Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[SirCakez]

VOTE: norfolk
Just cuz we can't elim doesn't mean we shouldn't vote yo

[SirCakez]

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

[SirCakez]

Imperium are you scum?

[SirCakez]

But why do you ask?

Because I don't know if you are town or scum

[SirCakez]

But why do you ask?

Because I don't know if you are town or scum

They said they are town already why would they lie

Hm I wonder

[SirCakez]

Don't think I'll be shooting Dunn this game

[SirCakez]

If I don't get the gun I will be very happy with my performance this game

[SirCakez]

I will be keeping that close to my chest for now

[SirCakez]

Lol okay

What's funny?

[SirCakez]

I was pretty good reading Notsci in Legends

[SirCakez]

Hi all.

FOS Norfolk. Their 2 posts so far are slightly scummy, and also going silent after people pointed this out makes it even more suspicious. Could be explained by timezones or whatever but, that's some bayesian evidence imo.

I initially thought Imperium scummy because their early posts were fluffy to the point of spam-like, which reduces readability, which I don't see why town would do. But they seemed to post more substance after the first couple pages.

MUSHSHAGANA seemed town initially because they put in a lot of apparent effort, but I really don't like the reasoning against Whemestar. My understanding is that MUSHSHA's argument is that Whemestar is playing like a bad town. It just so happens that with these game mechanics, a bad town isn't really good strategy for scum to imitate, outside of WIFOM. So I don't understand their suspicion on Wheme.

I think some people said they read Dunnstral as town? I don't get why.

I lean town on Wheme for reasons related to the interaction with MUSHSHA mentioned above.

Anyone else I haven't mentioned are either lurkers or haven't caught my attention in any direction yet. Normally lynching lurkers isn't bad at all. Not sure if shooting is good though.

Regarding mechanics: yeah I agree with MUSHSHA's point that we should not try to make this game emulate one with normal votes and lynches. If we shoot the most suspicious person it kind of has a double benefit: either we get scum or the wrong read gets confirmed as town.

This post kinds of bothers me. It feels like STT felt they needed to comment on all of the "major" things that happened. When that's not really ever a necessary thing to do.

[SirCakez]

I don’t think I’ve posted anything of substance.

Are you saying you can't be read from fluff?

[SirCakez]

I'm looking more at tone of posts atm.

[SirCakez]

Spill it

[SirCakez]

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

[SirCakez]

shoot sircakez imo

Glad we can resume our normal hostilities so quickly.

[SirCakez]

Mush vote Norfolk with us

[SirCakez]

For Cakez:

Why would I do something that means nothing?

It indicates who you want elimmed
Even if you don't actually have control over it it only helps town later to see who was voting who

[SirCakez]

VOTE: ScrewTheTells
VOTE: Norfolk boy
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: SirCakez

Probably two scum in there

Why am I in this pool of scumlords?

[SirCakez]

For Cakez:

Why would I do something that means nothing?

It indicates who you want elimmed
Even if you don't actually have control over it

it only helps town later to see who was voting who

False. /Especially/ with the way I play Mafia, and /definitely/ in this setup.

My voting history is manipulative as hell in an ordinary Mafia game and attempting to get anything out of it is pointless. I'll often go without voting for most of a dayphase while I press multiple slots aggressively, or rapidly shift my vote around for only about 48 hours and then let it sit on someone I don't even scumread for awhile. So already, even if this were an ordinary game, me specifically having my vote down isn't helpful to town unless its time to wagon for an elimination, and then it's only helpful as weight on the wagon.

In this setup, it provides information to scum on who they can manipulate and in what way. Worse yet, unless the gunbearer /wants/ people to vote, it doesn't even help the town in the process. I even went over this in detail in one of my /very first posts in this thread/. Did you read my ISO before you decided to ask me to do something I went to great lengths to call out as having /basically negative utility/? No? Well, I would suggest you go and /do that/ then.

Ok well don't vote then
I think other people who don't play like this should be voting

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

How so?

Seems pretty obvious to me no? They keep mentioning the gun and how they don't want it like they're a innocent townie with bad reads. It seems pretty fake.

Voting isn’t going to give the scumteam information that’s dangerous to town any more than using townreads gives the scumteam information.

Vote if you want. Don’t vote if you want.

It doesn’t really matter.

I agree with this logic (no this is not townreading Imperium)

It's interesting that you think I can stop anyone from answering your questions, or that I would even necessarily want to stop it. More content is better, right? I hate your first post on this page for reasons entirely unrelated to you getting an answer to your question.

And it's even more interesting that you think I'm butting into your conversations at all. Should I simply not post in the thread whenever you are waiting for replies? Don't bother answering that. It's rhetorical, because even if the answer is yes, it's an unrealistic desire that literally no one will ever follow for you. The point is that I have no earthly idea what your expectations for me are here. That said, even if I did know, I'm inclined to not humor them at all from this point onward anyway, given that you jumped directly to appeal to ridicule when you came to these entirely false conclusions.

Your playstyle and tone is extremely obnoxious. This is not a read on you but a comment.

[SirCakez]

Albert B. Rampage has been replaced due to a sitewide ban. Please welcome unwnd!

Hi unwnd!

Mush, whemestar, and STT

Why STT?

[SirCakez]

What would flipping Norfolk clear up lotus?

@Cakez you can save three people who and why

Do I have to answer
I don't really have a good one nobody seems that townie so far this game

[SirCakez]

I can say Id be a fan of Norfolk, STT or NM being shot
Maybe Imperium but we'll see

[SirCakez]

Hi

shoot norfolk

yeah

Liking MUSH, RLotus and Dunnstral so far.

VOTE: ScrewTheTells
VOTE: Norfolk boy
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: SirCakez

Probably two scum in there

Also not a fan of this ISO

[SirCakez]

Sir cakez why do you not like rockhopper's iso when you agree with his scum reads???

The posts just feel really easy. Idk he also is probably LHF.

I asked you that question cakez because I wanted to see how much you had thought about that and Norfolk’s early posts, and what your explanation would be. And I thought your saying that Norfolk was basically aying that Netflix was the one with the gun so he didn’t have to scumhunt was odd. It felt in a similar vein to the way you pushed battle mage in xeno, and I wanted to see if your explanation felt similar.

I also asked because it doesn’t really look all that lamist to me, but it did feel like something easy to jump on. So sure, he can be scum, but does scum come out in their first two posts and say don’t shoot me when scum are the ones that really really don’t want to be shot? My neejerk is that scum don’t want to stand out like that right away, so it didn’t look lamist to me at all.

The “I’m glad I didn’t get the gun” might give off a sense of nervousness like he’d be evaluated on why he didn’t get the gun, but I’m not sure why he would worry about it really in this playerlist.

I mean in any case he’s either nervous scum or nervous town, and I thought it was odd that everyone just kinda landed on obvious nervous scum, so there’s either people looking for an easy push or there are bussers about.

You can disagree but you're shading me pretty heavily here.

[SirCakez]

I am scumhunting you yes cakes and I suspect your approach to Norfolk.

How is this similar to how I pushed BM in Xeno 2?

[SirCakez]

I like STT's second post more and buy their explanation for tonal oddities

[SirCakez]

Imperium's defense of Norfolk feels very unearned
I would not be surprised if Tammy is going in to help a scum buddy here

[SirCakez]

Norfolk Boy has made 4 posts and Whemestar has 46, so your last point about diverting attention definitely does not apply to me. If there is anything diverting attention away from Norfolk, it is Norfolk's own lurking.

I dislike this post categorizing Norfolk as lurking
It's way too early to call anyone as a lurker

[SirCakez]

I am scumhunting you yes cakes and I suspect your approach to Norfolk.

How is this similar to how I pushed BM in Xeno 2?

You pushed BM for really weak reasons and kept focusing on them going on some meta something.

Your push on norfolk feels really weak in the same way. I don't get the lamist argument in the least bit, and then your interpretation that he was saying he wasn't going to be scumhunting was a really bad read. Looks like you pushing a narrative rather than actually reading.

Ok but clearly I'm not the only one seeing the scum signs on Norfolk
And I never said that post was declaring he wasn't scumhunting
Rather I think it's a post aimed at dissuading scumhunting in general

[SirCakez]

Specifically look at the last line
It's like saying other people shouldn't be able to influence the gunshot which is obviously not good for town

[SirCakez]

How am I acting like he's confscum?
I would like more posts from the slot for sure.
My STT read just flipped on one post and I'm still open to changing based on what I see. It's still quite early.

[SirCakez]

I think Norfolk's ISO as is has been read into enough and I think we need more posting from them

[SirCakez]

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

But you did.

Wat
I called the post scummy
That's scumhunting

[SirCakez]

We're now at the point of the game where somebody is rabidly defending somebody who's barely posted

Like, can you really townread norfolk that hard? Why can't sircakez/unwnd be bussing? etc

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

But you did.

Wat
I called the post scummy
That's scumhunting

I don't like that you claimed that he was basically saying don't scum hunt there. I don't like your commentary there because it feels like a stretch designed to build a narrative rather than actually read the person.

Ok

I might as well throw down the shot I'd take now, since I've gotten enough data around it by now that I don't care about holding it back anymore.

SirCakez. That is the one slot I actually scumread /confidently./ Lots of nulls, a handful of shaky scumreads, but this slot <insert godawful pun on taking the cake>. Imperium found one solid reason to scumread the slot already. There's also an event that won't convince anyone but me that happened as well. Since inevitably the question will be asked: Let us simply state that there is no way Cakez simply did not see my rant about voting, read posts 21 and 23 as demonstrable proof of this, and move on from there since it will change exactly no minds on alignment but my own.

That said, 23 is also an interesting post even separate from my personal approach to Mafia. Almost the entire gamestate has evolved, but Cakez is still, as a practical matter, living on page 1 and has made little or no effort to move beyond that.

I don't want to argue with you but your massive walls were too much for me to read so I was skimming and probably missed it.
I don't care if you SR me but I think that of all things is a stupid reason to SR me. At least I can see Imperium's argument.

[SirCakez]

I really don't have a grasp on this game yet. Mush says the gamestate has progressed but frankly I don't feel it has.

[SirCakez]

Unwnd says he likes this game because it's slower but I actually wish there was more posting here. I do better in games with high post volume.

[SirCakez]

Voting isn’t going to give the scumteam information that’s dangerous to town any more than using townreads gives the scumteam information.

Vote if you want. Don’t vote if you want.

It doesn’t really matter.

I agree with this logic (no this is not townreading Imperium)

[snip]

Your playstyle and tone is extremely obnoxious. This is not a read on you but a comment.

I don't like this one bit. Cakez seems way too concerned about how his reads are perceived, like he doesn't want to risk knocking over something he has carefully constructed.

People constantly misinterpret what I'm saying so I like to go out of my way to make it obvious what I mean. Like here I wanted it to be clear I don't think Mush's play is scummy in itself, but I dislike his playstyle as a player.
Don't you see how saying someone's playstyle/tone is obnoxious could be construed as a scumread?

[SirCakez]

Oh I see that's fair enough
I was just being careful

[SirCakez]

You didn't miss it, you literally directly responded to it. But nice try.

Also, I literally outright said it would convince no one but me. But nice try.

Where?

[SirCakez]

For both things
The only voting thing I responded to from you was 186 and 198
Not whatever voting wall you're referring to

[SirCakez]

I ISOed you to double-check and I assume these are the posts you were referring to?

Hi folks.

Fair warning: My normal style of posting isn't going to be as common this game due to homelessness. It will not affect my ability to play, only my playstyle (less wallposting and/or less posting in general) to varying amounts from day to day based on what needs doing that day. I have no interest in discussing my personal situation further, this is just a heads up if you're foolish enough to rely on meta. Today is a more or less normal day for me, expect changes to be more evident tomorrow and onwards.



My assumption regarding the votecount is it's purely a visual reference to where the general consensus is; a decision-making aid for the gunbearer and a source of information on town opinions for the scum. I doubt Syryana would give us secret vote mechanics. No reference is made to a vote goal, implying a lack of mechanical pressure from votes regardless. I expect that votes are going to have negative utility (giving up information to scum) unless a gunbearer specifically asks for them, and even then they should only be useful near the end of a day.

This means that basically, the rest of the town is reliant on the gunbearer having their back to hard-push slots. I'm probably going to have some difficulty in this setup, because my normal aggressive playstyle will be functionally useless: I have no power to really lean on a slot unless I'm armed, and then I practically have total control of the game. A gunbearer trusting me might give me mechanical backup to really sink my teeth into the gamestate, but I can't rely on that. Based on my read of the setup, most of town's utility is going to be content production, rather than collective sorting. The gunbearer's reads are going to be the axis everything spins around, the rest of us have limited ability to influence the gamestate.

This is going to take some adjustment. Hopefully as more players join we'll get enough content for me to read the dynamics of this playerlist.

The concern with voting in this setup is that the town has very little agency to begin with. Only one person has /any/ power, and we know they are town, so we should trust them to have town's back. Now, leashing shots to votes sounds great in theory. After all, it just puts us roughly at "ordinary mafia game", with a final adjudicator. In practice, however, it gives the scum team agency they shouldn't have, and takes away one major town-sided element the gunbearer gives us.

The exclusive advantage that the town has in a setup like this over an ordinary Mafia game is that it avoids the ironclad law of committees being absolute hot fucking garbage at actually performing tasks well. (This law is so ironclad that it's a major component of managerial level sabotage: you load important committees with more than IIRC 8 people, and ensure that at least one of them is dead weight, and nothing will ever get done, ever ever ever.)

Instead of /everyone/ simultaneously trying to herd cats in totally different directions oh and by the way some of the cats have rabies, you have a single point of control. No need to get everyone on the same page at all -- in fact, depending on the gunbearer, having literally no agreement could be a net benefit for sorting. (Just by way of example, I would be quite effective in a situation where every single player in the list was arguing with every single other player here.) No Abilene paradox scenarios come up here, because the gunbearer has no incentive to compromise to try and make the other players happy: if they miss their shot they're out, and if they hit then clearly they were right and it's hard to complain. They can use the rest of the town as essentially independent investigators to help them make their decisions, but they are not required to do what everyone else wants them to do.

I think we should lean into the advantage we have of a single guaranteed pro-town controller of the gamestate, even if it means the normal townies have less agency and control. In the process, we deny scum a large part (obviously not /all/, but I think /any/ advantage is important) of the only agency that they have in the setup while a gunbearer is alive: misdirecting the shot.

Yeah I skimmed past both of these early on.

[SirCakez]

move on from there since it will change exactly no minds on alignment but my own.

Oh this for the second thing you said
I don't really care because what you said was demonstrably false

[SirCakez]

You might want to say that your commentary was in response to someone else, but you would be telling a lie if you did. The only other thing even referring to voting on the first page was someone saying they were curious about the votecounter, and my post about voting being non-optimal. That's it. You can go and look for yourself. This is publicly accessible information.

I was using common sense because of the game mechanics meaning we obviously can't elim....

[SirCakez]

Sorry to tell you the game doesn't revolve around you

[SirCakez]

Whatever I'm not gonna talk about this anymore because people can make up their own minds on it and it's non productive and frankly it annoys me discussing with you because your holier-than-thou attitude

[SirCakez]

@Unwnd who are you townreading right now?

[SirCakez]

Whatever I'm not gonna talk about this anymore because people can make up their own minds on it and it's non productive and frankly it annoys me discussing with you because your holier-than-thou attitude

[SirCakez]

I'm not even trying to pocket you though q.q

[SirCakez]

I legitimately just want help finding the town in this rabble and I think you're a very reliable source

[SirCakez]

Norfolk what did you think of STT's more recent post where they explained show they have an odd posting style?

[SirCakez]

Also do you have any townreads?

[SirCakez]

sigh you guys are completely missing my point. So either I'm being unclear or you guys are just not actually comprehending what I'm saying. I think Lotus is the only one that has interacted with what I'm saying and catching what I'm meaning.

I'm not arguing that norfolk is town. I'm saying that his original posts were not that scummy to warrant being on everyone's scum lists and to get the type of pushes that cakez/unwnd/ducchess gave. So far Not Mafia has called norfolk town, Mush hasn't given a read I don't think, and then remove Norfolk himself. That leaves 8 players who have called him scum, some with reasoning that I don't buy/I think is odd.

If he is town, then he is being pushed/scumread by scum as an easy push. If not_mafia and Mush are scum, we're looking at 2 in that pool of 8. I don't currently think both of them are scum, which means more in that pool of 8.

If he is scum, there are bussers/distancers about and I'm trying to make sense of the pushes and reasoning there to try to determine who's being genuine and who's going along because it looks good. And unwnd being like yeah shoot him he's a slanker, but not taking about other ones who have as many or fewer posts than norfolk feels wrong on so many levels. Cakez pushing him in ways that make no sense whatsoever and trying to tie me to Norfolk when he's seen me push against reads and try to make sense of them in previous games is really weird as well, and I don't buy that his read is coming from a genuine place. It just feels all kinds of wrong.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Regardless of Norfolk's alignment, the reads on him are weird. I'm trying to read the people who are reading Norfolk who's reads don't read genuine to me.

This is so disingenuous
You literally wrote a wall defending Norfolk
For you to backpedal here and go "whoa I wasn't actually townreading them" feels like a lie

[SirCakez]

How is my play centered around shooting Norfolk?
Like, at all?

[SirCakez]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

[SirCakez]

At this point it's not even about the Norfolk read
It feels like your play around them is incredibly posturey and setting yourself up to look good whether it flips town or scum

[SirCakez]

You never did actually call him town directly yes that's my point
The impression of anyone reading that wall without context would be that you townread the slot
Because why would you go so out of your way to defend someone who is null?

[SirCakez]

That wall is a giant fencesit basically if you're not committing to call Norfolk town

[SirCakez]

That's like saying "I don't understand townreads on Joe Schmo"
And then later going "Actually by the way I'm not declaring a read on Joe Schmo at all."

It doesn't connect logically.

[SirCakez]

i feel like you're interaction with me in total bad faith cakez.

How is this any different from the way I grilled gamma on his diamond sentinel read, while thinking diamond sentinel was likely to be scum, but that I thought gamma's read on him was pushing him disingenuously?

How is it?

I think you are scum so yeah this is not good faith
I don't remember what you're referring to, something in Smoke right?

[SirCakez]

At this point it's not even about the Norfolk read
It feels like your play around them is incredibly posturey and setting yourself up to look good whether it flips town or scum

This is the core of my point.

[SirCakez]

That's like saying "I don't understand townreads on Joe Schmo"
And then later going "Actually by the way I'm not declaring a read on Joe Schmo at all."

It doesn't connect logically.

It makes sense logically if you're actually playing mafia.

Joe Schmo's posts don't warrant the reads he got, someone is being disingenuous regardless of Joe Schmo's posts.

I thought we were playing mafia here and reading the whole room, my bad.

Tell me how to play this game again senpai, how am I supposed to scum hunt?

Ok but
If you're saying someone should not be getting certain reads
Then that logically implies you believe the opposite thing.

Like that's not a crazy connection to make????

[SirCakez]

What are you even talking about
They are different things completely
I said Imperium's reason for SRing me makes sense, but I'm criticizing their defense of Norfolk

[SirCakez]

399 was in reference to where Imperium said they SRed me because they didn't believe my post where I said Norfolk was dissuading scumhunting
Which I can still buy as a reason to SR me

[SirCakez]

In 383

[SirCakez]

You are just pulling random posts out of my ISO and going "look he's making up arguments"

[SirCakez]

Imperium is/was arguing scumreads on Norfolk don't make sense
I argued that part of your reasoning for scumreading me didn't make sense

What is the connection?

[SirCakez]

Also what do all the slashes mean?

[SirCakez]

This is so disingenuous
You literally wrote a wall defending Norfolk
For you to backpedal here and go "whoa I wasn't actually townreading them" feels like a lie

And in that wall she wrote "could be either or" when referring to his alignment, which is why I've been so rabidly trying to get people to offer up specifics on why they dislike our defense. If you actually read what she's saying you'll see that she's concerned with the number of people pushing Norfolk and the confidence that they're pushing him with. This doesn't mean she's defending Norfolk. It does mean that she doesn't agree with the push, but just because she doesn't have a scumread there doesn't mean that the only other possibility is a townread.

Why do you/Tammy think people are "so confident" on Norfolk?
Not anywhere in this thread have i seen people expressing overtly confident scumreads on Norfolk

[SirCakez]

I don't think there is more to be gained from arguing on this point again Imperium it seems like we are not going to see eye to eye on this so no point clogging the thread

[SirCakez]

How is my play centered around shooting Norfolk?
Like, at all?

Norfolk is your top scum suspect. You've called for him to be shot or people to vote him several times. You've freaked out at us for defending Norfolk a couple of times now. You've been involved in most Norfolk-related discussions to add fuel to the fire. You haven't been invested in anything else vaguely resembling your Norfolk passion.

Uhhhh I never declared him my top SR or for him to be shot.
It's because it seems to be the only things people want to talk about. Just now I tried to step away from it and again got dragged back into it by Mush and you. I don't want to press this point anymore.

[SirCakez]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

[SirCakez]

At this point it's not even about the Norfolk read
It feels like your play around them is incredibly posturey and setting yourself up to look good whether it flips town or scum

Makes zero sense for you to have this interpretation.

Posture, as I understand it, is stance without substance. We haven't really taken a stance on Norfolk but we have provided plenty of substance. How is us digging @ people pushing Norfolk but not taking a stance setting ourselves up to look good?

I thought posture meant setting up positions artificially in a way that is looking to help yourself in the game state.

I;e someone refusing to declare a read on a popular wagon that is imminently going to flip

[SirCakez]

Then stop talking lol
I've already said I don't want to discuss this anymore because nobody's mind is changing and it's just Mush you and I going in circles.

[SirCakez]

Uhhhh I never declared him my top SR or for him to be shot.
It's because it seems to be the only things people want to talk about. Just now I tried to step away from it and again got dragged back into it by Mush and you. I don't want to press this point anymore.

You haven't declared him your top scumread but you've implied that he's your top scumread. If you're arguing otherwise you just really want me to fall to the dark side.

????????????????????????????????????????????

[SirCakez]

I am not making another post about Norfolk until he posts again or something materially changes otherwise
This is a waste of time and other people need to talk

[SirCakez]

I am not making another post about Norfolk until he posts again or something materially changes otherwise
This is a waste of time and other people need to talk

[SirCakez]

Mush I have to say after glancing at that post I think you're playing Mafia at a whole other level then I ever have
I don't think I've ever in over five years of Mafia put that much thought into this game

[SirCakez]

I will get to Imp's thing later I'm just am exhausted of that particular discussion

[SirCakez]

Can I get an outsider opinion on Lotus v Duchess? I can't put a pin in either person's alignment and its really bothering me.

[SirCakez]

Still looking for Duchess v Lotus input

[SirCakez]

Mush
Dunn
Unwnd
Wheme
STT
RLotus
Duchess
N_M
Imperium
Norfolk
Rockhopper

[SirCakez]

Really lacking for townreads here ftr
Like even my top five on my list aren't very strong townreads

[SirCakez]

I actually agree a Norfolk shot is probably not the best option, for reasons Netflix said

[SirCakez]

My dream is an Imperium shot because if they're scum like I think here it will be very difficult to get people to do it

[SirCakez]

My dream is an Imperium shot because if they're scum like I think here it will be very difficult to get people to do it

Dude i left my scum range in the dust a long time ago.

How?

[SirCakez]

My dream is an Imperium shot because if they're scum like I think here it will be very difficult to get people to do it

It will be hard to convince people to shoot us because we would be a solidly horrible shot.

Luckily in this setup I can pew pew you myself if I have to

[SirCakez]

My dream is an Imperium shot because if they're scum like I think here it will be very difficult to get people to do it

It will be hard to convince people to shoot us because we would be a solidly horrible shot.

Also this post is just independently scummy outside of our ongoing discourse

[SirCakez]

If I shoot you and you guys are town then berate me I deserve it in that case ofc
But I'm not feeling that's likely right now

[SirCakez]

I think she is way too brazen to be scum here

[SirCakez]

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

Also c'mon I know you're above insulting me like this as town
Not good AtE

[SirCakez]

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

Also c'mon I know you're above insulting me like this as town
Not good AtE

I'm not a perfect person

Who is?

[SirCakez]

I think she is way too brazen to be scum here

I got the impression Mush was fanning the flames of your 1v1 with Tammy.

I think Mush has her own issues with me unrelated to the Imperium stuff

[SirCakez]

Cakez I feel like the more you convince yourself you're right on Imperium the more it would play into their hand. Like, you're afraid if you're not the one to catch Imperium no one will. I townread you for that amongst other things, but at some point if Imperium is just bigbadscum then other mates would be paying closer attention if they felt Imperium was in trouble, as I'm certain the gun has been waved over their head.

This doesn't absolve anything, but I do think right now they're probably doing other things.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here
I think right now if Imp is scum here they are very worries about me mainly because the setup empowers me even if no one else believes my read

[SirCakez]

And for that matter I don't think anyone else is even close to SRing Imperium because they are good at always being townread
But I saw them really playing up that stuff early on and that's what triggered my SR before it kept strengthening for other reasons

[SirCakez]

So this post
I want to preface this by saying I DO NOT WANT TO RESTART THIS ARGUMENT
However I did say I would respond to it

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

You still have not addressed it. Waiting for specifics and "in the context of the game" is not specifics.

What part of the defense did you dislike in the context of the game? What part of the defense was unreasonable in the context of the game?

I feel you are not getting what I'm saying.
In the content of the initial wall about Norfolk itself, the reasons you use to claim the scumreads are undeserved are fine (although obviously I disagree). I can see the logic and arguments.
My dislike of the wall doesn't come from the reasoning used, but the fence-sitty aspects of it. It doesn't make sense to me to go to the lengths you did in that wall just to declare them as a nullread anyways (as I've said many many times). More than once in the wall you basically go "well that could be town or it could be scum"

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

[SirCakez]

I liked a couple Cakez posts last night, and as we were laying down for bed last night Nacho said he thought cakez might be town after all, and my gut in liking some of his posts is at odds with my brain and the way he's been interacting with me and norfolk.

Cakez - If you are town here, you are super misreading me, misinterpreting and misrepresenting my posts. Misinterpreting me is one thing, but the misrepresentation feels purposeful and it feels like you're throwing the kitchen sink of misreps at me. So, like yesterday when I simplified and clarified the position I took earlier about the people reading norfolk, you called it a backpedal and lie, except I literally just simplified what I had previously stated. I didn't change any position, and it felt like even after pointing that out, you just decided to move the goal posts on me instead of recognizing that you misread or misinterpreted. And that feels scummy to me and completely unlike any way you've ever interacted with me in a game. It feels like what you were doing with Battle Mage in xeno when you were scum.

I literally turned to nacho several times yesterday and asked him if I was the crazy one because I don't think my position and points are that difficult to understand. I do not understand how if you are actually reading my posts in good faith that you are coming to the conclusions you are. I don't care if you suspect me; well I mean I don't particularly like being suspected when I'm town but it goes with the game, but I don't like when it feels super purposeful and it feels that way here. And not gonna lie, there's a part of me that thinks you're doing this to interfere with any influence we might have this game.

This is a reach out. It's not the greatest of reach outs because I don't like feeling misrepresented and then attacked for those misrepresentations nor do I trust your intentions and I'm begrudgingly admitting that even with that you might be town based on a few posts I have liked. But if those few posts are correct and were are both town, this game has a chance to get fucked sideways, and I don't want that. So, if you are town, please consider that you've completely misunderstood me.

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

Also c'mon I know you're above insulting me like this as town
Not good AtE

This is just a little example. This is not AtE, this is not even AtE's little brother. This is nacho trolling you. Even if it isn't him trolling you it's still not AtE.

But why would you think either of us would be above insulting you as town. I mean nacho would probably troll you and say this as scum or town, so it's not really all that alignment indicative for him. But if you thought this was me, why would you think it's more likely to come from scum? That makes absolutely no sense at all. I don't like actual insults and I don't like seeing people insulted, but I'm not perfect and when I get frustrated with people in a mafia game I do sometimes say things out of frustration that aren't very nice, and it's almost always when I'm town. I don't get frustrated in the same way as scum unless I feel personally attacked.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here
I think right now if Imp is scum here they are very worries about me mainly because the setup empowers me even if no one else believes my read

This is one of the posts that I gut liked you for, but woah are you soooooo not understanding anything about me at all. You clearly don't understand my scum game or how I think or feel about scum. I hate playing scum with a passion but I don't get super worried as scum, nor would I be worried about you. That is not a dig at you, I just wouldn't be worried. Even if you had the gun and were going to shoot me, I still wouldn't be worried.

In a world where I'm scum here, I decided to give the gun to the hydra who I believe reads me best in the game. This is an objective truth, and especially in this playerlist. Brain knows that I have respect for his ability to read me; I've talked about it before. I think notscience is also good at reading me, but I think that notty is probably going to be a little paranoid or less certain about reading friends this moment due to tenet and the college normal. So, if I'm scum, I agreed to give the gun to the people I think can read me the best and who is going into this game with probably some hesitation on town reading me in the first place, which means I've already gone into the game knowing that I could end up getting shot first if I'm unable to fool them. So, in this world, you don't concern me at all as I've already made contingency plans for going out first. In this world I've decided to make associatives to fuck with the shots that come after. I, in fact, expect to go out first in every scum game I play because I feel and have always felt super naked and obvious as scum.

In neither that make believe world or this real one am I concerned about you shooting me. You don't have a hero solve, you're just wrong.

I read through this all.
I think you two need to go off and do your own thing and we can move forwards from there.
I appreciate the reach-out but it doesn't alleviate all my concerns.

I will say I don't agree with your point about how you wouldn't give the gun to Netflix and Chill as scum here. If you are worried about a slot being able to catch you, the best time possible to give it to them is at game start, because it gives them the widest possible range of targets to shoot and (like many have said) they will be out of the game fairly early, barring some miracle like three straight scum shots. If you don't give them the gun, there lies the potential for N&C to go to endgame and be able to shoot you when they wouldn't otherwise due to lack of other targets.

[SirCakez]

Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who townreads STT, I'm going to be looking through the lists. I would very much like you to explain yourselves. In great, exhaustive detail. Really beat the hell out of your belief that STT is town, /challenge yourself/, because I will throw down a /solid/ wager that you are wrong. Say, winner gets to control the loser's first shot when they inevitably get the gun (because this is gonna look /real/ bad for whoever is wrong, and they shouldn't trust themselves to hit shit anyway). I'm not joking or exaggerating, STT looks awful here, and you can check Death Curse to see that I'm right. ISO Zdenek, and Ctrl+F "MUSH". Recognize that Zdenek was replaced by Frederick A Campbell, who was our very first scum kill in Death Curse, and opened the door to red flip city. I am putting my bet down, I want anyone who thinks I'm wrong to put their money where their mouth is and/or eat lead.

My TR on STT is not especially strong (nulltown prolly) but I really liked their second post where they explained the tonal oddities that many noticed in their first post. I have a soft spot for people who get scumread for playstyle/posting style and the way they reached out to me as opposed to being defensive felt townie.
Not interested in debating this with you but I thought I'd give you an answer.

[SirCakez]

So, if I'm scum, I agreed to give the gun to the people I think can read me the best and who is going into this game with probably some hesitation on town reading me in the first place, which means I've already gone into the game knowing that I could end up getting shot first if I'm unable to fool them. So, in this world, you don't concern me at all as I've already made contingency plans for going out first. In this world I've decided to make associatives to fuck with the shots that come after. I, in fact, expect to go out first in every scum game I play because I feel and have always felt super naked and obvious as scum.

This seemed to imply that @Tammy.

[SirCakez]

I think Rockhopper is flying way under the radar here.
They put up a lot better stuff in the Micro I played with them then they have here.
Norfolk pointed this out too.

[SirCakez]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

[SirCakez]

If they would stop 1v1ing and join the rest of us that would be helpful.

[SirCakez]

How so Tammy?

[SirCakez]

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

If Imperium is scum, why do they need to look good regardless of the outcome, since they would know the outcome of course?

From our POVs we don't know what's gonna happen. It's ambiguous. If Imperium went too hard either way then it could look like they knew ahead of time. With the ambiguity they can more easily wiggle around with it.

[SirCakez]

How so Tammy?

Because I can’t claim any credit because I didn’t take a stance. If he flips scum, I look like shit for pushing and questioning the scum reads on him. I look like his partner who tried to get somebody else flipped.

If he flips town, I get no credit except from people who’ve misunderstood my point, but since I didn’t actually call him town I look like I’m willing to push there depending on the wind.

This is basically the point I'm making now. But you couldn't have been thinking this at the time of that post.

[SirCakez]

Yeah I’m done this is useless. I don’t even know where the goalposts are anymore. You keep moving them.

For the record, no I wasn’t thinking that at the time because I’m torn and those are my real actual genuine town thoughts.

If I were scum, I absolutely would be thinking about how my posts are coming across. I’m not dumb.

But I’m done.

Ftr I didn't want to continue this argument, you're trying to win something that is unwinnable.
Let's move on.

[SirCakez]

That's win as in "win"
Nobody really wins in arguments like this

[SirCakez]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

I agree, but I don't see it being Lotus.

Wheme, if you had the gun and it was 2 minutes to deadline, who are you busting a cap in?

Can you elaborate on why it's Duchess then?

[SirCakez]

Lotus conftown makes me want to scumbin Duchess
Still reading

[SirCakez]

Frankly Mush' push on STT looks like OMGUS

[SirCakez]

I had a response to STT but I deleted it it's whatever. I'm just going to be content to be completely misunderstood and or misrepped this game. Whatever. Either town is just missing every fucking point I make or scum is just trying to irritate the fuck out of me to tilt me, and you know what HAVE FUN.

STT - Think your paranoia on the meta thing is probably misplaced. I understand that I really do; that kinda thing always makes me think scum in the back of my mind, but after seeing someone be town almost every time that statement is made, I don't think it's really alignment indicative anymore.

Stop playing the victim and move on! Nobody wants to continue this argument but you won't fucking move on.

[SirCakez]

I don’t think I want to shoot Musha either.

Brian and I did discuss shooting Tammycho because it either flips them or gives the gun to two of the players I’d most want to have it

I’m currently wrestling with my stack rank not accounting for me getting the gun and that concerns me a ton.

Do you scum read me? I don't think I'm having a totally off game, but if you're thinking that perhaps I am.

Why are you so worried about Netflix and Chill SRing you? (I know they are dead now)
When they brought up potentially shooting you earlier you got worried too.

[SirCakez]

Who do you think I want to shoot?

not_mafia or unwnd?

I really don't know who you want to shoot lol

Not mafia is such a weak shot suggestion
And I'm pretty sure unwnd is not SRed by anyone
(Don't respond to this this is just thoughts as I'm reading)

[SirCakez]

Jesus there are five scum???
I've been operating on assumption of three the whole time
Don't fucking call this a townslip thats not the point of this post
I need to reeval things with that in mind

[SirCakez]

I am notoriously bad at retaining setup information ftr

[SirCakez]

I don't want to talk to Imperium anymore we are going in circles and it's such a fucking waste of time.

[SirCakez]

I do want Rockhopper to post or get yeeted by replacement

[SirCakez]

No we should shoot duchess or cakez or not mafia.

If Norfolk is scum then this is probably scum

[SirCakez]

Also, I remember a few people expressing that rtlotus/duchess were both unreadable because they were only talking to each other, and that they were hard reads etc. Not sure what to make of that

I was one of them
I hope Duchess will actually say something useful now

[SirCakez]

I do want Rockhopper to post or get yeeted by replacement

why

This seems blatantly obvious
The slot is useless and reads on it are stale

[SirCakez]

Wheme, as far as I know /no one/ scumread Lotus? What is your deal, guy? I literally said /no one had hard reads on Lotus/. Stop the bullshit immediately, you will not get me tangled in my own words like you're trying to do.

HEY MAYBE THATS WHY IT WAS AN AWFUL SHOT

Actually I think Wheme just might be scum regardless of Norfolk

[SirCakez]

What did I do to get ire?

I'm not plunging the town into chaos, norfolk really needs to die here, pretty much everyone is scumreadng them or nullreading them, they might even be the godfather at this point but it's still worth shooting there honestly

I am right about at this point
The slot will be a flashpoint and a huge question mark for the rest of the game
It has to go and sooner is better then later because I think we can develop a lot of reads off of it
Lotus flip did not really help me with my reads other than Duchess obviously

[SirCakez]

What did I do to get ire?

I'm not plunging the town into chaos,

norfolk really needs to die here, pretty much everyone is scumreadng them or nullreading them,

they might even be the godfather at this point but it's still worth shooting there honestly

Where was your input before RLotus was given the gun? My problem right now does not stem from reacting to the shot, rather the conclusions immediately drawn from them. Even if it's my own perspective, with a greenflip this early on I find myself not going into 'yeah shoot this guy next immediately woot woot just fire em off' I'd consider reeling it back in and determining where we apparently went wrong, yet you're already insistent on saying nonsense like Me+Imperium goading Netflix. I don't really understand where you got this point and you yourself have already agreed that scum probably didn't want anything to do with the shot. So...why are you suddenly so anxious?

I mean - Lotus shot was a pivot away from the Norfolk shot. Lotus flipping town makes me think we need to go back towards Norfolk.

[SirCakez]

There is no way mush is town here.

Why?

Way to arrogant. Too much "putting words in my mouth" trying to act like they are mis repped when they arent.

Mush did this to me too and I think it's just playstyle/her thought process, after reading her explanation.

[SirCakez]

MUSHSHAGANA

unwnd
Dunnstral
ScrewTheTells

Imperium

Not_Mafia
Rockhopper

Norfolk Boy1
SirCakez
WhemeStar
RLotus

Hmmm
Two town in her bottom scum pool

[SirCakez]

I think I have scum moles in my townreads
And I want to dig them out

[SirCakez]

finally some good fucking food

[SirCakez]

okay give me the gun, tammy dies next for that sass

This is scum banter

This might be the first time ever I agree with Not Mafia. Wow.

anyone who's here, give me your top shot picks, any number of names, no context

Imp, Norfolk, you, Duchess

[SirCakez]

Not loving the Peta entrance

[SirCakez]

This might be the first time ever I agree with Not Mafia. Wow.

which should be a hint that you're messing up somewhere

Why?

[SirCakez]

I appreciate Peta's input if he's town here and definitely don't think he should be shot anytime soon
So I'll stop shading there

[SirCakez]

Duchess has completely flaked since Lotus flipped
/thonk

[SirCakez]

This might be the first time ever I agree with Not Mafia. Wow.

which should be a hint that you're messing up somewhere

Why?

the joke


your head

[SirCakez]

I think STT's push of Mush is pretty accurate and not at all based in misrep
I just don't think that Mush is scum for what STT is calling out because Mush seems to have an extraordinarily unique playstyle

[SirCakez]

I saw the same thing STT did re Mush omgus

[SirCakez]

I can't help but feel Imperium now strongly townreading me is a reaction to them pushing back on me as scum not working

[SirCakez]

Imperium did mention having seen Cakez act similarly as town before, so they might be writing it off as stubbornness, but I don't see how you can completely alter the very foundation of an argument and keep pushing it without even a pause or an acknowledgment that a different road is being explored. I understand how you can see that as stubborn town, or a personality trait (bullheaded, simply refusing to admit when wrong), but it reads to me as if losing the argument has much more significance in Cakez' mind than simply letting a scumread loose, if you catch my drift. The fact too that Cakez, if I am recalling correctly, reignited the argument several times, leads me to believe he may see it as an inevitable 1v1.

I am bringing up additional things I find scummy in new Imperium post
I just don't want to go back to the endless semantics argument we were having about Imp's Norfolk defense

[SirCakez]

I am not interested in having that argument anymore so I don't see the point in responding to 1035

[SirCakez]

I will say I think Duchess drafting up this old argument between Imp and me and developing an "extremely confident" scumread after just having a mega fail on their Lotus read seems very unnatural

[SirCakez]

Like Duchess has been shading me all game but as soon as Lotus flips they pull out this giant wall to move on to another target as soon as they make their return to the game. I would find this movement scummy even if it wasn't on me.

[SirCakez]

Ftr I was suspicious of Rock not for his inactivity but because his four posts were terrible.

[SirCakez]

I will say I think Duchess drafting up this old argument between Imp and me and developing an "extremely confident" scumread after just having a mega fail on their Lotus read seems very unnatural

Should I slink away and give up on scumhunting after just one wrong read then? What is unnatural about it? What does a natural progression look like to you in this case? Did you want me to bumble around aimlessly for a bit before continuing to play the game?

You seem extremely confident for someone who just completely missed on another read you were very confident on
I'd expect you to take a step back and reevaluate because obviously you were off-track
Instead you just moved on to the next SR in your old pool.

[SirCakez]

Ftr I was suspicious of Rock not for his inactivity but because his four posts were terrible.

I don't think lurker scum does something like placing 4 naked votes.

er, why not?

I just don't think lurker scum wants to bring attention to themselves they just want to lurk. Placing 4 naked votes is bringing attention to yourself.

anyone claiming any read at all off those posts is highly suspect

I will say I think Duchess drafting up this old argument between Imp and me and developing an "extremely confident" scumread after just having a mega fail on their Lotus read seems very unnatural

Should I slink away and give up on scumhunting after just one wrong read then? What is unnatural about it? What does a natural progression look like to you in this case? Did you want me to bumble around aimlessly for a bit before continuing to play the game?

You seem extremely confident for someone who just completely missed on another read you were very confident on
I'd expect you to take a step back and reevaluate because obviously you were off-track
Instead you just moved on to the next SR in your old pool.

why does someone being wrong on one read mean their other reads have to be wrong? this isn't good logic

For the first thing - why?
For the second - that's not what I said...

[SirCakez]

I'm willing to back off Imperium for the moment but I keep getting scum pings from them and I am extremely paranoid about the tactics they have used to approach me

[SirCakez]

For the first thing - why?
For the second - that's not what I said...

1. because those posts were effectively nothing, claiming to have a read off them feels more
2. your argument is that duchess coming back in after one of their reads was wrong and pushing confidently on a secondary read is scummy, because it's unnatural or w/e, and you mentione reevaluating, with the obvious implication that they shouldn't be continuing to scumread you, but that's just not logical at all

1. Ok
2. That's not what I said. Reevaluation doesn't mean having to change your reads but it does mean going and looking "ok where did I go wrong SRing Lotus"

I think Rockhopper is flying way under the radar here.
They put up a lot better stuff in the Micro I played with them then they have here.
Norfolk pointed this out too.

what game was this, because the only completed micro of his i see is a scumgame where he posted plenty, although it looks like his posting style is pretty minimal as either alignment, and he's flaked from a game as town before after doing very little (i hate that i am doing meta on a player whose alignment i know, but i can't let this go)

Ok this was a total brainfart for some reason I remember he was town there
Scratch my meta

[SirCakez]

My stack has not changed much as I TRed lotus
Move Peta up some (rock was at the bottom before)
Move Duchess down to my bottom three

[SirCakez]

Duchess - Thank you. I know other people understand my argument and where I was coming from, but the way Cakez has approached this interaction has literally left me feeling like a crazy person because of how much he has misrepresented, misunderstood and changed the argument. (STT claims to understand but they'd not be making the point they were making if they actually understood, but it's whatever.) Anyway, regardless of your alignment, I appreciate it. Nacho has pointed out before that being understood is something that is really important to me; I'm not really concerned about being right, but I do want to be understood.

What do you think of Mush's deconstruction of Duchess's case?

[SirCakez]

Not mafia has sunk in my reads a lot
I think he's a pretty good shot for hitting scum but not a good shot for opening up the gamestate

[SirCakez]

He is reminding me a lot of Doubles Mafia

[SirCakez]

@STT Not maf is always a shit poster he never evolves
You have to look at the little content he puts out and go from there
Also look at game state - if he's not being talked about much (like in this game) he is more likely scum. That is what happened in Doubles Mafia.

[SirCakez]

I think cakez/duchess is scum

No we should shoot duchess or cakez or not mafia.

PETA solidified my townlean on rock

Shoot duchess

PETA solidified my townlean on rock

Shoot duchess

you don't think i'm onto anything wrt STT?
because i wanna shoot that hydra real bad.

I don’t really care currently I would rather see duchess shot right now.

duchess stt scum

Amazing insight Wheme, tell me one I haven't heard before.

Nice call out
I didn't realize When's posting had gotten so atrocious
Complacent scum? This could be the mole in my TRs

[SirCakez]

Duchess - Thank you. I know other people understand my argument and where I was coming from, but the way Cakez has approached this interaction has literally left me feeling like a crazy person because of how much he has misrepresented, misunderstood and changed the argument. (STT claims to understand but they'd not be making the point they were making if they actually understood, but it's whatever.) Anyway, regardless of your alignment, I appreciate it. Nacho has pointed out before that being understood is something that is really important to me; I'm not really concerned about being right, but I do want to be understood.

What do you think of Mush's deconstruction of Duchess's case?

Both of us agreed with some points, didn't agree with a couple. I only skimmed it though, and it's something I'll probably come back to tomorrow. Gonna finish responding to Peta here and then I've got to get some grading done.

I'm thanking Duchess there because I think she's right and you're scum, or because I think she's town. I'm thanking her because I feel understood.

I understand the thank you - I was just curious because you praised the case but then Mush shot it down later

[SirCakez]

Another reason not to shoot NM - we probably just lose if he's town lmao

[SirCakez]

Other then Mush I like your stack a lot STT

[SirCakez]

I was lying in bed thinking about this game and realized if Duchess is scum trying to get me shot then Imperium is actually fairly likely town and scum want me to shoot them to end the game...

[SirCakez]

Is there a particular reason why you think being wrong about Lotus should affect my read of you? What ties you two together?

I never said this
I meant reevaluation in general

[SirCakez]

Why would scum be trying to get you to shoot someone will shoot town, as opposed to the GF?

[SirCakez]

Why wouldn't, rather

[SirCakez]

To be transparent - I don't think I have played with Imperium as scum before (or if I have I don't remember it)
I am not using meta at all here

[SirCakez]

Maybe there are no TvT dichotomies atm? Idk, it would make sense for them to do that as well.

Fair
It's just on my mind because of that epiphany I had in bed this morning

[SirCakez]

Unwnd will you be mad if I tell you I'm getting paranoid you're trying to pocket me here

[SirCakez]

No, but I would wonder why you believe that

Because I just find it odd how much you're defending me when you usually suspect me if anything

and it also occurred to me that, tactically, OMGUSing cakez is a terrible move in the world where imperium is scum and cakez is town because it gets them nowhere. like, if they're scum their goal here is to endgame and cakez is basically the only one likely to shoot them so they'd have to discourage a cakez shot, at least right now, and from that perspective, the whole read there starts looking very political and ingenuine, and they're one of maybe a couple people in this game i'd expect to be thinking that way about who they call to get shot

This thought occurred to me earlier when I made my post about Imperium switching tactics

i find it odd that like no one was talking about n_m until i replaced in and then i say he has a strong chance to be scum and there was this flurry of posts about him a few pages later

tbh I forgot about him

[SirCakez]

Because I just find it odd how much you're defending me when you usually suspect me if anything

I don't feel this is true?

Xeno 2 I tried to give you a life raft (incorrectly)
Fake Peoples I townread you (correctly)
And then some other games not worth talking about

fair enough

[SirCakez]

Mush and Peta should walk it off and move on

[SirCakez]

5 of you are town and 5 of you are scum

Cakez Tammycho unwnd RLotus MUSH (VACANT)

--Null void--
Peta
STT
N_M
--Null void--

Duchess Dunnstral Whemestar Norfolk (VACANT)

What I'm wokring with right now form a pure PoE standpoint

This is such a lazy scum team and makes me think you are scum

Not really I actually think he's pretty close

[SirCakez]

I'm pretty much ready to shoot tbh, I keep coming back to the same scumreads. I'll dump all my thoughts first.

This is Nacho head. Pretty confident that the scumteam is Norfolk-Not_Mafia-Whemestar-petapan-Duchess with Dunn as a possible but not really likely sub for Duchess.

I have to wake up in a little over 4 hours so I can get to work on 5AM CST. I will be at work until 3 PM. Please just give me the opportunity to explain why I think that's the solve and then you can guns away shoot whoever the hell you want, I just want to get one readslist out there.

Hmm we have many SRs in common...

[SirCakez]

Lotus before you shoot I think it might be a good idea if you say who so people can voice any last thoughts

Because I think Netflix shooting you has shown itself to be a mistake for the game long term and we might have avoided that if they had something and not just YOLOed it out

[SirCakez]

if they had said something*

[SirCakez]

I am at the point with you where I will not be shooting you immediately if I get the gun
But I don't ever think I won't be paranoid of you this game and depending on further flips you might go right back under the gun

[SirCakez]

Lotus before you shoot I think it might be a good idea if you say who so people can voice any last thoughts

Because I think Netflix shooting you has shown itself to be a mistake for the game long term and we might have avoided that if they had something and not just YOLOed it out

Surprise I'm going to shoot Duchess

I'm quite happy with that
I can't get off how Duchess immediately began attacking me it just didn't seem like a town thought progression at all

It's clear to me that the scumteam went into bus Duchess mode because of the wave of momentum Duchess scum reads were getting.

And, the fact that everyone was heavy handed on Norfolk and saying virtually nothing about NM is a sign that he is mafia too.

I kept getting stuck on SirCakez being mafia given how suddenly he started scumreading Duchess, it looked like they were trying to distance from each other. But I guess WhemeStar and Norfolk make more sense, because WhemeStar, Duchess, and NM all expressed scumreads on Cakez. Cakez is the proverbial line in the sand, I suppose.

I feel kind of bad being served a 5 piece on a platter by Nacho. Part of me wants to give him the gun, but that seems reckless.

I think the wave of Duchess SRs happened because they spent all Day 1 1v1ing Lotus and then Lotus flipped town

[SirCakez]

RLotus. Why do you think I would have pushed so hard for your shot on Day 1 if I didn't think you would have been killed? You've made it quite obvious for most of the game that you will shoot me, and don't take this the wrong way, but you strike me as a stubborn person. I will admit I was nervous about how to approach you this game day compared to the first when I expected you to shoot me almost immediately, which would have put a potentially game-losing shot into my hands in a time when I didn't quite have my full bearings. At this point, my shot is far from set in stone but I at least feel better about my understanding of the gamestate. But I urge you to reconsider before putting us in a sudden death situation.

This reads like scum inducing fear to avoid getting shot

[SirCakez]

Nah I think Duchess red makes Imperium red more likely
This Peta push seems like trying to stir up the gamestate to get away from the common shot suggestions

[SirCakez]

I'm quite happy with that
I can't get off how Duchess immediately began attacking me it just didn't seem like a town thought progression at all

They had precedence to do that thought, they tried to call you scummy day 1. Your attack on them is where I see a lack of progression.

meh I don't want to go back through this I've already said my thoughts on this
I said more than once that I couldn't read Duchess v Lotus day 1 so Lotus town flip made it way easier to sort Duchess

[SirCakez]

I'm quite happy with that
I can't get off how Duchess immediately began attacking me it just didn't seem like a town thought progression at all

They had precedence to do that thought, they tried to call you scummy day 1. Your attack on them is where I see a lack of progression.

meh I don't want to go back through this I've already said my thoughts on this
I said more than once that I couldn't read Duchess v Lotus day 1 so Lotus town flip made it way easier to sort Duchess

Why couldn't it have been TvT?

Because of how Duchess progressed into day two
They seem to just want to be stuck in 1v1s and avoid other conflicts

[SirCakez]

I think the wave of Duchess SRs happened because they spent all Day 1 1v1ing Lotus and then Lotus flipped town

I hope you can see the disconnect between this sentence and the rest of your stance right now.

this doesn't make any sense

[SirCakez]

I mean yeah theoretically that could be it
That's just not what I think because I TR the people who want you dead for the most part

[SirCakez]

SirCakez, I just noticed you keep saying you like other people's scum-lists. #1:

Other then Mush I like your stack a lot STT

The stack referred to here is:

Town to scum:

petapan
SirCakez
Dunnstral
unwnd
WhemeStar
Duchess
Imperium
MUSHSHAGANA
Norfolk Boy1
Not_Mafia

#2:

[...snipped...]Duchess Dunnstral Whemestar Norfolk (VACANT)[...]

This is such a lazy scum team and makes me think you are scum

Not really I actually think he's pretty close

#3:

This is Nacho head. Pretty confident that the scumteam is Norfolk-Not_Mafia-Whemestar-petapan-Duchess with Dunn as a possible but not really likely sub for Duchess.[...]

Hmm we have many SRs in common...

The only names those 3 lists all have in common are Norfolk and Duchess. (I'm assuming you put the cut off point at 5 scum in my stack, which is fair). I just feel like it's weird if you think that needs pointing out; everyone and their grandmas are all scum-reading them.

I also have Imp NM and Wheme low

[SirCakez]

I believed to be the gf based on his antagonistic play

I'm just curious about this because I intentionally try not to play antagonistically. It kind of ended up happening this game anyways because Imperium kept yelling at me but what makes you think this otherwise?

[SirCakez]

Man I think NM is town I am agreeing with him a lot.

Can you elaborate on this because I don't think anyone else TRs N_M

[SirCakez]

@STT Not maf is always a shit poster he never evolves
You have to look at the little content he puts out and go from there
Also look at game state - if he's not being talked about much (like in this game) he is more likely scum. That is what happened in Doubles Mafia.

[SirCakez]

I didn't WANT to restart the fight per se but when I see scummy things I like to call them out and then Imperium always felt the need to rebut everything and that just fired things back up.

[SirCakez]

I just quoted it on the last page

[SirCakez]

I just quoted it on the last page

I asked for logical.

It's also noteworthy that you'd try to push this more at this point. My theory is that this is an attempt to take the shot off of your buddy Duchess.

I think that you've tried to distance from each other by working Imperium from different angles. Duchess has tried to be pally and pocket, you've gone for good old fashioned scumcalling.

Post 1298 is trying to set up Imperium after Duchess is shot.

It's not working so you've gone after Not Mafia.

Reco firming my belief that Imperium and Not Mafia = town. Cakez and Duchess = scum.

Wtf are you talking about Duchess has been my top shot request all day

[SirCakez]

That Norfolk post is just completely ignorant of my progression

[SirCakez]

imperium you're doing it again

[SirCakez]

cakez if i play with you in the near future, which i'm pretty convinced i'm not going to do, when I don't interact with you at all. This is why.

ok i'm sorry you feel that way

[SirCakez]

i'm kinda just done with 1v1s and want the shot to happen

[SirCakez]

STT I thought I already said this but I was looking at bottom five for people in common and most had (Wheme, duchess, nm, imperium)

[SirCakez]

And Norfolk

[SirCakez]

honestly I feel like we are spinning our wheels this game
Lotus just needs to take the shot we can only talk so much before we need flips

[SirCakez]

Imperium's AtE towards me has gotten so strong that I honestly wonder if they would be pulling this as scum

[SirCakez]

and I don't remember feeling this way in Flying Scumsman way back when about them

[SirCakez]

also I still think it's so fucking shady that Norfolk tried to pile me in as scum with Duchess when I've wanted Duchess shot all day
That was a huge misrep

[SirCakez]

ow, yeah. WIFOM applies. I'm not saying the world being posited is IMPOSSIBLE. I'm more just saying that I don't see many other /solid/ arguments for the non-Duchess slots being actually scum (so far it's been all "lurkers suck" and "bad reads"), and that it's an awfully huge gamble for the scumteam to make no matter WHAT their perception of the game state and their goal was. And that makes me think that something is wrong, that there is active misdirection going on.

this is such a good point and it reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day
It just feels like scum are in control of this game in some manner
I don't know where exactly to ascribe this feeling to. It probably means my townreads are still off.

[SirCakez]

It just feels to comical at this point.

What is this in reference to?

[SirCakez]

Imperium's AtE towards me has gotten so strong that I honestly wonder if they would be pulling this as scum

What is Imperium doing locking themselves into all these 1v1s then?

From their posting it feels like they just really really dislike being scumread and want people to listen to them and it's not happening so they are getting frustrated and picking fights

[SirCakez]

Well I wasn't expecting Duchess to be GF but I can't say I'm mad with these results

[SirCakez]

Looks like scum want Peta or myself shot and they want Mush gone because she is universal townread very interesting

[SirCakez]

Duchess scum flip makes me very happy with my scum pool of (Norfolk, wheme, nm, imperium) still
But I suspect there is scum elsewhere still

[SirCakez]

I do think Imperium looks worse now with Duchess scum flip considering they went so all in on trying to get Peta shot