who are you and what did you do with the real MathdinoIn post 20, Mathdino wrote:Scumslips don't happen.
also hi everybody!
who are you and what did you do with the real MathdinoIn post 20, Mathdino wrote:Scumslips don't happen.
if this is how you feel, why not vote pops? Your vote is still your RVS on Mathdino, has your read on him changed?In post 57, Sando wrote:I think subsequently claiming Gamma has reacted badly to it is a flawed argument and somewhat opportunistic. He's also defended the Mason+Scum hunting strategy in 48 and it's incredibly flawed.
the more I read this the scummier it seems - "massive" stretch is an exaggeration, LAMIST "I'm happy to be out of RVS", opinions at the end aren't reflected through his vote or any form of direct engagement or pressure towards popsIn post 57, Sando wrote:pops made a massive stretch with his initial post, regardless of your views on masoning - pretty poor, but hey it pulled us out of RVS which I'm happy about, overall NAI (or NI for pops cause apparently mason+scum is a good hunting strategy). I think subsequently claiming Gamma has reacted badly to it is a flawed argument and somewhat opportunistic. He's also defended the Mason+Scum hunting strategy in 48 and it's incredibly flawed.
You're complaining about deadline, but then asking me what your vote is going to achieve? It should be obvious what your vote is going to achieve - pressure on pops and pressure on other players to commit to reads on the wagon. It generates far more information than leaving a RVS vote and offering some opinions without any real meat behind them.In post 69, Sando wrote:Flawed =/= scummy. We've gotten the outcome of pressure from pops in his fairly strident defence of mason-hunting. I think it's stupid, but I'm mulling over scumminess at the moment. What is my vote going to achieve? I'm not convinced it's scummy, and I've seen the reaction that I was looking for.GuiltyLion wrote:if this is how you feel, why not vote pops? Your vote is still your RVS on Mathdino, has your read on him changed?
My read on Mathdino is changing, but he's got his own thing going on and I'm not going to speak of possibilities there before it's had a chance to play out and we can draw some conclusions.
I think town is less likely to call attention to the game being out of RVS and taking enjoyment about that - it felt awkwardly shoehorned into your post rather than a genuine expression. also I'm not "ignoring" your 21 and 24 so much as those are pretty NAI safe posts that didn't tell me anything. I feel more strongly about the fact that you're apparently worried about deadline yet simultaneously failing to do any game advancing via a serious vote - especially when the opportunity is handed to you in the form of a non-RVS wagon on the player you've called out the most strongly so farIn post 69, Sando wrote:What about being out of RVS is LAMIST? It's a personal opinion that I (personally, me, Sando) am happy that we're out of RVS. I'm happy about that as any alignment. I also engaged with pops (21 & 24) during that whole discussion to try to draw out more information, which you're conveniently ignoring.GuiltyLion wrote:the more I read this the scummier it seems - "massive" stretch is an exaggeration, LAMIST "I'm happy to be out of RVS", opinions at the end aren't reflected through his vote or any form of direct engagement or pressure towards pops
a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!In post 73, Sando wrote:If this is how you feel, why not vote Sando?
Second on VD wagon, desperate for Dino approval before voting me...
who should we vote instead?In post 79, verydark wrote:I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.
a) the posts from verydark in 84 and 89, maybe also see if anyone tries to preempt the wagon and WK it. You yourself acknowledged the wagon was doing things in 86, yet you aren't going to give me any credit for that?In post 88, Sando wrote:a) What are you trying to get out of it gamestate wise?In post 78, GuiltyLion wrote:a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!
b) Why is being "second on VD wagon" scummy?
c) How am I desperate for his approval?
b) It's not, in isolation, but see above, not voting me, and the desperation for someone else to weigh in on me before you vote...a pattern emerges!
c)GL wrote:Math do you see what I'm saying about Sando though?He's engaged, gives incredibly weak (ie say nothing about my alignment) reasons for why "that's just Sando", and you magically back off.GL wrote:you don't have to trust me at all to engage with the points I have made
Looks like you're trying to get someone to make the first move with you, and when they won't, you back down.
what kind of testIn post 102, Mathdino wrote:It's hard for me to see GLs vote as anything other than a test tbh
ah I actually vibe with this a lotIn post 109, Mathdino wrote:I don't know how to respond to the "GL most likely scum on the team" point. I think you misinterpreted me saying "i trust your townreads more than your scumreads" as me saying "i don't trust your alignment", when I really mean "if you're town, i will sheep you on your townreads but not necessarily your scumreads, and in this case i don't think you're onto something".
If it looks like I'm being lazy communicating, you're right. We're in a weird position of having a few players that are likely to post less than once a day. So far the gamestate reads to me as almost all the active players being town too (something I've seen happen). I want to see more people weigh in.
Re: Verydark: I was hard townreading his reaction but I really can't get past the self-vote. People on MS self-vote way too much nowadays and it's gotten to the point of making scum-AtE incredibly viable because no one's willing to lynch that shit.
In post 129, Gamma Emerald wrote:Oh my god you're so cluelessIn post 119, verydark wrote:In post 52, Mathdino wrote:NSG why the flying fuck are you not on this wagon
it can be a historic moment
we can show this wagon is some Serious Fucking Business
...this work for you?
...the post that caused you to want to create a "historical moment"
a) no, we don't "always" lynch this todayIn post 131, Gamma Emerald wrote:I wasn't sure what my issue with the initial reaction was but this puts it into place. It's that his reactions sorta don't match with much other than scum. His initial reaction was one I figured either mason or scum would have (since either has quite the incentive to not get lynched), but his self-vote completely threw out the possibility of him being mason.
VOTE: very dark
we always lynch this today
I amIn post 163, Aster wrote:So I'm holding a referendum. Everyone is invited (but not required) to give their opinion about a longer deadline. I'm proposing extending the deadline to 11 real life days per game day (other proposals welcome, but this is a baseline if there is strong support for extending it but no concensus on how long.)
this is a garbage townreadIn post 171, BuJaber wrote:I think gamma is town. He is asking the right questions at the right time. That read becomes more solid if pops flips scum because their interaction does not seem like SvS at all.
also this looks to me like scum trying to stir the pot in an early TvTIn post 171, BuJaber wrote:Sando seems to me like someone trying to look busy. I don't know exactly what he was trying to gain from the mathdino interrogation. It looked like a lot of pedantic questioning on very specific things that seem irrelevant. Also his vote on GL is rather suspicious and I can't figure out the town motivation for it. I disagree that it is townie to turn people's arguments for SRing you against them. In my experience it's what scum tends to do because they are trying to point the spotlight away from themselves.
But the points he makes about waiting to see the consequences of dino's reactions seem genuine and logical. I have a slight scumlean here.
sameIn post 204, Mathdino wrote:PR hunting on this site is easy.
whoa whoa whoaIn post 214, Mathdino wrote:when I'm by far the most likely NK.
that's entirely within your power to do so and many players are scumreading you because you haven't yetIn post 216, verydark wrote:I'd like to start scum-hunting and stop doing damage control.
I feel like this is scum trying to break up a townbloc but not willing to go for a specific player yetIn post 242, BuJaber wrote:I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum and is/are under pressure to look townie in front of them. I'm gonna do a reread tomorrow night and see if I can narrow it down.
but I think Sando's posts/push could make sense from a town perspective if he genuinely thought that Gamma was trying to direct a mason recruitIn post 236, Agent Sparkles wrote:Essentially all of this is attacking Gamma because... he disagrees with Gamma's claim of what he would do as mason here. Nothing in this post shows any kind of scum behavior or motivation, it's just attacking his belief of optimal play. Yet he puts enough stock into this to throw a ton of shade on him and switch his vote over it. And the "we always lynch this today" is just as trivial, since it's obviously ignoring possible mason claims.
Nah I was actually feeling the same wayIn post 255, Kmd4390 wrote:Is it weird if I think kop might be town for those two posts?
Maybe I'm biased/tunneled at this point but I feel like this thought process is fake - pops commenting on the name thing is more of a personality tell, I don't see a compelling reason to read anything alignment indicative in it. This looks more like BuJaber is reaching for reasons to justify an artificial townread on pops rather than something he naturally arrived at himself.In post 259, BuJaber wrote:In the middle of that s/he comments on gamma's nickname for vdark. I feel that scum who are eager to make a fake case on someone would not stop in the middle of the post to defend the same person from a non-game relevant comment. Scum would likely ignore irrelevant stuff like that because they'd be self-conscious about veering off-topic but more so if they are also in the process of fakung a scumread.
this also feels fake. We've already covered that townies do anti-town things, it doesn't make them scum. And I don't see how after MathDino rips on his reads list, verydark just says "ok, still would like to lynch Math" yet just abandons that conversation and push.In post 300, verydark wrote:VOTE: GammaEmerald
The partner thing killed it for me.Can't be much more anti-town than that.
Still would like to lynch Math, but that's seemingly less likely.
the main thing was that I've played with Agent Sparkles before, we were both scum together, and I felt like he was playing more obviously transparent/genuine in his opening here than in that game. It's a pretty weak reason to townread him and not something I'd swear by - especially because that was one of his first games and he's likely a better player now - but I just wanted to start town-binning to try to put some PoE pressure on scum. if AS is town then I think people discrediting townreads on him (on D1) may be useful information laterIn post 421, Something_Smart wrote:GL did so in 178, which did stick out as weird to me.In post 419, davesaz wrote:Someone explicitly townread Agent Sparkles, not sure why.
see but I think it's valid to think that scum!BuJaber is more likely to assume this than town!BuJaber. I feel like a townie would be more inclined to continue defending their reasoning, rather than jump to defending their alignment.In post 431, Something_Smart wrote:It's not.to try to mislynch people because of their playstyle, and he was trying to refute that argument.BuJaber thought that I was arguing that the phrasing "objectively scummy" is used by scum
BuJaber - what's your current read on verydark? I'm puzzled that you left a leading wagon to make a vanity vote here without giving us an update on your verydark scumread
then why aren't you voting Bujaber? You're both scumreading eachother but not voting eachother.In post 469, verydark wrote:I do think the pops vs Bujaber conflict in #415 feels weird, I thought it might be SvS (I already scum-leaned Bujaber) but I was null on pops, and if pops is scum, that would make my scum list even bigger, so I don't really know. I do still scum-lean Bujaber.
Something_Smart is echoing his predecessor, and I generally agree with his points so he's a town-read for me.
it's a general pattern where all the reasons he gives for townreading/scumreading people seem artificial to me:In post 545, Kmd4390 wrote:Can you go into some detail on your reasons for scumreading BuJaber? I see a few mentions that he's scummy and the two things you mentioned (trying to stir the pot, trying to justify a town read) up to the point of this post don't do anything for me. Those two points would seem like confirmation bias except that I don't see an original reason for the read.
MathDino's opening post was a meme about our Team Mafia team. Like maybe I'll grant a bit of a reach that "town!MathDino is more likely to think about calling the scumteam than scum!MathDino", but generally the joke is totally NAI and I don't see any reason to discount the possibility that a scum!Dino could have posted it.In post 30, BuJaber wrote:TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.
139 is kind of a long and all-over-the-place post and there's no explanation here about what makes it townie.In post 171, BuJaber wrote:Pops' subsequent posts give a much better impression. Particularly post 139 which gave me a very townie vibe.
this whole bit rests on the idea that "frustrated town who want to make a point self-vote earlier", but I don't really see any reason to believe that. This logic reads to me more like BuJaber wanted to start from the position of "self-voting to L-1 is scummy" and backwards justified it.In post 171, BuJaber wrote:I hate verydark's reactions. I hate his self vote. While I agree that it does come from both alignments the timing of the self-vote is just as important as the vote itself. There really is very little motivation for town to put themselves at L-1. Frustrated town who give up self-hammer. Frustrated town who want to make a point self-vote earlier. Self-voting so close to a wagon is terrible.
and at the time I thought this townread was egregiously bad, Gamma was kind of a pet scumread of mine at the time so I was personally flummoxed someone could be townreading him and there weren't any "right questions" that he had asked at the "right time".In post 171, BuJaber wrote:I think gamma is town. He is asking the right questions at the right time. That read becomes more solid if pops flips scum because their interaction does not seem like SvS at all.
to which I say,In post 259, BuJaber wrote:In the middle of that s/he comments on gamma's nickname for vdark. I feel that scum who are eager to make a fake case on someone would not stop in the middle of the post to defend the same person from a non-game relevant comment. Scum would likely ignore irrelevant stuff like that because they'd be self-conscious about veering off-topic but more so if they are also in the process of fakung a scumread.
Also he's given some reasons for scumreading Dave that were already called out as simply playstyle (by multiple players):In post 371, GuiltyLion wrote:Maybe I'm biased/tunneled at this point but I feel like this thought process is fake - pops commenting on the name thing is more of a personality tell, I don't see a compelling reason to read anything alignment indicative in it. This looks more like BuJaber is reaching for reasons to justify an artificial townread on pops rather than something he naturally arrived at himself.
and the whole reason he even seemed to start suspecting Dave is because he went at it from a "who would be scum in NSG/MathDino/GL/Dave/kmd", which is a forced angle to take to begin with.In post 380, BuJaber wrote:He said TR'd guilty for 2 posts looking like town without saying what about them looks town.
His only real scumread is on mylonnia which is an easy read to make at the moment.
His posts seems rather detached and passive like he doesn't want to create waves. Several of which are about wording and general things like that that don't require sorting people.
It's not just that I disagree with himIn post 558, Kmd4390 wrote:Guiltylion, yeah that sounds more like you just disagree with him than anything....
verydark was the counterwagon to BuJaberIn post 595, Something_Smart wrote:this is not at all why, I'm just busy and I haven't found much to say.In post 586, brassherald wrote:Something_Smart also has very low content. He posts, but doesn't say much, and I always feel like that's a good place to be when you just want to survive the day.
I will say this though: we need a counterwagon to BuJaber.
what is the relevant difference? There was a solid few days where both were substantial wagons and people chose to be on one or the other. Then the verydark wagon dissipated and mostly spread elsewhere, why does that necessitate another counterwagon? What's gained from that?In post 632, Something_Smart wrote:(And by the way GL, Bu was the counterwagon to verydark, not the other way around.)
also I don't follow you here at allIn post 613, Something_Smart wrote:Thought his bit about having too many townreads (531-532-534) seemed very genuine.
also, just as a heads up, this is basically up until deadlineIn post 641, Aster wrote:BuJaber has declared himself V/LA until April 1st through his user profile.
This is fair, point takenIn post 653, Something_Smart wrote: Relevant difference is, people saw the verydark wagon and chose not to join it, and instead created the BuJaber wagon. The BuJaber wagon was created because people did not want to continue pursuing the verydark wagon.
There has been no wagon that has arisen because people don't want to continue pursuing the BuJaber wagon; but I feel that way, and therefore I would like one.
this on the other hand I still disagree with pretty hard.In post 653, Something_Smart wrote: Easy to do as scum != scum are likely to do it.
Scum like to keep their options open. And I don't really think that people look townier when you're scum, because you're not really in the mindset of trying to identify scum but rather trying to find things that you can plausibly sell as scum. It takes extreme introspective and metacognitive abilities to replicate exactly how you would read people if you were town, so most likely scum are not going off how people actually seem to them but rather they are going off of what they deem strategically good and also believable.
There's also some anecdotal evidence, in that I have had this problem before as town. And the fact that he's trying to solve it means that he recognizes that it is, in fact, a problem.
If I were you I'd look at KMD before I look into popsIn post 660, Mathdino wrote:if i had to start cutting into my townreads, pops would be the place to start
actually wait you did already comment on itIn post 666, GuiltyLion wrote:Gamma what do you think of Smart's push onto brass? That's about the most notable new thing here I think
stop worrying about how you're coming off and worry more about lynching scum. Unless you think pops is more likely to be scum than BuJaber, voting pops instead of BuJaber is a bad voteIn post 675, verydark wrote:I'll put this here for now, because I'm hesitant to put Bujaber at L-1 unless anyone wants to give me their blessing.
uh excuse me some of us were death tunneling BuJaber as scum for the entirety of the dayIn post 724, Mathdino wrote:NGL that's the first time i've ever seen a "meh whatever" lynch flip scum
KMD indirectly tried to push me off of BuJaber several times and that's where I'd like to start today.In post 448, GuiltyLion wrote:I'm not trying to nail a 3p scumteam on D1. I'd currently lynch BuJaber and verydark in that order probably, then hunt for a 3rd in Mylo/Kmd/pops/davesaz depending on flips. If either of the current leading wagons are scum, I don't think there's any bussing in the 1.6 vote count.
yeah I'd probably say more likely Mylo than verydarkIn post 744, Gamma Emerald wrote:I disagree with verydark being a possible third with kmd/Buj
hey I mean I'm never more than like 80% confident on a scumread so 50-60 is high.In post 745, Something_Smart wrote:Scumhunter extraordinaire with 50-60% confidence?
And why do you feel Sparkles is town?
In post 442, GuiltyLion wrote:the main thing was that I've played with Agent Sparkles before, we were both scum together, and I felt like he was playing more obviously transparent/genuine in his opening here than in that game. It's a pretty weak reason to townread him and not something I'd swear by - especially because that was one of his first games and he's likely a better player now - but I just wanted to start town-binning to try to put some PoE pressure on scum. if AS is town then I think people discrediting townreads on him (on D1) may be useful information laterIn post 421, Something_Smart wrote:GL did so in 178, which did stick out as weird to me.In post 419, davesaz wrote:Someone explicitly townread Agent Sparkles, not sure why.
In post 445, GuiltyLion wrote:oh and one other reason for townreading AS was that he did my pet "make one read in the process of catching up and then flip it a few posts later" towntell when he went from scum-leaning me in 152 to town leaning me in 158. Most scum don't bother to fake that especially since I wasn't a focal point at that stage in the game
did the BuJaber flip affect your reads at allIn post 778, Green Crayons wrote:This is the next thing I'm doing.In post 712, Green Crayons wrote:I started off scum reading GL and that turned into a town read.In post 710, Mathdino wrote:Kmd and GL are good scum players and while they've done a bunch of pro-town things, I'm uncomfortable putting them under "neverlynch". They haven't exactly completely towntold yet (Kmd lightly did early game).
I started off town reading Kmd and that turned into a scum read.
Guess they're the next two to reread.
this is your main reason for townreading myloninja, yes? I don't really see that as impossible to come from scumIn post 674, Mathdino wrote:In post 244, Myloninja13 wrote:I have read through all of this, and feel thoroughly empty of opinions.In post 502, Myloninja13 wrote:I'm finally back, apologies for being completely absent so far.
[snip]
Pretty much everyone else left no notable impression on me so far.In post 551, Myloninja13 wrote:Hi, lurker coming from out of the shadows!
...And I'm still just as useless as I've been before. I'm sorry, but I just don't know what to say. I think after this game is over I'm going to have to stick to smaller games, because I'm struggling to tell people apart and analysis behaviors or anything.
But. I am going to actually make use of this game, and post at least some actual thoughts or analysis on this game later tonight, and then hopefully I'll have an idea going forward.do you really think scum doubles down on this "i don't know what the fuck i'm doing shtick" for the entirety of his ISOIn post 644, Myloninja13 wrote:To LUV, I would consider replacing if I wouldn't get blacklisted from other games from that. I'll just make sure I don't go in any future big games.
To Kmd, The only people I'd give light scum reads to is BuJaber and dave, both for awkward dialogue.