TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless
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Auro Survivor
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People townreading you is irrelevant to me unless they can make a convincing case that you're town, which I haven't seen yet.-
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Auro Survivor
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"Black Flag Nightless" with 3 free town lims before LyLo and multiple lhf slots that I am beginning to suspect are town~In post 4152, chennisden wrote:And I, with my ability to outspam any player in said game, just prevented them from limming me, and all this WITHOUT giving into town consensus and just voting the easiest slot to survive-
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Auro Survivor
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There is no strategy for Auro->Flopz townflips, though?In post 4157, lilith2013 wrote:In post 4134, lilith2013 wrote:I would expect if you actually believed me to be scum, that your primary reason for disagreeing with shirou’s strategy would bemyalignment, not infinity’s - but you’ve been focusing on disagreeing with the infinity piece of his strategy.
I'm just arguing for Lilith!lim precedence in any universe.-
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Auro Survivor
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I know you know my then-observations on your then-scumplay and I'm very sure you'd avoid doing the same (that particular tell was "flurry of questions not followed up upon"). I do think your play has been surfacey and your scumhunting has been lacklustre, but on a much subtler level.In post 4156, lilith2013 wrote:now fmpov in order to think you are town, I have to believe that you believe I’m capable of such a thing - but you yourself have observed my scumgame and pointed out its flaws. Can you explain why you think this game is possibly in the realm of my scumgame in light of those observations? Do you believe that my play has been surface level and that my questions don’t go anywhere?-
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Before any further questions about what part of the "strategy" I'm misplacing my focus on, I'd like to hear the strategy for {Auro->Flopz universe}.In post 4160, Auro wrote:There is no strategy for Auro->Flopz townflips, though?-
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Auro Survivor
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Hmm maybe I should stop hunting and just focus on having more posts than Chennis-
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And we have different opinions on the alignment it indicates, apparentlyIn post 4171, chennisden wrote:fwiw before Shirou subbed in Lilith was the one who really entertained the Johnny scumread and didnt let it fade from collective town consciousness-
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Auro Survivor
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I empathize with the work schedule and I've accounted for that. It was the incongruence with your pushes on Johnny. You had to opportunity to do this when you were talking about other things like the townblock, too, so I don't think being busy should excuse everything?In post 4172, lilith2013 wrote:I feel like I’ve adequately explained any “lacklustre” or “surfacey” moments by my work schedule. So what makes you believe that any of these moments are better explained by my being scum than my being busy?-
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Auro Survivor
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Yeah I wish scum in general would play with more enthusiasm [inb4 someone says I'm talking about Johnny ]In post 4174, Shirou wrote:Most people don't seem to enjoy or put that much effort into being scum, therefore although it's arguably not that difficult, in practice it's rarer to encounter those kind of behaviors because scum often just get greedy, impatient, low-effort etc.-
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I am not talking about post Johnny's wolfing after the VC, I'm talking till the context of when you, Mena and I were conversing about voting/hammering Johnny.In post 4178, lilith2013 wrote:@auro here is my response to thatIn post 4163, lilith2013 wrote:In post 4109, lilith2013 wrote:also would like to note that as soon as Johnny posted after the vc, my team and I simultaneously went “JOHNNY MUST BE SCUM RIGHT?!?! following the thread but didn’t post until after the vc?!?!” I obviously wasn’t sure but like.... again, 0 reasons to townread, I thought he was possibly scum based on the timing of the post, want the day to be over and don’t see a better wagon - I don’t understand how these are “too strong” of reasons as you seem to be implying..-
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Auro Survivor
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@Lilith I think your time is better spent engaging/hunting within other slots and telling me your plan for Auro->Flopz not ending the game~ As much as I love arguing, engaging with me about my scumread on you is not beneficial as it won't individually help me sort your slot anyway.-
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It was not a vote leading away from Johnny? Pushing *very* aggressively on Johnny would make the bus clearer too, when AL was not an obvious "not elim" option.In post 4182, lilith2013 wrote:If you think I was bussing Johnny, then what’s your explanation for me voting infinity yesterday when johnny was at E-1?
If you're town I don't think you can gain a strong enough townread on me that would prevent my elim, thus time is better spent elsewhere.lilith2013 wrote:no but it will help me sort you-
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Auro Survivor
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I was able to sort you in that game (where I commented on your tell of throwing out a flurry of meaningless questions) without even being in the game, sooooooooIn post 4186, lilith2013 wrote:what exactly will help you sort me if you think engaging with me directly won’t? at this point I’m pretty doubtful that you actually intend to sort me at all.-
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Auro Survivor
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Not all scumhunting techniques require direct engagement, and sometimes direct engagement can work *against* your efforts to read someone when they're competent at responding and carrying out conversations~-
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So I want to see that I am incorrect via observing your play this game outside your engagement with me, and that's what I'm asking you to do, no?In post 4191, lilith2013 wrote:And yet you’ve somehow managed to “sort” me incorrectly here-
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That's leaving me at "Lilith is scum" so far?In post 4193, lilith2013 wrote:Have you not been able to do that in the prior 167 pages?-
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Auro Survivor
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Like, you've been busy and that's why you couldn't engage with a lot of slots, sure.
I feel like overall given whatever presence you've had your engagements were still insufficient and make you likelier scum.
I am open to correcting my read today if you can cross that bar for sufficiency.-
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When did I profess to being "good" at reading you? I said I was able to sort you as a spectator to demonstrate that lack of interest in continuous direct engagement is not an implication of lack of sorting. Your work is a confounding factor. You have today.In post 4195, lilith2013 wrote:so either you’re not as good at reading me as you’ve professed, or you’re scum-
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The lack of them focused *scumhunting* engagements are what I'm talking about.In post 4197, lilith2013 wrote:please show what about my engagements you think have been insufficient then-
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You play that way as town, and it's specific to you as a player.In post 4200, lilith2013 wrote:I legitimately do not understand where your read is coming from.
Why do you think that I must have some “sufficient level” of engagement in order to be town? How have my posts not “scumhunted” enough? Is this some general bar of towniness or specific to me as a player?Please tell me your strategy for {AL->Flopz!town universe}.
No. "Scumhunting" me is unimportant when I'm taking the El anyway, and given your weaker-but-unarticulated reasoning on my being scum there is little reason to believe this engagement will help you sort me no matter the outcome - much less where this engagement does not damage my scumread on you anyway.In post 4201, lilith2013 wrote:question for you, auro: would you say this interaction with you is “sufficiently scumhunting”?
Yeah not an invalid method, but can sometimes have incorrect conclusionsIn post 4202, chennisden wrote:
Wow, this just describes the way I feel about your slotIn post 4190, Auro wrote:Not all scumhunting techniques require direct engagement, and sometimes direct engagement can work *against* your efforts to read someone when they're competent at responding and carrying out conversations~-
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I'd like to see your engagement with those slots.In post 4205, lilith2013 wrote:how is this helping you to sort me?-
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Auro Survivor
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And calling it an immediate scumread "because activity" would be incorrect.-
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Remind me to ask Menalque a certain question before the day ends-
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Because you do have activity and engagement, just that it's not the type I expect.In post 4210, lilith2013 wrote:inactivity has directly led to me not being able to read and engage with large parts of the game.
what reasons do you have to think that this is something I always do as town? what reasons do you have to think that this is sufficiently different from other towngames such that it is more plausible to be a scumgame than a towngame?
Anyway - doesn't matter.-
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Auro Survivor
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Shirou has clarified that he has no plan for {Auro->Flopz} not ending the game, and my arguments pertain to that universe.
Yes, I have been discrediting townreads on you - and I am now.
I am interested in putting you on the table for elimination in LimLo or LimLo-1.
I could give less hoots about your own read on me when I'm allowing my lim today anyway - if you're town it should be important to you that I retract my scumread on you before I flip, and I already said that direct engagement with me on my scumread of you doesn't matter. If you're going to use this as reasoning to be content voting me, go ahead, but I'll continue advocating for your elim at LimLo(-1).-
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I shall reveal this during my last wordsIn post 4215, lilith2013 wrote:So: who’s my partner, auro?-
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It's not a question, I said that because you keep framing my arguments as being related to Shirou's plan.In post 4215, lilith2013 wrote:If you think AL is town and I’m the only objectionable player in the current bloc in shirou’s plan, I don’t think it actually even matters
How does my intention behind discrediting matter if I flip anyway?
My flip would prove (1) wrong.Not really sure why I would care about you retracting a scumread since 1) I think you’re scum, and 2) I haven’t been eliminated as town for a very long time for a reason - I’m obvtown. I don’t think you’re this wilfully blind to this as town so my conclusion is that you’re scum.
Your being scum would mean (2) doesn't apply.
Town shouldn't listen to "Auro was blind town" when it comes to LimLo(-1).-
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Mena, I am curious as to whether Maria has kept up with the game.-
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Does AL's vote really look like a bus vote though?In post 4228, Menalque wrote:Oh, I also think scum probably bussed which makes me more suspicious of (shirou/chenn/AL)
If bussing was the plan AL would've had a stronger push, right? Were there any instances of him trying to subtly lead the wagon away?In post 3198, Autumn Leaves wrote:My preference order is in 3014. I guess johnny would be my #1 preferred elim, but only because everyone else has done townier things. Maybe at some point I'll summarize why that is, but for now that's all I really have to say.
Also, yeah game's long but I think Maria's takes could be useful later in the game, I think it'd be wise to get them as well.-
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In post 4230, Menalque wrote:So I kinda forgot the game was happening, but I've played this setup a couple times in sitechat before, (and modded them, too) and usually it doesn't matter who gets flipped first, just because if you get town, you get a confirmed townie, and most of the time by the first couple minutes based on who's working with who and so on and so forth.
I get this setup mixed up a lot, though, with white flag( and also every time I skim this I think townies have an extra elim) which is why I posted like I did at end of D1. Let's flip mathblade and win this thing for the homies?-
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Auro Survivor
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I'd like to hear the other main thing, the Math case?In post 4223, Menalque wrote:Actually I’ll share what I guess are the main 2 things now:-
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Not really, but I hope you don't mind that I'll talk about it later.In post 4236, Menalque wrote:Was whether maria had read the game or not the thing you wanted to ask me @auro?-
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Here's a random recommendation to watch Community instead!In post 4240, Menalque wrote:Carpe diem. Seize the day, Auro! Make your life extraordinary!-
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Same. I love the paintball episodes especially.
Sounds like it's time for another rewatch sometime-
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Was expecting that Shirou!town would jump at thisIn post 4223, Menalque wrote:(2) she thinks that if we decide to do shirou’s plan from yesterday then it’s non-negotiable that shirou dies first, but then gets to pick the elims for the next 2 days-
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Auro Survivor
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Sorry boi but you can only get second place at tops-
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On the condition that you engage with me for many pages.In post 4250, Shirou wrote:You were even getting it right yesterday coming to "scum!Shirou". It shouldn't be hard to come back to your previous reads right?
Come, it's very comfy in the scum!Shirou block/wagon. I invite you to sit here.-
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2) Oh yes re-evaluation is scummyIn post 4310, Shirou wrote:2) Auro was suspecting Flopz and did a 180 coming to today
3) Auro thinks both me/Lilith are suspects, but never mentioned how obvious it should be from town!Auro PoV that I'm trying to insert Lilith into the townblock to endgame with my plan
3) is just daft
I'm OK with Auro->Shirou->Lilith-
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Auro Survivor
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No, out of principle. You go ahead and do the work-
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Seems like you're getting pretty agitated, Shirou-
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No, the best play is to convince people to kill the unkillable at some point post my flip.In post 4329, Shirou wrote:town!Auro the best play would be to follow my proposition on BoP-
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?In post 4306, chennisden wrote:Yup Auro's insistence that there's no plan after Auro Flopz just makes me think he's scum
And I'm simply arguing for Lilith to be limmed in that scenario, so...?In post 4139, Shirou wrote:In post 4135, Auro wrote:What's the line of elims after Auro->Flopz?There's no line past that
it means one of our primary assumptions about the townblock are wrong so we would need to talk about it-
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Why should I stop playing the game because it's against your ideals? There are many other players in the game.In post 4340, Shirou wrote:I do believe you're scum so arguing with you is pointless, but if you're talking that I should hedge on the fact maybe you're town and prepare myself accordingly, I disagree.
It's the most optimal plan if you don't value potential wasted time.
I do value time the most.
This is a very bad plan according to my ideals.-
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Chennis, would you consider scum!Lilith strongly if I and Flopz get limmed in succession?-
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Which part of my play aren't you understanding?chennisden wrote:auro i legitimately dont get your play as either alignment here-
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1. I'm in a position where my own lim is virtually guaranteed to me in the next four elims.In post 4356, chennisden wrote:every part
2. I have a scumread that everyone else is townreading, which I am pretty confident on.
3. It seems like the current consensus of elims that it will mostly be me and lhf that get limmed.
4. Follows from (1) and (2) that momentary survival is unimportant in contrast to convincing people to see what I see.
Any part in specific?-
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What do you expect me to do as town? Throw pages of AtE that killing me is daft?In post 4358, chennisden wrote:you're basically going "Dooooomed" the same way johnny is, and if you're scum who's already given up sure I guess, but if you're town wtf-
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I am the best judge of (1). And yes, I place a high value of confidence in the first part of (4) - the implication that I may die is unimportant.In post 4361, chennisden wrote:1. if you're town, hell no it's not
2. im guessing its lilith but the fact i cant even be sure is not a good sign
3. then fight this by BEING ALIVE
4. this assumes you're right and also going to die.
What if I think points against me are logical, just that they're incorrect?chennisden wrote:with idk this thing called, what's the word, "Logic"-
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AL!town, Flopz!town and Lilith!scum are all anti-consensus, I feel. Do you disagree? Although I'm weaker on the first two.In post 4364, chennisden wrote:you're trying to look as though you're anti consensus except you're offering nothing that's not consensus
I still haven't stated any explicit suspicion on you, I just said I'm OK with Auro->Shirou->Lilith I agree with Mena on following up on your deal -- as "you know I'm town because I wouldn't make a deal otherwise so pls get off" is stupid -- I'm fine with that because Lilith is in the lim order.In post 4365, Shirou wrote:I'm gonna be honest
the fact that Auro still suspects me when I'm proposing a BoP on him, when he should know he's town and therefore this is a stupid play from me, is another very confusing point in world where it's town!Auro-
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And that is what I'll be hunting for today *insert smile emoji*In post 4372, Shirou wrote:Who exactly is Lilith partner anyway?-
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Hey, I need the style points.In post 4375, MathBlade wrote:Requiring a solve when we only need one to win is silly.-
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I have a hypothesis and I'm waiting to see what happens.In post 4381, lilith2013 wrote:didn’t you imply you already had a partner for me-
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This is what Shirou would probably say to anyone following up on the deal later regardless of alignmentIn post 4367, Shirou wrote:You can't convince me that it's a good idea for any scum, 4 miselims away from victory, to suggest a BoP unless they don't plan to actually flip the person that day, as I described what scum!me would do in this scenario.
If this was a normal game sure, but it's Black Flag and we only need one other scum elim. This isn't the place for scum to offer BoP. I don't get your suspicious on me ______.-
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Lilith understands my push on her - she's just popping into the thread to discredit it and rush an elim on me before I get it into everyone's heads to suspect her after my flip.-
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In post 4392, lilith2013 wrote:Your reasoning for thinking I’m scum-motivated makes no sense
Your reasoning for trying to push me over whoever you think my partner is makes no sense unless my partner is even more unkillable than I am
If you think I’m more killable than my partner, then you should be arguing against shirou’s plan because there would be multiple scum in the bloc
Incorrect. Killability only becomes an important factor given similar confidence in remaining scum.
My read on you is very confident, and my hypothesis for your partner is unconfident and has to be tested.
"oh fine, I guess town's townreading my confident scumread, let me just partner hunt and convince town to lim THEM" is weak play-
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I am assuming Flopz to be the lim after me. If he's scum, then great, I win, and that's a useless scenario to think about.In post 4396, Shirou wrote:He already decided Flopz is town-
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Joqiza, I think you'd be able to understand what I'm trying to say despite poor articulation and I'd implore you to study her meta if you get the time later in the game. I will, however, make a better attempt at explaining it too.-
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My expectation of subpar performance from you out of lack of mental capacity is different from what I feel in game, though.In post 4400, lilith2013 wrote:if you’re town, perhaps you should realize that I won’t play the same way in every game and not having the mental capacity to “perform” to your standards does not mean I’m scum????????-
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Like Joqiza, Chennis, AL they're all talking about various things apart from {Auro!scum} and I'm basically just OK with my own lim and asking you to engage with anything else to allow me to correct my read of you if I'm wrong, and instead you just continue to pop in to call my reasoning bad and that I'm scum. I've already outlined how I'd like to correct a potentially wrong sort on you and you just ignored it, and you're continuing to attack me, why act surprised that my read isn't changing?-
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