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Post #14 (isolation #3) » Sun Dec 31, 2023 7:48 pm
Postby T3 »
I rolled town both times
In a game I modded recently I accidentally replaced 2 players into 1 slot and then left the incorrect Town Roleblocker role PM for the 2nd player sitting in their inbox for 2 hours until I realized my mistake… Luckily they didn’t read it
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Post #138 (isolation #7) » Wed Jan 03, 2024 6:11 am
Postby T3 »
In post 76, implosion wrote:
DragonEater has a certain aesthetic to his reasoning that reminds me of myself in a way, probably moreso in the past than now. The idea of viewing x thing as more/less likely to come from scum (i.e. reading 1 vs 2 people in an opening post) in such a way that really looks like splitting hairs unless you're the one making the claim. I think when I would post that way I probably tended to do it more as town than scum because it's a lot easier to naturally come up with a sort of hairbrained theory when you're genuinely thinking about the game. It's the kind of read I'd post in the first few pages and then go back and look at weeks later while rereading myself (as town) and genuinely have no idea how I came to the conclusion in the read. I think his first couple pages are fairly towny.
Agreed - I suspect that his 'conspiracy theories' are +town but I'd have to take a look at his meta.
there's also a part of me that wants to call this post like, really hard town for being the kind of thing scum would be very unlikely to genuinely think (because they have a scumbuddy they're interacting with/are probably more self-conscious about stuff) and also extremely unlikely to come up with the idea of faking
implosion is constantly saying things I agree with but I don't know if that makes him town.
say "this is more likely to come from town than scum" in the past, and immediately follow it with "I think this posting is more likely to come from town than scum" (not saying this is alignment indicative, just find it funny). As a note, yeah that's an early game read, not a lategame read.
Also Klick can you help me out here? I think you should understand why I would consider a fast-paced, TvT-heavy game start to be superior to a slow and "wow everyone is so towny" game start, considering how well our last TvT-heavy game went. And this game I feel everyone is just TRing other people and trying not to step on anybody's toes (except me, Kyo, and you to a degree). Which makes it very hard to read people.
So if you can help me push this game into TvT (or even TvS) territory that'd help.
Pedit: to me, making it out like that philosophy should dictate my every thought is a "misrep" of my intentions, so that's what I call it.
Also, what do you make of DV's post being the way it is?
Feels performative IMO
I doubt you'd struggle to find reads if people aren't pushing each other but maybe
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Post #302 (isolation #10) » Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:53 pm
Postby T3 »
In post 89, Ydrasse wrote:
implosion’s reasoning for reads so far has resonated with me and i don’t think anything feels forced (which i think is more important in this setup because wolves want to sneak in at least one of them)
Agreed although iirc he's good at faking that as scum
In post 66, ssbm_Kyouko wrote:This is not the point I'm making. In 46, you say that we should focus scumreads more than townreads because focusing townreads lets scum blend in. At the same time, you say Appearance is town and so far all he'd done was give out 2 unexplained TRs. If you think scum blends in by focusing on TRs, you don't also think that Appearance is town. You're claiming to have one philosophy on how to play the setup that contradicts your reads.
I don't like this post/line of logic. It feels less like a misrep (i actually don't like dragoneater calling it a misrep) and more like it's reductive, like if Dragoneater claims to have a particular philosophy that he mentioned then that philosophy doesn't necessarily underrun everything that he thinks. It's lacking in consideration imo as a reason to scumread dragoneater (and it does look like kyouko is scumreading dragoneater).
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Post #381 (isolation #17) » Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:09 pm
Postby T3 »
More specifically I think implosion is experienced enough to know that questionable/reductive reasoning isn't necessarily an indicator of scum and that DE (one of his townreads) is doing the same thing
Now I just lurk until DV and Klick figure out this is the correct solve and then we just convince two others.
The kind of rhetoric of this post is something I feel like I could write an essay about. In the last coalition game I played, I was scum and there was a player (Hero at Heart) who was repeatedly giving similar rhetoric of surety about their coalition (nb: both scum were in it). I think d1 in that game was somewhat easy for me to navigate probably in large part due to that kind of rhetoric, where certain people (myself included) were almost viewed as above scrutiny in a way that felt like it radiated out from Hero's reads. Granted, Hero actually did change his reads plenty of times iirc, but ultimately the town deferred to it with the only real objection coming from me (because i softly wanted my scumbuddy off the coalition).
In this case, I think this coalition is massively likely to have scum on it somewhere. And I don't think DragonEater has the same kind of rhetorical sway that Hero did in that game. But it really makes me not like the direction that this day is going right now.
DV wrote:It’s weird to me that you’d use the amount of time since we last played together to question the reliability of my read on you and then make an unsolicited comment on my scumplay (particularly since 5-10 years ago I was probably better known for strong town play than strong scum play).
The comment on scumplay is more a continuation of 155 than it is of 156
I should note that Hero at Heart is an alt of Dragon
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Post #726 (isolation #22) » Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:23 pm
Postby T3 »
In post 692, Ydrasse wrote:
i just haven't... felt like posting. i've been procrastinating on doing a lot of things the past few days and this is an unfortunate victim of it.
i live vaguely in a world i think rn where it's like... gob... appearance...??? maybe??? as the wolf team. i'm unsure. i haven't sifted through the last few pages much yet but i saw my name and it was shiny to my eyes
In post 737, T3 wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy but some of his reasoning for townreading people is like, word-for-word stuff that I used to say when I was scum.
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Post #778 (isolation #27) » Sun Jan 14, 2024 12:45 pm
Postby T3 »
In post 734, DragonEater70 wrote:
I am mainly annoyed with the fact that I put Klick in charge and he decided to sheep me over sheeping himself despite the fact that I had made a very clearly hurried choice that I wasn't even sure of.
Another thing I am wary of is the fact that Klick's reads have been aligning with mine too well.
But I think I can put this aside and just trust in tha power of tha mindmeld for now. And I do think Klick sheeping me does align with his town meta for instance.
In post 708, DragonEater70 wrote:
gob is very clearly town here because he's gasping at straws to scumread me.
And while for 95% of players that's scum indicative, gob is one of the like two players where it's very town indicative to do that
Smells like TMI to me. Town dragon wouldnt have the confidence to TR me here. You are trying to TR me to get me off your back.
I'd actually agree with this too - in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, gob made up some reachy and frankly absurd reasons to scumread people. Obviously Dragon was not in that game, but I find it a little strange that he wouldn't due at least a little bit of due dilligence to confirm his subjective meta experience with gob.
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Post #782 (isolation #31) » Sun Jan 14, 2024 12:56 pm
Postby T3 »
Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.
In post 782, T3 wrote:
Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.
How am I powerwolfy when I am not even pushing implo right now who in a wolf!me world is most likely a town lhf. C'mon you can do better shade than that.
It’s not exactly powerwolfy. Idk how to describe it at 1 :15 am
Small sample size although I’ve seen those type of posts where one expresses a desire to change a gamestate to fit one’s individual ability to make reads come from scum
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Post #831 (isolation #34) » Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:20 pm
Postby T3 »
Maybe I’m tunneled
I suppose I think that a general aspect of Dragon’s play this game is very very reminiscent of how I used to play as scum but obviously Dragon is his own person
In post 782, T3 wrote:
Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.
How am I powerwolfy when I am not even pushing implo right now who in a wolf!me world is most likely a town lhf. C'mon you can do better shade than that.
It’s not exactly powerwolfy. Idk how to describe it at 1 :15 am
A better way to put it would be “being really over-the-top about caring whether town wins or not”
I don’t think that fully encompasses what I mean but that’ll do
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Post #835 (isolation #38) » Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:25 pm
Postby T3 »
In post 812, fireisredsir wrote:but it does feel like dragon has this energy throughout the game where he feels like he wants to be doing more, taking more control, forcing the gamestate into places he wants it to go. and he's presenting that as a town mindset, but if he is scum, then i think that kind of energy could manifest in making plays like this. i recognize it because i think i have that kind of energy as scum a lot, where i want to keep doing more and keep setting things up and improving the position
I truly am not sure of the scumread there by any means, but of everyone on the coalition, I think Appearance has fit the most with what I expect from scumplay. I know that it is common to interpret appearance’s style of play as scummy, but I just don’t think it’s Dragon, and I agree that Ydrasse was townie.
I'm not really sure how to read Appareance. I've gone through his ISO and tracked his reads on specific players and everything logically checked out.
In post 896, Dunnstral wrote:What implosion posts in 783 here is super vague and you can say this about pretty much anyone. I don't think implosion is super vague as town like this so this feels off to me. Also I want to note that I copy paste what implosion writes and make it about them to try to showcase this and Klick responds super seriously but without much explanation. My belief here is that Klick did not even read implosion's post above and did not realize I was posting the same thing as implosion, and this not reading of posts strikes me as more likely to come from mafia (regardless of implosion's alignment really)
Was this called the 'nsg tell' at some point or was that something else
I realised you posted the same thing back at implosion, I just thought when implosion said it it made sense and when you said it it didn't
nsg tell is when someone doesn't pick up on a joke
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Post #1038 (isolation #47) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:40 pm
Postby T3 »
In post 689, implosion wrote:
I still kind of like Ydrasse's early play toward me, coming off of Toriel's patience it feels like the right amount of skepticism toward scumreads of me for the right reasons. I also like her early self-analysis. 354 also feels particularly like a town post, i think it's awkward for scum out of nowhere to either put up a 5-town coalition or put up a coalition with their scumbuddy on it. Possibly less so if she's scum with elements or appearance since she said they'd be the first to go off the list in case she got added (which part of me thinks would be a bit conspicuous but from my recent experience playing scum in this setup you do feel like you have to be a bit conspicuous in that way sometimes. Or at least i did). 540 gives me mixed feelings as sort of the follow up to that post in that it is kind of an easy thing to do as scum to throw up your hands in the air, give a couple strong townreads, and then prepare for pretty much any form of the coalition failing. The coalition was 1 vote from passing so maybe this post is like, a wriggle as scum to try to get out of an all-town coalition she'd committed to without having to unvote it? the third paragraph in the post seems really hard to make in that case though so probably if she's scum there was already scum in that coalition.
I think the main thing I probably should be looking for in Ydrasse's play is a specific form of motivation/caring that she had in spades in Toriel's patience where it was like, abundantly clear that even though she was being thoroughly beaten down by the gamestate she still cared about the game. And she hasn't been beaten down by the gamestate in this game but she has been a little out of it and 540 gives me some worries on that front because making a big post like that and then doing nothing post coalition yet is kind of yikes in that department, like it would make sense as scum who is trying to wait a bit to see where the cards fall + who is running out of that kind of motivation to muster consistently.
In post 692, Ydrasse wrote:
i just haven't... felt like posting. i've been procrastinating on doing a lot of things the past few days and this is an unfortunate victim of it.
i live vaguely in a world i think rn where it's like... gob... appearance...??? maybe??? as the wolf team. i'm unsure. i haven't sifted through the last few pages much yet but i saw my name and it was shiny to my eyes
I read this and felt like it reminded me of Radio Buzz for a minute - like the tone matches really well and I thought it was scummy, but then I remembered thinking it was scummy in Radio Buzz also and double checked and sure enough that was a town game - I just tend to scumread this kind of post from you because I think I'd seen you AtE over effort levels specifically, as scum, prior to Radio Buzz. But I think there's a distinction to be made and this feels like the town you.
Like when you're scum it doesn't look as much like AtE even though it makes me feel more AtE'ed, if that makes sense. As town it looks like AtE even though it's not really and it's just how you talk about your feelings. I think what I'm getting at is maybe that you force it a little more as scum but that you're good at it so even though you're fudging it a little it comes off more pure when you're scum
I think Ydrasse can definitely make that post as scum. There are still things in her early ISO that give me pause but I feel she has pretty good scum equity right now. I think there are probably things she is likely to do but likely can't fake in the long term with the current cadence of the game as well so I think she'll also become more readable over time so maybe she's a bad lim for today for that reason
His entrance is not exactly impressive and I feel like Ydrasse was scum. I feel like the aspects of her posting that people were saying she'd have trouble faking as scum are actually things she definitely can fake over the course of her being in this game
In post 742, gob wrote:
T3 yfrasse seem good. implo will need to go some point soon. maybr dunn too
Do you realize Dunn replaced Ydrasse?
VOTE: implosion
I don't think his scumread on ydra tracks at all and I do not think this is a town tunnel
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Post #1039 (isolation #48) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:41 pm
Postby T3 »
In post 689, implosion wrote:
I still kind of like Ydrasse's early play toward me, coming off of Toriel's patience it feels like the right amount of skepticism toward scumreads of me for the right reasons. I also like her early self-analysis. 354 also feels particularly like a town post, i think it's awkward for scum out of nowhere to either put up a 5-town coalition or put up a coalition with their scumbuddy on it. Possibly less so if she's scum with elements or appearance since she said they'd be the first to go off the list in case she got added (which part of me thinks would be a bit conspicuous but from my recent experience playing scum in this setup you do feel like you have to be a bit conspicuous in that way sometimes
In post 746, implosion wrote:
His entrance is not exactly impressive and I feel like Ydrasse was scum. I feel like the aspects of her posting that people were saying she'd have trouble faking as scum are actually things she definitely can fake over the course of her being in this game
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Post #1040 (isolation #49) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:42 pm
Postby T3 »
The stuff about Dunn's entrance not being impressive is just bad and should indicate to everyone that implosion's Dunn read shouldn't be taken too seriously
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Post #1044 (isolation #53) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:50 pm
Postby T3 »
Do we actually scumread Appearance or are we just voting him because he's not that charismatic and isn't posting much of substance
The closest thing I've seen to an actual scumread is DV's point about "Appearance is doing a lot of work to get townread with no follow-through" but I think this is more or less just a playstyle thing
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Post #1045 (isolation #54) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:55 pm
Postby T3 »
The progression between 706 and [/post]746[/post] is poor too - this is less strong of a point but I almost wonder if implosion decided to push Dunn there because he's an easy mislim as town. That would discredit my bussing theory though. Either way I want implosion gone today, unless people have better ideas.
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Post #1092 (isolation #58) » Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:34 am
Postby T3 »
I guess this indicates that scum were happy with the gamestate and have thread control and don't want gob to ruin that? bc no one really took his reads seriously
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Post #1128 (isolation #59) » Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:07 am
Postby T3 »
In post 1097, implosion wrote:
It's really peculiar to try to analyze a kill on someone who didn't have any thread control but had strong opinions that were running against the grain.
Nah it’s not exactly thread control, more how much will their actions actually change the gamestate. For example in a recent scumgame I killed Titus and faked a guilty on Bingle - despite the fact that their reads were dead wrong and neither of them were widely townread, they were actively pushing people and trying to change the gamestate and it was a threat to my control of the day thread. Tbh that’s more of a personal play philosophy more than anything else, I’m not sure if all other scum think the same way.
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Post #1132 (isolation #60) » Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:11 am
Postby T3 »
Imagine for a moment that the scumteam is made up of two widely townread players - who should they actually kill? They could kill the one or two people who are sussing them, but I highly doubt that gob was killed because of his reads. I think it’s more likely that scum thought that a gob kill would create a more favorable gamestate.