Mini Normal 2322: Game Over

[Flavor Leaf]

Why is CW so hard to get?

Because scum and town both are defending. This means scum don’t want CW faded.

It implies that CW is scum, or town who is expected to help scum win.

I think that flip is best here.

Yeah!! This one still really wants cw here even if it thinks he's much more likely to be town than scum because it's super clear that he is NOT going to be even REMOTELY helpful to town when shit hits the fan. It's just moved to Pav because it seems like its literally just the two of us who are willing to commit to cw.

lol, might as well put CW as green on VC's.

[Flavor Leaf]

Votecount 1.3

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2024-01-02 07:27:34).

Votecount

Laplacian (4)

- ssbm_kyouko,

Abnegation

, Pavowski, HighPrincessErinys

Flavor Leaf (2)

-

Flavor Leaf

, cw357

Abnegation (1)

-

Laplacian

cw357 (1)

- Joyboy

DragonEater70 (1)

- geraintm

HighPrincessErinys (1)

- DragonEater70

Not Voting (3)

- Hu Tao, Purplemango,

Thomith

Looking at the VC, I know I'm town - assuming this is correct, it would be one of Pavowski/HPE - I don't particularly think these 2 can be partnered.

Somehow the middle of my post here got lost while I was previewing the color tags, I think I hit ctrl-z at the wrong time, so this next part is rewritten.

I really wanted this to be correct, because it would make it easy to find one scum between 2 players. I don't think it's necessarily correct though. Looking at the wagons, we have one wagon on town!Laplacian being spearheaded by town (me). The rest of the wagons amount to vanity wagons with 1 vote a piece - I'm not counting Flavor's vote on himself, and we know he's town anyways. Point is, there is no counterwagon to Laplacian. Nobody is trying to stop it with a counterwagon, which includes scum. They could be on the wagon now, sure, but they could just as easily be chilling on vanity wagons/not voting while town rips itself apart.

Example: 3 of {cw57, Joyboy, geraintm, purplemango} could reasonably be scum from the quoted VC

In fact, I have town read Lap since early.

Scum is on Lap right now.

legendary.

and note, after these posts started to be made by Kyouko, after Kyouko came in and pushed HPE, THAT is when they were finally able to be faded.

Kyouko did great here.

[Flavor Leaf]

Thing is, I can see Vig + Cop vs JK

Vig + Cop + JK has the potential to win N1, which i don’t love.

I agree that seems strong for us. But scum probably have 2 strong prs left?

i saw you say this earlier in my reread against just a Vig/Cop. I am torn with you. There's a lot of things that I can see coming from Tao Town, but I think if you are town, Dragon has used you this game a lot, and thus is forcing an associative from you. Right now, I think 3rd scum is you or maybe Geraint, but frankly, I'm starting to see the town Geraint I know. Purple or Gamma have some, but it's a little harder for me to see on this reread of mine.


PEdit: I'm starting to see that, Geraint. Would you be open to voting Dragon? I think that would ease the associations, because I dont believe you bus here.

[Flavor Leaf]

this is my swan song
scum is probably dragon+hu tao+hpe
I called it
tbh I don't even care anymore

it's possible this is a hero solve, and the VCA kind of backs this up showing that all 3 of them wanted CW dead, and CW was almost limmed without me even being on it after pushing it for so long.


When I think about what's more likely, CW hero solving and getting shut down in game thread compared to CW being scum and having a situation that looks like they could jsut be hero solving, I dont see a world where CW is scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

this is my swan song
scum is probably dragon+hu tao+hpe
I called it
tbh I don't even care anymore

Setting aside DE/HT, why is HPE scum over Pavowski? I feel these two are very clearly unaligned and I would lean toward Pavowski being scum more often than HPE

Kyouko felt there was 1 scum in Pav/HPE, and I agreed with that. Kyouko started to lean towards Pav over Kyouko.

I believe Kyouko was a better puppet to be able to manipulate by DE, and it benefited keeping Kyouko alive for scum there.

I obviously felt that scum didn't really want Kyouko, either due to Kyouko being scum or they wanted else, but they settled for it. It was an amazing flip.

[Flavor Leaf]

Feels like Kyouko already knew that was there and is acting like they didn’t

explain?

Can someone voting dragon explain that? I don't see it

pushed laplacian while maintaining distance yesterday in a very un-towny way
pocket attempts
a lot of interactions stuff, if a dragon wagon actually becomes a big thing I could ISO

Basically i think Kyouko already knew that FBI soft was there, and is acting like they just found it to help push a narrative. It’s sussy baka if they knew about it in Day 1.

Same thing occurred to me but I didn't know if that was the paranoia talking

It sure feels like I'm seeing Pavowski *behind* a lot of ideas but not giving a lot of his own ideas

VOTE: Pavowski
I do think I prefer this over cw because there's a possibility cw is being used as a townbeard. I agree with the points made that, if town, cw could be a liability in ELO given his tunneling hasn't stopped yet. Maybe it stops soon though if he is town?

Idk if it's stopped or not

We just need to vig cw

But I can support a Pav wagon

lol dragon knows that if I were to flip green by getting elim-ed he, hpe, and hu tao would suddenly be vig targets ahahahahahahah
very smart

Counter: I've been asking FL to vig me since he claimed vig

Also why would I want FL to vig Hu Tao, who I think is town?

Feels like Kyouko already knew that was there and is acting like they didn’t

explain?

Can someone voting dragon explain that? I don't see it

pushed laplacian while maintaining distance yesterday in a very un-towny way
pocket attempts
a lot of interactions stuff, if a dragon wagon actually becomes a big thing I could ISO

Basically i think Kyouko already knew that FBI soft was there, and is acting like they just found it to help push a narrative. It’s sussy baka if they knew about it in Day 1.

Same thing occurred to me but I didn't know if that was the paranoia talking

It sure feels like I'm seeing Pavowski *behind* a lot of ideas but not giving a lot of his own ideas

VOTE: Pavowski
I do think I prefer this over cw because there's a possibility cw is being used as a townbeard. I agree with the points made that, if town, cw could be a liability in ELO given his tunneling hasn't stopped yet. Maybe it stops soon though if he is town?

Idk if it's stopped or not

We just need to vig cw

But I can support a Pav wagon

none of this lines up with the action they made.

[Flavor Leaf]

Fuck this I'm just going to sheep Flavor

Clearly he's not going to work with me and he's conftown so whatever

I'll graciously accept getting vigged tonight if Flavor is wrong

VOTE: cw

Pedit: okay that makes me feel slightly better about this vote

I am not on CW right now.

and imo, that's telling.

my solve right now is Kyouko, Hu Tao or DragonEater, and then HPE/Geraint/Joyboy

Fuck this I'm just going to sheep Flavor

Clearly he's not going to work with me and he's conftown so whatever

I'll graciously accept getting vigged tonight if Flavor is wrong

VOTE: cw

Pedit: okay that makes me feel slightly better about this vote

this is manipulative posting considering CW is E-1, and I'm not voting there.

this is absolutely not town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also finally got around to that ISO lookin' at and yeah this one is okay with this if cw isn't possible. And even then it might just be tunneled as fuck on cw considering it literally acknowledges he's town, just a liablity.
VOTE: Kyouko E-1

UNVOTE: Kyouko
That'll go back on in the morning or I'll hammer or whatever but I don't want this getting rushed

I have a funny feeling all of a sudden

Maybe it's the gummies

But I don't wanna pass out and wake up in the morning to some foolishness

HT we are trying to preserve a balance here

VOTE: Kyouko

I feel very good about Pavowski on this reread, and just in general. If they're scum, they pocketed me, and I generally feel when I am in a pocket. Like how I feel everytime Dragon starts to convince me. They are making plays to turn me in their favor because they have no choice but to kill me on a misfade after we hit HPE or risk game over.

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually fucking yeah thinking about the wagon shifts is giving me a brain blast. Kyouko/Hu Tao/Pavowski team feels very possible with Pavowski re-voting and trying to play it cool and not look too suspect after HT also gets off. Maybe this one is overlooking the possibility of Dragon since he's a townlean for it and needed a nudge from Kyouko (and similarly to Pav, has said it's only a temporary unvote) but even then it feels like there's BARE MINIMUM 2 scum in Kyouko/Pav/HT/Dragon.

Actually fucking yeah thinking about the wagon shifts is giving me a brain blast. Kyouko/Hu Tao/Pavowski team feels very possible with Pavowski re-voting and trying to play it cool and not look too suspect after HT also gets off. Maybe this one is overlooking the possibility of Dragon since he's a townlean for it and needed a nudge from Kyouko (and similarly to Pav, has said it's only a temporary unvote) but even then it feels like there's BARE MINIMUM 2 scum in Kyouko/Pav/HT/Dragon.

Gonna go take a walk and then probably go to the store afterwards but this is the solve honestly.

there is 100% a bus in here. it's really not Pav based on Pav having been in talks for a while, but as soon as Kyouko pushes HPE, HPE makes this post. There's a bus here, and it's like almost always Dragon. Maybe a double bus with Hu Tao, but never 0.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s the way they both wanted people to know they are very much still on the wagon. But they literally aren’t

VOTE: kyouko

This is E-2 - don't E-1 me without Gamma's catchup.

naughty of hu tao. They gave a 'nice gesture' earlier with their unvote (Hu Tao's unvote was rough because they double unvoted after Pavowski unvoted, Dragon did so later as well), but they didn't stay unvoted before Gamma's catchup right after HPE got pushed by Kyouko?

[Flavor Leaf]

I think Dragon's just been trying to control my vote and planning to deep wolf.

At some point if Dragon is scum he will have to kill you. So we worry about that then.

Nah. This is a 'wait and see'.

We dont wait and see with this.

You're implying to wait until AFTER I'm dead to fade Dragon, which just doesn't happen after I die.

[Flavor Leaf]

today is Dragon. Then I get to vig and die.

[Flavor Leaf]

Lmao - HPE's trajectory on Pavowski is similar to what it is on me. It starts RVS on Pavowski but at some point decides Pavowski is town (which reinforces the push on Laplacian because Laplacian was pushing Pavowski's really early posts like on end of page 2/top of page 3). Once it declares Pavowski towny on D1 it keeps that opinion.

On D2, when DragonEater tells HPE to read Pavowski and Hu Tao, it does so, and at this point still says it thinks Pav is towny

in 901. The next time it mentions Pavowski is in 955 where it says to dragon it can maybe see Pav is scum but still thinks he is town, and posts a reminder to itself to check on Kyouko and PM.

In 1028 the read changes from town!Pav to "warming up to the idea of scum!Pav" and take a look at 1149 - Pav has the same complaint about HPE in 1109 that I have now - HPE is vague, by it's own admission, about why it SRs Pav. And yet, when I asked HPE why it SRs Pav it said I would find the reasoning in it's ISO.

HPE I maybe feel a little better about flipping, I'm a little sus of her recent change of heart on me (felt a little too easy if you ask me) and there has certainly been some opportunistic play there outside of that as well

You probably think it was a "little too easy" because this one wasn't exhaustively listing the things it didn't about your recent posts.

Anyway, VOTE: cw

HPE is blatantly faking convenient scumreads on players that are under pressure. This is scum.

Spoiler: raw quotes from HPE's ISO about Pav, but you may as well ISO her yourself and ctrl+f "pav" like I did

RVS wit no RV what da hell

VOTE: Pavowski

*pokes thread with a stick*

What, do you people have jobs or something?

Somebody vote Kyouko for that smell thing, that was weird, wasn't it?

That way I can defend her and be all "nah that's totally normal, actually"

I'm finding myself not liking this post. Its giving me a weird gut ping that it feels fake but I dont know how to explain it fully.

You mentioned earlier that we were early on in the day, but here you are acting like there is a sense of urgency that feels like a subtle contradiction.

Why are you trying to get other people to vote Kyouko for something that you find weird? Why not lead the charge yourself if you want to get the game moving?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pavowski

Thomith don't you think maybe you're jumping the gun a bit? Pavowski's post seems a little, teensy tiny bit, blatantly, shitposty.

i think shitposting is still just a mask, and can be alignment indicative either way. I dont think there's enough to discern a correct answer with Pavowski at all. I lean town, but wouldnt die on that hill.

Never said Pavowski was completely fine, but still seems like an overreaction to me from Thom.

going to read everything this one missed in a sec here but saw a bunch of votes moving around Pavowski so time to UNVOTE: Pavowski before something stupid happens

going to read everything this one missed in a sec here but saw a bunch of votes moving around Pavowski so time to UNVOTE: Pavowski before something stupid happens

regret

Like I think town would rather ask Thomith about their read instead of trying to stop him?

So you're also jumping the gun and making the implication that you think me and Pavowski are partnered because this one scratched it's head at Thomith's overreaction.

Pavowski
DragonEater
Laplacian
Joyboy

thoughts on my green tier, HPE?

Only one this one really agrees with is like Pavowski and DE because ofc this one is actively scumreading Lap and Joyboy is... This one is tuning their existence out for the time being.

Lemme check myself before taking someone this one is wary of at face value

Okay checks out thank you :salute:
VOTE: Laplacian

To elaborate this one disagrees on Abne doing nothing but illusory acts of help, but more importantly just doesn't really think there's that "comedic veneer" from Pavowski and that 46 and 51 are secretly totally serious. ESPECIALLY not a fan of the sudden mood change after a reread, compare and contrast how 226 and 228 talk about Pavowski. Still don't like those early posts but certainly willing to write things off. It reeks of "scum failed to get people to kill this guy so they're walking away and saying 'yeah but i think they're cool now'".

Just to be clear, this one says it

disagrees

with Laplacian's assessment of Pavowski's 46 and 51, right? Or is this one saying it thinks that Pavowski was being serious in 46/51 without a "comedic veneer"?

(Am I using this one's pronouns right, I'm not sure if I should use "you/your" or "this one/this one's")

Disagrees, yes.

(You/your is fine.)

Pav and Hu Tao

you got it boss, see y'all tomorrow

Pav's ISO has quite a bit of townie energy imo and there's a few standout posts this one particularly likes, such as 335 and 869. In general Pav feels very genuine in alot of his posts and points and this one is happy with putting him down as town. Though this one also finds it weird how you tried to shoot down 870 ngl.

On the other hand this one has fucking nothing for Hu Tao LMAOOOO. This one couldn't reallllly get anything of note out of reading her ISO and when it took a look at its last games with her, Smuggler's Port and love child, it realized that it just cannot read her well because these ISOs are like all fucking identical. And she was town in SP and scum in LC so like!!! Fuck!!! This one still wants to put her down as a scumlean for her lame pushes on me earlier but that's really about it. Going to look more thoroughly later for sure, though.

im still pissed that I was (presumably?) wrong about flavor
UNVOTE:

How does this change your reads

see below

Oh I see, DE is scum trying to bait out the real vig
VOTE: DE

well this means at least one scum in DE/Kyouko, which I could have seen already.
I arrive at the following conclusion:
If Kyouko is town then DE/Flavor ig could be w/w? Maybe both Kyo and DE are scum
But I'm going to go out on a limb and VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko
prob should vig DE if kyouko flips town

I'm not going to pretend to understand the logic of why this post means Kyo or DE or *both* could be scum, but the more I sit with it the more scum!Dragon makes sense to me

VOTE: Dragon

This is definitely a scum post

Like Pav isn't even pretending to have a reason to vote me. It's thinly veiled OMGUS on a slot that he sees is coming under fire, when he needs to divert attention off hinself after the towncore starts suspecting him.

Game solved GGEZ

This one can see it with the example you quoted but it's still like, pretty pleased with his earlier play? But it supposes this could be a caught scum flailing moment or however you wanna describe it. This one will think on it. Reminder to me also to go and take a look at PM and Kyouko because they've not been on it's radar all that much this game.

This one is warming up to the idea of scum!Pav but it definitely feels like we're overlooking the lurkers even as we say "well there could be scum there..........."

I wish I could see HPE alignment without having to flip them, lol. that's a big key slot here for me right now.

also you could just shoot me anyway

Let me explain my thought process on Pav, because I sorta intentionally didn't explain it earlier as I'd wanted to see reactions to my vote on him.

Day 1 he was being voted/shaded for some eary game weirdness which I was willing to ignore as I could see coming from town. Then he made more posts which came across as towny.

However today with Abnegation flipping green and me re-evaluating my scumread on HPE (I think HPE is nulltown right now FWIW), I realized I'd been most likely townreading scum. And while his posts *sound* towny, they are definitely NOT impossible to fake, which makes him the likeliest person to be the scum I'd been townreading. He *sounds* like he's trying to solve the game, but when I actually read his posts I cannot an actual thought process about people's alignments to which I could say "yeah, this person actually had this thought and is actually trying to figure things out".

VOTE: Pavowski
Think this post hit the nail on the head for me especially with how poor Pav's D2 posting has been.

HPE I maybe feel a little better about flipping, I'm a little sus of her recent change of heart on me (felt a little too easy if you ask me) and there has certainly been some opportunistic play there outside of that as well

You probably think it was a "little too easy" because this one wasn't exhaustively listing the things it didn't about your recent posts.

Anyway, VOTE: cw

can you give me a short list for everyone?

Flavor Leaf

cw357

(but needs to Get Real or Get Dead)

DragonEater70

Hu Tao
ssbm_Kyouko (this one needs to bother reading her iso so fucking bad)
Purplemango

geraintm

Joyboy

Pavowski

Purplemango feels the best out of the 3 lurkers but all of them really, really need to start contributing.

yep, the kicker. This is 100% a Dragon/HPE world.

[Flavor Leaf]

How come

I feel some push on the gamestate from them both .

My town read on Pavowski was mainly on tone.

And HPE wagon main wagon got turned into a Lap wagon, and I was able to feel that was a wagon scum wanted instead.

So I think HPE has scum equity because of that, especially considering Abnegation flipped town.

This feels pretty rare my dude. You saw me make the mistake of thinking this about HPE in BTXVII.

This is possible for Gamma as the 3rd scum partner, considering I was correct. Right now, it's either Hu Tao or Gamma as the 3rd for me.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gamma can read me I am safe

Genuinely, what was our last game together where we were both town and I read you correctly?

also kyouko, why did you just auto assume gamma was town here?

Kyouko hasn't been very interested in Joyboy all game outside of hypothesizing him as a partner to scum!Lap (along with... 6 other players.) and some random off-hand inclusions in scumpools before suddenly changing her tune and asking others why Joyboy is scum. Now that Gamma's replaced in she's sucking up to her hoping to get bailed out meaning either:
A. scum!Kyouko thinks town!Gamma can save her hide with a "correct" townread.
or B. lol they're partnered

I don't think I agree with B. Since it looks like Kyouko was more pleading rather than anything.

Gamma can read me I am safe

Genuinely, what was our last game together where we were both town and I read you correctly?

also kyouko, why did you just auto assume gamma was town here?

Kyouko hasn't been very interested in Joyboy all game outside of hypothesizing him as a partner to scum!Lap (along with... 6 other players.) and some random off-hand inclusions in scumpools before suddenly changing her tune and asking others why Joyboy is scum. Now that Gamma's replaced in she's sucking up to her hoping to get bailed out meaning either:
A. scum!Kyouko thinks town!Gamma can save her hide with a "correct" townread.
or B. lol they're partnered

I don't think I agree with B. Since it looks like Kyouko was more pleading rather than anything.

Yeah it's probably A but still thought it was an interesting possibility.

This looks like Hu Tao arguing in favor of a conditional temp bussing by HPE onto Gamma, and then HPE agreeing with it. Good post at the time by HPE.

[Flavor Leaf]

Pavowski
CW

Geraintm

Purple Mango

Hu Tao
Gamma Emerald

DragonEater

Geraint could be wrong, but it's where I'm leaning after this reread and how I do think CW was right we were playing against powerwolves. Hu Tao could have been right with Joyboy scum read.

I don't see a world where Dragon is scum here.

There's absolutely no reason for scum not to hop at this wagon either, so it's incredibly damning.

If Hu Tao is town, they are an unreliable narrator and in deep of the Dragon pocket.

[Flavor Leaf]

I feel like the “third scum” is the better aim for today if Dragon is scum because I think he’s boxed into bringing a clear to the end if he ends ip last scum alive.
Has Dragon actually declared he’s ungated JK? This idea only works if he has.

Why does boxing in a clear matter? He has Purple and Hu Tao setup to be cleared.

[Flavor Leaf]

I could be sold on scum!Purple, especially given recent play as I said earlier

I could also be sold on scum!CW, I think there's merit in the HPE/CW beef as s/s

That would leave out Dragon and Hu Tao, though

i agree with merit in HPE/CW potential beef.

That being said, I think CW since Day 2 has been spitting pure genuineness, even at the extent of being ridiculous.

And I actually think based on the way DE and CW reacted to my vig, they arent scum together here (also CW push on DE)

VOTE: DragonEater

I'm willing to take this day to stop DE. I've been trying to die frankly, because I can completely tell scum are actively trying to work me.

Terrible vote

Correct vote.

[Flavor Leaf]

I am not getting convinced off of Dragon here.

I am right. If you want any sort of credibility to try and stop me with this push, make some better cases than 'terrible vote'

just looks like a play from a pocketee or partner defending.

[Flavor Leaf]

I feel like the “third scum” is the better aim for today if Dragon is scum because I think he’s boxed into bringing a clear to the end if he ends ip last scum alive.
Has Dragon actually declared he’s ungated JK? This idea only works if he has.

he claimed 2-shot, then acted again.

They also specifically played survivalistcally on Night 2 with it when I was hitting scum.

Also, in that small situation where Dragon would be town, and then I somehow vig town after that, town is still in a 3-2 scenario.

So it's cap to say it's a terrible vote when worst case scenario, get to play late game mountainous with 4 full days to read off of.

That is WORST case scenario.

[Flavor Leaf]

Thing is, I can see Vig + Cop vs JK

Vig + Cop + JK has the potential to win N1, which i don’t love.

I agree that seems strong for us. But scum probably have 2 strong prs left?

i saw you say this earlier in my reread against just a Vig/Cop. I am torn with you. There's a lot of things that I can see coming from Tao Town, but I think if you are town, Dragon has used you this game a lot, and thus is forcing an associative from you. Right now, I think 3rd scum is you or maybe Geraint, but frankly, I'm starting to see the town Geraint I know. Purple or Gamma have some, but it's a little harder for me to see on this reread of mine.


PEdit: I'm starting to see that, Geraint. Would you be open to voting Dragon? I think that would ease the associations, because I dont believe you bus here.

If you think it's Gera why not just vote with me on gera?

You see, I don't get a Vig with Dragon living. On a setup level, it doesn't make sense for Dragon to be town here based on the setup.

You talk about scum having 2 Strong PR's still.

What have they been doing with them then? Role Cop. Weak af. Ascetic to block a Jailkeeper shot and cop? Fine, then it still makes sense to hit the JK here.

There's just reasons and reasons why Dragon is objectively and mechanically scum here, and you aren't providing a single reason against it.

And thats because I think you are pocketed probs, could you be defending and you played together that much? Sure.

But speak to me, Hu Tao. Why does Dragon town read you?

[Flavor Leaf]

I feel like the “third scum” is the better aim for today if Dragon is scum because I think he’s boxed into bringing a clear to the end if he ends ip last scum alive.
Has Dragon actually declared he’s ungated JK? This idea only works if he has.

Why does boxing in a clear matter? He has Purple and Hu Tao setup to be cleared.

Okay, do you think he can sway either of them in 3p?

yes. 100%. Either of them. To be fair, im open to either of them being the partner, but there's too many possibilities of a misfade with going for the 3rd.

[Flavor Leaf]

Going Dragon means I get a vig shot off, and can help shape the finals easier. Dragon has actively been avoiding me letting that happen.

[Flavor Leaf]

I feel like the “third scum” is the better aim for today if Dragon is scum because I think he’s boxed into bringing a clear to the end if he ends ip last scum alive.
Has Dragon actually declared he’s ungated JK? This idea only works if he has.

he claimed 2-shot, then acted again.

They also specifically played survivalistcally on Night 2 with it when I was hitting scum.

Also, in that small situation where Dragon would be town, and then I somehow vig town after that, town is still in a 3-2 scenario.

So it's cap to say it's a terrible vote when worst case scenario, get to play late game mountainous with 4 full days to read off of.

That is WORST case scenario.

You didn’t telegraph shit and were sounding like you were shooting Dragon. WHY THE FUCK WOULD HE NOT USE HIS NIGHT ACTION TO SURVIVE AS TOWN?

I actively stated multiple times on Day 2 I would not be shooting Dragon.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do agree it was better to try and stop a kill as jk than jail you after getting scum yesterday. But if he was scum why wouldn't he just kill someone else here? Or you and pretend he was on someone else?

he needed the deepwolf plausibility.

I do not see Pav or CW ever being scum here. Not with the way HPE was playing towards them.

I do not see Geraint/Purple ever being a thing here either.

Now, with that, Gamma vs Hu Tao almost surely has a scum in them, and both of you are defending Dragon.

What do you take of Kyouko's push on HPE/Dragon?

[Flavor Leaf]

Thing is, I can see Vig + Cop vs JK

Vig + Cop + JK has the potential to win N1, which i don’t love.

I agree that seems strong for us. But scum probably have 2 strong prs left?

i saw you say this earlier in my reread against just a Vig/Cop. I am torn with you. There's a lot of things that I can see coming from Tao Town, but I think if you are town, Dragon has used you this game a lot, and thus is forcing an associative from you. Right now, I think 3rd scum is you or maybe Geraint, but frankly, I'm starting to see the town Geraint I know. Purple or Gamma have some, but it's a little harder for me to see on this reread of mine.


PEdit: I'm starting to see that, Geraint. Would you be open to voting Dragon? I think that would ease the associations, because I dont believe you bus here.

If you think it's Gera why not just vote with me on gera?

You see, I don't get a Vig with Dragon living. On a setup level, it doesn't make sense for Dragon to be town here based on the setup.

You talk about scum having 2 Strong PR's still.

What have they been doing with them then? Role Cop. Weak af. Ascetic to block a Jailkeeper shot and cop? Fine, then it still makes sense to hit the JK here.

There's just reasons and reasons why Dragon is objectively and mechanically scum here, and you aren't providing a single reason against it.

And thats because I think you are pocketed probs, could you be defending and you played together that much? Sure.

But speak to me, Hu Tao. Why does Dragon town read you?

I think it's cause he has read me wrong as town before tbh. But regardless I think his claim is town.

Okay. That's a fair point.

I think he's using that to his advantage, personally.

And I think it's blatantly obvious how much HPE was flowing alongside Dragon.

[Flavor Leaf]

As in I was town and he thought I was scum all game

Yo.

That is obviously coming from scum then.

He changes that much after 1 single game and doesnt doubt it for a second when his initial gut was to scum read you hard?

I get giving you a little bit of leeway and a pass, but he hasn't doubted it for a second, and without reasons.

Nah, that's a scum case on Dragon for me.

[Flavor Leaf]

best pav case imo

This response felt like you had some alternative idea that prevented you from really agreebut you didn’t want to share. Have you posted it, if not could you please do so?

your case on Pav was the best case I've seen for a scum Pav case all game, even though people were trying so hard Day 2 to hit them.

However, I think that's DragonEater with My reads, not Pav with me.

Pav and I lowkey been vibing together all game, and I really don't think they're trying to pocket.

Dragon has the energy of scum trying to control me and thinks they can, then when i sway away, they get super chaotic.

[Flavor Leaf]

Lmao - HPE's trajectory on Pavowski is similar to what it is on me. It starts RVS on Pavowski but at some point decides Pavowski is town (which reinforces the push on Laplacian because Laplacian was pushing Pavowski's really early posts like on end of page 2/top of page 3). Once it declares Pavowski towny on D1 it keeps that opinion.

On D2, when DragonEater tells HPE to read Pavowski and Hu Tao, it does so, and at this point still says it thinks Pav is towny

in 901. The next time it mentions Pavowski is in 955 where it says to dragon it can maybe see Pav is scum but still thinks he is town, and posts a reminder to itself to check on Kyouko and PM.

In 1028 the read changes from town!Pav to "warming up to the idea of scum!Pav" and take a look at 1149 - Pav has the same complaint about HPE in 1109 that I have now - HPE is vague, by it's own admission, about why it SRs Pav. And yet, when I asked HPE why it SRs Pav it said I would find the reasoning in it's ISO.

HPE I maybe feel a little better about flipping, I'm a little sus of her recent change of heart on me (felt a little too easy if you ask me) and there has certainly been some opportunistic play there outside of that as well

You probably think it was a "little too easy" because this one wasn't exhaustively listing the things it didn't about your recent posts.

Anyway, VOTE: cw

HPE is blatantly faking convenient scumreads on players that are under pressure. This is scum.

Spoiler: raw quotes from HPE's ISO about Pav, but you may as well ISO her yourself and ctrl+f "pav" like I did

RVS wit no RV what da hell

VOTE: Pavowski

*pokes thread with a stick*

What, do you people have jobs or something?

Somebody vote Kyouko for that smell thing, that was weird, wasn't it?

That way I can defend her and be all "nah that's totally normal, actually"

I'm finding myself not liking this post. Its giving me a weird gut ping that it feels fake but I dont know how to explain it fully.

You mentioned earlier that we were early on in the day, but here you are acting like there is a sense of urgency that feels like a subtle contradiction.

Why are you trying to get other people to vote Kyouko for something that you find weird? Why not lead the charge yourself if you want to get the game moving?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pavowski

Thomith don't you think maybe you're jumping the gun a bit? Pavowski's post seems a little, teensy tiny bit, blatantly, shitposty.

i think shitposting is still just a mask, and can be alignment indicative either way. I dont think there's enough to discern a correct answer with Pavowski at all. I lean town, but wouldnt die on that hill.

Never said Pavowski was completely fine, but still seems like an overreaction to me from Thom.

going to read everything this one missed in a sec here but saw a bunch of votes moving around Pavowski so time to UNVOTE: Pavowski before something stupid happens

going to read everything this one missed in a sec here but saw a bunch of votes moving around Pavowski so time to UNVOTE: Pavowski before something stupid happens

regret

Like I think town would rather ask Thomith about their read instead of trying to stop him?

So you're also jumping the gun and making the implication that you think me and Pavowski are partnered because this one scratched it's head at Thomith's overreaction.

Pavowski
DragonEater
Laplacian
Joyboy

thoughts on my green tier, HPE?

Only one this one really agrees with is like Pavowski and DE because ofc this one is actively scumreading Lap and Joyboy is... This one is tuning their existence out for the time being.

Lemme check myself before taking someone this one is wary of at face value

Okay checks out thank you :salute:
VOTE: Laplacian

To elaborate this one disagrees on Abne doing nothing but illusory acts of help, but more importantly just doesn't really think there's that "comedic veneer" from Pavowski and that 46 and 51 are secretly totally serious. ESPECIALLY not a fan of the sudden mood change after a reread, compare and contrast how 226 and 228 talk about Pavowski. Still don't like those early posts but certainly willing to write things off. It reeks of "scum failed to get people to kill this guy so they're walking away and saying 'yeah but i think they're cool now'".

Just to be clear, this one says it

disagrees

with Laplacian's assessment of Pavowski's 46 and 51, right? Or is this one saying it thinks that Pavowski was being serious in 46/51 without a "comedic veneer"?

(Am I using this one's pronouns right, I'm not sure if I should use "you/your" or "this one/this one's")

Disagrees, yes.

(You/your is fine.)

Pav and Hu Tao

you got it boss, see y'all tomorrow

Pav's ISO has quite a bit of townie energy imo and there's a few standout posts this one particularly likes, such as 335 and 869. In general Pav feels very genuine in alot of his posts and points and this one is happy with putting him down as town. Though this one also finds it weird how you tried to shoot down 870 ngl.

On the other hand this one has fucking nothing for Hu Tao LMAOOOO. This one couldn't reallllly get anything of note out of reading her ISO and when it took a look at its last games with her, Smuggler's Port and love child, it realized that it just cannot read her well because these ISOs are like all fucking identical. And she was town in SP and scum in LC so like!!! Fuck!!! This one still wants to put her down as a scumlean for her lame pushes on me earlier but that's really about it. Going to look more thoroughly later for sure, though.

im still pissed that I was (presumably?) wrong about flavor
UNVOTE:

How does this change your reads

see below

Oh I see, DE is scum trying to bait out the real vig
VOTE: DE

well this means at least one scum in DE/Kyouko, which I could have seen already.
I arrive at the following conclusion:
If Kyouko is town then DE/Flavor ig could be w/w? Maybe both Kyo and DE are scum
But I'm going to go out on a limb and VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko
prob should vig DE if kyouko flips town

I'm not going to pretend to understand the logic of why this post means Kyo or DE or *both* could be scum, but the more I sit with it the more scum!Dragon makes sense to me

VOTE: Dragon

This is definitely a scum post

Like Pav isn't even pretending to have a reason to vote me. It's thinly veiled OMGUS on a slot that he sees is coming under fire, when he needs to divert attention off hinself after the towncore starts suspecting him.

Game solved GGEZ

This one can see it with the example you quoted but it's still like, pretty pleased with his earlier play? But it supposes this could be a caught scum flailing moment or however you wanna describe it. This one will think on it. Reminder to me also to go and take a look at PM and Kyouko because they've not been on it's radar all that much this game.

This one is warming up to the idea of scum!Pav but it definitely feels like we're overlooking the lurkers even as we say "well there could be scum there..........."

I wish I could see HPE alignment without having to flip them, lol. that's a big key slot here for me right now.

also you could just shoot me anyway

Let me explain my thought process on Pav, because I sorta intentionally didn't explain it earlier as I'd wanted to see reactions to my vote on him.

Day 1 he was being voted/shaded for some eary game weirdness which I was willing to ignore as I could see coming from town. Then he made more posts which came across as towny.

However today with Abnegation flipping green and me re-evaluating my scumread on HPE (I think HPE is nulltown right now FWIW), I realized I'd been most likely townreading scum. And while his posts *sound* towny, they are definitely NOT impossible to fake, which makes him the likeliest person to be the scum I'd been townreading. He *sounds* like he's trying to solve the game, but when I actually read his posts I cannot an actual thought process about people's alignments to which I could say "yeah, this person actually had this thought and is actually trying to figure things out".

VOTE: Pavowski
Think this post hit the nail on the head for me especially with how poor Pav's D2 posting has been.

HPE I maybe feel a little better about flipping, I'm a little sus of her recent change of heart on me (felt a little too easy if you ask me) and there has certainly been some opportunistic play there outside of that as well

You probably think it was a "little too easy" because this one wasn't exhaustively listing the things it didn't about your recent posts.

Anyway, VOTE: cw

can you give me a short list for everyone?

Flavor Leaf

cw357

(but needs to Get Real or Get Dead)

DragonEater70

Hu Tao
ssbm_Kyouko (this one needs to bother reading her iso so fucking bad)
Purplemango

geraintm

Joyboy

Pavowski

Purplemango feels the best out of the 3 lurkers but all of them really, really need to start contributing.

yep, the kicker. This is 100% a Dragon/HPE world.

This one is warming up to the idea of scum!Pav but it definitely feels like we're overlooking the lurkers even as we say "well there could be scum there..........."

I wish I could see HPE alignment without having to flip them, lol. that's a big key slot here for me right now.

also you could just shoot me anyway

this is huge.

HPE was not afraid of being shot because they knew they could be protected.

DE also likes gambits, and I can tell probably wanted to pull one.

I just think everything is lining up for DE scum.

Oh I see, DE is scum trying to bait out the real vig
VOTE: DE

they saw it!!!!

im still pissed that I was (presumably?) wrong about flavor
UNVOTE:

How does this change your reads

see below

Oh I see, DE is scum trying to bait out the real vig
VOTE: DE

well this means at least one scum in DE/Kyouko, which I could have seen already.
I arrive at the following conclusion:
If Kyouko is town then DE/Flavor ig could be w/w? Maybe both Kyo and DE are scum
But I'm going to go out on a limb and VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko
prob should vig DE if kyouko flips town

so did CW if Kyouko flips town. Dragon Eater HAD to do something to become townier, so they gambited.

im still pissed that I was (presumably?) wrong about flavor
UNVOTE:

How does this change your reads

see below

Oh I see, DE is scum trying to bait out the real vig
VOTE: DE

well this means at least one scum in DE/Kyouko, which I could have seen already.
I arrive at the following conclusion:
If Kyouko is town then DE/Flavor ig could be w/w? Maybe both Kyo and DE are scum
But I'm going to go out on a limb and VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko
prob should vig DE if kyouko flips town

I'm not going to pretend to understand the logic of why this post means Kyo or DE or *both* could be scum, but the more I sit with it the more scum!Dragon makes sense to me

VOTE: Dragon

good on Pav.

[Flavor Leaf]

Pav and Hu Tao

you got it boss, see y'all tomorrow

Pav's ISO has quite a bit of townie energy imo and there's a few standout posts this one particularly likes, such as 335 and 869. In general Pav feels very genuine in alot of his posts and points and this one is happy with putting him down as town. Though this one also finds it weird how you tried to shoot down 870 ngl.

On the other hand this one has fucking nothing for Hu Tao LMAOOOO. This one couldn't reallllly get anything of note out of reading her ISO and when it took a look at its last games with her, Smuggler's Port and love child, it realized that it just cannot read her well because these ISOs are like all fucking identical. And she was town in SP and scum in LC so like!!! Fuck!!! This one still wants to put her down as a scumlean for her lame pushes on me earlier but that's really about it. Going to look more thoroughly later for sure, though.

This was HPE actively being helped in thread by DE to get a better standing and look like HPE was doing something. HPE gave almost nothing all game, but happens to give it when Dragon asks for it, and HPE calls them Boss even. Like, in the moment, that's fine. In hindsight, the way HPE acted towards DE is exactly what a scum partner following the lead scum does.

This. We talked about all game how CW had given more reasons than HPE. Hu Tao agreed with me. And yet, they talk to Dragon this way.

I asked that one multiple times for reads, and couldn't get anything from them, and I was Confirmed Town. Confirmed scum flip makes this look very bad on top of everything else.

[Flavor Leaf]

How close is dragon on votes rn?

just me.

CW is likely to join, and Pav I hope would, but cant remember if they said.

[Flavor Leaf]

Day 1

Spoiler:

1.1

DragonEater70 (1)

- geraintm

Flavor Leaf (1)

- Pavowski

Hu Tao (1)

-

Thomith

Not Voting (10)

-

Abnegation

, cw357, DragonEater70,

Flavor Leaf

,

HighPrincessErinys

, Hu Tao,

Laplacian

, Gamma Emerald, Purplemango,

ssbm_Kyouko

1.2

Flavor Leaf (3)

- Pavowski,

Flavor Leaf

, cw357
Pavowski (2) -

Thomith

,

Laplacian

Abnegation (1)

-

Abnegation

DragonEater70 (1)

- geraintm

Laplacian (1)

-

ssbm_Kyouko

Not Voting (5)

- DragonEater70,

HighPrincessErinys

, Hu Tao, Gamma Emerald, Purplemango

1.3

Laplacian (4)

-

ssbm_kyouko

,

Abnegation

, Pavowski,

HighPrincessErinys

Flavor Leaf (2)

-

Flavor Leaf

, cw357

Abnegation (1)

-

Laplacian

cw357 (1)

- Gamma Emerald

DragonEater70 (1)

- geraintm

HighPrincessErinys

(1)

- DragonEater70

Not Voting (3)

- Hu Tao, Purplemango,

Thomith

1.4

Laplacian (5)

-

ssbm_kyouko

,

Abnegation

, Pavowski,

HighPrincessErinys

, geraintm

HighPrincessErinys (3)

- Hu Tao,

Flavor Leaf

, DragonEater70

Flavor Leaf (1)

- cw357

Abnegation (1)

-

Laplacian

cw357 (1)

- Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (2)

- Purplemango,

Thomith

1.5

Laplacian (5)

-

ssbm_kyouko

,

Abnegation

,

Pavowski,

HighPrincessErinys

, geraintm

Abnegation (2)

- DragonEater70,

Flavor Leaf

Gamma Emerald (2)

- cw357, Hu Tao

cw357 (1)

- Gamma Emerald

HighPrincessErinys (1)

-

Laplacian

Not Voting (2)

- Purplemango,

Thomith

1.6

Laplacian (7)

-

ssbm_kyouko

,

Abnegation

, Pavowski,

HighPrincessErinys

, geraintm, DragonEater70,

Flavor Leaf

Gamma Emerald (2)

- cw357, Hu Tao

cw357 (1)

- Gamma Emerald

HighPrincessErinys (1)

-

Laplacian

Not Voting (2)

- Purplemango,

Thomith

Day 2

Spoiler:

2.1

cw357 (2)

-

Flavor Leaf

,

HighPrincessErinys

Flavor Leaf

(1)

- cw357

geraintm (1)

- Gamma Emerald

Gamma Emerald (1)

- Hu Tao

Pavowski (1)

- DragonEater70

Not Voting (4)

- geraintm, Pavowski, Purplemango,

ssbm_Kyouko

2.2

cw357 (4) - DragonEater70, cw357,

HighPrincessErinys

, Hu Tao
geraintm (1) - Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (5) -

Flavor Leaf

, geraintm, Pavowski[, Purplemango,

ssbm_Kyouko

2.3

cw357 (3) - cw357,

HighPrincessErinys

, Hu Tao
geraintm (1) - Gamma Emerald
Pavowski (1) -

ssbm_Kyouko

ssbm_Kyouko

(2) -

Flavor Leaf

, DragonEater70

Not Voting (4) - geraintm, Pavowski, Purplemango

2.4

cw357 (1) - cw357
geraintm (1) - Gamma Emerald
Pavowski (1) -

ssbm_Kyouko

ssbm_Kyouko

(4) -

Flavor Leaf

, DragonEater70,

HighPrincessErinys

, Pavowski

Not Voting (3) - geraintm, Purplemango, Hu Tao

2.5

cw357 (1) - cw357
geraintm (1) - Gamma Emerald
Pavowski (1) -

ssbm_Kyouko

ssbm_Kyouko (3) -

Flavor Leaf

,

HighPrincessErinys

, Pavowski

Not Voting (4) - geraintm, Purplemango, Hu Tao, DragonEater70

2.6

cw357 (1) - cw357

ssbm_Kyouko

(4) -

Flavor Leaf,

HighPrincessErinys

, Pavowski, Hu Tao

HighPrincessErinys

(1) -

ssbm_Kyouko

Not Voting (4) - geraintm, Purplemango, DragonEater70, Gamma Emerald

2.7

ssbm_Kyouko

(4) -

Flavor Leaf

,

HighPrincessErinys

, Hu Tao, cw357

HighPrincessErinys

(1) -

ssbm_Kyouko

cw357 (1) - Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (4) - geraintm, Purplemango, DragonEater70, Pavowski

2.8

ssbm_Kyouko

(4) -

Flavor Leaf

, HighPrincessErinys, Hu Tao, cw357

HighPrincessErinys

(1) -

ssbm_Kyouko

Gamma Emerald (1) - DragonEater70

Not Voting (4) - geraintm, Purplemango, Pavowski, Gamma Emerald

2.9

ssbm_Kyouko

(5) -

Flavor Leaf

,

HighPrincessErinys

, Hu Tao, Pavowski, cw357
Gamma Emerald (2) - DragonEater70,

ssbm_Kyouko

Not Voting (3) - geraintm, Purplemango, Gamma Emerald

2.10

ssbm_Kyouko

(6) -

Flavor Leaf

,

HighPrincessErinys

, Pavowski, Hu Tao, cw357, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2) - DragonEater70,

ssbm_Kyouko

Not Voting (3) - geraintm, Purplemango

Day 3

Spoiler:

3.1

DragonEater70 (1) -

Flavor Leaf

geraintm (1) -

HighPrincessErinys

HighPrincessErinys

(1) - DragonEater70

Not Voting (6) - cw357, Gamma Emerald, geraintm, Hu Tao, Pavowski, Purplemango

3.2

cw357 (1) - Pavowski
DragonEater70 (1) -

Flavor Leaf

geraintm (1) -

HighPrincessErinys

HighPrincessErinys

(1) -

DragonEater70

Pavowski (1) - Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (4) - cw357, geraintm, Hu Tao, Purplemango

3.3

HighPrincessErinys

(5) - DragonEater70, Hu Tao, Gamma Emerald,

Flavor Leaf

, Purplemango
cw357 (1) - Pavowski
geraintm (1) -

HighPrincessErinys

Not Voting (2) - cw357, geraintm

Day 4

Spoiler:

4.2

Pavowski (2) - Gamma Emerald, DragonEater70
DragonEater70 (1) -

Flavor Leaf

geraintm (1) - Hu Tao

Not Voting (4) - cw357, geraintm, Pavowski, Purplemango

[Flavor Leaf]

1.4 to 1.5 is a big one. HPE has unflipped slots in DE and Hu Tao move off when they can pick up steam.

ALWAYS scum in that.

Look at 2.2 to 2.4. Only flip on CW is a red flip. This was around CW having a possible hero solve, and the talk of the day was a lot wanted CW, even after I was off of it. If anything, i got more after I was off of it.

Look at how DE and HPE move together to Kyouko.


2.10 is not good for DE being on Gamma with a sole Kyouko green flip after all that, and I believe thats because 2 scum are already on the Kyouko wagon. 1 in HPE, 1 in an unflipped Hu Tao or Gamma probs.


Day 3, Dragon sits on HPE all day, that's a planned bus if i ever saw one.

[Flavor Leaf]

Alright, sorry for all the posts, but i thought it was important to reread and do analysis based off of that.

That's good enough for me for now. Dragon is scum here.

[Flavor Leaf]

also, another big one, we just gonna sit here and act like all 3 scum claim Vanilla in a low PR game with no scum revealed?

Especially considering if scum were really going against JK, Cop, and Vig, as Hu Tao said, there would be 2 strong PR's on the scum team, and they just all choose to claim Vanilla, and then we hit a Goon?

Ya, no.

This is a JK or Roleblocker, Goon, Goon vs Cop/Vig setup

[Flavor Leaf]

make sure Geraint and Purple both come in and comment on Dragon before the day ends.

[Flavor Leaf]

yeah jailkeeper is the obvious fakeclaim for an rb, also I find it hard to see both being in a setup at the same time so dragon prob felt safe doing it

i think it could be scum Jailkeeper to give the option of protecting a teammate from a vig kill.

in hindsight, i think Hu Tao 2 PR comment constantly is probably scum tmi.

[Flavor Leaf]

Nobody’s play here makes sense as scum

[Flavor Leaf]

I think Dragon’s play is like objectively the one that looks most like scum

[Flavor Leaf]

We already know scum saw something with Thomith’s crumb that they shot there.

And you don’t think that same scum would know that I was obv gonna shoot HPE?

DragonEater is the only one besides maybe Hu Tao or Gamma I see picking up on that stuff.

And at the end of the day, a ScumDrag had to pay attention to that stuff, especially after I claimed Vigilante. They were on mega edge.

Their play doesn’t make sense except to be scum trying to get cleared as town to deep wolf.

I specifically claimed multiple times that I would not be shooting Dragon.

They couldn’t risk me shooting any 3 of them.

Especially considering their attitude at the beginning of Day 3, when they still tried to act like I was ruining the game somehow and look at this gamestate. Kyouko flip auto lead us to HPE (who should have been killed that night, but I digress).

Going the No Kill gambit route is 100% better than having me shoot one of the scum members and revealing a red flip in the game.

HPE scum flip spews CW, Pav, and imo, Geraint, as town.

Scum does not shoot at me two nights in a row like that if my reads are bad. They just don’t

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, having a No Kill last night doesn’t extend the game at all either. Scum have to get the same amount of misfades, and they keep an extra slot open to misfade today.

I would say this implies specifically a Scum JK considering scum cannot kill me without my vig shot going through and opening the game up.

Even if they try to kill me, I’m going to rip open the game. They have no choice but to stop me from making a kill.

I called the gambit out BEFORE he even claimed the role.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t think it was pretty clear i town ready you to the extent i wouldn’t Vig you OR your partner.

And if you thought that on Night 3 and not Night 2 when I actively stated I wouldn’t be shooting at you Night 2, then yeah lol

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m locked in. This pop in confirms it for me

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm not going to self-vote here though because self-voting as a PR is really stupid and I still think flipping Pav or Gamma would be so much better.

Pav is a never vote slot for me.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm not going to self-vote here though because self-voting as a PR is really stupid and I still think flipping Pav or Gamma would be so much better.

Pav is a never vote slot for me.

Sucks for you I guess

This is how you can tell this is coming from scum-- why would it suck for me?

If Pav is scum, with me being confirmed town, this means every other townie in the game have to vote Pav for Pav to be faded. This implies Dragon knows scum will join on the wagon, and not require 5 town votes on Pav.

So it really doesn't suck for me.

It sucks for Dragon. This mindset is why Dragon is scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t think kyouko ever brought out her tell on me in this game though so I see her lockscumming me as just an emotional outburst

She actually went towards HPE and some Dragon connections by the end of it. HPE flowing around Dragon, and Kyouko also seeing it is one of the key reasons I think Dragon is scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Kyouko also called out how HPE had the exact same read progression on Pav that they had on them.

[Flavor Leaf]

I also said multiple times this day phase that the partner is 1 of 4 players, so Dragon overpushing Hu Tao as the main partner, when I've even given multiple reasons against that possibility this day phase and trying to discredit and minimizing the case to a simple just Hu Tao as the partner is another minimization of it, and simply used to try to discredit.

I have actively put multiple posts from Hu Tao that I felt were anti partnery, and thought Hu Tao was in a pocket. She's still one of the main candidates, but by no means the only one.

Basically anyone but Pav/CW for me there.

[Flavor Leaf]

I thibk there was like no shot where you killed me or Hu Tao last night, Flavor

And if you did we would have just taken the L as scum. Leaving you alive makes NO SENSE for scum me.

Makes no sense for a town you, i have already stated why it actually makes more sense coming from a scum Dragon than a town Dragon.

I should have been allowed to make a kill and die, frankly. No reason to not try and stop the kill directly, but you chose to prevent me from making a kill when I had already proven my reads were on the right track with HPE.

On top of that, from your own acknowledgement, you thought there was a very minimal chance I would shoot you or Hu Tao. If you are town, then that leaves 4 other slots, 50% of which would be scum slots.

If it's being said I would shoot Geraint, it made no sense for me to be blocked there and not have just shot Geraint.

If Geraint is scum, that would leave one more.

In addition to that, I am the biggest defender of Pavowski,it would have been easier for a Town Dragon to gain momentum onto Pavowski or even a Gamma without me alive.

Blocking me makes no sense coming from a town mindset there.

[Flavor Leaf]

Dragon has been saying that Purple and Hu Tao are always town here. With me also being town, that left Gamma, Pav, CW, and Geraint. It was looking like I would shoot Geraint, right? (I had said I was starting to lean town on Geraint yesterday, but I digress), but even with those odds, that is a 25% chance of blocking a kill going one of those slots, and I could have eliminated another from play, yet they chose to prevent me from making a kill.

The math of the game not mattering if a kill went through or not made sense to No Kill there too because it didn't open up another reveal.

The scum team with any combination of those 4 players also would never No Kill since Dragon claimed 2-shot JK.

[Flavor Leaf]

it was just a completely scum motivated move.

[Flavor Leaf]

if Dragon is scum, and doesn't get faded today, they win this game. I'm locked from shooting, and don't trust them even if they said they would go elsewhere.

They are today's fade.

If somehow somehow they flip town, I will vig in their reads, and then tomorrow you can hit scum.

Scum has absolutely no power shown this game.

I dont ever believe Geraint, Purple, Joyboy, or CW see that crumb by Thomith, so it requires a Hu Tao or Dragon by default to make the kill on Thomith.

On so many levels, they're just scum here.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, you do realize that when I flip town you get roleblocked and can't shoot in my scumreads anyway? There's a confirmed roleblocker.

Also

You are just fucking tunneled

Do me a favor, and do the following: take a break from this game for one day. Come back and pretend you have no reads or biases and read the game from the start and tell me what your reads are

If I'm really scum you should be able to find me anyway.

pretty sure thats what already happened, considering you were saying I was town reading you.

I reread the entire game today, and you and HPE are so aligned

What do you mean there's a confirmed roleblocker? When has that ever been shown in this game? You have been the one blocking.

If there was your JK and a scum blocker in this game, they would be blocking me and killing elsewhere IF my reads were poor, which is already shown not to be the case.

[Flavor Leaf]

Like, I literally just reread the entire game and that's how I got back TO you.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, you do realize that when I flip town you get roleblocked and can't shoot in my scumreads anyway? There's a confirmed roleblocker.

Also

You are just fucking tunneled

Do me a favor, and do the following: take a break from this game for one day. Come back and pretend you have no reads or biases and read the game from the start and tell me what your reads are

If I'm really scum you should be able to find me anyway.

pretty sure thats what already happened, considering you were saying I was town reading you.

I reread the entire game today, and you and HPE are so aligned

What do you mean there's a confirmed roleblocker? When has that ever been shown in this game? You have been the one blocking.

If there was your JK and a scum blocker in this game, they would be blocking me and killing elsewhere IF my reads were poor, which is already shown not to be the case.

I literally said that I jailed you night 1 and your kill went through, so I was blocked.

Remember the whole show I made about being a 1-Shot BP? That was to get the roleblocker off me.

Pav is super aligned with HPE mate. How tf am I aligned? Because I unvoted HPE after Pav came in with a hard refutal of my case? That's called being an uninformed townie being manipulated by scum

One second, gonna quote all that.

Who would you target tonight?

[Flavor Leaf]

ngl I’m tired and just want this game to end
Can people post their top 2 preferred votes? Mine are Dragon and Hu Tao

Dragon & Purpleheart

[Flavor Leaf]

Not my preferred two votes, i don’t think Purple ever over Dragon, but I’m kinda feeling that

[Flavor Leaf]

Here’s my thing, and maybe it’s wrong, but I feel like if I wasn’t conf town, Pav and Gamma wouldn’t be pushing me still.

I feel Dragon and Hu Tao would be

[Flavor Leaf]

why do you keep calling zem purpleheart?

Idk, but I really do.

It’s purple mango. Damn.

[Flavor Leaf]

My bad, Mango. I thought you were purpleheart for some reason

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s either dragon scum or Hu Tao scum, though.

Scum really have no reason not to just role block me if that’s the case.

I don’t believe they shot at me twice in a row.

[Flavor Leaf]

I just don’t feel like they were appeasing me at all. If anything, I lined up with him.

[Flavor Leaf]

I also think CW getting heat when they did without me on it implies scum wanted CW gone on the reread, but couldn’t because I moved away.

[Flavor Leaf]

I just don’t feel like they were appeasing me at all. If anything, I lined up with him.

And I was?

Frankly, you’ve been trying to sway me one way or another all game

[Flavor Leaf]

Even if town

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s already after we were linked up

[Flavor Leaf]

I do get some town energy from dragon here and there, but idk. Don’t feel you went about this the right way to get me to trust you more.

I also really really don’t like the Hu Tao/Dragon dynamic, and even if Dragon is town, and Pav is scum, I think Hu Tao’s the partner there.

So I’d rather break that up before my death because worst case scenario it leads to something.

[Flavor Leaf]

How is it different than what you say you’re doing?

[Flavor Leaf]

I do get some town energy from dragon here and there, but idk. Don’t feel you went about this the right way to get me to trust you more.

I also really really don’t like the Hu Tao/Dragon dynamic, and even if Dragon is town, and Pav is scum, I think Hu Tao’s the partner there.

So I’d rather break that up before my death because worst case scenario it leads to something.

How would I go about it the right way? Let scum nightkill you?

Yes. Me dying would have been fine

[Flavor Leaf]

I believe it’s quite hard to do it at this point, and was more of a journey to get to this point if so.

If you’re town, game goes to 3-2 worst case scenario tomorrow, it might be 4-2 if I’m blocked.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s just the time to deal with the possibility and cover the bases.

Cuz otherwise, it requires blind faith that you are town here.

And if you are town, I don’t trust you to find Hu Tao scum

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t trust my shot to go off.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s a rough situation.

The curse of being the conf town. It becomes a two side war.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Pavowski

Jail me tonight.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s just the time to deal with the possibility and cover the bases.

Cuz otherwise, it requires blind faith that you are town here.

And if you are town, I don’t trust you to find Hu Tao scum

I've kinda been asking you for blind faith a lot, like when I said Kyo is just town and I can't give you reasons. But I believe that if you truly search your heart you can find the truth and accept me as town with blind faith. Or you could just think back to all the moments yoj were townreading me and ask yourself why.

Also, if your shot on Hu Tao doesn't go off after Pav flips scum then I'll vote Hu Tao.

It’s also on you to make someone want to give you the blind faith, though, and you hadn’t

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m the conf town, it’s in the nature to get pocketed and flop back and forth.

On the townies to break it out

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s not purely faith in your read, to be fair.

Jail me 100% of the time tonight.

I make it through tomorrow, or they have to block you to kill me and let’s my kill go through.

[Flavor Leaf]

When I play Devil’s advocate, I usually end up on the correct path.

[Flavor Leaf]

Or convince I had been on correct path.

[Flavor Leaf]

If I die tonight, and Pav is town, always go in Hu Tao or Dragon tomorrow.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: DragonEater

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Pav

i have no clue.

[Flavor Leaf]

dragoneater JKing me just automatically does make sure i get a kill or survive to the next day.

a sick bargaining chip

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Dragon

[Flavor Leaf]

i like Pav vibes better in real time than i like Dragon's.

If Dragon is town, they're too frantic here.

Pav feels a lot more calm and if i die i die, and they have since the beginning of the game.

on top of that, hu tao/dragon has relied on blind faith to convince others, and while that's all good and dandy, and i agree with that, it's still not okay for them to not try and reason with it. if they can see them as town so easily, it should be easy to give some more reasons, and i just dont think im willing to bet the game on both of them being town.

so I will go Dragon priority, or make the jump of Hu Tao fade, and Dragon jails me.

[Flavor Leaf]

and this has me line up with Gamma and CW too, which shows group thought.

Pav not making the kill shot vote on Dragon feels big, and theyve been willing to back off and wait all game.

Pav's unvote on Kyouko was far better than Hu Tao and Dragon's as well.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao and Gamma is very possible.

Especially with the way Hu Tao sat on Joyboy all game.

[Flavor Leaf]

maybe, I just feel like you're specifically trying to undermine flavor and I think it could be agenda driven

What???

yeah not a good look. gamma, if scum, was still right about this

[Flavor Leaf]

Okay Flavor, I know this might sound opportunistic as shit, but it's actually not. I'm genuinely thrown off by HT's insistence not to vote either me or Pav this day phase.

So, now's your time to explain to me why she's scum in the world where I am town and Pav is scum.

I can probably do a lot more later, but real quick

She got reason to keep you and Pav alive.

If you die, that’s a giant defense against her gone

The way she unvoted Kyouko after Pav did was baaaaaad

Her and HPE fill opposite sides of the VCA, and merge when necessary

[Flavor Leaf]

Good point. I guess since day 2 it's felt like flavor has been running the show as clear, I haven't put much effort into casing since then. I've been trying to poe it out. Same reason I voted hpe.

So when I start asking for people to case MORE is when you decide to case LESS?

lol

VOTE: Hu Tao

Jail me Dragon

[Flavor Leaf]

I just don’t see a world where there isn’t scum in you or dragon based on the way the gamestate went.

One of you got pocketed.

[Flavor Leaf]

Why wouldn’t they change their game plan the next time they were scum against you then?

[Flavor Leaf]

Seems like they would 100% play a different way

[Flavor Leaf]

If i could town read Hu Tao a little more, I might sheep them.

[Flavor Leaf]

What if it’s Purple and Geraint?

[Flavor Leaf]

Gamma saying you imply my shot wouldn’t go off

[Flavor Leaf]

When there’s a chance we hit the roleblocker today

[Flavor Leaf]

If they’re scum, that’s probably what they gotta do right now.

[Flavor Leaf]

I take Hu Tao as near devoid of emotion when in the game, especially if scum, but like in a trying to be that kinda way, so I doubt it’s actually intentionally purposeful from her.

If she’s scum, she’s just trying to win in a sticky situation.

[Flavor Leaf]

HPE wouldn't put so much effort into discrediting me if I was its partner, it would just tell me to move off it in the scum PT.

HPE seemed to go after me too. would you think that clears me?

There's a difference between "go after" (push) and discredit (try to make someone's points invalid).

I don't think it clears you but I don't think you have a particularly partnered ISO from when I last checked?

I mean, there's the obvious association of HPE knowing that one's going down to bus their partner to anti-associate, but I called that out immediately, and they kept going too much, so i WIFOM'd they were doing it too much. There is partner equity, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

i kinda town read the 'well i dont want you to' when i said id vig geraint, though

[Flavor Leaf]

what if we kill Purple

i think they're scum here.

Dragon can jail me, and then we go tomorrow. If they're scum, cool, we're in a decent spot. If they're town, we got that out of the way, and then only one left. We can go Purple->Geraint if Purple is scum, and then maybe all 4 of you are all town.

[Flavor Leaf]

cuz like, i get town pings from all of you at times, and maybe we're just arguing about it because scum are inactive.

[Flavor Leaf]

I specifically would like Purple before Geraint, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

geraint's done more, not by much, but more

[Flavor Leaf]

Make sense
stiil kinda weird fir me to talk here but i guess i'm more active then the last game i was in

For now, i prefer to vote pav or hu tao

What’s your thoughts on Hu Tao? What’s pinging you there?

[Flavor Leaf]

Nah I’m never going CW

[Flavor Leaf]

viewtopic.php?p=13928539#p13928539

Yeah, based on looking at Purple’s other game, they seem capable of giving more analysis based on their other game, so I think this is just new scum who is struggling to give anything.

[Flavor Leaf]

I like Purple best because the game I linked they did show they could analyze. Gamma was in there too, so interesting.

But Purplee has scum equity with Hu Tao, Dragon, Gamma, and Geraint. Like I can case it for all 4, so I think Purple, in addition to thinking they are individually scummy, can be partnered with a lot.

If it’s Geraint/Purple/HPE, I think either HPE saw it, or they didn’t see the crumb and happened to get lucky hitting a cop.

[Flavor Leaf]

Right now, I’m thinking Purple/Hu Tao.

[Flavor Leaf]

I agree, but they did give at least something that you could see have any sort of mindset and thought process.

And that was a super short game with way less to go off of.

[Flavor Leaf]

Not a good look for Dragon’s ‘meta read’ either.

[Flavor Leaf]

Meta reads are still able to be explained.

Now that I’m thinking about it, Hu Tao has explained their meta read on Dragon. (I have the counter to it, but they did explain why they are reading it that way) so could be Purple/Dragon.

Dragon has been pushing gut reads as meta, and they’re not explaining it, because it’s gut. Kyouko was a meta read, and why were they able to explain it with Kyouko and not Hu Tao or Purple?

[Flavor Leaf]

Dragon/Hu Tao feels too on the nose, but it’s possible. I think one of them are scum most of the time here, but i think one of them is just hard pocketed?

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t trust Purple as town either here, because we need to eliminate straggle votes. We’re getting to a situation where we need every town to eventually come together.

[Flavor Leaf]

I also don’t think it’s safe to tie yourself too much to Purple in case you need to cut the ties.

Dragon HAS defended them.

I’d argue Hu Tao is defending them indirectly by the tunnel on Geraint.

I think a Geraint Town flip is the worst possible scenario this game, and is one of the main reasons I don’t want Geraint today.

[Flavor Leaf]

Same

[Flavor Leaf]

Eh dragon has some scummy pushes too

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m just not okay having this game move forward with the possibility of me not in it in a gamestate where it benefits a dragon or Hu Tao scum member.

Finding that Purple scum by meta case has made me turn for that.

In addition, I keep coming back to HPE following Dragon, and it just kind of seems like HPE/Purple were following their scum leader Dragon a lot.

So I’m not comfortable going outside of Hu Tao/Dragon/Purple today.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, personally, I don’t see Gamma as scum here. And if my gut is that on Day 4, I’m gonna trust it.

If I’m wrong, good on Gamma.

[Flavor Leaf]

The CW wagon on Day 2 also indicates CW was discredited hard because they were the one closest on the money.

I whole heartedly believe the entire scum team to be in Purple, Dragon, Hu Tao, Geraint, and I won’t go Geraint today because of the possibility of them being town lets scum win easy tomorrow with the team being in the other 2

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Hu Tao

Now it’s E-2

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao read evolution is the worst of the gang, and if we aren’t going Purple, they’re the 2nd since they stop where i think scum’s at if they’re town or are scum themselves

[Flavor Leaf]

Maybe if ya vote Purple. I’m ready to move on

[Flavor Leaf]

Im never voting Pav or CW.

I think Purple is probably the best play today, and really the only possible one able to happen.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Purple

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s been 3 days since CW posted

[Flavor Leaf]

So I’m not comfortable going outside of Hu Tao/Dragon/Purple today.

With all respect Flavor, this PoE is town. And if I'm scum here I would be putting on a show of getting convinced about Hu Tao scum or Purple scum and voting them for an easy miselim and then complaining D5 that your reads suck.

So instead I am just going to ask you to choose someone else. My PoE is Pav/cw/Gamma ATM and I'm pretty sure you have cases all of them (or at least Pav and cw) as HPE partners before HPE even flipped.

Too many anti scum things for all 3 of them.

Pav is my never vote.

So frankly, no. I’m trusting my gut here, and i think you are wrong

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor pointed out earlier he didn't like her unvote of Kyo

I went back and that unvote looks pretty innocuous to me

Your wrong.

It’s bad even if it’s town considering Pav already unvoted.

[Flavor Leaf]

But i think they just slipped mind

[Flavor Leaf]

could you try reading me for me? I'm not certain you haven't erroneously cleared someone. I'm interested in working with you now since I've tried working with Flavor Leaf and it feels like that has been mostly unproductive.

What do you mean?

I feel like we’ve been working together well?

[Flavor Leaf]

That might be a suspicious comment then.

We’ve been lined up with our reads and pushes other than Purple I though

[Flavor Leaf]

But i think they just slipped mind

Meaning?

Like they might have missed Pav’s unvote.

Because either way, even if town that was a Garbo unvote after Pav had unvoted.

I also don’t like you going for literally my top town read when you have a POE of 3. Just kinda rude

[Flavor Leaf]

I already explained. I unvoted as I caught up in real time.

I already said i can see how you did that as town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor pointed out earlier he didn't like her unvote of Kyo

I went back and that unvote looks pretty innocuous to me

Your wrong.

It’s bad even if it’s town considering Pav already unvoted.

I read it as Hu Tao reading the request to unvote and unvoting, without checking if somebody else unvoted.

I mean, I literally did the same thing in resoonse to the unvote request.

And if you go back and look, I called you out for it too

[Flavor Leaf]

could you try reading me for me? I'm not certain you haven't erroneously cleared someone. I'm interested in working with you now since I've tried working with Flavor Leaf and it feels like that has been mostly unproductive.

What do you mean?

I feel like we’ve been working together well?

We’ve gotten along ig but this doesn’t feel like Cook’s Kitchen Sink where we were a well-oiled machine. There’s stuff getting in the way I think.

Damn, i thought we were smooth.

I even took you off the fade possibility with how much i was trusting you.

[Flavor Leaf]

The stuff getting in the way felt like scum interference

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s another reason I don’t think it’s Pav.

[Flavor Leaf]

I can’t fade with scum on my side? Yeah, no, there’s scum in Dragon/Hu Tao/Purple, and they’re actively trying to stop the conf town from being able to hit the scum in that.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’ve seen Creature Try hard as scum before too

[Flavor Leaf]

man just fucking vote me

What part of I want in those 3?

Who cares if it’s difficult to hit? This is end game, of course it is.

You wanna know how I can tell you and Pav are town?

It’s that energy here. It’s the “this game is hell purgatory” and it’s because you two are town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Fucking stop with this. I will almost push a policy for another discrediting eye roll.

Zero reason.

[Flavor Leaf]

man just fucking vote me

What part of I want in those 3?

Who cares if it’s difficult to hit? This is end game, of course it is.

You wanna know how I can tell you and Pav are town?

It’s that energy here. It’s the “this game is hell purgatory” and it’s because you two are town.

I thought you were accusing me of being scum and that being the source of the interference

No, it’s one of the three I’ve gotten.

This is like classic this period in a game, especially if I’m conf town.

Even though now my path and reads have mostly been proven to be right, I’m still getting pushed like I have no reads correct?

There’s scum in that trio.

It’s why they have shit reasons for town reading each other.

Gamma, Dragon’s been watching my games for a while now, they’re eager to play gambits as scum. I can feel it.

Creature is not the same type of player as Dragon.

And the Pav wagon is bad.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gamma saying you imply my shot wouldn’t go off

missed this, this was not my idea I had in mind. My idea was “that’s only last day if scum wins it”
Which I felt like was Hu Tao attempting to manifest a scum victory

Honestly, it’s Dragon and Hu Tao and that’s why this day phase is so stuck like this.

VOTE: Dragon

Go next and let me shoot and die.

[Flavor Leaf]

Pav has had so much anti scum things. He barely pushes, but he analyzes and says where his thoughts are.

HPE had the same progression off read on Pav that one had on Kyouko.

Dragon came into Day 3 trying to push a narrative like the Kyouko Day 2 wagon was bad, when we were clearly in a better spot.

HPE was following Dragon, and only gave reads when Dragon asked it.

Scum knew HPE were going down, and Dragon sat on it.

That’s huge actually, because HPE was my confirmed scum read after Kyouko, and someone I decided I’d shoot if Kyouko flipped town real early on.

HPE played around Dragon all day Day 2.

On Day 1, when HPE wagon gained steam, Dragon left it.

Dragon is absolutely super scum by VCA.

Everything except tone by Dragon is scummy imo. And even then, the words Dragon speaks are manipulate and scum sided, tone wise it’s just good.

I think that’s a dead giveaway.

[Flavor Leaf]

Game is Dragon and Purple, Dragon and Geraint, Hu Tao and Purple, or Purple and Geraint.

[Flavor Leaf]

Geraint gives least amount of info of those 4.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s how I got to my Dragon/Hu Tao/Purple POE.

[Flavor Leaf]

do it

Nah

I hate intentionally flipping town Day 1

That's Flavor's style

If he asks me to hammer I'll hammer though

Pedit: huh okay that was quick

Yes mr Flavor

VOTE: Lap

getting too close with flavor
trying to push laplacian without having to actually be responsible for town flip

Did somebody say E-1?

VOTE: Lap

needs no explanation

Kyouko just do me one favor

If Lap flips town don't start scumcasing me for TMI

This is stupid ridiculous

i dont think town says this tbh
everyone knows mishangs happen and if you vote someone in good faith you're expecting a scum flip (at least as much as you can)
to literally ten posts later start showing paranoia seems scummy

dragon is a sussy impostor who is not doing his tasks :c

I saw him kill in electrical and then vent away on cams

me being a pro

Imagine a vigilante in this game shooting anybody but CW

immediate push from flavor for me (start of day 2) out of the blue, I guarantee you flavor and DE got together in scumchat and DE said "cw's onto us for how we interacted and pushed mishang"

Can we policy elim cw? Or modkill?

dont be sus
time to roleclaim

i hardclaim 1-shot dayvig.

dayvig: cw537

we were so close to perfection

Could be a sign CW is scum and threat killed Abnegation.

pushing me for killing his own supposed scumread (if vig claim is legit)

VOTE: CW

votes me

Thought you were townreading CW?

Was.

We have 3 flips now.

2 of them I town read, but my bigger scum read in Abneg flipped town, so game flips a bit.

idk what to think of this

I’m half advocating to get rid of CW because even if they are town, I do not trust them in this game come late game.

And we have already seen Vig isn’t going to shoot there.

flavor thinks getting rid of me is advantageous even if town

3 scum players, 6 town left. I think this is simple, so no outliers allowed, so no hidden traitors.

Fun stuff.

If we fade town today, and vig hits town, and scum kill goes through, that’s game over

flavor also thinks we're in possible mylo
so he's alright eliming someone who he thinks is quite possibly town while he thinks we're in mylo
this seems like an attempt to close it all out rapidly

3 scum players, 6 town left. I think this is simple, so no outliers allowed, so no hidden traitors.

Fun stuff.

7 town, there's 10 alive.

Damn okay, we good then

he realizes we're not in mylo

I also was kinda using CW wagon as a bait.

Dunno what I got from it. Hu Tao’s response I liked more than the other 2, albeit, I get what they were saying too.

"it was a bait" lol
as soon as he realizes there'll be a d3 no matter what and then he'd catch heat for a mishang, he backs off with the most pathetic excuse imaginable

I think there's a strong case against all of DE/HPE/Flavor but flavor's is so glaringly obvious + this whole claiming situation

Get in here, if only to reiterate your Dragon push

[Flavor Leaf]

Tell you what

I am not saying I cannot change up my scum play, because I can, but I seriously don't think I play such a low level game as scum as just having my partner sheep me and ask them for reads or whatever

And I still think you are ignoring pretty solid but much subtler associations between Pav and HPE.

Just don’t think it’s Pav by the way the two of us interacted. Goes a lot deeper than that.

[Flavor Leaf]

And I’ve looked at the possibilities, and I see just as many anti association stuff.

Like the Pav/HPE vs Dragon/Hu Tao is classic scum on both sides.

[Flavor Leaf]

DE just has had a levels of TMI i don’t like too this game

[Flavor Leaf]

Like the way they played the game made me not trust them all game.

[Flavor Leaf]

I gotta check DE today. I need the flip.

Then, if I get blocked, yall in 4-2 worst case scenario, I can live with Dragon and I getting taken out of the game.

[Flavor Leaf]

Just so much that makes Dragon look like scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah back and forth back and forth

[Flavor Leaf]

Just so much that makes Dragon look like scum.

I thought we already had this convo and you agreed to extend faith to me

It's kinda discouraging because we had a coolmoment earlier and now you just forgot about it.

You started pushing my top town read

[Flavor Leaf]

Pav
Cw

Gamma
Geraint

Hu Tao
Purple
Dragon

[Flavor Leaf]

Dragon is trying to get me to reconsider while refusing to reconsider themselves.

I’d even argue I have reconsidered multiple times this day phase—they haven’t.

[Flavor Leaf]

And that’s the biggest issue really

[Flavor Leaf]

Just pot calling the kettle black

[Flavor Leaf]

Who do you want me to vote? My top TR???

^^^ this.

Zero empathy for it when it’s not their reads.

Pavowski/CW is my Hu Tao/Purple.

And after the game we’ve had, and the burned I’ve gotten recently from not trusting my gut, you trying to shade me for doing exactly what you’re doing is NOT a good look.

[Flavor Leaf]

There’s the difference.

But when you look at the content compared of Pav/CW and reasonings given for why they are town compared to reasons for Purple/Hu Tao, it’s just far inferior cases for Purple/Hu Tao.

And it’s being pushed I should blind faith when I don’t even trust you in the first place.

It’s a two way streak, you have some damn blind faith this game.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have correctly identified Lap town.

I correctly identified you as JK.

I correctly identified that if Kyouko was town, HPE was scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have correctly identified Lap town.

I correctly identified you as JK.

I correctly identified that if Kyouko was town, HPE was scum.

the last one, I did this on Day 2, where you were spouting Kyouko town and not pushing HPE.

[Flavor Leaf]

And it’s that blank walling by Dragon that I would like to condemn them to the dead thread.

[Flavor Leaf]

My compromise this day phase is Purple.

[Flavor Leaf]

And if you’re town that sure of your reads, make better cases for Hu Tao/Purple, because if you’re that certain, and if you are correct,

That is the wincon.

I need to be convinced for it to happen.

And I have specifically told you the reasons you have given me just aren’t good enough FOR ME to agree with them. That’s fine for how YOU got the read, now improve on it and make more town cases.

Because I have town cased Hu Tao more than you have.

This is like when Hu Tao needed my vote to get FireScum, and they weren’t being self aware enough to know that they weren’t gonna hit scum unless I got convinced, and even in that game, I had the 2nd scum dead to rights and new that if we went to another day on certain slots, it leads to a scum fade and dissolution the next days.

So i target slots that even if hit town, can lead to a gamestate where it works for most scenarios.

In a scenario where I am right that there’s scum in Hu Tao/Drag/Purple (and I believe this to be correct even if Pav ends up being scum, I can see a world where Pav is in that Firebringer slot) then I am setting a situation up where it protects from all angles.

I’ve been pretty good with reads lately except for when I go against my gut, so it’s not happening here without better reasons.

I even outright found meta reasons for Purple to be scum here, and by knowing you had incorrect meta on me at times, on top of already seeing meta as supplementary, meta ain’t doing it for me here.

[Flavor Leaf]

And your lack of empathy for the flip side when i am on the flip in your exact position, except I am conf town + I have tried to look at it from both ways and town cased both of the slots i push as town tremendously with reasons not even including with meta.

I’ll say again: I do not care about weak under 5 games meta.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have specifically found a meta reason to SCUM PUSH Purple here as well, so that very fact alone shows that I do not really believe your meta read there.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao Scum also needs Dragon alive here.

It’s not hard to case them. I see the reasons they could be town.

Dragon refuses to make any good cases and is strictly going on a trust basis when I have called out Hu Tao as scum, and faded Hu Tao, in every game they have been scum in against me minus one where they replaced in.

I have misfaded them ONCE. And it was the first time I ever played with them, I believe. (If i even misfaded them there).

[Flavor Leaf]

So if you really wanna talk, i trust my own meta Hu Tao read more than you in the long run.

And I can see this as either, might be lean town even at some points. But in that scenario, PURPLE IS NOT TOWN.

[Flavor Leaf]

The scum in Hu Tao/Dragon, if there is, needs the other alive. It’s the safest way to victory.

[Flavor Leaf]

DragonEater70 (2) - cw357, Flavor Leaf
Pavowski (2) - Hu Tao, DragonEater70
Hu Tao (1) - Pavowski
Purplemango (1) - geraintm

The fact that the 3 on my POE are so split up shows that that is where the town are at. Because they don’t know.

Pavowski has made so many anti-scum moves this entire game.

There is scum on Pavowski 9 out of 10 times this game

[Flavor Leaf]

For the CW replacement.

This is when CW was calling DE/Hu Tao as scum but was getting discredited all around as a VI basically.

Spoiler:

Votecount 2.2

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 votes to eliminate. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2024-01-02 19:46:41).

Votecount

cw357 (4)

- DragonEater70, cw357, HighPrincessErinys, Hu Tao

geraintm (1)

- Joyboy

Not Voting (5)

- Flavor Leaf, geraintm, Pavowski, Purplemango, ssbm_Kyouko

Flavour

Votecount 2.3

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 votes to eliminate. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2024-01-02 19:46:41).

Votecount

cw357 (3)

- cw357, HighPrincessErinys, Hu Tao

geraintm (1)

- Joyboy

Pavowski (1)

- ssbm_Kyouko

ssbm_Kyouko (2)

- Flavor Leaf, DragonEater70

Not Voting (4)

- geraintm, Pavowski, Purplemango

Flavour

Mod notes

I've been pretty busy this holiday season, and that's likely to continue until after New Year's Day. tris, everyone's favourite backup mod, will be stepping in to help me out. I'll put a combined link to our ISOs in the opening post of the game thread.

[Flavor Leaf]

Keep in mind, I was also hard pushing to basically policy CW right before that.

[Flavor Leaf]

Maybe in the second point, not the first point.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m hoping a Titus or a Drew comes into the CW slot and I can talk with them, because I’m pretty confident with that slot being town

[Flavor Leaf]

Someone who can confirm our VCA

[Flavor Leaf]

We have time, let’s wait it out for the replacement

[Flavor Leaf]

Then you aren't reading the game, cuz I've had cases for Hu tao all game.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Hu Tao

Gonna sit here.

[Flavor Leaf]

ive simply made up my mind with Pav/Gamma/CW frankly. Took too long and was too hard getting reasons other than meta for Purple/Hu Tao that I just don't even care if you make them right now.

We're not gonna see eye to eye, I'm just gonna fight and group with my town reads.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have correctly identified HPE as scum Day 1

eh, but you moved off as soon as they gained momentum. thats a scum case on you.

[Flavor Leaf]

well you know i have no agenda, and that i was shooting at scum the day you protected a scum from dying

[Flavor Leaf]

night

[Flavor Leaf]

End of the day, idk how you think you’re doing a good job to try and convince me that Pav is scum

[Flavor Leaf]

If anything I’m moving further and further away from it

[Flavor Leaf]

Eh, unless I misfade her, my accuracy in catching scum her is very high.

[Flavor Leaf]

You can always jail to stop a kill tonight if we misfade in where you think the remaining scum are. You know i won’t be vigging there, so best way to confirm your read is correct is to flip em, and convince me, then we get to vig/jail knowing you were correct.

[Flavor Leaf]

I agree with your Purple meta from what I’ve seen in a town game of theirs.

That being said, I don’t believe they’ve shown that here.

[Flavor Leaf]

If anything I’m moving further and further away from it

Next time try not to be so caught up in your views and be willing to compromise

I was.

Purple was my compromise wagon.

[Flavor Leaf]

And you gave like zero reasonings, so if you want else where make the reasons

[Flavor Leaf]

Welcome Nurse, have you caught up on the game?

Uh

I wanna UNVOTE: for a mo here

This does not happen from a SCUM PAV.

Y’all talk about me needing to compromise?!?

YALL need to compromise.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gera/purple/your slot have been lurky,

yeah, i have been. but i've got so little to go on i am just going by gut.

So you’re sheeping the person who’s been voting you the entire day. Noted.

[Flavor Leaf]

Geraint might be my compromise after that bad vote.

[Flavor Leaf]

Okay so a 3/3 split

If Hu Tao flips scum we lock town Pav and if she flips town we lockscum Pav

Maybe

I am not actually good at VCA

Could still be Geraint/Purple.

And I think RN/Geraint is still more likely than Pav.

I don’t see it ever being Pav personally.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have a confirmed kill this time, RN. Don’t worry.

I spent first day and a half okay policy’ing your slot before town reading them and thinking they had a correct solve.

There was a Day 2 wagon on you that almost lead to your slot dying, lead by Dragon, Hu Tao, and HPE. HPE has flipped scum.

Dragon jailed me twice in a row after, and prevented me from shooting scum. The 2nd no kill night didn’t effect scum’s chances of having another day, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

I see we're on Day 4. Any IMPORTANT highlights I should know?

VOTE: Hu Tao

Flavor is conftown vig, Gera/purple/your slot have been lurky, Dragon is a claimed JK, the rest of us are claimed vanilla

...

What Day did Flavor claim Vig? How was he confTowned?

I don't care how my prior slot behaved given what

I

know.

What Day did Dragon claim JK?

It actually does matter because we have been labeling the group as lurk group.

But it’s really not an alignment thing, and I’ve been hard protecting your slot for a while as is.

[Flavor Leaf]

Is hammering Hu Tao here not a scum claim?

Anyway I'm jailing Flavor and would appreciate if he shot in my PoE.

Is that a slip?

TELL ME that's not a

slip

, Dragon.

Night 1 Dragon said they got blocked because something went through, forget what it was, and they’ve been jailing me ever since.

So from Dragon’s POV, they’re saying a roleblocker is confirmed.

Also, since I have a confirmed vig kill, and Dragon has jailed me two nights in a row and no kill, this implies if Dragon is town, scum shot me two nights in a row.