

Auro your posts feel purposeful to the point of being manipulative - I feel like you have an agenda that's too well-defined to be uninformed

[chennisden]

today seems like a good day for you to die

Was there any additional context to this @chennisden?

No

[chennisden]

Auro your posts feel purposeful to the point of being manipulative - I feel like you have an agenda that's too well-defined to be uninformed

Interesting, can you talk to me in specifics? Which posts of mine suggest I'm being manipulative?

Manipulative was probably the wrong word, agenda-driven is probably better. I guess what I'm trying to say is your posts seem to be subtly doing things.

33, 42 - trying to form a bloc

85 - justifying said bloc

106 - prematurely attempting to force someone to take the position of the opposition to said block

Also I don't know exactly why but "nobody here can read me well xD" gives me heebie jeebies

Even your jokey posts kind of feel purposeful. Maybe it's a "you" thing, I don't honestly remember after who knows how long, but by default I'd at least be suspicious of this behavior and call it out

[chennisden]

side note: as expected, we are outpacing the post rate of all other TM games

and people doubted me when I said that this game would be the largest

And this time I can't even take credit for it

[chennisden]

85 - justifying said bloc

106 - prematurely attempting to force someone to take the position of the opposition to said block

85 was a response to someone asking me to justify my position. You're saying my response justifying my position is manipulative?

106 was a general attack on DkKoba's disdain for early reads and not specific to his read on Super. And my "agenda" here is to form a bloc with Super, then force DkKoba to oppose my bloc with Super?

God and he's doing the thing where he addresses the individual points and not addressing the feeling behind it

This is what scum do

(Obviously it's difficult to address the feeling behind it but town generally respond to things like this with "wtf are you talking about")

This is exactly what I was feeling - I was trying to find a response to that but it kind of already happened for me

[chennisden]

I like Super and Autumn leaves, I think Flopz is okay, I don't know how to feel about Johnny and Koba, and I don't like Auro. I like Lilith's posts, particularly

199 - "on one hand, I feel left out; on the other, not really townreading enough to think that hypothetical bloc is all town"

because I feel the same way.

[chennisden]

Mistyx has things to say:

Townreads Super/Koba
Weirded out by how soon Amy started going all serious, but doesn't mind the entrance
Doesn't like either of Flopz/Johnny's entrances, thinks Flopz has a worse entrance

@Super: Mistyx is asking for your MU username in case they have meta or whatever.

[chennisden]

85 - justifying said bloc

106 - prematurely attempting to force someone to take the position of the opposition to said block

85 was a response to someone asking me to justify my position. You're saying my response justifying my position is manipulative?

106 was a general attack on DkKoba's disdain for early reads and not specific to his read on Super. And my "agenda" here is to form a bloc with Super, then force DkKoba to oppose my bloc with Super?

First point. Autumn said it better than me: You're not actually addressing the feeling about it. I don't want to go all English major mode, especially because I'm not an English major and nor will I ever be, but here we go:

65 (or whatever you quoted) wasn't exactly

challenging

in nature. It was

inquisitive

. You felt like you were overexplaining things from the onset of the game: trying to "cover your bases" in a way that nobody will question you. I don't think you're justifying yourself. You feel like you're

shutting down opposition

, and not in a way that town would do it as a byproduct of covering for themselves/surviving -

it's almost like it's your primary goal.

Second point. Oh come on. Are you telling me that

doesn't

look like you're pressuring Koba into an early read? Your post literally goes "cmon cmon just scumread Super." And "why would I do this as scum?" A million different reasons! If you

artificially create a conflict with an obvious winning side

(or at least a side where survival is easier for those who pick it), how does that NOT benefit scum?

[chennisden]

Mistyx has things to say:

Townreads Super/Koba
Weirded out by how soon Amy started going all serious, but doesn't mind the entrance
Doesn't like either of Flopz/Johnny's entrances, thinks Flopz has a worse entrance

@Super: Mistyx is asking for your MU username in case they have meta or whatever.

That's some good memes, so Mistyx is saying I have the worst entrance in this game? (As I would say both Amp and Johnny are the bottom). Do you agree with that assessment or is this just shading?

I literally answered that before you asked the question

Flopz is okay

[chennisden]

Re post 300: "I think your intent was to try to argue against chenn's SR on you"

I mean wouldn't Auro argue against this regardless of alignment?

[chennisden]

@Chenn: Thanks for the explanation!
I'm not sure I quite grok what "shutting someone down" really means, and I certainly would not expect a single response to shut Lilith down if she were in opposition to me I can see the overexplanation part but I thought that was necessary justification *shrug*

Fair, but I also didn't claim "this is shutting down someone, start to finish: moreso that "this looks like Auro planting seeds and seeing where he needs them

And yes... That was purely from Koba's "can't form reads on Page 4" statement. Given the question was originally to someone else, and I personally was townreading Super at the point I think it's a stretch to assume I was trying to lead him to an opposing stance just from asking if every post so far was NAI.

It's more a feelings thing. More like "if I was in that position I'd feel pressured to do..." Maybe that wasn't your intent. But it felt that way to me.

@AL: Nothing is super important at this stage if you think about it, no? Also, it does help sort (ultimately you don't necessarily need questions, just engagement)

[chennisden]

Gonna go through the list I guess.

Chen - Chen's vote on super at the start was a bit weird as I quite liked Super's intro.

On the AL+DK part, 129 and 145 seem to directly contradict one another, unless I'm missing something can you explain what you meant in 129 as Koba didn't give a reason so what explanation of the reason did you not like (or was that about Koba's Super point in the vote post, but not sure why you'd tie those points together)?

Auro v Chen feels eh, tho now looking through Auro's posts, he's really chummy with fire, tho fire also made a comment on Auro's general play-style so this could just be players with history memeing together. Tho I agree with Chen's assessment that Auro feels a bit forced.

Fuck sorry I literally forgot about this

Anyway I did not disagree with the content of the message, I generally like/dislike posts based on the tone they give off. I'll try to be more clear in the future which is which.

[chennisden]

what prompted u to ask this?

I haven't really sorted you so thought your reads would help in that endevour

town: amp, flopz, firebringer
leantown: lilith, amp
leanscum: super, auro, johnny
scum: chenn, infinity

Can you go into more detail for you Chenn read, or actually can you go into mroe detail in like all of those reads. This is a nightless game, nobody has roles, full tranparency will be helpful as I don't see why you like to keep holding things to your chest (Super read, what you were told about Auro, etc.)

his early push onto auro is a scumslip imo, regardless of what auro flips it has a certain kind of sureness that shouldnt have been present at that point of the game.

Do people want to comment on why people thought I had a certain kind of sureness on Auro when I literally chucked qualifiers in my posts everywhere: "I feel like", "probably", "seem to be", etc. 309 was my first confidentish post about Auro. Otherwise my posts very much are "feeling around," and nowhere did I ask other people to vote Auro, act like I wanted to lynch Auro, or even present a high level of certainty to my read?

When I saw his posting I just thought "

there's

something that would be worthwhile to address" (and it would be good to note right now that aside from Autumn nobody has actually said anything about this).

[chennisden]

Spoiler:

Gonna go through the list I guess.

Chen - Chen's vote on super at the start was a bit weird as I quite liked Super's intro.

On the AL+DK part, 129 and 145 seem to directly contradict one another, unless I'm missing something can you explain what you meant in 129 as Koba didn't give a reason so what explanation of the reason did you not like (or was that about Koba's Super point in the vote post, but not sure why you'd tie those points together)?

Auro v Chen feels eh, tho now looking through Auro's posts, he's really chummy with fire, tho fire also made a comment on Auro's general play-style so this could just be players with history memeing together. Tho I agree with Chen's assessment that Auro feels a bit forced.

Fuck sorry I literally forgot about this

Anyway I did not disagree with the content of the message, I generally like/dislike posts based on the tone they give off. I'll try to be more clear in the future which is which.

Oh cool, what exactly didn't you like about the tone?

Most of his posts feel awkward as shit: it feels the same way as when I'm in a zoom breakout room and I'm supposed to do something with someone else

[chennisden]

Spoiler:

Gonna go through the list I guess.

Chen - Chen's vote on super at the start was a bit weird as I quite liked Super's intro.

On the AL+DK part, 129 and 145 seem to directly contradict one another, unless I'm missing something can you explain what you meant in 129 as Koba didn't give a reason so what explanation of the reason did you not like (or was that about Koba's Super point in the vote post, but not sure why you'd tie those points together)?

Auro v Chen feels eh, tho now looking through Auro's posts, he's really chummy with fire, tho fire also made a comment on Auro's general play-style so this could just be players with history memeing together. Tho I agree with Chen's assessment that Auro feels a bit forced.

Fuck sorry I literally forgot about this

Anyway I did not disagree with the content of the message, I generally like/dislike posts based on the tone they give off. I'll try to be more clear in the future which is which.

Oh cool, what exactly didn't you like about the tone?

Most of his posts feel awkward as shit: it feels the same way as when I'm in a zoom breakout room and I'm supposed to do something with someone else

Wait, who are you talking about here?

Auro

[chennisden]

Although on the other hand Auro is very capable of not being awkward as scum, based on experience from like 2 years ago

So I don't know how much trust I'm ascribing to my read right now

[chennisden]

Spoiler:

Gonna go through the list I guess.

Chen - Chen's vote on super at the start was a bit weird as I quite liked Super's intro.

On the AL+DK part, 129 and 145 seem to directly contradict one another, unless I'm missing something can you explain what you meant in 129 as Koba didn't give a reason so what explanation of the reason did you not like (or was that about Koba's Super point in the vote post, but not sure why you'd tie those points together)?

Auro v Chen feels eh, tho now looking through Auro's posts, he's really chummy with fire, tho fire also made a comment on Auro's general play-style so this could just be players with history memeing together. Tho I agree with Chen's assessment that Auro feels a bit forced.

Fuck sorry I literally forgot about this

Anyway I did not disagree with the content of the message, I generally like/dislike posts based on the tone they give off. I'll try to be more clear in the future which is which.

Oh cool, what exactly didn't you like about the tone?

Most of his posts feel awkward as shit: it feels the same way as when I'm in a zoom breakout room and I'm supposed to do something with someone else

Wait, who are you talking about here?

Auro

Now this chain is getting messy. What message were you saying you didn't disagree with?

My initial question was in regard to your reaction to Super's post, whose post you were saying you did not like there. As it seems Super's post agreed with what you were saying in terms of Koba's bad (read as lack of) reasoning that you referenced in 129. So I wanted to know why you didn't like it?

Wait oops I answered the wrong question and I literally never noticed wtf

Let's try again: I didn't like the tone of 132 from Super - particularly "just tell Autumn why you scumread them ffs lmao"

At the time the last two words gave me a particularly weird vibe. It

felt like

scum trying to be useful while being somewhat awkward and unnatural. Now granted it's very weak evidence and wasnt particularly strong of a feeling, but we were on page 5 or something and I felt like that was more significant than the "townslip" stuff going on at the time

[chennisden]

sorry koba I've been out all day for my bday and i just got home!! i don't really wanna 1v1 you cos i think you're town but imma do some ISOs in a sehot minute

oh happy bday!! hope you enjoyed it (:

[chennisden]

wait can you edit posts??

No, otherwise anyone could just make the game impossible to read by editing posts and completely removing context, right

[chennisden]

PEDIT: pre-edit means "Hi I was writing a post but then someone else posted before me and now I want to address that. Also I'm going to publicly advertise that someone posted before me and I got the pop-up"

[chennisden]

UNVOTE: I no longer feel strongly enough to do this, fuck this entire game

[chennisden]

#477 - Shading Flopz for "depending on his teammates" is silly.

Where did this happen because I literally forgot this happened

[chennisden]

chennisden - shady thinks they have done nothing

OH AND BTW SHADY IS HERCULE IN MY TEAm but I know him as shady from EM so if that's confusing I'm sorry

I've thrashed around on the thread several times I think there's plenty of stuff to read me with

[chennisden]

Probably town ?

[chennisden]

Ok I can kind of start to see the Autumn scumreads now but would anyone like to elaborate

Would be great because I think I'm literally approaching the game completely orthogonally to almost everyone else

[chennisden]

Probably town ?

Actually let me revise

I don't really actively think Super is town I just see very little reason to believe she's scum at the moment

[chennisden]

Hi I've never played mafia before but I got a "PM" thing and it says I'm "town?" What does that mean????

[chennisden]

regardless i think it was fake as fuck.

Everyone's townreading super already so I dont see what the point of something like that would be

[chennisden]

I also don't think scum super would be
1) simultaneously so good she's giving literally everyone no good reason to scumread her, while also
2) being so silly that she thinks pretending to not know if you can edit posts would do much of anything
I don't think it means super isn't scum, I think it just literally means nothing

PEdit: I get what you're saying but I mean I spam useless shit as town all the time and that's an observable fact, it's a stretch to think super spamming means she's scum as opposed to human nature. Speaking from experience as a spammer

PEdit 2: Hi Autumn is there anything specific you want to point me to? Also ftr my read on you is flip flopping like shit and I feel like you're the "easy lynch" scum is going for at this moment in time

[chennisden]

Re super: she's posted a lot of things and I literally have 0 gut response to any of them. Given that i literally went off on auro 5 pages after the game started I can kind of understand what you mean

This feels pretty realistic to me "im not bothering voting for her here cause theres 0 chance i can lim scum super on d1 but im not letting her fuckign skate by unopposed" and is a feeling I feel would be pretty hard to fake, ya feel?

Koba I feel like with regards to anything not called "Super" you're keeping your cards really close to your chest and I cant really see your thought process for anything not Super

[chennisden]

I also don't think scum super would be
1) simultaneously so good she's giving literally everyone no good reason to scumread her, while also
2) being so silly that she thinks pretending to not know if you can edit posts would do much of anything
I don't think it means super isn't scum, I think it just literally means nothing

PEdit: I get what you're saying but I mean I spam useless shit as town all the time and that's an observable fact, it's a stretch to think super spamming means she's scum as opposed to human nature. Speaking from experience as a spammer

PEdit 2: Hi Autumn is there anything specific you want to point me to? Also ftr my read on you is flip flopping like shit and I feel like you're the "easy lynch" scum is going for at this moment in time

would you like to read 3000 posts from super in a game where she flipped scum recently? in a 17k post game. with 48 hour deadlines.

Does super not spam as town? I guess I'll trust you on that if that's what you're claiming, because it'd be easily falsifiable anyway

I won't read all 3000 posts because I honestly don't have the time to but link me and I might skim, oh I don't know, 50 or so in some random location of her ISO

[chennisden]

if ur more concise with ur question ill answer it but htats so vague it feels trap like

If this is to me I didn't actually ask any questions (or at least, nothing I expected you to respond to)

[chennisden]

@chenn Mostly just want to know who you think is scum. I'm trying to find where my TRs are that are most likely to be wrong, johnny was one place but uncrowned agreed with my townlean there. (Basically the reasoning was I didn't think he was trying to look town.) I'm also curious what you think of amph and flopz.

I literally forgot my read on Amph, Flopz felt okay to me (I can't actually point to anything specific that would make me start to scumread him), I didn't particularly like Johnny's entrance (and iirc nor did my teammate?) but I also have forgotten how I felt about him because it's been X hours for some largeish X.

Basically I don't know how I feel about anyone anymore

[chennisden]

https://epicmafia.com/topic/96337?page=1
heres the thread.

im the game mod here

How do you ISO someone

[chennisden]

as a fellow spammer, I am spamry to hear that you're getting spamread for spamming. Particularly when I think there are probably better avenues to justify a scumread if one so desired.

anyway in all seriousness, I think there's a difference to how the two ISOs feel, based on a sample size of \approx 50 from the other game. Granted you could give a million reasons why X Y and Z are different even though she's scum, but I think that applies the other way around too.

I'm not even particularly attached to the idea that Super is town or whatever, which I know some people are -- I just want some reasons I can actually resonate with instead of "she might LOOK like town but when she's scum she looks like town"

I've had experiences when someone just gets paranoia scumread and then the rest of the game becomes unplayable because of that. Id just rather avoid that, partially because there are a million better ways to get someone lynched if you think they're scum

[chennisden]

At this point I think we're beating a dead horse that beat another dead horse, but whatever.

If we're going to be pedantic I think Cult gameplay reflects normal scum gameplay even worse than multiball. Not that I particularly care about game-specific meta arguments anyway, because that requires reading other games when I'm kinda struggling to keep up with this one - forget the rest of the TM event

[chennisden]

I don't get how "X cares about looking like town" indicates someone is scum, because I don't think there's a single player here who wouldn't be kicking and screaming if they were getting scumread for stuff mostly out of their control

I also think people's reads on me are really lazy and that annoys me a little bit

[chennisden]

Is limming the new term we use for yeeting people out of the game now

Haven't been here for a while, I know the old term is discouraged now but I still don't know what the new term for forcefully ejecting someone from the party is

[chennisden]

I don't get how "X cares about looking like town" indicates someone is scum, because I don't think there's a single player here who wouldn't be kicking and screaming if they were getting scumread for stuff mostly out of their control

I also think people's reads on me are really lazy and that annoys me a little bit

I agree with the first sentence obviously

whose read on you do you feel is lazy? how do you think people should be reading you at this point in the game?

Basically anyone whose read on me is "he had an interaction with Auro" and just that. I don't have an understanding of what it is about said interaction other than "he went too hard" - and when my early gameplay is usually me flying all over the place,

I'm annoyed mostly because getting scumread is a terrible feeling no matter what, but I'll be honest: I'm only

mildly

annoyed because I don't actually think there's a lot I couldn't have done as scum up to this point. Something something I wasn't completely incompetent at scum when I played something something

[chennisden]

sorry if I post too much, please let me know if you guys want me to take a step back and not be here so others get a chance to talk too. I definitely can be a bit spammy in games and don't want it be annoying but it's definitely because of the activity level from my home site and it's hard not to just be here and wanting to engage with everyone 24/7

I don't think you've been posting anything excessively useless or making the game unreadable so at least on my end you're fine

Although ditto on my end because I'm one of the spammiest players in this entire lobby, and the only thing preventing me from completely dumping on this thread is the fact I have 100 million other things to do

[chennisden]

Chenn as a rival cute electric type, what do you think about Amp?

I don't think there's enough to judge Amp either way. I don't think the posts she's posted so far are actively bad, and I honestly think the reason everyone's so amped (ha!) to go after her right now is because she hasn't been here to say anything so far.

I wouldn't be particularly opposed to pushing her? Just that so far I've seen no reason she's actually scum as opposed to the easiest option to converge on.

[chennisden]

I think autumn leaves is town by the way and his alignment has been pretty transparent to me. I might be being overconfident right now though, because I'm actually terrible at this game, but that's really the impression I've gotten of the slot after the last few pages/hours/whatever

[chennisden]

Chenn as a rival cute electric type, what do you think about Amp?

I don't think there's enough to judge Amp either way. I don't think the posts she's posted so far are actively bad, and I honestly think the reason everyone's so amped (ha!) to go after her right now is because she hasn't been here to say anything so far.

I wouldn't be particularly opposed to pushing her? Just that so far I've seen no reason she's actually scum as opposed to the easiest option to converge on.

So who do you particularly want to push?

Johnny is the slot I probably like the least, but I don't actually have strong "I don't like this slot!" feelings about anyone yet. Which really concerns me, because I think this is a sign the "implicit townbloc" that's formed right now correlates to activity rather than actual towniness.

This is also how I won a lot of my scumgames when I still played. I didn't try to create bad vibes early on, I just let town do whatever they wanted, bantered, and tried to create "good vibes" (and made sure I was part of the "group.") I am concerned that this is happening to the game right now.

[chennisden]

I'd like to point out firebringer ostensibly has a large number of posts, but I don't remember a single thing he's actually done this game

[chennisden]

I'd like to point out firebringer ostensibly has a large number of posts, but I don't remember a single thing he's actually done this game

is this a shitty omgus?

No this was written before I saw the last n posts and I didnt care enough to pedit

[chennisden]

These takes are like how i would write them to get them to agree with.

How do u all become suckers so easily

Well buddy I'm trying not to get this take ignored because sticking with the "townblock" is a great way to lose

[chennisden]

Firebringer

You think you're a spammer
But wait till I bring the ban hammer
I'm about to get you voted out of this game
Because all of your takes are so friggin lame
You say you spam the place
But I don't remember ya face
You say that you're the king
But you don't know a thing
Your iso might be 5000 posts long
But your shitposting tactics are just fucking wrong

VOTE: firebringer

[chennisden]

I'd like to point out firebringer ostensibly has a large number of posts, but I don't remember a single thing he's actually done this game

I am known for not doing anything though. Its kind of my gimmick.

That's not a gimmick that's just boring

[chennisden]

If you want to lose at least lose in an interesting way

[chennisden]

By the way I suffer from a chronic condition called "laziness" so if you want me to actually post gifs or shit then I'm sorry for your loss

[chennisden]

Please, firebringer, half this page is me
Or are you so dumb that's something you can't see
I know your act is just a scum tactic
But you getting limmed will truly be slapstick

[chennisden]

Try outing your partners, that would make the Mafiascum News

[chennisden]

Breaking news: Pichu scares Firebringer into conceding game of mafia, teammates extremely upset

[chennisden]

Chill buddy I have work for several more hours

[chennisden]

Ok in all seriousness that was fun for about two pages but we should honestly stop before we screw up the entire game

[chennisden]

Also I would definitely have the balls to do this as either alignment, though it might not mean much coming from me

Hopefully none of you are dumb enough to think I am not truly the king of spammers, although Firebringer might be too far gone at this point

[chennisden]

hi I'm bored on shift and can chat if anyone is here

I think the 1v1 between FB and Chen reflects worse on Chen than FB (Firb is still a pretty high TR for me ngl). I had Jess read through that interaction for me too cos I was complaining to them about my reads lol ahe thinks FB's SR felt like a shitty Omgus (unless Firb had previously said Chen was scum before which I should probably look back on) but then she was like nahhh nvm FB is town cos of their tone and scummy dont give a shit attitude - she thinks it is more or less town indicative. she also thinks she is less sure about chen - the way he disengaged from the 1 v 1 was strange to her in that it didnt really feel like he was trying to read FB's alignment

I had actual shit to do, I literally can't even tell if Firebringer's scumread on me / 1v1 / whatever was serious, and if I were in someone else's position I would not want to come back to a literal spamfest. I think ending it early was very justifiable.

By the way for transparency I think FB indicated he did not like my slot before.

For the record FB is probably not out of his scumrange here because he's taken the same "I don't give a shit attitude" before as scum. (I think his sig displays that pretty accurate.) I've also used the same attitude to win games as scum before so I would definitely not write it off

[chennisden]

I'm confused how anyone is getting anything AI from the 1v1 it's literally just memes

Also, I can't really explain my scumvibes on fb, I have this feeling that he's using his attitude/tone to try to get TRs

Absolutely on the first one, and I think I agree on the second as well

[chennisden]

By the way if your argument is something along the lines of "chennis disengaged so he might be scum" I could've literally shit up the entire thread for god knows how many pages, waited until people started trying to play the game, said "good vibes but everything was just a joke bro, you know [lurker] or [easy target] seems scummy let's go for them yeah town?" And that would probably have kept me alive for god knows how long. The reason I didn't do it now is because I think I'm good enough not to die anyway (or at least I hope I am), and marginally increasing the "good vibes" people get from my slot/marginally reducing the odds of my forced ejection is not worth shitting up the game for 10 pages.

I just want to address that before people start screaming at me for it for god knows however long

[chennisden]

i am still evaluating and poking wiht pressure.


leaning not SvS though ill conclude at least that much and pressure on FB will help sort him better IMO

By the way just in general when people claim "SvS" whenever two people have a huge go at each other (not that I think this qualifies as that because we're literally just shitposters) and

just that

,

the atmosphere/ability to form reads in the game is generally kind of fucked

[chennisden]

By the way if your argument is something along the lines of "chennis disengaged so he might be scum" I could've literally shit up the entire thread for god knows how many pages, waited until people started trying to play the game, said "good vibes but everything was just a joke bro, you know [lurker] or [easy target] seems scummy let's go for them yeah town?" And that would probably have kept me alive for god knows how long. The reason I didn't do it now is because I think I'm good enough not to die anyway (or at least I hope I am), and marginally increasing the "good vibes" people get from my slot/marginally reducing the odds of my forced ejection is not worth shitting up the game for 10 pages.

I just want to address that before people start screaming at me for it for god knows however long

why are u so defensive literally no one is voting u lol?

because 1) it's kind of a silly line of thought and 2) from my experience/memory, if I don't address these lines of thought early on it'll come back to bite me

[chennisden]

i am still evaluating and poking wiht pressure.


leaning not SvS though ill conclude at least that much and pressure on FB will help sort him better IMO

By the way this is so fencesitty I dont even know what to say

[chennisden]

I dont think it makes you not town (in fact I think the opposite is true) but it feels like you really couldn't find anything to say about the interaction and just settled on "ok not SvS I guess", which is jsut likely to be true and unlikely to be useful because math

[chennisden]

No it's just kind of not useful

PEdit: Yes

[chennisden]

To be clear it's not something where I'd go in scum PT and say "Hey buddy let's pretend to 1v1 each other for lulz" but more of something that would just happen

[chennisden]

the way you're so upset about me lessening a tr on you just makes me think you're probably town cos of holding onto it so deeply lol

If I were less lazy I would find a funny gif of double standards

[chennisden]

What the fuck happened in the time I was gone

[chennisden]

What is pressure voting amy going to do while she's not in the thread? Do you think it'll suddenly make her appear?

No but it could cause her teammates to react if scum, so...

I don't specifically recall that you only vote when you have specific reasons, can you cite that from any prior game if possible?

Pressure votes dont work if you tell them its a pressure vote

[chennisden]

Lilith doesn't have to vote if she doesn't want to and you guys bullying her into taking a stance when she very clearly has been busy with work isn't productive at all

because I haven’t read so I don’t have any fucking stances???? According to your logic, I’d be townier if I made up bullshit reads. wtf is this reasoning? Do you not think that as scum I’d be faking reads and pushing someone by this point????

This, just this

[chennisden]

it's not a tell at all lmao, heck I don't vote until I have solid reads and really think someone is scum

Super, imagine a game where

no one

votes until they have solid reads and really think someone is scum.
What do you think would happen?

It would just be a normal game of mafia because early votes don't actually mean jack shit

[chennisden]

i really do have a scum read on chennis. I need to case him so u all see what im seeing. Initially the push was memey but i think i posted "ohh i believe he really is scum" and it was at that point i really bought into the chennisden scum thing.

If you wanna do this now I'm all ears

ohh let me give u the short version before i give long version:
short version is i think chennisden is exceptionally wooden for whaat he has posted. I think he has holding back emotions and got some passive aggressive when it came to me earlier in game, i tought he was being exceptionally strange in our 1v1 and i think he knew what he wanted out of that cause there was nothing he was doing to progress a read.

look at his post of 156; at tht point i think he waas trying to give too much on a read to say he had a read when he didn't haave anything. In other words tried harder to put words to postings to justify read when nothing existed. and when he dove more into it 174 i don't feel he believes u were scum originally or his interaction screams he is talking to an actual scumread.

look at his interaction with me. first few posts in this game he talked about me like he disliked me (he says he reads me by annoyance level with me); that pretty much was non-existent in our little tiff and he backed of easily. Now could u say he was just holding back, sure,

its just i don't think he had any intention of using that to read me.

I think he got stuck into a reactionary omgus, didn't know how to progress with that omgus because he couldn't find anything to do push or angle to take it, decided "fuck it. ill just say im joking don't care" and left it. Like it was easy to do that, and then he pretends like he had balls to do something in which he showed no courage or conviction to do while saying he was like doing something out of ordinary for someone to do.

this just in: fb actually plays the game

alright buddy, how do you think i'm supposed to read that interaction?

also you've played against scum me before. you

know

i'm capable of dragging this sort of banter spam on for 20 pages. I did it for a whole game and won. You can't honestly think I can't actually have just rolled with it

By the way I could've just ignored you the entire game with very little consequence if I really didn't think I could drag banter on. (I can.)

Wrt auro read I never claimed -

and explicitly stated otherwise

- that it was a strong read. I was just feeling around

I couldn't take the interaction seriously and read you with it. Now I actually have stuff to read you with. Mission accomplished

[chennisden]

By the way I'm not stupid: I knew the initial vote was a joke, and mine was too.

I also don't play on faking stuff because I don't NEED TO play on faking "content." I play based off of vibes and general feelings as both alignments, so, "try harder"

[chennisden]

Btw Infinity, Murdercat says hi and is reading the game

[chennisden]

firebringer, why do u think super is pocketing you?

the look into my eyes and tell me i am town, don't tell me ill look stupid after this game.
i was at first wanted to tell her to chill but yeah on reread im like "if i didn't know better this was a manipulation tactic"

but legit not gonna worry about her. Gonna keep her my highest townread and give her congrats post game for this if she got me.

u are the type of player that loses to scum super and then wonders why u lost to scum super

I actually strongly sympathize with this line of thought because while I don't think it's likely Super is scum in this case, Super is also the type of player to make me feel like it's not likely she's scum

And everyone is just trying to one-up each other and show how participatory they are in this circlejerky townbloc, and whatever, and nobody realizes that scum has infiltrated it and is using it to win

By the way I think the second line is true regardless of Super's alignment and I'm really annoyed people aren't paying more attention to this, because "half the town" is too big a "townbloc" to be statistically useful

[chennisden]

:O Hi murdercat! I'm impressed lol

Me too

[chennisden]

spammer

Half this page is me so I do think I am the spammer, thank you very much

[chennisden]

Wtf happened to the quote

Anyway just because I have less time to spam doesnt mean I'm not the best spammer in the world, thank you very much

[chennisden]

Useful stuff from murdercat instead of my spam:

- Likes lilith, feels pretty natural. No familiarity with scumgame though
- Sameish for Koba, doesn't see anything that makes him worried, even though (again) no familiarity with scumgame
- Autumn wagon early on was just bad, even if he ends up being scum
- Would probably be voting Amp here

He's on page 20 and understandably cannot focus among the 50 pages of spam (understandably and 50 pages of spam are my words, not his), so he is taking a break.

[chennisden]

Oops, lost in translation, I did not mean to imply he said he never played with them as scum before - just low familiarity

[chennisden]

so I woke up and had a discussion with shady and gira this morning about Koba and me wanting them to ISO them because I'm worried they could be scum refusing to change their read on me and it felt weird to me that they honestly don't TR me by now - shady made a good point in saying that a townblock of 4 town and 1 scum is game-winning for town. he said anyone inciting fear into a towncore is probably coming from a scum!mindset because scum literally have it harder than town this setup as they have to miselim 4 townies to win - meaning scum will NOT want there to be a townblock. having 1 deepwolf isn't a worry for us and Koba being hyper paranoid of me/inciting fear into my slot when they know good and well as town I'm very fucking towny is a worry because it DOES NOT MATTER to them if I'm scum if they're town because the townblock only needs 4 townies in it to win.

I don't think Koba is scum at this point and I want this to be known because I know this post is going to bug them

- shady is actually sending me his read on Koba's ISO as I'm typing this and he is saying he still townreads them but that they shouldn't be so wary of me when even if I am scum it doesn't matter cos you'd need two deepwolves this game to lose as town.

this makes me actually wary of Chen because they have been the one who has been inciting the most fear into the towncore which is something scum would be wanting to do since it is nightless - gira made a good point in saying that as scum you cannot allow an uncontested townbloc to form and pushing against people who would otherwise be universal townreads is >rand scum

It's a fair point that you don't need your bloc to be perfect, but I'm actually really wary of

you

because you've been the one trying to get people to blindly trust a towncore that is probably little better than random, which is something scum would want to do for obvious reasons

I have no reason to trust this towncore. I think super/fb are probably more likely town than not, but I do not want to start drawing boxes, and before you say "but chennis nobody was saying we should locktown X Y and Z," yeah that might be technically true, but is it really? Are we really approaching every slot with the due diligence it deserves or are we just too scared to break this tentative townblock? A townblock that can't survive scrutiny doesn't deserve to even exist.

I'm not calling for the "leaders" of the townblock to be lynched, I'm calling for the townblock to be

examined

. There's a major difference.

[chennisden]

i dont like how u have townread so many ppl -> im afraid ur gonna setup a townblock that is going to be too far too gone to reeval. if u flip scum i will 100% clear u tho tbh

so I woke up and had a discussion with shady and gira this morning about Koba and me wanting them to ISO them because I'm worried they could be scum refusing to change their read on me and it felt weird to me that they honestly don't TR me by now - shady made a good point in saying that a townblock of 4 town and 1 scum is game-winning for town. he said anyone inciting fear into a towncore is probably coming from a scum!mindset because scum literally have it harder than town this setup as they have to miselim 4 townies to win - meaning scum will NOT want there to be a townblock. having 1 deepwolf isn't a worry for us and Koba being hyper paranoid of me/inciting fear into my slot when they know good and well as town I'm very fucking towny is a worry because it DOES NOT MATTER to them if I'm scum if they're town because the townblock only needs 4 townies in it to win.

I don't think Koba is scum at this point and I want this to be known because I know this post is going to bug them

- shady is actually sending me his read on Koba's ISO as I'm typing this and he is saying he still townreads them but that they shouldn't be so wary of me when even if I am scum it doesn't matter cos you'd need two deepwolves this game to lose as town.

this makes me actually wary of Chen because they have been the one who has been inciting the most fear into the towncore which is something scum would be wanting to do since it is nightless - gira made a good point in saying that as scum you cannot allow an uncontested townbloc to form and pushing against people who would otherwise be universal townreads is >rand scum

It's a fair point that you don't need your bloc to be perfect, but I'm actually really wary of

you

because you've been the one trying to get people to blindly trust a towncore that is probably little better than random, which is something scum would want to do for obvious reasons

I have no reason to trust this towncore. I think super/fb are probably more likely town than not, but I do not want to start drawing boxes, and before you say "but chennis nobody was saying we should locktown X Y and Z," yeah that might be technically true, but is it really? Are we really approaching every slot with the due diligence it deserves or are we just too scared to break this tentative townblock? A townblock that can't survive scrutiny doesn't deserve to even exist.

I'm not calling for the "leaders" of the townblock to be lynched, I'm calling for the townblock to be

examined

. There's a major difference.

u dont reexamine townblocks until a flip happens lmfao what

Sorry when I say reexamined I really mean examined, reexamined implies said examination has happened before

[chennisden]

In the last 50 pages there have been pretty much 0 scumreads people would be uncomfortable expressing, except Koba on Super

[chennisden]

alright buddy, how do you think i'm supposed to read that interaction?

also you've played against scum me before. you know i'm capable of dragging this sort of banter spam on for 20 pages. I did it for a whole game and won. You can't honestly think I can't actually have just rolled with it

By the way I could've just ignored you the entire game with very little consequence if I really didn't think I could drag banter on. (I can.)

Wrt auro read I never claimed - and explicitly stated otherwise - that it was a strong read. I was just feeling around

I couldn't take the interaction seriously and read you with it. Now I actually have stuff to read you with. Mission accomplished

if you couldn't read me from interaction, you also made no attempt to make it readable.

i didn't say you couldn't banter and shit post with me forever, i said you found no method of making it look like a real read push, decided to go the fuck it im joking and im bored route and left. Also interesting u brought up gay dance cause that was ur best scum game that i know of

My attempt to make it readable was not continue to spam and actually play the game, and lo and behold, you actually doubled down and gave a read

[chennisden]

Which might be a first

[chennisden]

wrong VOTE: chenn

Citation needed

[chennisden]

Sorry buddy I'm not an "uncomfortable scumread" by any measure

Try again

[chennisden]

I don't think it's specifically

you

making a townbloc. I don't even think you're

intentionally

doing this. But I think the following people have just been relegated off as "hey they're town" based off of very little:

lilith johnny flopz auro, and sort of amy now

until 10 pages ago I would have characterized firebringer as being in the same position. Also we all think Super and DkKoba are town, so what's that, 8 town? That's hilariously broad: of course 8 people are going to be mostly town because games of mafia are mostly town

To be clear I have no issue with townblocks as long as they're useful and based in a good amount of data/info/etc, this just doesn't

feel

like the case to me.

[chennisden]

okay do you think Koba and I deserve to be in this said townbloc then? the thing is I don't have those people in the block... I just posted my feelings and I'm just as wary as you about who I place in it for obvious reasons.

what are your thoughts on Lilith? and what's your read on FB now? do you get why I tr them?

I townread FB ever since he posted his case on me, because to be honest, I can get the read.

I think basically everything Lilith has said so far I agree with. I'm inclined to townread her, but I do think part of that might be because I'm biased by that

[chennisden]

okay do you think Koba and I deserve to be in this said townbloc then? the thing is I don't have those people in the block... I just posted my feelings and I'm just as wary as you about who I place in it for obvious reasons.

what are your thoughts on Lilith? and what's your read on FB now? do you get why I tr them?

I townread FB ever since he posted his case on me, because to be honest, I can get the read.

I think basically everything Lilith has said so far I agree with. I'm inclined to townread her, but I do think part of that might be because I'm biased by that

the read on me* for first line

[chennisden]

okay do you think Koba and I deserve to be in this said townbloc then? the thing is I don't have those people in the block... I just posted my feelings and I'm just as wary as you about who I place in it for obvious reasons.

what are your thoughts on Lilith? and what's your read on FB now? do you get why I tr them?

I would say the two of you (Super/Koba) are the only slots I'm comfortable enough to write off for now.

[chennisden]

pocket denied

I dont actually care what your read on me is

[chennisden]

okay do you think Koba and I deserve to be in this said townbloc then? the thing is I don't have those people in the block... I just posted my feelings and I'm just as wary as you about who I place in it for obvious reasons.

what are your thoughts on Lilith? and what's your read on FB now? do you get why I tr them?

I would say the two of you (Super/Koba) are the only slots I'm comfortable enough to write off for now.

do you townread us or do you just not want to bother with us right now?

what are you strongest townreads?

Both for the first one. and probably you two then autumn

cool then u wont mind if i vote u out of the game

You can try

[chennisden]

For the entire game, most scumreads people have been expressing are ones that would be "safe" to make. I've seen a very small number of "hot" takes outside of Koba being paranoid on Super.

[chennisden]

Hopefully that makes an iota of sense

[chennisden]

I don't have any conclusions to draw from that or any specific people to call out, which is what is really concerning to me

[chennisden]

I called it out because I was concerned about the

gamestate

-- despite the ridiculous pagecount of the game, I don't feel like we've actually gotten anywhere yet or made any progress.

More significantly, I think the reason we haven't seen unpopular reads is because people are either subconsciously or consciously scared to give them out because the atmosphere feels so one-sided, so deterministic. Or at least

I think

there are probably some opinions I may have had before quashing them and going, "nope nope you're just seeing things, nothing to see here, move along" to myself.

I don't actually know how to address this. "Pretend your reads don't exist anymore and start from fresh" is in no way a good solution. But I'm open to other opinions, particularly because I think it's very likely I'm just wrong here/being bad at the game.

[chennisden]

oh unrelated but tell okapoka hi and I wish I could've played with him again

[chennisden]

OH MY GOD ITS MENALQUE

[chennisden]

super why did u just now decide to post a vocaroo?

https://voca.ro/1aLtprx18hPY

if my memory serves me right i think you are Technically Not Allowed to do this, mostly because there's the possibility someone goes and edits a vocaroo or whatever

Unless that's not something you can do on vocaroo or whatever, but I would still check

[chennisden]

Hi chenn! I really appreciated some of your posting while catching up

Why not not kill me so we can have more of my spam in this thread

[chennisden]

super why did u just now decide to post a vocaroo?

https://voca.ro/1aLtprx18hPY

if my memory serves me right i think you are Technically Not Allowed to do this, mostly because there's the possibility someone goes and edits a vocaroo or whatever

Unless that's not something you can do on vocaroo or whatever, but I would still check

Mod already requested that people not do this going forward.

Serves me right for not reading before I post.

[chennisden]

Maybe I havent played mafia for a while or Im not the most mechanical player but I dont know why people keep talking about how "it's black flag so we can just elect not to kill X/Y" or more commonly "its black flag you dont even have to kill me"

Is this actually setup optimization? Or are we just using it as another reason/excuse/etc to say not to kill someone

[chennisden]

Ok then I argue my spam is so good I should live regardless of alignment

[chennisden]

which I’d expect you to feign as scum, but like, idk if you’d think “man I /really/ need to fake enthusiasm about mena being in the game!

I dont think thats something that needs to be faked regardless of alignment

Scum are people and are allowed to enjoy

stomping

playing with people

[chennisden]

Ok then I argue my spam is so good I should live regardless of alignment

im sorry to tell u this.

ur really not spamming yet. look at post count, ur not even in top 5.

You lot have been doing useful stuff. My posts are more disruptive on average, I'd say, several time more disruptive on average. I am the best spammer

[chennisden]

Firebringer you're honestly one of the most entertaining people to play with regardless of alignment

[chennisden]

Maybe I havent played mafia for a while or Im not the most mechanical player but I dont know why people keep talking about how "it's black flag so we can just elect not to kill X/Y" or more commonly "its black flag you dont even have to kill me"

Is this actually setup optimization? Or are we just using it as another reason/excuse/etc to say not to kill someone

I mean, you don't have to elim every scum because of the setup. But super is saying that I shouldn't vote her, even if I think she's scum, because I can just find her partners, which is ??

This

I think the rest of her points are mostly fair, more or less, but this

[chennisden]

Firebringer you're honestly one of the most entertaining people to play with regardless of alignment

Ty i try to entertain myself

wait didn't u call me annoying first few posts

I mean I was mostly bantering but ok

[chennisden]

One, he has a very good scumgame

im sorry but BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

[chennisden]

You're right that scum me, assuming you and Infinity are both town, would probably call both of you town. But I don't really do subterfuge as scum, I generally try to overtly take control of the thread, and even if different people are calling me scum at some point, I would just intimidate them into not actually lynching me

Just in general if I were scum here I wouldn't be "shading the townbloc" because I don't think yall are stupid, it would definitely get noticed and called out

[chennisden]

By the way the reason Gay Dance was so hard for me was because 1) my teammate literally just died before the game really started 2) I literally got paired with a POE slot and 3) my other teammate was also kind of gone for the first half of the game 4) everyone thought my teammate was scum and 5) Bingle could've killed me whenever he wanted to, which is why if you read

that game

I went and did risky stuff like subterfuge

Here I don't need to take any risks because I was in a comfortable position and I still am in a comfortableish position but I'm still doing it nonetheless by directly contesting the general consensus when it probably would've fallen apart on its own if it were wrong. I think that's the main difference between my play now and how I'd play as scum

[chennisden]

Who do you think are the people you’d be able to intimidate into not guillotining you here?

I don't know, haven't really thought of the game in this mindset

Is that a way of saying you think fire is town in not so many words?

I think fire is town but I also did not mean to imply that in the last two posts.

[chennisden]

I think infinity is town, and I'm kind of looking at him more from a logic/content approach and less tonally. Just because I don't think trying to toneread him the same way I toneread other people would work anyways. And I kind of like what he's been saying even if it's not safe or consensus

[chennisden]

One, he has a very good scumgame

im sorry but BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

I know this is rich of me after I said this but I think I'm good enough as scum to be able to have taken control at several points of the game

[chennisden]

Also would like to second Firebringer(?)'s take that Menalque is good enough to take this sort of brazen entrance as scum and get toneread as town for it

[chennisden]

This doesn't mean he's scum but this just means he's good enough that I can't even come close to writing him off yet.

[chennisden]

I think town Menalque would likely be uneasy/unwilling to write off my slot, but I also think scum Menalque is smart enough to know that as well and capable enough to pull that off

[chennisden]

Man I actually wish I was scum rn

[chennisden]

This would be the perfect game to have rolled scum in

No vigs to shoot you and no Bingles that might leave on you

[chennisden]

Oh I voted firecringer

UNVOTE:

[chennisden]

Can you link said "intuition"/meta reasoning because I dont remember seeing that

[chennisden]

Can you link said "intuition"/meta reasoning because I dont remember seeing that

More specifically this is targeted towards autumn case

[chennisden]

The idea that mena is an easy target is absurd.

I mean *I’m* not but my slot kind of is this game

he only started pushing ur "slot" when u occupied it though.

Point being? It prob wasn’t necessary to push my slot before I repped into it

ur slot is no longer an easy target when u start posting lol.

Only I am allowed to pocket menalque

[chennisden]

game aside i think super and nancy drew 39 would really get along

LMAO

[chennisden]

Can we all take a chill pill

I'd like to play the game, and while yall probably are still within the confines of the rules for now, I think yall are being excessively aggressive/personal to a point where I'm starting to get uncomfortable

Thanks

[chennisden]

Someone might be scum/town/playing a bad game/whatever but I don't think that's an excuse to start being rude to each other

By the way I don't care if you're scum or your town or you think this is strategically beneficial to your faction, I think there are more important things to do than winning forum games

[chennisden]

Can we all take a chill pill

I'd like to play the game, and while yall probably are still within the confines of the rules for now, I think yall are being excessively aggressive/personal to a point where I'm starting to get uncomfortable

Thanks

i hear what ur saying.

we need another rap battle

Signups(1):
chennisden

[chennisden]

Chennis what level of bribery would it take for you to vote autumn here

I can do you a best offer of letting u survive until mylo upon a scumflip

I dunno probably a case

PEDIT: A good one

[chennisden]

By the way I dont have my vote down and if anyone who's played with me from long ago remembers this, I generally try not to throw votes willy nilly in this stage of the game until I have someone I actually want to focus on

I also want to talk to Auro at some point.

[chennisden]

Ok I'll be more explicit, I'd prefer if people stopped calling each other liabilities or bad, even if it's "at the game."

[chennisden]

I'm not in the best emotional state right now to be honest and I dont need more of this. I'd like to actually play the game even if I didnt roll my preferred alignment because I generally value my commitments. (Somewhat related: I've replaced out exactly once, it was last year's TM, and I ended up getting nightkilled the same night anyway.) So please dont make this hard for me

[chennisden]

Very related but you are literally the best firebringer

[chennisden]

Can we all take a chill pill

I'd like to play the game, and while yall probably are still within the confines of the rules for now, I think yall are being excessively aggressive/personal to a point where I'm starting to get uncomfortable

Thanks

By the way before anyone tries to make an argument one way or another about what these recent posts mean for my alignment, please don't

I don't think it's going to be helpful at all for sorting me, and there's plenty of stuff to sort me with anyway, but calling me town/scum for it would imply that 1) I'm trying to do this to be strategic or whatever and 2) it's okay to be mean to other people based on alignment. When the game is literally based on a 3/10 random chance event

[chennisden]

By the way I think the most important slot to sort right now is Auro, and I think in particular Auro-Super interactions are worth examining.

[chennisden]

i feel mena energy is off because he is holding back from being toxic and i really appreciate him doing that btw.

Would like to concur with this.

By the way I think the most important slot to sort right now is Auro, and I think in particular Auro-Super interactions are worth examining.

Go on

So this is the thought process I had:

"Okay Auro feels really weird right now, the general vibe - or lack thereof I'm getting from him right now makes me think he's scum. I also have had reservations about Super and kind of Menalque based on the last N posts, so that's a good place to start looking. Yeah ok Auro might be scum here and I'm getting bad vibes from Super, let me see how he's been defending her recently-

"wait HUH auro is voting super???? ok NOW i really need to start paying attention to this game and rereading the two of them"

[chennisden]

I'm going now, gotta go and get ready for camp

sorry if I crossed the line but I can't play in a game where someone tunnels and mocks me all game and makes me feel like shit. I won't be around for a while, going to take a much needed break from this hell hole.

nice meeting you mena thanks for defending me, i appreciate it and thanks FB for also being nice to me even though i went a big crazy and mad today bye

Hope you enjoy camp. Sorry to hear the game is making you feel this way

[chennisden]

For the record, Menalque, I don't even know if I have scum vibes on Auro anymore, mostly because I expected him to be defending super and not voting there. That kind of shook my view of both slots really hard and made me question if I was really paying enough attention to the game.

It's mostly based on the way you guys were interacting with Koba for the second part.

[chennisden]

It doesn’t really matter how long ago it was koba, that game shot down your credibility when it comes to claiming to read me permanently

I dont think this is true and I also dont think it makes the game more fun to play by claiming X cant read you and therefore anything they say shouldnt count

Especially when you're a "keystone slot" (i.e. one of the most important/interesting slots to sort for the game).

[chennisden]

It's mostly based on the way you guys were interacting with Koba for the second part.

Hmm?

I would not go as far as to pin down my read on you two as "scum," but the way you two interacted with Koba is reason for me to take another look at your slots. Particularly when your predecessor wasn't the towniest of town, and there were a lot of weird interactions around that slot

[chennisden]

I dont know why but I've mentally written off Johnny as town, and I definitely dont think Ive done my due diligence on him

[chennisden]

I mean koba can obviously try and sort me

My point is that yes, I do think it’s very damaging to your credibility when you claim to be

absolutely certain

on a read on someone, then you’re completely wrong, and to not then approach that person in a humble way in the future

Like I remember the first time I got utterly duped by someone (skitter) I then spent several games acknowledging that I wasn’t that sure I could read her until I had a few games under my belt where I demonstrably could

That's fair, but I do think you came across a bit strong there

[chennisden]

That kind of shook my view of both slots really hard and made me question if I was really paying enough attention to the game.

What does that mean for auro/super alignments?

No clue right now. But I think I should elaborate on the way I play mafia as town for those who havent played with me before (almost everyone), esp because it's really out of the ordinary:

I don't really try to sort people too confidently early on. I just think my early reads aren't reliable enough to deviate significantly from chance and I'd probably get a lot of exposure bias (and contribute to it!) if I actually had any form of confidence in my reads. Instead, what I try to do is I try to track the development of the game and identify what the "keystone slots" are: the ones that are most feasible to solve and end up having a large impact on the game if sorted correctly. Then I actually try to sort some non-empty subset of these slots, and when I do make progress I can look at the game from another perspective, all while updating based on new info that comes in (posts, flips, etc). In the end my "solve" ends up looking drastically different from the common opinion.

To put it more explicitly, I believe Super, Auro, and possibly Menalque are the keystone slots here. Hence why I'm going to be focusing on them so much.

[chennisden]

It's mostly based on the way you guys were interacting with Koba for the second part.

Hmm?

I would not go as far as to pin down my read on you two as "scum," but the way you two interacted with Koba is reason for me to take another look at your slots. Particularly when your predecessor wasn't the towniest of town, and there were a lot of weird interactions around that slot

Okay, but I guess I’m not seeing what’s scummy about our interactions with koba

Like it’s very frustrating being tunnelled by someone you (1) know is wrong (2) has been wrong in the past but won’t admit that (3) you strongly suspect is reading you based on personal issues rather than what you’ve done in game

And like it sounds like at least 2 and maybe all 3 of those things would also be true in super’s case if she’s town which so I get why she’s frustrated here

Wait, I want to make clear that I haven't actually drawn any conclusions, and I'm not even sure this uneasiness equates to my feeling it's scummy

I actually form much weaker conclusions than most other people at this stage of the game (see my last post I guess) so basically anything I share is mostly me feeling around. And while I might currently feel like I think these interactions are scummy, I think the only confident conclusion I've drawn is that a) I think there's scum in Super, Auro, Menalque (which is a very weak take because 1 - 7/10*6/9*5/8 is a pretty stinking big number), and b) that finding the scum in said list is more feasible and more important than focusing outside it.

[chennisden]

@flopz @lili @auro can i interest any of u three in a delicious autumn wagon?

Hmmmm, I’m feeling like atm it’s either a Chenn+AL scum-team or Men (+maybeee Super but I don’t want to vote there) is scum.

I was casing Auro but after all this stuff is happening I started looking more at Chenn and Infinity.

Aside from Chenn being a massive liar about his hyperposting, the only hyper part is the amount of times Chenn has called his posting hyperposting lmao. The whole Chenn V Fire thing was just so meh. Like Chenn didn’t do anything with that and it was a pretty -.- affair. Like Chenn's been talking a lot about how if he was scum his hyperposting would be off the chain and how he would take over the thread. I don’t know why they wouldn’t just do that as Town then and try to push in a Townie direction if they believe they can so easily take over the thread.

I feel that Chenn + Infinity just seem too together this game, especially looking back through the game. With both agreeing together quite often and from both sides.

Tho for Infinity, I do like how they were fair to me after my push against them and didn’t hold it to me after. They also felt a lot better after their first day. Now, their Super push out of nowhere is either really scummy or so out of left field it goes all the way back to town and I haven't finished deliberating over this. So I think rn I would put my vote on either Chenn or Men

I dont need to be top poster to take control of thread

I also dont spam the game because a) online school is freaking CRAMMING hw down my throat and b) yall were NOT JOKING when you said this playerlist was the spammiest, and I don't particularly want to add to that without also adding value to the game

[chennisden]

Also the reason I don't do that as town is because I'm pretty terrible at the game and I don't want to get flamed for throwing if I lead town in a bad direction lmao

[chennisden]

Chenn have u like, ever talked about this keystone slot theory stuff before or have u err ever actually done this before in a game?

I dunno, it's been a while

[chennisden]

Why is Auro a keystone slot to you?

Mostly because (weighted) graph theory: Auro has a large number of decently strong connections to other slots, including the "obviously important ones", so sorting him will shed a lot of light on other slots. I also think he has a good amount of connections/interactions with harder to sort slots as well, something I think is mostly unique to him; I don't think this is true for Super and I think it's not so true for Menalque. (I'm not about to go and hyperanalyze the epsilon posts his predecessor made because I just think conf-bias would be too strong there - but I do acknowledge the early wagon on Amp probably could give a good amount of info)

[chennisden]

the ones that are most feasible to solve and end up having a large impact on the game if sorted correctly. Then I actually try to sort some non-empty subset of these slots, and when I do make progress I can look at the game from another perspective,

Chennis this feels a lot like it doesn’t really mean anything

Can u explain like I am smol scumhunting child pls

I spend early game looking for who I really need to care about, then I care about them really hard, sort their alignments, and then use that to look at slots I did not care so much about before. Then I get a working theory in my head.

And hopefully I dont die, lose, or get nightkilled because scum is trolling along the way

[chennisden]

Why is koba /not/ a keystone slot to you?

Even though Koba slot is important, I dont actually feel like I can get a lot of leeway or make progress on said slot atm

[chennisden]

Actually now that I think about it I play scum with a similar mindset, only that I try to kill said slots, make it hard to read them, or make it hard to figure out who said slots are in the first place

[chennisden]

Whereas you think you can on me/super? What’s the difference here?

I feel like there's more places where I could dig into your ISOs/interactions. Not that I'm claiming the same isn't true for the other slots, but that I think a) I get more out of it, and crucially, b) I'm a lot closer to identifying what said things I need to dig into are

[chennisden]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

[chennisden]

Also wanted to bring this up: I think I am posting a lot, it's just that I'm a hyperposter in a sea of hyperposters

[chennisden]

I feel that Chenn + Infinity just seem too together this game, especially looking back through the game. With both agreeing together quite often and from both sides.

I also found this fact quite interesting. Note to self: Look at this more later

Anyway in general I think "both are scum" is too strong a claim to make, particularly when other explanations can exist: is one buddying the other? Etc

[chennisden]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

Because a not insignificant part of mafia is just getting votes on the people you want

If you can make a scumread top wagon there’s a good chance you get their flip if you can sustain that wagon

And the only real way of seeing pressure is when it’s backed by votes

In this case I also find it interesting that it’s proving very hard to get even a moderate wagon going on infinity in a game where mechanically bussing is v disincentivised

But ur not gonna get votes on ppl that way

[chennisden]

1849 will help

[chennisden]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

Because a not insignificant part of mafia is just getting votes on the people you want

If you can make a scumread top wagon there’s a good chance you get their flip if you can sustain that wagon

And the only real way of seeing pressure is when it’s backed by votes

In this case I also find it interesting that it’s proving very hard to get even a moderate wagon going on infinity in a game where mechanically bussing is v disincentivised

But ur not gonna get votes on ppl that way

You’d be surprised how much just asking people repeatedly can do in terms of getting votes

I mean, at least personally, it feels really insincere, like you're trying to get someone to do what YOU want instead of trying to communicate

[chennisden]

@Flopz I dont really think I agree/understand the last bit because scum can position themselves in multiple places and it's definitely possible fb/super scum would position themselves like that

[chennisden]

Whole good cop bad cop deal

[chennisden]

Talk about this in scum PT instead with your scumteam of Waterbringer and Earthbringer

[chennisden]

Also just wanted to check: Flopz you're (relatively) new to the game right? I think I remembered seeing that somewhere but idk if I'm just clowning at this point or not

[chennisden]

Hot take: Menalque and Super are easier lims than you might think

[chennisden]

@Flopz I dont really think I agree/understand the last bit because scum can position themselves in multiple places and it's definitely possible fb/super scum would position themselves like that

Maybe but I really don't think fire is scum. Aside from his mainly lackadaisical postings, Fire seems like he’s playing fair which I feel is genuine and there’s no reason for scum to do that, especially in his current position where he’s mainly TR. He could just follow the train to the station instead of trying to inspect the tracks.

Tho you could say that he's tactically positioning himself, he was doing this when Infinity started going on about how Super could be Scum where he easily could've just said nothing and nobody would've batted an eye based on his previous postings. While it could be the case, I don;t think it is.

To be clear I dont think he was positioning; I just wanted to know why you didnt think that was a big deal. (Which I think this explains sufficiently.)

[chennisden]

Pays all the bills

Got it rising esports star Menalque

[chennisden]

Ahh, if only avatar bets weren’t an oog influence

"If ur town and it turns out u misread me you have to grovel IN THREAD before GAME ENDS!!1!"

not OUT OF GAME, i say, SIR!

[chennisden]

Chennis did u read the last page

Kinda? I had a rly important family matter come up tho + hw due like 15 minutes later which is why I kind of have not been playing for the past few hours

[chennisden]

Menalque - I do get why you'd think Autumn's reaction to your read on me looks Very Freaking Sus. we are two slots that have publicly vibed for a while. Im gonna be honest I dont really have the time or energy to actually do the games youve linked due justice

I do think one thing you're getting wrong here though is that scum doesnt really get caught by lying or contradicting themselves. I think you'd have to be really silly to deliberately and overtly lie about something like that, particularly when it wouldn't actually accomplish anything. Idk I dont think that actually is scum indicative.

I do think Autumn feels like he's holding back a little here though, but I also think there's a good number of possible explanations why that I think have to be addressed,

whatever way you feel about Autumn's slot.

(The fear of getting forcefully ejected from the game/the annoyance that voicing a read will get you scumread are motivating factors, even for town.)

Autumn - I totally agree with your whole thing about gut. I felt the same way about Auro for a bit and then the game basically forced me to put that aside. (Relatedly, I have very bad premonitions about the game BECAUSE I felt forced off that scumread.) However, even if I might have my own reservations about Menalque's slot, I do have a couple of things to say:

1) If anyone interacted with me like this (picking little ends from past games or whatever), I would be screaming "who cares?? who cares!!!!!" I find it somewhat odd that you didn't do it

here

.
2) I kind of dont see how you got Menalque scum at the point you did? I mean you could say the same thing about me with Auro from page 5 or whatever, but I feel like a gutread wouldnt feel the way your read did?

[chennisden]

I still think chenn is susp for how he used the conflict between me + super and koba to take control of the gamestate

I think the townread on infinity are genuinely fucking baffling

Im taking control of the gamestate since when??

[chennisden]

If we elim super today and she flips town do I get to lead the elim tomorrow wherever I want?

Can we not do this kind of thing?

Everyone knows it wont pan out in the end
so let's not play pretend
Give me a good case
If you want my vote in a place

[chennisden]

I still think chenn is susp for how he used the conflict between me + super and koba to take control of the gamestate

I think the townread on infinity are genuinely fucking baffling

Im taking control of the gamestate since when??

I feel like your gamestate influence has massively shot up since super and I started townreading each other and conflicting with koba

I know you said not to view your requests to keep everything chill as AI but I do think they helped cement you — via your Sane Man/peacekeeper position — as having a lot of influence in the thread

"Chennis does something potentially beneficial for him as scum" is not a reason to be suspicious of me when there's literally no reason I do not do the exact same thing as town there.

[chennisden]

In fact as scum it's arguable just doing nothing would've been better for me, not that I would've done that anyway, because there are more important things than winning

[chennisden]

Honestly I'm somewhat glad to be town here so people can't just say "but look he was scum!! he did it for in game benefit!!" like NO i think we should set a precedent of encouraging baseline kindness and decency to each other regardless of alignment

[chennisden]

that is a horrible proposition, why are you offering up your strongest townread for elimination

Bc neither me nor my strongest townread have any play in the game rn

I would at least like to believe that the town here would re-evaluate after one of me/super being right about the other being town, and rn I have no way to elim scum

No it's still a horrible proposition because you allow your strongest townread to die (or yourself), trusting that town will do exactly what you want, which is a Very Bad Idea

[chennisden]

give me one reason the scumteam would not just allow this to happen and dismiss it out of hand, assuming your assumptions are all correct.

[chennisden]

But I do, presumably, get a whole lot harder to ignore if people clamouring for super to die get that flip and she’s town, something that I would then have been calling correctly ever since repping

Things such as "alright we're killing super BUT IF SHE FLIPS TOWN WE LISTEN TO ME" make it easier to ignore you, not harder

[chennisden]

Like if town wanna elim town and then not listen to the person saying “hey X is town btw and Y is scum” and wana instead go “oh hey, Z was right about X being town... let’s flip them anyway and continue to ignore Y?” then town is just throwing frankly and there’s not a lot I can do

Or or you could try to prevent it from happening instead of staying stupid shit like "sure go kill my tr but when she dies I TOLD YOU SO"

[chennisden]

But I do, presumably, get a whole lot harder to ignore if people clamouring for super to die get that flip and she’s town, something that I would then have been calling correctly ever since repping

Things such as "alright we're killing super BUT IF SHE FLIPS TOWN WE LISTEN TO ME" make it easier to ignore you, not harder

How do you figure that one chief

Because thats something I would do as scum if I thought it would work

[chennisden]

Actually I would scumread you for that if I didnt see a bunch of town do the same shit before

[chennisden]

There’s no advantage in stopping the elim of my TR if I can’t guillo scum instead and just have to compromise on a moderately-scummy-seeming-slot-that’s-prob-not-actually-scum. Because then the issue just drags on into the next day and I still can’t elim scum

Why does you allowing your TR to die, which objectively seems very stupid, give you credibility

[chennisden]

I think I’m making a very reasonable offer hedged against the possibility that I’m wrong

Fmpov:

If super!scum -> my reads have been awful, (koba, infinity) v likely town, you maybe somewhat more likely town, auro v likely town -> I get miselimed D2, no loss to town overall and prob a town win

If super!town -> I get my elim tomorrow if infinity!scum then I think I get more or less locktowned and it’s a 1for1 which is again good for town as a whole. I become unguillotinable and am able to hopefully keep pushing scum without having to put up with bs attacks on my credibility

If super!town -> infinity!town then I probably die on D3 but that’s not an auto-game loss and all 3 of us being town is probably very telling in hindsight for who scum are (people tacitly encouraging my plan without wanting to look too keen for it) town get 2 more shots to win the game with that gamestate knowledge in hand. I’m also not guaranteed to die D3 and can still maybe kill scum depending on how obvtown I’ve become by that point. If I do, we’re prob good. If I don’t then it’s prob a town loss where I’m miselimmed on D4

1) Wow lynching scum is good, who knew

2) Really? That'd be news to me

3) Really? Not losing would be news to me

[chennisden]

I think Flopz is THE easy town mislim people want to consolidate on because they cant be assed to play, so lets not

[chennisden]

Menalque the way that ur so sure of ur solve and want to do things ur way makes me super annoyed because its the kind of thing that comes from town more often than not

[chennisden]

Granted I dont know if ur town or not and u could p easily be scum, and I also think you are capable of deliberately being a thorn by being so insistent on some sort of misfounded "plan" as scum

[chennisden]

2) Really? That'd be news to me

3) Really? Not losing would be news to me

I mean these are very literally the only outcomes if we elim super and then infinity

Super is scum, Super town infinity scum, or Super town Infinity town are the only options, yes. Isn't math great

Btw "that'd be news to me" in the second case meant "if you actually got ppl to take u seriously after pulling the 'OK LETS KILL MY TR but but but we ALSO kill my SR after' shit"

[chennisden]

Im not gonna vote you because I dont think ur the most likely to flip scum here, sorry

[chennisden]

If ur really insistent on getting caught as scum though u can always wait until later <3

[chennisden]

Are you really going with the line of “yes mena, after you’ve been demonstrably proved right about a slot that multiple other people were wrong about, and now want to guillo the slot that the CONFIRMED TOWN player ALSO WANTED TO KILL people will be /less likely/ to listen to you”

Have you ever thought that it's possible that scum you deliberately plays this way thinking "alright this'll get super killed and infinity, that's 2 people dead, and I'm prolly gonna die but let's see if I can't fuck up the entire game for town before I do that"

Is there any reason we should not believe that???

[chennisden]

Im leaving for the night menalque but at least personally I feel like the way you're playing is really not helping even if Infinity is scum

[chennisden]

Oh sry I kinda stopped caring because the game was actively imploding