Mini 2293: Death Note. Postgame!

[Black]

Do the Kira followers who who each other are?

Kira's followers only know who Kira is

0utside of Kira knowing who Kira is

These are the type of posts we need to get this to page 60

These too. And the one I'm posting now

[Black]

pagetop?

[Black]

VOTE: kawaii

okay flip this with me? maybe? im gonna die vt man

I think kawaii has been incredibly towny in these pages so it can't be him, right?

I agree with his read on black and vander being townies

Flipping someone you are convinced is town is... a strategy

[Black]

@Gimli

Why did you call for v/la yesterday in the middle of getting called scum only to continue to post your normal amount? I'm not asking this to be like "oh you're def scum" but I'm wondering what that was about

[Black]

@Gimli

Why did you call for v/la yesterday in the middle of getting called scum only to continue to post your normal amount? I'm not asking this to be like "oh you're def scum" but I'm wondering what that was about

I need a break from playing but this fucking gameday won't end

I have my thesis to write I thought I'd get to do it but games' too involving

tried putting v/la and walking out of them a bit but guess i can't

and yeah i dont wanna talk rl but just bc you asked

Ok that's fair

[Black]

what have you pushed that wasn't easy af low hanging fruit this game?

Would you mind answering this about yourself?

[Black]

HPE what is your read on Meg?

[Black]

Without ISOing her first can you tell me why she feels townie?

[Black]

what have you pushed that wasn't easy af low hanging fruit this game?

Would you mind answering this about yourself?

I'm not engaging with you this gameday anymore for the sake of the thread. you think I'm a wolf and that everything I do is wolf, and that's okay. we talk tomorrow or I flip today.

I'll take that as a "no one"

[Black]

Without ISOing her first can you tell me why she feels townie?

Gonna be real with you it's just kinda vibes and also their opening post which as Gimli pointed out is very likely not a post that Kira would make imo. This should come as exactly why this one needs to go and do a proper ISO to get more than "uhh... feels town "

Thanks for the honesty and answering my question! +town

[Black]

The reason this game this game is the way it is, is because people aren't treating it like a normal maf game, but keep looking for kira tells instead of scum tells.

THANK YOU!!

Kira tells are also Detective tells. This is why Gimli is speedrunning to lose the game whether he's town or wolf

[Black]

EBWOP: only speedrunning to lose if he's town. If he's wolf he's trying to out the detective D1

[Black]

I feel like no elim would be not good. We are basically giving Kira an extra day

Then we eliminate Kira/follower, who do you feel is scum?

Didn't you literally just ask him this??

[Black]

If you are asking questions and not processing the answers that's performative af

[Black]

EBWOP: ehhh I guess you just asked if 3 people in particular are scum. Sorry kawaii I misread

[Black]

EBWOP: ehhh I guess you just asked if 3 people in particular are scum. Sorry kawaii I misread

You good, when I asked about the 3 Koki had no idea, wanted to see if Koki's mind changed

In an hour and a half? XD

[Black]

Well except for you. You're just kinda standing there

[Black]

STD has been hard defending Mala for basically the entire game.

Don't you have a tr on StD?

[Black]

Yeah, but what you're saying isn't true.
Also, I could be wrong on STD, and there are other people who could be followers to Mala.

I'm saying it's odd for you to put even more pressure on mala when you tr someone that has been defending her all game. I wonder what other role combination that could apply to?

[Black]

Vander/Gimli actively throwing the game

Does anyone counter this claim from mala?

[Black]

Mala: "I'm one of the PRs"

Vander: "ehhh even though someone could counterclaim...you should still die"

[Black]

This isn't normal mafia where a PR claim could go either way. If someone claims PR here in this setup you unvote them 10 times out of 10. Any other course of action is detrimental to the town and I'm having a hard time believing Vander has the town's best interest in mind

[Black]

I think Gimli has been scummier but I'm down to vote Vander today. I'm having a hard time believing town!Vander would be this careless about a PR claim when we're in a setup like this. And I know for a fact he's aware of the implications of pushing a claimed PR in this setup but he did it anyway

[Black]

VOTE: Vander

[Black]

I think Gimli has been scummier but I'm down to vote Vander today. I'm having a hard time believing town!Vander would be this careless about a PR claim when we're in a setup like this. And I know for a fact he's aware of the implications of pushing a claimed PR in this setup but he did it anyway

We should wait till everyone at least talks in the thread after kitty's claim. Just to see if anyone ccs, before we go voting

Well yes I agree. I don't want to rush to lim Vander or Gimli but I feel comfortable parking my vote barring a cc

[Black]

You're all doing very poorly rn imo

Same to you lol

[Black]

100%? Nah your math is wrong and I think you're just playing really bad rn

Assistant is the easiest thing to cc. Someone is more than welcome to do so and then we just vote mala out here

[Black]

Yeah and the real Assistant will speak up if she's lying

So anyway

[Black]

Unvotes until a CC would be the towny thing to do here

[Black]

Not scum tunnel onto the claimed PR. Like what?

[Black]

Mala why didn't you claim Detective if you wanted to keep your Detective safe?

If mala fake claimed detective we would make her use the vig which she wouldn't be able to do. Then she just dies

[Black]

Gimli follower Vander Kira makes sense to me. Gimli has been hard defending Vander the entire game

[Black]

Yeah Gimli doesn't think I could be the detective so he has no reason to push me. You Lorne and mala though? All possible detective candidates

[Black]

but I'm not flipping vander with y'all.

We can go you instead?

[Black]

I wish you could stop being so obsessed with this scumread but its okay you're just playing mafia

I think you're scum but if you are town you are throwing the game. So I'm down to yeet you

[Black]

"Obsessed" with the scumread? Nah, you're just not playing like a townie at all imo. Maybe do some townie stuff? Start by unvoting the uncountered PR?

[Black]

I've never seen someone get so defensive over being tunneled on. Like legit everytime I post something about you being scum you just call me bad? And you think I'm exhausting?

[Black]

Black it's just ATE Gimli's trying anything he can to get out of it because he's scum

I can't tell if you legit think this or if you are just making fun of my reads

[Black]

but yes it's draining to deal with black.

The feeling is mutual. You almost make me not want to even pursue my read because you're just going to call me bad for it. That's not how mafia should go

[Black]

Oh...

[Black]

lets kill that slot

I'm down

[Black]

lets kill that slot

Sigma
Hate to kill a replacing slot but it's the best option we have

What? Why is it the best option we have??

[Black]

I know I said I'm down but this is a chance to get actual contribution out if this slot. I don't think we lim Lorne here

Gimli, I'll provide two scenarios here to make you happy ok?

1. If you're town I can see you wanting Lorne slot gone because he's in your lim pool and he's obviously a PoS

2. If you're scum this looks like you distancing from the Gimli/Vander accusations

Disclaimer that I don't know which is true and please do not call me bad for considering this

[Black]

lets kill that slot

Sigma
Hate to kill a replacing slot but it's the best option we have

What? Why is it the best option we have??

Who else is town going to eliminate?

Probably not the slot that hasn't done anything all game when we finally get a chance at a fresh opinion from them

Do you even scumread Lorne? Why would you want to vote this slot over people you scumread?

[Black]

i don't think i want to lim lorne slot today

this is crumbing that lorne is the detective

im gonna say it before everyone pretends bullshit

What are you even saying dude lol

Are you trying to tell your Kira who to NK?

[Black]

he played associatively both with std and with malakittens

He played associatively with the claimed Assistant so he's probably scum instead of Detective? What?

[Black]

@gimli

Where would you like to vote if no one cc's mala?

[Black]

I can get on board with that. I also think thats a very townie thing for you to say

[Black]

telling black that he is tiring me.

she*

[Black]

telling black that he is tiring me.

she*

my apologies, for some reason I never saw your pronouns before

no worries. I just added them so you're good <3

[Black]

noone is gonna cc me you scumbutt.

I like you

[Black]

I will vote wherever mala tells me too but I agree we should wait with the very low chance of a cc from Vander and n_m

[Black]

Counterpoint: Vander is Kira

[Black]

Gimli can you point out reasons why Vander can't be Kira? You keep saying he's towny af but like...wouldn't Kira be on their best town behavior here?

[Black]

Yeah but looking townie is something Kira is probably doing really well if they are playing their role right. And his activity definitely matches how both you and I would expect Kira to play. So I'm just wondering why he's been ruled out as absolutely definitely no way Kira to you

[Black]

Why does Vander TR two of mala's posts and then say he doesn't understand the mala TR from StD? These were the only two posts Vander made about mala before questioning StD's read. If you look back on this interaction it really feels like Vander is trying to get something out of StD here

*snip*

Leaning town on this response

*snip*

I liked this post too.

you do have a good point. i just think the way she's handled herself has been town. she could be bad, i'd probably need more info to change my mind though

What specifically about the way she's handled herself?
Because you said she might be low hanging fruit, but why couldn't she just be accurate scummy fruit?

I liked your thoughts on black being Kira, although I don't particularly agree with them,

but I still don't get the Mala read

.

[Black]

Also, if you read Vander's ISO, he has tunneled on Kawaii the entire day. He still hasn't stopped SRing Kawaii. The only time he even remotely came out of this tunnel was to push mala who was breadcrumbing PR. This seems like something Kira might do

[Black]

I don't think Vander's ISO is anywhere close to being out of the realm of Kira trying to act as towny as possible

In fact I bet if mala decides to lim Vander today we probably just win the game

[Black]

Vander has been towny throughout, but his reaction to mala was terrible

His "towny" isn't anything he wouldn't be able to replicate as Kira. If I'm wrong you're more than welcome to point out posts that say "man this is def not Kira"

[Black]

We vote who mala decides we vote

[Black]

I guess I'm presenting my case to her

[Black]

holy fuck
i made the wrong decision to try this new england clam chowder
i feel like i ate raw onion

I put onions in my air fryer last night to go with my pasta and my house still smells like onions

And yeah I put onions in an air fryer so what? I was too lazy to tin foil a pan and bake them

[Black]

f i had a choice between gimli and vander

You don't have to choose between these two but I think you probably should. Do you have any other scumreads atm?

[Black]

f i had a choice between gimli and vander

You don't have to choose between these two but I think you probably should. Do you have any other scumreads atm?

I have one that I'm keeping close to my chest rn.

I already said: I'm choosing Vander as Kira and gimli is his follower.

gimli is NOT kira.

I agree with everything you are saying

[Black]

Boom! See ya Vander!

[Black]

Gimli is Kira btw

Since we were both wrong, let's change the topic.

Let's all play a game. Which person do you think is most likely NOT to be Kira as of right now and why?

Gimli.

But I would vote Gimli over Black if that were somehow the decision because I think Black is about 0% to be a follower.

[Black]

If you look at Vander/Gimli interactions this game you will see how weird it is. It's not Vander pocketing a townie weird...Vander has been trying to signal to Gimli all game that he is Gimli's follower

And Gimli got the signal because he has been unquestionably townreading Vander

I'll try to show examples later but I'm busy on the weekends. If you are town here you should definitely look yourselves

[Black]

There's no way we should tunnel on you here Gimli. We look at all options even if you are the main suspect. If Vander isn't Kira then we can't make any mistakes tomorrow

[Black]

I find it pretty funny that you have called out multiple people for playing bad, awful, etc and your main townread is scum

[Black]

There’s no way that Kira!Vander would claim knowing it’s a death wish

I really doubt the game is gonna end here

That's what I'm thinking too. The question will be is Vander's Kira someone he townread or someone he avoided?

[Black]

No more AtE please. You're fine Gimli we all say mean stuff sometimes

[Black]

PIKACHUUUUUUUU

[Black]

KOKICHIIIIII

[Black]

Then its time to send another PM to the mods.

Why do you not want to talk about this?

[Black]

HPE/Vander followers with Kokichi Kira?

I have so many interactions to look at later

[Black]

Can someone who is better than me at mafia tell me if any of these are weird like I'm thinking they are?

I thought kokichi might have been scum for the vote on black for the call for skill claims, but his response to me asking about it felt null

starting to have doubts on kokichi

gimli, why malakittens?

Thoughts on kokichi?

Okay it's independent of me. Then okay. And I don't think we're going to vote out Kawaii today anyway, so no point.

I'm actually just going to look through iso's and stop trying to defend myself cause my back and forth with you is distracting me too much.

I am extremely down to daykill Kawaii.

I don't like the fact that Kawaii has never responded to me calling out that post I thought was scummy, or asked me about my vote.

UNVOTE: wanna think about it some more

if koki is scum, that's exactly the type of manipulation tactics I expect him to use and make people feel insecure and lots of other bad things. he has no reason to bring up past games w/ you just to complain about your reads in that game.

he is also doing that w/ me, saying I'm only scumreading him because I'm scared of being fooled. it's simply undermining our leans with things that are not this game. in this game, kokichi is scummy, and doing these things fits with his scum range. I expect town koki to try and talk on the level of where the conversations are instead of doing this.

it's not because of the trash he's spewing it's actually more about your comment about everyone scumreading him. Does kira/follower come in and specifically antagonize people with garbage? is it just kokichi being weird? am i overthinking this?

I do think the way kokichi is playing is probably less likely to come from Kira from the complete disregard of not making waves.

The game will not end if Kawaii is elim'd, I'm pretty sure.

Why?

I was potentially moving to Mala/kokichi/std today until that post, there's just no way

[Black]

Vander, in the small chance you're town... who's Kira? Could you go through the list and give thoughts?

[Black]

Wait, mala...

Try it in the correct format

From the Detective role PM in the setup:

"

Condemn

. Once, you can write "I Condemn You,

PLAYER

" in main thread,

while instead of PLAYER you need to put nickname of player you accuse."

Your two attempts to test your ability didn't fit this exactly:

Condemn: Vander aka Vanderscamp (L Lawliet)

I condemn YOU, Vander

[Black]

It should read: "I Condemn You, L Lawliet"

[Black]

Or if you really think Kokichi is Kira just take him out instead. I think guaranteed scum might be better though

[Black]

Uhh sorry, I guess your gut is HPE Kira. I missed that post

Either way let's test this claim in the right format

[Black]

After looking at Vander/HPE interactions...it could definitely be HPE Kira here. Vander actually avoided the slot for 95% of the game. The couple of interactions they have seem forced on Vander's end (312, 407, 778, 1751). Outside of these direct quotes to HPE, Vander hasn't mentioned HPE at all and has dropped a total of

zero

reads on HPE this game

In this reads list in #1419 (shown below) Vander lists off thoughts on everyone but HPE and Meg...

I kind of just want the day to end at this point, I feel like I'm just tunneling my reads harder and harder.

I still think

Gimli

is a pretty terrible lim, I think the way he's played is the kind of inconsistency that comes more often from passionate town than scum with an agenda.

I still don't think

Kawaii

is town, but I think other people sound scummy and I'm happy to entertain the possibility that I'm just really tunneled.


I didn't like

Mala's

reaction to Gimli at all, I feel like when someone calls you out as a TPR people react in several different ways. I think the towny way to react, regardless of whether you'reTPR or not, is to kind of play into it, like giving a wink emoji or joking about your vig target or something.
I think Mala's reaction was pretty scummy, like Mala seemed really annoyed in a really obviously "I'm a TPR" type way. I get that this may seem unhelpful to talk about, but it was imo so blatant that there's no chance anyone missed it, so I'm just going to talk about it. I basically feel like if you are what you're softing it doesn't make sense because you would not want to actually react in that way, and it didn't feel at all like a VT trying to take a bullet, so I think it was just scummy.

I thought

STD's

reaction to Gimli a few pages ago was pretty good, I got the vibe from it that they actually believed what they were saying and weren't defending themselves just for the sake of defending themselves.

I really, really, really don't like

kokichi's

continual defence of "I literally can't be Kira" because it relies on the premise that followers would have just hard defended them facing an early D1, and the fact that no one did is clearing.
I don't really think this is something kokichi actually believes so it just reads as false.

Other than that, my non updated reads are that I think

black

and

lorne

are town and

everyone else is null

.

Everyone else is HPE and Meg

[Black]

HPE's iso doesn't really feel all that great. It feels like it is posturing for a Gimli mislim tomorrow after the vig shot kills a follower and doesn't end the game

It has PM'ed the mod multiple times to end the day (1703) which I think Kira would absolutely do here to stop any additional conversation

1769 feels a little defensive after accused of being Kira, and also anxious that the mod won't end the Day

1780 feels like HPE is trying to convince StD that mala could be lying while also saying Vander picked the wrong person to CC

[Black]

@mala - would it be better to try your vig shot against your Kira suspect instead of Vander? You would be confirmed Detective, Vander would be confirmed scum, and your main Kira suspect would be dead

The upside is it gives us your vig shot and tomorrow's lim to catch Kira. If we assume Vander is a follower then shooting him only gives us one chance to kill Kira (tomorrow's lim)

The downside I guess is what if Vander is somehow Kira? If this is the case then we don't lim him tomorrow because we think he's follower and he wins the game. I just don't see a world where Kira fake CCs here. It would have to be a follower

I think you should consider this and do what you think is best

[Black]

I think it's probably HPE

Let's take our time with this one yeah?

[Black]

Well today is the last Day so I don't see any reason withholding this info

I'm the real Assistant

Kinda would've been better if it was someone who was suspected of being Kira but here we are

[Black]

sigh

hey did you receive any action today black? I targeted you with my ability now so I guess it went through and you know my name

Nothing yet. I'll confirm once I get the PM

[Black]

Also I agree it can't be kawaii. No shot Vander pushes Kira so hard D1

Who sent the message? Whoever did should probably out themselves imo

[Black]

Who sent the message? Whoever did should probably out themselves imo

HPE did
I targeted HPE with competency test
HPE has public announcement

I think you should have waited to see if HPE lied about this

Also it feels like HPE wrote the message in a different way than he normally writes his posts. Maybe trying to throw us off? I bet his plan was to never admit to writing the message

[Black]

I outlined it in 1788 but HPE is the slot Vander ignored the most this game

[Black]

And now HPE spent all this time writing up the Gimli accusation overnight? He's in survival mode

[Black]

If you look at HPE's actions toward the end of the Day yesterday, he was posturing himself to push Gimli today. I bet he wrote the message and was planning on agreeing with it. Kawaii could have caught him red handed if he had just waited for him to lie

[Black]

Vanderscamp's odds of being a Follower are extremely high as I greatly doubt he would've counterclaimed Assistant like that as a Taskforce Member, and he physically could not be the actual Assistant as he would have known it was the Detective making the claim.

This part of HPE's message is so weird to me. Vander is a confirmed follower after mala's vig shot. HPE is writing this as if there is still doubt

[Black]

Vote: HPE

That's e-4

@HPE: why didn't you write your note in third person?

[Black]

Would the Followers openly townread Kira, or largely not interact with them?

I think they would townread them Kira if Kira was under pressure. You were never under pressure. Therefore it makes more sense for them to ignore you. Less associatives this way

[Black]

Your Vanderscamp follower case is admittedly sound, but you should really try looking for a second follower, too.

Ehhh. What good does finding a second follower here do? The second follower will be whoever votes for Gimli here instead of you imo

[Black]

Because this one thought that anonymity would help a bit with people reading with a bias to disbelieve me if they were Kirareading me or whatever. This is kind of evidently what is happening when you openly suggest that I did it to try and silently prop myself up for today.

I'm not buying this. Anonymity? So you were planning on keeping it a secret that you wrote the message? That's a Kira move btw

[Black]

Are you just trying to funnel people into me without any room for weighing the options? What happened to taking our time with this?

Def not. I just think it's definitely you. But obviously we should take our time and consider other options

[Black]

Maybe it's not HPE. Why are you both only focused on them? It would be purrfect if it was, but it's possible it's not.

Until you give me a more likely Kira option I think I'll question HPE. I mean it is here after all...no one else is

[Black]

I don't think I'm going to vote HPE. One will look elsewhere.

Oh here's the other follower lol

[Black]

Until you give me a more likely Kira option I think I'll question HPE. I mean it is here after all...no one else is

Why not Gimli?

It could be Gimli. That's my #2 suspect. I just think Vander saying at the beginning of the game that Gimli is the least likely to be Kira seems too much of a bold and risky move. He didn't have to say that at all

[Black]

IMO Vander was playing super safe and careful. To me that tells me his Kira is someone he ignored and avoided the most. That's HPE

[Black]

Again with "Anyone who dares to not immediately go for HPE's throat is their Follower"... You are in a complete killspiral on me and are taking every reason and excuse you can find to throw mud onto my name because of it. Rather than see Kira and Kira only in everything it does however, you should try and regard this one as what it simply is. If you still find Kira then, so be it. But otherwise, consider the flipside of every coin you look at, for both me and Gimli, yea?

You killed my Detective

You will die

[Black]

IMO Vander was playing super safe and careful.

He was?

Do you disagree? He was on his best town behavior imo and everyone widely TR him for it. This strikes me as someone who is not going to leave a trail of crumbs to his Kira if he is ever investigated

[Black]

The irony. Now you are the one who everyone wants out

I mean it's just 2 people so far

[Black]

Black, what if Gimli is tricking you? How can you be so pawsitive that it's not Kira's mind games working on you?

I'm not that positive. I'm not very good at this game so I'm going on what I feel. My detective thought it was HPE and I think she's right

[Black]

Counter question Kokichi - how can you be so sure it's not HPE?

[Black]

Do you feel Vander accusing HPE of being a follower in 407 + 408 was a part of this strategy?

407 & 408 is a clear scumread on HPE, but later Vander did his reads list in 1419 and conveniently left HPE out. Saying HPE was showing follwer signs in 407/408 and then not going anywhere with it and completely forgetting about it makes me feel like this was an empty forced read

[Black]

it could also be an attempt at distancing, the follower not trying to alert HPE that they're a follower, but trying to separate themselves and make it look like, in the event they got caught, that HPE wasn't kira.

This is how I feel. If we think Vander was signaling to his Kira all game then Kira is Gimli. If we think Vander tried to avoid his Kira all game then it's HPE

[Black]

Your detective also wanted Gimli.

mala thought HPE was Kira

[Black]

mala didn't think Gimli could be Kira at all

[Black]

I feel Vand may have let off HPE too easily since he pursued everyone else but it's hard to say he didn't back off HPE with logic alone

I mean can you really even say Vander backed off of HPE when he wasn't really on HPE to begin with? This follower comment is the only read he

ever

gave of HPE and he went nowhere with it

[Black]

with HPE hoping the anonymous note would stir the pot and push us towards gimli.

Everyone seems to be overlooking this. HPE even said it tried to remain anonymous on the note. That means it was not planning on telling us it wrote it. It was going to blindly agree with the note all along and push Gimli, but kawaii ruined that plan

[Black]

1. HPE writes note about Gimli being Kira
2. HPE changes the way it writes about itself so people don't know it came from it
3. HPE agrees with the note and uses it to help push Gimli

Except 3 didn't happen and I think if Kawaii had waited to out HPE's note then we would have just caught him lying today

[Black]

It* lying, apologies

[Black]

does it look to anyone else like koki is trying to draw the elimination to himself? by daring us a whole lot like this

Koki seems like he is trying to steer people away from HPE

[Black]

Idk it sure feels like you are trying to subtly convince us it's not HPE and to look elsewhere

Maybe it's not HPE. Why are you both only focused on them? It would be purrfect if it was, but it's possible it's not.

I don't think I'm going to vote HPE. One will look elsewhere.

Until you give me a more likely Kira option I think I'll question HPE. I mean it is here after all...no one else is

Why not Gimli?

Black, what if Gimli is tricking you? How can you be so pawsitive that it's not Kira's mind games working on you?

Black, what if Gimli is tricking you? How can you be so pawsitive that it's not Kira's mind games working on you?

I'm not that positive. I'm not very good at this game so I'm going on what I feel. My detective thought it was HPE and I think she's right

Your detective also wanted Gimli.



BUT, you need to be more confident in yourself! We are so fur-tunate to have you as Kitty's assistant

Yes we have to keep the Pawsibility that Kitty was wrong about their reads.

[Black]

I don't even think that's a shallow read tbh

[Black]

You also kind of seem to be overestimating knowing who wrote the announcement and what their intention was VS. the contents of the announcement and the conclusions you draw for yourself from that. Me

or

Gimli is very realistically possible and even on a caught 'lie' the announcement is a real Kiracase against him. Would being caught 'lying' really change that? No, it just gives you the tinted glasses of "Well this was definitely malicious!" and then bam you're blind to the color red all along the ISOs it pointed out.

I see much more incentive for Kira!HPE to write this note and lie about writing it than I do for town!Kira

[Black]

Fwiw I still think Gimli is acting scummy lol

[Black]

Vander doesn't think HPE is towny?

Wait this is actually a good catch. Here he implies that he thinks HPE is scummy but later he leaves HPE off his list and says "everyone else is null"

Why would Vander not include HPE on his reads list as scummy if he scumread HPE?

Answer: HPE is Kira

[Black]

Kawaii has a point here. Vander's 1094 implying that HPE is scummy, then his 1419 in which leaves HPE off his reads (saying those he left off are null) is pretty telling

Fixed tag.
~Enchant

[Black]

GOD you are tunneled.

Why would Vander scumread you two times and then mark you as null in his reads list?

[Black]

hmm, I'm not so sure its a good idea for kira!hpe to limit its shot so much by doing a superpush on me

HPE has been posturing to push you since yesterday btw. It's the only wincon for Kira here...mislim the scummiest townie. The overnight note trying to appear anonymous was meant to be a springboard for it but kawaii ruined that

[Black]

this can easily come from a follower

die or kill, make it a 1v1, win either way

Hmm. Ok, for some reason I didn't think about this but you're right

[Black]

All this points to is HPE being Kira by association if Vander is a Follower (I'm assuming he is)

Vander is confirmed follower at this point. A townie doesn't fake CC the Assistant

[Black]

HPE, who are your Kira candidates other than Gimli?

[Black]

and you're defending std which you probably have no reason to as kira

I disagree. You are the easiest mislim today, not StD. Kira could townread someone they know is town to keep the list focused on you

[Black]

The only actually viable candidate is me. It is either this one or Gimli, even it can see that.

Really? You don't think it could be Meg? No_Mafia?

[Black]

HPE isn't behaving like kira at all, lets be honest

Ehhhhhhhh idk man. Now I'm wondering if it's Kira HPE with Vander/Gimli followers...

[Black]

hpe just said its literally either me or it. don't you find that incredibly strange?

Yes I do

[Black]

hpe is trying to limbat so hard here black, that's my impression anyway.

Gimli is very blatantly and openly trying to do anything he can to confuse town and get them off him, how can you not see this?

Yeah idk what to think anymore

[Black]

Maybe Gimli is HPE's follower too? Light skim and there are already some weird interactions in Gimli's ISO

if i'm detective or assistant then I still want props from getting the rest of it right:

1. Detective - mala
2. Assistant - STD
3. Taskforce Member - vander
4. Taskforce Member - meg
5. Taskforce Member - gimli
6. Taskforce Member - lorne
7. Taskforce Member - HPE
8. Kira Follower - black
9. Kira Follower - kokichi
10. Kira - kawaii

I strongly believe black is not a follower, I think the initial post about not understanding what followers know was genuine.

ur probably right

im mad at myself for not putting HPE there instead of black

Before this post Gimli had HPE in his townlock. Nothing indicated he had a follower or a scumread on HPE at all, and then this post happened

[Black]

YOU ARE OVERTHINKING THIS SO BADLY

That's kinda my thing

[Black]

I'm open to hear a StD case and I admit it's probably not smart to think it could only be HPE/Gimli. If we consider StD then we have to consider Meg imo

I'm the only one it can't be and Kawaii is about as close to cleared as you can be without actually being cleared

[Black]

POSSIBLY KIRA

1. Gimli (Teru Mikami)
2. Kokichi Oma (Thierry Morrello)
3. HighPrincessErinys (Shuichi Aizawa)
4. Save The Dragons (Raye Penber)
5. MegAzumarill (Quillsh Wammy)
6. Not_Mafia (Mihael Keehl)

NOT KIRA

1. Black (Misa Amane)
2. KawaiiKame (Hideki Ide)

[Black]

UNVOTE: HPE

I still think it might be Kira but maybe I'm jumping the gun a little. I'm still pretty upset with the way mala got ran up yesterday and I feel like this whole situation could have been avoided

I'm going to try to look through some stuff to find anything that can help here. I'm looking forward to hearing from Meg and N_M as well

[Black]

Gimli could be galaxy braining me but why does Kira!Gimli not just push HPE here? Continuing to solve beyond the obvious Kira suspect at this stage of the game seems ridiculously townie to me but also that could be exactly why Gimli is doing it. I'm getting town vibes from this StD thing. It's actually making me rethink the game a little

[Black]

i have done nothing like that here. im crafty and calculating as scum and here i've just been going with the flow. im not helping produce thread apathy or anything like that.

The stakes are much bigger as Kira here so you would have every reason to adjust your meta I think

[Black]

@HPE - you answered Gimli's question. You were supposed to answer why it's only you/Gimli here as possible Kira options

[Black]

@HPE - you answered Gimli's question. You were supposed to answer why it's only you/Gimli here as possible Kira options

It's a process of elimination either way, you should realize.

You should realize you have conveniently left out StD in your PoE. If he does end up being your Kira then you probably shouldn't have done that

[Black]

Fwiw I still think Gimli is acting scummy lol

Yet I'm scummy for thinking so.

I don't really think you're a follower anymore ig

What do you think about StD?

[Black]

This one already talked about how Vander has absolutely no realistic chance of being Follower to StD though...

ahh you're right, I apologize

[Black]

and by the end during twilight just openly saying that he thinks StD is a Follower to a lying Kira!Mala

Now this is the type of distancing play I would expect from Vander. I don't think this clears StD at all

[Black]

I can't believe I'm saying this but I think Gimli could be right here

I still think we take all the time in the world here. Let the inactives chime in and whatnot

I'm going to dig through the thread

[Black]

You scumread me for having this thought, to keep options open..

Are you trying to scumcase me or what? I'm literally the only one here that can't be Kira so I have no clue why you are interacting with my thoughts and opinions so much

[Black]

why do you think it's me, black

I just think it can be you. I disagree with HPE that you are clear and I want to take a deeper look

[Black]

Maybe Umbreon has your head clouded.

I thought you were follower on association alone so idk why you keep bringing up reasons why I thought you were scummy lol. Just chill and let me do my thing. I've said a million times I'm not very good at this game XD

[Black]

Kokichi doesn't think I'm Kira guys. I'm the Assistant I literally can't be Kira

[Black]

*snip*

Kawaii I really like these little breakdowns. Could you do one for StD?

[Black]

@HPE, would you say this list accurately describes how you feel?

POSSIBLY KIRA

1. Gimli (Teru Mikami)

NOT KIRA

1. Black (Misa Amane)
2. KawaiiKame (Hideki Ide)
3. Save The Dragons (Raye Penber)
4. HighPrincessErinys (Shuichi Aizawa)
5. Kokichi Oma (Thierry Morrello)
6. MegAzumarill (Quillsh Wammy)
7. Not_Mafia (Mihael Keehl)

[Black]

VOTE: Gimli

Not sold on Kira!Hpe yet

Thoughts on Kira!StD?

[Black]

Is StD Kira?

First I think it will be helpful to look at all interactions and mentions of StD from Vander, a confirmed follower

#236 - the first time Vander acknowledges StD. In this post Vander is asking StD what his thoughts on Kokichi are. This could be follower trying to gauge where his Kira stands on a slot. What I find weird is StD already made it clear how he felt about Kokichi in #191 so why is Vander trying to get more here? For what it's worth, StD doesn't answer this question. Instead he just votes for Kokichi in #282
#378 - Vander agrees with StD here about Kokichi probably not being Kira. Not much to gain from this I don't think. Could be a follower trying to force another interaction with his Kira so that he doesn't seem too distant
#763 - Vander asks StD why he doesn't think Lorne or mala could be Kira. This feels similar to 236 above where it feels like Vander is trying to figure out StD's thoughts on people. Kinda feels like subtle PR hunting and Vander asking the one person he knows is scum their thoughts. StD answers this in #762 and says that he TRs mala because of the way she has handled herself
#771 - Vander asks StD to elaborate

even more

and says he doesn't understand the mala read despite ALSO townreading her two times earlier for behavioral stuff. This implies Vander understands the TR but he's trying to get more information out of StD. He's PR hunting
#784 - Vander asking StD why mala can't be scum here
#1029 - Vander still pressuring StD about the mala townread. Very odd stuff considering he townread two of mala's posts earlier. These last 4 interactions seem very forced so that when someone goes back and looks at them they can say "Vander pushed StD, no way StD is Kira". This isn't pushing at all. It's Vander begging StD to elaborate on a TR
#1059 - Vander disagrees with StD that Gimli might be a follower to Kira!Kawaii
#1080 - this one is short and I think pretty important so I'm posting it: "I was potentially moving to Mala/kokichi/std today until that post" ......wait what? Vander actually says here that he was considering "moving to StD" after no previous expression of suspicion or anything. The only thing Vander has been saying in regards to StD is how he doesn't understand StD's mala TR. This is clearly distancing throwing StD's name in here
#1091 - Vander says he suddenly remembers why StD townread mala. Yeah...ok...

The next post is Vander's reads list. I've bolded and highlighted the part about StD:

I kind of just want the day to end at this point, I feel like I'm just tunneling my reads harder and harder.

I still think Gimli is a pretty terrible lim, I think the way he's played is the kind of inconsistency that comes more often from passionate town than scum with an agenda.

I still don't think Kawaii is town, but I think other people sound scummy and I'm happy to entertain the possibility that I'm just really tunneled.


I didn't like Mala's reaction to Gimli at all, I feel like when someone calls you out as a TPR people react in several different ways. I think the towny way to react, regardless of whether you'reTPR or not, is to kind of play into it, like giving a wink emoji or joking about your vig target or something.
I think Mala's reaction was pretty scummy, like Mala seemed really annoyed in a really obviously "I'm a TPR" type way. I get that this may seem unhelpful to talk about, but it was imo so blatant that there's no chance anyone missed it, so I'm just going to talk about it. I basically feel like if you are what you're softing it doesn't make sense because you would not want to actually react in that way, and it didn't feel at all like a VT trying to take a bullet, so I think it was just scummy.

I thought STD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago was pretty good, I got the vibe from it that they actually believed what they were saying and weren't defending themselves just for the sake of defending themselves.

I really, really, really don't like kokichi's continual defence of "I literally can't be Kira" because it relies on the premise that followers would have just hard defended them facing an early D1, and the fact that no one did is clearing.
I don't really think this is something kokichi actually believes so it just reads as false.

Other than that, my non updated reads are that I think black and lorne are town and everyone else is null.

^^
This is really weird btw. Extremely shallow read on StD. Just a few posts before this Vander was "considering moving to StD" today but here he's just like "uh I like StD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago"

These are all the interactions from Vander to StD. My first reaction is I can't believe HPE has cleared StD over this

I think I want to look at HPE to StD next

[Black]

hpe looks good cause vander pushed hpe

Yeah my current guess is StD Kira, HPE/Vander followers

Not confident but that's what I'm feeling atm

[Black]

Vander's entire game toward StD was trying to get StD to elaborate on his TR and then when StD finally did, going "oh ok yeah I remember that now"

[Black]

Do your ass an ISO read and you'll see that

StD and Vanderscamp agree like, once

. Vanderscamp calls StD's reaction good and then

most of their interactions are disagreements

,

Vander including StD in solve lists for Kira/Followers

, and

by the end during twilight just openly saying that he thinks StD is a Follower to a lying Kira!Mala

. They have zero synergy, yet nor are they keeping distance.

Wait, this is extremely telling from HPE here. It clearly did the research (or knows what it is talking about) regarding Vander/StD interactions. This is seriously why you don't think StD could be Vander's Kira? It's the most surface level thing you could possibly say about someone in a reads list. There isn't even a read here...it's just "I agree with one thing StD said".

It was a few times actually

They don't have many interactions at all and I wouldn't say that most of them are disagreements. You can read my post on StD a bit ago but most of the interactions were Vander trying to get StD to explain his mala read and then going "oh ok I remember you saying that" when he finally does

He actually TRed StD in 1451. Also what are you saying here really? I don't see StD in any solve lists for Kira/Followers, can you point these out?

Where did this happen??

[Black]

HPE's defense of StD is what is sealing the deal here for me I think

[Black]

VOTE: StD

[Black]

Beetlejuicing is pretty interesting

[Black]

Wait what lmao. You expect us to believe that?

[Black]

Kira claiming follower once people are onto him makes sense to me. Otherwise why wouldn't you just let the mislim go through and win the game?

It's over

[Black]

Nice try StD but it's over

[Black]

All you had to do to win the game was to let us push you and lim you. So no way anybody is going to believe this lol

[Black]

Everybody get in here. We just caught Kira

[Black]

Nice WIFOM lmao

[Black]

You do realize that ability doesn't mean anything right?

[Black]

2. I am Not Kira! State that "I am Not Kira" and mod will confirm you have this ability. Otherwise does nothing regardless if you are Kira or Not, but everyone know you have this ability! Hey!

[Black]

Like... you have the ability but it doesn't confirm you are not Kira

[Black]

So that was your big brain play? Use the ability as Kira to try and prove you're not Kira? XD

[Black]

Ok riddle me this then. Why would you not just use that ability as town? Why did you claim follower?????

[Black]

Sorry, "use that ability without the follower claim" EBWOP

[Black]

Yeah but just now... if you are telling the truth about being a follower... why would you not use that ability without the claim?

[Black]

Nah, I think you just messed up lol

[Black]

I'm not entertaining this at all. If we lose from voting StD out then so be it. That's the only vote we make today

[Black]

The rest of the list will see that Gimli and I brought up great cases against you and then you made this hail mary play as a last ditch effort to win the game

[Black]

@HPE - this is Vander's last post. Where does Vander say StD is a follower to a lying Kira Mala?

But if she was going to do the detective shot anyway, why not

Because this way I get forced to CC.

[Black]

Also HPE can you find posts on this:

Vander including StD in solve lists for Kira/Followers

[Black]

it feels good to be open about it

game was just going to be boring otherwise

i think this is an insane play coming from kira tbh but if you just want to lim me i'm okay with it

This is the only play Kira can make here tbh. And I don't believe you about the boring game. If I was scum about to win D2 I would be thrilled and excited. It only got boring for you when people finally figure out you were Kira

[Black]

My vote will never, ever move here

[Black]

This one had a forgor. So it went to check and find the actual post, and now it literally can't find the post it was talking about. Going insane, it thinks.

I think you should vote for your Kira

[Black]

Wait. Do you really think Gimli is StD's Kira here?

[Black]

If you are choosing to believe StD then you have to think Gimli would be his Kira which makes no sense

[Black]

It's just HPE follower to StD Kira here, like I guessed

[Black]

Yeah but just now... if you are telling the truth about being a follower... why would you not use that ability without the claim?

std is 100% scum, and the only one with this kind of equity

I say we just kill him

Do you think he could actually be telling the truth? I don't

[Black]

Gonna be real with you StD doesn't give follower vibes to begin with, still feeling the Lorne/N_M slot or Meg for Gimli's second Follower.

He just claimed follower...

[Black]

Gonna be real with you StD doesn't give follower vibes to begin with, still feeling the Lorne/N_M slot or Meg for Gimli's second Follower.

He just claimed follower...

And why should it... believe him?

Why should it not?

[Black]

if hpe was kira it'd just accept killing std here

Exactly

[Black]

i am not kira

It's confirmed that Save The Dragons has skill "I am not Kira!".

Cool lol

[Black]

Can we vote Kira now please?

[Black]

What is the vote count sitting at right now anyhow? You're all calling this one a Follower to StD but it is genuinely trying to weigh up the options here because it still personally has reason to believe in Kira!Gimli.

You didn't answer me on why you think StD is lying

[Black]

Also HPE can you find posts on this:

Vander including StD in solve lists for Kira/Followers

[Black]

This is a nice try by the obvious scum team here. We stick with StD I think. He crumbled under the pressure and I think his follower claim was a last ditch effort in attempt to make people doubt voting for him

[Black]

mala, if I am right about StD, I did my best to fill your detective shoes

If I am wrong then I'm sorry I couldn't do more to save you

[Black]

Thank you HPE. Imo throwing StD in there after not having scumread him at all the entire game feels like distancing to me

[Black]

Wtf is happening, STD is claiming follower?

Yes

[Black]

But I think he did it under the weight of the Kira accusations

[Black]

I think scum not having a PT here really helped us in a situation where we probably should have lost

This is assuming I'm right. But if I'm wrong then I legit don't understand why StD wouldn't just let himself be limmed and win the game. I'm really, really not buying the "boring" reason but if I'm wrong then I guess this one's on me?

[Black]

No one, tbh

[Black]

Do you still think StD is lying? Or do you think he is Gimli's follower?

[Black]

This was Kira claiming follower though. Bet you didn't expect that!