TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[lilith2013]

infinity didn’t you think fb was town?

[lilith2013]

wow what?!??

[lilith2013]

oh it’s because shirou unvoted

[lilith2013]

I still want hammer and personally I think we should end the day asap, and also johnny is probably not going to show up again. What do you think you’re going to get out of him, shirou?

[lilith2013]

I know I’m getting apathetic without a flip and my play/game is only going to get worse the longer we wait. I don’t think anything is going to really make me townread johnny enough to not want to kill him unless people are willing to do, like, a mathblade wagon.

[lilith2013]

Okay. I’d like to hear what this thing is at some point (either after he responds or if he doesn’t come back)

[lilith2013]

i would like to request hammer still

@shirou still pretty stressed out, although my workload is supposed to lighten after this week (but that’s what they said last week so who knows, really). ty for concern

[lilith2013]

is it hammer time????

[lilith2013]

One of my teammates wanted to ask the thread if there's anyone who knew johnny wasn't hammered earlier

I did not

[lilith2013]

I was debating waiting for a pagetop

[lilith2013]

VOTE: johnny

[lilith2013]

thanks for the setup

[lilith2013]

I can’t really imagine scum!shirou here closing off all avenues of miselims

[lilith2013]

JohnnyFarrar - scum

[lilith2013]

I would like to repost this both as a reminder of my limerick prowess and as a note if johnny flips scum

SS has also written a limerick about Johnny which I have also paraphrased as my own limerick.

When asked to give thoughts he declined
Except that he death didn’t mind
So bad’s his reaction
He’s bussed by his faction!
His partners on wagon we’ll find.

[lilith2013]

sorry I’m not really paying attention to my phone too much/not sure how much longer I will be here

[lilith2013]

wdym damning for auro @chennis?

[lilith2013]

I think killing everyone offwagon probably wins the game

meme courtesy of SS

[lilith2013]

shirou happy bday!

[lilith2013]

ok legit please describe how I could be scum, you’ve just been trying to discredit townreads on me for most of this game and have put like 0 effort into solving me???

[lilith2013]

@shirou

back to game-related content: I think auro has decent chance of being scum regardless of what infinity flips

[lilith2013]

@shirou

back to game-related content: I think auro has decent chance of being scum regardless of what infinity flips

Also: This is dishonest. 3276 was based off a misunderstanding of what one of my posts was responding to, and she later walked back on that after I pointed it out.
Shirou's own argument for scum!Auro from town!Lilith's pov was that I'm uniquely attacking her. Having a momentary scumread of me for incorrect/discarded rationale is not supportive of having held Shirou's belief previously.

I mentioned shortly after that I had other reasons (ie had previously had similar thoughts) but could not articulate them at the time.

[lilith2013]

look auro, the extent of your interaction with me seems to be that you pop in to throw shade on me whenever I’m being townread, without offering an actual opinion on what you think my alignment is

[lilith2013]

I really doubt that there were no scum on johnny’s wagon

[lilith2013]

an actual opinion on what you think my alignment is

Scumz [precedence to AL]. I'll be disappointed if town just goes Auro->Flopz->AL->Chennis and the game ends with a scum win.

please provide reasons.

[lilith2013]

I really doubt that there were no scum on johnny’s wagon

Even if there was scum in the wagon, I do believe that in your pov it would be likely Mena or AL?

Since Mena / AL aren't likely partners together, one scum at least should still be off-wagon Auro/Flopz.

I guess you could count Math, but I don't think Johnny/DK is SvS at the moment.

sure - out of the two I probably prefer auro, although I haven’t really parsed what the reasoning on flopz has been over the last few pages

[lilith2013]

your comfort with killing Johnny and ending the day I find suspect.

??? because I said I was getting apathetic?? you think I lied in order to push the wagon through and gain towncred I didn’t need?

[lilith2013]

w o r k

[lilith2013]

what do you mean by “more focused on townbloc talk”

[lilith2013]

i have 0 brain power for thinking or casing as i’ve repeatedly said; i’m in no danger of being nightkilled before i can put reasons together; and my overall attitude was “wait and see if I feel like it’s actually worth pursuing or not a real reason to scumread someone”

[lilith2013]

I just find your positioning around Johnny incongruent with your lack of scumhunting-investment, with more excitement / intent to push through than one would with simple apathy.

I’m not sure what this means. I clearly stated I just wanted the day to end and I wasn’t townreading Johnny. Not sure how these are incongruent.

[lilith2013]

also would like to note that as soon as Johnny posted after the vc, my team and I simultaneously went “JOHNNY MUST BE SCUM RIGHT?!?! following the thread but didn’t post until after the vc?!?!” I obviously wasn’t sure but like.... again, 0 reasons to townread, I thought he was possibly scum based on the timing of the post, want the day to be over and don’t see a better wagon - I don’t understand how these are “too strong” of reasons as you seem to be implying..

[lilith2013]

@auro if you believe I’m scum, then why aren’t you arguing with shirou about that part of his game-winning strategy, when it’s dependent on my being town, and instead focusing on AL, whose alignment doesn’t particularly matter unless you think AL/mena is SvS?

[lilith2013]

:thonk:

[lilith2013]

the point of the strategy is that we aren’t supposed to eliminate AL, regardless of alignment, unless you think AL vs mena is SvS. Why are you arguing so hard about infinity’s alignment now? he isn’t in the line of elims.

[lilith2013]

I would expect if you actually believed me to be scum, that your primary reason for disagreeing with shirou’s strategy would be

my

alignment, not infinity’s - but you’ve been focusing on disagreeing with the infinity piece of his strategy.

[lilith2013]

auro, have you considered that everyone else in this game is townreading me? do you believe me to be such a godtier scum player that I would be able to fool the entire town over a 160+ page game, including people who know how I play scum and multiple replacements?

[lilith2013]

now fmpov in order to think you are town, I have to believe that you believe I’m capable of such a thing - but you yourself have observed my scumgame and pointed out its flaws. Can you explain why you think this game is possibly in the realm of my scumgame in light of those observations? Do you believe that my play has been surface level and that my questions don’t go anywhere?

[lilith2013]

I would expect if you actually believed me to be scum, that your primary reason for disagreeing with shirou’s strategy would be

my

alignment, not infinity’s - but you’ve been focusing on disagreeing with the infinity piece of his strategy.

[lilith2013]

also would like to note that as soon as Johnny posted after the vc, my team and I simultaneously went “JOHNNY MUST BE SCUM RIGHT?!?! following the thread but didn’t post until after the vc?!?!” I obviously wasn’t sure but like.... again, 0 reasons to townread, I thought he was possibly scum based on the timing of the post, want the day to be over and don’t see a better wagon - I don’t understand how these are “too strong” of reasons as you seem to be implying..

[lilith2013]

No, I would objectively case why Lilith is a godtier scum player if she turns out to be scum here

I'll even give a quick example of something

The fact that Lilith focus now is questioning Auro inconsistencies but not immediately voting would be very good scum play in my opinion. Lilith simply could engage me and get me to say for her to sheep me, or she could act indignant in Auro still scum reading her and insta-vote, but instead she still seems to be trying to sort him to solidify her mind.

I don't think that much of my scum game, but if I was scum here, I wouldn't have that patience at all of perfectly replicating cautious town process. I would just vote Auro and work from the point of accusing him in most cases, although I do the same quick votes as town so I guess it's NAI to me, but still I think in many angles Lilith is playing an amazing scum game if she's scum.

now I wish I was scum so this would be true

[lilith2013]

now fmpov in order to think you are town, I have to believe that you believe I’m capable of such a thing - but you yourself have observed my scumgame and pointed out its flaws. Can you explain why you think this game is possibly in the realm of my scumgame in light of those observations? Do you believe that my play has been surface level and that my questions don’t go anywhere?

I know you know my then-observations on your then-scumplay and I'm very sure you'd avoid doing the same (that particular tell was "flurry of questions not followed up upon"). I do think your play has been surfacey and your scumhunting has been lacklustre, but on a much subtler level.

okay please describe then

I feel like I’ve adequately explained any “lacklustre” or “surfacey” moments by my work schedule. So what makes you believe that any of these moments are better explained by my being scum than my being busy?

[lilith2013]

@auro here is my response to that

also would like to note that as soon as Johnny posted after the vc, my team and I simultaneously went “JOHNNY MUST BE SCUM RIGHT?!?! following the thread but didn’t post until after the vc?!?!” I obviously wasn’t sure but like.... again, 0 reasons to townread, I thought he was possibly scum based on the timing of the post, want the day to be over and don’t see a better wagon - I don’t understand how these are “too strong” of reasons as you seem to be implying..

[lilith2013]

If you think I was bussing Johnny, then what’s your explanation for me voting infinity yesterday when johnny was at E-1?

[lilith2013]

@auro here is my response to that

also would like to note that as soon as Johnny posted after the vc, my team and I simultaneously went “JOHNNY MUST BE SCUM RIGHT?!?! following the thread but didn’t post until after the vc?!?!” I obviously wasn’t sure but like.... again, 0 reasons to townread, I thought he was possibly scum based on the timing of the post, want the day to be over and don’t see a better wagon - I don’t understand how these are “too strong” of reasons as you seem to be implying..

I am not talking about post Johnny's wolfing after the VC, I'm talking till the context of when you, Mena and I were conversing about voting/hammering Johnny.

again - so you think I was trying to bus Johnny? How do you believe I expected to get towncred without stating reasons for joining the wagon?

[lilith2013]

no but it will help me sort you

[lilith2013]

what exactly will help you sort me if you think engaging with me directly won’t? at this point I’m pretty doubtful that you actually intend to sort me at all.

[lilith2013]

And yet you’ve somehow managed to “sort” me incorrectly here

[lilith2013]

Have you not been able to do that in the prior 167 pages?

[lilith2013]

And yet you’ve somehow managed to “sort” me incorrectly here

and again, you’ve come to an incorrect conclusion on my alignment. so either you’re not as good at reading me as you’ve professed, or you’re scum

[lilith2013]

please show what about my engagements you think have been insufficient then

[lilith2013]

I legitimately do not understand where your read is coming from.

Why do you think that I must have some “sufficient level” of engagement in order to be town? How have my posts not “scumhunted” enough? Is this some general bar of towniness or specific to me as a player?

[lilith2013]

question for you, auro: would you say this interaction with you is “sufficiently scumhunting”?

[lilith2013]

it's been pretty clear that I was scumreading math, and personally I would flip math over flopz. why are you asking me this? this isn't a strategy that I proposed. how is this helping you to sort me?

[lilith2013]

You play that way as town, and it's specific to you as a player.

I'll just quote myself here.

sidenote I really dislike that I’m being BoPed here because like, I should be able to have a towngame where I can’t be as active as I typically am and not get immediately scumread for it

[lilith2013]

inactivity has directly led to me not being able to read and engage with large parts of the game.

what reasons do you have to think that this is something I always do as town? what reasons do you have to think that this is sufficiently different from other towngames such that it is more plausible to be a scumgame than a towngame?

[lilith2013]

again, it matters to me. I don't think your reasons for scumreading me are real; I think your intentions towards my slot since the beginning of D1 have been mostly to try to prevent me from being townread; I think your argument against shirou's proposed plan is distorted because you are trying to argue that the plan is contingent on infinity being scum and voicing your disagreement of it, but his alignment just does not matter because he's not on the table, and that if you were actually scumreading me you would be trying to convince others why this plan will not work and the reason would be because

I

am scum, and not that infinity

isn't

; I think what you're trying to argue is so mismatched to what shirou is actually saying because you're scum; and you seem more interested in trying to put me on the table for elimination in future days than actually discussing whether the plan will work.

[lilith2013]

if we go back to D1, I think it's suspicious that you would try to prevent townreads on me at multiple points without saying that you think I'm scummy, or without a qualification like "well the method of reading her isn't really valid but I think she's town anyway," which makes me think that the sole or primary purpose of you bringing up those things was to discredit and prevent me from being townread, not to make sure that I was being sorted correctly. This is what I mean by "you haven't expressed your own read at me while you were doing it."

[lilith2013]

This is a bit of a tertiary point but I’ve felt all game that your posts have been like, “surface level towny” but I think I struggle to really see the genuine thoughts behind them. I’ve held off on mentioning this because I haven’t had the chance to compile a set of posts that I think demonstrates my feelings, but I already vaguely referenced this as a reason that I thought you had a decent chance of flipping scum.

[lilith2013]

If you think AL is town and I’m the only objectionable player in the current bloc in shirou’s plan, I don’t think it actually even matters, because you wouldn’t need to eliminate scum!me to win if you’re able to find my partner. So: who’s my partner, auro?

[lilith2013]

Shirou has clarified that he has no plan for {Auro->Flopz} not ending the game, and my arguments pertain to that universe.

okay still not sure what purpose asking me this question serves

Yes, I have been discrediting townreads on you - and I am now.

You’ve completely missed my point, which is that you’re discrediting townreads on me just to discredit them, and not to actually encourage me to be sorted correctly.

I am interested in putting you on the table for elimination in LimLo or LimLo-1.

I could give less hoots about your own read on me when I'm allowing my lim today anyway - if you're town it should be important to you that I retract my scumread on you before I flip, and I already said that direct engagement with me on my scumread of you doesn't matter. If you're going to use this as reasoning to be content voting me, go ahead, but I'll continue advocating for your elim at LimLo(-1).

Not really sure why I would care about you retracting a scumread since 1) I think you’re scum, and 2) I haven’t been eliminated as town for a

very

long time for a reason - I’m obvtown. I don’t think you’re this wilfully blind to this as town so my conclusion is that you’re scum.

why would you advocate for my elimination and not the person you think my partner is? I don’t think it’s that much of an exaggeration to say that I would be among the most difficult slots to get an elimination on this game.

[lilith2013]

do we have someone here on datisi!team who can get him to tell me how to link imgflip images again

reporting for duty

[lilith2013]

VOTE: auro

[lilith2013]

@auro

why would you advocate for my elimination and not the person you think my partner is? I don’t think it’s that much of an exaggeration to say that I would be among the most difficult slots to get an elimination on this game.

unless you think my partner is even less killable than me, which would necessitate either the townbloc having 2 scum in it or shirou being my partner and at that point you should have even more to say about the plan being bad (which you don’t), what point is there in coming after me and not my partner, who should be easier to kill?

[lilith2013]

can we hurry up and put auro at l-1 so he’s forced to reveal who his partner is so I can point out more flaws in his reasoning for coming after me first ty

[lilith2013]

so he’s forced to reveal who he thinks my partner is**

[lilith2013]

That’s how I normally hide as scum.

No way math could be scum, who is his partner?

Requiring a solve when we only need one to win is silly.

we’re not requiring a solve, auro’s arguments just make 0 sense

[lilith2013]

Who exactly is Lilith partner anyway?

And that is what I'll be hunting for today *insert smile emoji*

didn’t you imply you already had a partner for me

[lilith2013]

ah yes I think this is an appropriate time for this

[lilith2013]

His reasoning makes no sense if he’s town

I’ll take the liberty of quoting myself for a TLDR of how I feel about auro

Spoiler:

again, it matters to me. I don't think your reasons for scumreading me are real; I think your intentions towards my slot since the beginning of D1 have been mostly to try to prevent me from being townread; I think your argument against shirou's proposed plan is distorted because you are trying to argue that the plan is contingent on infinity being scum and voicing your disagreement of it, but his alignment just does not matter because he's not on the table, and that if you were actually scumreading me you would be trying to convince others why this plan will not work and the reason would be because

I

am scum, and not that infinity

isn't

; I think what you're trying to argue is so mismatched to what shirou is actually saying because you're scum; and you seem more interested in trying to put me on the table for elimination in future days than actually discussing whether the plan will work.

if we go back to D1, I think it's suspicious that you would try to prevent townreads on me at multiple points without saying that you think I'm scummy, or without a qualification like "well the method of reading her isn't really valid but I think she's town anyway," which makes me think that the sole or primary purpose of you bringing up those things was to discredit and prevent me from being townread, not to make sure that I was being sorted correctly. This is what I mean by "you haven't expressed your own read at me while you were doing it."

This is a bit of a tertiary point but I’ve felt all game that your posts have been like, “surface level towny” but I think I struggle to really see the genuine thoughts behind them. I’ve held off on mentioning this because I haven’t had the chance to compile a set of posts that I think demonstrates my feelings, but I already vaguely referenced this as a reason that I thought you had a decent chance of flipping scum.

If you think AL is town and I’m the only objectionable player in the current bloc in shirou’s plan, I don’t think it actually even matters, because you wouldn’t need to eliminate scum!me to win if you’re able to find my partner. So: who’s my partner, auro?

[lilith2013]

Lilith understands my push on her - she's just popping into the thread to discredit it and rush an elim on me before I get it into everyone's heads to suspect her after my flip.

I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again - I actually don’t understand your push on me.

Your reasoning for thinking I’m scum-motivated makes no sense
Your reasoning for trying to push me over whoever you think my partner is makes no sense unless my partner is even more unkillable than I am
If you think I’m more killable than my partner, then you should be arguing against shirou’s plan because there would be multiple scum in the bloc
Regardless, if you believe I’m scum you should be arguing against shirou’s plan, and you should be arguing that it won’t work because I’m scum, not because of infinity’s alignment

I think town!auro is reasonable and I don’t think any of the above is reasonable. I think your read on me is fake.

[lilith2013]

that should about sum it up. I feel like I’m just repeating myself at this point but auro doesn’t seem to want to listen because he’s already dEcIdEd LiLiTh Is ScUm

[lilith2013]

she's just popping into the thread to discredit it

Careful, I might call you out for plagiarizing the words I used to describe you

[lilith2013]

auro, if you’re scum, congrats for successfully tilting me

if you’re town, perhaps you should realize that I won’t play the same way in every game and not having the mental capacity to “perform” to your standards does not mean I’m scum????????

[lilith2013]

again - you have yet to show how or why this is both true and scum-indicative

[lilith2013]

Like Joqiza, Chennis, AL they're all talking about various things apart from {Auro!scum} and I'm basically just OK with my own lim and asking you to engage with anything else to allow me to correct my read of you if I'm wrong, and instead you just continue to pop in to call my reasoning bad and that I'm scum. I've already outlined how I'd like to correct a potentially wrong sort on you and you just ignored it, and you're continuing to attack me, why act surprised that my read isn't changing?

and I don’t particularly care what you want. I have been trying to sort you but you have given me no reason to think you are coming from a genuine place. I think you’re scum so of course I’m going to try to get you eliminated, how is that scummy? why should I care what your read on me is?

[lilith2013]

I thought infinity was casing scum!mena, what happened to that

[lilith2013]

@joqiza @lili I would like to know where your heads are both at tho

I don’t think infinity is town
I think shirou is maybe town but am probably pretty hard pocketed regardless of alignment. I think your earlier assessment of eliminating shirou if his plan doesn’t work is probably the right way to handle his slot.

also, guess who came second in his blitz tournament? hype!

idk what that is but congrats

[lilith2013]

would eliminate today: infinity, auro, math
would not eliminate today: shirou, mena, joqiza, flopz, chennis

[lilith2013]

my team has talked me back from gunning for auro 100% today, I think his read on me is still awful but I’m no longer 100% convinced that it’s because he’s scum. It’s still an awful read but whatever.

[lilith2013]

SS said that 4443 is exactly how he would expect scum to react

didn’t mena already vote shirou?

[lilith2013]

mena are you still scumreading math?

[lilith2013]

[lilith2013]

I would never. I’m just incredibly peeved that auro’s bad read on me is rubbing off on people