Newbie 1826 Basketball Game Over

[Thor665]

Greetings everybody, I'm the new Plotinus.

My initial thought is that I should just vote UC Voyager and demand a claim for the joy of it.

@UC Why are you the top scumspect at the moment?

Also, has anyone claimed BP yet?

[Thor665]

yea. Spartan.....

Good to know.

I think you should read through today and yesterday.......

I'm sure I'll get onto that any moment now (he lied sweetly to the Newbie, telling them what they want to hear).

Im getting A lot of pressure do to me hammering yesterday. And i have already Claimed VT. Im not sure which page though

Here is a way to put what went down

1- I replace in
2- I find a scum read on Peaches
3- I defend Assemble
4- I realize he is lurking and Hammer him without announcing it before hand and asking for claim.

On the Jailkeeper?
Yeah, wagon on you makes plenty of sense in microcosm.
How much play experience do you have?

So. Do what Plot couldn't do for us.

Can you give some reads (:

Sure - I town read Spartan

[Thor665]

ISOed Voyager quickly, not really feeling that one much at this stage, the hammer derp seems to make sense in context with her play experience being a derp speed site.

VOTE: CheekyTeeky

Hey, Cheeky, considering you were also clamoring for the Assemble lynch, and offered hammer, literally your entire issue with Voyager *has* to be entirely and only the lack of claim asked.
Explain to me, specifically, why that's scummy.
Or explain to me your case on Voyager that I'm missing.

[Thor665]

Hi.

Since you joined this site in 2009, 8 years ago I would have thought you had a good concept of the way voting and claiming works, Voyager is at L-2 putting him to L-1 is not the point at which someone claims, it is when someone has intent to hammer once a person is at L-1 that that person would be asked to claim.

Hi.
I've seen many different points that people think are or are not the right time to claim.

He isn't the top scum suspect he is currently the person with the most votes on him

How do you define the difference there?
With your claim apparently happening Day 1 they can't be trying to force a claim for info - so are they voting a *non* top scumread?
WHo do you think is voting while not scumreading Voyager?

To answer about the BP claim, again, please read through the thread to understand the proceedings of day 1 and what we have so far of day 2.

I feel I'm already caught up on that info, what else do you think I'll glean?

I will continue to say that your statement is more something that I would have expected from Peaches replacement slot, and not Plots, my read on your slot goes from decent townie to null, your eagerness to put someone to L-1 in some sort of attempt to claim without even having read through the thread is very disturbing.

Oh yeah? Why is that disturbing? Do you think I'm scum...trying to out the third PR?
Because I don't think that's likely

[Thor665]

Sure - I town read Spartan

Hard not to im conf town.

Well, if you want to get pedantic enough to debate specific claim order timing to L-1 and not L-2 I would point out that you're simply uncounterclaimed town at this stage, not confirmed.
But, yeah, I think that's a pretty safe read regardless.

[Thor665]

Let's just say if it's not a safe read, you'll be alive tomorrow for town to discuss it with you.

[Thor665]

Hi Thor, welcome. UCV is a policy lynch. Please read the thread.

Oh, sweet, you're the third person to ask me to read - that will change my opinion

So your push is "policy" and only that?
Seems weak as a logic - are you just lazy bandwagoning scum?

[Thor665]

people don't always vote for who they believe is scum.

That would tend to suggest they are voting for someone they believe to be town.
We could expand this, maybe, to people they have no read on - but if you have no scumreads, a non-read *would* be your strongest scum read.

would it not be a better idea to try and suss out all the scummy things that are going on rather than someone is seems the scummiest and ignore all the rest?

Yeah.
Is the only way to suss out things by voting?
I would suggest the best way to "suss out things" is to ask questions/analyze play.
But you should try to vote scum.
Unless you are scum, then vote town.

Why is it disturbing that someone subs in for someone else and instantly wants to put someone at L-1 without even reading the thread, I feel that is more common sense than anything else, it is much more of a scum orientated move to enter a game and vote without gaining information of the situation they are entering.

If you say so, maybe it would have been a way to "suss out" stuff though, or so I've heard.
Also, since I didn't vote anyone to L-2 or L-1...what's the point of the issue? Do you also have an issue with someone saying they might do something, and consider that suspect somehow?

Well as much as you might be stubborn to do it and just want to pick up where you entered, I believe all the town including myself would prefer if you have an understanding on the situation as to prevent rash decisions that could potentially lead to a predicament that happened at the end of day 1.

Well...I would suggest not reading had nothing to do with the end of Day 1, since Voyager totally understood she was hammering.
At that point your claim is reduced to a hope that I would read play advice and change the way I play.
I suspect that will be unlikely to happen this game.
So...whut?

Like, you're so excited to argue the ol' "please read everything" trope that you're losing track of the point you're even suggesting.

What's your take on CheekyTeeky?
I think they're scum, do you?

I claimed BP no one counter claimed thus proving im BP, potentially lost my BP status as D1 had no night kill.

Well, to argue the point for the sake of explaining why you're not confirmed.
There are two possible setups now.

1 Town JKer, 1 town BP, 1 Scum RBer, 1 Scum Goon
and
1 Town JKer, 2 Scum Goons

Without a counterclaim to you, you could be a Scum Goon, just claiming BP (a very safe scum claim) and decided to nokill in order to cement your claim/you and your partner failed to submit a kill by accident and now you're riding it for the win.
Also, quite frankly, we *could* be in the first setup, and the real BP has just opted not to counterclaim you for derpy reasons, and you could be scum/town faking for probably equally derpy reasons.

I don't actually think either situation is true, and am pretty sure you'll die tonight, but if you live, then it is a valid discussion to note that you are not actually confirmed at all.

I'm not trying to argue this, so please no follow up unless you fail to follow the logic here please and thank you.

[Thor665]

Hi Thor, welcome. UCV is a policy lynch. Please read the thread.

Oh, sweet, you're the third person to ask me to read - that will change my opinion

So your push is "policy" and only that?
Seems weak as a logic - are you just lazy bandwagoning scum?

I think you've just admitted that you're lazy bandwagoning scum.

What makes you think that?
Wouldn't that require Voyager to be my scumbuddy to be true? Otherwise why not lazy bandwagon onto the much larger wagon?

[Thor665]

No, it's because he won't read the thread...obviously. Actually can you all just vote me I'm getting sick of these two.

Why would scum be less likely to read the game than town in your opinion?
I also find the appeal to emotion pretty lackluster here and not really believable. I don't think the game has suddenly become unbearable for your towny self just today.

[Thor665]

thor, what's your read on xnadro?

I don't have one.

If you read the thread, you'd see I'm pretty pissed off with both of them for all of Day 2. You coming in and rekindling it just makes me even more intolerant. I know you've done this on purpose as scum but I've stopped caring.

My accusation that you're scum lazy bandwagoning is a rekindling of what they were pushing on you?

[Thor665]

Going and looking, it very loosely is - but since you are apparently now totally cured of your angst and desire to be lynched, maybe you can talk about your opportunistic play with me now also.

[Thor665]

Going and looking, it very loosely is - but since you are apparently now totally cured of your angst and desire to be lynched, maybe you can talk about your opportunistic play with me now also.

What opportunistic play? Give me something specific to respond to.

I've already said some specifics, but I'll try to put them in one concise post to see if that causes a different response;

I'm calling you out for the way you attacked Voyager - who basically did *exactly* what you did with the exception of not getting a claim.
Then I asked you how that specifically was scummy.
To which you responded 'policy' meaning you understood it wasn't scummy yet were pushing it anyway because it was easy and looked townish without any effort.

Do you understand my issue with you now?

[Thor665]

No?

D1 we were getting nowhere and I had provided my reads. I said I was willing to hammer Assemble but I didn't think he was scum. The "conf. town" said not to and suggested we look elsewhere which I was happy to do to get the game moving again so I withdrew intent and started pushing your slot.

In contrast UCV, who witnessed all of the above, just hammered. He effectively lolhammered with is a more than worthy PL offense which I tried to explain to him.

You literally just restated my synopsis here while acting like you're disagreeing with me.

so if he is town or scum I wanted him flipped so we could move on while there is room for error with no kill N1. Now that the game is moving in a good scumhunting direction again I'm focussing on sorting other reads while we are happy to give UCV the benefit of the doubt.

I will agree that after you got continued heat for the push you have re-positioned yourself.

It's frustrating trying to take you seriously when you won't do the work to read into this game. I shouldn't need to type a brief commentary of events you could see for yourself, had you been objective enough to do so.

I'm sorry you feel like I'm a load, though I would note my belief that you have provided me no new information in this answer than what I already presented, so we appear to be on closer footing than you are implying.

[Thor665]

So what is your question? What new information were you expecting? You phrased my actions in a subjectively scummy light so I framed it correctly for you.

I never asked you a question nor demanded an answer from you other than wanting to make sure you understood my attack after you asked me why I was attacking you.

Lol I like how you say you agree as if that's what I said. I said what I said, there is no town reason to twist my words to fit your desired version of events. Don't get me wrong I'd still happily jump on UCV wagon, unfortunately a wagon requires more than 1 vote to go through. If we can nail scum I'm happy to settle for that instead D2.

Are you saying I'm twisting your words?
If so - please state explicitly how, because I will call you a liar if you're claiming as such and now want to see evidence.
If not, I don't get your point here.

[Thor665]

I don't put a lot of faith in any scum case that involves me or Plot as scum team - especially when it appears that half the case appears to be that scum, if not our slot, should have killed our slot, ignoring the, y'know, chance of a named townie claim that they probably would want to deal with. This isn't rocket science.

[Thor665]

if not our slot, should have killed our slot, ignoring the, y'know, chance of a named townie claim that they probably would want to deal with. This isn't rocket science.

Can't really understand what you are saying here.

I don't put a lot of faith in any scum case that involves me or Plot as scum team - especially when it appears that half the case appears to be that scum, if not our slot, should have killed our slot, ignoring the, y'know, chance of a named townie claim that they probably would want to deal with. This isn't rocket science.

huh? This makes no since

Functionally you're both asking the same thing, so I'll field it all at once.

Here's what Lucca's claim of that Thor=scum case boils down to.
If Thor is town - scum would have killed Thor, also the Thor slot at one point looked like he was coaching this other slot.

That's a weak case any way you cut it.
But it becomes a vastly weaker case when there was a BP claim on the table - meaning either the BP is scum, or the BP is town, and if the BP is town I will very slightly suggest that scum may have had some other considerations then 'let's kill the most experienced player who hasn't even presented a reads list'.

But apparently I'm in the minority for thinking that is weak logic.
Why do you like it?

[Thor665]

1- he has lurked a good chunk of the game, and lurking is generally a scummy move. Unless your playing with assemble apparently
2- He enters day 2 with this huge case on Clemency. Someone who would be a easy miss lynch. Then he doesn't post anything more supporting it
3-once the clemency wagon doesn't take off, he turns around and makes a big case on me probably because I already had a decent amount of votes probably.

It makes the most sense .....since CT is playing her meta

1. You literally just described why that's a bad tell.
2. I don't find that an accurate assessment of what happened.
3. Quite possibly - Cheeky did that also though last I checked, and with less sense being made...

[Thor665]

I made a big case on Clemency but gave up and made a big case on UCV? Da faq are you on?

Take out the Clemency part of the third line and it is something you did.

@Voyager - this answers you too, since you like repeating questions that have already been asked.

@Lucca - a lot of people misunderstood your stance then. You said the lack of my death gave you pause. Did you mean pause from scumreading me because I didn't die?

[Thor665]

I also note that apparently there was no disagreement on my points 1 and 2, and only an attempted squint disagreement on point 3.
So...

[Thor665]

Clemency

I saw how you connected them - do you find them independently the most scummy also?
To parse that question more easily - if magically one of them were to be confirmed as town, would the other remain your top scumspect - or would someone else become the new top scumspect?

Also, why all the defense of yourself after your wagon starter (Lucca) basically just leapt onto your second top scumread? Feels like wasted air.

@Cheeky
@Voyager

I will take the dead silence from both of you on the matter being tacit acceptance that my point 3 was perfectly valid and that both of you attacking it was empty. This leaves me a little sad because I don't think you're scum with each other. But now I like the idea of lynching at least one of you even more than I did earlier.

[Thor665]

You understood me enough to attack what I said, but not enough to deal with the clarification?
Suuuuure.

[Thor665]

Do you have a bridge to sell me also?
I'm super gullible.

[Thor665]

Okay?

[Thor665]

So you say tat Clemency Meta doesn't mean much in the long run????

Can you explain why the Clemency meta we've seen is strong enough to clear Clemency and suggest anyone questioning it is scummy?

[Thor665]

I agree that Lucca's entrance was very townie

What was so townish about it in your opinion?

So you say tat Clemency Meta doesn't mean much in the long run????

Can you explain why the Clemency meta we've seen is strong enough to clear Clemency and suggest anyone questioning it is scummy?

@Voyager - 2nd verse, same as the first.

[Thor665]

So you say tat Clemency Meta doesn't mean much in the long run????

Can you explain why the Clemency meta we've seen is strong enough to clear Clemency and suggest anyone questioning it is scummy?

@Voyager - 2nd verse, same as the first.

@Voyager - third time's the charm?

[Thor665]

Is it?
I'm unaware of that, and also unaware of how that answers my question to you.

[Thor665]

I dont know how to answer but i will try

My favorite way for you to answer my questions is to take the points I am asking, and respond to them.
You managed to get the "why someone suspecting him is scummy.
You totally avoided why the meta makes him a town read.
Could you explain what this meta is and why it makes him such a town read for you?

Someone calling them scum isn't necessarily scummy, but they should reconsider...

You appeared to suggest it was scummy earlier - maybe it's all those ellipses you use. Makes it feel like you have an agenda and are trying to avoid saying what you are thinking.

I am starting to think more and more he could be scum. He has contributed a lot less than everyone else. EVEN XandrojX, but i think XandrojX is scum, but I dont think Scum would be targeting eachother....

So you've reversed your earlier meta read of the slot?

There seems to be some resistance to the XnadrojX wagon which gives me the feeling we're on the right track with it.

There is also resistance to the wagon on you - does that make it a good wagon?
There is literally resistance to every wagon we have going today, I'm pretty sure they're not all on scum.
So why does the resistance on him specifically look like scum resistance?

I think you're just empty saying things that sound townish without actually thinking about them, and it makes me still think you're scum.

PEdit - and there goes Voyager. I'm pretty sure I'm right on at least one of these. Let's lynch wagon up, seriously people. I have no idea why they both appear to be firm townreads for so many other players here.

[Thor665]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... is_Garbage

That's my answer on meta.
tl:dr - it matters as much as any other tell depending on the quality of how you use it...just like all tells.

To the question, do tells matter?, I would answer; yes.

[Thor665]

There's resistance to my wagon because I'm not scum. There's resistance to XnadrojX's wagon which looks weird after the new guy came putting him as a scum read but then moving onto Clemency who was nullish on the list.

So the resistance to your wagon is because you're town.
The resistance to XnadrojX's wagon is because he's scum.
I feel you've stated those beliefs and I think I am accurately reflecting your stances.
What I don't get is why resistance on you = town and resistance on XalphabetX = scum.
I think that's a very convenient and shallow analysis - I challenge you to support it and show your work, or I challenge everyone else to notice how scummy that is and to vote you.

[Thor665]

That's meaningless to my question - you claimed she was town due to meta and I'm asking what that meta was and why it convinced you.

[Thor665]

There's resistance to XnadrojX's wagon which looks weird after the new guy came putting him as a scum read but then moving onto Clemency who was nullish on the list.

Why are you skipping over this Thor? You're misrepping me left right and center.

I addressed it.
I'll address it in more detail if you like;

You're making an empty claim there, with no backup, and also failing to explain how it shows scum interaction as opposed to town interaction as regards the value of the wagon.

The closest you have is "a guy changed his reads" which I do not take as a scumtell.

[Thor665]

What I don't get is why resistance on you = town and resistance on XalphabetX = scum.
I think that's a very convenient and shallow analysis - I challenge you to support it and show your work, or I challenge everyone else to notice how scummy that is and to vote you.

And as long as we're suggesting people are dodging things.
@Cheeky.

[Thor665]

You've explained nothing other than "he changed his mind".
Is that really the extent of what makes it scum resistance?

[Thor665]

Spartan changed his mind on Voyager - should we lynch both of them?

[Thor665]

Thor I as conf town, declare like I have previously that cheeky is my strongest town read, thus resistance to her wagon from conf town isnt in any way to suggest scumminess, resistance from supposed towns who dont even suggest them as their strongest town read is much scummier than resistance from conf town. Point closed.

I think you're rather missing the point I'm making, or I'm misunderstanding your point.
I actually don't think resistance to a wagon is scummy in any way, shape, or form until after you know the alignment of the person who was being wagoned.

[Thor665]

I like his scumhunting and sorting right from the outset. His reads make sense and I can follow their logic. I also like that he brings up original points and pushes me and Clemency instead of following the flow of the game with {Xnadj, Voyager, Cheeky}. It's much easier for scum to blend in and go for an easy mislynch.
What do you think?

I found his scumhunting pretty shallow, and he seemed to shift it immediately after any pressure came his way.
Certainly don't town read him for it.

Well the point if resistance to a wagon is designed around stopping it from getting to a lynch, and you dont think resistance to a wagon is scummy in any way, well I can easily see scum protecting their other scums wagon, and trying to divert attention, and personally I can not afford to wait till i find out the alignment to find out if a resistance of a wagon could be scum or town, as by the time the alignment of whoever gets lynched is revealed it will be night time and when day time comes around I shall be no more.

I hear you talking but it doesn't make a lot of sense as a rebuttal to what I'm saying, nor as an explanation of why Cheeky's push is town minded.

It's about read progression. I liked his first post explaining everything and that it revolved around the no-kill. He then completely junks his first post effectively making it irrelevant without a thought progression to follow unless I've missed something. It's funny that him changing his mind is ok but me changing my mind is not, when I've provided more reason for doing so. Arguing with you is like arguing with scum. It's frustrating and futile because you're set and nothing I say is going to change your mind so I'm agreeing to disagree and we should just sort other people to stop wasting each other's time.

I haven't called you changing your mind scummy - nice straw man.
Maybe the reason you can't change my mind is because you're not actually addressing my issues but are addressing made up ones?
This actually feels like scum defense to me.

[Thor665]

'm pretty sure you've based your whole tunnel on me changing my mind on UCV or am I missing something?

Considering I've described my issue with your push on UCV at least twice, and considering neither time did I describe changing your mind as part of my issue - I would challenge you to show me where I ever said or did anything to make you think that this was my issue.

What new content do you think I'm avoiding and not commenting on?
Since you can't even recall my stances I would love to hear what info you think I'm avoiding too.

[Thor665]

VOTE: UCV

Anyone else find it weird that UCV wont put Clemency to L1 but didn't have a problem lol-hammering assemble?

Doesn't that require both slots to be scum - something you're not arguing?

[Thor665]

VOTE: UCV

Anyone else find it weird that UCV wont put Clemency to L1 but didn't have a problem lol-hammering assemble?

Doesn't that require both slots to be scum - something you're not arguing?

I thought it wasn't scummy to change my mind?

Nice additional straw man - where I point out you haven't said something.
If you're town the logical reply would be "I'm arguing that now".
Instead you come up with this weak slap back without even claiming straight out what you now believe?

Better kill me tonight.
I'm not going away otherwise.

[Thor665]

His only read seems to be you as scum, not a pinch on plot.

Outside of the slots that are hard lurking (where it would be strange of me to claim a read on them)
I've actually offered a number of reads besides Cheeky.

Would you like to play the game where you name some people and I offer reads on them by quoting myself?
Or you could try reading me a bit more.
Who do you think I haven't offered a read on?

[Thor665]

In the meantime, if anyone wants to sell me on their preferred lynch, feel free to explain why you want that lynch and I'll engage your reasoning once I catch up tomorrow.

Cheeky is hypocritical and opportunistic, and for some reason people empty town read the slot.

[Thor665]

Why is that funny?

[Thor665]

The largest wagon is currently 3 votes.
The smallest is 1 - making my Cheeky push only 2 votes away from being tied for the largest wagon.
There is no consensus for me to be worried about yet, especially with a replacement now here and the lurk from the Deimos and lucca slots.

The only current wagon that, by my offered reads, makes any sense for me to shift to is the one on you - and I'm having a hell of a time reading you because you and logic don't get along very well, and that makes you a policy lynch at best - and also a policy lynch that my strongest scum read seems to really want to happen, which makes me stubborn about it.

If it comes down to Void or you I'd shift in a heartbeat, and Clemency or you would probably be a coin flip. But I suspect I have time yet before I get paranoid about that stuff.

Still don't see the humor in me advancing my case though.
That is actually me being proactive to the thing you're suggesting is weak about my situation.
It's like laughing at someone mowing his lawn and when asked why you say 'but look how high his grass is!' to which I would reply...'yes, and?'

[Thor665]

This game is never going to work, its a game of subs, every time a slot changes it effects my read on it further confusing things.

Newbie games tend to have more replacements than most games - since people are just trying the game and many find it's not for them.
That said, you need to develop a method for handling replacements - you'll have to deal with them in all games on every site as far as I've ever been able to see.

[Thor665]

This is better than warm pecan pie.

[Thor665]

You say that and don't even vote this slot that can supposedly read you, so has to be lying scum right now?
Not buying these reactions.
You're busted.

[Thor665]

At least your flip will give your partner some debate on whether Spartan dies tonight

[Thor665]

Nice recovery

[Thor665]

If Cheeky isn't lynched then all of you need to buy reading glasses.

[Thor665]

Thor if you're not scum Imma laugh at you so hard

If you're town I'm going to want to teach you how to play so hard

Seriously though, you're on scum fire right now - it's all empty excuses, attacks, and hand waving.

[Thor665]

Id didn't even take much, you were put on like L-4 or something and freaked.
You know that northsidegal can read you and its curling your toes.

[Thor665]

People should actually stop talking and sheep me.

Vote: No Lynch

[Thor665]

i found myself really wanting to believe that thor was town. if that wasn't the case and thor wasn't town, it meant that i was getting manipulated before i was even in the game. i don't think i'll be wanting to believe things anymore. hopefully i can approach everything from a fresh perspective and get to the core of issues.

a no lynch here is definitely the right choice. no matter who gets killed it's going to be good in terms of information. i'd like everyone to check in and get their thoughts in first before anyone ends the day, but i'm confident this is correct.

In response, and in order;

and
'No'

[Thor665]

I'm really confused by all of you.

[Thor665]

thinking again, this day should've gone this way:

four posts, four votes, no reads. keep scum on the dark about reads.

Yeah, pretty much we blew that.

[Thor665]

Ok, I've read like 20% of the game and I know who the scum-team is. I'll tell you all tomorrow!

VOTE: No Lynch

^^^
How to do it.

[Thor665]

I'd prefer not to talk about reads at all, and I think advocating agreement or disagreement with the plan is doing the same.

[Thor665]

Oh yeah?
Describe my reads.
Describe Deimos' reads.
Heck, I'd challenge you to describe your own reads.

We haven't gakked this up yet, but we're damn close to it right now and for some reason keep galumphing along.

[Thor665]

That is the opposite of what I want paired with a lack of awareness or a lie about how you post.

[Thor665]

Frankly too many are saying too much already.
It's not just Voyager (albeit if he's town scum are probably in derp territory if they think they know his reads, but...)
The point being we either hammer through this no lynch very soon or I'm going to start talking and then anyone pushing no lynch is scum claiming.
Them's the options.

The only point of no lynching is to give town info and deny scum logical NK options.
If we talk we kill half that plan.
So what the hell people?

[Thor665]

If everyone can give their current reads/thoughts while I catch-up then that would be helpful.

I think Toto is town.
I think we should lynch Voyager.
How would you rule yourself out from being a partner with Voyager?

People should actually stop talking and sheep me.

Vote: No Lynch

This is terrible - a no-lynch is acceptable is this situation, but to want it done immediately without using any of the day to find scum/produce more content seems something scum would wish for.

I don't agree with how you think No Lynch is best played.
If you're no lynching - then by definition town can't have a consensus clear townread (or else town is derp).
In that case, any conversation only helps scum figure out who most people consider town.
So why have the conversation exactly?

NThor - If you are town you need to do more. So far the only thing I've seen from you is the push on Cheeky.

You've actually seen a number of pushes from me, though none as big as that one - but since your area of the game to pull evidence from is 1 real day and 1 no lynch day - yeah, there isn't much. But that's silly to whine about.
I might as well complain that I haven't seen a push from you.
It's true...but...

[Thor665]

why do you think i should be lynched?

VCA and your somewhat opportunistic play.
Also, considering the NKs I'm pretty sure no on experienced is a scum, so.

what are your thoughts on NSG/Luca Blight debate

I find it a non debate and pedantic at best.

As for everyone else, that's something they have to judge for themselves. I believe Toto is Town so it's up to him if he believes me or you.

Okay - why do you rule out NSG and Voyager as scumbuddies?
I find it fairly suspect you'll cite Voyager, then soft town read him, cite NSG but want to lynch me first, and the only apparent logic is partner pairings, but your pairings feel strategic rather than deductive.

Thor, you saw my case on why I believe UVC is town. Try and convince me otherwise.

Your case begins and ends with calling him a newbie.
It's not much of a case, I'm surprised it sells you, it certainly doesn't sell me.

[Thor665]

explain this. earlier in the game it was suggested that making the move to kill the conftown suggested a more experienced player as scum (at the time it was plotinus), which lines up with everything that i've been thinking. what's the rationale for newbies being scum?

I certainly don't think I ever argued it was more experienced scum.
But let's just look at the kill yesterday and take a moment - who, as scum, did that benefit?
Also, who here thinks Toto looked like scum?

That makes the kill look really weird in a world where I don't think the Toto slot can be scum, yeah?
So that means scum is doing substandard kills.
Why?
There is no reason to at this stage with all the PRs dead. They don't need WIFOM.
So why derp?
It's because they don't think they derped - ergo; new scum.

So UCV plus either someone who is thinking poorly and lead that way or someone willing to let them lead the path.
Makes a lot of sense to me.

What are your thoughts?

[Thor665]

1) His hammer on assemble - I don't see scum doing this here regardless of experience. A newb in their first scumgame is even less likely however, because they will likely be extra cautious, in my opinion.

5) The way his reads change again isn't dependent on experience - it just comes across as genuine as opposed to calculated.

The other three points were made with his experience in mind, but why not? He is/was a noob, and his explanation regarding his mindset such as in 460 is pretty accurate to what I would expect from newbtown.

A lot of it is gut as I mentioned, but I don't see him being scum.

1. I tend to find Newbie scum to be more brazen on average, not less. Where do you draw your conclusion from? There's a reason my #1 bit of newbie scum advice is 'don't push lynches'. It's because Newbie scum always think they need to.

5. I agree it's not based on experience, but I laugh at the idea it looks genuine. You're spitting on me and telling me it's raining. He changes his reads every thirty seconds on random whims - yet is always pushing a top wagon, and everyone he has leapt on has flipped town.

I agree that you successfully argued that he is a newb.

I agree that a lot of it is gut and unsupported - yet when I suggest it's unsupported your opening comment to me is "This isn't entirely true"
You know how else you can say that? "This isn't entirely false."
Which means you know I had a point in how empty your case was, but don't want to actually address the empty elephant in the room.

I have theories for why that is - but I want to lynch UCV first because I'm much more confident there.

[Thor665]

you're asking questions that look like they're meant to be rhetorical, but i don't think the answers are as obvious as you think that they are. this reads to me like you're trying to make excuses or come up with a narrative as to why you're still alive, all while pinning it on mister mislynch himself. like, it doesn't make sense for you to still be alive and you recognize that, so you're coming up with the newbie narrative to try to explain it, but i don't really believe it.

Okay - in your world I'm scum.
Why do I kill who scum killed last night...for any reason?
Because if you're going to dismiss my rhetorical questions as not rhetorical, you should have a decent line of thought on that, right?

And the answers are blatant to me since I know I'm not scum, so I know scum derped.

1) From my experience, Newbs tend to hold back as scum (a bit like how Clemency has played in this game) and would be scared to pull the trigger.

5) Look at UVC's town meta and tell me he doesn't do the same.

I townread UVC, you want him lynched - therefore the onus is on you to convince me he is scum, not the other way around.

1 - Can you link me to an example or two? Because I basically never see this.

5. Show me his scum meta and tell me he doesn't? Also, yes, I *would* argue that he looks less calculating as town within the limited evidence we have to assess meta.

I don't expect you to ever get a scum read on UCV considering your bar of clearance to clear him is so low, and your bar to suspect him so apparently high.
It's okay, it's the right move for you this phase

I already said why - I don't see scum bussing in the situation I mentioned earlier.

I spent half the game attacking the meta clearing Clemency as town.
But you don't appear to rule me out as a buddy.
So...I feel like you're lying.

If you are town it is your job to get town read by me and whoever the other townie is. @Thor this is what I meant by you doing something before.

+ One thing you could try is try to convince others why whoever you replaced was town (same as I did).

Ah, that's silly - not everyone gets to replace into a derp obv. town situation.

+ Also if you truly think I am town then that narrows the pool of scum teams to 6 possible pairs for each of you. (it's 10 if you include me) Maybe have a think about those.

I pretty blatantly already have and have offered a large number of thoughts - want to talk about them?

The fact Thor has come in and targeted UVC (who he probably thought would be lynchbait in LYLO) over NSG ties in well with my theory that they are indeed the scum-pairing.

Also note how NSG hasn't explained why she is treating UCV as Town today despite my asking twice. I'm pretty sure the only reason she took that position is because I had already - she hadn't mentioned a townread on UVC previously.

Yup - because scum Thor told NSG to blindly sheep someone clearing the lynchbait he chose to cinch the game and to attack him constantly.
Though then again since your scum case also requires me to have decided to NK lucca I guess you're obligated to think I'd play like that.

[Thor665]

I pretty blatantly already have and have offered a large number of thoughts - want to talk about them?

Your most direct opinion seems to be that we should kill UCV.

You have accurately assessed my thought.

Like I get that his behavior has been erratic and have my own reasons to suspect him but so far it seems we all agree he is a noob. What makes you think he is newbscum and not newbtown?

I have already answered this in describing his moves as opportunistic and strategic and gunning for town flips.

What are your thoughts on NSG and Luca? Are they town or scum? You seem to be suspecting both if I'm reading things right but also want to kill UCV.

I have indicated a general preference for Luca as the partner already, but will agree that I suspect both and see no obvious reason to rule out either.
But NSG's play seems more cautious by nature, while Luca is making bold claims. Paranoia and lack of assurance is a town tell.
So, gun to my head I'd say Luca.
That said, I don't have a gun to my head, and have plenty of time to assess my thoughts for tomorrow.

[Thor665]

How does NSG's position on UCV indicate 'lack of assurance' and 'paranoia'?

Her position on me without locking is pseudo partners does.
Because the only way I'm scum is if you or UCV (who you claim she both town reads) are my partners.
She doesn't have a pretty little bow case though, does she?
Hence - paranoia. She's attacking me because she's spooked.

The only 'bold claim' I have made is my townread of UCV, so why is Thor ignoring that NSG has done the exact same thing (minus the reasoning?)

As long as we ignore that random clear becoming a scum team, and that she hasn't doubled down on it or dodged my question about the logic being used to clear people - yeah, what you and she did is identical.
This also ignores that I'm still listing her as a scumspect in order to straw man the attack on me for "clearing" her.
Any other words to put in my mouth?

I also note you ducked providing the examples I asked for, or justifying why me/Clemency makes sense.

I guess my problem with this is that I have a feeling you could be giving a much better explanation here. Town lynch town all the time, otherwise mafia would not be fun, why is it different here? Why is it opportunistic?

Because he never stayed on a smaller wagon - ever.
That means either he is a total milksop with no reads or convictions of his own, or he was just overeager scum.
I bank on the latter as far more likely.

[Thor665]

I wasn't talking about you - I was asking how her view on UCV comes from someone who is paranoid and lacks assurance? She is willing to treat him as town for no apparent reason.

By that logic she is claiming that you and I are scumbuddies.
Are you thinking she's claiming that?

Underlined

- I'm gonna copy your argument strategy and turn the question around on you. How about you show me examples of scum hammering like UCV did in this game?

Is this an admission that you can't back up your logic?
Because if you say 'yes' then I'll do it.
If you say 'no' then what's the point of doing it?
I'm saying I've never barely ever seen what you're saying you've learned is the common play - so I want to know why you think something I think is illogical.

[Thor665]

@Thor: thoughts on 416

Fake hammer awareness paired with a distance.

What are your thoughts?

[Thor665]

Err yes, she clearly is in 1141.

And you think that pairing makes sense outside of paranoia?

Again, the onus is on

you

to convince

me

UVC is scum - if you genuinely believe in your read and genuinely believe NSG might be his scum partner then you would do this.

The onus is on you to back up a claim you made.
I made a pretty direct and straightforward offer about providing exactly what you're asking for, all you need to do is agree or back up an argument I'm not seeing.

Also, showing evidence of scum hammering as UVC did is a lot more clear cut than showing evidence of scum playing cautiously. I'm sure you can appreciate that?

Not if your argument is that one is super common.
Which is what you're saying, right? I'm not misrepresenting that, am I?

[Thor665]

@Thor: thoughts on 416

Fake hammer awareness paired with a distance.

What are your thoughts?

What about him ignoring the hypothetical coaching?

Eh, I have never seen coaching happen in thread that, afterwards, scum ever admitted to.
I don't really think it does.

[Thor665]

Also note how both Thor and NSG are suspecting each other but leaning scum more on me - classic scumteam tactic of distancing while homing in on a possible compromise mislynch.

Also ignore the fact I'm blatantly not advocating your lych?
What the hell dude - this is utter BS as a claim.

[Thor665]

i think i have a good enough idea of ucv's meta (both town and scum)

Where do you get your scum meta from?

[Thor665]

Hence the word 'compromise'.

Yeah.
Except to suggest I'm "compromising" would require you to be my top scumspect - something that there is no evidence of other than you randomly claiming it's true.

Why not?

Because if we were bothering to distance with you actually pushing my lynch I shouldn't have you as a "dunno" in case I flipped. I should have you as scum.
That's how distance and bussing both work at this late of a stage.

As UCV isn't being lynched without you doing some work convincing, the onus most definitely is on you.

I'm pretty sure he is at least as likely to get lynched as I am - which makes our cases equal in that regard.

No, even though it's common, if it also open to interpretation, whereas your evidence of scum hammering as UCV did in this game isn't - it would be an undisputed fact.

I feel like a goal post moved, because I was arguing that scum can be aggressive as newbs - and now you're saying that I would need to show newb scum hammering. And hammering does not purely equate to aggressiveness even if it is, in itself aggressive - so now your claim is newbie scum don't hammer? Or can you specify how his hammer was not a newbie scum hammer?

Thor seems like BS right now. everything that he says is dumb and illogical! I could see him being scum with NSG/Thor.......

The idea of you attacking my logic won't keep me up at night.
I'd mock more here but Toto stole my thunder of getting to ask.

I'll also note that with scum close to a win, literally 3 players beyond a generally agreed town player have me as a top scumspect at this stage.
I don't think it should require a lot of brainpower to notice that something is screwy, especially since there isn't even remotely a case on me from any of the three.

[Thor665]

Why can't I 1v1 UCV - you really need to justify that town read hardcore if you want me 1v1ing within derp.

[Thor665]

That's illogical.
Walk me through the logic that rules him out from potential participation in the 1v1.

[Thor665]

The entire point of a 1v1 in mylo is to try to sort people.
So to rule people out of it you HAVE to be able to make a justified argument for why they are town.
None of this Luca derp case that took me two seconds to sandblast. Like, a legit statement.
You're not doing that, so why are you wasting my time?

[Thor665]

Like, say I vote him and there's no quick hammer and you're all convinced he's town.
Isn't that fuggin' amazing for you, huzzah you caught Thor?

[Thor665]

Of course it might make people have to actually, y'know, assess that slot.
Crazy thought, I know, but...

[Thor665]

I don't trust his ability to defend himself if you are scum and he is town.

Irrelevant.

the self-awareness of this point makes it wifom and i would say doesn't really make it applicable as some sort of crushing defeat of the idea of that scumteam.

It does sell my point that it's a paranoia case though - which was what I was doing.
I wasn't arguing whether it was a good case or wasn't - I was arguing if it was paranoid or wasn't.
What are you even debating with me here?

Hey. Thor and Luca,

Have you guys completely given up on the possibility it is UCV + NSG ?

Quote me remotely claiming anything like that.
I have openly claimed the direct opposite multiple times.

@thor: please declare intent once you decide who you are going to vote

Vote: UCVoyager

That's what I think about your plan.

[Thor665]

If it's so funny then let's wait and see if there's a quickhammer.

I bet there won't be.

[Thor665]

I'm not a rebel - I just asked for the logic of why I should follow the case and got drip for it.
If you guys are going to lynch me off of no case - then I'll at least get lynched absolutely voting the obv. scum everyone else is too derp to notice because 'lawl, newb'.

If it's so funny then let's wait and see if there's a quickhammer.

I bet there won't be.

Doesn't mean he's scum though.

It does.
What it doesn't mean is that scum will admit it or that town will discern it.

[Thor665]

And as people gird up to lynch me - exciting mental exercise for you.

Describe someone else's case on me.
It will be difficult,

[Thor665]

And as people gird up to lynch me - exciting mental exercise for you.

Describe someone else's case on me.
It will be difficult,

Best one I heard so far is you are still alive.

That doesn't mean UCV is scum, though.

That is a case that could apply to you to - and I would argue with more merit.
So why isn't anyone using it on you?
Basically, also, what that case boils down to is 'Thor is super obviously pro town, so scum should kill him' well - maybe I'm just pro-town because I'm town?
It's a dumb case.
And it's the best?
Think about that.

[Thor665]

I'll also agree that me being town doesn't make UCV scum.
Good thing that isn't even close to my case on him.

[Thor665]

Also, if UCV is town and I'm town or scum - seriously, I'm being derp hard bussed, or the scum team is actively choosing to go up with terrible cases on me when they could sheep an actual functional case from me on UCV.
But there were zero takers.
That's too much derp in the town pool.

[Thor665]

Ok Thor, you have an hour to convince me UCV is scum or I'm voting you.

I think we can agree the onus is now most definitely on you

No, your vote and the logic behind it is your onus.
I've very clearly already laid out why I'm obvious town here.
Where am I losing you exactly? Like, just take my last post - where did I lose you?

It does sell my point that it's a paranoia case though - which was what I was doing.
I wasn't arguing whether it was a good case or wasn't - I was arguing if it was paranoid or wasn't.
What are you even debating with me here?

you were saying that a luca/thor scumteam doesn't make sense because you weren't doing what scum would do to distance themselves in a situation like this. i said that the self-awareness of that point makes it inapplicable as a defense. arguing that it's a paranoia case is basically the same as arguing that it doesn't make sense - paranoia is diagnosed as systematic delusions, no? unless you were using some other definition of paranoia, saying that it's a paranoia case is the same as saying it doesn't make sense.

Paranoia can also mean exaggerated beliefs - like when you decide that an unlikely thing, is actually the most likely thing. Why? BECAUSE!
But feel free to replace the word paranoia with anything that means what I described and I'll use that word going forward to clear things up for you.
You're still attacking a position I made under false claims of what the position was.

Also, if UCV is town and I'm town or scum - seriously, I'm being derp hard bussed,

or the scum team is actively choosing to go up with terrible cases on me when they could sheep an actual functional case from me on UCV.
But there were zero takers.
That's too much derp in the town pool.

This is BS - NSG is hardly 'hard-bussing' you.

I agree she's not bussing me
But feel free to tell me who she's advancing *more* to lynch than me.
I'll wait.

Because if I'm her top scumspect....well...I'm kinda being bussed if I'm her partner, aren't I, Sherlock?

[Thor665]

my argument wasn't that it's scummy for you to still be alive because you're pro-town, my argument is that your slot has been in a comfortable position since day one and, taking the context of the game into account, scum have seemed to also consider themselves in a comfortable position. i've stated this with more nuance previously but your idea of what the case on you is just isn't accurate.

Okay - *Toto* claimed what he thought the case was, and I responded to the case as *he* described it.
Stop attacking false positions.
If you're town, it's wasteful and scummy. If you're scum it makes you look wasteful and scummy.

Your argument that scum are so comfortable with what ended up today being a pretty obvious and universal town read suggests either that;
A; scum are stupid (I'm not stupid scum, I've had ruddy manipulation noms multiple times - I've open claimed as scum and won the game. I am so much better at scum than the scum this game it is insulting to argue otherwise)
B; scum for some strange reason found other slots more threatening - which fails to justify your comfort concept.

And that's about it.
Scum are either blind, or had fears worse than a universal clear town read.
Your case isn't supportable as a stance.

[Thor665]

What makes it invalid?

[Thor665]

Because, as far as I can tell, your claim is that it's invalid because I'm aware that it wouldn't make sense - thus I could, as scum, argue that Luca and I should do something nonsensical in order to somehow get you to rule out our scum team because I'd be able to make the argument that scum would be dumb to distance like we were distancing.

Which...and wait for it...sounds kinda paranoid.

[Thor665]

NSG I don't think Thor spends a lot of time defending this point if Luca is his partner.

Like he said, he would bus his partner. *ahem*

That's totally what I'm doing - help me do it?

[Thor665]

it's not paranoid - it's thinking one level higher than your opponents. you said it yourself, you're good at this game. you obviously have the self-awareness and gamesense to recognize typical scum distancing behavior, it's not so much of a stretch to say that you could go one further and deliberately avoid the "textbook" or "wiki" as a strategy.

Okay.
Just as long as you agree that you're looking for higher levels of play and suspecting the unexpected or non normal I feel my point holds fine.

[Thor665]

first, my point is that scum went into day two and day three relatively comfortable. the pressure has obviously increased as both scum have made it to lylo and the night three kill represents an attempt to eliminate some of that pressure.

How did that kill reduce pressure in a way that a Toto kill would not?

[Thor665]

Until recently (pretty much when your slot became a lot cause) she was suspecting me every bit as much as she was suspecting you, and I would agree more so based on 1163.

She had me as higher before that.
And she had me as higher after.
So at best you are debating with me that at some stage I was not her theory primary target and thus I'm not being bussed?
Sure - you do you.

[Thor665]

are you.... TRYING TO SEEM SCUMMY, it makes no since!

Dude, you're going to lynch me. Don't expect me to try to make you feel better about it by pretending your tells are interesting or worthy of sensible debate.

[Thor665]

Until recently (pretty much when your slot became a lot cause) she was suspecting me every bit as much as she was suspecting you, and I would agree more so based on 1163.

She had me as higher before that.
And she had me as higher after.
So at best you are debating with me that at some stage I was not her theory primary target and thus I'm not being bussed?
Sure - you do you.

'Bussing' would be actively pushing your lynch - show me where she was doing that before recently.

For the sake of *this* comical hair splitting.
Define "recently".
Because you're already agreeing I'm right within a given time frame - define the time frame you're denying I'm right in.

[Thor665]

So, what, you mean like the last few hours?
Yeah - she's been pushing me before then, derp.

[Thor665]

Like, remember the thing you just quoted about us being a scum team?
Remember our conversation *yesterday* in that ancient time covered in dust and forgetfulness due to the passage of the ages?

[Thor665]

first, my point is that scum went into day two and day three relatively comfortable. the pressure has obviously increased as both scum have made it to lylo and the night three kill represents an attempt to eliminate some of that pressure.

How did that kill reduce pressure in a way that a Toto kill would not?

toto's reads weren't clear upon his replacing in, and thus scum couldn't know the effect killing him would have. given the unknown result and the known result with relatively equal benefits (probably more scum benefit for killing lucca, from what i understand he does a lot of lategame gamesolving), scum would choose the known result.

So, scum, feeling the pressure - killed something that was causing no pressure to avoid changing the set situation?
This actually sounds like you're returning to the comfort stance - which I already argued about, and you claimed wasn't your stance.

Thor, despite being a Mafiascum player since '09, seems to have trouble differentiating between 'distancing' and 'bussing'.

How do you define the difference without any votes in play?
And, I note that you're now shifting your claim to needing subjective value calls on NSG's play - since you know the factual evidence supports my stance.

[Thor665]

I know one of you has to be scum - but I swear, whichever of you is town is a ruddy brick wall in the head.

[Thor665]

So. Thor.

Walk me through your thought process before you decided to get into this 1v1. Because I don't see it.

1) NSG +Luca + UCV wanted to kill you before you decided to vote
2) Everyone had heard your case on UCV and yet no-one was actually willing to vote him, or at least expressed that opinion.
3) I gave you the option to go after either Luca or NSG (that from town!you PoV at least one of them has to be scum).
4) You decided the plan was shit
5) you voted him and didn't really expand your case on him.

1. I agree (apparently Luca doesn't, but )
2. I also agree that for some reason no one decided to attack him.
3. I agree.
4. I agree.
5. I disagree, but understand that you're ignoring the commentary I'm making because...well, I dunno, but yeah, you, Luca, and NSG are all ignoring it, so it's more annoying than clear scummy.

+ What do you expect us to do now?
+ Are you town that just wants to suicide just to prove a point? because this is the only explanation I have for town!you.

+ Lynch one of us if UCV isn't quick hammered.
+ I have "suicided" like this in the past, but I don't consider it a suicide. If I have a clear vision of truth, I am playing against my wincon to ignore it. My job is to vote scum. To argue that I'm town. and to explain my scum read. That's what the game boils down to. My job is not, in lylo, to agree to try to choose between lesser scum reads because it might improve my chances of living another day. That's not how town should play the game.I personally consider the issue here to be that people are randomly deciding I'm scum and UCV is scum FOR NO REASON. And I keep mentioning this in the vague hope that somebody will notice there are no reasons, and ask appropriate questions.

Also, frankly, your magical 1 v1 debate with me and Luca/NSG - it's HAPPENING ANYWAY the only thing is I've not taken aware the hard choice from you by risking a quick hammer. I know that actually choosing in lylo is tough and scary, and I am certainly a victim of that lockdown myself. But there's no way I'm going to play badly to try tohelp you avoid it. Part of the game is dealing with lylo.

Tell me what you want me to do.

As I've already said;

1. I think you should try to get people to describe the "case" on me and make a legit assessment of how it happened, and how valid it looks.
It literally sprang up today.
Is mostly based on things that have NOTHING to do with my play or my votes.
and is otherwise empty parroting.

2. I think you should do the same with UCV's town read.
It is based on that he is a newb (something no one argues - but I would note is not a valid tell of alignment as newbscum do exist.)
I have argued it with you and I think you were the one who claimed his scum meta (or it was NSG, I forget) I asked for info on that and whoever I asked it of came back with nothing at all - which is a HUGE issue that people should notice.
Luca's case for him being town is paper thin and Luca is literally having to go into awkward wordplay with me to defend the stance, and he knows it. It doesn't prove Luca is scum, but it does prove that something is screwy with the stance due to logical flaws or malicious scum goals. And that should be talked about by someone other than me also - even if your stance is just that *I* am the one with logical flaws.

Instead all I get is an offer of a stupid plan, that when I challenge it is just reinforced with threats.
And I get empty baying from a pretty obvious scum slot that wants me lynched *while also asking for permission to do it even while I'm voting the slot*
And then I get this.

I'm talking to walls here.
Feel free for any one of the three of you to surprise me with legit conversation.
Two of you are scumspects doing hair splitting buffoonery with me.
The last is a town read insisting on sub optimal plans because apparently I'm better at debate than a potential scum read.

[Thor665]

If you are going to learn anything from this newbie, let it be that NK analysis is a fucking waste of time. Thanks.

That is hardly a valid factual claim.
NK analysis, like literally all scumhunting techniques, is open to scum wifom play.
That doesn't make it any better or worse than anything else, and it remains a valid conceptual tactic.

Bussing, without votes in play, would be actively trying to lynch your scum partner.

Okay...so define "active" then?
You're trying to attack my position without defining the criteria you're using as a basis to attack it.

I skimmed through Thor's ISO and he doesn't seem to suspect UCV at all on Day Two - he even defends him against Cheeky.

I did defend him against Cheeky - but to suggest I didn't suspect him and didn't question his motives/attack his stances/or suggest issue with his play is an objective lie.

You are either terrible at looking over an ISO - or are scum lying.

[Thor665]

Your pedantry is really doing nothing to help you, regardless of your alignment. Anyway...

You whine about me being a pedant, and then offer a dictionary definition of a word that you're applying in a game term.
Fine, watch it become more pedantic - as you keep dodging the question you must know I'm asking;

How is what NSG did *not* trying to get me lynched (in an active way)?

And I don't see anywhere where you clearly suspected UCV on day two. I saw some questioning, although pretty minimal.

If I'm wrong then feel free to point it out rather than resort to petty insults. As I said I only skimmed your ISO; I don't have time to read every word of every wall you have posted this game.

You are wrong.
What do I get if I quote it to you?
Will you promise to sheep me onto UCV?

And even if you did question him a bit, it doesn't explain the massive change in attitude towards UCV to now not only strongly scumread him but to actually refuse to consider lynching anyone else.

Well...

1. How "massive" is this change exactly? Like - are you claiming I town read him?
2. When did I refuse to consider lynching someone else? You're horribly misrepresenting my desire not to try to play a game between other scum reads in order to avoid voting my top scum read. You're also ignoring that I directly asked for reasoning as to why the plan would make sense, and explained why I felt it didn't, and that I got blown off. Yeah, I was *real* full of refusal.

Thor. If you had gone through the plan who would you have voted and why?

If I knew that - I'd be claiming a scum team.
Why do you keep ignoring that I am actively trying to sort both the slots and that both slots are playing dodgy word games and derp with me?

Thor. I just lost a lylo becuase it went too fast and I want to make sure I consider all the options this time.

Okay - point me to where I claimed we should do this fast and I'll admit you have changed my mind.

You keep repeating ucv is scum for just a couple of reasons that can also be explained from newbtown pov. I dont understand why you were so convinced to the point of ignoring the plan, or at least give some thought about it.

Holy hell - I ACTIVELY CONSIDERED THE PLAN, EXPLAINED WHY I DIDN'T LIKE IT, AND ASKED FOR CLARIFICATION!
Why the hell do people act like I was being unreasonable?
If I was being unreasonable I WOULDN'T HAVE ASKED YOU TO JUSTIFY THE PLAN, I WOULD HAVE JUST TOLD YOU TO SOD OFF!

Your debate with nsg and luca has been mostly about you convincing one you are not the others partners and vice versa. If you are town I need to see how you sort them.

That is not actually what the discussion is about - my discussion with them has been about obligating them to explain their reasoning.
That is how I sort people - it's how I've always sorted people, and it's how I've been sorting people in this game since my replace in.
If you can't see that - we have some issues to overcome.
Like, you can't tell that I'm more excited to hear them explain their reasoning than to convince them of anything? I'm not even arguing with Luca that I'm not NSG's partner (though I am discussing not being Luca's partner with NSG) I'm discussing with Luca why UCV isn't town. So you're at least 50% objectively and factually wrong here.

You're not reading clearly.
How can I help?
Because I need you to start reading clearly - and you missing what 50% of my conversation is even about is not a healthy sign.

voyager acts a lot more formal as scum, and more concerned with actively coming across as townie. this game has had all of the hallmarks of his typical town game - newbie mistakes, jumping from wagon to wagon and basically being lynchbait for the entire game. it's consistent with his philosophy or just his mindset as coming from other, faster websites - he's stated before that he believes the purpose of vanilla townies is to throw as much info as they can out there without a whole lot of concern for their death. that comes across incredibly clearly to me this game.

Just like last time you discussed his meta, and hopefully not going to be dodged this time.
Could I get a link or an example?

I made 1347 because it's true - he is the only conf town, therefore he is the only one who anyone can fully trust.

There is a difference between trust and accuracy.

You weren't at all desperate when it was considered you and Thor were a scumteam - that would also have ended in a loss from your POV if you're town.

As for the buddying thing - I genuinely want to know Toto's opinion as he's the only one I can trust. Whether you accept it or not I couldn't really give a shit as I'm pretty sure you're scum.

for one, see the above post. for two, that wasn't about to end in my immediate lynch - i was (and still am) confident that when thor flips i can win it in lylo. in this situation, a lynch would happen on someone i know is mod-confirmed town - myself. i know for a fact that this will instantly end the game, so obviously i'm trying to avoid this.

What made you so certain that the NSG/UCV discussion would have resulted in your lynch first and that the Thor/NSG discussion would not have?

[Thor665]

Why can't I 1v1 UCV - you really need to justify that town read hardcore if you want me 1v1ing within derp.

This is not an unreasonable request or response - and I carried on the conversation with you for a few exchanges - and you didn't give me ANYTHING resembling a decent answer.
Your strongest point was "You debate better than UCV"

Well, quite frankly, looking at the thread, I debate better than NSG and Lucca also - so...?

You needed a town case.
You had nothing.
Thus the rule out was unsupported by any logic.

[Thor665]

Anyway, this topic is getting outdated so I'd prefer if we left it there.

Just as long as you agree that basically what you were trying to do was split hairs over me saying 'hard bussing' while agreeing without question that if I had said 'bussing' you'd 100% agree with me.

Well if you've fully caught up you would see I am now very much less confident on my initial UCV read, so I may indeed 'sheep' you on that, if I can assure myself you are not scum partners yourselves.

I am caught up - I'm just trying to sort why you apparently can't read my iso for a hill of beans.

1. If you could walk me through your read progression on UCV then that would be nice.

I'm not sure I had a read progression. I pretty much found him objectionable most of the time.
My only ponder was trying to sort if he was obv. scum or lynchbait.
Anyone who says otherwise about that slot (like you and NSG both) is bewildering to me.

2. Plain and simply, you are intent on lynching UCV today and are not willing to consider an alternative lynch. I don't think that's misrepresenting you?

I think it is as I literally quoted myself considering it.

Just as there is a difference between bussing and distancing

A vastly more tiny difference - sure.

But yes, even though I'm aware my own reads are worth as much as Toto's, it's always helpful to get a second opinion from a source you can trust.

Nah.
Like, say I could absolutely town clear UCV.
Would you seriously consider his reasoning?
Don't lie

If your idea of debating is boring your opponent into submission by endlessly asking them to define every word of their argument in turn...

It's funny you want to dwell on that - since the conversation in question was me claiming I was bing hard bussed, and you trying to claim I wasn't by, first restricting the timeline, then debating the difference between a bus and distancing, and then claiming that the amount of "active bussing" was key.

But I'm the pedant who is causing problems by trying to get you to clarify your position (and argued you into a corner where you're kind of forced to clarify it to proceed and your solution is to ask for the conversation to be dropped.)

Yeah, sure, guess I suck at debate.

[Thor665]

1. No, even if you'd said 'bussing' instead of 'hard-bussing' I wouldn't have agreed with you. Bussing would be like what you're doing with UCV if you're partners - you are genuinely trying to get your partner lynched - the same doesn't apply to what NSG was doing if she was your partner. But if it stops this tedious discussion from continuing, then fine - you can be right on this one.

2. Maybe you have time to read and re-read everyone's ISO in minute detail, but I don't at the moment. Perhaps later I will have a bit of time, but I'm not sure why you don't just save everyone time and directly quote what it is you're referring to.

3. So what made you decide he is obv scum instead of lynchbait?

4. You considered the idea of lynching someone else, fine. You still chose to vote UCV regardless though and your current position seems to be that you're not budging from that vote.

5. Meh.

6. UCV? With a pinch of salt, perhaps. Toto seems a pretty reasonable player though and is certainly not coming to any rash conclusions.

7. Part of the problem is that whenever you do respond you are behind the play and a lot of what you are talking about loses relevance, hence why I asked for the discussion to be dropped. If this was a debating game then sure, I'd debate with you endlessly as you seem to enjoy doing, but so much of what you're saying isn't pertinent to what's actually going on in the game, nor is it helping me or presumably others ascertain a clearer read on you.

1. Riiiight.
2. Frankly I was trying to get a reaction out of you either standing behind your ISO read being right (in which case I could catch you as a liar) or admitting that you did a shoddy job )which...eh, can be potentially read either way but I'd have probably called a town tell) instead you went with this middle road option.
3. Analysis of play, VCA, and other reads. Unless you're saying that I should have scum read Toto or thought Luca/NSG was a good team theory.
4. Okay, so now we agree I assessed the situation so you're moving the goalposts to complain that I'm confident on a vote that, if you are town, you now know is on scum. Cry me a river - my play must be terrible
5. Meh to you also.
6. Thus proving my point even if you struggle not to admit it. For instance, you now have to admit UCV is scum, but before you were arguing him as town and were peeved that I didn't follow Toto's plan - I just proved that a non-confirmed slot can have potentially superior reads to a confirmed one. You're welcome.
7. I find that to be an issue with the rest of you, frankly. I understand the logical flaw there - but I stand by the statement that their is no case on me, so all of you having trouble reading me are, methinks, doing something wrong.

Thor - thanks for pointing out all the inacuracies and logical fallacies in my statements. Can you now tell me who is scum between Luca and NSG, and also explain those reads? Ill keep repeating this until you either do that or I dont give a damn about this game anymore and vote you.

I've answered the question twice now - what part of my answer confuses you?
Also, in light of the UCV result - I endorse the one you don't.

UCV is now confirmed scum to you. Show me all the scummy stuff he has done, as well as Rc and zemaj.

I've already discussed the scummy stuff - you called it Newbie stuff.
What part of *that* answer didn't you understand?

If you are town we can chat about this after the game.

I look forward to it.

My problem with Thor is that he is spending a lot of time arguing definitions, and talking about the logic of certain statements.

Apparently this is how Thor reads people, but this is also a good place to hide by scum as it is a lot easier for them to talk and argue about objective facts (Logic, Definitions, Etc) than it is to express subjective opinions and emotions they don't really believe or feel.

You have caught me.
I am arguing logic, talking about objective facts, and not using emotions to vote.

How dare I?
What the hell? You're literally describing good play and complaining that I'm doing it.

if we take it that ucv is town then the scumteam has to be thor/luca, yes?

From your perspective, yes.

Hey guys. I think we should get Thor’s opinion on that one first.

Lynching me or UCV?
I support lynching UCV.
Putting me at L-1 to test NSG?
It's the same as lynching me tomorrow instead of her as far as game testing - so it's just a question of whether you want to accelerate the game to its endstage.
I don't support it due to knowing my alignment and not hers, but it's the same as lynching me, so if you're going to do that tomorrow regardless then doing it now is the same thing.

[Thor665]

Thor,

I'm going to make this easy:

1) Suppose we lynch UCV today, I get NKed, you somehow get to choose the lynch tomorrow, gun to your head, who would you choose? Possible answers: [a) NSG, b) Luca]

For bonus town points:

2) Explain why. (extra town points if it exceeds 140 characters)

I'd flip a coin.

Let me make it simple for you - with you or I as the obvious NK - why do you think it benefits you to hear my thoughts while also allowing scum to hear them?

[Thor665]

NSG
Thor and Luca should e conf scum to you! as the team possibilities have boiled down to UCV/NSG & Luca/Thor

I DOn't think you understand how this situation works, but thanks for the thoughts.

[Thor665]

Ok, let's clear Luca + UCV.

@Thor

, when you a are back I need you to vote NSG to test Luca + UCV. Let me explain to you why I want to do this:

If we successfully clear them then the possible teams a down to:

UCV + NSG
UCV + Thor
Luca + Thor

Luca + UCV

Which means that if we then succesfully lynch scum then our lylo chances go up to 50% from 33% because we always have one confirmed townie in the three way lylo.


I've really tried to collaborate with you and all I get back are non-answers and pedantic positions. When you post next time, one of your posts is going to be one of the following three things:

1) A vote on NSG (You can blame me if we lose because of this)
2) A town case on NSG
3) A scum case on Luca

I will 100% vote you if that is not the case, or if you try to bend the rules in any way I deem unsatisfactory (i.e. no pedantic tricks). You are an objective person, and I'm not (some of the time). If you are town you will lose 100% chance if I vote you. I'd say it would be better to flip the coin if you have to.

This is dumb as, it stands a chance to lose us the game, and it dictates scum kills too much to allow NK analysis.

That said, at this stage the matter is settled.

The scum team is either Luca and I ( )
Or NSG and UCV.

The ball is in your court Toto, choose right and die and scum lose in lylo, or choose wrong and scum win.
I suggest you lynch UCV.
Amazingly this test doesn't alter town's wincon beyond what just choosing between me and UCV today and, if right Luca and NSG tomorrow would have done.
The test was the same as a lynch.

[Thor665]

I think UCV might be town after all.

Do you have a case this time or just more sturm and drang signifying nothing?

[Thor665]

Thor - can you now make your case on NSG? She is confirmed scum to you.

My case would be what I already said and add in a side of obvious UCV defense until being backed into voting me. But I actually don't think that's too brilliant as a tell since basically two people I know are town have been doing the same because that slot is impossible to lynch.

I'd note that a better arguement is that I don't make sense as a scumbuddy to anyone as I've attacked and been attacked by all - so, y'know, enjoy that Luca/Thor scum theatre I guess.

[Thor665]

unless i've missed something, isn't a team of you and ucv still a technical possibility? if ucv does flip red this is something to look at.

Yeah, we *totes* look like partners.
Nice cover to his eventual red flip though.

[Thor665]

i don't think you're partners, it's just misleading to say that it's not possible for you to be partners.

This is why I eyeroll - you're saying this to me like I'm town.
All you're hanging on is that Luca and I are scum theatre and that Toto clings to his really weird UCV town read which he can barely explain and it's going to come out how empty it is.

[Thor665]

You're bringing up the UCV thing to try to cover your butt tomorrow to still give your team some sort of chance.

[Thor665]

Right, so I, as scum, would go into today with the plan of bussing Thor and presumably getting UCV on my side, and then after I have achieved this to perfection I then decide to throw it down the drain and vote UCV, conforming to the guy I was banking on winning me the game that I'm scum?

This isn't a reasonable conclusion.

YES, because you thought you could win day four and not risk a 1v2 day 5!

But literally nothing changed to make him think that.

[Thor665]

Right, so I, as scum, would go into today with the plan of bussing Thor and presumably getting UCV on my side, and then after I have achieved this to perfection I then decide to throw it down the drain and vote UCV, conforming to the guy I was banking on winning me the game that I'm scum?

This isn't a reasonable conclusion.

YES, because you thought you could win day four and not risk a 1v2 day 5!

But literally nothing changed to make him think that.

i'm pretty sure you made your post about how, if you were scum, your partner was acting really stupid bussing when they could've just sheeped you onto ucv. like, i'm pretty sure that post came between luca's initial push on you and him changing his mind and going onto ucv. you can't conclusively say that nothing changed because you don't know luca's thought process.

Well, if you wish to be pedantic; "nothing in the gamestate changed"
There.

@UCV: Yes but your point was that I was worried you might suspect me at some point - in that case why would I vote you? I could even suspect you without voting you, giving you room to still townread me which you did, but why would I vote you there? It makes no sense.

you didn't vote ucv until toto pointed out that you should be voting him:

If you find that to be an issue - the same thing happened with UCV.
So...?

The problem of scum!you leaving your vote on Thor is that it would have confirmed UCV and NSG not partners when NSG didn't hammer. Which means that Thor would have no choice than to powerbus you because I would have forced him to vote you instead of UCV. And we would have ended up lynching either of you today.

no, really - why does it matter to you? you believe that me and ucv are scum, yes? if so, why does it seem like you're trying to convince me that i'm scum or convince me that my partner is scum? or, are you just constantly bringing the point up as a way to attack my credibility?

Personally I'd just like to see you provide the meta backup.
Before I thought it was just potentially bad town play - now it looks like scum ducking the question because she's making gak up to protect a partner.

I’ve been asking in many possible ways to Thor to help me read him better by engaging nsg or you. Maybe he has tried to do this but Ive missed that effort in between the lines. So my guess is Thor chose to vote ucv and refuses to collaborate to deny town information. He is pretty good scum and his tone and way to sort people is not different from his scum games.

I don't hamstring my town play to protect my weak scum play. I play good scum because I perfectly capture my town play.
If you think I'm playing poorly - you're just judging what I normally do.
To be perfectly frank, I could provide quotes of scum caught by me as town complaining about how I kept pressuring and needling them and wanting info till they felt helpless and exposed.
I play decent town.
Don't analyze this stupidly just because you don't 'get' how I play decent town.

That would be on you.

I've caught scum this game - you're still hemming. Sheep me and play better.

[Thor665]

Yes...?
I think you're reading that really badly if you think I'm addressing it without the current concept that she is scum.

[Thor665]

Before

I thought it was just potentially bad town play -

now

it looks like scum ducking the question because she's making gak up to protect a partner.

She is confirmed scum to you...

Hint, these two words matter a lot to the timeline.

[Thor665]

I can't pretend I can read you.
I can't pretend I can read UCV (just look at his other games).

Okay...

That leaves me NSG and Luca which you have not helped me sort. I'm not saying you are bad. I'm telling you look scummy because you are refusing to help me sort people out. Why?

You're refusing to communicate with me on the UCV case - does that make you scummy?
This is a silly argument, both of us are simply more focused on the argument we subjectively feel is more clear.
Also, unlike you, I *have* been discussing both Luca and NSG scum, and literally just pointed out some pretty major points about NSG, one of which you managed to misread in context, and, when I corrected you, didn't decide to follow up - then you complain that I'm not helping you enough.

I really feel the roadblock is on your end, I'm saying a LOT over here.
If you're missing it all you need to try to help me figure out why you're missing it.

[Thor665]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

[Thor665]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

Show me some things she has said or done and tell me why they are scum motivated. What is her plan?

Okay.

Remember that thing I brought up just minutes ago about her UCV defense and when I explained the scum plan to it?
How about that as a start?

I'm already and have been doing this.

[Thor665]

i don't think you're partners, it's just misleading to say that it's not possible for you to be partners.

This is why I eyeroll - you're saying this to me like I'm town.
All you're hanging on is that Luca and I are scum theatre and that Toto clings to his really weird UCV town read which he can barely explain and it's going to come out how empty it is.

Okay, here's another.
I point out a language shift, explain her scum goals for the lynch, and explain why she is getting suddenly active and flaily.

[Thor665]

first, my point is that scum went into day two and day three relatively comfortable. the pressure has obviously increased as both scum have made it to lylo and the night three kill represents an attempt to eliminate some of that pressure.

How did that kill reduce pressure in a way that a Toto kill would not?

toto's reads weren't clear upon his replacing in, and thus scum couldn't know the effect killing him would have. given the unknown result and the known result with relatively equal benefits (probably more scum benefit for killing lucca, from what i understand he does a lot of lategame gamesolving), scum would choose the known result.

So, scum, feeling the pressure - killed something that was causing no pressure to avoid changing the set situation?
This actually sounds like you're returning to the comfort stance - which I already argued about, and you claimed wasn't your stance.

Here's another.
I point out how her case is using changing logic to support itself - which shows she isn;t using logic, which shows she is scum with a motive - now within the context of th eknown scumgroups the motive bears a lot of fruit.

[Thor665]

How many of these do I need to quote for you?

Read my posts!

[Thor665]

Sure I guess?

Vote: Northsidegal

This is meaningless though. And also, as if a kick to my nuts, not a discussion of the stuff you just had me quote for you.

[Thor665]

for a stressful lylo situation he's been arguing a lot of definitions and semantics. unlike me, ucv and luca, it doesn't seem like he's actively trying to convince people on anything or sell someone his case. he also seems to have avoided commenting on a lot of the mechanical solving talk that we've all gone over regarding the scumteams. it doesn't seem like he's as invested in solving this game as everyone else, and to me that seems like he doesn't have any solving to do - he already knows everyone else's alignments.

1. I am actually annoyed that multiple people seem to think I've been arguing definitions - I haven't, I was using definitions to showcase issues with Luca's case - large difference, I was *never* sidelining an opinion. Which is the point of arguing definitions.

2. Yeah, I totally wasn't trying to sell UCV as scum? In what universe?

3. Now after saying definition sare scummy she claims I'm avoiding mechanics talk...whut? Those are the same sort of things. Also, I discussed the mechanics and the lynch situation multiple times - more than her or UCV assuredly. SO if it is a scumtell...meh.

Whoop-de-doo, awesome rebuttal of insightful case?

[Thor665]

Tell me why we shouldn't lynch UCV.

Because Toto somehow thinks a choice between me/NSG is "easier" than me/UCV for no reason at all.

[Thor665]

You are all very scummy at this point

No, actually we aren't.
You're also explicitly asking for everyone to try to present scummy reasoning on everyone else and then not analyzing it - which is why you're getting caught in the doldrums.

[Thor665]

I got terrified when Thor started to buss, but when people started to say that a UCV/Thor scum team wasn't possible, i started to calm down. then i realized we won no matter which of us got lynched.

Exactly
The primary goal was just to murder Thor/UCV thinking - which we eventually did.
Toto asking for the vote switch and testing just sped stuff up.

Man, I don't want to be conftown again.

I think your problem was you weren't narrowing your options at all - you have to think of what is most likely and what is least likely, and then rule out the latter.

That's why I working so hard to convince you I was Town, which means UCV would be scum, and then we'd have definitely one conf town alive on the final day.

Pretty much agree with this - I was being honest when I said you were asking us to mudd each other up (a decent play move but then you weren't doing anything with it (which leaves you in paranoia hell). You needed to actually engage with the logic and follow up with questions in order to (maybe) kill paranoia and leave you with some clear thoughts.