Newbie 1826 Basketball Game Over

[Luca Blight]

Right, I've only caught up to page 11 as I was worried I'd be night-killed.

No-one even think about voting until I've caught up completely.

[Luca Blight]

On page 19 and thoughts are as follows:

FFS Assemble. I'm seriously thinking about avoiding games with him in future if this is how he's going to play every time.

Surprised Cheeky ends up getting lynched from this position; interested to see what happens there.

Terrible hammer from Voyager, one of the worst I've seen. He was very new at the time though and his explanation seems kind of genuine so not entirely scumreading him for it, however.

Glad the Peaches slot was killed as that was one that looked dodgy at this point.

I'm suspicious of the Plot slot - if only because they still happen to be alive.

The Clemency slot is a bit vague. Not sure what to think there,

The Xnad slot has done nothing of note so far.

[Luca Blight]

Page 23:

My Town feeling for UVC is growing - pretty much entirely on gut, but I just don't see his reaction to his wagon and subsequent pushing of Cheeky coming from scum.

I agree with my predecessor's points against Clemency in 523.

I don't particularly like Thor's entrance.

Toto, who did you replace? I don't see you on the list.

[Luca Blight]

If everyone can give their current reads/thoughts while I catch-up then that would be helpful.

[Luca Blight]

Based on what I'm reading it would appear unlikely both Voyager and Toto are scum unless they risked distancing to the point of bussing during D2. Out of the two of them the Toto slot looks far worse, based on the Xand contributions solely.

[Luca Blight]

Dude, just read BlackVoid replace out, there is now way I'm getting lynched this game.

Sounds interesting. What page might I find that?

On page 30 now.

[Luca Blight]

I know, but I like reading the thread as it occurred (barring our real-time talk here and now).

More interesting that way.

[Luca Blight]

Although if I really do have reason to Townread you based on the BlackVoid thing (still excited to find out what happened there) and I trust my read on UCV, then the scumteam must be Thor/NSG by POE, from my perspective.

[Luca Blight]

Although I'm starting to get a bit paranoid over a UCV/NSG scumteam, based on what I'm reading atm.

The bit where UCV saying he would consider a Clemency lynch but would rather Xand....UCV's position on Clemency has been weird for a while now.

[Luca Blight]

Oh wait, UCV just put Clemency to L-1...I guess that changes things.

[Luca Blight]

@mod, can we get a vc / updated list of players alive?

Not really liking how NSG posts this and leaves without interacting with anyone.

What are you thinking, NSG?

[Luca Blight]

NSG - I haven't caught up to this point yet, but I'm interested to hear whether you agree with Toto that BlackVoid's ragequit makes him Town?

[Luca Blight]

On page 35 - gonna sleep now and finish catching up Tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

@Toto

- I think he would have been a lot more hesitant to hammer Assemble if he was scum - especially newbscum in probably his first scum game. His explanation also seemed quite genuine to me.

There's been a lot of little things I've read that have made me gut read him as Town. I might go through it more thoroughly once I've fully caught up.

[Luca Blight]

At page 36 - just want to share an idea I had while reading this part.

BlackVoid is saying there should be a no-lynch as it's very unlikely five out of six townies will pick correctly and scum are unlikely to bus. I really disagree with no-lynching in this scenario when nothing is to be gained from the NK - what should have happened here is everyone agrees beforehand to allow the conftown to pick someone to lynch, and once he has made his decision no-one is to have any objections - this way scum could not have influenced the lynch at all, and if they tried then they would have risked being outed.

[Luca Blight]

People should actually stop talking and sheep me.

Vote: No Lynch

This is terrible - a no-lynch is acceptable is this situation, but to want it done immediately without using any of the day to find scum/produce more content seems something scum would wish for.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

not okay with even the chance of the day ending yet.

Whereas this looks a bit LAMIST.

Why even vote 'no-lynch' in the first place if you don't want to risk the possibility of the day ending at this point?

[Luca Blight]

Not really sure what your point is there, NSG. Are you saying why would anyone vote someone if at that point they are not ready for the day to end?

Well, it's a bit different to putting 'no-lynch' to L-2 when pretty much everyone in the game had expressed interest in no-lynching at that point. It feels like you voted just so you could unvote and look Town.

Just caught up to the BlackVoid replace-out...what an anti-climax.

NSG - I want you to answer if you believe BlackVoid's replace-out makes Toto Town? Not sure why you answered my post above yet avoided this question.

[Luca Blight]

also, now that the nightkill is already happened i should talk a bit more about yesterday -

initially i thought the exact same thing as you in 1082

, but on hearing the argument it made sense to me to avoid talking. the no lynch was for town information purposes and seeing how scum made their kill only based off of the day two information would be more revealing, i thought.

Huh? Then why did you not mention your disapproval at the time?

The fact you also voted NL immediately after Thor implied you agreed with his stance.

[Luca Blight]

But why didn't you mention your disapproval of Thor's post at the time?

Who do you think is scum?

[Luca Blight]

But why didn't you mention your disapproval of Thor's post at the time?

Who do you think is scum?

like i said, i didn't get that it was referring to the idea of having no discussion that day and just voting no lynch until lucca both pointed it out and explained why it made sense. when he did that, i both understood the original post and agreed with it.

I understand why you eventually agreed with it, but in 1085 you said you initially thought the exact same thing as me about Thor's post (that it was bad) so I'm asking you why you didn't mention your initial disapproval in the thread?

if i had to pick, right now? probably you and thor.

Can you back this up with some reasoning?

[Luca Blight]

But why didn't you mention your disapproval of Thor's post at the time?

Who do you think is scum?

like i said, i didn't get that it was referring to the idea of having no discussion that day and just voting no lynch until lucca both pointed it out and explained why it made sense. when he did that, i both understood the original post and agreed with it.

I understand why you eventually agreed with it, but in 1085 you said you initially thought the exact same thing as me about Thor's post (that it was bad) so I'm asking you why you didn't mention your initial disapproval in the thread?

if you're talking about from the start of this day, it didn't really seem relevant to say

"oh hey guys initially i didn't agree with no lynching but then i agreed with it"

. it was really just an internal thought process that i brought up because it seemed lke you had the same thought that i did. i still get the feeling that i'm not answering your question, though.

The point wasn't whether you agreed with the no-lynch; the point was you disagreed with Thor's approach of ending the day immediately without discussion, yet in 952 (the very following post) not only do you not mention your disapproval of Thor's approach, you make it look as though you're going along with it by also voting No-Lynch and putting it to L-2 so early in the day.

[Luca Blight]

That doesn't match up to this:

also, now that the nightkill is already happened i should talk a bit more about yesterday -

initially i thought the exact same thing as you in 1082, but on hearing the argument it made sense to me to avoid talking

. the no lynch was for town information purposes and seeing how scum made their kill only based off of the day two information would be more revealing, i thought.

But clearly this is going nowhere.

[Luca Blight]

is that satisfactory? at the time i made 952 i hadn't picked up that thor wanted the day over with no discussion - i thought that he was referring to how people should sheep him in more of a general game sense (ie sheep him on his scumreads).

Whatever you thought Thor's intentions were, you disapproved yet made no comment towards it, instead actually going along with what he wanted.

[Luca Blight]

Nsg I think what lucca is saying is that you voted no lynch before anyone explained why it was good

Yes, partly, but perhaps I'm not making the other part of my point clear:

In 1085 she said she initially thought the exact same thing as me about Thor's post (that it was bad, anti-town etc).

She made no comment about Thor's post despite her's being the one immediately after it. Not only that, but she also immediately voted no-lynch, which is in-keeping with want Thor wanted, despite the fact she disagreed with him.

Like, if she thought the same as me about Thor's post (that it was bad, anti-town etc) why not at least mention it in her following post? Why just go along with it if she sincerely disagrees?

[Luca Blight]

oh, i get what you're asking now. you're asking why, when i realized the original intent (ie when i realized that thor was suggesting to end the day with no discussion), i didn't say something to the effect of my disagreement, correct?

Not quite - you said you 'initially thought the same' as me - meaning as soon as you saw Thor's post (whatever you thought his intentions may be) you already disapproved of it.

Am I wrong in interpreting this?

[Luca Blight]

I see, that makes a bit more sense I guess.

[Luca Blight]

Anyone have any thoughts as to why Lucca was the optimum kill for scum?

[Luca Blight]

@mod, can we get a vc / updated list of players alive?

Not really liking how NSG posts this and leaves without interacting with anyone.

What are you thinking, NSG?

preliminary thoughts: i will probably be treating ucv as town for today when choosing a lynch. i think it's unfortunate that lucca was the nightkill, from what i know about his playstyle and from what he said it seemed like he had a lot prepared to say today.

This bit jumps out at me with regards to the Lucca kill - NSG obviously saw something with Lucca that others missed.

Also, why is she treating UVC as Town today? I skimmed through her previous posts and can't see her mention UVC much, Is she just parroting what I've been saying?

[Luca Blight]

i feel like i have actively ruined this game. i came in, got someone a lot of people townread lynched and will now probably get my own slot lynched. town probably would have had a better chance if i just let myself die. this isn't even to comment how on poorly i read cheeky.

anyways, here we are with our conftown dead and the promised two weeks to sort things out. hopefully we can still make something out of this. if town can win anyways i might be able to make up for it all.

This post feels really weird to me.

Would NSG be saying this if she was Town and genuinely believed her in her case on Cheeky? I mean, everyone's different, but never have I had such self-conscious feelings as Town following a mislynch - if I genuinely believe in my case on someone and they flip town, I tend to be more annoyed at the other person for not conveying their towniness better rather than beating myself up so pathetically in the thread.

I'm just asking what the purpose of this post is? It feels like she has a real guilty mindset, but not in a townie way.

[Luca Blight]

And then she follows it up with more self-consciousness and excuses:

for this game more than others, i think i've found myself thinking "i really want to believe this" a lot. as the deadline grew closer and closer and as we waited in twilight for the flip, i really wanted it to be true that cheeky was scum. if that wasn't true, then not only did it mean i got a townie lynched (and probably myself tomorrow), it also meant that my read on cheeky was totally off. after cheeky had flipped, i found myself really wanting to believe that thor was town. if that wasn't the case and thor wasn't town, it meant that i was getting manipulated

before i was even in the game

. i don't think i'll be wanting to believe things anymore. hopefully i can approach everything from a fresh perspective and get to the core of issues.

a no lynch here is definitely the right choice. no matter who gets killed it's going to be good in terms of information. i'd like everyone to check in and get their thoughts in first before anyone ends the day, but i'm confident this is correct.
VOTE: no lynch

In both posts she mentions that she thinks she will be lynched next. All this explaining her mindset and worrying about being lynched makes her seem survivalistic already.

It just reads really fake to me.

[Luca Blight]

And yeah, that's all I have on NSG so far.

The case on her is mainly gut to be honest - her case on Cheeky was actually Ok, but it's NAI considering she thought it all up before even receiving her role pm. Her reaction to the flip reads fake to me, and I don't see a townie motive behind the posts - she seems like she's just trying to make excuses so people don't jump on her for lynching Cheeky.

I also really want her to explain why she's treating UCV as Town as I didn't see her mention him as a townread anywhere before - it feels like she saw me townreading him and decided to copy my stance.

Anyway, I'll try to get to reasons why I Townread UCV next.

[Luca Blight]

UCV

1) His hammer on Assemble, while absolutely horrid, was not something I see scum doing on D1 as I said earlier, particularly newbscum.

2) His explanation in 324 I think is an accurate portayal of what a a newbscum's mindset would be in this situation. 330 feels like genuine frustration at Assemble's lack of posting that lead to UCV's hammer.

3) 460 is another accurate break-down of the mindset I would expect from newbscum. The quick-changing opinion from AssembleTown to AssembleScum doesn't seem something that scum could pass off naturally.

4) When being attacked by Cheeky, I would expect a player like UCV as scum to become desperate and panic, yet he seems fairly composed in posts such as 492 and 560.

5) I kind of like the way he isn't too attached to his reads - a townread can become a scumread very quickly, and vice-versa (this is something that can also be a scumtell if it comes across as calculated/disingenuous, but it doesn't in this case).

So yeah. Maybe I can delve deeper if need be but I really don't see him being scum this game.

[Luca Blight]

EBWOP:

2) NewbTown, not Newbscum.

[Luca Blight]

I'm inclined to agree with Toto's claim that BlackVoid's replace-out makes him very likely Town (also BlackVoid in general looked pretty Townie, and Toto likewise).

So really from my position, if I have faith in my UCV read, it must mean NSG and Thor are thereby the scumteam.

I need to check associatives and the like just to be sure but this seems legit.

[Luca Blight]

Phone posting so can't go into specifics, but thinking Thor is the safer kill; he is the only one who could theoretically be voyager's partner if I was wrong there, as he put Clemency to L-1 as I mentioned before which I don't see scum doing to scum in that situation.

[Luca Blight]

If everyone can give their current reads/thoughts while I catch-up then that would be helpful.

I think Toto is town.
I think we should lynch Voyager.
How would you rule yourself out from being a partner with Voyager?

Well I can personally rule it out pretty easily just by looking at my role PM.

As for everyone else, that's something they have to judge for themselves. I believe Toto is Town so it's up to him if he believes me or you.

People should actually stop talking and sheep me.

Vote: No Lynch

This is terrible - a no-lynch is acceptable is this situation, but to want it done immediately without using any of the day to find scum/produce more content seems something scum would wish for.

I don't agree with how you think No Lynch is best played.
If you're no lynching - then by definition town can't have a consensus clear townread (or else town is derp).
In that case, any conversation only helps scum figure out who most people consider town.
So why have the conversation exactly?

If I was scum in that position I would be happy just ending the day right there and then and trusting my instincts based on the information already available to make the correct kill. It's just less time that scum need to pretend, and to give them a completely free pass is just bad in my opinion.

I don't think you're scum for holding this view as lucca thought the same and he obviously wasn't scum, but that's just my view on the matter.

Thor, you saw my case on why I believe UVC is town. Try and convince me otherwise.

[Luca Blight]

Thor, you saw my case on why I believe UVC is town. Try and convince me otherwise.

Your case begins and ends with calling him a newbie.
It's not much of a case, I'm surprised it sells you, it certainly doesn't sell me.

This isn't entirely true.

1) His hammer on assemble - I don't see scum doing this here regardless of experience. A newb in their first scumgame is even less likely however, because they will likely be extra cautious, in my opinion.

5) The way his reads change again isn't dependent on experience - it just comes across as genuine as opposed to calculated.

The other three points were made with his experience in mind, but why not? He is/was a noob, and his explanation regarding his mindset such as in 460 is pretty accurate to what I would expect from newbtown.

A lot of it is gut as I mentioned, but I don't see him being scum.

[Luca Blight]

1) His hammer on assemble - I don't see scum doing this here regardless of experience. A newb in their first scumgame is even less likely however, because they will likely be extra cautious, in my opinion.

5) The way his reads change again isn't dependent on experience - it just comes across as genuine as opposed to calculated.

The other three points were made with his experience in mind, but why not? He is/was a noob, and his explanation regarding his mindset such as in 460 is pretty accurate to what I would expect from newbtown.

A lot of it is gut as I mentioned, but I don't see him being scum.

1. I tend to find Newbie scum to be more brazen on average, not less. Where do you draw your conclusion from? There's a reason my #1 bit of newbie scum advice is 'don't push lynches'. It's because Newbie scum always think they need to.

5. I agree it's not based on experience, but I laugh at the idea it looks genuine. You're spitting on me and telling me it's raining. He changes his reads every thirty seconds on random whims - yet is always pushing a top wagon, and everyone he has leapt on has flipped town.

I agree that you successfully argued that he is a newb.

I agree that a lot of it is gut and unsupported - yet when I suggest it's unsupported your opening comment to me is "This isn't entirely true"
You know how else you can say that? "This isn't entirely false."
Which means you know I had a point in how empty your case was, but don't want to actually address the empty elephant in the room.

I have theories for why that is - but I want to lynch UCV first because I'm much more confident there.

1) From my experience, Newbs tend to hold back as scum (a bit like how Clemency has played in this game) and would be scared to pull the trigger.

5) Look at UVC's town meta and tell me he doesn't do the same.

I townread UVC, you want him lynched - therefore the onus is on you to convince me he is scum, not the other way around.

[Luca Blight]

As for everyone else, that's something they have to judge for themselves. I believe Toto is Town so it's up to him if he believes me or you.

Okay - why do you rule out NSG and Voyager as scumbuddies?
I find it fairly suspect you'll cite Voyager, then soft town read him, cite NSG but want to lynch me first, and the only apparent logic is partner pairings, but your pairings feel strategic rather than deductive.

I already said why - I don't see scum bussing in the situation I mentioned earlier.

It is deductive - if I believe my townread on UCV and Toto is town because of the BlackVoid replace out, from my position you and NSG must be scum.

[Luca Blight]

But yeah, I'd probably be Ok with lynching either Thor or NSG at this point.

Thor - sell me Voyager's lynch over NSG.

[Luca Blight]

The fact Thor has come in and targeted UVC (who he probably thought would be lynchbait in LYLO) over NSG ties in well with my theory that they are indeed the scum-pairing.

Also note how NSG hasn't explained why she is treating UCV as Town today despite my asking twice. I'm pretty sure the only reason she took that position is because I had already - she hadn't mentioned a townread on UVC previously.

[Luca Blight]

+ One thing you could try is try to convince others why whoever you replaced was town (same as I did).

As for this one, the way Deimos played shouted Town to me. When I was reading I was actually disappointed I replaced into this slot as it would have been a clear townread for me.

If anyone wants to argue reasons why Deimos looked scummy then go ahead.

[Luca Blight]

If we're lynching with predecessors in mind then NSG is the safest lynch - I'm not sure anyone can dispute that Clemency was the scummiest out of the original players?

I will dig up some evidence all the same.

[Luca Blight]

Possibly, but it looks very dubious when you suddenly say this:

preliminary thoughts:

i will probably be treating ucv as town for today when choosing a lynch.

i think it's unfortunate that lucca was the nightkill, from what i know about his playstyle and from what he said it seemed like he had a lot prepared to say today.

With no reasoning behind it, nor any prior townread of that slot, just after I myself had stated my townread on UCV

As I said, it feels like you were just parroting what I said and it doesn't seem genuine.

[Luca Blight]

I'm not sure about NSG.

The lack of defense here is worrying me.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

[Luca Blight]

Case on Clemency

Alright, 12 minutes to shitpost while I should be working on my English thing in class.

Honestly, I'm liking both Deimos and Cheeky so far. I feel like scum is more likely to come from the people who haven't been heavily pushed yet, I'm excited to actually try playing proactive town this game.

Plotinus has that very comfortable trustworthy town vibe, and that always puts me in a bit of paranoia.

UNVOTE:

I really dislike this post - it doesn't do anything to progress the game at this point, and his point about scum being more likely to come from people who haven't been pushed makes literally no sense - why would scum be less likely to be pushed than Town?

The fact he said he excited to 'try playing proactive town' pings me as well; why mention 'town' here? Why not just say 'play proactively?' It reads fake to me.

Rolling my eyes right now.

I don't like this tone. Don't like it, don't like it, not one bit.

Perhaps a bit hypocritical coming from me, but this makes me feel like you're playing the game as someone trying to defend themselves entirely rather than somebody who wants to catch the scum and win the game. Sure, there can be town motivation in clearing your own slot as town, to help with the process of elimination, but being that condescending clears that thought from my mind. Give us your reads, if you have any.

He makes the point against Assemble that he's playing defensively and not trying to catch scum, but isn't this a natural thing to do when you are being heavily suspected yourself? And it's not as if Clemency is doing a whole lot to find scum himself at this point - he's not voting anyone, and hasn't applied any sort of pressure on anyone up until this post, which itself is a complete overreaction to the 'tone' of Assemble's post, in my opinion.

Also, I'll be keeping my focus on Zemaj's slot, something seemed off about it to me, but I can't fully place my finger on it yet.

He makes so many vague posts like this. He says he's keeping his focus on the Zemaj slot, but how exactly is he doing so? He's not doing anything to pressure said slot.

I'm not sitting on the sidelines, the wagon I want to be on is L-1.

Yes, he is sitting on the sidelines - again, he's not putting any pressure on Assemble or following up on his suspicion, nor is he doing so on the slot he was supposed to be focusing on (Zemaj). He is literally doing nothing but sitting back and watching Town bury itself.

Well, here I was trying to build up the energy to post, and you two covered all my bases for me.
VOTE: Voyager

Into D2, and once again he goes for the easy wagon while sheeping the reasons of others. Again, he is doing nothing to show any sort of town motivation at this point.

While I don't know if I like the idea of Voyager in LyLo(no offense), I feel like I should play a bit of devil's advocate here, so scum doesn't get another free mislynch.

While it may seem scummy, the defense that he simply didn't know he had to claim can't be discredited. Considering how new his account is, I'd assume it's his first game here.
We all had our eyes on Assemble(Well, most of us) and I was about ready to claim intent myself.

I wouldn't blame anyone for hammering Assemble, due to how he was playing so apathetically, like he was just bored scum that got caught early. The 'online but not posting' thing especially got to me.
Perhaps this was due to a lack of motivation, or other matters, but he was the best option at a time.

I don't necessarily think Voyager is innocent, but I want to create a counter-argument so if he's scum, he's taken down by facts rather than gut.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Given Clemency is still voting UCV here, what is the purpose of this post? Obviously not to act as a defence. It's like a disclaimer for after UCV flips so he can say 'well I did consider he might be town'.

I think they're reasonable considering my silence the past few days.

I never said you didn't use facts. I just want to make sure that he gets an argument to defend himself, and if I can't defend him well enough to compete, I'll vote on him.

I'm convinced there was scum in the Assemble wagon.

Another horrible post. Clemency says he wants to make sure UCV has an argument to defend himself, but if Clemency can't defend him well enough he'll vote him? Wtf is this mindset?

And he's convinced there's scum on the Assemble wagon? That's convenient given Clemency wasn't there (eve though he said he wanted to be). He thought Assemble was scum, so why wouldn't it be reasonable for other townies not to think so also?

This came just after the fake hammer on UCV - as my predecessor pointed out, how did he know it was a bad decision? Especially as Clemency was not only scunmreading UCV but also voting him himself.

[Luca Blight]

Possibly, but it looks very dubious when you suddenly say this:

preliminary thoughts:

i will probably be treating ucv as town for today when choosing a lynch.

i think it's unfortunate that lucca was the nightkill, from what i know about his playstyle and from what he said it seemed like he had a lot prepared to say today.

With no reasoning behind it, nor any prior townread of that slot, just after I myself had stated my townread on UCV

As I said, it feels like you were just parroting what I said and it doesn't seem genuine.

i have my own reasons and i didn't really feel the need to give a long explanation, especially given that i was just giving preliminary thoughts. unless you're suggesting that i'm partners with ucv,

what exactly do i gain as scum by sheeping someone else's conftown read?

like, if you're not going somewhere with this point then is there a reason you keep bringing it up, besides perhaps to subtly cast my slot in an untrustworthy light?

back to working on my case, then.

Bolded

- UCV would no longer be considered an easy lynch target by yourself, and by treating him as town you could gain his trust.

And you don't feel the need to explain why you're treating someone as Town in LYLO? Seriously?

The reason I keep bringing it up is because it seems like a fabrication; not genuine. I believe you copied my stance on UVC in an attempt to curry favour with him.

[Luca Blight]

How does NSG's position on UCV indicate 'lack of assurance' and 'paranoia'?

[Luca Blight]

The only 'bold claim' I have made is my townread of UCV, so why is Thor ignoring that NSG has done the exact same thing (minus the reasoning?)

[Luca Blight]

How does NSG's position on UCV indicate 'lack of assurance' and 'paranoia'?

Her position on me without locking is pseudo partners does.
Because the only way I'm scum is if you or UCV (who you claim she both town reads) are my partners.
She doesn't have a pretty little bow case though, does she?
Hence - paranoia. She's attacking me because she's spooked.

I wasn't talking about you - I was asking how her view on UCV comes from someone who is paranoid and lacks assurance? She is willing to treat him as town for no apparent reason.

The only 'bold claim' I have made is my townread of UCV, so why is Thor ignoring that NSG has done the exact same thing (minus the reasoning?)

As long as we ignore that random clear becoming a scum team, and that she hasn't doubled down on it or dodged my question about the logic being used to clear people - yeah, what you and she did is identical.
This also ignores that I'm still listing her as a scumspect in order to straw man the attack on me for "clearing" her.
Any other words to put in my mouth?

I also note you ducked providing the examples I asked for, or justifying why me/Clemency makes sense.

You're the one putting words in my mouth - I didn't say you 'cleared' her, I was stating the fact you sucmread me for 'bold-claims' but lean more town on NSG despite making the same bold claims.

Underlined

- I'm gonna copy your argument strategy and turn the question around on you. How about you show me examples of scum hammering like UCV did in this game?

You and Clemency make sense from POE as I said, but I believe there is also in-thread evidence (limited possibly due to Plot's illness) that I will get to shortly.

[Luca Blight]

I wasn't talking about you - I was asking how her view on UCV comes from someone who is paranoid and lacks assurance? She is willing to treat him as town for no apparent reason.

By that logic she is claiming that you and I are scumbuddies.
Are you thinking she's claiming that?

Err yes, she clearly is in 1141.

Underlined

- I'm gonna copy your argument strategy and turn the question around on you. How about you show me examples of scum hammering like UCV did in this game?

Is this an admission that you can't back up your logic?
Because if you say 'yes' then I'll do it.
If you say 'no' then what's the point of doing it?
I'm saying I've never barely ever seen what you're saying you've learned is the common play - so I want to know why you think something I think is illogical.

Again, the onus is on

you

to convince

me

UVC is scum - if you genuinely believe in your read and genuinely believe NSG might be his scum partner then you would do this.

Also, showing evidence of scum hammering as UVC did is a lot more clear cut than showing evidence of scum playing cautiously. I'm sure you can appreciate that?

[Luca Blight]

So you bring up that one post Lucca made on my predecessor, but ignore the several he made openly scumreading your slot? He was less suspicious after your replace-in, but stated he still didn't like your slot.

Also note how both Thor and NSG are suspecting each other but leaning scum more on me - classic scumteam tactic of distancing while homing in on a possible compromise mislynch.

[Luca Blight]

Also note how both Thor and NSG are suspecting each other but leaning scum more on me - classic scumteam tactic of distancing while homing in on a possible compromise mislynch.

Also ignore the fact I'm blatantly not advocating your lych?
What the hell dude - this is utter BS as a claim.

Hence the word 'compromise'.

When push comes to shove Toto is going to have to vote somebody, and between the two of you you're trying to make sure I'm ahead of your scum partner when he makes that decision.

[Luca Blight]

i did reply - 1124.

I was mostly talking about his last post, but you are right you had mostly addressed his case.

If you don't mind, please reply to why you thought we should treat UCV as town at the start of the day. You can do this after you post your case post if you want.

there are a few reasons. one is that i think he's been being used by scum as mislynch bait, so that obviously makes me read him as town. another, and this is the main one really - i think i have a good enough idea of ucv's meta (both town and scum) to say that the typical self-conscious style he exibits as scum hasn't been present this game. you can argue about the actions of hammering the jailkeeper to be scummy as many already have, but at the end of it i think it's all best explained as being newbtown rather than scum.

Yep, so basically you're parroting me...

[Luca Blight]

Err yes, she clearly is in 1141.

And you think that pairing makes sense outside of paranoia?

Why not?

Again, the onus is on

you

to convince

me

UVC is scum - if you genuinely believe in your read and genuinely believe NSG might be his scum partner then you would do this.

The onus is on you to back up a claim you made.
I made a pretty direct and straightforward offer about providing exactly what you're asking for, all you need to do is agree or back up an argument I'm not seeing.

As UCV isn't being lynched without you doing some work convincing, the onus most definitely is on you.

If UCV is about to be lynched and I don't believe he should be,

then

the onus would be on me.

Also, showing evidence of scum hammering as UVC did is a lot more clear cut than showing evidence of scum playing cautiously. I'm sure you can appreciate that?

Not if your argument is that one is super common.
Which is what you're saying, right? I'm not misrepresenting that, am I?

No, even though it's common, if it also open to interpretation, whereas your evidence of scum hammering as UCV did in this game isn't - it would be an undisputed fact.

[Luca Blight]

So you bring up that one post Lucca made on my predecessor, but ignore the several he made openly scumreading your slot? He was less suspicious after your replace-in, but stated he still didn't like your slot.

Also note how both Thor and NSG are suspecting each other but leaning scum more on me - classic scumteam tactic of distancing while homing in on a possible compromise mislynch.

where did lucca say that he still didn't like my slot? he said that the actions of clemency were still scummy but that he liked my case, that i had excellent points and overall "a town entrance". also, i know that i'm town - obviously i'm not making a scumcase on myself.

funny you should mention that - seems to me like you and thor are doing the same thing! interesting that you bring it up, was it on your mind perhaps? also, where in my post did you get that i'm leaning scum more on you than on thor?

You might not make a case on yourself, but how can you interpret the NK as incriminating me for one general comment lucca made on my slot after the intense scumreading of your slot when it was held by Clemency? You can see your point doesn't hold water.

And you implied you're leaning scum on me more than Thor here:

but given the lack of talking yesterday he never really got a chance to say anything further. Thor is trying to paint this kill as nonsensical, but I think it makes total sense from the perspective of,

if not a Thor/Luca scumteam, at least Luca as scum.

Lucca does a lot of gamesolving late game - him being dead is a major blow to town and a major benefit to scum.

[Luca Blight]

Voyager, what are your thoughts on everything?

[Luca Blight]

describe this plan to me, exactly?

they each vote eachother

and the lack of a quickhammer confirms them as scum to

eachother

?

what do we gain out of this, exactly? and is what we gained worth risking the chance of a quickhammer? i think i would rather just vote a collectively agreed upon scumread.

Scumslip?

NSG knows already that Thor will choose to 1v1 me instead of her as they are scum buddies.

[Luca Blight]

When she says 'they each vote eachother' she is clearly already thinking of it as Luca v Thor; she isn't even considering that she might be picked.

[Luca Blight]

This is even more strange given she believes me and Thor are scum partners - if this is a genuine belief, why isn't she automatically thinking of it as being her v Thor?

[Luca Blight]

And notice how Thor is so reluctant to 1v1 anyone but Voyager - this is because if he 1v1's me it adds considerable weight to my assertion that Thor and NSG are a scumteam, and if he 1v1's NSG scum are losing a member either way.

[Luca Blight]

I certainly wouldn't use the word 'they' which would imply I'm not involved.

I strongly believe 'they' (Thor and NSG) are scum partners meaning we (Thor and me) will almost certainly be doing the 1v1.

If NSG genuinely believed me and Thor are partners she wouldn't have phrased her question as such.

[Luca Blight]

As soon as I read your 1v1 idea my mindset was already 'Luca v Thor' as I know he is very unlikely to pick his scum partner.

NSG's 1200 post: "

They each vote each other

" and "

confirms them as scum to each other

" - please tell me how she is displaying the same kind of mindset here? She is talking about the 1v1 as if she already knows she isn't directly involved.

[Luca Blight]

If NSG and Voyager are partners, how does NSG already know Thor will pick me for the 1v1?

I really believe she wouldn't have the mindset I described above if she and Thor weren't prtners.

[Luca Blight]

Are you sure she wasnt just thinking about it from a objective 3rd party point of view?

Can't you see my point? Why would she think that way if she genuinely believes me and Thor are partners?

I genuinely believe she and Thor are partners and I already see it as me v him - whether by 'they' she directly means me and Thor, or whether she is talking from an objective standpoint, she is not displaying the sort of mindset she should be in her alleged position.

[Luca Blight]

I certainly wouldn't use the word 'they' which would imply I'm not involved.

I strongly believe 'they' (Thor and NSG) are scum partners meaning we (Thor and me) will almost certainly be doing the 1v1.

If NSG genuinely believed me and Thor are partners she wouldn't have phrased her question as such.

how do you think i would have phrased it if i genuinely believed you two are partners (i do)?

You would already be thinking of it as you v Thor.

The use of 'they' sounds like you are talking about me and Thor already, but even if you make out it's from an objective standpoint it still betrays your position of being convinced me and Thor are partners.

@Toto

- maybe it's not as clear to you as you're not in the same position as me, but when I was reading the thread in real-time my mindset was already in 1v1 mode against Thor, which made her use of 'they' really stand out to me.

[Luca Blight]

Also, luca and nsg. Why is THor and UCv not possible?

I read UVC as Town - if he turns out to be scum then I've misread him terribly and I will accept that, but I'm pretty convinced Thor and NSG are scum together.

If we lynch one of Thor and NSG tomorrow and me and UVC are still around, I will review him again tomorrow but definitely not lynching today.

[Luca Blight]

You realize you are both agreeing on many things and making my life harder

Well she was the one who initially parroted my townread and reasons for it on UCV

[Luca Blight]

*slow clap*

Your post was a matter of seconds ahead of mine. Congratulations.

[Luca Blight]

Please explain why confidence is a problem with me but not with NSG?

She is every bit 'confident' as I am in her reads.

[Luca Blight]

The reason I'm trying hard to push stuff is because I lost the last LYLO I was involved with as Town basically as a result of being V/LA at the time and unable to push as I would like, and I'm determined it won't happen again.

[Luca Blight]

So you're saying your accusation of 'parroting' is comparable to mine?

Don't me me laugh.

[Luca Blight]

EBWOP: Don't make me laugh.

[Luca Blight]

I'm still wondering why confidence is a problem with me but not with NSG...

[Luca Blight]

How can you push 'too much' when you genuinely believe in your scumread?

[Luca Blight]

Im saying it looks somewhat fake from my pov. I can buy the confbias argument. Just make sure to keep an open mind if you are town.

I know when exactly to keep an open mind and when to have faith in my reads, and now is the time for the latter.

Please tell me exactly what you think is fake about my push.

[Luca Blight]

No, you said my push looked fake and I wanted to know what exactly was fake about it.

Is it not more believable that I would push both the players I think are scum pretty equally as I have been doing, and unlike NSG has been doing?

[Luca Blight]

What do think of Clemency’s devils advocate post about UCV?

I already gave my thoughts on Clemency in 1147.

[Luca Blight]

i can offer why it looks fake - you're taking every possible opportunity to call me scummy on things that can incredibly reasonably be explained as town. you calling my read on ucv parroting, the whole thing with my "no lynch" vote, my "scumslip" - you're focusing so much on these things that really don't mean anything. to me it seems like scum just throwing everything they can out there to see what sticks, and to take advantage of the psychological principle that a point people hear more is one that's more likely to remain in their mind. you even took the opportunity of a discussion on how you're pushing people too much to push me with the "unlike nsg has been doing" comment.

My accusation of parroting against you holds water given you said nothing positive on UCV's slot previous to that and you only gave that opinion after I gave mine, but without reasons. When you were finally pushed to give reasons you just echoed mine also.

The scumslip means everything, and Toto would see it if he looked at it from either my or your perspective - you wouldn't have said 'they' if you truly believed me and Thor are scumpartners; you would be assuming it would be you involved as I did.

[Luca Blight]

Toto, if you consider for a moment that I'm Town and genuinely believe Thor/NSG are the scumteam, I'm sure you can appreciate the frustration/impatience that might be reflected in some of my pushes.

[Luca Blight]

But yeah, if anything's making me paranoid about Voyager it's his lack of contribution since the heat's been off him.

Voyager, we need more input from you.

[Luca Blight]

Yeah, I guess in a way we're at a point where the discussion is becoming repetitive.

Toto, the time to make your decision is drawing nearer.

[Luca Blight]

I'm happy to vote either NSG or Thor right now.

I'll let Toto pick which one.

[Luca Blight]

How is me voting either NSG or Thor not going to be a 1v1?

Basically I want to display to you I have no preference over which one we lynch - I'll let you pick for me.

[Luca Blight]

Meh. I want to see more from Thor first.

Who would you vote btw?

I literally have no preference as I believe they are both scum.

[Luca Blight]

NSG, you up for lynching Thor?

[Luca Blight]

Yes, I'm very enthusiastic about lynching scum.

[Luca Blight]

Your scum game is pretty good for a newer player to be fair, NSG. I might have believed it if from my position you weren't so obviously scum.

[Luca Blight]

So what actually is the plan here? Toto will vote someone after Thor says his piece?

[Luca Blight]

Fair enough.

[Luca Blight]

And if Thor refuses to 1v1 then you should also vote him.

[Luca Blight]

To be honest I think Thor's getting lynched whatever he does and this just gives him a last chance to wifom a bit.

I'm happy to lynch him now or whenever Toto gives the signal.

[Luca Blight]

Oooh what a rebel!

[Luca Blight]

If it's so funny then let's wait and see if there's a quickhammer.

I bet there won't be.

Doesn't mean he's scum though.

[Luca Blight]

Ok Thor, you have an hour to convince me UCV is scum or I'm voting you.

I think we can agree the onus is now most definitely on you

[Luca Blight]

Also, if UCV is town and I'm town or scum - seriously, I'm being derp hard bussed,

or the scum team is actively choosing to go up with terrible cases on me when they could sheep an actual functional case from me on UCV.
But there were zero takers.
That's too much derp in the town pool.

This is BS - NSG is hardly 'hard-bussing' you.

[Luca Blight]

I agree she's not bussing me
But feel free to tell me who she's advancing *more* to lynch than me.
I'll wait.

Because if I'm her top scumspect....well...I'm kinda being bussed if I'm her partner, aren't I, Sherlock?

Until recently (pretty much when your slot became a lot cause) she was suspecting me every bit as much as she was suspecting you, and I would agree more so based on 1163.

And there's a difference between 'bussing' and 'distancing', which is what she was doing.

[Luca Blight]

EBWOP: Lost cause

[Luca Blight]

Bleh, autocorrect: 'Agree' should be 'argue'.

[Luca Blight]

Until recently (pretty much when your slot became a lot cause) she was suspecting me every bit as much as she was suspecting you, and I would agree more so based on 1163.

She had me as higher before that.
And she had me as higher after.
So at best you are debating with me that at some stage I was not her theory primary target and thus I'm not being bussed?
Sure - you do you.

'Bussing' would be actively pushing your lynch - show me where she was doing that before recently.

[Luca Blight]

Until recently (pretty much when your slot became a lot cause) she was suspecting me every bit as much as she was suspecting you, and I would agree more so based on 1163.

She had me as higher before that.
And she had me as higher after.
So at best you are debating with me that at some stage I was not her theory primary target and thus I'm not being bussed?
Sure - you do you.

'Bussing' would be actively pushing your lynch - show me where she was doing that before recently.

For the sake of *this* comical hair splitting.
Define "recently".
Because you're already agreeing I'm right within a given time frame - define the time frame you're denying I'm right in.

Recently - Literally since you've been online.

[Luca Blight]

Thor, despite being a Mafiascum player since '09, seems to have trouble differentiating between 'distancing' and 'bussing'.

[Luca Blight]

Bussing, without votes in play, would be actively trying to lynch your scum partner.

If Thor and NSG are scum partners and she says 'I think Thor and Luca are the scumteam' that is not bussing - she isn't even advocating your lynch over mine. It's distancing, and pretty mild distancing at best.

[Luca Blight]

Luca, can you explain how your expressed position on Thor/NSG has been different from hers? I see only a mirror.

Seeing as I gave all my opinions before she did, shouldn't you be posing this question to her?

[Luca Blight]

Busy at the moment but gonna take time in a bit to make sure of my UVC read before committing my vote.

[Luca Blight]

Meh I'm bored. Pretty sure Thor's scum.

VOTE: Thor

[Luca Blight]

Hold on, something's making me think twice.

UNVOTE:

[Luca Blight]

My problem here is if scum is Thor/NSG then they are basically setting themselves up for the loss, as it stands; Thor would be lynched today and me and UCV would agree on an NSG lynch tomorrow. Would they, as scum, really play this poorly?

Basically I'm getting paranoid of a UCV/NSG scum team.

[Luca Blight]

If I'm to accept Thor and UCV aren't both scum, then NSG has to be scum either way, so she seems the safest lynch at the moment from my perspective.

[Luca Blight]

I skimmed through Thor's ISO and he doesn't seem to suspect UCV at all on Day Two - he even defends him against Cheeky.

Day Three obviously nothing much happened.

And here we are on Day Four and Thor comes in convinced UCV is scum, to the extent that he refuses to 1v1 me or NSG (one of which has to be scum from his POV) because he's so intent on Voyager.

The sudden switch here seems strange to me - it's as if he wanted to keep UCV alive until LYLO where he could pounce on what he considered to be lynchbait.

[Luca Blight]

Or is it still feasible Thor and UCV could be bussing each other?

Interested in what Toto thinks about all this.

[Luca Blight]

Your pedantry is really doing nothing to help you, regardless of your alignment. Anyway...

Actively
adverb
1.
in a deliberate and positive way.
"the company is actively looking for a buyer"
2.
in an energetic or vigorous way.
"they were actively engaged in supporting the war effort"

And I don't see anywhere where you clearly suspected UCV on day two. I saw some questioning, although pretty minimal.

If I'm wrong then feel free to point it out rather than resort to petty insults. As I said I only skimmed your ISO; I don't have time to read every word of every wall you have posted this game.

[Luca Blight]

And even if you did question him a bit, it doesn't explain the massive change in attitude towards UCV to now not only strongly scumread him but to actually refuse to consider lynching anyone else.

[Luca Blight]

There's too much wifom shit to put an exact scumteam right now I think. I'm going for the strategy of just lynching whoever I think is most likely to be scum today, and the same process Tomorrow, regardless of who is a likely partner.

Toto, do you agree that a Thor/NSG scumteam seems too easy from Town's perspective right now?

[Luca Blight]

Not really - you're the only one I can trust so I want to hear whether you agree/disagree with my musings.

I strongly thought NSG/Thor were scum, but if that's the case they're basically setting themselves up for the loss, which doesn't seem
right.

[Luca Blight]

I think in the end Toto should be the one to decide today's lynch. It's the only way scum cannot influence it.

[Luca Blight]

I'm also leaning UCV/NSG as scum too. I will post why shortly.

[Luca Blight]

what? guys - this is transparently luca realizing that maybe bussing isn't such a good idea. what happened to your justification of ucv as town? you're flip-flopping on your read and it's not because of any natural reasons, it's because you're getting concerned and want the game over now. you have endless posts describing both the rationale behind ucv as town and how me/thor makes so much sense as compared to me/ucv - what you're doing obviously reflects a scum change in strategy instead of a town change in opinion.

toto, why are you buying this? think critically not only about what luca is saying, but the potential motivation behind what he's doing. also, what's your case on me? why am i your top scumread?

Not really - if I was scum with Thor I would have no reason not to follow-through with the Thor lynch, and then me and UCV would agree to lynch you Tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

I made 1347 because it's true - he is the only conf town, therefore he is the only one who anyone can fully trust.

Notice how NSG is seeming increasingly desperate now we're suspecting a NSG/UCV scumteam, whereas she was quite mellow when we had her/Thor as scum partners.

[Luca Blight]

I'm also leaning UCV/NSG as scum too. I will post why shortly.

wtf. This entire day, you have been town reading me until Toto says i might be scum and you realize that is three to get me lynched!

This is plain wrong - Toto has been saying you might be scum all day - that hasn't had any influence on my read of you.

I explained why I changed my mind - a Thor/NSG scumteam just appears

too easy

to be true.

[Luca Blight]

what? guys - this is transparently luca realizing that maybe bussing isn't such a good idea. what happened to your justification of ucv as town? you're flip-flopping on your read and it's not because of any natural reasons, it's because you're getting concerned and want the game over now. you have endless posts describing both the rationale behind ucv as town and how me/thor makes so much sense as compared to me/ucv - what you're doing obviously reflects a scum change in strategy instead of a town change in opinion.

toto, why are you buying this? think critically not only about what luca is saying, but the potential motivation behind what he's doing. also, what's your case on me? why am i your top scumread?

Not really - if I was scum with Thor I would have no reason not to follow-through with the Thor lynch, and then me and UCV would agree to lynch you Tomorrow.

one explanation is that you're getting cold feet about lynching thor (your scumbuddy) and you're not confident enough in your ability to pull off my mislynch tomorrow. another could be that you just want the game over faster so you're switching to what seems to be the easier lynch to push through. honestly? i'm not entirely sure why the sudden switch, but my main bet is that it was thor's comments about how scum are derp for hard bussing.

The reasons I gave for my 'sudden switch' are quite clear - you and Thor make less sense as partners than I initially thought.

If me and Thor were partners the game would already be won - UCV was in full agreement of a Thor/NSG scumteam and you would have been lynched the following day.

[Luca Blight]

I think me and NSG can be ruled-out as partners now - there has been no quickhammer and we're both online.

[Luca Blight]

You weren't at all desperate when it was considered you and Thor were a scumteam - that would also have ended in a loss from your POV if you're town.

As for the buddying thing - I genuinely want to know Toto's opinion as he's the only one I can trust. Whether you accept it or not I couldn't really give a shit as I'm pretty sure you're scum.

[Luca Blight]

So I, as scum, would suddenly change my opinion on everything I've been saying/pushing all day just on the off chance UCV might change his mind on his solidly locked-in view of 'Thor/NSG' as a scumteam?

That's pretty ridiculous.

[Luca Blight]

If UCV had shown some hesitancy at least then your argument might hold some water, but he has shown no signs that he is doubting his view of a NSG/Thor scumteam.

What reason would I have to suddenly get cold feet as scum here?

[Luca Blight]

Regarding 1346 - That was in direct response to Toto wondering if I was asking for permission to vote UCV - I was explaining why I just wanted to hear his views on the matter.

[Luca Blight]

No, the safer strategy as scum would be to continue doing as I was doing - which would be a 90% at least chance of winning.

It would not be the safest play to suddenly change my mind on what I've been saying, throwing everything up into the air, possibly causing TownUCV to change his mind on me.

[Luca Blight]

This is getting repetitive.

I'm done arguing with scum, so if Toto has any questions I will address him directly.

[Luca Blight]

Is it possible .... you are both town?

I doubt it - look at her desperate reaction to my change of mind and her reachy arguments.

Would I as scum really have reason to suddenly change my mind here? My best bet as scum would be UCV's townread of me, and saying he is likely scum with NSG would likely have an affect on his opinion on me as well.

[Luca Blight]

It's a very reachy argument.

You won't even admit there might be Town motivation behind my switch as well - changing one's mind is a very townie thing to do, especially in LYLO where paranoia is rife.

[Luca Blight]

What do you mean 'is that all I have to say'? I've said what I need to, do you want me to keep repeating myself?

You're basing me being scum with Thor on getting cold feet due to the slender chance UCV might change his currently solid view of a Thor/NSG scumteam - this is reachy as anything.

As I said, doing this as scum would not have meant an easier victory - it would have made things less certain - it would have been an unnecessary risk, and if you were genuinely town you would acknowledge that fact. I outlined a very linear thought-process from the time I made my vote on Thor, to the point where I am now.

[Luca Blight]

I think NSG as Town would be reasonable enough to at least pause for a minute to consider my change of heart might be from a town perspective. I am ready to commit my vote.

VOTE: NSG

[Luca Blight]

Note that if NSG flips scum, I am confirmed town Tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

So I guess you don't think UCV + Thor can be a thing.

I did, until NSG's completely unreasonable reaction - she seems like a player who would be reasonable as Town, yet she completely disregards any chance of my change of heart being from a town perspective, and instead tries to twist it in any way she can into me being scum, even bringing up the ridiculous 'buddying' thing with you where I was merely asking for your opinion.

I just can't believe she is Town under these circumstances.

[Luca Blight]

And if you look through my posts you'll see a completely reasonable thought-process for why I changed my mind on a Thor/NSG scumteam.

[Luca Blight]

And for the record, I don't see any 'completely reasonable thought-process' behind your posts - in 1354 (your initial reaction to my change of mind) you had already made up your mind that I was 'scum getting concerned'.

[Luca Blight]

Whereas I have displayed a clear, linear thought-process and genuine reasons that justify my change of opinion:

Spoiler:

Meh I'm bored. Pretty sure Thor's scum.

VOTE: Thor

Hold on, something's making me think twice.

UNVOTE:

My problem here is if scum is Thor/NSG then they are basically setting themselves up for the loss, as it stands; Thor would be lynched today and me and UCV would agree on an NSG lynch tomorrow. Would they, as scum, really play this poorly?

Basically I'm getting paranoid of a UCV/NSG scum team.

If I'm to accept Thor and UCV aren't both scum, then NSG has to be scum either way, so she seems the safest lynch at the moment from my perspective.

I skimmed through Thor's ISO and he doesn't seem to suspect UCV at all on Day Two - he even defends him against Cheeky.

Day Three obviously nothing much happened.

And here we are on Day Four and Thor comes in convinced UCV is scum, to the extent that he refuses to 1v1 me or NSG (one of which has to be scum from his POV) because he's so intent on Voyager.

The sudden switch here seems strange to me - it's as if he wanted to keep UCV alive until LYLO where he could pounce on what he considered to be lynchbait.

Or is it still feasible Thor and UCV could be bussing each other?

Interested in what Toto thinks about all this.

There's too much wifom shit to put an exact scumteam right now I think. I'm going for the strategy of just lynching whoever I think is most likely to be scum today, and the same process Tomorrow, regardless of who is a likely partner.

Toto, do you agree that a Thor/NSG scumteam seems too easy from Town's perspective right now?

Not really - you're the only one I can trust so I want to hear whether you agree/disagree with my musings.

I strongly thought NSG/Thor were scum, but if that's the case they're basically setting themselves up for the loss, which doesn't seem
right.

[Luca Blight]

There are also other reasons I'm now leaning town on Thor which I'll get to later (providing no quick-hammer occurs).

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

Just in case.

[Luca Blight]

Luca Blight, you need to be ready to unvote if it looks like a quick hammer is about to happen! if NSG gets t l-1, unvote FAST unless it is toto who votes!

This is a weird post - for a quick-hammer to occur you and Thor would need to be a scum team.

[Luca Blight]

Your pedantry is really doing nothing to help you, regardless of your alignment. Anyway...

You whine about me being a pedant, and then offer a dictionary definition of a word that you're applying in a game term.
Fine, watch it become more pedantic - as you keep dodging the question you must know I'm asking;

How is what NSG did *not* trying to get me lynched (in an active way)?

You asked me to define the word - I thought the meaning of which was pretty clear.

NSG wasn't actively trying to get you lynched as she was very much on the fence between you and me - there is nothing to suggest she was pushing your lynch any harder than mine, and obviously given we're in LYLO only the next lynch is immediately of significance.

Anyway, this topic is getting outdated so I'd prefer if we left it there.

And I don't see anywhere where you clearly suspected UCV on day two. I saw some questioning, although pretty minimal.

If I'm wrong then feel free to point it out rather than resort to petty insults. As I said I only skimmed your ISO; I don't have time to read every word of every wall you have posted this game.

You are wrong.
What do I get if I quote it to you?
Will you promise to sheep me onto UCV?

Well if you've fully caught up you would see I am now very much less confident on my initial UCV read, so I may indeed 'sheep' you on that, if I can assure myself you are not scum partners yourselves.

And even if you did question him a bit, it doesn't explain the massive change in attitude towards UCV to now not only strongly scumread him but to actually refuse to consider lynching anyone else.

Well...

1. How "massive" is this change exactly? Like - are you claiming I town read him?
2. When did I refuse to consider lynching someone else? You're horribly misrepresenting my desire not to try to play a game between other scum reads in order to avoid voting my top scum read. You're also ignoring that I directly asked for reasoning as to why the plan would make sense, and explained why I felt it didn't, and that I got blown off. Yeah, I was *real* full of refusal.

1. If you could walk me through your read progression on UCV then that would be nice.

2. Plain and simply, you are intent on lynching UCV today and are not willing to consider an alternative lynch. I don't think that's misrepresenting you?

I made 1347 because it's true - he is the only conf town, therefore he is the only one who anyone can fully trust.

There is a difference between trust and accuracy.

Just as there is a difference between bussing and distancing

But yes, even though I'm aware my own reads are worth as much as Toto's, it's always helpful to get a second opinion from a source you can trust.

You weren't at all desperate when it was considered you and Thor were a scumteam - that would also have ended in a loss from your POV if you're town.

As for the buddying thing - I genuinely want to know Toto's opinion as he's the only one I can trust. Whether you accept it or not I couldn't really give a shit as I'm pretty sure you're scum.

for one, see the above post. for two, that wasn't about to end in my immediate lynch - i was (and still am) confident that when thor flips i can win it in lylo. in this situation, a lynch would happen on someone i know is mod-confirmed town - myself. i know for a fact that this will instantly end the game, so obviously i'm trying to avoid this.

What made you so certain that the NSG/UCV discussion would have resulted in your lynch first and that the Thor/NSG discussion would not have?

I endorse this question.

[Luca Blight]

Why can't I 1v1 UCV - you really need to justify that town read hardcore if you want me 1v1ing within derp.

This is not an unreasonable request or response - and I carried on the conversation with you for a few exchanges - and you didn't give me ANYTHING resembling a decent answer.
Your strongest point was "You debate better than UCV"

Well, quite frankly, looking at the thread, I debate better than NSG and Lucca also - so...?

You needed a town case.
You had nothing.
Thus the rule out was unsupported by any logic.

If your idea of debating is boring your opponent into submission by endlessly asking them to define every word of their argument in turn...

[Luca Blight]

1. No, even if you'd said 'bussing' instead of 'hard-bussing' I wouldn't have agreed with you. Bussing would be like what you're doing with UCV if you're partners - you are genuinely trying to get your partner lynched - the same doesn't apply to what NSG was doing if she was your partner. But if it stops this tedious discussion from continuing, then fine - you can be right on this one.

2. Maybe you have time to read and re-read everyone's ISO in minute detail, but I don't at the moment. Perhaps later I will have a bit of time, but I'm not sure why you don't just save everyone time and directly quote what it is you're referring to.

3. So what made you decide he is obv scum instead of lynchbait?

4. You considered the idea of lynching someone else, fine. You still chose to vote UCV regardless though and your current position seems to be that you're not budging from that vote.

5. Meh.

6. UCV? With a pinch of salt, perhaps. Toto seems a pretty reasonable player though and is certainly not coming to any rash conclusions.

7. Part of the problem is that whenever you do respond you are behind the play and a lot of what you are talking about loses relevance, hence why I asked for the discussion to be dropped. If this was a debating game then sure, I'd debate with you endlessly as you seem to enjoy doing, but so much of what you're saying isn't pertinent to what's actually going on in the game, nor is it helping me or presumably others ascertain a clearer read on you.

[Luca Blight]

Toto, can you order the possible scum pairings from most to least likely.

This would be mine at the moment:

Most likely

UCV/NSG
UCV/Thor
Thor/NSG
------------
Luca/Thor
Luca/UCV (almost impossible)
Luca/NSG (impossible)

Least likely

[Luca Blight]

@Toto:

I basically want you to agree with me that the scumteam is two of UCV/Thor/NSG so that we can work together and eventually pick who we think are the most likely scumteam.

[Luca Blight]

I'm still leaning towards lynching NSG; she looks like as safe a lynch as any, with the added benefit of having one confirmed Townie still alive Tomorrow to decide the final lynch.

[Luca Blight]

I'm just gonna go for it. If Thor/UCV are the scumteam then well done - your WIFOM did the trick.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: NSG

[Luca Blight]

The problem I have with voting Thor is that UCV/NSG seems like too much of a possibility.

[Luca Blight]

Fine.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: UCV

I gues we'll now find out if NSG and Thor were a scum team.

[Luca Blight]

Her not hammering of course wouldn't mean she is town.

[Luca Blight]

NSG why on Earth would you 'take it that UCV is Town' in this situation?

Don't tell me you're still 'treating him as town'.

[Luca Blight]

I also had a meta town read on UCV, but meta isn't a massively reliable tool, particularly when the player in question has so few scum gams to analyse.

I as scum could have gone along with the 'NSG/Thor' thing, but not only was I willing to change my mind based on my own initiative, I also ruled it out completely with my vote on UCV.

[Luca Blight]

And if UCV flips scum I have to be virtually cleared at that point.

[Luca Blight]

Bearing in mind the UCV/Thor possibility, this is a very dubious post:

hasnt Thor been saying i was his highest scum read other than Cheeky for a while. . .

At this point Thor should be conf scum to Voyager, yet it seems here he is soft-defending him.

[Luca Blight]

Not to mention this one after I voted NSG:

Luca Blight, you need to be ready to unvote if it looks like a quick hammer is about to happen! if NSG gets t l-1, unvote FAST unless it is toto who votes!

The only way a quick-hammer could occur here is if Thor/UVC were a scumteam.

[Luca Blight]

Yeah....I think it's fair to say the above is not the most convincing 'reaction' I've ever seen.

[Luca Blight]

NSG, any thoughts on the above or are you still intent on townreading UCV no matter what?

[Luca Blight]

Well from my perspective I'm not voting Thor today as UCV is confirmed scum to me, and from my position he could equally be your partner as he could be Thor's.

If you're intent on Thor then vote him - that way it will confirm me and UCV are not partners.

[Luca Blight]

If me and UCV were buddies I would have just gone along with the Thor lynch when literally everyone else in the game was willing to lynch him.

I'd say me and him are pretty much confirmed not partners, but it would be nice to have it officially confirmed nonetheless.

[Luca Blight]

If you look back from the perspective of a Luca/UCV scumteam you'll see I had no reason to change my mind on the Thor lynch if that was the case; if I hadn't changed my mind at that point then Thor was getting lynched without a doubt.

Yes, it could possibly be faked, but realistically? That would be like scum showboating - deliberately postponing the game for no reason.

[Luca Blight]

And it's not like I changed my mind for no reason either - I gave clear and valid reasons as to why I no longer believed in a Thor/NSG scumteam.

[Luca Blight]

UCV's play today has been very different from normal, which is what first made me doubt my townread on him. After being townread he had been playing very cautiously, hanging back in the shadows. I've never seen him do this as Town.

[Luca Blight]

That's a really poor excuse considering it hasn't affected you up until this game day.

As Town you normally just shit post regardless of the situation (this is an observation not a criticism) whereas today you appear to be very unsure of what to say.

This is even more odd given the position you were in earlier in the day - you were well townread, and I would expect a townie in such circumstances to step up and try to lead the town - but you've sunk further into the shadows as if afraid you might say something to make people doubt their read on you.

[Luca Blight]

NSG, if you're going to maintain your UCV townread then now's the time for you to justify it.

And if you're still at the conclusion that you want Thor lynched then vote him now so it at least clears me and UCV of being partners.

[Luca Blight]

1. I know for a fact this isn't UCV's first LYLO as I just played in a game where he was alive during LYLO.

2) UCV wasn't afraid though? He was pretty certain in his Thor/NSG scumteam earlier - he just wasn't posting anything.

3) Voting Thor now provides more information - just as it did when I voted UCV.

Was I certain you and Thor weren't partners when I voted UCV? Not even close, but I deemed it to be the least likely of the possible partneships and so I took the risk - and now the Town benefits from the extra information that wasn't available previously.

[Luca Blight]

Furthermore, UCV as Town would now know for sure the exact scum pairing, yet he's still doing nothing.

He literally has nothing to lose and everything to gain from posting/pushing who he knows to be scum, yet he is still doing nothing (contrary to how he plays as Town).

[Luca Blight]

Luca I think nsg’s point is that if we decide to lynch thor then you+ucv get cleared for free and clearing ucv+you now doesnt add much incremental value compared.

So basically we should decide on a lynch first.

Id be open to clear nsg before that. But need to grow

some balls

confidence that either thor is scum or nsg is town

But you can appreciate from my perspective I'm not going to accept a Thor lynch today when I know for a fact UCV is scum.

[Luca Blight]

I don't see Thor+UCV given how the day started.

Why would Thor throw UCV under the bus after you two had lock town reads on the slot?

Why would I throw UCV under the bus when Thor was on the verge of being lynched?

[Luca Blight]

I don't agree with it - if I did I would be adamant that NSG is his partner, but I also gave reasons earlier why I'm suspicious of Thor/UCV.

I didn't say me and UCV isn't possible, but it is the least likely of the possible scenarios and I find it frustrating we're wasting time even discussing it when I'd have had no reason to play as I did if I were his partner.

[Luca Blight]

Another way to put this. Suppose we clear you+ucv, we lynch scum!ucv and I get NKed. Who would you lynch tomorrow?

If I knew that I would say. Leaning NSG.

[Luca Blight]

Going out but will respond to the above later.

[Luca Blight]

NSG, I can see you're active on the site but have suddenly turned very quiet here.

Are you reconsidering your UCV read at all? Don't keep us in the dark.

[Luca Blight]

I love how Luca Blight has been lock-town me using meta for his reasoning and gut until he thinks he can pull off a UCV miss lynch!
He says my scum partner is NSG. I put Clemency at l-1 day 2 and had a decent case on the slot! The slot also voted me and was part of my wagon. How would that make since?
If I were scum. The only person who could be my partner is thor, you now.
Why would you vote your partner when a Thor miss lynch would have been 20 times easier?
This leaves Thor
Why would Thor be scum reading me throughout day 2 to now? Of me/Thor were scum. Why buss in a position like this? When we could have easily miss lynched NSG?

1) Your first line makes no sense - I townread you before NSG did during this game day and I changed my mind about your slot on my own initiative. If you want to directly challenge any of my reasoning behind my switch then go ahead.

2) Your view on Clemency has been weird all game. Thor is still a viable partner for you, but absolutely so is Clemency/NSG.

3) You haven't voted NSG today and have instead voted Thor.

4) You couldn't have 'easily' mislynched NSG if Thor is your partner.

[Luca Blight]

The question has to be asked: Is UCV behaving like a Townie who knows for certain the identity of the scumteam?

[Luca Blight]

Btw, the silence from NSG on UCV really is deafening - it's like she knows she's put all her eggs into the basket of townreading her partner, which probably seemed a safe plan after my initial townreading of UCV, but now she's being made to justify her townread by everyone in the game she doesn't know what to do.

[Luca Blight]

NSG has only been 'conf town' to you since I voted you - before that you were 'convinced' she was scum but didn't vote her.

[Luca Blight]

Anyway, it literally is pointless debating with someone who not only raises one nonsensical point after another, but who I also know to be scum.

The only question is who your partner is, and I'm still leaning NSG on that one.


P:edit: that's just BS - according to you earlier you were convinced of a NSG/Thor scumteam - don't try to rewrite history.

[Luca Blight]

After Thor voted you, yes it is acceptable for you to return the vote, but don't make out you were considering me as his partner before my vote on you - you were convinced of a Thor/NSG scumteam as I said.

[Luca Blight]

And I stand by my view that you are not acting like a townie who knows the identity of the scumteam - every post you make is reactionary and defensive.

[Luca Blight]

1) It was not only 'gut feeling' for my initial townreading of you - I gave clear reasons why I townread you in 1113.

2) Yes, I said you matched your town meta earlier (to be fair I haven't seen much of your scum meta) but during this game day you have been lurking in the shadows - that is not your town meta, and I expressed suspicion of this even when I was townreading you in 1248.

3) You can't accuse me of being scummy for doing a '180' on you when you've completely ignored the reasons I gave for changing my mind in the first place.

[Luca Blight]

I also want it to be noted that NSG is *still* active on site yet is *still* avoiding this game.

The reason I find this particularly suspicious is because I just had a game where NSG replaced into a scum slot right at the very end and didn't post anything, and later said her lurking was a genuine strategy to keep the heat off of her.

[Luca Blight]

Sigh.

This 1v1 only tells me uc is a newb.

This is what I was afraid, Thor. If you are scum that was a good play. Congrats.

Uc has all the symtoms of scum here. He is trying to convince luca he is town. If he is town Luca knows this already, and everything Luca and Thor do would look very scummy for him. But he is not telling me what those things are.

Uc if you dont do anythig townie in the next 24 hours Im going to lynch you. Lurking is not an option. For god sake if you are town make ar least one townie post this game.

what caused this change in opinion? i think you're making a serious mistake here. i want to give some context to the back and forths that have been had and just this situation in general - if we take it that ucv is town he is now in a 2v1 with two of the better mafia players on the site as a scumteam. i would trust that they have the skill - especially up against a newbie like ucv - to take almost any exchange and come out of it favorably. to get clearer reads look through the thread at previous posts when scum had less of an active agenda.

Again it begs the question, why should Toto automatically 'take UCV as Town'? You can't continue to justify your irrational townreading of UCV by continuously saying he's a newb - he would be a newb regardless of his alignment in this game.

I also want it to be noted that NSG is *still* active on site yet is *still* avoiding this game.

The reason I find this particularly suspicious is because I just had a game where NSG replaced into a scum slot right at the very end and didn't post anything, and later said her lurking was a genuine strategy to keep the heat off of her.

i haven't been avoiding this game - in addition to just being busy i've been treating it as carefully as i possibly can.

i can talk a bit about that game vs this one and why the strategy i employed there is completely different than anything going on here, if you'd like.

The game state might be different to that one, but the fact is I now know you employ strategic lurking as scum, so when I see you deliberately avoid the game when your opinion on UCV's slot is required, it increases the suspicion on you.

1) It was not only 'gut feeling' for my initial townreading of you - I gave clear reasons why I townread you in 1113.

2) Yes, I said you matched your town meta earlier (to be fair I haven't seen much of your scum meta) but during this game day you have been lurking in the shadows - that is not your town meta, and I expressed suspicion of this even when I was townreading you in 1248.

3) You can't accuse me of being scummy for doing a '180' on you when you've completely ignored the reasons I gave for changing my mind in the first place.

I also want it to be noted that NSG is *still* active on site yet is *still* avoiding this game.

The reason I find this particularly suspicious is because I just had a game where NSG replaced into a scum slot right at the very end and didn't post anything, and later said her lurking was a genuine strategy to keep the heat off of her.

LURKING!?!?!

holy shit, it isn't like i have the highest amount of posts or anything! not today, but throughout this entire game, i have been active and been contributing!

The second post wasn't about you, and as for the first - my point was you have been lurking today as opposed to the rest of the game - this isn't even up for dispute as you basically admitted it yourself earlier in 1249.

[Luca Blight]

The fact she won't even consider you might be scum based on a non-existent meta case and the fact you're a newb makes it increasingly likely she is your partner.

As I said, it feels like she saw me townreading you and decided to put all her eggs into the 'UCV is Town' basket, and now that basket has upended she doesn't know what to do - hence her lack of posting recently.

She wants to defend you as Town but is unable.

[Luca Blight]

I also completely refuted NSG's defence of UCV in her 1457 with my 1458 and she didn't even acknowledge it.

[Luca Blight]

The fact she won't even consider you might be scum based on a non-existent meta case and the fact you're a newb makes it increasingly likely she is your partner.

As I said, it feels like she saw me townreading you and decided to put all her eggs into the 'UCV is Town' basket, and now that basket has upended she doesn't know what to do - hence her lack of posting recently.

She wants to defend you as Town but is unable.

you keep saying this - that i "won't even consider" something, but it's plainly not true. just because i don't do some in-thread thought process theatre like you did in 1330 to 1335 doesn't mean i don't consider things. yeah, i considered whether a thor/ucv scumteam could be possible. if i'm wrong about you and thor (i don't think i am) i'd say it's probably the second most likely scumteam, but just because i come to different conclusions than you doesn't mean i'm not considering something.

how exactly has the basket been "upended"? you're acting like the conclusions that you've come to are facts that everyone has to accept or these objective truths that i can't find a way to work around, but there's really nothing to support that.

You can't just call my thought-process 'theatre' without saying what you think is fake about it - and again you're already assuming I'm scum here and that UCV is Town.

What is the second most likely scumteam?

The basket has been upended because you're no longer in a position where you can just coast on my townreading of UCV - you now have to justify your position and you aren't doing so.

[Luca Blight]

The fact she won't even consider you might be scum based on a non-existent meta case and the fact you're a newb makes it increasingly likely she is your partner.

As I said, it feels like she saw me townreading you and decided to put all her eggs into the 'UCV is Town' basket, and now that basket has upended she doesn't know what to do - hence her lack of posting recently.

She wants to defend you as Town but is unable.

. . .

have you considered the fact

1
I put the slot at l-1 yesterday! and was willing to lynch the slot because there were reasons to believe Clemency was scum

2
Clemency was on my wagon instantly on day 2!

3
i have been scum reading the slot for a while! Im not the biggest fan of busing! i don't like to do it because it puts scum at disadvantage!!!

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=73770&p=9722402#p9722402
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=73733
here is my flawless scum game where i said in mafia chat that i hated bussing! idk if that really matters because of how short the game was!

You do realise I know for a fact you're scum - so why are you trying to convince me NSG isn't your partner?

[Luca Blight]

The fact she won't even consider you might be scum based on a non-existent meta case and the fact you're a newb makes it increasingly likely she is your partner.

As I said, it feels like she saw me townreading you and decided to put all her eggs into the 'UCV is Town' basket, and now that basket has upended she doesn't know what to do - hence her lack of posting recently.

She wants to defend you as Town but is unable.

. . .

have you considered the fact

1
I put the slot at l-1 yesterday! and was willing to lynch the slot because there were reasons to believe Clemency was scum

2
Clemency was on my wagon instantly on day 2!

3
i have been scum reading the slot for a while! Im not the biggest fan of busing! i don't like to do it because it puts scum at disadvantage!!!

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=73770&p=9722402#p9722402
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=73733
here is my flawless scum game where i said in mafia chat that i hated bussing! idk if that really matters because of how short the game was!

You do realise I know for a fact you're scum - so why are you trying to convince me NSG isn't your partner?

this isn't just for you idiot! This is trying to explain to everyone that i am not scum!

Right, so you're conf town because you put Clemency on L-1 (even though your view on Clemency has been weird as f*ck all game) and because you once said you don't like bussing.

We can both play these games - if I was Thor's partner why would I hard townread you at the start of D4? Why would I risk switching back to you when you had NSG/Thor locked as a scumteam?

[Luca Blight]

Furthermore; why would I prematurely vote you when you were apparently still considering NSG/Thor as a scumteam, thus confirming us as being of opposing alignment?

[Luca Blight]

I've been trying to consider the possibility of a Thor/UCV scumteam, but NSG is making it hard with her irrational stance on UCV.

I'm pretty sure if she was Town she would at least be considering I might be Town and that UCV might be scum.

[Luca Blight]

Off the top of my head the only reasons I can see for townreading Thor are as follows:

1) He wasn't willing to appease the conf town - his comment that he wants to lynch his number one scumread instead of merely trying to survive another day seemed kind of genuine.

2) The fact I know UCV is scum and Thor has been pushing his lynch relentlessly since the start of D1. I'm still reluctant to accept this means he isn't UVC's partner, but it reflects well on him compared to NSG's stance.

I will look more into Thor Tomorrow if we're both still alive, but UCV is today's lynch.

[Luca Blight]

Alternatively NSG could just vote Thor (which reflects her position anyway) and when I don't hammer it clears me and UCV.

[Luca Blight]

Also Toto, please don't vote Thor when there is such a real chance of a UCV/NSG scumteam - stubbornness can come from Town just as much as it can from scum.

[Luca Blight]

If we lynch Thor today then Town will lose either way - if he's scum then UCV is his partner, and UCV and NSG would insta-lynch me tomorrow.

Basically if you believe I'm town then we need to a) clear me and UCV of being partners and b) lynch UCV.

[Luca Blight]

If we we lynch UCV and I'm alive tomorrow then I will consider both cases; I would not be insta-lynching anybody.

I'm not sure why you get the impression that I would.

[Luca Blight]

Whatever Thor says please let's just lynch UCV today. I will take my time sorting Thor and NSG Tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

You need to work on your reactions as scum; they read really fake.

You are confirmed scum to me and I'm not letting you slip through my grasp.

[Luca Blight]

Reaction tests are always worth considering, but the results of which have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Take Clemency's reaction in this game for example - it reads really fake.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: Clemency's fake reaction to being fake-hammered

Sorry.

Please tell us if you're town. It helps for making end-of-day readslists.

I'm town. It's most likely Deimos, I lost energy to play this game.

Who do you think is the partner?

Xnad or Voyager.

I'm town. It's most likely Deimos, I lost energy to play this game.

Does this mean we should go for the Voyager lynch instead?
I'm wondering if it's possible Clemency's reaction is fake.

Clemency's reaction sounds both fake and real

It sounds fake because Even someone as new as me could have noticed a fake hammer, but Clemency didn't acknowledge that fact.


What makes me think it is real is the fact he says he hasn't had the energy to make good posts. This feels real, but it also feels like an excuse ....

Overall....I find it fake......

What's the point of fake hammering if you're gonna consider the reaction fake anyway?

Also note how weird UCV's 767 is.

[Luca Blight]

I also completely refuted NSG's defence of UCV in her 1457 with my 1458 and she didn't even acknowledge it.

i have multiple tabs open working on different posts

right now

- the fact that i'm not as fast at typing these as you might be doesn't mean anything.

You're still active elsewhere on site yet I'm not seeing these posts you promised over four hours ago...