TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[chennisden]

Also maybe a few lines on why you think I'm town would be helpful, because I dont think I'd believe I'm town in your position

[chennisden]

i dont think people are townreding me, moreso that ppl are reluctant to expressly sr me rn

there are a ton of reasons to sr me from your pov, i feel. did my recent posts on you, which were somewhat cryptic, NOT feel like me angling on you? did you miss it or just decide not to call it out? im shooting down credibility of p much every proposed townblock or compromise or whatever. also why did you decide i wasnt faking it when i expressed surprise? i think i was in a nontrivial position there.

[chennisden]

to finish my thought from last post, said show of surprise conveniently removed me from the situation.

although for the record it wasnt actually fake

[chennisden]

ok i actually need to sleep now, so goodbye

[chennisden]

By the way I think the most important slot to sort right now is Auro, and I think in particular Auro-Super interactions are worth examining.

why are these interactions important to you Chen-Chen?

its so low energy in comparison to this and is a bullshit comparison to have been made

He was sick and V/LA for a large part of the game, and when he came back he had a lot of energy

can you quote where you think his high energy reflects similar to this game then?

I like Mena. I don't wanna lim there.

I'd be down for a chenny or super vote, or koba if you twisted my arm.

why do you like Mena? if you like Mena why aren't you agreeing on their TR on me btw (yeah, I'm stubborn)

also why don't you like Chen or Koba? also these reads are kinda strange... you would want me but also could go Koba? do you think we could ever be partners here lmao?

i feel mena energy is off because he is holding back from being toxic and i really appreciate him doing that btw.

Would like to concur with this.

By the way I think the most important slot to sort right now is Auro, and I think in particular Auro-Super interactions are worth examining.

Go on

So this is the thought process I had:

"Okay Auro feels really weird right now, the general vibe - or lack thereof I'm getting from him right now makes me think he's scum. I also have had reservations about Super and kind of Menalque based on the last N posts, so that's a good place to start looking. Yeah ok Auro might be scum here and I'm getting bad vibes from Super, let me see how he's been defending her recently-

"wait HUH auro is voting super???? ok NOW i really need to start paying attention to this game and rereading the two of them"

can you tell me why you didn't like my last posts or why you had bad vibes? is it my negativity and anger? I can see why people wouldn't like it but do you really think I'd go that far as scum here in a game where I know no one but Koba? do you really think I'd care that much?

what's your read on Mena?

also you thought Auro and I were partnered? explain?

For the record, Menalque, I don't even know if I have scum vibes on Auro anymore, mostly because I expected him to be defending super and not voting there. That kind of shook my view of both slots really hard and made me question if I was really paying enough attention to the game.

It's mostly based on the way you guys were interacting with Koba for the second part.

can you elaborate on what you didn't like about the way we were interacting with Koba? do you think them mocking me is healthy and going to make me react in a nice way? especially when I called them out in my first post and told everyone they would do this and they continued to actually do this to me :/

That kind of shook my view of both slots really hard and made me question if I was really paying enough attention to the game.

What does that mean for auro/super alignments?

No clue right now. But I think I should elaborate on the way I play mafia as town for those who havent played with me before (almost everyone), esp because it's really out of the ordinary:

I don't really try to sort people too confidently early on. I just think my early reads aren't reliable enough to deviate significantly from chance and I'd probably get a lot of exposure bias (and contribute to it!) if I actually had any form of confidence in my reads. Instead, what I try to do is I try to track the development of the game and identify what the "keystone slots" are: the ones that are most feasible to solve and end up having a large impact on the game if sorted correctly. Then I actually try to sort some non-empty subset of these slots, and when I do make progress I can look at the game from another perspective, all while updating based on new info that comes in (posts, flips, etc). In the end my "solve" ends up looking drastically different from the common opinion.

To put it more explicitly, I believe Super, Auro, and possibly Menalque are the keystone slots here. Hence why I'm going to be focusing on them so much.

'

why are we the three keystone slots? wouldn't you also think Autumn is a keystone slot? also if you wanna sort me you should probably talk to me and question me because I haven't felt like you're talking to me to try and figure me out much people like to talk about me though

@flopz @lili @auro can i interest any of u three in a delicious autumn wagon?

Hmmmm, I’m feeling like atm it’s either a Chenn+AL scum-team or Men (+maybeee Super but I don’t want to vote there) is scum.

I was casing Auro but after all this stuff is happening I started looking more at Chenn and Infinity.

Aside from Chenn being a massive liar about his hyperposting, the only hyper part is the amount of times Chenn has called his posting hyperposting lmao. The whole Chenn V Fire thing was just so meh. Like Chenn didn’t do anything with that and it was a pretty -.- affair. Like Chenn's been talking a lot about how if he was scum his hyperposting would be off the chain and how he would take over the thread. I don’t know why they wouldn’t just do that as Town then and try to push in a Townie direction if they believe they can so easily take over the thread.

I feel that Chenn + Infinity just seem too together this game, especially looking back through the game. With both agreeing together quite often and from both sides.

Tho for Infinity, I do like how they were fair to me after my push against them and didn’t hold it to me after. They also felt a lot better after their first day. Now, their Super push out of nowhere is either really scummy or so out of left field it goes all the way back to town and I haven't finished deliberating over this. So I think rn I would put my vote on either Chenn or Men

I find this post really interesting. you're saying you think Chen/Infinity are potentially teamed and you go on about Chen's hyper posting thing (which imo isn't really a tell, them saying they hyper post and then not hyper post is like... NAI and I don't care for that read lmao). I was thinking the same about Autumn/Chen being teamed but something recent which I'm going to get into has pinged me more in the sense that Autumn is trying to pocket Chen more than anything else (I will elaborate). ANYWAYS, I find this post interesting because you say "maybeee super" in brackets and also are scum-leaning Mena yet you had me as a townread early on pretty sure and I wanna know where this progression ever happened? Also, you finished by saying you'd vote in Chen or Mena which imo is weird because you started off saying it was Chen/Infinity but then didn't say you'd vote Infinity - which makes me worry you're actually Infinity's partner potentially trying to get a Chen wagon instead (especially when I think Autumn was trying to pocket Chen earlier and makes me think Chen could very much be town)

would you vote Infinity today, Flopz?

Mena, is there a reason you think I'm scum besides that I have a strong SR on you out of the gate? It doesn't feel like you're trying to accurately sort me, and it doesn't feel like you're exercising any caution wrt my slot despite talking about how you were wrong about me last time. Especially because you're upset at koba for not being cautious around you in the same way.

I'm not really sure why people are talking about a me/chenn team, like wouldn't that be too obvious? The reasons we have agreed on so much are in the thread, from the time we both SRed auro early on, to the time we both had paranoia and were re-evaluating lots of reads at the same time. I considered that he could be pocketing me, but I think it's more likely we're just both town and have come to similar conclusions about the game.

this is a funny post for you to make because I felt the same way about you when Mena entered the game and instead of sorting them/figuring them out you outright scumread them which to me felt odd - and as I said Amy was an easy push since she was already afk and so the sub coming into the game was definitely a push mafia would want to optimise on

can you explain your townread fully on Chen to me Autumn? I want to know where it comes from and if you can go deeper on it

just in my car about to drive but realised autumn has a player on their team that knows me

autumn what's ydrasse's read on me?

Last thing ydrasse said about you was that she was doubting her TR on you. I feel like my teammates don't really have enough time to keep up with the game properly so are trusting my reads to some extent, or are at least influenced by my reads a lot. But I will take into account her first instinct which was that you were town.

I don't really believe this, I feel like Ydrasse would know how to read me fairly well.. why were they doubting their read on me? get them to ISO me and get a read please.

@flopz what do you think the implication for others’ alignments is if infinity!scum? What about if infinity!town?

I feel if Infinity is scum, then it's more likely for Chenn to be scum due to associations. Tho if Infinity is Town I feel like at least one of you and Super are scum for your pushes towards them, this will also make Auro more townie as Auro's Super push was based on their reaction to Infinity. Also makes FB more townie as fire has been pretty accomodating to Infinity's "hot takes".

I don't like this post because it sets up the idea that if Autumn is town (which I'm still having a hard time believing) then one of us are scum when in reality that might not be the case at all and we could just be wrong. I kinda like your train of thought on Auro... maybe? but at the same time, Auro's push on me kinda felt a bit safe since there was already paranoia on my slot and getting rid of me > autumn would be the optimal move for scum to make here (if we are both town) because I'm quite a hard towny to miselim - although this might be the first game I'm even miselimmed as town but I am going to scratch it from my track record because Koba is in the game so I no longer consider this a real mafia game lmao

@Flopz I dont really think I agree/understand the last bit because scum can position themselves in multiple places and it's definitely possible fb/super scum would position themselves like that

if anyone is going to say i'm scum at least say i'm partnered with FB <3_<3 thank you chen, this is the team everyone wants to see and love

Hot take: Menalque and Super are easier lims than you might think

This is probably truer than it should be

it's only true because of the town we got randomed this game (well you chose to sub into this player list so.... idk what the fk you're doing here when you saw the thread and how bad it was)

here is this juicy LHF screaming for scum to get an easy miselim, oh yes, but instead they go for (mena??? super?????)

what is this gamestate

i don't see it. how is flopz low hanging fruit

low charisma, low aggressiveness, low thread presence, low content level -> easy miselim

the same could be said for Johnny though, right? what's your read on Johnny?

Flopz is in my PoE and honestly could see them partnered with Autumn but this is a hot take that has no backing and I'd need to ISO the slots interactions

I think I want to put Infinity at a Town-lean for me but I'm still fully working on wtf is going on with my reads becuase I'm kinda looking at things in two distinct bubbles atm

where did this read come from in the time you said that Infinity/Chen were scum together??????????????? huh? Flopz explain

infinity, what would you say your degree of confidence is on super vs mena? can you articulate any differences between the two reads?

I'm significantly more confident on mena. On super it's very vague, it's still a strong instinct which I feel like I should trust but I've been doubting it recently. Whereas mena it's like, he had fake reads upon replacing in, he usually obvtowns when he's pushed on and hasn't done that here, and he didn't really make efforts to sort me despite being unsure about me at first. So I feel like I have a lot more concrete on mena.

Infinity it's getting to the point where you can't just say things without backing your reads up lol - what were fake about Mena's reads? can you quote them? you scumread me based on instinct and vague? like???? how is that a thing? it feels like you know people know you do this weird gut shit as town so you're trying to do it this game to be TR (particularly by FB tbh with the gut shit) it's almost as though you're playing on your own meta yet are refusing to actually have real reads here or provide proper reasons for your reads without explaining them properly

can you show me a game where Mena is obvtown when pushed on that you can compare to here?

Can you describe what “him usually obvtowning when pushed on” looks like and how he’s different here?

mindmeld >:)

Can you describe what “him usually obvtowning when pushed on” looks like and how he’s different here?

Full disclosure, PyP is the only time I played with town!mena, but like

Do you remember when he almost got limmed because of your guilty and went into super solvy mode at the very end and everyone unvoted? Another time I remember him obvtowning is when hoopla pushed on him a bit d4 and he basically went ballistic, yelling that hoopla was scum and needed to die. Best way I can describe it is that he feels like he's playing his town game except in 480p. You can see the basic idea, but it's not as sharp/clear as usual.

Also what about his reads seemed fake to you?

1626 and 1640 talk about how I felt the chenn SR was fake, I'll talk about some other things later tonight

can you link that game for me?

I keep asking things and then seeing others have asked it and you've answered lol

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=85406 look at how I approach gimli here

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84991 and how I approach isis/gloria here on d2


You know my reads are largely based on gut anyway, and you know I have reasons beyond the chenn read to SR your readslist, I just haven't given them because you're not interested. I also tried to engage scum!flavor head on in one night stand, so clearly my lack of confident wrt tryharding scum has changed since then, you just chose to ignore that evidence.

thanks for these games @_@ I'm gonna go through them both at some point

Last post to mena and then I'm done.

I have a problem with confidence. Specifically, how much confidence I should assign to my scumreads. I think my gut is a really strong tool for finding scum, but it's difficult to use properly. Obviously, it's not always right, and it's difficult to engage with the reasons why my gut pings when it does. What I haven't figured out yet is when I just need to trust my gut, and when I need to re-evaluate. When I'm wrong, and when I need to push scum until they die. For every wrong scumread I tunnel into the ground, I have at least one correct scumread that just sort of...dissipates (hoopla in PyP was a perfect example). The way I felt about mena when he replaced in was that he was absolutely 100% scum. It was a much closer feeling to my correct scumreads than to my incorrect scumreads, to the extent that I can tell the difference. It felt very different from the gimli and gloria scumreads that I linked above. I also happened to have a decent amount of evidence to support my point. But to be completely honest, me having evidence that I can cite for someone being scum doesn't correlate very highly with them having a red role pm. My gut does. In silent star 3 (linked above) I really felt that isis was scum, and she kept responding to my scumread with possible reasons why I could be wrongly scumreading her. Eventually, it got to the point where I gave up trying to explain the read and wrote a poem about it. Because to me, she was completely avoiding the core reason why she was scum, and that was my gut. And yes, gut is impossible to respond to, but at some point that's how it is. Sometimes, the best time to re-evaluate is in postgame.

Right now, I'm still debating whether to re-evaluate mena. To be perfectly honest, the last couple pages gave me doubt on my mena SR. He seemed to be using information that he knew about my playstyle to read me here, which is a towny thing to do. He also had a sort of fire in him that seems pretty difficult to fake. Then again, I do think mena would be very motivated here as scum, and I remember being impressed by the fire he had in him in One Night Stand where he was scum. Kanna, who has more experience with scum!mena than I do, is still convinced that he's scum here. I also have PyP!mena in the back of my head saying "don't townread me for that!". And given that I laid out a lot of what scum!mena had to do to get me to townread him here, I don't see why he isn't just scum.

More about mena's entrance reads later, for lilith.

I do think Autumn reconsidering Mena here is ... kinda towny but idk if he's doing it in a way because he knows Mena is being towny so it's probably better to move elsewhere and look towny in the process or if Autumn is genuinely trying to slot Mena :/ I agree with Autumn that Mena looking at those games and linking and comparing them was pretty fucking towny lol and I can see why Autumn thought this - I don't think people should completely go by gut unless you have other reasons backing them up though, like lol I can have a gut read but I'm always going to re-evaluate that and ISO a player if I'm really unsure

Mena what do u think of this from Autumn?

This game is going to be a pain in the ass because I think koba is gonna refuse to vote apart from on town and that means needing literally every other town to vote correctly in order to elim scum so long as scum refuse to bus

literally a mindmeld and literally why I think mena has to be town cos so many of his posts are literally my thoughts exactly (especially with Koba)

1811 - because i literally forgot his read on you, you two were pretty important slots, and when expectations contradict reality THAT is a huge red flag (ha) to where u have to look at

1823 - the game im reading does not feel like the game you were reading. it felt deliberate and kinda subtle. someone else used the term but it was "gaslighting." i dont think my feeling was as strong as that, but yea i think that described how i felt

i thought you and auro were partnered because i thought he was defending u lmao

1831 - you might have different thresholds for what constitutes as koba's "shit," but by and large you jave been responding to convenient things, not meaningful ones. your epicmafia games were super easy to address because cult games are not indicative of scumplay. but i felt like there were a thousand other things, and even if the way koba said them mightve felt petty or tunnely or whatever, i do think they were somewhat valid points.

[chennisden]

fuck i forgot to answer "why is autumn not keystone to you" lmao

its because i already am p confident on his alignment, yall being wrong on him doesnt actually tell me much, and yall being right on him wouldnt be as impactful as one of you guys being scum.

[chennisden]

btw i think my strongest trs at this point are flopz and autumn, maybe in that order.

[chennisden]

what i feel like is gonna happen is we flip menalque, he is town, but (rightfully) nobody cares about his "fuck it kill me and listen to super" tantrum

[chennisden]

lets just say i think menalque is town but also id be surprised if he was

[chennisden]

Have to go soon, but in short, I feel like Flopz would have a hard time acting the way he is as scum - and he would have little reason to do so. The reason I think he's town isn't because his slot is squeaky-clean (in fact that would alarm me) but because places where he might feel bad fall in the "newish player playing town" category.

[chennisden]

It is

incredibly

unpleasant to be in a game where everyone has this attitude of “I’m not talking to unless you agree with me that x is scum,” “if you vote x then you’re scum,” “if you dare to not agree with me then you’re scum and I’m not listening to you.” This is incredibly unproductive. I’m here because I want to figure things out as a TEAM. If everyone has this attitude then we get NOTHING done and guess what? mafia have already won because no one was willing to talk and we had no cohesion.

This

[chennisden]

lets just say i think menalque is town but also id be surprised if he was

this is such a fence sitty post like wtf? you think mena is town but would be surprised if he was????
what
is
this

there's a very simple explanation for the second half: the "omg im so frustrated with town just kill me/super and listen to the other after we die" shit is so anti-town I'd be surprised if he were

I'm also going to say the same to you

Stop raging at town and try to play the game or we are going to LOSE and we are going to DESERVE IT.

[chennisden]

@chenn, lilith, koba What are your PoEs looking like?

Menalque Johnny Auro at this point

[chennisden]

Actually no I think Menalque is there because I'm giving into bias

[chennisden]

Yeah ok I think I found a good place to vote

VOTE: Johnny

[chennisden]

Who are you down to lim then

[chennisden]

Actually no you're just scum Menalque and you're just buddying the easiest target

[chennisden]

You haven't done jack shit other than suck up to Super this entire game

[chennisden]

Firebringer Johnny Menalque Auro are the slots I am interested in today, and primarily the first three

[chennisden]

I apologize for my toxicity in the last n posts but I hope you can all understand why I'm a little frustrated at this game right now.

[chennisden]

Chenny - manic nervous energy. Like they got called out early and have struggled to act natural for the rest of the game. Would vote

I do not agree with this assessment of my gameplay

here

, and nor do I think this is something I struggle with as scum

[chennisden]

I agree with lilith and think Menal initial readslist feels Very Not Good to me. Let's specifically go to my case:

Chennis has been super reasonable and I’ve liked some of his posting a lot. He was playing peacekeeper at one point between koba/super i think, but he’s still in the active scumpool for a few reasons. One, he has a very good scumgame and being reasonable, while nice to have around, isn’t actually town indicative. Two, I really think fire is scum and thought their 1v1 looked a lot like theatre and is probably what scum would wanna do imo — distance with your buddy, but there’s no real vitriol there in what’s being said, and there’s no real pressure coming off of it. It was just like “look, me and fire are against each other and conflicting” imo and then got immediately dropped. Final thing is to do with his stances — he called me town and he called infinity town, but conspicuously both at the same time. Gamestate-wise I think we were prob both reasonably likely elims and I think there was fairly justified suspicion on both our slots from town. So how did chenn get to the conclusion that we were *both* town? Maybe he’s just playing really well in which case, uh, sorry — but that is a stance I’d very much wanna have as scum bc I think optically it then makes you look better after either of us flips town. You get to go “hey look, I was right here and X town leader was wrong, we should listen to me now”

I am conveniently placed low for like... no good reason. The only actual

reason

I was here was the FB thing, which I think makes very little sense anyway since both of us are prone to trolling - but more importantly

it's the thing people focused on in thread

. I think this is significant since 1) Menalque generally forms his own conclusions and there were a million other better reasons to scumread me and 2) my description does NOT even match my position here logically. It's almost as if he's trying to appease me

a little

but also put himself into position to try and Murderize Me if I ever become inconvenient for him

[chennisden]

By the way if I were scum and Flopz were town I would keep Flopz as a "backup kill" and not get him elimed early on, particularly when there are other angles I could go for.

And then I would angle onto Flopz whenever I needed to. And I'd also throw some shade at him every now and then, not enough to get me or Flopz called out, but enough to refer back to it later...

oh wait, this is what I feel like has been happening wrt Flopz slot!!!

[chennisden]

Btw I'm not voting Menalque yet because I got into a huge TvT spat with him in a game before and we just happened to win, and I think this is also possible here

[chennisden]

You think flopz is that weak a player?

No, I just think based on the events of this game so far, Flopz is probably someone scum could angle on. Particularly if scum are in the pool I think they are

[chennisden]

How many votes is he at rn

[chennisden]

Actually no you're just scum Menalque and you're just buddying the easiest target

Lmao okay

chenny

I said this because I was mad, and I exaggerated my belief in this

However said belief is not non-zero

[chennisden]

Correction: You havent done shit other than refuse to cooperate with anyone not named Super

[chennisden]

As a wise man once said "scum is probably in your nullreads, not your scumreads"

On that note I think Auro and Johnny are the "keystone slots" (i.e. most productive slots to focus on) right now. I will go one step further and say I believe they are likely to be scum

[chennisden]

RC?

[chennisden]

it sounded like him but i didn't know. it could have been from ank too but u said man so.

I dont remember at this point but you are right, this does feel like something ank would have said

Btw "man" was not meant to be indicative of gender, only existence - perhaps I shouldve went for something more gender neutral

[chennisden]

pretty sure mena still scum tho

this feels very EASY, and i would be mad if it weren't true, but alignments dont care about my feelings

in particular i think theres lots of room for him to just be obstinate town here. and im not too comfortable voting him yet when im more interested in johnny rn, at least until another vc comes out

[chennisden]

stop making the game unfun

I could respond to each of these points but yeah

[chennisden]

Menalque even if all your reads are right here nobody wants to do what you want them to do.

[chennisden]

The way I win games as scum is by letting the kind of people who would screw over the entire thread think I'm scum, that way they get removed from the game - either in spirit or by forceful ejection

[chennisden]

The way I win games as scum is by letting the kind of people who would screw over the entire thread think I'm scum, that way they get removed from the game - either in spirit or by forceful ejection

Question 1: How does this relate to THIS game?

Answer: figure it out

[chennisden]

The way I win games as scum is by letting the kind of people who would screw over the entire thread think I'm scum, that way they get removed from the game - either in spirit or by forceful ejection

This is just an open scumclaim lmao

And I dont see a wagon forming on me buddy

[chennisden]

Pro tip: if nobody is taking your case seriously, maybe it's you who needs to be more convincing, not them who needs to be "better at the game."

[chennisden]

Also, fucking own that shit instead of coming up with bullshit like “oh btw guys treat this as NAI but be nice <3 pls <3 look how reasonable I am compared to nasty >:( shouty Menalque!! Listen to me instead!!!! But it’s NAI btw”

I was shutting you down for being a dick, not because I wanted to discredit your views

If you want your views not to get shut down so easily maybe try being easier to work with. That way I can't default to "ignore menalque he's being a dick" if you raise valid points.

[chennisden]

Gonna be fascinating to see how infinity tries to argue he’s not scum once I’m conftown

By the way if you die here it's nobody's fault but your own, so cut the act out, stat.

[chennisden]

good to be back.

Well that was a lie

[chennisden]

Now I remember why towngames are so freaking awful, thanks

[chennisden]

Actually I wouldn't even be enjoying this game if I were scum.

[chennisden]

Also, fucking own that shit instead of coming up with bullshit like “oh btw guys treat this as NAI but be nice <3 pls <3 look how reasonable I am compared to nasty >:( shouty Menalque!! Listen to me instead!!!! But it’s NAI btw”

I was shutting you down for being a dick, not because I wanted to discredit your views

If you want your views not to get shut down so easily maybe try being easier to work with. That way I can't default to "ignore menalque he's being a dick" if you raise valid points.

Yeah sure you were

chennis

That’s bullshit because you started trying to shut me down long before I ever started acting like a dick

From the *checks notes* moment I started pushing your scumbuddy infinity lmao

You used what was a perfectly reasonable point about koba having form on having no fucking idea how to read me (and it’s lowkey disgusting that they’re playing to oog reasons and against wincon) to freeze me and super out for “having bad vibes” or “something being off” and in turn you used that to discredit the push on infinity without having a good reason for doing so

Raising objections is not the same as shutting you down.

The "bad vibes" were

because

you were being actively toxic.

[chennisden]

Gonna be fascinating to see how infinity tries to argue he’s not scum once I’m conftown

By the way if you die here it's nobody's fault but your own, so cut the act out, stat.

Yes so scum!me has what incentive to act this way again?

And yet you’re still acting like I could be scum lmao

This is what I meant when I said you’re too competent to believe I’m really scum here

You’re scum, res ipsa loquitor

I dont particularly think you're scum, I'm just really annoyed at you right now.

[chennisden]

I may have misremembered and conflated you with Super, but the main point is I only started shutting you down when you started being actively toxic

[chennisden]

Please, tell me how you look good for knowingly voting town tomorrow lmao

Fuck you

[chennisden]

Go check who I'm voting before you keep up this brazenly sarcastic and condescending tone.

[chennisden]

If Koba is scum here - which I think is a possibility given the gamestate - you are handing the game to them on a fucking silver platter.

[chennisden]

The "bad vibes" were because you were being actively toxic.

This is just a lie

Find one post where I’d been actively toxic at that point

That didn’t start until well later,

and any toxicity I’ve had this game has been for the sake of my win condition

See the reason I said what I did, and the reason I stopped playing on this site, was because yall apparently think toxicity to win is okay. As if someone's outburst just doesn't count because they're scum. Or being a dick/manipulative (to an extent OUTSIDE what is normally expected) is OK as long as you're scum.

But okay, what if being a decent human being isn't one of your priorities? What if winning this irrelevant game in a fundamentally wack event is the one thing you want to accomplish in life? Then

being toxic loses you the game anyway

, regardless of alignment.

I don't care if you're scum or town here. Please make this game enjoyable for the rest of us, and if you can't, play at a different time.

Thank you.

[chennisden]

I may have misremembered and conflated you with Super, but the main point is I only started shutting you down when you started being actively toxic

That’s a lie

Do you think I'm so bad at scum I deliberately lie when in something provably wrong?

[chennisden]

Menalque you're one of my favorite players on this site but if you're going to be like this I'm going to have to ask you not to play this game.

[chennisden]

I'm also going to point out that mena's play is wildly unethical because there's no way he would be doing this as scum, so it basically makes him confirmed town, and he's aware of this, but I'm not complaining ig

I think it's wildly unethical regardless of alignment.

[chennisden]

Look I can't and I won't play the game until the thread chills for a bit

I don't even care about your alignments anymore. I do think winning is important, and I like winning. I'm pretty competitive and I think I'm somewhat okay at the game. But none of that holds an iota of importance to making the game fun to play. Complain all you want about how we're terrible, but I'd rather be the worst player at the best game than the best player at the worst game.

PEdit; Yeah I know nobody wants to be actively toxic. I've probably already crossed several lines already. But I think the first place to start is to acknowledge that other peoples' experiences, beliefs, thoughts, etc are valid, even if you think they're scum.

[chennisden]

V/LA until tomorrow

[chennisden]

Infernal take but I think it's possible super and menalque are both just town, and Koba is scum

[chennisden]

Titus also recommended a DKKoba flashwagon

[chennisden]

whats with the team mafia moderators putting in white/black flag setups btw. They are garbaggggeeeeee

im pretty sure a good majority of the players here only chose this setup cuz its the smallest one/compromise too and hate nightless.

trying to solve without nightkill analysis is hell for me

Chose this bc it was mountainous, open, and small

[chennisden]

Johnny do u have anything to say about being scum

[chennisden]

I am gonna miss super but probably better for her health she isn't in this game

Ditto

[chennisden]

Reminder to everyone involved: VOTE: johnny

[chennisden]

you have said Zero Things that feel not fake and surface level

that's why you're getting voted, not because of activity

[chennisden]

I think Auro could be scum but I'm not so certain about that. I really think Johnny is scum. I have my eye on Koba because it'd be scary af if they were scum.

I'm pretty confident on you and Flopz town, I also think Menalque and Super might be town

I have frighteningly little opinion on Lilith. FB also is a slot, I guess.

[chennisden]

you have said Zero Things that feel not fake and surface level

that's why you're getting voted, not because of activity

I feel like your confidence level has come and gone this game. Can I get a sense of where your thoughts are at and how they've changed since you were feeling unsure and looking at the keystone slots?

By the way I think the keystones from my pov are just Koba, Auro, Johnny now

[chennisden]

Before anyone asks "keystone" is just the word I chose for "slots I care about the most/think sorting will solve the rest of the game a la domino effect," and I don't want to say "slots I care about the most/think sorting will solve the rest of the game a la domino effect" every time

[chennisden]

Sorry everyone, I'm busy as fuck this weekend, so expect little from me

The slots I'm concerned about are Johnny Auro Koba Lilith in roughly that order

[chennisden]

We're actually searching for replacements because burnout and whatnot, so I'm weirdly the most active. Is there something in particular you want me to look at?

I'll take a look when i get home but can u just link me a scum game?

I've already seen ur town game so I don't need it.

boop

Chenn did you take a look at this game? I feel like there's some level of emotion/genuineness behind johnny's posts that doesn't exist in this game

I'm mostly not sure why you're so confident johnny is scum

I dont feel any emotion here

I'm

also

kind of shit at casing, but the way Johnny's been playing feels like the "I don't really care what town does" in a way different from apathetic town, the positions he's taking make a shit ton of sense if he's scum and Super/Menalque are town, etc

[chennisden]

Ok wtf this game is actually going to die

[chennisden]

Ok my concern on lilithz was because - I remember what she did around the Flopz wagon and if Im right on Flopz alignment then what Lilith has done around the slot is incredibly scummy

[chennisden]

Auro - I'm sorry if ur town I'm just rly paranoid abt ur slot because I still remember ur scumgame. If you're scum, which I think you are, idk, out your partners, pretty please?

Anyway the reason I don't like Auro is because every time he addressed my concerns on him, he did it

competently

, but always in a way that left me with a vague feeling of "something is wrong" - like there's something unresolved. Which is why I understood what Autumn meant early on when he said "Auro's doing the scum thing where he actually addresses each indiv point w/o addressing the actual content"

[chennisden]

If Super Menalque are town Koba just has high potential to be scum here

Granted I don't think they were pissing super off on purpose, but the way they deflected Super and shit feels like they're going for some vaguely

agenda

or something, and since scum agenda is usually just vaguely defined -- there's potential that slot is just scum??

[chennisden]

I actually dont rly townread a lot of ppl anymore ngl

I have mild concerns about FB, kinda Super, and kinda Menalque, but I think the last two can just be written off as town for now

Idk man my reads r flying all over the place

[chennisden]

Ok my concern on lilithz was because - I remember what she did around the Flopz wagon and if Im right on Flopz alignment then what Lilith has done around the slot is incredibly scummy

please explain

I felt like you were self aware enough to realize you had been kinda angling at Flopz, so you decided to address it early

I also felt like the whole "test" or whatever just wasn't very in good faith/genuine/etc? I dunno

[chennisden]

k i have bio notes due in like 2 hrs so I really should go soon

love yall, I wish we could've played under different circumstances, and if I wasn't going to quit again after this game I'd love to have played with you again

Wont be on much till the weekend is over because it's jam packed

[chennisden]

i was told ur a major lurksack as scum by teammates and theres also ~reasons~

do u have any opinion on at least a skim of anything? just like a little flash read helps sort u

I’m a major lurksack when I’m working until 2am most nights and weekends and my eyes hurt so much that I physically can’t look at a screen without tearing up

I coincidentally happened to roll scum like 6 times in a row after I became really busy at work

I skimmed like 20 pages that happened between Friday night and Saturday night and the one thing I retained was that I didn’t like flopz’ (and whoever he was talking to) foray into what seemed like irrelevant meta discussions. I don’t even remember if it was flopz or what was being discussed, I just remember disliking it because it didn’t seem like it was helping anyone on either side sort the other and so felt unnecessary. I think maybe the wagons being so evenly split is a sign that scum didn’t really care where the wagon was at that time, so potentially all wagons on town.

Spoiler: thoughts re: infinity/autumn

Feels like his early posts are focused on discussing townslips. At first I thought he was trying to explain that it was a true townslip from koba:

Feel like scum are more likely to notice that the setup is nightless

Koba, explain the vote

Depending on meta, it's NAI yeah

If you find something that scum is unlikely to think to fake, then it's towny

Or if they do analysis based on the mech mistake that seems very genuine

Etc

Lilith I like it when you post

PEdit: depends on what the specific slip is though.

but on the previous page he specifically asked koba if they fake townslips a lot:

no the townslip was real its me being town

Ok but you do fake townslips a lot right

so where exactly was this discussion on townslips going?? why keep discussing it if he thought koba would be a person who would try to fake it? how was continuing to talk about townslips going to help him sort anyone if he already knew/thought that it shouldn't be town-indicative of koba because koba would be someone who fakes slips?

Now this chain is getting messy. What message were you saying you didn't disagree with?

My initial question was in regard to your reaction to Super's post, whose post you were saying you did not like there. As it seems Super's post agreed with what you were saying in terms of Koba's bad (read as lack of) reasoning that you referenced in 129. So I wanted to know why you didn't like it?

This felt towny to me, like he's really putting in the effort to try and sort chenn

lol I said "meh" to myself, then clicked to the next page and saw myself post "meh." at least I'm consistent.. This post and flopz' post quoted in it just feel kinda underwhelming to me.

This is also how I won a lot of my scumgames when I still played. I didn't try to create bad vibes early on, I just let town do whatever they wanted, bantered, and tried to create "good vibes" (and made sure I was part of the "group.") I am concerned that this is happening to the game right now.

Hard agree with this take, I'm voting amph right now because I don't know who's scum inside the townbloc/activitybloc and I think amph is the most likely scum outside of it.

more "meh," I'm a bit underwhelmed again. I feel like not putting in effort to sort the "townbloc" even though you've stated you think there's scum in it is like... just such a "path of least resistance" especially with all of the suspicion on amy's slot at this point

Spoiler: thoughts re: chennis

Auro your posts feel purposeful to the point of being manipulative - I feel like you have an agenda that's too well-defined to be uninformed

Interesting, can you talk to me in specifics? Which posts of mine suggest I'm being manipulative?

Manipulative was probably the wrong word, agenda-driven is probably better. I guess what I'm trying to say is your posts seem to be subtly doing things.

33, 42 - trying to form a bloc

85 - justifying said bloc

106 - prematurely attempting to force someone to take the position of the opposition to said block

Also I don't know exactly why but "nobody here can read me well xD" gives me heebie jeebies

Even your jokey posts kind of feel purposeful. Maybe it's a "you" thing, I don't honestly remember after who knows how long, but by default I'd at least be suspicious of this behavior and call it out

I don't think I really agree with these characterizations of auro's posts even if I like the push on auro overall. In particular I wouldn't say that 106 was trying to force koba to oppose the block, and if anything was doing that it would have been auro asking if I scumread super. However, the timing of the push coincides with where I was starting to comment on auro's posts during my reread so I feel like maybe the right intent is still there.

so I woke up and had a discussion with shady and gira this morning about Koba and me wanting them to ISO them because I'm worried they could be scum refusing to change their read on me and it felt weird to me that they honestly don't TR me by now - shady made a good point in saying that a townblock of 4 town and 1 scum is game-winning for town. he said anyone inciting fear into a towncore is probably coming from a scum!mindset because scum literally have it harder than town this setup as they have to miselim 4 townies to win - meaning scum will NOT want there to be a townblock. having 1 deepwolf isn't a worry for us and Koba being hyper paranoid of me/inciting fear into my slot when they know good and well as town I'm very fucking towny is a worry because it DOES NOT MATTER to them if I'm scum if they're town because the townblock only needs 4 townies in it to win.

I don't think Koba is scum at this point and I want this to be known because I know this post is going to bug them

- shady is actually sending me his read on Koba's ISO as I'm typing this and he is saying he still townreads them but that they shouldn't be so wary of me when even if I am scum it doesn't matter cos you'd need two deepwolves this game to lose as town.

this makes me actually wary of Chen because they have been the one who has been inciting the most fear into the towncore which is something scum would be wanting to do since it is nightless - gira made a good point in saying that as scum you cannot allow an uncontested townbloc to form and pushing against people who would otherwise be universal townreads is >rand scum

It's a fair point that you don't need your bloc to be perfect, but I'm actually really wary of

you

because you've been the one trying to get people to blindly trust a towncore that is probably little better than random, which is something scum would want to do for obvious reasons

I have no reason to trust this towncore. I think super/fb are probably more likely town than not, but I do not want to start drawing boxes, and before you say "but chennis nobody was saying we should locktown X Y and Z," yeah that might be technically true, but is it really? Are we really approaching every slot with the due diligence it deserves or are we just too scared to break this tentative townblock? A townblock that can't survive scrutiny doesn't deserve to even exist.

I'm not calling for the "leaders" of the townblock to be lynched, I'm calling for the townblock to be

examined

. There's a major difference.

in general I feel like chennis has been kind of, vocally against the majority in a way that I think doesn't benefit him as scum very much, and I like this analysis and the general thought process here around questioning the.. staleness? of the gamestate in his following posts (eg 1231)

Spoiler: thoughts re: super

I'm not really sure what I think of Koba this game, Shady actually was saying that Koba's reasoning for townreading me felt like a genuine thought from Koba and Shady also liked Koba's initial vote on me because he thinks scum!Koba may have actually not voted me straight away after reading my post about them probably wanting to tunnel me this game (but Shady also said that Koba would probably wanna push me as scum cos they know pushing me makes me break as town/unable to form reads as town). I feel like Koba might actually be town now that I'm typing this cos I am thinking that if Koba was scum they probably would wanna push me hard so I had trouble reading other players in the game and getting reads. I do like how Koba thinks I can be towny as scum and only cracked at lylo though it's cute, but I flipped town so I'mma be towny all game

this is becoming a larger reads post cos you guys are actually posting a lot faster than I expected and just wanna out my thoughts before I go out for dinner

as I said before I think Lilith is town, they're coming across as very genuine in their interactions with Auro and Peta backed my read up on them up so I feel confident in this at the moment (things can change idk but right now I think they're pretty towny)

Firebringer is an interesting read for me lmao, early on I kinda tr their entrance of not liking black flag, cos Idk why mafia would wanna draw so much attention to themselves like this - I mentioned this to my teammates and Peta said that this is NAI for Firebringer because apparently they were complaining about this setup pre-game too so idk. I need to hear their reads out more to get a proper read on them but honestly I am slightly leaning town only cos their behaviour just feels... idk - them telling people they're trying to get paranoia on them, I dunno if they'd be like that as scum :S

Autumn I need to probably see more from I don't really know what to think

Auro I kinda felt were town but this is probably being influenced by their own read on me, but I felt like it was a genuine read and I like how they kinda jumped straight into scumhunting

others I haven't really read much, Chennis is a cute pichu thing who didn't understand my first question directed at them and when I responded it fkd up and I never actually went back to respond properly I should probably do that

I don't think I really like this post in retrospect, in light of super later backing off from townreading me. This post actually indicates a stronger tonal read on me than the read she had on fb and, once again, her townread disappeared at a really convenient time for reasons that I think are circumspect, because nothing about the original reason super listed for townreading me had changed, it was just my activity level. the other reads are kinda meh. Maybe I'm just a party pooper but the recent sorting and re-sorting of koba in thread is coming off as excessive possibly to the point of being performative

thoughts above are corroborated by super having me at the

top

of her readslist here:

i meant reads on everyone

ok from towniest to least i'd go

lilith
koba (this read makes me nervous though)
firebringer (breather? idr)
auro
autumn
chennis


idr who else is in the game cos i have a memory of a goldfish

oh there is amy (amph?) who I played a MU game with so that's exciting but I don't think she has posted yet

also I really dislike the townread on flopz but I don't think that's necessarily scum-indicative, I just strongly disagree with it maybe

here is my little reads list for today before others come back and post and add some content:

Town: Koba, Firebringer
Leaning town: Lilith,
Need to see more from: Amy, Johnny
On the fence: Auro, Flopz
Lower-tier/Null: Autumn/Chen

I don't exactly have any scumreads and I've downgraded a lot of people since my big ISO-bin because I think I'm townreading people too easily and I only want to focus on having REALLY strong townreads to be deserved to be 100% in my town pool - for example I read some stuff Autumn said as tonally good but it wasn't as strong as a read I have on others - same as Chen-Chen, the only reason they dropped is because their defensiveness to me weird ~strange~ and I don't like them inciting paranoia to a townbloc which imo is something scum would be doing this game - I do agree that we should be wary of a townbloc forming if it has two scum in it, it's always good to be careful but being continuously paranoid about it d1 is a strange thing for me to understand - we have 3 MLs we can use

Koba is just Town. I think their responses to me have been good and their wariness of me makes sense, I could go into a deep analysis of why they're town but meh I don't feel like it right now unless someone presses it.


Firebringer has felt Town to me most of the game because of their attitude/interactions with others, I started townreading them even more when they spouted a random thought of me potentially pocketing them but them just being OK with it. it'd be kinda lame to find out they are scum this game and I got pocketed by someone who hasn't really been producing the greatest reads ever but idk I just vibe with this slot a lot and if later on they ping me maybe I will re-evaluate this read.

Lilith I had a pretty early TR on for a post which gave off good tone but it dropped when I ISOd their slot and realised a lot of their effort was focused on Auro but they never came to any conclusions on that slot until now - I think their anger at me and read on me feels genuine and this points to them being town because of how much they fucking cared about my townread dissipating, idk if scum would be hyper focused on that and then go and say it was scummy of me - idk felt town indicative to be that annoyed about it. peta says her drop in content is worrying and the excuses are fakeable but he still town-leans her but says she needs to do more

Flops is a funny one because I had been townreading their approach and vibing with the way they were playing but my teammates have a different idea of this slot and kinda scumread them, hence why I'm on the fence and probably need to interact with them 1 v 1 more. they seem like a good player and someone who could very much sneak into a townbloc of some kind, peta thinks the extent in which he is citing teammates is excessive

Auro I had a early tr on for their read on me - idk why they'd try and pocket me so early on (literally in their first post) but yeah. peta thinks they feel a bit scummy and thinks they wander off into theotricals without taking any stances - plus 876 feels fencesitty to peta. another slot I'm on the fence about and need to 1 v 1

Amy I need to see more from and will probably try meta read her through the MU game we played - I have a feeling her lack of being here and playing a game is kinda towny tbh lol

Johnny I also need more from but peta says he is known to be very lurky as town and an easy miselim for scum, peta also thinks he doesn't sound like he is forcing content and liked their take on koba but not enough to town read him yet

Chen I had reasons to tr in my ISO and I probably need to look back over that - I kinda explained earlier why they dropped down for me and it's going to take a lot more for me to just TR a player, I'm gonna try being harder on myself anyways. peta said they have no idea what they think of chen but kinda townlean from their recent posts(?)

Autumn another slot I tonally tr a bit but yeah again, as I said, I don't know if that's enough for me to tr them fully - they did incite some paranoia on me but yeah idk what they means for them. peta says could be town but didn't really like 606.

peta told me not to say his reads cos they were just super vague and impressionistic but I posted some of them anyways cos they kinda help me since he knows you guys more than me

I basically TR koba/fb/lilith and everyone else needs to impress me with their towniness

pretty meh on this though, I'm struggling to distinguish between general sorting and vague fencesittiness though

Spoiler: thoughts re: auro

Intensity and aggression for why I like you.

Post 7 for the townread, especially the part about DkKoba.

For a self-branded scum tryhard, immediate antagonization of a player you're familiar with seems like an unusual strategy for scum. Or am I mistaken?

something about this post is still rubbing me the wrong way. I don't know what it is exactly but my initial reaction was to try to poke at Auro for it and I don't feel like that was a wrong instinct. I didn't really get anything satisfactory out of it but I feel like this post was really early for a townread on a super post that I was personally quite skeptical of, and it almost feels like buddying in retrospect. at least I don't think it's S/S.

what about the Koba part is a towntell? (I was honestly going to post the same thing regardless of my alignment about Koba so it was pre-planned fwiw)

Do you not consider my last paragraph in that post to be an explanation?

Noted re: you pre-planning it, if you know what I mean.

Firebringer will you like me less if I say I like mountainous nightless? :3

I don't think I like this either. Super gives Auro an explanation for her post that in my opinion should change his read but it doesn't and he barely reacts.

re: back and forth with me on "what would you do as scum." As I mentioned, I noticed later that he had actually answered my question in his first post so I missed it and thought he was deflecting my questions and kept hounding him. I stopped as soon as I realized but also feel like auro should have noticed himself that he had answered my question and that might actually make me feel worse about this conversation than if he hadn't answered the question and deflected me later

I got work to do :$ can't afford to sit refreshing MS all day. I'll usually have lower activity during the week.

Firebringer, I'm actually a little thrown off by your play tbh, it just feels unfamiliar. Your 1v1 with Chennisden (btw I figured how ya got that username Chennis, nice one) feels like a meme (love the rap battle btw) do you actually have something on him? Also you called my AL vote a good vote, mentioned your teammates scumread him, and also said you think he's scum: I'm wondering why you haven't pushed AL directly / voted for him so far?
Also 722 is not fully correct look at this game viewtopic.php?f=56&t=83407

DkKoba, you're pretty worried about my lurking while also continuously dodging my Q about Nancy's secret: mind answering? You

just

read my scumgames and I'm pretty much a hyperposter in those so asking me if I'm lurking because I'm "scared" is

I strongly disagree with takes on AL's opening being bad, fwiw I loved the poem. However I'm expecting AL to adopt a more aggressive inquisitive style right now after his recognition that something's off and said he'll talk to people to figure it out, but his posts in recent pages seem to be laid-back.

I like a lot of Flopz' takes and I also like Flopz, but I'm having a hard time forming a read on him :$

Johnny, can you tell me whether and how Chennis' posts after his attack on me have influenced your read on him? Do your reads from 264 look different now? (Especially interested in whether the "blind spots" have opened up)

I think I like this post more than I expected (which is to say: more than none), agree with points on infinity although not on.. maybe anyone else but I feel like at this point maybe that's a good sign

Spoiler: thoughts re: koba

I don't think I have good reasons to scumread them per se, but a lot of their positions seem like they are posturing to achieve certain things in the thread. Not necessarily scum-indicative, but it's not a playstyle that I agree with when it comes from town. For example, they insist that super might be scum and should not be townread and say that they have a gut feeling that super is scum, but then post things like this:

auro sees big paragraph from super: oh fuck this player is probably dangerous better pocket them

which doesn't mesh with the idea that super is scum. If they're scumreading auro then surely they don't think scum!auro is trying to "pocket" scum!super? I feel like this language belies the scumread/gutread on super that koba has been claiming to have.

can someone explain why amp is scummy cuz their entrance reads were beefy and that kinda player usually sorts itself in tbe long run
also i think chenn is also possible scum and i wanna addess that when im a few drinks in

I think this response is kind of weird considering all of the vagueness I found in the referenced post by amy. Just feels like they didn't bother to actually read the readslist and just saw a lot of words and went "ok." corresponding questions in the @koba section

my gut says flopz is scum and thats why theyre relying a lot on teammates to get "reads" rn. Flopz, what are YOUR personal reads rn?

decent take/followup on this post I think, and it lines up with where I'm at on flopz as well

VOTE: flopz

okay good vote

Spoiler: thoughts re: amy (ampharos)

mmmmmmmmokay, we got enough of a game on our hands that I'm comfortable doing a quick sort

==lean v==

lilith

- Simply put, I think she's been asking the right sorts of questions, and showing the proper amount of care and followup towards said questions. It's easy for scum to just fire off some nonsense questions to try to blend in... but the fact that she's hounding people for answers and seems to be legitimately considering them and following up pretty strongly indicates town to me.

dkkoba

- honestly mostly vibes. I tried to find a concrete thing I could point to but I honestly just think the way they're navigating the thread rn is town-indicative. This is the type of read that always seems to wind up biting me in the ass somewhere down the line but that's future Amy's problem, heh

Super

- This one's cheating because I'm extremely susceptible to people who know how to write more than two sentences in a post, but I think I agree with her assessment that she should be a fairly easily townread (off my whopping sample size of one game lmao) and I'm feelin' it here.

==also kinda lean v but weaker i guess? tiers are fake anyways==

chennisden

- I noted #156 as being a read I thought was towny - I don't think it's necessarily a GOOD read here, but I think it's the type that comes from town more often than not.

Auro

- seems comfortable in-thread, in a villagery sort of way.

==danger zone!==

Firebringer

- Seems to be the sort of poster I always have trouble drawing a bead on, but I feel like the schtick felt a little forced early on, and I feel like his game-relevant contributions have been... easy, I guess? The most against-the-grain thing he's done, as far as I can tell, is locking Auro town, and if he's scum that seems like an easy TMI to make? Just based on the sort of poster Auro seems to be.

Autumn Leaves

(or Infinity, or whoever) - Approach feels somewhat cagey, and if Firebringer is town then I like this slot's posting about koba's "slip" a hell of a lot less - I think there's a tendency for scum to legitimately want to call things townslips if the person doing them is town, and I think that sharing such a thought is an easy way to contribute to the thread without much effort (obviously koba would ALSO have to be town here, but that's not something I'm super concerned about rn). I specify Firebringer being town in this scenario primarily due to the way Firebringer talks about this slot later on - namely, throwing a lot of shade and supporting votes in a way that I don't think is w/w.

===========

that's probably everyone who's posted, I think

I do seem to be on the outside looking in wrt meta stuff - I've got one game with Super, but it was a hydra game, and I've got one game with Auro (and maybe lilith? or maybe I made that up) as part of a THREE-headed hydra and I honestly couldn't tell you whose posts were whose for that one, so I'm not counting it. Kinda refreshing tbh - means I have to rely a lot more on actual analysis than I usually do, especially d1.

VOTE: Autumn Leaves

I initially didn't like this post
on reread I was okay with where the reads were position-wise
on second reread I still didn't like the post though

I'm probably not going to be able to explain this one properly but like, the reads themselves seem fine, they seem to be not crazy far out of lef field, so what on earth is my brain ringing alarm bells for? I should be happy that amy's reads are reasonable.. right????? and my conclusion is that it's something about the way she expresses the reads that doesn't sit right with me, and similar to what chennis was saying recently, these are kinda like,

safe

reads... ie easy for scum to make when looking at the gamestate at that time. and I don't think anything here is particularly unfakeable as scum. the townreads section is.. quite vague and I came away from this post with no idea of the specific things people had done to make amy townread them or like examples of where she thought they were towny. the scumreads section is also quite vague and I'm not very satisfied with the explanations on both infinity and fb which seem to be very conditional and then she voted infinity without explaining why she preferred infinity over fb (which by her written conditions in her reads, implies she thinks fb is more likely to be town?). I also feel like town!amy in the one game I've seen her in was a lot more specific/analytical than this, so while I hesitate to use meta as a sole argument for scumreading, I think more specificity is within her townrange and have yet to see it.

Spoiler: thoughts re: flopz

don't really understand the townreads on this slot, I feel like a lot of their posts follow a very similar pattern of looking like they have content but not really saying much. For example:

Back to my reads, Lilith- Don't disagree with what they were saying to AL or really what they were saying with Auro.

119/120 - fire/lilith is weird, not sure how either would not know that Team Mafia means working with your team, it's kind of in the name.

188 - fortunately that term is mainly relegated to Zoomers so most people don't use it and I am always grateful for that.

I like their challenges to Autumn about the whole townslips/scumslips thingie

almost none of this is AI, the comments don't say anything about what he thinks my alignment is based on the linked post, and just like.... how is this post even contributing to moving the game forward?

other posts (ie 387, 395): remembered correctly earlier, I disliked this kind of derailing into meta discussion on infinity, it feels super tangential and again not like it's really trying to move the game forward. He basically drops this train of thought entirely and I don't see any sign of reads having been furthered as a result of the discussion.

more posts that I feel like are not really doing much to further the gamestate and all seem pretty surface-level in terms of the questions, and therefore fakeable:

FireBringer – aka Firb

Town

-

#439 lol I kinda love how FB just does not give a shit that their posts aren’t very game-solvey or useful/they’re just kinda memeing – a lot of their posts overall are just filler tbh but for some reason I just really don’t see scum being like this at all. I don’t know FB and I don’t know if they are like this as scum but their tone and the way they are playing kinda fits in with how I think this person would play if they were in a setup they hated and were also town lmao

Thanks for doing a readslist, I feel like there are too many players trying to coast here and some effortposting is always good to see.

I wanted to ask you more about your fire read, I recently subscribed to a "Charging at coasters/lurkers" newsletter so am looking for the juiciest target atm. Why does doing nothing strike you as so Townie, like I can understand the aloofness, showing they don't care about the game as much which is arguably a more townie mindset but is that enough for you to rate them so high when they really haven't exactly done much else?

Btw, to link a post, you just type in the number of the post, highlight it and then click to post button on the right side of the preview screen (near the smilies).

as a fellow spammer

Can you give me some things to work with lad, I don't want this game to devolve into more pulling teeth then it has already. Who do you think are acting the most scummy atm? Also have your views changed on AL changed?

Johnny, I just went through your ISO and you're basically just screaming Null. I need

moooooooore

.

Can you throw a cheeky bit of substance my way.

Are you still SRing Chen and Koba or have those changed now? Also, what's your view on the others you haven't talked about yet, it's interesting that you don't have a view on AL or Auro yet so would like to explore that further.

Woah, also congrats on the kid. Missed that the last time I saw your posts.

Looking through the posts after I went to bed yesterday, I think I'm reasonably comfortable with a TownKoba read.

Koba seems to be continuing their "I'm right, I have all the answers and I'm not sharing them with anyone, everyone else is below me" shtick which everyone whose had the pleasure to play with them will know and love. This is a nightless game Koba, please actually work with us and not try to solve the game on your own becuase that doesn't help anyone.

I would like to ask is if anyone else has experience with their scum-game and if there are any differences in play-style becuase from what I've seen this looks the same to their previous town game with me.

and this jfc

have not had time to sit down and write replies/thoughts since last night, planning to do that tomorrow

Hi Lilith, so is this going to happen today or are you saying you're too busy?

god I could quote his whole damn ISO. I'm just going to stop here because this seems like not a good use of post space. but his whole ISO is just this very surface-level stuff that doesn't really try to sort anyone imo

sorry I know this is getting excessive but just like, every single time I see flopz show up in the thread I'm like "damn I need to quote this to point to a really low-effort/fakeable/surface-level/non-game-solving post" and then I remember I already have probably too many examples but just wtf is this ISO. I'm on page 30 and I have yet to see a post from flopz that I'd consider town-indicative.

Spoiler: thoughts re: fb

Coolio, so have your AL reads changed or do you still think that they are a bit scummy? (I'm ref 227)

my autumn leaves read is about at same state as was before. yeah.

What exactly is you Autumn read as I think that's the only comment you've made about them and that's not excatly giving much info

I think autumn leaves is scum. I thought their entrance and interaction with lilith was how he would go about it as scum trying to pocket her. That initial vibe hasn't died but it is quelled in that he hasn't done anything directly that makes me think he is working for townreads or appease anyone, but at same time i think well maybe his alignment dependent on if lilith is scum or town and i want to get a good read there.

On the one hand I really like this post
On the other I'm frankly shocked that fb has made a content-ful post that I agree with and think is good and am possibly slightly alarmed by it because I don't know that I was expecting to ever see eye-to-eye with fb on mafia things
Some of my team members have agreed that we like fb and we like fb's posts but have no idea what that means for his alignment. same with:

i really do have a scum read on chennis. I need to case him so u all see what im seeing. Initially the push was memey but i think i posted "ohh i believe he really is scum" and it was at that point i really bought into the chennisden scum thing.

If you wanna do this now I'm all ears

ohh let me give u the short version before i give long version:
short version is i think chennisden is exceptionally wooden for whaat he has posted. I think he has holding back emotions and got some passive aggressive when it came to me earlier in game, i tought he was being exceptionally strange in our 1v1 and i think he knew what he wanted out of that cause there was nothing he was doing to progress a read.

look at his post of 156; at tht point i think he waas trying to give too much on a read to say he had a read when he didn't haave anything. In other words tried harder to put words to postings to justify read when nothing existed. and when he dove more into it 174 i don't feel he believes u were scum originally or his interaction screams he is talking to an actual scumread.

look at his interaction with me. first few posts in this game he talked about me like he disliked me (he says he reads me by annoyance level with me); that pretty much was non-existent in our little tiff and he backed of easily. Now could u say he was just holding back, sure, its just i don't think he had any intention of using that to read me. I think he got stuck into a reactionary omgus, didn't know how to progress with that omgus because he couldn't find anything to do push or angle to take it, decided "fuck it. ill just say im joking don't care" and left it. Like it was easy to do that, and then he pretends like he had balls to do something in which he showed no courage or conviction to do while saying he was like doing something out of ordinary for someone to do.

and finally, quick summary of where I think I am in terms of reads:

infinity/autumn: probscum, don't like recent "oh let me reevaluate the townbloc, super might be scum" stuff without seeming to put in much effort to reevaluate
chennis: like his vocal dissent, think it's not scum-indicative
super: ???? fucking paranoid
auro: probably town I think based on similar thoughts on infinity but not very strong read
koba: probably town but I want to scumread them but it's probably only because I didn't like their approach to me and I'm kind of trusting some other reads on this one
amy: null
flopz: scum please burn with fire
fb: ???????? who the fuck knows
johnny: null

VOTE: flopz let's kill it with fire thanks

I don't really disagree with the vote itself but super and infinity are both townreading flopz and I'm just like ?????????????????

i went thru and skimmed your iso real quick and this is all the "baiting" you did. it seems kind of disingenuous to imply (but not

really imply

) flopz is scum because of this, when like... i dont even think anyone, scum probably included, remembered this happened at all

I honestly cry a bit at every flopz post and if he’s town, I’m struggling to see why

n o o n e

is pushing him

and this kinda screams tmi

[chennisden]

auro i literally have no idea why ur voting johnny rn

maybe we just hold of on the game till replacements fill slots?

actually this would be great for me

ok, this is actually my last post, i seriously need to not fail school rn

[chennisden]

@chennis so you think lilith is bussing flopz..?

no, i think flopz is town, and i think lilith's behavior around the slot has been weird

[chennisden]

I think flopz is town..................

ok, thank you for making that clear

[chennisden]

If she’s not bussing him then how could she be TMIing him

scum can still TMI town??? like scum can have awkward interactions w/ non scum ppl who they're trying to do whatever with

[chennisden]

anyway lilith im actually not interested in doing you today, and im actually feeling cooler towards johnny

[chennisden]

perhaps TMI was the wrong descriptor - what i meant to get across was "this feels very contrived to get a Thing done"

[chennisden]

anyway lilith im actually not interested in doing you today, and im actually feeling cooler towards johnny

my auro murder engine is revving up again

[chennisden]

auro has been allowed to slinker away by this game and i dont actually think anyone remembers the last thing auro did.

(hint: it was voting johnny for like, no explanation)

[chennisden]

auro has been allowed to slinker away by this game and i dont actually think anyone remembers the last thing auro did.

(hint: it was voting johnny for like, no explanation)

auro lives in a different time zone. He posts all the time when ur not here. This is really reaally bad.

Im not implying he's not posting (also my sleep schedule is so fucked so I actually am around for a few hrs when he's posting).

[chennisden]

Also, firebringer, have you considered that

(1) your previous top TR very hard agreed with me that infinity is scum

And (2) if you think I’m scum and want me dead/diminished in terms of presence and you think I’m pushing a town wagon, one of the best ways to discredit me is to support said wagon, let it flip town and then point out that I deathtunnelled a town slot all of D1

The best way to discredit you is to not give you what you want

[chennisden]

Wtf Menalque you know what Firebringer is saying is right

[chennisden]

Nobody thinks scum you is just gonna die after we let things go /your way/

[chennisden]

Also even if ur town ur not just gonna go and say "welp guess I was wrong time to not get what I want anymore." Thats not how mafia works

[chennisden]

Yah, I’m aware, I’m saying that if you’re convinced it’s scum!me and that scum!me is pushing town then it becomes *easier* to elim scum!me once that is confirmed

Whereas if infinity!scum then I think I’m basically confirmed town

Or you can just die for being scum if you're scum?? I dont get it

[chennisden]

Menalque you're literally arguing "come at me tomorrow" when you know full well that if anyone's gonna come at you it's gonna be today

[chennisden]

Tbf though, it is different today because today all you can do is say “oh Mena is scum he’s doing scummy things” whereas tomorrow you’d actually be able to say “hey Mena is now /confirmed/ to have been pushing town all day”

You can say "firebringer is scum for knowing infinity was town and voting him"

Back to square one.

Depends on if you think that argument would fly or not *shrug*

But it would be p scummy of me to make it when I’ve explicitly said that infinity being town would prompt me to re-evaluate the whole game

And to then go “oh no lol, I was basically right after all, fb is just scum, follow me again everyone?”

People have short memories. This is how I won scumgames.

[chennisden]

Menalque you're literally arguing "come at me tomorrow" when you know full well that if anyone's gonna come at you it's gonna be today

Huh

What?

You're claiming that if we really think you're scum we should test your theory about Infinity scum.

I don't think you're scum, first off, and if I did I would try to eliminate you today. Because as far as I can see there has been no serious attempt to eliminate you that actually got traction.

[chennisden]

I mean what this looks like to me is that both of you are absolutely desperate to *not* test my “infinity is scum” theory

I mean I think he's town and I'd rather not lose a town with nothing to show for it.

[chennisden]

Have you considered from our pov that Infinity is probably town and if you mislim him today we get absolutely nothing

We dont learn anything or have any reason to reconsider the game, or at least on my side.

This isnt to say "Infinity elim is absolutely impossible how COULD YOU not let ME play the game," but these are factors that I'd appreciate you

account for

[chennisden]

I basically see where he's coming from with most of his posts. If you feel like "oh but those posts were EASY for him to make as scum" or something then idk, I guess you're right, but given the state of the thread in the last few days idk what you could even expect from any slot in the game.

Btw this is why ate is just bad for the game. Because it lowers the threshold of play

[chennisden]

Btw I dont actually factor in ate to my reads because 1) its bullshit and I'm not parsing any of it and 2) scum are people too. They can get mad at the game if they feel its unfair

[chennisden]

what u reading mena town for chennisden

i dont think he does this kind of thing as scum here. dont think scum would scream "ME ME ME" like this

Infinity could be trying to mindmeld with lilith/chenn by trying to mimic train of thoughts aand get them pocketed. Which makes his soft distance push against me makes sense because he knows 1) i won't push him for doing that, and 2) he knows pocketting me means he needs to just give takes i will think are controversial

What an interesting twist.

this world is kind of possible.

[chennisden]

i dont think he does this kind of thing as scum here. dont think scum would scream "ME ME ME" like this

This is a pretty good reason to townread me actually and more understanding than anyone has showed of the distinctions between my scumgame and my towngame in a

while

I mean, that doesn’t make you town, but kudos anyway

ur scumread on me is literally because ur annoyed at me

[chennisden]

I basically see where he's coming from with most of his posts.

You can see where he’s coming from in deciding to treat a slot in bad faith from the moment it replaces and why when pushed on why he’s treating said slot in bad faith his reasoning was “because I have such a strong scumread there” which when asked to substantiate why that scumread was

so

strong that if justified deviation from his normal behaviour of treating even his scumreads in good faith, he couldn’t explain beyond “gut”?

I also believe I’m still waiting for a response on this, chennis

I'm not going to respond to a loaded question.

[chennisden]

When I say "I dont think X would do this as scum" I don't mean they aren't

capable

of it, just that it would make little sense for them to do that --

even accounting for WIFOM spam or whatever

. That is how I felt about Autumn's take on you, Menalque.

Quick question how has my take on Johnny not been any more "random" than that? And why haven't you called it out? We both know what the answer is: because Johnny is not your slot, and you're giving your slot a lot more weight in this game than I think you should.

[chennisden]

perhaps TMI was the wrong descriptor - what i meant to get across was "this feels very contrived to get a Thing done"

okay I mean the Thing I was trying to get Done was to see if anyone would join a flopz wagon for dubious reasons.. I feel like this can be appropriately called baiting?? therefore it seems like your concern with me is both that I baited and that I didn’t bait hard enough

I do want to come back to this chennis, I know you “aren’t interested in me” but I’m now concerned your read on me is fake

@chennis

oh hi

[chennisden]

ok, this feeling is a lot weaker now, but i still do think my read on you was justified and not conjured out of thin air

[chennisden]

you were townreading flopz, you say. but wuere? and your "reaction test" or wtv feels rly convenient to me still. i still think ur posts look like u were genuinely scumreading flopz then

[chennisden]

I am more open to voting Autumn because my townread on them has basically dissipated.

[chennisden]

Auro and Johnny are in my "would like to eliminate" pool. Flopz(less so now, but I still think he's town) Super/joqiza slot and Menalque(?) are in my "would not like to kill" pool. Everyone else I literally don't know enough to have an opinion on

[chennisden]

And there is no “maybe” it’s in one side or the other and if you waffle put it in would elim. You’ll be happier for it

You can put my "don't care" people in your mental model of "chennis would elim" if you want to. I am not comfortable making that distinction yet.

[chennisden]

You win when the town have been reduced to three members or less.

This here is inherently the scum’s wincon. How we win is we have a block of four that has at most one scum in it. This forces scum to amp up their game. Everyone here should have no excuse. With that being said going to make dinner and get to reading some of this.

Townblocs are worth nothing if they're shit, and any townblock we try to make is gonna suck

[chennisden]

Why do you say any town block we make is gonna suck?

Because of the last [page number] of pages.

[chennisden]

If you want a serious answer its because the gamestate is so distorted that forming concrete opinions and approaching the game off of them w/o any info is only going to do us more harm than good.

[chennisden]

The first answer was more serious than you think it was, by the way.

[chennisden]

chennisden its weird how much we agree this game and yet i still think ur scum

Funny how I think the same

[chennisden]

Basically it struck me that I couldn’t really remember anything you’d done all game? Other than ask questions, but I don’t really remember you ever pushing your own ideas as opposed to sheeping things

Yeah that's fair and I think someone else had the same critique as well.

I got burnt from Mafia playing super aggressively and obsessively and that was the reason I took a long break. It's stressful and I want to have fun. >.> Trying to take it more chill now. I think I'm doing a great job avoiding refreshing MS *all day*

same, this was the reason I stopped playing, sucked up too much ENERGY

How do you guys feel about voting Chen instead?

lets do it man

His actions are pretty clearly suited to get him to live. I don't believe the posts about him being fine with getting yeeted in order to prove X or Y is scum or town.

The way I see it it's very difficult to back out and retaliate against people if they're wagoning you after *you* propose "elim me then trust X elim Y". I made a similar proposition last year in WF as well.

My take on these kind of deals isn't that it really means anything wrt alignment (I just wish ppl would stop doing it, to be honest), because I don't think it's really a meaningful proposition regardless of alignment. The way I see it, such a deal is either disingenuous or serious - and I can't actually decide which is worse.

Auro, I get that you like to argue, but what exactly are you trying to achieve here? Mena probably isn't getting eliminated today, and fire has already said he's not changing his mind.

@Chenn Why is your TR on me gone?

Basically its because I've had to justify it less to other ppl over time, so I kinda have just been feeling it less strongly

This is true for every read I had in the game, btw, I've just been finding it hard to get emotionally invested in it.

[chennisden]

There's

so much more value

in unifying town as opposed to individually just pushing your pet elimination and trying to out-shout the rest.

Let's try not using buzzwords like "unify town" and actually assess the results. I feel like what you're proposing here would do that - let the loudest players intimidate everyone else into submission

[chennisden]

I don't mean to suggest you are deliberately doing this, regardless of your alignment.

[chennisden]

P(Town|Serious) is high.

And that's what concerns me; it isn't a

good

proposition.

And if 4+ townread players are able to align their reads and generate meaningful wagons I wouldn't be as bothered that they would "intimidating everyone else into submission", I'd much rather prefer that to everyone just voting wherever, "compromising" on some read at the end of the day and achieving nothing of substance.

This was a good response, thanks for being willing to work with me even if we mutually dislike each other's

slots

. Although I might add that "4+ townread players" kind of doesn't exist at this state of the game.

[chennisden]

Playing mafia isn’t cooking or solving a math problem

Also, the easiest way to get the answer to a math problem is copying the work of the kid who’s (1) good at maths and (2) you know is good because there’s proof of it

Wolfram Alpha thinks it is the best way, and I would be inclined to agree.

[chennisden]

Playing mafia isn’t cooking or solving a math problem

Also, the easiest way to get the answer to a math problem is copying the work of the kid who’s (1) good at maths and (2) you know is good because there’s proof of it

Wolfram Alpha thinks it is the best way, and I would be inclined to agree.

Now there's no analogy here but I just had to say this

[chennisden]

Btw if I'm scum do I really take the time to actually try and align everyone w/ influence against me

I think that's a really simple question to answer

[chennisden]

When I'm scum one of my biggest priorities is not to die and when I'm town it's much lower on the list of things I care about

I think sorting me w/ that mindset will make it a lot easier.

[chennisden]

It's ultimately up to you if you want to actually take what I say at face value, because I think I am good enough at scum to error correct like this, and I also don't lie about stuff like this as either alignment because tone blah

But even w/ WIFOM in mind I'd be playing so terribly as scum that I don't think it's reasonable to believe I am. At least I haven't seen any reason for it in the last... 50 pages?

[chennisden]

would like for johnny to say something before we eject.

[chennisden]

Auro what do you think of fb again?

By play, townread -> vibing with him, plus his defusing of unhealthy tension in the game. Also I read his mild AtE regarding the pointlessness of talking to Lilith towny.

Don't think him being reasonable is him being town -- I think he'd try to diffuse unhealthy tension regardless of alignment.

[chennisden]

You don’t have a reliable “good at maths” kid

*Raises hand* Just let me

integrate

into the town block.

Haha. I will put you in the dont elim pile today.

This joke will be quite

derivative

of Auro's

[chennisden]

new attack on titan released gonna watch and sleep; cya auro

good priorities

While I'm not against this wagon, Johnny is second on my POE, I'm not the biggest fan of Chenn starting the wagon and I'm worried that on a Town-flip, people are just gonna push Infinity again. It is quite curious that with all the shade that's been applied Chenn hasn't really got voted and I'd rather a lim there.

thats because i scare the votes away

also this implies you read infinity as town, so can you explain why

koba’s playstyle is audacious so I don’t see why chainsawing infinity couldn’t be a thing. they did that in legends.

why mathblade > infinity now? after I just joined the wagon too .o.

Honestly he’s just annoying me more than infinity is at this point

I don’t really wanna do johnny tho, I just wanted to see if there would be any panic unvotes from anyone who knew he’d flip town

why would scum "panic unvote" him? wouldnt scum be more likely to hang on just in case?

[chennisden]

Flashwagoning mathblade would also be fun

Keeping me around would be fun

[chennisden]

Flashwagoning mathblade would also be fun

Keeping me around would be fun

Keeping everyone around would be fun. Think we’d probably lose though. Why are you saying such spammy shit?

That's like asking why the sky is blue, I was born to spam

[chennisden]

This game seems really hard to play w/ all the replace outs at this point

[chennisden]

It's not helping that I'm having trouble making the mental connection of who replaced into what slot

Now I really have like, no reads

[chennisden]

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I think it's not very likely it comes from a place of scum

[chennisden]

Unless I'm right about Johnny AND he's trying to prevent his death real hard, which just means I care about Johnny going first either way

[chennisden]

I agree with the sentiment. Again the only reason I am not hammering is to read and if I have questions I can poke around, but it’s really no issue if Johnny is hammered now.

Let's give Shirou time to parse the game.

[chennisden]

Funny that my gut instinct is the opposite.

Scum can have no plan, and in such an indecisive and uncertain atmosphere, I'd be surprised if they

did

.

[chennisden]

If there's a deepwolf my money would be on Koba/Mathblade slot.

[chennisden]

I think MathBlade has given reason to be townread though

[chennisden]

DKKoba scumplay in the Epic Mafia game I saw is legit just shading/hedging on slots for their lack of contribution or etc.

Coincidentally...exactly what the slot did here. Not once DKKoba actually hard pushed anyone with a good degree of investment, it was just a circlejerk of calling the consensus suspects scum/voting them out, and going back to say "Super you're scum but I'm not gonna fight you because Black Flag".

I'm quite a bit astonished people write all of this off just because "It looks unplanned/spontaneous so it must be town".

That's exactly why I just spam post as scum if I'm tryharding because people think that going along with the flow in-thread is a lot harder than it actually is as long as you're a naturally spammy player.

huge upvote for this

i think we're in a spammy enough lobby where everyone can just naturally spam as scum, so tonereads are basically worthless

[chennisden]

I don't understand how I'm supposed to scumread koba for something that

Don't in that case to be fair

I think I've come off as more confrontational than intended because up to page 55, DK is almost a consensus town read and it did bother me a bit.

Controversial but I don't have any intention on trying to make everyone change their minds on DK slot or anything, I'm playing this very casually/chill

I'm gonna just do my catch-up, say my reads and sit here open to voting consensus if it comes to that.

I know, being open to vote consensus doesn't sound good but I'm just exhausted of the usual route my games take really. Last Team Mafia was me 24/7 burning myself out by screaming for town to lim 3 players, which 2/3 were scum, and it was mentally draining to me.

I don't really care too much about this game compared to what I used to care, I'm here mostly to give my opinion and have fun.

In fact, if we're objectively speaking, DK has high chance of being town here/me being wrong when the people that knows them the most are town reading them, but I've just become a bit of a bitter person when it comes to "I know X meta" because in my experience it has rarely ever worked out.

ah that game. what a disaster

ended up replacing out mid-night because i got sick of it and got nightkilled the same night lmao

[chennisden]

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I lied and I care now

In a world where Johnny is town it's possible he's scum pushing me to set me up after Johnny flips town, because I think it'd be pretty easy to do so

[chennisden]

I think a haiku
is a more appropriate
answer to this post

[chennisden]

I take it back:

I may or may not read DK town games to give my thoughts on it. No promisses. Hm.

This sounds more workable, I like to post-pone things.

probably better things to do w/ your time even if you want to sweat

[chennisden]

I mean obviously we’re all thinking about it because we were in the game with koba, but I don’t really care for math’s posts either. maybe playstyle thing but he spends so much time arguing about things that don’t help anyone sort anyone

Maybe tangentially related but I don't think I have really read the Mathblade/Menalque argument about the townblock

[chennisden]

No I'm the most arrogant player in this site Menalque, you better take that back right now

[chennisden]

As scum I legit turn off my brain the more the game goes on, because most of the effort has been put into early game, late-game mostly consist of parroting the same stances and playing around the blocks that form.

Only my opinion though, I think most people think the opposite.

Same, the game is more stagnant then

[chennisden]

I was about to say "let's revive the rap battle" then I realized

[chennisden]

Flopz

Ok my tr on flopz is like entirely evaporated now

[chennisden]

Unrelated but I also do not have any reason to suspect lilith is scum anymore either

[chennisden]

wait, I just realized I only need 4 correct town reads to win this game?

That...

that sounds kinda townsided but I'm not gonna complain

I think Lilith/Super are town so I only need two more.

I can see Super being scum by the way, but I couldn't find any instance of Super going as hard on AtE as she did here with Koba, especially considering I expect her to replace out later in the game due to conflict.

I may take back my Super read after reading her replace out but at the moment I guess I only need 2 other town reads...

I'm accepting bribing propositions by the way.

if u townread me i will challenge menalque to a rap battle

[chennisden]

I feel like you will get to me town correctly unless you start having excessive paranoia

I'm gonna be honest, take in consideration I may change this as I read more, but if someone came to me and said "gun to your head, who do you take to endgame as townblock?"

I would say Lilith/Super/Chennis/Mena, and if I'm wrong on someone it's probably only one which means we still win?

I can be easily be wrong on someone there though, especially given I haven't read much of your posts. But the way you're talking to me, talking about DK, your stance on the gamestate which is voting math, etc.

It just feels town.

alright menalque my bribe was accepted, u ready to go?

[chennisden]

yo where's JOHNNY

[chennisden]

chennisden - dunno
JohnnyFarrar - lower than average poster
Flopz - lower than average poster(as scum at least)
Auro - dunno
Lilith2013 - lower than average poster (busy irl)
Infinity 324 - average poster, can be hyperposter but rarely.
Ampharos - dunno
Super - spammer supreme
Firebringer - average??
DkKoba - depends on the PL/setup/how i wanna approach the game

super infernal take but what if koba/johnny/flopz is literally the team lmao

[chennisden]

ur not gonna like it when i throw shade on lilith then (:

[chennisden]

if u townread me i will challenge menalque to a rap battle

Now this is a story all about how,
My life got flipped turned upside down,
Let me take a minute just sit at the bar,
And let me tell you how I became last year’s Rising Star

Mafiascum(dot)net born and raised,
The open queue’s where I spent most of my days,
Chillin out, maxin’, relaxin’ all sweet,
And formin some townblocs — man, we had ‘em beat

When a couple of scumfucks who were up to no good
Started making trouble in main thread and neighbourhoods
I got in one little fight and the team got scared,
Said we gotta shoot this guy N1 he’s a regular Voltaire
Started making

When I roll scum
I'm a goodfella
Rolling towns all over
I'm just playing betta'
But now I'm town
And I'm just a goodspamma'
Blowing up this game
Postin' without a plan, ya

And people think I'm scum,
For a variety of reasons
But in the face of logic,
none of them are pleasin'
You think you can get me killed?
Challenge my spammer skill?
Or will you just accept
That you'll get caught instead?

[chennisden]

super infernal take but what if koba/johnny/flopz is literally the team lmao

Then killing johnny first is still good, no?

Yes

[chennisden]

If I'm wrong though I think it's Flopz

[chennisden]

ur not gonna like it when i throw shade on lilith then (:

??

I "shaded" lilith a while ago I think

[chennisden]

I know nobody asked me but my opinion on Shirou is that he would probably roll me and Menalque here if he's scum

Also worth noting in 3563 he asked Menalque specifically, though I'm not sure what that means

[chennisden]

I think he's town but I also think he would roll me as scum

[chennisden]

@Mena 3519 feels like how I would sow paranoia/shade on a slot if scum, and then shirou says he's sus of people who shade lilith.

??? There's a dozen better ways to do it and I think he knows all dozen of them

Don't think this is it

[chennisden]

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I think it's not very likely it comes from a place of scum

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I lied and I care now

In a world where Johnny is town it's possible he's scum pushing me to set me up after Johnny flips town, because I think it'd be pretty easy to do so

Flopz

Ok my tr on flopz is like entirely evaporated now

So what changed becuase I was voting you before there was a Johnny wagon and I've made my reasons for not joining the wagon pretty clear i.e you leading this wagon makes me wary that Johnny is in fact town even if he's second in my poe. Not too long ago I was one of your biggest Townreads so this is quite the jump.

If it helps it's because a) I'm running out of scumreads and b) it's because of what joqiza pointed out

It's not really your play between then and now that has anything to do with it here. It was just me reevaluating.

[chennisden]

Fwiw I think Johnny is more likely to be scum than you here. And I also think you town him scum is possible.

[chennisden]

No because it's led by my biggest scumread

Are you sure Chen's "leading" it? Sure he was the first vote but I don't certainly wouldn't say he's leading that wagon...

Pedit: yes, you talked about it, but I'm evaluating the lack of vote either way by itself

The fact that he's the first vote on the wagon makes me feel wary

This btw is exactly what I would do here as scum if I were in his position

[chennisden]

Fwiw I think Johnny is more likely to be scum than you here. And I also think you town him scum is possible.

I'm feeling a whole lotta shade from you and Auro rn, it feels like you are trying to position against me on a Johnny town flip. So what would you do on a Johnny scum flip?

Look at mathblade slot

[chennisden]

no particular order in same row

jqoiza menalque shirou
lilith autumn
auro mathblade
johnny flopz

[chennisden]

Sure but then hammer

This day has already almost gone 150 pages and we were outposting the normal before the incident, and we have 30 more pages than the large theme

It's very impressive seeing people replace in and read the entire game btw

Im so sorry for anyone reading my spam

[chennisden]

no particular order in same row

jqoiza menalque shirou
lilith autumn
auro mathblade
johnny flopz

okay i feel like being petty right now, one of your major set of actions this game has been to try to prevent townblocing of all the loud people and scumreading all the lhf... but your readslist is basically doing what you said we shouldn’t

fwiw i think johnny is actually scum, and not just lhf here. autumn is lhf here. auro and mathblade are lower than what their activity would suggest.

cant argue with the top tier though

[chennisden]

We survive for today
And solve tomorrow's problems some other day

[chennisden]

okay i feel like being petty right now, one of your major set of actions this game has been to try to prevent townblocing of all the loud people and scumreading all the lhf... but your readslist is basically doing what you said we shouldn’t

That's a reason I lost my scumread on him actually, all that posturing against townblocking would need to have a payoff to be beneficial, otherwise just makes it harder for him to avoid being pushed

is the payoff not that we spent an extra ~100 pages arguing, super and koba got in shitfights, and super replaced out? among other things?

Is this insinuating that my posturing against the townblock was enough to cause this? Because I think that stuff happened on its own

[chennisden]

okay abr is permabanned

I’m pretty sure it’s against the rules to communicate about these games outside of your MS-ordained PT and discord server

So you’re just.... casually accusing shirou and team of breaking rules by conversing with a permabanned user to get ahead in a game?

I think he means that ABR left instructions in their discord or PT for Shirou to do that

Which is ridiculous, obviously, given that ABR was a profoundly average scumplayer while Shirou is one of the absolute best on site

According to my team Discord, average is a profoundly generous descriptor.

[chennisden]

Titus says (paraphrased) "He's toxic to his teammates then wonders why he always dies day 1 in most of his scumgames" (about ABR) lmao

[chennisden]

or said, I suppose

[chennisden]

And why do you say that Scum!Shiro wouldn’t consider anyone a threat here?

A good scum identifies the biggest risk to them winning them game and tries to eliminate them ASAP.

I am an known/unknown player presenting an optimal strategy the majority of players have hopped on to.

Why would I not be a threat if this methodology continues and Shirou is forced to that?

Because if shiro is scum he's pocketed me and Menalque and has enough force of presence to completely wipe the game

[chennisden]

And "mechanical" speculation would not be enough to stop that

[chennisden]

Oh I thought we had a night phase

We have a NON GAME BREAK phase

[chennisden]

Yall should just wait for shirou to finish

[chennisden]

Yea Johnny is just scum trolling at this point

[chennisden]

if I'm right I'm obviously the best mafia player in the world but if I'm wrong can u really blame me for scumreading him

[chennisden]

717 bussssssssssssssssssssted

[chennisden]

I mean I know this sounds confbiasy but there's a difference between town resigned to die and scum resigned to die

[chennisden]

Specifically if I was town Johnny here and I didn't care about the game and I knew I was going to die soon, I would

still

at least throw some shade at "chennisden" because said slot has been throwing shade and indirectly pushing the wagon for a while

[chennisden]

There's no "sorry guys i mean i know i cant do anything and i havent read but im town and ya i kinda think chennis is scum"

He's just clammed up to avoid giving any more information at this point

[chennisden]

Actually out of curiosity what happens if we dont elim before deadline

[chennisden]

cute wifom

[chennisden]

One of my teammates wanted to ask the thread if there's anyone who knew johnny wasn't hammered earlier

Me neither

[chennisden]

[chennisden]

Anyone on right now?

VOTE: Auro

good vote

[chennisden]

chen I keep listening to that audio clip trying to figure out what the last part is but I can't understand it lmao

Wtf I googled the song and got completely screwed over by google

[chennisden]

Let's try again

[chennisden]

I think killing everyone offwagon probably wins the game

[chennisden]

i actually cannot believe that i parked my vote on scum the entire time.

guess im just CRACKED yo

[chennisden]

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I think it's not very likely it comes from a place of scum

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I lied and I care now

In a world where Johnny is town it's possible he's scum pushing me to set me up after Johnny flips town, because I think it'd be pretty easy to do so

Flopz

Ok my tr on flopz is like entirely evaporated now

So what changed becuase I was voting you before there was a Johnny wagon and I've made my reasons for not joining the wagon pretty clear i.e you leading this wagon makes me wary that Johnny is in fact town even if he's second in my poe. Not too long ago I was one of your biggest Townreads so this is quite the jump.

If it helps it's because a) I'm running out of scumreads and b) it's because of what joqiza pointed out

It's not really your play between then and now that has anything to do with it here. It was just me reevaluating.

Sorry this was kind of disingenuous

I exaggerated this a little because I wanted to see how people would react to it. I think the way Auro reacted to it is pretty damning.

[chennisden]

wdym damning for auro @chennis?

i think his vote on flopz there at a time when johnny was being run up was probably because he was hoping there'd be a chance the wagon would move to flopz instead of johnny

[chennisden]

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I think it's not very likely it comes from a place of scum

chenn you seem pretty chill about the fact Flopz is hard tunneling you rn

I lied and I care now

In a world where Johnny is town it's possible he's scum pushing me to set me up after Johnny flips town, because I think it'd be pretty easy to do so

Flopz

Ok my tr on flopz is like entirely evaporated now

So what changed becuase I was voting you before there was a Johnny wagon and I've made my reasons for not joining the wagon pretty clear i.e you leading this wagon makes me wary that Johnny is in fact town even if he's second in my poe. Not too long ago I was one of your biggest Townreads so this is quite the jump.

If it helps it's because a) I'm running out of scumreads and b) it's because of what joqiza pointed out

It's not really your play between then and now that has anything to do with it here. It was just me reevaluating.

Sorry this was kind of disingenuous

I exaggerated this a little because I wanted to see how people would react to it. I think the way Auro reacted to it is pretty damning.

To be clear I don't think Flopz isn't scum, the stuff I said about running out of scumreads was true

Think one of Auro/Flopz wins

[chennisden]

i think his vote on flopz there at a time when johnny was being run up was probably because he was hoping there'd be a chance the wagon would move to flopz instead of johnny

Well, yes, I was not really fond of a Johnny elim felt very meh and bandwagon-y to me.

yeah because you didnt want CHENNIS catching your PARTNER

[chennisden]

yeah because you didnt want CHENNIS catching your PARTNER

Again, for funsies' sake, in that hypothetical who would I prefer catching my partner Johnny?

maybe yourself, for the towncred u know

but really anyone BUT CHENNIS

[chennisden]

happy birthday shirou

[chennisden]

If Flopz was scum was he really thinking he could diverge off a Johnny wagon onto Chennis...?

If he doesn't do it then he's, in plain english, "totally screwed"

[chennisden]

I think killing everyone offwagon probably wins the game

meme courtesy of SS

auro and flopz offwagon qed

[chennisden]

man ok

i want to reread the game around the point where johnny wagon gets traction, except i forgot where that was

would someone like to help an incompetent chennis

[chennisden]

[quote="In post 4074, Auro"][/quote]
Without me in this game a Johnny lim wasn't actually very likely.

I know it sounds egotistical but I also think that if my slot went along with one of the many wagons that just popped up along the day, said wagon would've went through

[chennisden]

At the time I started pushing Johnny name one slot I would've been confident enough to pull off 4 mislims in a row with

[chennisden]

Without me in this game a Johnny lim wasn't actually very likely.

I know it sounds egotistical but I also think that if my slot went along with one of the many wagons that just popped up along the day, said wagon would've went through

What the heck ms