TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Dannflor]

let’s do the time warp again

VOTE: ythan

[Dannflor]

I’m turning a new leaf

Vibes are bad

[Dannflor]

I second guessed myself out of the scum team last game because of too many vibes

[Dannflor]

I’m turning a new leaf

Vibes are bad

the VIBES dannflor how dare you forsake the VIBES

You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the anti-vibers, not join them. bring balance to the vibes, not leave it in darkness.

From my point of view the vibers are evil!

[Dannflor]

hi dann idk if we interacted at all last game lmao, pretty sure I just had you pegged as an early nightkill

I only interacted with other people about their read on you I think

Idk if we were never in the thread at the same time or what

[Dannflor]

the herc hunter has arrived

[Dannflor]

VOTE: iv

[Dannflor]

That’s hurtful

[Dannflor]

ohnoi'msosorrywemeantinthegamenotinreallife
i didn't like 165 though tbh

go on

[Dannflor]

oh sorry, I don’t think that and I was only joking

I meant more yours/hectics feelings on my other posts than that one

[Dannflor]

no xtoxm already qt slipped again this game

[Dannflor]

i've got enough people (Flopz) telling me i'm a bad person in the team discord. he called me hop

dork

earlier

hectic just said you didn't pass the vibecheck yet (nobody failed it though)
for me it's that you don't feel like you're vibing much with the thread/having fun? the only funness i can see (looking back because i forget the specifics of the vibecheck) is in 120 where it feels a little forced as it's reference humor. plus you vote two people i was vibing with after not opening with a vibe

Yeah that makes sense

I am curious why you voted me when you did though instead of when you originally thought my posting felt off

[Dannflor]

I exhaled a little air out of my nose

[Dannflor]

rvs read list inc <3

[Dannflor]

I’m interested that ceph is reacting adversely to mastina here when mastina had pretty decent scum PoE from early pages last game

i don’t know which indicative it is but it’s probably one of them?

finger gun to head its nai because i recall ceph being grumble to mastina last game and grumble to mastina in doubles mafia

ceph you think mastina just got lucky last game and you don’t think anything of her early game reads then? tell us more

this feels like the most massive stretch

[Dannflor]

rvs read list inc <3

oh I guess I wasn't joking

Spoiler: serious rvs analysis time

coming into the game I was trying to keep an eye out for people who were quick to try and recreate the "vibes" of last game but either felt like they were forcing it or just felt distinctly different from last game in how they went about it. Very start of this game has ythan, hopkirk, okapoka, hercule, and IV talking the most. There's no actual content here but it's the type of memey early back and forth that creates (dare I say) good vibes between people and that scum wouldn't hate to establish a foothold in (like hercule had so pointedly done at the very beginning of last game).

off the bat I do agree that hercule feels different this game. He's less shy about directly interacting with people so far and I vaguely liked that he was the one that took the initiative on the meme xtoxm wagon. I don't think his change in approach or tone are things that he wouldn't necessarily be able to do as scum, and I think watching to see if he's able to keep this same type of energy up over a longer period of time will be most indicative for him, but for now I'm comfortable putting him slightly above everyone else.

ythan was who I originally landed on as feeling somewhat suspicious out of the starting meme/vibe/hangout group. just a purely gut reaction but he felt more on the outside looking in and #83 in particular just felt like kind of a forced way to match his energy to the thread. Reading back now though, I don't really see his posting so much as trying to cement himself within the vibes (whatever the hell that actually means) as just poking around rather nonchalantly. He doesn't post that much and doesn't seem particularly desperate to be "in the vibes" which is my new term for people trying to get themselves in the early meme town block I guess?

I actually do lean town on Hopkirk. I won't go into details but I was having a terrible day at work so I think it's at least a little town indicative that Hopkirk and Hectic were sensitive to me feeling a little more dour than usual today? At least, I feel like it should be town indicative. I'm not really giving the same points to Mastina given she came in after Hopkirk and her approach feels a little less curious/thoughtful than Hopkirk's wtr to my slot. although I don't scum read her.

innocent villager I ended up switching my vote to after just one too many posts that I felt were... a little forced? Like to me, the "hahaha I'm scum no I'm not let's be silly guys" stuff was fun for the first few pages but IV seemed intent on continuing it for just a bit longer. It just felt like it crossed the line of someone trying too hard to continue the vibing shit posts while also making it 100% explicit that "I'm just shit posting guys." I dunno, just slightly more self aware than everyone else who was casually shit posting.

It also felt like an intentional choice? Is that a right read IV? It stood out to me and I'm wondering if you were trying to accomplish something specific with the "guys I'm scum" shit posts or if you just didn't want to let go of the fun

Also I'm not sure I vibe with your jump on Cephrir as I think interpreting "don't post your reads list every page" as "Cephrir must hate mastina's reads" feels like just looking for something to attack

I don't have any real thoughts on anyone else yet. OkaPoka feels the same as last game but I don't think that actually means anything for their slot. I thought the worst's pop in was kind of weird on a gut level? but I assume that's just because duck hasn't read the game yet.

[Dannflor]

Until this post.

I'm sorry

[Dannflor]

coming into the game I was trying to keep an eye out for people who were quick to try and recreate the "vibes" of last game

you may have shown this card too early

maybe but I don't think it matters that much it's less of a matter the longer the game goes and the more it becomes detached from the previous

[Dannflor]

It also felt like an intentional choice? Is that a right read IV? It stood out to me and I'm wondering if you were trying to accomplish something specific with the "guys I'm scum" shit posts or if you just didn't want to let go of the fun

Also I'm not sure I vibe with your jump on Cephrir as I think interpreting "don't post your reads list every page" as "Cephrir must hate mastina's reads" feels like just looking for something to attack

i never “jumped” on cephrir in fact I think I townlean him for the post you think I jumped on him for? still poking and going through the motions, yknow

nope! not accomplishing anything specific, I appreciate that you had even a fraction of faith in me to be like an non brain dead mafia player who does things with an actual purpose ?? But no alas I will disappoint you here

I think it was that #283 felt much more aggressively worded than the situation called for

but I might have jumped on you too quickly for that

[Dannflor]

While I do agree it is fairly thoughtful and the contents are objectively decent-to-good, it is very much: not a townpost.

In fact I'm pretty sure this is a Dann-scum post. In like...the 90% percentile range--it's not a lockscum beyond all shadow of doubt lockscum post from Dann, but I'm PRETTY sure it's Dann as scum here.

can you expound on that with anything specific?

[Dannflor]

yeah my only serious read so far that I actually think has any significant weight is Hopkirk as town

the others are vague feels off of rvs that I'm sure will change as the day goes on

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hercule

[Dannflor]

can you expound on that with anything specific?

Can, yes.
Should, not sure--I'll at least say I get very strong deja vu vibes here, but not in a good way.

it would be helpful if you would

[Dannflor]

innocent villager

town...?

[Dannflor]

I'm starting to vibe

[Dannflor]

not to steal cephrir's schtick but I'm not entirely sure that there was one single alignment indicative line in all of those posts

[Dannflor]

he also thinks scum herc would know such a play is unlikely to repay him well

can auro expand on this specifically

I don't really follow why that would be the case

[Dannflor]

hercule could have written a less detailed catalogue and then subscribed to other tendencies of his typical scum playstyle. so if he is scum, he need either present a factually incorrect outline, or holds sufficient belief that he can fool town by taking up a new way of playing as scum, whilst being aware that the amount of wifom involved makes it a comparatively frail gain. he considers both of these scenarios as low probability, with the more likely scenario being that he is speaking without chains, as a result of being town, and that there is no agenda behind what he's done.

I don't really think people (generally speaking) know intimately the differences between their scum and town play as most people just try to replicate their town game as scum. I don't think hercule believing he could make a drastic shift is necessarily town indicative. Also, if you just rolled scum twice in a row in the exact same player list I wouldn't call such a strategy "comparatively frail gain."

This feels like a more technical/in-depth thought than how people actually tend to think in practice

[Dannflor]

can you talk more about your vibes on ythan? i feel like 83 sounds the same as they did last game tonally
hope things are looking up for you soon
could you point out what IV stuff you mean? interacting with him at the time i didn't get a feeling he was forcing it at all. everyone who doesn't like IV seems to be people who came in afterwards?

Uhhh, I don't get the vibes anymore. I think me starting on Ythan just came from me skimming the thread while at work and looking for one specific thing and really hoping to find it. Ythan going "vibe vibe vibe" felt to me, like a bit of a forced joke given talking about vibes is the easiest way to vibe in this playerlist

I need to stop saying vibe. Basically, I just voted him because I didn't vibe with his joke.

Thank you btw.

Maybe forcing is the wrong phrase? It felt like he was trying too hard or just going a little too far in some areas. Every reaction to a vote on him felt like a distinctive "okay engage memey reaction to this vote," which at a certain point (especially when I voted him) felt like just hiding what he was really thinking about the game. #134, #130, #135 just felt a little over-explainy from him. Like yes, I didn't assume IV was potentially role fishing until he made that first post. The second post I just didn't vibe with as a joke. The third post was abundantly evident by what he was posting and it just feels a little too on the nose in the "yeah I'm in meme mode don't take anything I say seriously."

But also, it's entirely possible I just wasn't in a super jokey mood yesterday and that's why I didn't vibe so much. My thoughts on the IV slot have turned around entirely since he started posting actual content.

[Dannflor]

he is confused at the number of people treating mastina in an insulting way, and notes that he has mastina as locktown (????)

They fear mastina - right or wrong, she'll dig her heels in and they're afraid she'll be right.

is anyone treating mastina in an insulting way besides cephrir asking her to not post a reads list after reading every single page?

[Dannflor]

?
that's an odd view considering your wall earlier. there's a lot of stuff from A50 that feels a bit tonally off to me

I was just mad about the mostly content-less quote stripes

are there any specific lines that felt off to you?

I didn't get a read on A50 until very late in the last game, I just tend to skim this type of posting from him

[Dannflor]

VOTE: the worst

[Dannflor]

idk i got bored

and I'm curious if jjh is thinking about anything in particular

I thought the worst's entrance was +awk alignment sooooooo

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: reads

innocentvillager - vibing!
mastina - performative/vibing?
AGar - vibing?
Hopkirk - vibing!
Xtoxm - performative/vibing?
the worst - performative?
Winter Flakes - vibing?
Lady Lambdadelta - vibing?
hercule - performative/vibing?
Okapoka - vibing?
DGB - performative/vibing?
jjh - vibing?
Cephrir - vibing?
Ythan - performative/vibing?
Almost50 - performative??
Dunnstral - vibing

[Dannflor]

Coming over to the duck and leaving the demi before anything really changed is a lil lame

yeah I know

idk I'm just not particularly enthused by anything in this game yet

still looking forward to hercule's response!

[Dannflor]

extreme null on titus and winter flakes

what uh denotes extreme null to you?

why are you calling out these two slots in particular

[Dannflor]

I wonder if the best way to play this game is to throw last game in the trash. Scum will be hyper aware they'll be compared to how they played there. It is a bit useful for getting baselines on people I dont know (e.g. I know I may be predisposed to scumread winter flakes (alt of uncrowned) and should take disliking his posts with a grain of salt) but being visibly different might not actually be a scumtell for that reason.

Dont have anyone I'm especially excited about voting rn so i wont.

yeah maybe but I think scum trying to emulate last game will be forced like... you can't just completely emulate your town game, you have to still make organic reads

Dunnstral does seem immediately more town than last game but that might just be a consequence of being around to post more at the start of the game

[Dannflor]

that was not the post I was trying to quote ..

[Dannflor]

And i guess we are back here

VOTE: xtoxm

Dunn is scary readable? now? Idk how to describe it, but he seems more emotive. Tbh i dont know if i just got charismad by the second coming of flavor

I actually

VOTE: the worst

performative

[Dannflor]

I’m kidding I actually appreciate it

DGB why does that pain you

[Dannflor]

vibing = towny
performative = scummy

it's not an exact translation but close enough
the one's that are both I'm either mixed or explicitly null on

[Dannflor]

Winter Flakes actually had some content (however little) so I just thought it was weird you lumped him in with Titus who had a single V/LA post and then didn't include the worst

[Dannflor]

so ducky are you caught up? what are your takes on this game

i read page one and the last page and that dannflor post mastina quoted is sending off fireworks in my brain

what sort of fireworks?

[Dannflor]

I want to know what you're thinking

presumably you thought something was scummy about that post and I want to know what that is

[Dannflor]

whats ur take on dann in ur own words

this but i asked in a cuter way

[Dannflor]

I want to know what you're thinking

presumably you thought something was scummy about that post and I want to know what that is

oh no no i asked first. what was the function of that post?

oh I got confused yes sorry

partly wanted to get my thoughts about the game in order

also wanted to see if people agreed with my takes on IV and Hopkirk in particular

and partly wanted to go full transparency on what I was thinking so people town read me because I was having a bad day and irritated about mastina scum reading me

honestly probably not a post I should have made in full but I did oh well

[Dannflor]

After thinking about it for a while I don't think I necessarily agree with Auro's read on Hercule

but I think it absolutely smacks of a town!Auro read

[Dannflor]

yeah I think parts of it probably were

sorry

[Dannflor]

I don't think the worst ever misses the irony

[Dannflor]

VOTE: A50

[Dannflor]

what's with the a50 vote dann

hopkirk scum reads him and I'm vibing with it

[Dannflor]

town: hopkirk, xtoxm, innocentvillager
maybe town: dunn

scum: ...A50?

There's other people I vibe with but I wouldn't actually be able to explain why with not made-up reasons

this game feels somewhat lacking in content

[Dannflor]

I kind of want to call mastina town for so steadfastly scum reading me and I know she as town just sometimes treats slots like this, but like it's probably not out of her scum range either?

but honestly it's very frustrating for me and I don't know how to interact with it because I don't think she's really willing to explain her read beyond he looks town so he must be scum and so I don't really know how to go about sorting her here

any mastina readers in the chat?

[Dannflor]

the xtoxm townread seems bold if you only have three townreads

I'm just suddenly feeling really confident about the Auro read

[Dannflor]

last game was hercule as scum and this game hercule is entirely different

I think he's a little different but I'm not really getting entirely different, or at least not yet?

Like his pop-in / catchup where he quoted a bunch of stuff and responded to people really did nothing for me in differentiating this game from last

[Dannflor]

no other takes outside of what I've posted

@tw

ladys frustration with Mastina comes off townie to me

really? that feels explicitly NAI given it seems to be a player issue outside of this game

pedit what the worst said

[Dannflor]

429 is another instance of a post which looks good and looks reasonable and which shows an evolution in thought process that looks like it comes from town but which I don't think actually does come from town. But I'm not sure I can explain it.

okay I'll shut up about your read on me from now on

but I swear you're going to quote every single one of my posts and say some variation of exactly this

[Dannflor]

But I'm not sure I can explain it.

How about

p

e

r

f

o

r

m

a

t

i

v

e

.

?

Spoiler:

[Dannflor]

I wasn't even voting you, and I wasn't hard-pushing you at the time; why was me, of all people, scumreading you but not pushing you strongly, enough of an irritant?

I think I merged you with Hopkirk

[Dannflor]

Dann, Agar, what do you two like about xtoxm here?

There was a spot where they were aggressive last game

They're doing the same exact type of posting where they don't acknowledge a lot of what is going on, even stuff directed at them

I don't understand how Auro's read on Hercule makes them town

I like Auro's thoughts here because they are immediately more developed than last game for one. He actually seems invested in the game.

But, more importantly, Auro has reads as town that are really very technical and like... kind of convoluted at times. The word salad xtoxm paraphrased on hercule feels very much like the type of Auro post that got him pushed so hard D1 in the last Team Mafia. The read on Hercule seems to go so many layers deep (whether or not you buy into the actual logic or credibility) in considering what Hercule might be thinking that I think it's unlikely to be faked. I think I'm just going to be repeating myself if I expand anymore here but it feels very distinctly Auro and not in the way any of the paraphrased posts from Auro did in the last game.

[Dannflor]

I think I'm comfortable putting Mastina at least in the Dunnstral category of tentative town. I think by now I've seen enough of her read on me with a clear head to see that it's prooooobably coming from a pretty genuine place. The little differences in my play she's picked up and elements of performativity are indeed there in my posts and I think she genuinely believes that points towards me being scum. It's a tentative read because I think mastina is a skilled enough player to pick up on stuff like that as scum and push it, but the way she's been arguing it strikes me as towny. I would say the fact she hasn't voted me (until recently I think) is town indicative because even though I think she's *deep* in confbias now I think she still wants to or at least wanted to give me the space to show that maybe that 10% of her being wrong was the case.

The only think I really have left to say to you Mastina is that I am performative as town

Hell I'm performative as a fuckingIC

[Dannflor]

I was so confused for a moment

[Dannflor]

the worst (not the alt of "the best") is playing how i expect town him to so he's a prob town guy but I also don't know if id be capable of scumreading him early game anyway given his style so eh?

can you expand on this? I'm curious how you got this from what little he's actually done

I liked his progression on me but I think he knows me well enough that it wasn't super alignment indicative

[Dannflor]

Do you guys think hell is repeating Day 1 of a large over and over again for eternity

[Dannflor]

sure

VOTE: hercule

[Dannflor]

What’s stopping you from being able to read me?

[Dannflor]

im too scared of you dannflor

I just don't think you've seen my scum game before so I'm curious where that comes from exactly

And it feels a little lazy to sheep mastina's PoE when you know first hand from last game that her reads are hit and miss

I don't actually think I'm that hard to read and I'm a little mystified where that idea comes from for you

[Dannflor]

oh yeah

I scum read Winter Flakes now

[Dannflor]

Winter Flakes is actually the only part of that solve I'm enthused about

[Dannflor]

yes i believe that she is a bit deluded about the 90% number. yes i believe that she believes it. i also believe there seems like enough of a reason and thought process behind her thoughts/reads

yeah that's where my town read of her is coming from too

okay thank you that makes sense

[Dannflor]

What are your thoughts on Mastina, DGB, Me, IV, Hercule, Titus?

I town read Mastina and IV

I don't have a read on DGB and Titus

I'm mixed on Hercule

[Dannflor]

don't think flakes is necessarily town but he's being a lot bolder this game which is... something?

I hate myself a little bit for saying this but he feels more performative this game

[Dannflor]

What are your thoughts on Mastina, DGB, Me, IV, Hercule, Titus?

I town read Mastina and IV

I don't have a read on DGB and Titus

I'm mixed on Hercule

And so you.... what, are voting people like A50 and poking at WF?

Like what i'm hearing from you here is a halfway decent reads list. DGB and Titus being null is a good sign to intellectual honesty, Mastina town is good. IV town is... possibly wrong but acceptable.

You're too high on hercule for my liking, but I can at least understand getting there.

So we have here a understandable reasonable reads list.

And you, a supposed townie with this reads list deciding "yep most of the interaction in this thread is between townies, I need to start pressure on... A50 and WF.

What the fuck possesses you to think that's a good move? If you think all those people are town and shit is wrong, the correct pressure target is someone like Cephrir or Agar or.... Ythan.

Someone sitting kind of pretty not contributing much but being present and accounted for.

Not A50 and WF whose posting has been less than inspired.

I don't get the motivation from you.

I am voting Hercule

[Dannflor]

Winter Flakes is actually the only part of that solve I'm enthused about

what's wrong with winter flakes?

I hated his vote on the worst

speaking of

why are you voting there

[Dannflor]

This isn't a great answer. I know you're helping me apply pressure but you're mixed, so you're entertaining new targets.

I'm saying your target selection is quesitonable and I'm curious where it is coming from.

I am having a very hard time getting reads in this game. Total, I have about six I feel somewhere close to good about.

I am trying to slowly expand that slot by slot. A50 and Winter Flakes have been more present (or at least more present when I am also in the thread) than either AGar or Ythan and I'm more interested in getting reads on people I can actually interact with. Although, as an aside, I don't think I'm scum reading A50 anymore.

[Dannflor]

ceph's recent posts are +town and Hercule's recent posts are +scum

[Dannflor]

does anyone reading this find this behavior to be towny from LLD? Open question to the table

this type of appeal to the crowd shit is not towny, hercule

I feel like you could be literally doing anything else in this game besides trying to appear the good-faith half of the LLD vs. hercule 1v1 and instead you're trying to do something that I think you should *know* is unproductive

Like you trying to engage LLD here doesn't feel like you actually want to solve her, it feels like you want to show yourself off as towny

[Dannflor]

I do think that Ceph's empty vote on the worst is a bit sus considering the worst is AFK for three days and we won't be getting any reactions, what is the purpose

it's a bad vote

I don't think it's actually scummy

[Dannflor]

okay but the way you phrased that whole post sounds like you're trying to set up a dichotomy of "I'm the good-faith player here just trying to understand you LLD and you are the bad-faith player"

like it's very p e r f o r m a t i v e and "does anyone reading this find this behavior to be towny from LLD" is a direct appeal to the crowd that feels more like you're looking for a specific answer than actually trying to get a meta read from anyone

[Dannflor]

tbh I was kind of expecting Ceph to post a short case on someone by now like they did on Agar cuz I was assuming they were tryna copy their towngame when they did that, but if they flipped scum again they prob wouldn't do it again cuz of the optics

that was way later in the game IIRC and like multiple have expressed the vibe that it's hard to get reads this game

ceph isn't the type of player to just make up a read on someone and I don't think there's a shit ton of directly case-able content in this game so far like AGar's post was

[Dannflor]

okay but the way you phrased that whole post sounds like you're trying to set up a dichotomy of "I'm the good-faith player here just trying to understand you LLD and you are the bad-faith player"

like it's very p e r f o r m a t i v e and "does anyone reading this find this behavior to be towny from LLD" is a direct appeal to the crowd that feels more like you're looking for a specific answer than actually trying to get a meta read from anyone

ok well I literally just want input from people, can i get yours?

i feel like i'm being gaslit here: i am trying to find mafia and i'm being accused of not doing anything towny, what else do you expect town to do?

I've played like two games with LLD and she was mafia in both so I don't think anything I say is gonna be based in an amazing meta read

I don't think this approach from her is especially scummy though

I think it's a little odd you haven't considered that maybe she came out of the gate pushing you so hard in order to see what your reaction was. Very generally speaking I'd say it's more likely scum wants concrete reasons to back up their pushes but I wouldn't apply that necessarily to LLD because she's a very good player. But the fact that you're fixed on this, on why LLD pushed you originally feels unproductive and like you should know it would be unproductive.

Like, you haven't commented on much else in this game and as a townie I would expect you to while maybe devoting some attention to LLD, have more thoughts outside of that. Basically, I want to know what you think about literally anything else in this game besides LLD.

I'm suspect of you now not because of anything LLD said originally, but because I think your reaction to pressure here is bad. Like why does it matter that you don't think LLD has good reasoning to be pushing you? Do you think she's scum for it? It almost feels like now you're looking for permission to scum read her for it when you should just do that if you feel like it's scummy.

[Dannflor]

Have Not Said Or Done Something Towny

Jjh
Dannflor
Cephrir
Winter Flakes
Lady Lambdadelta
the worst
Ythan
Titus

Kinda Sus

Almost50

pedit: honestly tho like they just talked about how epic of a scumgame they have and how they're the queen of AtE like what are we even gonna get from voting there, I feel like A50 wagon has better chance to gain traction and LLD is one of those players that if they're scum you have to case the fuck out of them after flipping a partner or two. butttt yolo i'll vote with you because you're my friend

VOTE: Lady LambdaDelta

hercule explicitly null reads LLD and their vote was "ok i guess I'll sheep you"

Like I said, it feels like they are looking for permission to OMGUS

[Dannflor]

dannflor you said you wanted to see thoughts about the game outside LLD from me and yet you say Nothing when i ask what you want to know about

okay it's more I mean I want to see you working on something else than the LLD thing

like who on your wagon is most likely to be scum

is anyone on the sidelines catching your attention?

I feel like these are questions a townie in your position would ask yourself

I'm asking you for like solving I'm not asking for a recount of your reads list

[Dannflor]

dannflor you said you wanted to see thoughts about the game outside LLD from me and yet you say Nothing when i ask what you want to know about

okay it's more I mean I want to see you working on something else than the LLD thing

like who on your wagon is most likely to be scum

is anyone on the sidelines catching your attention?

I feel like these are questions a townie in your position would ask yourself

I'm asking you for like solving I'm not asking for a recount of your reads list

i really gotta fucking go i'm late but bruh I am doing this, I'm just not posting it in the thread until I have more data. like the worst votes on me fmpov (besides LLD) were okapoka and the worst, i asked them if they genuinely scumread me, oka kind of replied and said i was uncategorized which isn't super convincing to me, the worst is afk so not much to gain there but i don't love voting someone just because oka was and then afking for 3days. and now at this point i'm just flustered, i was more solving earlier before LLD came back to the thread and started treating me in bad faith which just frustrates me and distracts me, and i'm aware of this flaw in myself but it is what it is

okay

and to be clear I'm not as 100% convinced you are scum as LLD is, but I do find your reaction so far more likely to come from scum than town

but like I also think there's a possible world where this has spun out of control for you as town. I want to see more of these types of thoughts because if you're town I don't think you're gonna get a whole lot more out of trying to figure out LLD right now

[Dannflor]

BoP isn't an actual thing that happens in mafia games

[Dannflor]

well people who get bop'd and lead town are also charismatic enough to not get eliminated in most games

[Dannflor]

the worst like, definitely could be scum

but with the way he's playing wagoning there doesn't seem particularly productive

[Dannflor]

...

[Dannflor]

@Dann

what dont you like about my TW vote?

and instead of just saying that maybe explain what you dont like about my thought process on him?

and if you just say you SR me for it because of gamestate but dont SR ceph for doing the same thing I'm just going to assume you two are buds

I did kind of explain but maybe you missed it

there's a difference between the votes in that I felt like you had to talk yourself into it and it didn't feel very genuine to me. Like you were showing off your thought process rather than actually having a thought process. performative in other words. But someone, I think Oka, said that might not be alignment indicative for you, and I know some players can just have more uh... performative streaks (I am one) so that's also why I didn't accompany the scum read with a vote

also it's just a bad vote in like I don't know what you hope to accomplish with it

Ceph's was a bad vote too but it didn't have all the performative stuff about why he was doing it, it seemed like he made the decision on his own time and he wasn't deliberate about setting it up as making sense to anyone else

[Dannflor]

Hercules ISO is pretty townie to me ngl

can you go deeper

[Dannflor]

mastina town

[Dannflor]

I was probably wrong about winter flakes

I’ll respond to you when I’m back on computer

[Dannflor]

Also jingle has some cursory thoughts about the game now although they mostly line up with mine

[Dannflor]

sure I'll ask Jingle

[Dannflor]

Jingle does say that A50 is town about 85% of the time here, and would deign to hard defend him D1 if it came to that. He thinks he's significantly townier this game than the last. He likes that A50 recognizes that Jingle would town read him.

Jingle slightly leans town on Ceph but finds him too fencesitty to get a more confident read. He was null reading Hercule early on but also found the reactions I thought were bad, very bad. He scum read LLD early but town leans her I think? He also doesn't mind the pressure on the worst given he feels so empty. I kinda agree but also the worst just hasn't been around so I don't know how much of a read that really is. Also thinks mastina and AGar are pretty town.

Myself, mastina keeps skyrocketing in my town reads the more I think about it. I would still put Hopkirk and IV in there. I trust Jingle's read and honestly Cephrir's read on A50 more than my own. I found Winter Flakes' latest posts pretty towny. WF I know you asked why I'm picking at you this game when I didn't last game, and the fact is I did scum read you last game, my attention was just on more important targets. The fact that I feel like I'm scum reading you for the same reasons as last game probably means I'm off base here though.

I slightly lean LLD town but probably not as much as Jingle. I'm cautious about her but I did like her progression on me. Wary of pocket though. Xtoxm is becoming a stronger town read too with mastina. I still stand by my earlier Auro read, and I think the fact that xtoxm/Auro actually seem to really care about something here when they didn't at all last game is an good sign for their alignment.

I'm actually very wary of Okapoka because they've posted enough I feel like I should be able to read them by now but I just don't. That's a similar read I had on Cephrir for a while last game which is why it worries me. I feel like Oka is a lot less motivated here in general, but I can't really nail down whether that's alignment indicative. idk Oka is there anything you particularly really care about right now? Or are you just kinda waiting for something to jump out at you

also @the worst, jingle wanted me to ask you if you could take a look at a one of the players that you could read by tone? He didn't name any specific names but wanted to offer that as a starting point if you're struggling to find one. Personally I'd appreciate anything on IV, cephrir, or jjh

anyway sorry for the truncated reads but I've just started getting chills and a fever which is kinda freaking me out so I might dip for a day a two

[Dannflor]

jingle also says 886 reaffirms his love for Cephrir

[Dannflor]

also i kinda just want to see more of this herc lld thing and honestly, im a bit lazy and LLD is a great opportunity to let someone take the reigns and for me to get out the way. do you guys really want to see me post storm this game. or do you want to see me ascend above all mortals.

yeah I mean I can't blame you too much because I'm also basically taking that route

I would not push for your elimination today or anything I just notice you seem off

but hey if you get something out of the hercule / lld thing then hopefully I won't have to worry about this

[Dannflor]

Oh my fucking god

That’s why you keep saying “star this”

Holy shit

[Dannflor]

okapoka is either confirmed town or confirmed scum

very astute

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hopkirk

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Hercule

[Dannflor]

but it's quirky

[Dannflor]

take care of yourself

[Dannflor]

Dunn, do you have a read on Hopkirk this game?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hopkirk

[Dannflor]

I don't especially want to kill one of my top town reads

although it's frustrating I have no way to engage with her

[Dannflor]

let's just not let the game get to lylo

[Dannflor]

lmao what

[Dannflor]

I'm not exactly vibing with that

[Dannflor]

although to be fair I’m not sure she’s right on Hercule

[Dannflor]

VOTE: okapoka

[Dannflor]

i know i just got burned last game but why are we townreading a50 anyhow, i checked his iso and he has 100 posts which seems, high because i can only recall him vs hopkirk lol

did you get a particularly different impression last game?

[Dannflor]

or is that what you mean by you got burned and you're just fine with maybe making the same mistake again

[Dannflor]

that was unintentionally accusatory, I'm just wondering why you find that odd from A50

[Dannflor]

Why do you think that an incredibly common towntell is, "X gave thoughts from teammate Y, they're more likely town"? Did you think that came out of nowhere? No, that tell exists because of a longstanding team mafia meta, a meta not specific to any team but specific to the event itself. Teammates don't care about their teammates' scumgames. Any time a teammate does intervene, it is the exception to the general rule of apathy for games not your own.

this is probably true but it's so weird given winning a scum game in this event almost guarantees a good shot at winning the event

[Dannflor]

so ythan, why are you voting LLD

[Dannflor]

no that's not what I mean

I mean why do you agree with it?

[Dannflor]

LLD I have some ideas about this game I'd be interested in you hearing out if you still have the energy

I'm gonna try to get the post up tonight but it might be tomorrow

anyway just check back in for it if you feel up to it

[Dannflor]

I don't like that vote

shit sorry that wasn't a question

[Dannflor]

sneak peak preview of my theory for this game is that the hercule/LLD/mastina trifecta is actually all town and there are some certain slots that aren't exactly on the sidelines but are utilizing this dynamic that might be scum

don't worry oka I'm just voting you as a placeholder until I vote the super obv scum slots that no one but the great dannflor has been able to see yet

[Dannflor]

I vote the super obv scum slots

I meant case but that works too

[Dannflor]

hm well I wanna flip scum so

idk maybe we actually do have different win conditions

[Dannflor]

some of the votes on both the LLD and the hercule wagon over the course of the day have been... really bad

[Dannflor]

get sadge dannflor because im doing the thing i do in most games where im just going to commit to a narrative and stick for a flip

i thought i evolved past it last game but here we are, back again, old habits die hard

what is LLD town flip gonna tell you?

That we should flip hercule next?

maybe mastina?

like it doesn't sound particularly like you believe it'll flip scum

[Dannflor]

why the fuck are you town reading ythan and not A50

[Dannflor]

Also, can I get your hopkirk read while you're at it oka

[Dannflor]

I’m sorry but WaGoning LLD has decidedly not been like pulling teeth and it’s been entirely too easy *especially* considering the type of player she is

please do not loleliminate her right now

[Dannflor]

Yknow that’s a good post

[Dannflor]

I’m not sure how much I agree with it yet but I finally might be townreading you

[Dannflor]

I’m not sure how much I agree with it yet but I finally might be townreading you

And no not just because it was a long post CEPHRIR

[Dannflor]

It has not escaped my notice that Dannflor is reducing the case against LLD as a lolwagon.

cases are scummy

[Dannflor]

iv what is oka's favorite color??

[Dannflor]

hey nice case

[Dannflor]

sorry for another wall, I know this game really doesn't need more of those

Spoiler:

I don't think it's all that unlikely that the LLD/Hercule/Mastina trifecta that's been the ongoing nuclear center of almost the entirety of Day 1 is all town.

I hard town read mastina for reasons I've already stated, you need only click on my ISO. Jingle agrees with this read and mastina was one of his first town reads upon reading through the game. LLD also hard town reads mastina, which is exactly why she's gotten so frustrated with the game. Also, the fact that both LLD and I hard town read mastina speaks good things for mastina's alignment regardless of the alignment of either me or LLD.

OkaPoka posted some good thoughts about why LLD is town recently. I won't argue that LLD won't play an emotional game as either alignment, but I think looking at the crux of her frustration here and how she's going about handling it, it speaks more towards town. I don't think LLD really ever tries to maybe back off of Hercule as scum. I think LLD's interactions with mastina, while not pleasant, are +town. I also thought the questions she asked of me and Cephrir about our motivation before we starting questioning Hercule—I'm referring to posts #803, #813, #815 specifically—it shows to me she's genuinely thinking about sorting the game beyond getting her perfect Hercule elimination. Also, uh... yeah I don't think LLD is the type of scum player to just disappear right as she's getting to E-2. You need only look at like, any other scum game of hers, AvP for instance, to see that she's gonna put up a fight the whole way. Yes blah blah blah she can warp her meta blah blah blah, but it's just like a bad strategical decision man. I think her genuine frustration with mastina is more likely to come from town who town reads her than scum who has decided to town read her and feels like... threatened by her?

Hercule is probably the town read in this trifecta I'm least sure about, but I think with how the game has played out and the dynamics at play it feels best for me if he's town. Like I don't strongly get the sense we've run up scum today. I can't really explain that beyond a gut feeling so that's probably a useless thing to say.

First, I'll say this, I never bought LLD's initial case on hercule whatever the fuck it was. Honestly, I didn't have much of a read either way on Hercule until he reacted in what I felt was a bad way to LLD's push. However, there's also definitely townie who react like that and his later posts suggested that was probably the case. I also don't think the idea that OH NO HERCULE HAS 35 PLAYERS THAT CAN ALL HELP HERCULE PLAY SCUM WAY DIFFERENT FROM LAST GAME is a case that is convincing at all. Unless hercule has some famously excellent scum player like FL or RC on his team then like... what is the actual worry here? Also how many people helped their team mates in black flag significantly with their scum game?? So overall, the only case I really hold as valid for hercule scum is the bad reaction to pressure, but like, that goes either way and taken all together I generally consider his posts townier than not. I mean, there's the caveat that I told hercule exactly what I wanted from him to town read him and then he posted a reads list, but like, it's not a bad reads list at least? There's also the small factor that I feel like hercule has had a lot less trouble with direct interactions this game. He hasn't seemed to shy away from them and seems more eager to be directly confrontational / question people. Also, I think his back and forth waffling on LLD and uncertainty on wtf to do with her is +town in the end.

So like, what does this actually mean for who is scum?

Who has been happy to ride out the LLD - Hercule wagons and just let town implode? Who has done this without significantly being town? Who has done this without seeming to be trying to get anything out of this mess other than flips? Who just isn't doing anything and able to get by because this clusterfuck is happening?

Town

mastina - see above
LLD - see above
hercule - see above

xtoxm - idk I like my auro read even if auro disagrees. He mentioned why I wouldn't assume he's more invested because black flag ended, honestly I just forgot about that. overall xtoxm is just a blinding sphere of golden light compared to last game. Jingle said to me a couple days ago that xtoxm is probably town and if he keeps up this level of activity and engagement he's almost lock town. Well, the fact he just randomly posted a case on Dunnstral without even really needing to at all and then concluding with saying they still wanna kill LLD is like, very much lock town levels in my book.

A50 - This is mostly Jingle's read not mine. And, it seems to be mostly a meta read. But I don't know how else to read A50. Overall, they seem extremely similar to last game to me, which is probably +town? Both Cephrir and Jingle who say they know or have recently seen A50's scum game find this game an obvious town game from him. I can try to get Jingle to elaborate more if needed but I'm happy just sheeping this for now because at the very least I don't detect any agenda from A50.

IV - I don't think anyone besides DGB suspects this slot so idk how many words I wanna spend here. but I think they've just been pretty obvious town in their progressions, how they go about questioning people, and honestly even how they've reacted to DGB. They're one of the slots that I actually believe has been trying to get to the bottom of the LLD/Hercule mess and get some reads out of it for themselves.

OkaPoka - Okay until recently I actually was scum reading OkaPoka. I lied about voting him for a placeholder. He seemed like he was just content to ride out the LLD/Hercule resolution and he didn't seem particularly pro-active in literally anyway. I also didn't understand the push on mastina for being political at all. Now, I actually understand his thought process better and I think the fact that he's gone back and forth between prodding both Hercule and Mastina (but having actual reasons for doing so) is + town. There's like other stuff here too but it's less important.

====

[jjh, Winter Flakes, Cephrir] also belong in my town reads. but I don't have as many words to say. jjh just doesn't seem like he cares how he's percieved. Maybe that's a strategy to get town read, and well, it's working. Winter Flakes had a spree of posts that I thought was really town, although he had a weird half-push half-question of me where he thought there was a weird difference between me this game and me last game, and I wasn't sure what type of response he was expecting and he never really followed up on it so that's why I'm maybe a little weaker on this read than some people. But still probably town. sorry for run on sentence. Cephrir is probably town. People are like oh no he's too fence sitty and indecisive and scummy (including myself) and forgetting he confidently made pushes more than once last game.

[titus] is not readable right now imo

[agar, DGB] - I just haven't picked up on anything towny yet here. Jingle town read AGar's tone and I know a few other people have too, so there might just be something I'm missing there. I feel like it's easy to town read DGB's confidence in the face of LLD, but I dunno. I don't really get any significant sense it's actually thinking about the game beyond trying to get flips. Maybe that's town indicative? Like, a few pages ago it said that it won't forget I'm "reducing the case on LLD to an lolwagon" and then did nothing with that and still town reads me. Feels the most politically driven out of all the players and I just really don't know what to make of that.

[dunn, hop, ythan, the worst]

I was town reading Dunn but honestly it was a very lazy read and reading back looking for people just standing on the sidelines of this LLD/Hercule dynamic, he stands out with his push onto xtoxm and then just kind of sitting on hercule but never making any effort to engage hercule. It feels perfunctory. I did town read the vote then unvote then vote of hercule like cephrir did but... It's also distinctly not town!Dunn's style I feel? He felt far too easily swayed by the thread's movements and while he makes a lot of specific comments about specific posts, a lot of his views seem fencesitty. IDK xtoxm just posted a case on dunn so I'm not gonna waste too much energy here.

Hopkirk I don't have as much of a reason to scum read as I do a lack of reason to town read. They haven't done really anything with the hercule/LLD dynamic. My reason for town reading them is essentially ancient and basically comes from hectic over hopkirk. I did think Hopkirk's reaction to the small wagon that built on him wasn't that great. But honestly, I just need to see more from this slot doing more in the game because I felt they had more of a presence last game despite probably posting a similar amount?

ythan - I actually think is close to obvious scum reading back and I'm surprised no one has pushed here yet. I don't understand the claims that ythan has been similar in tone and content as last game. Wtf has ythan actually done this game? Last game he actually picked a fight with hercule and tried to sort him and genuinely got something he cared about out of that engagement. Who has he earnestly engaged with this game for any extended period of time? What actual content has he posted? I'm not seeing it. Like yes, he had about the same volume of memey shit posts last game, but he also had a much larger volume of posts that at least *tried* to do something. He's also one of the biggest culprits of just riding out the hercule/LLD dynamic in a way that might look towny on a surface level because YAY WAGONS but like... I have no idea what ythan is thinking here. The two main things he's done at all this game is vote hercule for like no reason, and then vote LLD for like no reason. ????

the worst - not a lot to say here. I won't scum read him for not being here or being vla or whatever. He's probably busy with out of game stuff. But the times he has popped in were unimpressive and felt a bit forced. Granted, that's not necessarily scum and I wish the worst was more readable right now but I can't put him any higher because he really hasn't done anything towny. I don't really think the team is exactly my bottom four, so it's likely I'm town reading someone I shouldn't be. But that's a problem for future Dannflor

======

that list isn't exactly ordered except for the vague tiers I outlined

I'm happy to wagon anyone in my bottom four today

speaking of VOTE: dunnstral

[Dannflor]

also probably happy to wagon like DGB since I'm mixed there

[Dannflor]

Chennisden has some thoughts that I'll be paraphrasing over here. He agrees with me on IV scum and LLD town, so at least that's something.

welp dannflor that's two slots scumreading me now lol

ahhh the pressure is mounting ahhh

be careful

dgb will add this to it's mounting wall of "self-conscious iv" evidence

[Dannflor]

I like your DGB case, it's plausible

there's too many people I want to wagon, we've had only two serious ones today

[Dannflor]

i kind of do because like four people here are attacking me because they're claiming it's inflammatory when it's blatantly not and some of them are clearly scum sheeping the shade on me

do you actually believe this

[Dannflor]

nah I voted you because I thought it would be interesting

also ceph cased dunn?

[Dannflor]

for what it's worth I have never thought that the 'joke' itself was alignment indicative

i have mostly just wanted people to stop talking about it

[Dannflor]

VOTE: dgb

[Dannflor]

let's wagon dgb or ythan

[Dannflor]

hi duckie nice to see you

[Dannflor]

after seeing 1765 I decided we should wagon dgb or ythan

[Dannflor]

fucjk i fucked up the joke

[Dannflor]

also now everyone knows that I have absolutely no idea how post tags work and use url tags for every post

[Dannflor]

VOTE: DGB

I guess my vote flopping wasn't a scumtell after all, I just can't resist doing what oka/dunn/dann are doing

now THIS is

podracing

vibing

I just remember using a post tag exactly once and it linked to like post #134 of the entire site or something and I was confused

[Dannflor]

-the wagon feels hardstuck and that makes me think its a situation like last game where scum are just refusing to bus

I mean it got to E-2

and I know I'm one of those refusing to vote LLD but I'm town so it's harder for me to buy this reasoning

[Dannflor]

-there was a moment where i was talking to dunn and i didnt feel he was being townie at all and lld came in and called dunn town and it sounded really fake

i think this is the best reason you have (whether or not I agree with it, idk where exactly it is even) and I'd be interested in anything else you/auro have that has specifically to do with what LLD has done

when you're less tired if need be

[Dannflor]

ow she's strategically lurking as her scumpals manufacture a counterwagon on her attacker.

dgb am I scum

I feel I've been among the most vocal about various counterwagons

[Dannflor]

I also town read xtoxm although I will admit I'm waiting on more elaboration for the read on you because I don't think it's very good from what I've seen so far

[Dannflor]

125 words double spaced

[Dannflor]

VOTE: ythan

[Dannflor]

VOTE: the worst

[Dannflor]

Hey Dann

You said my vote on TW was bad ages ago

Not much has changed outside of the fact he's back from VLA now and you're voting him

what's up with that

other people are voting him now and even more time has elapsed since he’s done something

It’s still not a “good vote” but oh well

[Dannflor]

if we are all town, lld has been aggro pushing town all day, which demostrates the slot is playing to a pro-scum agenda
okay, the monty hall scenario is increases the statistics, but lld is a claimed strong scumhunter

so with this player having pushed exclusively town slots (excuse your suspicion on dgb for the argument) who's also
1. strong town player in a game with many strong town players
2. is known to attack universal townreads with flaws that can be capitalised on
where does it lead?

if you dismiss this with "oh, town can be wrong", observe that she has failed to fix any of her reads, and has doubled down on {herc, dgb, x} containing scum (the slot voting you is not an excuse when the slot is obvtown on its own merits)

this also raises the question of how you will ever gain an accurate read on lld. if you excuse repeated bad pushes as "can be wrong town", then you can never see the difference between scum!ldd and town!lld. you need to look at the actions, not the words.

if you concur with this, then we can instead debate whether all of {dgb, hercule, xtoxm} are town.

if you do not concur, then you will keep asserting that no case exists until she wins.

I need you to explain why the bad pushes are bad pushes from LLD. It's not nearly as self evident to me. This whole argument that "a strong town player is pushing my town reads all game" applies exactly to mastina fmpov. I don't actually think she's scum because that would be a ridiculous reason to think someone is scum. Especially in a game where all three of the players she is pushing are making posts like the above.

Like, the fact that LLD has OMGUS'd onto you guys is completely understandable given your apparent refusal to explain why her play is bad beyond "we disagree and I'm right." I'm not used to you (mostly Auro) posting cases that are so... not logical?

the only player in [dgb, hercule, xtoxm] that is even close to obv town is your slot, and even then I don't blame LLD seeing pushes against her like this and assuming there's probably scum in that grouping. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.

[Dannflor]

feeble xtomx vote

This is kinda valid

actually yeah

this is the best argument against LLD so far

the vote is terrible even if I can kinda twist my head and understand it

[Dannflor]

I'd kinda like to see more from LLD because I still don't know what she is from her posts and I'm starting to feel like I might be 5th impostering purely based on the gamestate.

[Dannflor]

I vibe with them

[Dannflor]

VOTE: ythan
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: titus

[Dannflor]

VOTE: ythan
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: titus

Maybe. How is Ythan different from last game/ will they ever be readable?
Why do so many people townread dgb?

ythan cared about something last game

[Dannflor]

you cared about hercule being scum last game

I have not gotten the impression you care about much anything this game

like I guess you scum read LLD? but,,, why

[Dannflor]

no that's not what I mean

I mean why do you agree with it?

I don't buy all that bombastic noisy bullshit and I don't think she's hunting scum.

I'd expect you to remember given you were the one who asked me before.

yes I remember this answer

doesn't really help me see that you either actually care about LLD being scum or why you think the bombastic noisy bullshit is scummy or why you don't think she's hunting scum

[Dannflor]

it's demonstrably not the answer to the problem I have with you

idk why you're being hostile

[Dannflor]

I'd still like to address you presenting me last game as caring. This feels illegitimate.

I think you cared about hercule being scum last game

[Dannflor]

Danflorr.

:/

[Dannflor]

Cephrir, what's your current read on Oka?

[Dannflor]

lolsolve rn is something like {Titus, dunnstral, Cephrir, AGar} don't @ me

someone let me know if they wanna towncase any of these 4

ive briefly talked about Titus

i get heebie jeebies from AGar's ISO this game (to be fair i don't think I've ever townread this slot and I've only played with with him twice and he was town both times? but idk, I explicitly feel a little worse about him this time than the previous times?)

I know Gypyx townleans Dunnstral but like... idk im getting a survivalistic postury vibe from him

Cephrir is superficially different but is anything outside his scumrange here? mehhh

cephrir is my pocket super town read this game. Is there anything about him that has specifically worried you or is this just PoE + not seeing anything special?

AGar I'd be interested in specifics as well.

[Dannflor]

A50 is moving in the opposite direction in read structure from last game. Probably a good sign.

Lilith thinks Dunnstrall is town because they think he plays with an aggressive deepwolf agenda as scum. While here he's not showing much of an agenda. Is that accurate Dunn? I wouldn't know.
Says they're hard scum reading IV but also, they always scum read IV.

I thought Oka was less of a firebrand here, naturally on the same page I say this they go all scorched earth on Ythan. S_S liked his vote on LLD as a reaction test. But like, meh.

I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

bell like could be scum but I don't really agree that this is why

Why doesn't the lack of amazing strong content tell apply to Luca Blight as well? This just feels like an overreaction to a scumread

which I'm not saying is scummy but this response feels more emotional than anything

[Dannflor]

i was thinking town but now that you ask me i'm overly comparing to last game and doubting it

I have the same doubts but every time I think about wagoning Okapoka I get queasy

[Dannflor]

VOTE: ythan

[Dannflor]

this game is a bunch of players who all fiercely scum read each other for reasons I can't quite seem to grasp

[Dannflor]

if I never see the word performative again it will be too soon

[Dannflor]

which lurker(s)?

how do you feel about ythan

[Dannflor]

If you strong TR him that’s cool, I’m probably wrong on him then

I will look into agar because I think think there were specific things that felt weird to me (but ugh, definitely could be conflating playstyle with My historical record)

Cephrir can be shelved sure. I'm not sure I could really town case him convincingly either right now I just kind of *need* him to be town for my sanity.

AGar is more interesting to me because there are a lot of things in his posting that either feel weird or I disagree with. But I felt that last game too and I'm not sure any of it is genuinely scummy?

[Dannflor]

AGar is more interesting to me because there are a lot of things in his posting that either feel weird or I disagree with. But I felt that last game too and I'm not sure any of it is genuinely scummy?

yes this is definitely giving me pause on agar

how did you feel about the Titus wagon? you were briefly on it

I don't mind the Titus wagon, I think I like it better than the DGB wagon now.

Titus definitely fits the mold of side-line player not really doing anything besides casually calling LLD town (which in my theory of the game is more likely to be scum)

I'd say ythan and Titus are probably my top two picks for wagons at the moment.

I'm okay with letting Bell post some more for now, I'm hoping he becomes more readable one way or another

[Dannflor]

idk if it's just me but I've run out of energy to defend LLD from arguments that are kinda drawn up out of nowhere

and the worst part is that I don't really agree that slots like xtoxm or DGB have to have scum in them. Gun to head both of those slots are probably town. So is mastina.

And I don't really want to continually argue with slots that are most likely town but just keep shoving conf-biased arguments at me over and over. It feels like most of the game won't be happy until there's an LLD flip regardless of anything else that happens.

I don't want that, I think she probably flips town. I think ythan/titus has a much higher chance of flipping scum individually but like, I have run out of fervor to push against this narrative

[Dannflor]

which lurker(s)?

how do you feel about ythan

my read is essentially: ythan who?
perma-null basically

something something scum most often lands in the exact center point of people's reads lists

scum read as null a lot more often as town and scum

idk I just can't shake the feeling that there was actual opinions from ythan last game to read him off of and this game feels like he's forcing himself to do anything

[Dannflor]

I'd actually be very happy to vote Titus too if someone suddenly has a compelling town case for Ythan

but I think I've reached the end of my road today and I think within these 2 there's a high likelihood of flipping red

or at least higher than any other case I've seen today has convinced me of

[Dannflor]

I don't know if I can call Titus town, but if Titus is willing yo sheep and vote with me, she can have a townie card.

I'd be careful because I don't doubt scum are probably in this group

like as much as you hate the people slinging BS arguments at you

I'm not so sure that's going to many scums first train of action

casually backing you up without actually doing anything concrete (ftr I don't think cephrir actually fits this mold) seems more like the easiest scum agenda right now

[Dannflor]

Dann's preparing for when I flip town.

you caught me

[Dannflor]

meh

[Dannflor]

VOTE: titus

[Dannflor]

i voted ythan initially specifically because of a difference I saw in last game and this game

I've said this so many times

[Dannflor]

i'm getting v similar vibes from last game from him

like so many people have said this

about so many slots in the game

and it feels so surface level

Who has *very different* vibes from last game?

[Dannflor]

winter?

[Dannflor]

it's fine I don't think there's actually anything wrong with that opinion

I'm just a little annoyed because like 3 people said that exact same thing and like 3 times I was like but no I specifically don't think ythan has been similar

might just mean I was wrong there meh

[Dannflor]

paragon of mafia hunters

[Dannflor]

I'm not scumreading ythan

They're not much above null but still, I don't want to compromise there

Titus?

[Dannflor]

For cephrir yeah,
too many posts 'not giving a shit because I rolled town this game'
and I hate mastina posting posts.

this seems distinctly like a personality read on cephrir

[Dannflor]

I really don't like those two posts :/

[Dannflor]

it's not mastina

[Dannflor]

dann i look to you for salvation

idk im just gonna like sheep cephrir i guess

VOTE: dgb

[Dannflor]

oh

the mind melding vibers

[Dannflor]

also I still think LLD is town and I'm starting to think scum literally can't be entirely in the group that's not really taking a side

[Dannflor]

[auro]

1.
dgb's method of generating reads has been consistently fluid. look at her play wrt lld:
-dgb noted early in the game that lld's attacks on mastina were scummy
-objected to our slots suspicion on lld for not considering the possibility of performative town!lld
-scumread on lld came after #679, and mentioned the personal attacks, consistent with above

2. what is the reason for it to push lld so far, if scum? does scum!dgb think it wins the 1v1 with hypothetical town!lld?

3. corralling the town to vote, #1574, shows town motivation. it drives up participation, and makes people takes stances.

4. as far as i can see, the case on dgb is:
- motivations being read into how it has played
- appearance as compared to previous game (why the heck does this mean anything?)
if you have a strong read, you will come across as pushing behind a motive, ie, that of pushing you read to a kill (exactly what we have spent the day doing, btw). the tunnel is not out of no where, the path dgb took is clear. lld has also been following the motive of trying to eliminate hercule, xtoxm, dgb - and yet this is okay even if all are town?

5. there has not only been attention on lld, dgb has been regularly updating reads on the playerlist throughout the game, and with explanations not related to the lld read

6. what is the issue with dgb's case in #1810? i want to hear a convincing reason of why is it bad, not just simply a difference of opinion



@dann and dunn. i want you to commit to answers on these for future reference.
1. bop - lld has pushed {hercule, xtoxm, dgb}. i assert that all are town, and this play is insufficient for a scumhunter of lld's quality. you allege that dgb is scum. if dgb flips town, does this hold weight?
2. there have been many attempts for a counterwagon. with a solid block of players who townread each other pushing the lld wagon all day, would it be easy for scum to take advantage and achieve a town!lld flip, and allow the slots who pushed hardest to bear the brunt of the fallout.
3. jjh has mentioned that he townreads much of the wagon composition on lld, which makes it a good wagon. do you agree with his logic? if yes, which slots other than dgb are not townreads for you? if dgb flips town, does this view gain strength?

[end auro]

1. I don't really believe in BoP as a scum hunting tool. So, no.
2. This is exactly what my theory of the game has been and why I've been searching for scum outside of the main people pushing LLD.
3. I don't think a town driven wagon makes a wagon more significantly likely to hit scum in a vacuum. It depends on the context of the rest of the game. Also, I don't really believe DGB is scum now that I've thought about it more and I feel another vote switch incoming.

My turn to ask a question, auro/xtoxm. What happens if LLD flips town? What happens to your reads?

[Dannflor]

lld has also been following the motive of trying to eliminate hercule, xtoxm, dgb - and yet this is okay even if all are town?

this is a misrep and idk why you continually resort to it to push LLD

[Dannflor]

literally the only person LLD has asked to be BoPed on, and I think it was out of a fit of rage more than anything is mastina

[Dannflor]

the only two people I genuinely scum read atm are [titus, bell]

then there's a nebulous group of people that could be scum but I haven't and don't have the energy to sort them out this phase

I don't really want to compromise

VOTE: titus

I will case this in a few hours

[Dannflor]

my phone's weather app says there's a 100% chance of snow at 2pm

it's 2pm

and there is NO SNOW