TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless
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SureIn post 3155, MathBlade wrote:
Agree to disagree. I am not spamming the thread with word definition fight with you when I have a shit ton to read and catch up on.In post 3152, Menalque wrote:
That’s not how I use shadeIn post 3148, MathBlade wrote:
That’s literally shade lolIn post 3144, Menalque wrote:
It’s not shade if I’m just straight up saying your reaction is concerning and you could be scum?In post 3141, MathBlade wrote:
Lmao calling something an overreaction to shade me more while saying it’s not a shade. I can’t. LolIn post 3139, Menalque wrote:And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then
But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)
And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy
A shade is a post designed and/or poking someone to make them look bad. Calling my reaction an overreaction poisons the mind of the reader. It’s a trick I use as scum a lot.
Shade is when you try to make a slot look bad/worse without actually calling them out or saying you think they’re scum
It’s a way to damage them without exposing yourself
Saying someone is scummy for something and explaining why isn’t shade
I’m just making the point that when I say I’m not shading you there it’s because of my difference in definition, I’m not trying to argue I’m not attacking your slot with that point because I am"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I think it’s more that three people are TRing me (infinity, flopz, joqiza) and another four I think are townleaning me (Lili, chenn, auro, johnny) leaving only (you, fire)In post 3157, MathBlade wrote:
And why exactly is Menalque probably not getting eliminated today? You buddies with him or something?In post 3107, Autumn Leaves wrote:Auro, I get that you like to argue, but what exactly are you trying to achieve here? Mena probably isn't getting eliminated today, and fire has already said he's not changing his mind.
@Chenn Why is your TR on me gone?
Also, if you’d /read the game/ then you would know that the idea of infinity/me being partnered is laughable"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I do, it’s called “town players in towns that have previously won in flag games and who advanced a strategy”In post 3162, MathBlade wrote:You don’t have a reliable “good at maths” kid, so you have to evaluate yourself. The question is I am wondering if you can."we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I think I would still like to eliminate infinity today, if scum, then (chenn->johnny) in either order the next two days
If infinity!town, I’d like to kill math tomorrow, and then if scum, fire
If neither is scum, then probably best to execute me on D3 and then in lylo try to figure out if it’s in (chenn, auro, fire) that scum is most likely or if scum just followed a “let town eat themselves” plan and if it’s in (Johnny, flopz, +1 of the above 3)
Still doubt that lili or joqiza are scum, but obviously at that point they should be double checked too"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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You mean in terms of competing wagons? I kind of doubt scum would want to create competing wagons D1 or D2 unless they can split their votes to make it two competing town wagonsIn post 3174, Auro wrote:
I'd still rather kill Chennisden first. I'm not super comfortable with decision trees just yet, we've not had any real tension from wagons yet.In post 3167, Menalque wrote:I would obviously prefer that order, but does anyone in principle disagree that the best 3 slots to flip until scum!hit are infinity/math/me ?"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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okay why?In post 3175, Autumn Leaves wrote:it's certainly not scum-indicative for math"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Like it’s not math/joqiza bc of koba/super i think
The way math was talking with fb makes me think that’s not a partnership
I guess maybe if Koba was just being insanely blatant and taking refuge in audacity then math/infinity could be a thing? Chainsaw defence style
Hmm
Actually, there are more partnerships possible than I thought
There’s no reason why math/flopz couldn’t be a thing
There’s no reason why math/chenn couldn’t be a thing
There’s no reason why math/auro couldn’t be a thing
In terms of purely associative stuff, there’s also no reason why math/lili couldn’t be a thing"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Honestly he’s just annoying me more than infinity is at this pointIn post 3263, lilith2013 wrote:koba’s playstyle is audacious so I don’t see why chainsawing infinity couldn’t be a thing. they did that in legends.
why mathblade > infinity now? after I just joined the wagon too .o.
I don’t really wanna do johnny tho, I just wanted to see if there would be any panic unvotes from anyone who knew he’d flip town"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Also, like, I don’t think me voting math is that surprising lili: I already said that if infinity!town that’s where I’d wanna go tomorrow. I’m not sure there’s that much to be lost in reversing the order, but I’ll switch back to infinity if there isn’t support for this, I wanna end day shortly"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Not... exactly? Basically, full disclosure, this is from a practical POV: I would like to kill in (infinity, math) until scumflip. If there’s not scum then I’ve fucked up p badly, so be it, that can’t be helped, but I think there’s decent odds there’s scum in there, probably >rand odds. I’ve fought all day for infinity and still think a lot would be resolved by flipping him — eg I think we almost always just kill in (Johnny and chenn) the next two days then reevaluate if the game isn’t over. However, I feel less confident on infinity than I did earlier — this may be because I’ve more or less made it clear what to do to get a TR from me (engage me in good faith, try to focus beyond small areas) and so he’s just... done that. He still hasn’t towned it up at all like he did in PyP imo, but he has improved.In post 3272, lilith2013 wrote:
I don’t think it’s an unreasonable vote? more asking because of wagoning things do you know what I meanIn post 3269, Menalque wrote:Also, like, I don’t think me voting math is that surprising lili: I already said that if infinity!town that’s where I’d wanna go tomorrow. I’m not sure there’s that much to be lost in reversing the order, but I’ll switch back to infinity if there isn’t support for this, I wanna end day shortly
to be honest I don’t even know what I mean
Math coming in, proposing a big grand strategy, and then getting super shitty when I wanted to verify that it’s actually a strat that’s good for town is... dubious. Especially as I think he’d have used the fact that he proposed the strategy to try to ensure he was in the townbloc (where, if he’s scum, that definitely... weakens the strat and makes it easier for scum because one of them is fairly safe from elim). I also dislike his points that I don’t want a townbloc when among my opening posts I said something very along the lines of “if I can just find like 3 other town I’m confident in, ideally 4, then the game is basically won”. Which is not precisely talking about townblocs but which is thinking in that sort of way — successfully PoEing scum. Then there’s koba basically having just lazily tunnelled me/super for the entirety of the game after my rep in. I just don’t get good vibes from how math is playing this, and his lack of reading is concerning to me. I dislike that he’s pushing me without having read my ISO, and I dislike how quickly his suspicion of fb disappeared as soon as I *asked* about his strat. Wasn’t even critical, just asked about it.
So basically, I’m less sure on infinity and math has made the koba!slot worse imo. Which then brings me to my final reason for switching: I feel like it’s gonna be easier killing math today. I think infinity has sort of locked himself into a bad position as scum because he knows I’m very dubious of him but by insisting he super duper TRs me I think that’s a hard place to pivot out of it I push him tomorrow for instance (which I will prob be doing if math doesn’t flip scum). Whereas I feel like it’s going to be another absolute fucking slogfest to elim math tomorrow if I *am* wrong on infinity, and so for that reason I think I’d rather reverse the order rn"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Joqiza, how strong are you on johnny!scum? I’ll vote there if you’re very confident, but my concern is he really feels like a compromise slot, which I think both makes him more likely to be town and makes him a less useful flip if town compared to infinity/math"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I would seriously consider adding fb to thisIn post 3285, joqiza wrote:In my view, a block of myself/Menalque/Lilith/Auro probably wins the game,
I think he’s very offbase this game, and is being a bit lazy, but I think it does read like he’s solving in a lot of his interactions and I’m struggling to see what his aims are as scum"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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In post 3293, lilith2013 wrote:would prefer fb > auro in bloc I think. team likes fb"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Dear god, tell me this isn’t the new “Flavor Fever”In post 3301, Auro wrote:pauronoia"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I agree that townblocs that don’t get re-examined are bad. I also think that townblocs that are overly forced are bad, which is why I don’t think this is a townbloc exactly nor do I really wanna make it one (I would say a townbloc is where basically all the TRs are mutual). But I think I’d like to have a pool of players that I don’t want to elim on D1 or 2 even if I’ll re-evaluate on D3 if no scum flips by then, and I’d like to try to align votes as much as possible within that. Me/lili/joqiza aligning would be good; having 4 or 5 votes would be even better.In post 3301, Auro wrote:I don't think fb or I matter: townblocs from the perspective of "let's just lim everyone else" are theory bad as you always have better information with flips, I think you/Joqiza/Lilith should just make an extra effort at aligning with each other.
I’m also not sure what lili’s actual read is on me: I know I’m somewhere towards town but idk if I’m a lean, a read, strong or weak, or conditional for her, which is also slightly complicating."we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Oh, right
I think fb is prob going to continue to tunnel me all game so I wouldn’t necessarily call this aligning, but I think if we can win before a lylo with both of us in it and I can stop him getting much influence in the game that probably isn’t a problem"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I’d say talking about influence is fine but I think charisma can have an oog implication of what people are like just in terms of their personality and it’s sort of a blurred line. Like skitter for instance is a very charismatic person as is the duck but I’ve seen games where neither of them could get what they wanted at all and had no influence despite their charisma
I think influence-wise it seems like johnny/flopz/fb/infinity are probably towards the bottom
Chennis somewhere in the middle as is math
Then maybe auro?
Then probably lili
Then probably joqiza and me"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I do agree this is an interesting thing but feel like the gamestate isn’t at a point where it’s clutch enough that it’s worth the risk of making things unpleasant againIn post 3323, Auro wrote:I think alignment-independent personality reads are somewhat relevant in forming alignment reads and the scenarios where versus are interesting to look at, but perhaps I should shut up about that now"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Are you seriously going to accuse me of misrepping in the same catch up where you make this post:In post 3376, MathBlade wrote:
That is not my position AT ALL. This is horrible blatantly bad misrep. My position is that of J’s mentioned above. Find a townblock that is mutually agreed upon and execute outside of it. Re-evaluate said block on occasion then keep going.In post 3290, Menalque wrote:Math also seems vaguely disingenuous if his whole thing is “a townbloc wins the game but only if I’m a member” is his position, which is kinda what it seems like to me
Which presents my suggestion that auro maybe not encourage people to rank other players by charisma as putting “wool over the eyes” because of “not liking their reads being questioned”?In post 3379, MathBlade wrote:
Someone please explain why Menal is a townread other than (oh just reread the pages). That very much looks like a wool over the eyes response when someone doesn’t like their reads questioned.In post 3315, Menalque wrote:That doesn’t seem like a super helpful question, auro
I am thinking Flopz/Johnny/AL/Menalque for my would elim pool."we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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The first line of that post is about how his views are similar to my own, and i made the post firstIn post 3375, MathBlade wrote:This posting is much better than Menalque’s keep J in your townblock.
How are you trying to call out joqiza as doing good posting for saying the same thing as me only afterwards? Because he used more words to say it?"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Yes, a fetish of mine is telling the town exactly what I’m planning to do as scum just for shits and gigs, you’re such a trulyIn post 3378, MathBlade wrote:
Why does this read like it comes from a scum PT?In post 3310, Menalque wrote:Oh, right
I think fb is prob going to continue to tunnel me all game so I wouldn’t necessarily call this aligning, but I think if we can win before a lylo with both of us in it and I can stop him getting much influence in the game that probably isn’t a probleminspiredscum hunter mathblade, congratulations"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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In this case, as in koba’s, potentially as in yours, the entire game was being interpreted through a lens of me!scum. As I know that not to be true, why would I trust the reads of that person on the rest of the game if I know they’re viewing all the other slots bearing in mind the idea that I’m scum and evaluating our interactions in that lightIn post 3381, MathBlade wrote:
So you’ll listen to him so long as he townreads you? What if a majority of the game didn’t townread you? Surely there would be a reason. Someone’s reads/alignment aren’t dependent on whether they read you right, they’re dependent on logic and thoughts and bringing those to the table to find scum.In post 3327, Menalque wrote:Oh right
I mean, I would disagree with that so long as he continues to call me scum and one of my aims is to continue sidelining him so long as that continues
Also, if a majority of the game didn’t townread me, I’d probably die, duh doy
Finally, yes, shockingly, I’m already aware of that! But as already covered, if the rest of their reads are gleaned through the filter of believing X is scum and you know for a fact that X is not scum, that’s good reason to be sceptical of the rest of their reads and not just their read on you"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Quoting this to be able to find it more easilyIn post 3359, joqiza wrote:@Menalque
Here's the progression from Koba that I liked (a bit long):
{
500,Koba says they won't be able to eliminate scum!Super d1
965,
966,Koba thinks Super might be scum, but is looking outside
1006,Koba votes lilith
1011,
1012,
1013,
1023,
1026,Koba is gauging Super's response here
1028,Koba thinks lilith/Super are partnered
1034,
1036,Koba wants to lim lilith first because they don't think they can lim Super d1
1038,Koba still appears to be evaluating their own read, though
1044,
1058,
1072,Koba asks Super for a reads list
1080,
1082,
1096,
1106
}
Koba expressed a paranoia of Super, but acknowledged that they didn't think they could ever find eliminate her d1. When they voted lilith, they seemed to believe that Super's response was partner-indicative. They appeared to be trying to re-evaluate their own read, and asked Super for a reads list.Koba has watched me catch scum!Super twice. Once while Koba and I were in a hydra together. Both times, I caught Super because she demonstrated TMI about flipped slots.
This is a complex thought process for scum to fake. In addition to that, it is largely internal, they're not trying to show off their towny thought process, they're just scumhunting. And, based on my personal meta with them, I believe is likely they would have this thought process as town.
I’ll have a look tomorrow when less tired and I’ll try to parse it"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Menalque he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 23727
- Joined: May 15, 2019
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Madrid, Spain
Like I can see worlds where math!slot is town quite easily and they’re playing badly and that’s just irritating me because in koba’s case they were tunnelling for personal reasons and in math’s case... he just doesn’t seem to have any real arguments for why I’m scum besides “blah mena was a meanie about my strat and also he’s lazy!! >:(“ and is also refusing to read the game through and is trying to engage without any context (which I just think is +scum in general tbh), which I guess boils down to math being OMGUSy (which i do know is true and I’m aware he has problems with strong voices) and lazy himself"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Menalque he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 23727
- Joined: May 15, 2019
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Madrid, Spain
And like math, you can go on about being busy IRL as much as you like but the game is like a two hour read at most on a laptop, you could definitely have managed that over the last 3-4 days, especially if you idk, read when you’re taking a shit or something as well (which is, full disclosure, how I normally make sure I’m caught up on games in the morning)
Either get the read through done and summarise your thoughts on it, or stop lazily dicking around with my slot because I didn’t want to stroke your ego"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Menalque he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 23727
- Joined: May 15, 2019
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Madrid, Spain